May 14, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode, we feature Ruben Fair, a Board Advisor at Kronos Fusion Energy and a leading expert in magnet design and magnetic shielding. With a career spanning over three decades, Ruben's experience is rooted in both industrial and research-based roles. He has led significant projects at Oxford Instruments, General Electric Power Conversion, and Jefferson Laboratory, contributing to the design and operation of superconducting magnets, hydro generators, and other groundbreaking technologies.
Ruben's profile : https://www.linkedin.com/in/rubenfair/
Ruben on research gate : https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Ruben-J-Fair-2052422318
Today, Ruben plays a pivotal role at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, where he leads the US ITER team responsible for designing and constructing diagnostic instruments for the international fusion experiment ITER. At Kronos Fusion Energy, Ruben's expertise in magnet design and shielding is instrumental in developing the S.M.A.R.T. fusion energy generator, a key step towards clean and sustainable energy.
Join us as we dive deep into Ruben's journey, from his early days in heavy power engineering to his current role in fusion energy. We'll explore the challenges, innovations, and future prospects of fusion technology. If you're interested in cutting-edge engineering, superconducting magnets, and the path towards a fusion-powered future, this episode is for you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Chronos Fusion Energy Corporate Podcast.
(00:14):
I'm your host Priyanka Ford, founder of Chronos Fusion Energy.
This podcast explores the latest in fusion energy and the incredible individuals driving
its advancements.
Our special guest today is Ruben Fair, one of the brightest minds in magnet design and
magnetic shielding, whose career has left a profound impact on both industrial and research
(00:39):
sectors.
Ruben's journey into the world of magnets began with an electrical engineering degree
from Imperial College London, followed by a PhD in the same field.
His early career focused on heavy power engineering, transmission lines, and hydro generators,
leading him to work with the joint European Taurus, JET, where he got his first taste
(01:05):
of nuclear fusion technology.
While at Oxford Instruments, Ruben expanded his expertise in superconducting magnets,
working on projects ranging from small academic magnets to large scale systems for national
laboratories.
His work there involved superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance and physics
(01:29):
experiments, building his reputation as a leader in the field.
After more than a decade at Oxford Instruments, Ruben continued his journey at Converti, leading
a technical team in developing hydro generators using high temperature superconducting materials.
(01:52):
His expertise in magnet design and magnetic shielding has been integral to projects at
General Electric, Power Conversion, and Jefferson Laboratory, where he oversaw the design and
commissioning of superconducting magnets for a significant upgrade to their accelerator.
Recently, Ruben was part of the fusion energy community at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory,
(02:19):
leading the US Eater team responsible for designing and constructing diagnostic instruments
for the international fusion experiment.
His extensive knowledge and hands-on experience with superconducting magnets are critical
for developing the smart fusion energy generator at Kronos Fusion Energy.
(02:43):
In this episode, we explore Ruben's extensive career, discuss the intricacies of magnet
design, and dwell into the challenges and breakthroughs in the realm of fusion energy.
Get ready to learn from one of the industry's most knowledgeable experts.
Let's get into the Kronos Fusion Energy podcast with Ruben Fair.
(03:10):
We always start this, Ruben, with asking everyone how you got into your specific profession.
So what got you interested in magnets?
Well, I graduated as an electrical engineer.
I did my first degree and my PhD in electrical engineering, primarily heavy electrical engineering.
(03:34):
So power transmission, motors, generators, which of course are essentially electromagnets,
rotating electromagnets.
So I did that for about five years, designing hydroelectric generators, essentially for
pumped storage schemes all over the world, a very exciting time.
(03:58):
Traveled to a couple of countries to help install some of these machines, which was
an eye-opener for me as well.
First time out of college, going out in the field.
So I did that for five years, a hydroelectric power generator design.
And even then, at that very early stage, so this was back in about 1988, 89, 90, thereabouts,
(04:28):
I got involved in the refurbishment of the jet machine.
So the jet machine in Oxford, the joint European Taurus, is essentially a vertical shaft hydro
generator, spun up to speed by very large induction machines.
