November 11, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode, Dr. Konstantin Batygin, a distinguished planetary scientist and professor at Caltech, delves into the latest advancements in fusion energy, the potential of the upcoming Vera Rubin Observatory in discovering Planet X, and the transformative role of artificial intelligence and quantum computing in scientific research. He also shares insights into his ongoing research on Jupiter's formation and his musical endeavors with The Seventh Season, a Los Angeles-based rock band. This episode offers a unique blend of cutting-edge science and personal passion, providing listeners with an engaging and informative experience.
https://www.konstantinbatygin.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/konstantin-batygin-38639415/
https://theseventhseason.band/
In today's episode, we delve into several captivating topics:
- Planet X and Telescope Developments: Konstantin discusses the upcoming Vera Rubin Observatory, set to become operational by 2025, and its potential role in discovering Planet X.
- Differences Between JWST and Vera Rubin Observatory: We explore the distinctions between the James Webb Space Telescope, optimized for close observations and spectrum analysis, and the Vera Rubin Observatory, designed for wide-field searches.
- Fusion and Material Science Links: Konstantin explains how particle accelerators are utilized in fusion and material science, particularly in isotope production, and touches on advancements like Accelerator Driven Systems (ADS) and accelerator-driven fusion for material innovations.
- Muon Catalyzed Fusion: We delve into the concept of muons as heavy particles that could theoretically drive fusion reactions, discussing their limitations due to short lifespans and decay tendencies.
- Cold Fusion and Superconductors: The potential for future cold fusion generators is examined, including the need for advancements in superconductors and material science.
- AI’s Role in Fusion and Multi-dimensional Calculations: Konstantin highlights AI's potential to handle complex simulations and optimize fusion reactor stability, especially with quantum computing's capability to manage multi-dimensional calculations.
- Quantum Computing: We discuss the journey from theoretical quantum mechanics to practical quantum computing and how its unique data handling through qubits could enhance complex simulations in fusion.
- Historical Perspective on Scientific Progress: Konstantin provides insights into historical breakthroughs, such as the delay between early quantum theories and quantum computing, and examples of significant inventions like Fourier Transforms.
- Research on Jupiter's Formation: We explore Konstantin's ongoing research into Jupiter’s primordial state, using the orbital dynamics of its moons to infer conditions billions of years ago.
- Excitement for the Future of Fusion and Astronomy: The episode concludes with a discussion on the potential impact of next-generation telescopes and fusion technology in the near future.
Join us as we explore these fascinating subjects and more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the 2024 season ending episode of the Kronos Fusion Energy Podcast.
(00:16):
As we conclude this 2024 season, we reflect on a year filled with insightful discussions
and groundbreaking advancements in fusion technology.
Our journey has taken us through the intricacies of plasma physics, the development of superconducting
magnets and the exploration of sustainable energy solutions.
(00:39):
We've had the privilege of engaging with leading experts who are at the forefront of reshaping
our energy landscape, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the
challenges and triumphs in the pursuit of clean limitless fusion power.
I am deeply grateful to my co-founders and our founding board advisors for their unwavering
(01:01):
dedication and the wealth of experience they bring to Kronos Fusion Energy.
Each of them is a colossus in their field and I feel incredibly humbled to work alongside
such an exceptional group of individuals every day.
Their collective expertise and passion are the driving forces behind our mission to revolutionize
(01:21):
the energy sector.
Today I'm thrilled to welcome my co-founder, Dr. Konstantin Batygin.
Our journey began at the Athenaeum at Caltech, where an electrifying conversation about the
future of fusion energy laid the groundwork for our collaboration.
(01:42):
Since our inception in 2022, Konstantin's profound experience in universal mechanics
and advanced mathematics has been instrumental in advancing our mission here to create a
mini sun on Earth.
Dr. Batygin is a renowned professor of planetary science at Caltech.
(02:03):
He's celebrated for his pioneering work in planetary astrophysics.
His research encompasses the formation and evolution of the solar system, the dynamic
behavior of exoplanets, and the intricate processes within planetary interiors and atmospheres.
Notably, he has been honored with the prestigious Sloan Research Fellowship and was named a
(02:26):
Packard Fellow, underscoring his significant contributions to the field.
In today's episode, we embark on a journey through the frontiers of astronomy and fusion
energy.
Dr. Batygin shares insights into the upcoming Vera Rubin Observatory, set to become operational
by the end of 2025, and its potential role in discovering Planet Nine.
(02:52):
We also explore the distinctions between the James Webb Space Telescope, optimized for
close observations and spectrum analysis, and the Vera Rubin Observatory, which is designed
for wide field searches.
Additionally, we dwell into the utilization of particle accelerators in fusion and material
(03:13):
science, particularly in isotope production.
We discuss the advancements like part accelerator-driven systems and accelerator-driven fusion for
material innovations.
Our conversation extends to the theoretical concept of muon-catalyzed fusion, examining
(03:33):
the potential of muons to drive fusion reactions and the challenges posed by their short lifespans
and decay tendencies.
We also consider the prospects of future cold fusion generators, emphasizing the necessity
for advancements in superconductors in material science.
(03:53):
Dr. Batygin highlights the transformative role of artificial intelligence in managing
complex simulations and optimizing fusion reactor stability, especially with quantum
computing's capability to handle multidimensional calculations.
We reflect on the evolution from theoretical quantum mechanics to practical quantum computing,
(04:17):
discussing how qubits can enhance complex simulations in fusion energy.
We also get into his ongoing research on Jupiter's primordial state, using the orbital dynamics
of its moon to infer conditions billions of years ago.
The episode concludes with an exploration of the potential impact of the next generation
(04:40):
telescopes and fusion technology in the near future.
The way he sees it, at the end of the day, all the physics, fusion energy, and math are
a big ruse to further his music career.
So don't forget to check out the seventh season, where Constantine is the lead vocalist
and guitarist.
The seventh season is a Los Angeles-based rock band.
(05:04):
Their powerful vocals, electrifying guitars, solid bass lines, and dynamic drumming creates
a magnetic sound that has captivated audiences across the globe.
So don't forget to check out the seventh season's latest releases and experience their captivating
performances.
I am Priyanka Ford, the founder of Chronos Fusion Energy, Inc.
(05:27):
Here's my co-founder from week one at Chronos, Constantine Bachijan.
Good start.
Yeah, it's going good.
How are you doing, Constantine?
Listen, I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
Science is coming along.
You know, the spooky weather is here.
(05:49):
So my favorite time of the year.
Halloween's my favorite thing ever.
Yeah, yeah.
I like the time of the year.
Yeah, the whole changing of the weather.
It's beautiful.
Have we found that planet yet?
Planet X?
Have we found that yet?
The night is young and full of terrors.
(06:12):
We haven't found it yet because I think most people have stopped actually searching in
the last year or so.
And that's because there's a new telescope coming online next year that's going to kind
of eat everybody's lunch, so to speak.
When LST, which is also known as the Vera Rubin Observatory, starts operations and that's
(06:33):
scheduled for, like science operations are scheduled for summer of 2025, it will scan
the sky up and down kind of every night.
So it won't scan the entire sky, of course, because it's in the southern hemisphere and
parts of the northern sky are unavailable to it.
(06:54):
But it's going to get a lot of stuff.
And that's going to be really a revolutionary point for all outer solar system research.
And yeah, I think that telescope has the best chance of finding Planet Nine and if not,
it will at the very least kind of independently confirm or refute for that matter the various
(07:19):
lines of evidence that we have for it.
This is better than the JWST or just different better?
It's different.
Yeah.
So JWST is an infrared telescope, which is designed basically for characterization.
So you can look at one thing with exceptional precision and take its spectrum.
(07:44):
That's what JWST is good for.
The Vera Rubin Observatory is an optical telescope and it's ground based and it has a huge field
of view.
So it's kind of a, it's more of a search instrument rather than a characterization instrument.
So yeah, you don't want to be searching for your target with like a sniper rifle, right?
(08:07):
You want to be searching with something with a larger field of view like binoculars, but
then you want to characterize it with something like JWST.
So once we find Planet Nine, we'll definitely look at it with JWST to figure out what its
atmosphere is made out of and if it has a surface, that kind of thing.
(08:28):
Nice.