And GCL Storm Large Machines, where I was working at the time, was actually the company
(04:48):
that built those two types of machine, flywheel generators and the induction motors for jet.
So that was my first introduction to, I guess, the fringes of nuclear fusion machines, fusion
engineering.
So like I said, worked at GCL Storm Large Machines for about five years, then went on
(05:10):
to Oxford Instruments, where I spent, I want to say, 13 or 14 years designing and leading
teams designing superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance, and also physics
magnets for academic institutions all around the world.
I learned from some of the best in the field in superconducting magnets during my time
(05:33):
at Oxford Instruments, which was very exciting.
So really, magnets is always, electromagnets and so on have always been part of my career,
I guess.
And it really, it hasn't changed since then.
You played with magnets as a kid, right?
(05:55):
You did.
At what age did it click that magnets could be used for these large industrial purposes?
What were you using them for?
Was jet built with a high temperature superconducting magnet?
(06:16):
Because I feel like that came way out.
No, it wasn't at all.
It was just in a conventional copper magnet.
So some of the calculations, they were really interesting because it's a pulsed machine.
So you're injecting huge amounts of current into the copper windings.
So you had to really calculate temperature rise on these machine windings very, very
(06:39):
accurately.
And that level of detail kind of interested me in a kind of nerdish sort of way.
Yeah, so it was really interesting.
And so the new version that's being built now is using HTS magnets out there, right?
(06:59):
The new jet, I think it's called.
So they've got a variety of projects out there.
To be honest, I've not really kept up to date with what they're doing out there, but some
of them, they use a mixture of LTS and HTS windings.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
(07:19):
Were you then, how did you get into high temperature superconducting magnets?
So when I was at Oxford Instruments, so designing the superconducting magnets in a nuclear magnetic
resonance type magnets and magnets for physics experiments, we used just low temperature
superconductors.
(07:40):
So Ni-Vin titanium, Ni-Vin 3 tin conductors.
But there was a lot of interest out in the commercial world using HTS magnets.
I then applied for a position in a company that's kind of a strange story, very small
world, because when I first started my career working on hydro generators, it was a company
(08:05):
called GEC Alstom Large Machines.
I then left, went to Oxford Instruments, worked with low temperature superconductors, and
then GEC Alstom Large Machines at the time was bought up by Alstom, and they split off
and formed a smaller company, and they were doing work with HTS materials.
So that really interested me.
So I went and joined them to lead up a technical team, and there we built, designed, built,
(08:34):
tested a hydro generator using HTS materials on the rotor winding.
We also worked on superconducting propulsion motors for ships and military vessels, and
we also started looking at superconducting wind turbine generators.
Again, all using HTS materials.
(08:55):
So that was my first foray really into HTS, into the HTS world.
Wow.
Yeah, there's so many, there's so many industrial uses for magnets that you wouldn't really
think of.
What is the one that came out of left field for you?
(09:16):
What is the one use for HTS that you never thought we would be using magnets for?
Just purely.
I think the hydro generator that we worked on.
Even at that point in time, people were already not just thinking about, but were actually
starting to build R&D machines and even fault current limiters, for example, using HTS materials.
(09:42):
So people had already started to do that, even transformers.
But really the hydro generator was a really interesting one for us.
And for me in particular, we were using HTS windings on the rotor.
So the rotor is rotating at 214 revolutions per minute.
And HTS windings rotating at that kind of speed.
(10:04):
They had to be enclosed in a vacuum chamber.
So the whole vacuum chamber had to rotate at that speed.
And we had to still be able to pipe cold helium down the shaft, across a rotating coupling
interface into that rotor.
So that really was the real, not just a challenge, but a huge interest for me and my team.
(10:29):
I think we were, I wouldn't say the first to do it, but probably one of the first groups
to do that kind of thing.
Now that sounds like a really big engineering challenge.
It was, it really was.
I mean, system integration there was so, was a huge challenge for us.
We were kind of competing with conventional technology, copper windings and all the rest
(10:52):
of it in the motor and generator field.
And here we were trying to merge conventional technology so that the stator was essentially
conventional technology, steel, copper, or the rotor was the unique element employing
these HTS windings.
Wow.
That's wonderful.
(11:15):
Did you work on MRI machines at GE?
Was that something that you were part of?
No, well, kind of.
So kind of, yes.
The answer is yes and no.
So at GE, so this was in the Global Research Center up in upstate New York.
So there I was primarily focused on superconducting wind turbine generators and we had got some
(11:36):
funding.
We managed to win some funding from the DOE.
And really the question we asked ourselves was how do we get a superconducting machine
like this for an off-traw wind turbine to market in the quickest way possible?
So we thought, well, let's leverage technology that we already know that works.
(11:57):
So MRI machines, so GE of course builds MRI machines using LTS conductors.
So there what we said we would do is let's use the MRI LTS technology and implement that
in a superconducting wind turbine generator for offshore use.
And you can imagine that in itself brings a lot of challenges to the table.
(12:20):
You know, we're talking about an offshore turbine, which meant that whatever technology
you were installing out there had to be immensely reliable.
You couldn't get out there to maintain it very often.
So really we had to think about all, think about that from day one.
And that guided our design for the whole machine.
(12:42):
Interesting.
So you have been specifically energy centric.
It sounds like.
Was there a reason that you choose energy?
Is there a philosophical reason or is that just one?
Yeah, I think I don't think I had any great plans really to get into that field.
(13:08):
At college when I did my first degree and second degree, I'd always been interested
in the heavy side of electrical engineering or the motors, generators, power transmission.
And in fact, I did lots of projects at college centered around heavy electrical engineering
and even my and and and I think that was what drove me into that field and never looked
(13:33):
back, never, never had any regrets that there is so much out there in the field of electrical
engineering and being able to employ superconductivity in that particular field was was very exciting.
Yeah, I can see that.
I think I think there's something about energy where you see it every single day in your
life, you see the effect of it.
(13:55):
So I think working on it makes it exciting because you know that you're you're kind of
enabling new types of energy.
I think that that would that would drive me.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So thinking about fusion, then Ruben, when when did you first start working on on anything
(14:17):
to do with fusion and why why why what did you know that there would all the day I mean,
it's pretty optimistic to be in the fusion energy field today.
But did you know that it was going to be like this?
No, not at all.
You know, back when I was growing up in Brunei, I must have been in my late teens, early teens,
(14:42):
late teens.
I'd read an article about the jet machine.
I'd never come across anything like that before.
Fusion technology, fusion engineering didn't know anything about it at all.
So years later, after I graduated, started my first job at GC.
And like I said, you know, I had started working on part of the refurbishment of the existing
(15:06):
jet machine.
So to be able to actually walk into that machine hall and look at that machine that I'd read
about all those years ago was absolutely fascinating to me.
So I would say that would have been my really my first introduction to fusion engineering
and as part of that job, because we were the hydro generator design team.
(15:27):
And like I said, you know, jet was built around a hydro generator, essentially a flywheel
generator.
We also did some work for a university in Spain, again, looking at flywheel generators,
but this time a horizontal shaft machine.
So my first job straight out of college, I had already started to work on the fringes
(15:48):
of nuclear fusion energy.
But then, of course, you know, when I moved into the field of superconducting magnets,
that was really nothing to do with fusion at all.
So, you know, 14, 15, 20 years, I didn't do anything to do with fusion at all until much
more recently in the last three, four years when I got back into it.
(16:10):
Yeah.
Was it was it the popularity of the Repco tape?
Was that what brought you back?
Because that was about four or five years ago.
Well, not really that so much.
Obviously, the tape manufacture and use of that tape in fabrication of large magnets
(16:34):
still has its challenges and folks are working to resolve those challenges.
But about three years ago, I was approached to head up the US ETA team at the Princeton
Plasma Physics Laboratory, the team that's designing six diagnostic systems for the ETA
machine in France.
And that was a great opportunity for me to get back into the field of fusion, fusion
(16:58):
engineering.
Now, back then, you know, I didn't know very much about fusion engineering.
I knew even less about fusion diagnostics systems.