And you have, the only reason you can use this sniper scope is because you've mathematically
done the calculation to figure that point out.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of the only reason there's motivation, I would say, to look for the planet
(08:51):
in the outer solar system in the first place is because, like you said, the mathematics
points to the existence of a planet in the outer solar system.
I mean, the solar system at this point, its structure makes no sense if there isn't something
(09:11):
out there shepherding the small objects' gravitation.
Do you mind explaining that?
That's fascinating.
So where is it actually pulling on the entire solar system, on our outer planets?
How big is it?
How much is it pulling?
(09:32):
Okay.
So this is a, I'm glad you asked this because I think I have something like an explanation.
So the calculations point to a planet that's about five Earth masses, okay, and that goes
around the sun once every 10 or 20,000 years and does so on an appreciably eccentric orbit.
(09:59):
So an orbit that's kind of elliptical and out and round, right?
So does it pull on everything?
Sure, it does.
But its effects are amplified the further out you go away from the sun.
So for example, if you were to say, what effect would it have on the Earth's orbit?
(10:21):
The answer is it shifts the Earth's location by about one meter compared to, I don't know,
it's not there.
So that's a genuinely pathetic effect, right?
Like changing the location of the Earth by three feet just doesn't matter.
But if you go out beyond the orbit of Neptune, right, so to scale Neptune's at 30 times the
(10:46):
distance between the Earth and the sun, and if you go another order of magnitude out for
things that are 300 astronomical units and beyond, there you really get to see this planet
kind of pulling all the orbits into a common direction, lifting their orbital plane by
(11:07):
about 20 degrees relative to the plane of the solar system.
And so you can kind of see almost this floral arrangement, or maybe it's a gravitational
arrangement of orbits that are well beyond Neptune that require some form of sculpting
by an exterior agent.
(11:29):
And we know that that exterior agent cannot be the galaxy.
We know it cannot be the Oort cloud.
And in fact, the place where you have to put the perturbor is kind of in that intermediate
part of real estate between the conventional solar system and what we call the Oort cloud,
(11:52):
so the edge of the interstellar space.
So yeah, it's an exciting time to be working on this stuff.
We know the gravitational effects of the Oort cloud.
Yeah, we do.
It's significant.
(12:12):
I thought it was just like a mist or just kind of like Saturn's rings where it was like
a bunch of rocks, but it has a cohesive effect.
Does it have more of a pull on certain parts of it and less than others based on the mass?
What am I asking?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:33):
So the Oort cloud in total is about is sort of a few Earth masses.
So it's not, it is composed of, you know, comets basically.
But cumulatively, it's not as negligible as Saturn's rings.
Like Saturn's rings don't have any mass.
(12:53):
The only reason they look cool is because they're reflective and they really don't
weigh very much.
So we do know the gravitational effect of the Oort cloud and it turns out to be pretty
negligible.
Right?
And that's why you need something else.
(13:14):
You can compute what the Oort cloud cumulatively will do and it would sort of change outer
solar system orbits on a time scale of like 10 billion years.
So something comparable to the age of the universe.
But the solar system is only five billion years old.
So even at best, the Oort cloud just does not compete.
(13:38):
And that's why there has to be this other thing.
And the word cloud, I think, kind of throws you off, makes you think it's like, yeah.
And usually astrophysics is so good about getting the name so spot on.
It's a halo of debris or planetesimals or comets.
(14:03):
Right.
How cool.
That's so awesome.
I think the fact that this is your job is so spectacular or part of your job, I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, I still kind of get surprised that I get paid.
You know, like, yeah, it was kind of one of these things where I feel really fortunate
(14:25):
in a multifaceted sense of working on things I love and being able to, you know, do that
and kind of survive.
Like, that's the dream.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, I get that.
That's how I feel every day.
I'm like, haha, I'd have done this for free.
(14:46):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Did you want, is this what you wanted to do as a child?
What did you want to be as a child?
Oh, as a child, I was pretty sure that I was going to be a particle accelerator physicist.
Like that.
Yeah, that sounds kind of specific.
(15:06):
But part of the reason for that is, as a kid, you know, we, like, I grew up on campus of
a facility with a particle accelerator.
And I think, you know, it's one of these things where you kind of, you do the thing that,
or at least as a kid, you think you want to do the thing that you are exposed to.
(15:28):
And because there was a particle accelerator, a lot of people I knew were physicists or
kids of physicists, I was like, well, I guess that's kind of like what you have to become
when you grow up.
And then I later realized that you don't have to become a particle accelerator physicist.
And in fact, that's kind of a niche thing.
(15:49):
And so, you know, the thing that I was going to do is be a professional musician.
And you know, our band is going to become the next Metallica.
And I think we're about, you know, three or four shows away from that happening right
now.
I feel it.
Yeah, I feel it.
I've heard it and I feel it.
I'm right there with you.
Yeah, it's got to, you know, that's right.
(16:10):
David Spitz is about to be dethroned.
Poor Planet Nine.
It will have to wait just a little longer.
Yeah.
Oh, particle accelerator.
Yeah.
You know, I run into people when we talk about fusion, people talk about, oh, you know, they
(16:43):
ask what type of fusion and whether we are what we're going after.
And what they're really asking is, are we using fusion for electricity?
Are we using it for heat?
Or are we using it for like material development?
So I, it took me a while to kind of build that bridge between particle accelerators
(17:06):
and fusion and material development.
But I feel like you built that bridge like decades ago.
Like, can you help us like with how fusion and particle accelerators and new material
or isotope development, like how it comes together?
Yeah, so there's really a multitude of ways, but the first two that come to mind immediately.
(17:34):
So let's talk first about, you know, production of lithium, right?
Like lithium seven is a good way to make tritium, right?
You irradiate lithium seven with a high intensity beam of protons.
And you know, then, and then it decays into helium and tritium.
(18:05):
And so that for a long time was kind of viewed as the most viable mechanism to source tritium.
And it's still, you know, very much up in the kind of community.
Like that's still something that is consistently discussed.
(18:29):
And you know, fusion aside, you know, when it comes to fission, right, like the byproducts
of nuclear fission can be made also less radioactive by irradiating them with a high intensity
beam of charged particles.
And that's because you basically peel off the isotopes of, I would say, uranium that
(18:55):
are still radioactive.
And so those systems are called ADS, system accelerator driven system.
Now there's also a distinct approach to fusion, right, which actually uses particle beams
to collide them and drive fusion that way.
(19:17):
So rather than, you know, doing like the usual thing in a telcomap where you just crank up
the temperature to the point where you try to have tritium and deuterium today or, you
know, helium three or helium three come in and just cross the kind of, you cool a barrier
(19:40):
and combine just because the temperature is so high.
The accelerator driven fusion is distinct in that you first accelerate the particles
or whatever particles you want.
I mean, typically it's heavy ions and then have those collide at a fast enough energy.
So it's just a different approach.
(20:00):
But yeah, the two things have, the two kind of fields of development, right, both the
accelerator science and just plasma physics in general, of course, which is so critically
relevant for fusion have always gone hand in hand and they've always kind of developed
together.
(20:20):
So there's a lot of cross-pollination between the two ideas.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
I remember the first time we met in person at Caltech, you explained a nuance to me and
how you could produce those in particle accelerators and somehow put them into a tokamak to make
(20:44):
fusion better.
Yeah, I would love.
I would love another explanation of that one because I kind of found it fascinating.
(21:10):
But I never forgot that conversation, just the possibility of how that could make for
a more compact reactor.
Tell us about that, Konstantin.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's actually, it's a genuinely fascinating thing, which also historically links up to
(21:31):
the cold fusion, right?
Like during the 80s, there was a moment of excitement about cold fusion, which turned
out totally to be kind of a red herring.
It was totally fake.
But what's interesting is that the words cold fusion actually originate from a 1956 New
(21:51):
York Times article exactly talking about not the 80s things, but the muon catalyzed nuclear
fusion.
So first, what is a muon?
Okay.
Muon is a negatively charged lepton, which is a type of particle with a mass about 200
(22:15):
times that of an electron.
So you can really, you can think of it just as a very, very heavy electron.
And the unfortunate thing about muons is that they last about 2.2 microseconds because,
and after a while, meaning after 2.2 microseconds, they decay into a neutrino, which is a different
(22:41):
type of particle and a conventional electron.