But here was an opportunity to work with an extremely high skilled, highly skilled team
in one of the premier fusion laboratories in the world on a global multinational project
(17:22):
like like like ETA in France.
So who was hired to turn that down?
And as it turned out, I learned an enormous amount working with these folks at Princeton.
I learned a lot about the ETA project, actually visited the machine at site and was totally
blown away, completely impressed by the enormous engineering challenges that still exist today,
(17:48):
even though it's 70% complete, and will continue to face the project as they continue towards
completion.
But the dedication of the team, commitment of the team, not just at ETA, but also at
Princeton, really drove me forward and made it a very, very worthwhile experience at Princeton.
(18:11):
What made it so great?
It's like almost an impossible engineering endeavor.
We're talking about plasma tens of millions of degrees, and we are designing diagnostic
instruments, essentially six of them, six huge diagnostic instruments to essentially
(18:32):
punch through the vacuum vessel that contains the plasma and look directly at this really
hot plasma to be able to get data from it, use that data to be able to control the machine.
(18:53):
Huge engineering challenge, something that very few people have done successfully.
Obviously, there are R&D machines all around the world which do that kind of thing.
But like I said, they're R&D machines, they are very much in a laboratory environment
where you can essentially get in there and adjust your instruments if they go wrong or
(19:15):
don't work.
But in ETA, we had to design from day one instruments that were highly reliable, pretty
much maintenance free, because once you install them, you're not going to be able to touch
them for 10 or 20 years.
And that all added to the excitement of working on a project like this, and especially such
(19:37):
a multinational global project.
Right, yeah.
And you definitely seem to like an engineering challenge.
So that makes sense.
I would say that's just about as complicated as it gets.
Funny, you haven't worked on any space things.
(19:58):
Have you sent anything into space?
Am I missing something?
Not directly, no.
But we did, again, this is going back to the Oxford Instruments days, we did work on small
superconducting magnets and systems which were intended to go into space.
To be honest, I can't remember if they ever actually did make it there.
(20:23):
But we also did design and manufacture superconducting machines for, say, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
and NASA.
So not exactly going into space, but land-based systems.
Well, there's still time.
It's interesting, so you've worked on vacuum chambers, cryogenics, low temperature, high
(20:54):
temperature, all of those have so many industrial applications.
How, 50 years from now, which one of these inventions do you think we'll be using all
(21:14):
the time, but we don't know now that we would be?
Like as humanity, is it vacuum chambers?
Would it be magnets?
Cryogenics, perhaps?
I think we're always going to need magnets in one shape or form or the other.
It just depends on what those magnets look like.
(21:34):
We've come a long way, of course, from electromagnets, copper windings, for example.
We obviously have permanent magnets of various types.
Then we move into low temperature superconductors, high temperature superconductors.
I think the holy grail, of course, for any engineer in any engineering field is room
(21:56):
temperature, superconducting magnets, or something close to room temperature.
50 years from now, will we get there?
Who knows?
Possibly, maybe.
If we do get very close to room temperature operation, then maybe cryogenics won't be
so important.
Maybe vacuum chambers won't be so important, but certainly magnets in some shape or form
(22:16):
will always be required, and heading down the fusion route, magnets are absolutely key
for some of the types of machines that we're talking about.
What are room temperature superconductors, Ruben?
Essentially, superconductors that have no resistance, so little to no power loss, but
working pretty much at room temperature, so you don't need to cool them down to cryogenic
(22:40):
temperatures.
Cryogenic plant for conventional superconducting magnets today, whether low temperature or
high temperature, are still expensive.
They can be reliable, but they're not maybe reliable enough to compete with conventional
technology, copper-based technology that's out there.
(23:02):
Really, room temperature superconducting magnets, I think, is something that everyone's trying
to work towards.
Working there is very, very difficult.
We have to find the right materials.
We have to find the right environment to be able to manufacture these materials.
Of course, also, get these materials in a form that can be fabricated into magnets.
(23:25):
There's no point just having a little pellet of a magnet.
You need to be able to have it in a form that you can wind magnets from or machine it into
a magnetic form.
There are all these manufacturing hurdles that we still have to overcome, irrespective
of the R&D that needs to go into developing these materials in the first place.
(23:53):
There is a possibility of having a room temperature superconducting sort of a repco tape in the
same form as a repco tape, where you could wrap it around different things to make whatever
shape you want.
But for us, it would be toroidal field coils.
Am I right?
(24:15):
I would like to think so.
Right now, where we are in the development of these types of materials, it's almost like
science fiction, trying to predict what's going to be available in 40, 50 years' time.
But certainly, I'd like to think that, yes, we could develop those sorts of materials
in the future.
Of course, the research that's been going on and has been going on for decades will
(24:38):
feed into that work.
We were talking to Sushma last week.
We were doing the same thing with her.
She's got promoted to running one of the AI teams at Google, the payments AI team.
We spoke a lot about Google's recent breakthrough with materials, where they had a quantum computer
(25:08):
come up with, I think, 380,000 material compositions.
And they said that it surpassed about 800 years' worth of...
It's not for a quantum computer.
It would take us about 800 years to get these material compositions.
If we threw a lot of computing towards finding a room temperature superconductor, that's
(25:37):
a game changer, yeah?
Absolutely, yes.
Computing has come such a long way in the decades since we first started using these
sorts of machines.
Quantum computing, AI, the combination of those two, I think, is going to be phenomenal
for not just fusion engineering, but pretty much every aspect of our life.
(25:59):
AI, in itself, it's already started to be used for predicting plasma behaviour in fusion
machines.
If you can predict plasma behaviour to a sufficient level of accuracy, you can use that to control
the machine.
That's already one area where AI's been used.
And certainly, material development, that's another key area.
(26:23):
And of course, that's all in the computing machine itself.
But then you do need to be able to extract relevant information to be able to start doing
small R&D projects in the lab, maybe build prototype machines.
And then that will be the next step forward, actually proving it in the field.
That's exciting.
(26:44):
It is, really.
What a great time.
This is kind of circling back, just one quick question, with the room temperature superconductor
hypothetically then, why would you not need a vacuum chamber?
Well, it does depend on what type of room temperature superconductor they come up with.
(27:08):
The vacuum chamber being as it is today and how it's used today for superconducting machines,
there's essentially a thermos flask, a thermal flask, so that to essentially keep your superconductor
and whatever medium it's in, for example, liquid helium, to keep it cold and isolate
it from the outside environment.
(27:31):
Now, if you have a room temperature superconductor, in theory, you could say, okay, I have a magnet
which just sits on my desk and works.
It doesn't need to be isolated from the environment.
So, if that's really the case, then you don't need a vacuum chamber.
You don't need your thermo flask.
Oh, man.
Wow.
So, the cost of this thing, depending on how much this room temperature material and process
(27:56):
would cost, it would like, we could remove 50% of the cost.
And wow, interesting.
Yeah, but again, almost in the realms of science fiction.
I feel the feeling.
HTS materials were discovered when?
(28:17):
In the early 80s, mid 80s, something like that, and even today, right?
2024.
And do we really see lots of HTS machines out there?
Not as many as I would have expected.
There's so many challenges.
So, getting to room temperature superconductors, how long will it take to get there?
(28:37):
Who knows?
But like we just said, with AI, quantum computing and such like, and whatever the next bit of
technology is in terms of material development, it could halve the time to get to room temperature
superconductors.
Maybe.
It's all guesswork, of course, at the minute.
(28:57):
Interesting.
Yeah, that's, that's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
There's, again, I feel like the big thing that we say in fusion is that it's all engineering.
It's all engineering.
(29:20):
How do you approach an over the top difficult engineering challenge?
You clearly seek it, but how do you approach it?
Yeah, how I've always approached engineering challenges like that.
And you know, whether it's to do with a conventional motor generator or a wind turbine generator
(29:41):
or superconducting machine, always start with the end objective.
You know, what do you want your machine or your component to do?
Number one, what is its operating environment?
You know, how is it going to be used?
So if you take a superconducting wind turbine generator, for example, is it going to be
(30:02):
land based?
Is it going to be offshore?