But while it lasts, like during its lifespan, what the muon can do is it can replace one
of the electrons in the hydrogen molecule.
And that allows the two nuclei to draw far closer than the normal covalent bond.
(23:06):
And because of that, the probability of just regular deuterium curing fusion increases
by a ton.
And then after a fusion reaction occurs, like the muon that is responsible for catalyzing
that reaction is in principle free to catalyze other events until it decays or is somehow
(23:32):
removed.
So it's really, really cool.
And gosh, if it worked better, we would have had fusion, you know, like fusion reactors
properly in the 50s.
Now, the reason there's a problem with this approach is that, well, the muon doesn't
(23:55):
last very long.
Okay, so it only has 2.2 microseconds before it goes away.
And the other problem is that it sticks to alpha particles, which are the helium nuclei.
And so if you can somehow solve the time scale and the sticking problem, then you're in business.
(24:17):
But indeed, muons are readily generated by particle accelerators.
I mean, muons are actually even generated in the atmosphere.
Right?
So the cosmic rays, which are just charged particles that fly around in space as they
impact our atmosphere, they create a shower of particles.
(24:41):
And one of the things that comes out is muon.
So I still think it's one of the coolest things ever, because it puts fusion just barely with,
you know, it's like just a bit, a little bit out of reach.
And yeah, I wish there was a simple solution.
(25:02):
Interesting.
Like maybe there's a complicated solution.
So it looks like maybe 30 years down the line, there will be a possibility of cold fusion
generators, but it would be some combination of the muon, some combination of a laser plasma
(25:25):
heating system, and a lot of material innovations in terms of like superconductors and...
room temperature superconductors, things like that.
Yeah, it's all I think about, what do you say, two to three decades away?
(25:49):
Oh, I would say, I mean, the way things are going, I'm more optimistic than that.
I mean, I think that, well, I mean, material science generally right now is kind of having
a moment.
Yeah.
So I'm, I mean, of course, it's hard to predict the future.
(26:11):
It's easier to predict the past.
But yeah, I'm kind of optimistic, given the explosion of both kind of theoretical work
that's been done in the last decade and a half, kind of predicting different, you know,
different phases, like what kind of materials are in principle possible.
(26:34):
And that stuff is starting to get experimentally tested, and there's a huge, huge, huge amount
of kind of research being done in that realm.
So I'm, I have to say, I hope it doesn't take two to three decades.
I think it'll be faster than that.
And I don't know how the muon thing will play out, but surely the kind of superconducting
(27:04):
like magnets, right, things that can produce kind of huge fields, fields on the order of
10 Tesla or whatever.
Like that's going to be a prerequisite for regular, you know, tokamak devices.
And so in that regard, right, there's been progress left and right in the last decade.
(27:29):
So I'm very, very optimistic about that.
Yeah, yet another kind of convergence field between particle accelerators and fusion energy
or the superconducting magnets.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's awesome.
Yeah.
It's, it's the convergence of all of those.
(27:50):
And of course, AI and material development with quantum computing and AI, that's going
to be huge.
I think in this regard, right, AI is going to play a critically important role, if anything,
for its ability to think in more than, you know, four dimensions.
(28:11):
Like human beings just naturally don't have the capacity to think in greater than 40.
I mean, I have a, I have a hard time thinking in like 2D.
You know, I usually think in just one dimension, but you know, the fact that artificial intelligence
is not limited in this way means that from a fundamental perspective, right, it can kind
(28:39):
of, it can keep track of plasma instabilities potentially far better than, than we can.
And so I, I think that there's kind of an untapped future in, in this regard where,
you know, where AI systems will be able to kind of machine learn the various instabilities
(29:06):
and potentially suppress them, right.
That's just something that human, human minds cannot do.
And so I, that's another realm where I think the kind of convergence and the cross-pollination
of those fields is going to be critical for progress.
Yeah, for sure.
We were, we've been thinking out our, our AI system within all of this.
(29:34):
And we think about how the fusion energy generation aspect of it and those simulations itself
there's, yeah, there's quite a bit we can do with AI with self-healing walls, with nanotechnology
and, and plasma and mitigation and all of that.
But then we think about all of the things you can do with AI in terms of like marketing
(29:55):
and sales and in financial reporting and all of that to keep things accurate.
And then so it's pretty exciting because there's a larger, larger convergence there as well.
Because when you look at your end-to-end system of even customer management or like when you
look at order of like any commercial product, not just, you know, something that we're doing,
(30:16):
but like, it's, it's, it's pretty cool.
It's, it's, yeah.
Isn't it kind of wild that all of this stuff is happening right now?
Like it's, it's kind of, it feels like, yeah, it feels like a really kind of monumental
time in history.
(30:36):
Like I always wondered what it was like in the early 1900s when quantum mechanics was
getting discovered and like how cool it would have been to witness that and to be, to be
involved in that, to kind of be a part of that revolution.
But I think, you know, right now we're part of a somewhat different revolution, but it's
(30:58):
equally cool.
And yeah, it's just, you know, it didn't have to be this way, but it's an interesting time
to be alive.
Hey, I'm just, I'm grateful.
I don't question it.
I just say thank you.
I, you know, the, the, the thing about that, you said, uh, multi-dimensional calculations
(31:19):
and quantum.
So that kind of brings about like doing multi-dimensional calculations for simulations using quantum
computing and the convergence of the hardware and the software of that, meaning, um, the
quantum computing coming together with the AI to build these like robust, like digital
(31:39):
twin simulations and prototypes and the possibilities of those in every field, especially ours,
but in every field, um, that's, that's like mind blowing to me, but I've never kind of
like understood the actual bridge of, um, why a quantum computer allows you to do this
(32:02):
multi-dimensional calculation like far better than, you know, shall we say, um, conventional
computing?
Yeah.
Um, I didn't want to be offensive, uh, conventional super computing.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, help us, help us understand that, that multi-dimensionality of quantum computing
(32:25):
and how that, yeah.
And I'll be honest, I'm not at all an expert in quantum computing, right?
There are tasks, right?
The tasks for which quantum computers fundamentally, right?
Because they don't like a classical computer thinks in terms of, you know, bits, right?
The flipping of zero one and, and the quantum computer thinks in terms of qubits, which
(32:51):
are, which are states.
Um, so, so fundamentally they work in a little bit of a different way.
Um, the principle, by the way, has been around for a long, long time.
I mean, like Feynman wrote about quantum computing, um, and he died, I don't remember exactly
what year he died, but he died in like the early eighties.
(33:12):
So I think the principle has been with us for quite some time, but the reason, and to
be, and to be clear, like the quantum computer is not necessarily something that you would
use in like your calculator, right?
A regular classical computer is just fine as a calculator, but there are certain tasks
(33:35):
for which the quantum computer works better.
Now for a long time it was an issue of like just building one, right?
Like getting, getting one to getting the, your computing system to be stable and not
like interacting with the walls, for example, because you know, quantum mechanics is a,
(33:59):
is a beautiful and, uh, and tricky thing, right?
Things are not, there are no trajectories, there are no particles, so to speak, that
are wave functions, which will tend to couple to walls.
And that's a, that's been a problem for some time, but you know, again, right now, like
with a lot of other things, we're living through an interesting kind of intersection point
(34:25):
where that's becoming much more of a reality.
Yeah.
How does it go from like this theoretical world of like Feynman talking about these
quantum states and how that exists in the universe and, and how did we turn that into
a computing technology, you know, like that bridge of it, it, it's, it's mind boggling
(34:53):
to me how it goes from Einstein hypothesizing it.
And that's your field, you know, like you guys are, I don't know how you guys do it.
Like that's, that's amazing.
Well, I appreciate it.
I'm no Feynman and you know, to, you know, and I think nobody, nobody is.
He was a, he was one of the kind of unique minds of the 20th century.
(35:18):
And that said, you know, there's, there are, there are numerous examples of, of times in
science where you kind of know that stuff is going to work, but it's just the technology
is not there yet to make it work.
(35:38):
I mean, a good example is, you know, in signal processing, for example, right?
Like a Fourier transform is something that you do routinely.
And there's a method to computing the discrete Fourier transforms called fast Fourier transforms.
And fast Fourier transforms were already invented by Gauss in like the 1800s.