So you start out, I think, with that final objective.
Then I've always kind of worked backwards from there to say, OK, to get to that objective
in this time scale, what technology building blocks do I need?
So if I take again the superconducting wind turbine generator, as an example, the offshore
(30:24):
machine, one of the key building blocks there is an extremely reliable, pretty much maintenance
free cryo cooler, OK, to be able to cool the superconducting machines.
So do we have that today?
I would say we are nearly there.
There are lots of laboratory based cryo coolers available on the market today, commercially
(30:46):
available.
But how are they going to operate in an environment where you have wind, you've got sea salt,
you've got spray, you've got vibrations, crazy temperatures, really high temperatures and
really cold temperatures.
How is it going to operate reliably in that environment?
So that's one of the key technology building blocks.
(31:08):
And then I carry on back down that systems engineering path to say, OK, what other technology
building blocks are we missing today?
Can we use technology that we've already proven and apply it to our machine or do we need
to develop something that's completely new?
And it's the developing something that's completely new that may and will need the funding and
(31:34):
time to get right.
So I think pretty much every engineering challenge can be approached in that manner.
Yeah, it sounds like you're applying a little bit of game theory there as well.
Cool.
What are the big challenges now for fusion energy then other than engineering supply
(32:00):
chains for sure, perhaps?
But what do you see as problems that we will need to solve over the next decade in order
to enable large scale fusion energy commercialization?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Funding obviously is key and to be able to obtain and keep funding flowing, I think we
(32:26):
have to be able to change people's perception of what fusion is all about.
OK, that's easier said than done.
If you look at ETA and fusion's been around for a long time writing in papers and in books.
And of course, ETA has been going for a very long time.
But if you look at the costs and how they've escalated, political changes can affect funding
(32:52):
and people's perceptions of fusion.
So I think that's very important really to get people on your side to be able to believe
in what you're trying to achieve.
And like you pointed out earlier, I think Priyanka, that we are in a very exciting situation
right now where there is a lot of interest in fusion.
There is for now at least funds that are available that we could use.
(33:17):
But if we cannot deliver in a suitable or in a reasonable time frame, then again, that
interest is going to wane in public.
And that really could be the stumbling block for us.
So yes, we do have the engineering challenges.
We're talking about materials which don't even maybe exist today.
(33:38):
And we're trying to make a higher field of machines, more compact machines.
So all those things certainly are huge challenges.
But I think one of the biggest challenges we have is folks' perception of fusion in
general.
Yeah.
And how would we go about convincing our brothers and sisters on this planet that this time
(34:08):
it's for real?
This time we can...
What's the...
Yeah.
What points should we make to these guys?
That's a really tough question to answer.
I don't think I've got a complete answer for you there.
But really, people know what they know.
(34:33):
We understand what technology we have today.
We understand the science that we have today.
We don't really fully understand what science and technology we might have in 20, 30, 40,
50 years time when we're talking about room temperature superconducting magnets.
So to start off, I think first of all, we have to have a realistic concept.
(34:54):
What do I mean by that?
So maybe we say, okay, how are we going to be developing our particular fusion machine?
We are using knowledge, technology, science that we understand today, science that we've
already proven.
So we start out with that building block, if you like.
(35:15):
And then we have to have a realistic and reliable set of steps to take us to the next great
breakthrough.
So we must always be open to, hey, if we come up with a new material, how can we use that
in our machine that we are designing?
So I think having that very realistic storyline, starting with where we are today with technology
(35:37):
and science that everyone understands and accepts, I think will go a long way towards
convincing people that, hey, these guys know what they're talking about.
If we look at their plans, they're taking a very logical stepwise approach to the future.
I think that will go a long way towards convincing people.
(35:58):
I feel like we've done that at Chronos.
I think I wanted to text you the other day.
We got our patent for smart approved by the USPTO, by the way.
Like this is awesome.
Oh, great.
And you remember from our board meetings that we've kind of selected our design based on
(36:21):
what's tried and true and kind of what works.
So we've obviously, it's like magnetic confinement, HTS magnets.
The only thing that I think we have an uphill battle on is the helium three fusion, which
(36:42):
Dr. Kulsinski has been helping us figure out the plasma engineering aspects of that since
December.
But I feel like we've very much sought out to build something that's been proved out.
You can contradict me completely with everything that I said.
(37:02):
So what is your then what would be the fusion energy device that is best suited for large
scale commercialization then?
Yeah, I don't know whether I've got a great answer for that.
(37:23):
I don't think anyone does.
I was hoping I could throw you off.
Yeah, I mean, if I think back to the days when people are building huge power stations
where they're coal fired, oil fired on nuclear power stations, you know, really, if you again
coming back to the systems engineering approach where you say, okay, what's my final objective?
(37:46):
Do I want to be able to have essentially a power station in the middle of a city which
is providing reliable, clean energy to the public, start off with that objective and
then what does that tell you in terms of constraints?
It may say, okay, you need it to be compact, you need it to be safe, you need it to have
(38:09):
great shielding.
And that may then drive the internal workings of your fusion machine, right?
You know, determination of what the internal workings might be, whether it's helium-3,
whether it's helium deuterium or something else.
So that's how we got to start.
(38:30):
But like you pointed out very correctly, we've started out, I think, with a concept that
people accept and say, hey, look, a lot of that technology has already been proven.
Okay, the guys are here at Kronos are pushing the envelope in certain areas, but it's not
impossible to see that they could do what they say they're going to do.
(38:52):
And then from there, you take on the next step, right?
Talk about helium-3 and so on.
So I think this stepwise approach, I think, is a very important way to do it.
Yeah.
And we also have a relatively leisure timeline.
So I think we want to take our time and figure all this stuff out.
(39:14):
How long have you been a member of IEEE?
How does that work?
Do you just, do all engineers just join?
Because that seems to be the case.
I don't know about all engineers joining.
I actually joined the UK branch.
It's called the IET back in the UK when I was a student.
(39:38):
So I became a student member.
And the reason we kind of did that was, I guess you get access to journals, publications,
you get to meet and work with people in that particular field.
And I just kept my membership going over the years.
And I found that by being a member either of the IET in the UK or the IEEE here in the
(40:01):
States, you get to sit on review boards, you get pretty much first access to publications,
you know, folks writing papers, and you get to see their work, you get to comment and
edit their work, you get to interact with them.
And that's very interesting and exciting.
You see all the new, you know, the younger generation coming out, the new stuff that
(40:25):
they're working on, which is extremely exciting and interesting.
So I think that's one of the things that drove me to join these professional institutions.
The other is you get to maybe not quite shape how the younger generation comes up, but you
get to maybe provide them with some guidance and mentorship, either via, you know, direct
(40:52):
reviewing of their papers or with direct interaction with them.
And I've done both in the past.
Yeah, how do we inspire young people to get into magnets then, Ruben?
How do we make it exciting?
I mean, there are so many applications.
(41:13):
We can shoot things into spaces using magnets.
Right, right.
I mean, I think, you know, electrical engineering in particular, and of course, I always talk
about electrical engineering because that's what I am, right?
It's such a hugely wide field.
You know, you've talked about biomedical engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering.
(41:35):
All these are very, very huge fields.
And just within electrical engineering itself, you know, magnets really is, I wouldn't say
it's a small part of electrical engineering, but certainly it's an important part.
And I think just getting the young folk interested in engineering in general, I think, is a huge
thing.
(41:56):
And you could do it in a number of ways.
One of the things that we do here at Jefferson Lab, for example, and I think a lot of the
national labs do this, and I think private companies do it as well, is reaching out to
the local community in high schools, for example, local universities, get them involved, bring
them into the lab, show them the exciting things that a national lab does in terms of
(42:19):
research, development, experiments that physicists are carrying out.
And I think that excites people a lot, the students coming in to see what we're doing.
So I think that's the first step.
Secondly, is being very open with them.
They will have lots of questions, so be free about sharing your experience with them.
(42:44):
And that's how it starts, you know, at a very young age, I think, at least that's how I
got into it.
Yeah, I feel like our national labs, I'm so proud of them.