(36:04):
And he was frustrated by the fact that computers were not there to perform them.
I mean, this is, this is kind of along the lines of what you're talking about, right?
You realize that the principle is there and just the computational power is on there.
And Gauss, by the way, was also the first person to conduct a true simulation of like
(36:29):
planetary motion, like full scale planets, all the planets interacting with each other,
which is not a problem that you can solve, you know, on a piece of paper, right?
And he realized that you would have to discretize that problem and solve it via simulation.
And the way he did it is he got a bunch of friends and like the people were the computers
(36:52):
and they would pass pieces of paper around and propagate errors and do this stuff.
And it worked.
The only problem was that it worked slower than real time.
You were better off just sitting back and watching the planets orbiting the sun.
But still, like, yeah, was a legit numerical simulation.
(37:15):
Oh my God.
Yeah, it was running.
Yeah, it was running on very slow processors, otherwise known as the human brain.
How far we've come.
Yeah, we've we've recently had conversations about having sensors and transmitters put
into fusion energy generators that have to like withstand an immense amount of heat and
(37:38):
also be able to communicate with the quantum computer and have like high speeds.
And so it's a challenging task.
It's a challenging material physics and yeah, it's a yeah, it's a challenging task.
It's a tall order.
We'll see.
But what if it wasn't right?
(38:00):
If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fun.
And also true.
That's true.
Yeah, sorry.
I'm vehemently agreeing with you here.
Very cool.
Yeah.
But the fact that it what do you say about a hundred year gap between when quantum quantum
(38:26):
states or quantum physics came to be to when we can use a quantum computer and tune the
neural network such that we can process in high enough speeds to control a plasma in
a tiny sun on Earth like that that road map is is is chock full of amazing scientists.
(38:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's about a hundred year gap, which is kind of actually I hadn't quite I mean,
a little bit more.
I mean, we're now kind of past the first formulations, of course, of certainly we're past the 100
year mark for the formulation of what's called the old quantum theory.
(39:11):
But yeah, I never it's actually it would be an interesting exercise to, you know, really
take every invention and measure what's the time scale in between the conceptualization
of being possible and not.
I would say the radio was a little shorter.
(39:34):
The radio was invented by something like early 1900s.
And Maxwell's equations were fully understood by Maxwell in the 1860s.
So there was kind of a shorter than a century time scale in between.
(39:54):
But that is surely the order of magnitude is correct.
So so, yeah, that's a I never quite thought about that time span in between original theory
and then what you could do with it.
Yeah, some some harder than others, I suppose.
(40:19):
What do you see now that that's probably in like a very raw theoretical stage that has
like just world changing or maybe solar system changing implications in the next century?
What do you think?
Well, so yeah, you know, there's a OK, good question.
(40:41):
So I have a former student named Walker Melton who did his undergraduate thesis with me at
Caltech on kind of analogies between quantum mechanics and the propagation of waves in
self gravitating disks.
And then he went on to Harvard and he now works on stuff that I frankly don't understand
(41:07):
at all.
Like I was trying to read a couple of his papers a month ago and I couldn't understand
any of the sentences.
Right.
And it sort of felt like like kind of a gorilla that's been handed like a wrench where I'm
like, OK, I know this does something.
What is it like warp warp like a wormhole or something?
(41:31):
Like what are we doing?
Like we're warping time.
The paper was about the amplitude of the celestial leap.
I have no idea or computing the amplitudes of celestial leap.
So I have no idea what that means.
What's a celestial leap?
Is that like what happened in the interstellar movie?
(41:51):
No, no, nothing to do.
As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with celestial mechanics.
Every time I talk to Walker about it, he said, well, just consider gravity in a box.
And I was like, yeah.
You know, again, like, you mean like gravitational pull inside a box?
(42:13):
He's like, no, like take gravity, the theory of gravity and put it into a box.
And that's kind of where where am I on?
I don't understand.
I don't know.
But I do wonder.
I mean, I'm sure that, you know, there were people a hundred years ago who saw quantum
mechanics as some weird thing that you know, that's equally impenetrable as the celestial
(42:38):
leaf amplitude is to me.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of development like that that's happening right now that
I'm kind of not involved in because ultimately, just from my own preference, I like the certain
branches of physics that I like, I enjoy things being maybe I don't want to say practical,
(43:02):
but I enjoy being able to imagine what actually is happening.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And so like there's an applied aspect to celestial mechanics and orbital dynamics and plasma
physics.
There's a joy in being able to imagine its direct effects.
(43:29):
So to that said, you know, I'm probably locked out of some of the things that will be, you
know, a century from now making revolutionary technological strides.
And the celestial leaf might be part of it.
I just don't know.
Interesting.
(43:49):
Yeah.
I googled the celestial leaf and I couldn't find an explanation.
A friend of mine sent me a link to like a steam community post about how there's some
video game where if you get stuck on the celestial leaf, you have to have the celestial leaf blower.
(44:12):
And that's about the explanation, like the extent of the explanation.
No, I was you know what I was about to say?
I was about to say I feel like I have seen Gravity being turned off and on in like a
superhero movie.
I can't put my finger on which one, but I feel like I've seen that conceptually in like
(44:33):
it's got to be like some sort of sci fi stuff.
Maybe future Rama because I that's my favorite show on the planet.
So maybe maybe it was there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
I'm excited.
You've watched future.
I'm not you like future.
I'm not constantly.
Oh, of course.
Of course.
(44:54):
It's been a moment since then.
But like, yeah, gosh, it's like in college.
This was kind of a staple for Caltech.
Really?
One of my favorite moments in that it was when the robot goes to sleep in the closet
(45:15):
and he's just kind of asleep talking is like destroy all humanity, destroy humanity.
And then he gets woken up and he's like, oh, sorry, I was just having a wonderful dream.
I love it.
Yeah, no, I love that show.
I love it so much.
Yeah, downright my favorite.
Watching it in Caltech, but in a way like that, that's almost that's super cool.
(45:40):
I've seen garbage being incinerated in that one.
That one always fascinates me because I feel like I can build a fusion energy generator
that would produce so much heat that it would just incinerate just about every garbage and
with nothing left, not even smoke.
You know, like, yes, so I get some ideas from Futurama every now and then.
(46:05):
But the you know, the thing I did want to ask you about sometime, I've been thinking
about this for a while.
When I talk to people about magnetic fields and creating magnetic fields to confine plasma,
you kind of think about like we talk about 30 Tesla magnets.
(46:27):
We've seen I think the strongest magnet is 45 Tesla and that was also designed by Bob.
But then you think about like you take that up to like 150 Tesla.
I don't know the number.
I'm just making this one up.
Like if you take it to 150 Tesla or something, is that the Einstein Rosen Bridge?
Is that where you get into the possibilities of being able to bend?
(46:53):
I don't know what I'm asking here.
But these are all things that are a long way away.
And I think, yeah, and I think a lot of our work now is quite grounded in reality in the
next 10 years, I suppose.
Yes.
So what are you working on like now other than the Planet X Clonestrontine?
(47:19):
Well, you know, I've got I'm excited about fusion.
I'm excited about AI.
I started up going.
I'm also right now.
I'm involved in a really cool calculation to constrain and understand the primordial
(47:41):
radius of Jupiter and primordial magnetic field and the primordial accretion.
So around Jupiter, there are the satellites that are famed Galilean satellites, like Io,
Europa, Ganymede, Callisto.
But interior to Io, there are these tiny satellites that are just like nobody cares about.
(48:05):
They're called the MLF group.
But what I found is that by carefully studying the dynamical footprint, the sort of orbital
dynamics interactions between the Galilean satellites and the small satellites, you can
(48:28):
deduce many of the properties of Jupiter four and a half billion years ago.
And you can do this calculation actually kind of on a piece of paper, which is pretty remarkable.
And so the upshot of all of this is that when the solar nebula dissipated, so like when
(48:48):
the gaseous cloud got evaporated from around the sun, Jupiter was twice as big as it is
now and had a magnetic field of about 200 gauss.
So this is 0.02 Tesla.
(49:08):
Nothing like what we like to talk about.
Chronos, of course, but it's bigger than what it is now for Jupiter, which is about
10.
And it was accreting material, like accreting an atmosphere at a rate of about a Jupiter
mass per million years.
So this is just a cute calculation.
(49:30):
I'm really excited about it now.
It just got accepted for publication like a week ago.
So that's the thing that I'm thinking about a lot.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it is kind of the paper.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Yeah.
Even if I understand like 2% of it, I'd love to read it.
(49:51):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And then when does this telescope come online next year then?
So I think it's supposed to start operation maybe in the winter of 2025, but science operations
begin in the summer of 2025.
(50:11):
So it's going to be a pretty cool, you know, pretty busy time.
Yeah, yeah.
Exciting times, exciting times, exciting times for fusion too next year.
Absolutely.
Yeah, big timelines.
That's awesome.
Well, this was great.
(50:31):
Thank you so much for doing this, Constantine.
Thank you so much, Priyanka.
I really appreciate it.
(51:02):
For scale, right, 150 Tesla, okay, is, you know, about a million Gals, which is the typical
magnetic field of like a white dwarf star.
So such fields are not, yeah, they're not, you know, out of this world, so to speak.
(51:27):
Like they happen all the time in astrophysics.
And there's nothing scary, nothing, nothing scary happens when you reach those, those
out.
Like you can elevate a frog pretty well with the strontium magnetic field, but that's about,
you know, that's about the consequence.
So yeah, there's nothing, nothing horrific.
Welcome to the 2024 season ending episode of the Kronos Fusion Energy Podcast.
(00:16):
As we conclude this 2024 season, we reflect on a year filled with insightful discussions
and groundbreaking advancements in fusion technology.
Our journey has taken us through the intricacies of plasma physics, the development of superconducting
magnets and the exploration of sustainable energy solutions.
(00:39):
We've had the privilege of engaging with leading experts who are at the forefront of reshaping
our energy landscape, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the
challenges and triumphs in the pursuit of clean limitless fusion power.
I am deeply grateful to my co-founders and our founding board advisors for their unwavering
(01:01):
dedication and the wealth of experience they bring to Kronos Fusion Energy.
Each of them is a colossus in their field and I feel incredibly humbled to work alongside
such an exceptional group of individuals every day.
Their collective expertise and passion are the driving forces behind our mission to revolutionize
(01:21):
the energy sector.
Today I'm thrilled to welcome my co-founder, Dr. Konstantin Batygin.
Our journey began at the Athenaeum at Caltech, where an electrifying conversation about the
future of fusion energy laid the groundwork for our collaboration.
(01:42):
Since our inception in 2022, Konstantin's profound experience in universal mechanics
and advanced mathematics has been instrumental in advancing our mission here to create a
mini sun on Earth.
Dr. Batygin is a renowned professor of planetary science at Caltech.
(02:03):
He's celebrated for his pioneering work in planetary astrophysics.
His research encompasses the formation and evolution of the solar system, the dynamic
behavior of exoplanets, and the intricate processes within planetary interiors and atmospheres.
Notably, he has been honored with the prestigious Sloan Research Fellowship and was named a
(02:26):
Packard Fellow, underscoring his significant contributions to the field.
In today's episode, we embark on a journey through the frontiers of astronomy and fusion
energy.
Dr. Batygin shares insights into the upcoming Vera Rubin Observatory, set to become operational
by the end of 2025, and its potential role in discovering Planet Nine.
(02:52):
We also explore the distinctions between the James Webb Space Telescope, optimized for
close observations and spectrum analysis, and the Vera Rubin Observatory, which is designed
for wide field searches.
Additionally, we dwell into the utilization of particle accelerators in fusion and material
(03:13):
science, particularly in isotope production.
We discuss the advancements like part accelerator-driven systems and accelerator-driven fusion for
material innovations.
Our conversation extends to the theoretical concept of muon-catalyzed fusion, examining
(03:33):
the potential of muons to drive fusion reactions and the challenges posed by their short lifespans
and decay tendencies.
We also consider the prospects of future cold fusion generators, emphasizing the necessity
for advancements in superconductors in material science.
(03:53):
Dr. Batygin highlights the transformative role of artificial intelligence in managing
complex simulations and optimizing fusion reactor stability, especially with quantum
computing's capability to handle multidimensional calculations.
We reflect on the evolution from theoretical quantum mechanics to practical quantum computing,
(04:17):
discussing how qubits can enhance complex simulations in fusion energy.
We also get into his ongoing research on Jupiter's primordial state, using the orbital dynamics
of its moon to infer conditions billions of years ago.
The episode concludes with an exploration of the potential impact of the next generation
(04:40):
telescopes and fusion technology in the near future.
The way he sees it, at the end of the day, all the physics, fusion energy, and math are
a big ruse to further his music career.
So don't forget to check out the seventh season, where Constantine is the lead vocalist
and guitarist.
The seventh season is a Los Angeles-based rock band.
(05:04):
Their powerful vocals, electrifying guitars, solid bass lines, and dynamic drumming creates
a magnetic sound that has captivated audiences across the globe.
So don't forget to check out the seventh season's latest releases and experience their captivating
performances.
I am Priyanka Ford, the founder of Chronos Fusion Energy, Inc.
(05:27):
Here's my co-founder from week one at Chronos, Constantine Bachijan.
Good start.
Yeah, it's going good.
How are you doing, Constantine?
Listen, I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
Science is coming along.
You know, the spooky weather is here.
(05:49):
So my favorite time of the year.
Halloween's my favorite thing ever.
Yeah, yeah.
I like the time of the year.
Yeah, the whole changing of the weather.
It's beautiful.
Have we found that planet yet?
Planet X?
Have we found that yet?
The night is young and full of terrors.
(06:12):
We haven't found it yet because I think most people have stopped actually searching in
the last year or so.
And that's because there's a new telescope coming online next year that's going to kind
of eat everybody's lunch, so to speak.
When LST, which is also known as the Vera Rubin Observatory, starts operations and that's
(06:33):
scheduled for, like science operations are scheduled for summer of 2025, it will scan
the sky up and down kind of every night.
So it won't scan the entire sky, of course, because it's in the southern hemisphere and
parts of the northern sky are unavailable to it.
(06:54):
But it's going to get a lot of stuff.
And that's going to be really a revolutionary point for all outer solar system research.
And yeah, I think that telescope has the best chance of finding Planet Nine and if not,
it will at the very least kind of independently confirm or refute for that matter the various
(07:19):
lines of evidence that we have for it.
This is better than the JWST or just different better?
It's different.
Yeah.
So JWST is an infrared telescope, which is designed basically for characterization.
So you can look at one thing with exceptional precision and take its spectrum.
(07:44):
That's what JWST is good for.
The Vera Rubin Observatory is an optical telescope and it's ground based and it has a huge field
of view.
So it's kind of a, it's more of a search instrument rather than a characterization instrument.
So yeah, you don't want to be searching for your target with like a sniper rifle, right?
(08:07):
You want to be searching with something with a larger field of view like binoculars, but
then you want to characterize it with something like JWST.
So once we find Planet Nine, we'll definitely look at it with JWST to figure out what its
atmosphere is made out of and if it has a surface, that kind of thing.
(08:28):
Nice.
And you have, the only reason you can use this sniper scope is because you've mathematically
done the calculation to figure that point out.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of the only reason there's motivation, I would say, to look for the planet
(08:51):
in the outer solar system in the first place is because, like you said, the mathematics
points to the existence of a planet in the outer solar system.
I mean, the solar system at this point, its structure makes no sense if there isn't something
(09:11):
out there shepherding the small objects' gravitation.
Do you mind explaining that?
That's fascinating.
So where is it actually pulling on the entire solar system, on our outer planets?
How big is it?
How much is it pulling?
(09:32):
Okay.
So this is a, I'm glad you asked this because I think I have something like an explanation.
So the calculations point to a planet that's about five Earth masses, okay, and that goes
around the sun once every 10 or 20,000 years and does so on an appreciably eccentric orbit.
(09:59):
So an orbit that's kind of elliptical and out and round, right?
So does it pull on everything?
Sure, it does.
But its effects are amplified the further out you go away from the sun.
So for example, if you were to say, what effect would it have on the Earth's orbit?
(10:21):
The answer is it shifts the Earth's location by about one meter compared to, I don't know,
it's not there.
So that's a genuinely pathetic effect, right?
Like changing the location of the Earth by three feet just doesn't matter.
But if you go out beyond the orbit of Neptune, right, so to scale Neptune's at 30 times the
(10:46):
distance between the Earth and the sun, and if you go another order of magnitude out for
things that are 300 astronomical units and beyond, there you really get to see this planet
kind of pulling all the orbits into a common direction, lifting their orbital plane by
(11:07):
about 20 degrees relative to the plane of the solar system.
And so you can kind of see almost this floral arrangement, or maybe it's a gravitational
arrangement of orbits that are well beyond Neptune that require some form of sculpting
by an exterior agent.
(11:29):
And we know that that exterior agent cannot be the galaxy.
We know it cannot be the Oort cloud.
And in fact, the place where you have to put the perturbor is kind of in that intermediate
part of real estate between the conventional solar system and what we call the Oort cloud,
(11:52):
so the edge of the interstellar space.
So yeah, it's an exciting time to be working on this stuff.
We know the gravitational effects of the Oort cloud.
Yeah, we do.
It's significant.
(12:12):
I thought it was just like a mist or just kind of like Saturn's rings where it was like
a bunch of rocks, but it has a cohesive effect.
Does it have more of a pull on certain parts of it and less than others based on the mass?
What am I asking?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:33):
So the Oort cloud in total is about is sort of a few Earth masses.
So it's not, it is composed of, you know, comets basically.
But cumulatively, it's not as negligible as Saturn's rings.
Like Saturn's rings don't have any mass.
(12:53):
The only reason they look cool is because they're reflective and they really don't
weigh very much.
So we do know the gravitational effect of the Oort cloud and it turns out to be pretty
negligible.
Right?
And that's why you need something else.
(13:14):
You can compute what the Oort cloud cumulatively will do and it would sort of change outer
solar system orbits on a time scale of like 10 billion years.
So something comparable to the age of the universe.
But the solar system is only five billion years old.
So even at best, the Oort cloud just does not compete.
(13:38):
And that's why there has to be this other thing.
And the word cloud, I think, kind of throws you off, makes you think it's like, yeah.
And usually astrophysics is so good about getting the name so spot on.
It's a halo of debris or planetesimals or comets.
(14:03):
Right.
How cool.
That's so awesome.
I think the fact that this is your job is so spectacular or part of your job, I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, I still kind of get surprised that I get paid.
You know, like, yeah, it was kind of one of these things where I feel really fortunate
(14:25):
in a multifaceted sense of working on things I love and being able to, you know, do that
and kind of survive.
Like, that's the dream.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, I get that.
That's how I feel every day.
I'm like, haha, I'd have done this for free.
(14:46):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Did you want, is this what you wanted to do as a child?
What did you want to be as a child?
Oh, as a child, I was pretty sure that I was going to be a particle accelerator physicist.
Like that.
Yeah, that sounds kind of specific.
(15:06):
But part of the reason for that is, as a kid, you know, we, like, I grew up on campus of
a facility with a particle accelerator.
And I think, you know, it's one of these things where you kind of, you do the thing that,
or at least as a kid, you think you want to do the thing that you are exposed to.
(15:28):
And because there was a particle accelerator, a lot of people I knew were physicists or
kids of physicists, I was like, well, I guess that's kind of like what you have to become
when you grow up.
And then I later realized that you don't have to become a particle accelerator physicist.
And in fact, that's kind of a niche thing.
(15:49):
And so, you know, the thing that I was going to do is be a professional musician.
And you know, our band is going to become the next Metallica.
And I think we're about, you know, three or four shows away from that happening right
now.
I feel it.
Yeah, I feel it.
I've heard it and I feel it.
I'm right there with you.
Yeah, it's got to, you know, that's right.
(16:10):
David Spitz is about to be dethroned.
Poor Planet Nine.
It will have to wait just a little longer.
Yeah.
Oh, particle accelerator.
Yeah.
You know, I run into people when we talk about fusion, people talk about, oh, you know, they
(16:43):
ask what type of fusion and whether we are what we're going after.
And what they're really asking is, are we using fusion for electricity?
Are we using it for heat?
Or are we using it for like material development?
So I, it took me a while to kind of build that bridge between particle accelerators
(17:06):
and fusion and material development.
But I feel like you built that bridge like decades ago.
Like, can you help us like with how fusion and particle accelerators and new material
or isotope development, like how it comes together?
Yeah, so there's really a multitude of ways, but the first two that come to mind immediately.
(17:34):
So let's talk first about, you know, production of lithium, right?
Like lithium seven is a good way to make tritium, right?
You irradiate lithium seven with a high intensity beam of protons.
And you know, then, and then it decays into helium and tritium.
(18:05):
And so that for a long time was kind of viewed as the most viable mechanism to source tritium.
And it's still, you know, very much up in the kind of community.
Like that's still something that is consistently discussed.
(18:29):
And you know, fusion aside, you know, when it comes to fission, right, like the byproducts
of nuclear fission can be made also less radioactive by irradiating them with a high intensity
beam of charged particles.
And that's because you basically peel off the isotopes of, I would say, uranium that
(18:55):
are still radioactive.
And so those systems are called ADS, system accelerator driven system.
Now there's also a distinct approach to fusion, right, which actually uses particle beams
to collide them and drive fusion that way.
(19:17):
So rather than, you know, doing like the usual thing in a telcomap where you just crank up
the temperature to the point where you try to have tritium and deuterium today or, you
know, helium three or helium three come in and just cross the kind of, you cool a barrier
(19:40):
and combine just because the temperature is so high.
The accelerator driven fusion is distinct in that you first accelerate the particles
or whatever particles you want.
I mean, typically it's heavy ions and then have those collide at a fast enough energy.
So it's just a different approach.
(20:00):
But yeah, the two things have, the two kind of fields of development, right, both the
accelerator science and just plasma physics in general, of course, which is so critically
relevant for fusion have always gone hand in hand and they've always kind of developed
together.
(20:20):
So there's a lot of cross-pollination between the two ideas.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
I remember the first time we met in person at Caltech, you explained a nuance to me and
how you could produce those in particle accelerators and somehow put them into a tokamak to make
(20:44):
fusion better.
Yeah, I would love.
I would love another explanation of that one because I kind of found it fascinating.
(21:10):
But I never forgot that conversation, just the possibility of how that could make for
a more compact reactor.
Tell us about that, Konstantin.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's actually, it's a genuinely fascinating thing, which also historically links up to
(21:31):
the cold fusion, right?
Like during the 80s, there was a moment of excitement about cold fusion, which turned
out totally to be kind of a red herring.
It was totally fake.
But what's interesting is that the words cold fusion actually originate from a 1956 New
(21:51):
York Times article exactly talking about not the 80s things, but the muon catalyzed nuclear
fusion.
So first, what is a muon?
Okay.
Muon is a negatively charged lepton, which is a type of particle with a mass about 200
(22:15):
times that of an electron.
So you can really, you can think of it just as a very, very heavy electron.
And the unfortunate thing about muons is that they last about 2.2 microseconds because,
and after a while, meaning after 2.2 microseconds, they decay into a neutrino, which is a different
(22:41):
type of particle and a conventional electron.
But while it lasts, like during its lifespan, what the muon can do is it can replace one
of the electrons in the hydrogen molecule.
And that allows the two nuclei to draw far closer than the normal covalent bond.
(23:06):
And because of that, the probability of just regular deuterium curing fusion increases
by a ton.
And then after a fusion reaction occurs, like the muon that is responsible for catalyzing
that reaction is in principle free to catalyze other events until it decays or is somehow
(23:32):
removed.
So it's really, really cool.
And gosh, if it worked better, we would have had fusion, you know, like fusion reactors
properly in the 50s.
Now, the reason there's a problem with this approach is that, well, the muon doesn't
(23:55):
last very long.
Okay, so it only has 2.2 microseconds before it goes away.
And the other problem is that it sticks to alpha particles, which are the helium nuclei.
And so if you can somehow solve the time scale and the sticking problem, then you're in business.
(24:17):
But indeed, muons are readily generated by particle accelerators.
I mean, muons are actually even generated in the atmosphere.
Right?
So the cosmic rays, which are just charged particles that fly around in space as they
impact our atmosphere, they create a shower of particles.
(24:41):
And one of the things that comes out is muon.
So I still think it's one of the coolest things ever, because it puts fusion just barely with,
you know, it's like just a bit, a little bit out of reach.
And yeah, I wish there was a simple solution.
(25:02):
Interesting.
Like maybe there's a complicated solution.
So it looks like maybe 30 years down the line, there will be a possibility of cold fusion
generators, but it would be some combination of the muon, some combination of a laser plasma
(25:25):
heating system, and a lot of material innovations in terms of like superconductors and...
room temperature superconductors, things like that.
Yeah, it's all I think about, what do you say, two to three decades away?
(25:49):
Oh, I would say, I mean, the way things are going, I'm more optimistic than that.
I mean, I think that, well, I mean, material science generally right now is kind of having
a moment.
Yeah.
So I'm, I mean, of course, it's hard to predict the future.
(26:11):
It's easier to predict the past.
But yeah, I'm kind of optimistic, given the explosion of both kind of theoretical work
that's been done in the last decade and a half, kind of predicting different, you know,
different phases, like what kind of materials are in principle possible.
(26:34):
And that stuff is starting to get experimentally tested, and there's a huge, huge, huge amount
of kind of research being done in that realm.
So I'm, I have to say, I hope it doesn't take two to three decades.
I think it'll be faster than that.
And I don't know how the muon thing will play out, but surely the kind of superconducting
(27:04):
like magnets, right, things that can produce kind of huge fields, fields on the order of
10 Tesla or whatever.
Like that's going to be a prerequisite for regular, you know, tokamak devices.
And so in that regard, right, there's been progress left and right in the last decade.
(27:29):
So I'm very, very optimistic about that.
Yeah, yet another kind of convergence field between particle accelerators and fusion energy
or the superconducting magnets.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's awesome.
Yeah.
It's, it's the convergence of all of those.
(27:50):
And of course, AI and material development with quantum computing and AI, that's going
to be huge.
I think in this regard, right, AI is going to play a critically important role, if anything,
for its ability to think in more than, you know, four dimensions.
(28:11):
Like human beings just naturally don't have the capacity to think in greater than 40.
I mean, I have a, I have a hard time thinking in like 2D.
You know, I usually think in just one dimension, but you know, the fact that artificial intelligence
is not limited in this way means that from a fundamental perspective, right, it can kind
(28:39):
of, it can keep track of plasma instabilities potentially far better than, than we can.
And so I, I think that there's kind of an untapped future in, in this regard where,
you know, where AI systems will be able to kind of machine learn the various instabilities
(29:06):
and potentially suppress them, right.
That's just something that human, human minds cannot do.
And so I, that's another realm where I think the kind of convergence and the cross-pollination
of those fields is going to be critical for progress.
Yeah, for sure.
We were, we've been thinking out our, our AI system within all of this.
(29:34):
And we think about how the fusion energy generation aspect of it and those simulations itself
there's, yeah, there's quite a bit we can do with AI with self-healing walls, with nanotechnology
and, and plasma and mitigation and all of that.
But then we think about all of the things you can do with AI in terms of like marketing
(29:55):
and sales and in financial reporting and all of that to keep things accurate.
And then so it's pretty exciting because there's a larger, larger convergence there as well.
Because when you look at your end-to-end system of even customer management or like when you
look at order of like any commercial product, not just, you know, something that we're doing,
(30:16):
but like, it's, it's, it's pretty cool.
It's, it's, yeah.
Isn't it kind of wild that all of this stuff is happening right now?
Like it's, it's kind of, it feels like, yeah, it feels like a really kind of monumental
time in history.
(30:36):
Like I always wondered what it was like in the early 1900s when quantum mechanics was
getting discovered and like how cool it would have been to witness that and to be, to be
involved in that, to kind of be a part of that revolution.
But I think, you know, right now we're part of a somewhat different revolution, but it's
(30:58):
equally cool.
And yeah, it's just, you know, it didn't have to be this way, but it's an interesting time
to be alive.
Hey, I'm just, I'm grateful.
I don't question it.
I just say thank you.
I, you know, the, the, the thing about that, you said, uh, multi-dimensional calculations
(31:19):
and quantum.
So that kind of brings about like doing multi-dimensional calculations for simulations using quantum
computing and the convergence of the hardware and the software of that, meaning, um, the
quantum computing coming together with the AI to build these like robust, like digital
(31:39):
twin simulations and prototypes and the possibilities of those in every field, especially ours,
but in every field, um, that's, that's like mind blowing to me, but I've never kind of
like understood the actual bridge of, um, why a quantum computer allows you to do this
(32:02):
multi-dimensional calculation like far better than, you know, shall we say, um, conventional
computing?
Yeah.
Um, I didn't want to be offensive, uh, conventional super computing.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, help us, help us understand that, that multi-dimensionality of quantum computing
(32:25):
and how that, yeah.
And I'll be honest, I'm not at all an expert in quantum computing, right?
There are tasks, right?
The tasks for which quantum computers fundamentally, right?
Because they don't like a classical computer thinks in terms of, you know, bits, right?
The flipping of zero one and, and the quantum computer thinks in terms of qubits, which
(32:51):
are, which are states.
Um, so, so fundamentally they work in a little bit of a different way.
Um, the principle, by the way, has been around for a long, long time.
I mean, like Feynman wrote about quantum computing, um, and he died, I don't remember exactly
what year he died, but he died in like the early eighties.
(33:12):
So I think the principle has been with us for quite some time, but the reason, and to
be, and to be clear, like the quantum computer is not necessarily something that you would
use in like your calculator, right?
A regular classical computer is just fine as a calculator, but there are certain tasks
(33:35):
for which the quantum computer works better.
Now for a long time it was an issue of like just building one, right?
Like getting, getting one to getting the, your computing system to be stable and not
like interacting with the walls, for example, because you know, quantum mechanics is a,
(33:59):
is a beautiful and, uh, and tricky thing, right?
Things are not, there are no trajectories, there are no particles, so to speak, that
are wave functions, which will tend to couple to walls.
And that's a, that's been a problem for some time, but you know, again, right now, like
with a lot of other things, we're living through an interesting kind of intersection point
(34:25):
where that's becoming much more of a reality.
Yeah.
How does it go from like this theoretical world of like Feynman talking about these
quantum states and how that exists in the universe and, and how did we turn that into
a computing technology, you know, like that bridge of it, it, it's, it's mind boggling
(34:53):
to me how it goes from Einstein hypothesizing it.
And that's your field, you know, like you guys are, I don't know how you guys do it.
Like that's, that's amazing.
Well, I appreciate it.
I'm no Feynman and you know, to, you know, and I think nobody, nobody is.
He was a, he was one of the kind of unique minds of the 20th century.
(35:18):
And that said, you know, there's, there are, there are numerous examples of, of times in
science where you kind of know that stuff is going to work, but it's just the technology
is not there yet to make it work.
(35:38):
I mean, a good example is, you know, in signal processing, for example, right?
Like a Fourier transform is something that you do routinely.
And there's a method to computing the discrete Fourier transforms called fast Fourier transforms.
And fast Fourier transforms were already invented by Gauss in like the 1800s.
(36:04):
And he was frustrated by the fact that computers were not there to perform them.
I mean, this is, this is kind of along the lines of what you're talking about, right?
You realize that the principle is there and just the computational power is on there.
And Gauss, by the way, was also the first person to conduct a true simulation of like
(36:29):
planetary motion, like full scale planets, all the planets interacting with each other,
which is not a problem that you can solve, you know, on a piece of paper, right?
And he realized that you would have to discretize that problem and solve it via simulation.
And the way he did it is he got a bunch of friends and like the people were the computers
(36:52):
and they would pass pieces of paper around and propagate errors and do this stuff.
And it worked.
The only problem was that it worked slower than real time.
You were better off just sitting back and watching the planets orbiting the sun.
But still, like, yeah, was a legit numerical simulation.
(37:15):
Oh my God.
Yeah, it was running.
Yeah, it was running on very slow processors, otherwise known as the human brain.
How far we've come.
Yeah, we've we've recently had conversations about having sensors and transmitters put
into fusion energy generators that have to like withstand an immense amount of heat and
(37:38):
also be able to communicate with the quantum computer and have like high speeds.
And so it's a challenging task.
It's a challenging material physics and yeah, it's a yeah, it's a challenging task.
It's a tall order.
We'll see.
But what if it wasn't right?
(38:00):
If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fun.
And also true.
That's true.
Yeah, sorry.
I'm vehemently agreeing with you here.
Very cool.
Yeah.
But the fact that it what do you say about a hundred year gap between when quantum quantum
(38:26):
states or quantum physics came to be to when we can use a quantum computer and tune the
neural network such that we can process in high enough speeds to control a plasma in
a tiny sun on Earth like that that road map is is is chock full of amazing scientists.
(38:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's about a hundred year gap, which is kind of actually I hadn't quite I mean,
a little bit more.
I mean, we're now kind of past the first formulations, of course, of certainly we're past the 100
year mark for the formulation of what's called the old quantum theory.
(39:11):
But yeah, I never it's actually it would be an interesting exercise to, you know, really
take every invention and measure what's the time scale in between the conceptualization
of being possible and not.
I would say the radio was a little shorter.
(39:34):
The radio was invented by something like early 1900s.
And Maxwell's equations were fully understood by Maxwell in the 1860s.
So there was kind of a shorter than a century time scale in between.
(39:54):
But that is surely the order of magnitude is correct.
So so, yeah, that's a I never quite thought about that time span in between original theory
and then what you could do with it.
Yeah, some some harder than others, I suppose.
(40:19):
What do you see now that that's probably in like a very raw theoretical stage that has
like just world changing or maybe solar system changing implications in the next century?
What do you think?
Well, so yeah, you know, there's a OK, good question.
(40:41):
So I have a former student named Walker Melton who did his undergraduate thesis with me at
Caltech on kind of analogies between quantum mechanics and the propagation of waves in
self gravitating disks.
And then he went on to Harvard and he now works on stuff that I frankly don't understand
(41:07):
at all.
Like I was trying to read a couple of his papers a month ago and I couldn't understand
any of the sentences.
Right.
And it sort of felt like like kind of a gorilla that's been handed like a wrench where I'm
like, OK, I know this does something.
What is it like warp warp like a wormhole or something?
(41:31):
Like what are we doing?
Like we're warping time.
The paper was about the amplitude of the celestial leap.
I have no idea or computing the amplitudes of celestial leap.
So I have no idea what that means.
What's a celestial leap?
Is that like what happened in the interstellar movie?
(41:51):
No, no, nothing to do.
As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with celestial mechanics.
Every time I talk to Walker about it, he said, well, just consider gravity in a box.
And I was like, yeah.
You know, again, like, you mean like gravitational pull inside a box?
(42:13):
He's like, no, like take gravity, the theory of gravity and put it into a box.
And that's kind of where where am I on?
I don't understand.
I don't know.
But I do wonder.
I mean, I'm sure that, you know, there were people a hundred years ago who saw quantum
mechanics as some weird thing that you know, that's equally impenetrable as the celestial
(42:38):
leaf amplitude is to me.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of development like that that's happening right now that
I'm kind of not involved in because ultimately, just from my own preference, I like the certain
branches of physics that I like, I enjoy things being maybe I don't want to say practical,
(43:02):
but I enjoy being able to imagine what actually is happening.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And so like there's an applied aspect to celestial mechanics and orbital dynamics and plasma
physics.
There's a joy in being able to imagine its direct effects.
(43:29):
So to that said, you know, I'm probably locked out of some of the things that will be, you
know, a century from now making revolutionary technological strides.
And the celestial leaf might be part of it.
I just don't know.
Interesting.
(43:49):
Yeah.
I googled the celestial leaf and I couldn't find an explanation.
A friend of mine sent me a link to like a steam community post about how there's some
video game where if you get stuck on the celestial leaf, you have to have the celestial leaf blower.
(44:12):
And that's about the explanation, like the extent of the explanation.
No, I was you know what I was about to say?
I was about to say I feel like I have seen Gravity being turned off and on in like a
superhero movie.
I can't put my finger on which one, but I feel like I've seen that conceptually in like
(44:33):
it's got to be like some sort of sci fi stuff.
Maybe future Rama because I that's my favorite show on the planet.
So maybe maybe it was there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
I'm excited.
You've watched future.
I'm not you like future.
I'm not constantly.
Oh, of course.
Of course.
(44:54):
It's been a moment since then.
But like, yeah, gosh, it's like in college.
This was kind of a staple for Caltech.
Really?
One of my favorite moments in that it was when the robot goes to sleep in the closet
(45:15):
and he's just kind of asleep talking is like destroy all humanity, destroy humanity.
And then he gets woken up and he's like, oh, sorry, I was just having a wonderful dream.
I love it.
Yeah, no, I love that show.
I love it so much.
Yeah, downright my favorite.
Watching it in Caltech, but in a way like that, that's almost that's super cool.
(45:40):
I've seen garbage being incinerated in that one.
That one always fascinates me because I feel like I can build a fusion energy generator
that would produce so much heat that it would just incinerate just about every garbage and
with nothing left, not even smoke.
You know, like, yes, so I get some ideas from Futurama every now and then.
(46:05):
But the you know, the thing I did want to ask you about sometime, I've been thinking
about this for a while.
When I talk to people about magnetic fields and creating magnetic fields to confine plasma,
you kind of think about like we talk about 30 Tesla magnets.
(46:27):
We've seen I think the strongest magnet is 45 Tesla and that was also designed by Bob.
But then you think about like you take that up to like 150 Tesla.
I don't know the number.
I'm just making this one up.
Like if you take it to 150 Tesla or something, is that the Einstein Rosen Bridge?
Is that where you get into the possibilities of being able to bend?
(46:53):
I don't know what I'm asking here.
But these are all things that are a long way away.
And I think, yeah, and I think a lot of our work now is quite grounded in reality in the
next 10 years, I suppose.
Yes.
So what are you working on like now other than the Planet X Clonestrontine?
(47:19):
Well, you know, I've got I'm excited about fusion.
I'm excited about AI.
I started up going.
I'm also right now.
I'm involved in a really cool calculation to constrain and understand the primordial
(47:41):
radius of Jupiter and primordial magnetic field and the primordial accretion.
So around Jupiter, there are the satellites that are famed Galilean satellites, like Io,
Europa, Ganymede, Callisto.
But interior to Io, there are these tiny satellites that are just like nobody cares about.
(48:05):
They're called the MLF group.
But what I found is that by carefully studying the dynamical footprint, the sort of orbital
dynamics interactions between the Galilean satellites and the small satellites, you can
(48:28):
deduce many of the properties of Jupiter four and a half billion years ago.
And you can do this calculation actually kind of on a piece of paper, which is pretty remarkable.
And so the upshot of all of this is that when the solar nebula dissipated, so like when
(48:48):
the gaseous cloud got evaporated from around the sun, Jupiter was twice as big as it is
now and had a magnetic field of about 200 gauss.
So this is 0.02 Tesla.
(49:08):
Nothing like what we like to talk about.
Chronos, of course, but it's bigger than what it is now for Jupiter, which is about
10.
And it was accreting material, like accreting an atmosphere at a rate of about a Jupiter
mass per million years.
So this is just a cute calculation.
(49:30):
I'm really excited about it now.
It just got accepted for publication like a week ago.
So that's the thing that I'm thinking about a lot.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it is kind of the paper.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Yeah.
Even if I understand like 2% of it, I'd love to read it.
(49:51):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And then when does this telescope come online next year then?
So I think it's supposed to start operation maybe in the winter of 2025, but science operations
begin in the summer of 2025.
(50:11):
So it's going to be a pretty cool, you know, pretty busy time.
Yeah, yeah.
Exciting times, exciting times, exciting times for fusion too next year.
Absolutely.
Yeah, big timelines.
That's awesome.
Well, this was great.
(50:31):
Thank you so much for doing this, Constantine.
Thank you so much, Priyanka.
I really appreciate it.
(51:02):
For scale, right, 150 Tesla, okay, is, you know, about a million Gals, which is the typical
magnetic field of like a white dwarf star.
So such fields are not, yeah, they're not, you know, out of this world, so to speak.
(51:27):
Like they happen all the time in astrophysics.
And there's nothing scary, nothing, nothing scary happens when you reach those, those
out.
Like you can elevate a frog pretty well with the strontium magnetic field, but that's about,
you know, that's about the consequence.
So yeah, there's nothing, nothing horrific.
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