I'm just so proud, like, because, you know, there's so much political turmoil, like we're
on the precipice of World War III and, you know, school shootings and whatnot, but the
(43:09):
national labs, you know, they're winning every day, like they're doing what we're supposed
to be doing.
And it keeps me optimistic.
You've really been part of a lot of breakthroughs, Ruben.
So kind of just last question, what is like the biggest breakthrough that you've worked
(43:32):
on that you're very proud of?
And what's next for Ruben?
What's the next breakthrough that you're excited to see come to fruition?
Yeah, I don't know whether I would call it a breakthrough because of being in the field
for such a long time.
It's almost like a natural progression for me.
(43:52):
But at Jefferson Lab, and I joined Jefferson Lab in 2013, I think, they were already like
part way through full upgrade of the accelerator at the lab here in Virginia, you know, increasing
the energy of the electron beam, which would then enable a whole new branch of physics
(44:14):
to be experimented with.
So and that involved a lot of superconducting magnets in the experimental halls.
We've got four experimental halls here at the lab.
And each hall has its own specialty in terms of experimental nuclear physics.
So getting involved in that, helping to drive that project to completion was, I think, personally
(44:38):
for me, I think that was an eye opener as to how these really talented people could
work so well together.
And of course, it wasn't just a national project.
We had collaborators from around the world contributing to this project.
And of course, that machine, of course, has now been upgraded.
(44:59):
It's been running since 2018, 2019.
It's producing fantastic results, which we have been publishing several papers a year
on these experiments.
And producing PhD in nuclear physics, PhDs here in the States, all from Jefferson Labs.
(45:23):
So I think being part of that community, being able to provide equipment for the next generation
of young scientists, I think I would consider that a huge breakthrough.
What kind of results do you publish with the electron beam accelerator?
(45:46):
Just curious.
Right.
So Jefferson Labs' expertise really is delving into the nucleus, protons, neutrons, looking
at quarks, gluons that hold everything together, understanding the nature of matter.
So that really is what we're doing.
Really delving into the nucleus itself.
(46:10):
And recently, what I say recently, maybe the last couple of years, we've even published
papers on measuring the radius of a proton, for example.
Now to the layman, the man in the street, you could ask quite rightly, how is this relevant
to me?
So maybe measuring the radius of a proton is not entirely relevant to the man in the
(46:33):
street, but there are lots of spin-offs that come out of nuclear physics experiments.
And one of the huge spin-offs is being able to tackle cancer.
So using essentially an accelerator to be able to target cancer cells in a human patient
very, very successfully.
(46:55):
So that's, I think, very obvious, maybe not obvious to everyone, but a really useful spin-off
that's come out of the nuclear physics work that we've done here at Jefferson Lab.
My God, how does that work?
Are you going to make a compact version of this, like an MRI machine, and house it in
(47:20):
the hospital, or do you take a sample from a patient and take it to the lab?
So these machines already exist.
In fact, down here in Hampton Roads, we've got a machine that does exactly that, and
there are machines being built all over the world to do this.
As you might imagine, these machines aren't as compact as we'd like them to be.
(47:42):
They are the size of a house, so they're extremely expensive.
The treatment is extremely expensive, so we're working to maybe reduce cost, maybe reduce
size, but nevertheless, the core technology will still be there.
In fact, we've got experts here at the lab who regularly advise on producing more of
(48:05):
these facilities worldwide.
What's next for me, though?
Well, I think probably fusion.
Like I said, I've been dabbling with fusion a little bit on the edges for quite a number
of years, all the way back to 1989, 1990.
Now of course, I've got the opportunity with Chronos to actually really get more involved,
(48:29):
be right in the heart of what we're trying to do in the fusion engineering field.
So that is a truly exciting time.
Wow.
Yeah, I can't wait.
It's an exciting future, and you're on the forefront of so many things, Ruben.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Welcome to the Chronos Fusion Energy Corporate Podcast.
(00:14):
I'm your host Priyanka Ford, founder of Chronos Fusion Energy.
This podcast explores the latest in fusion energy and the incredible individuals driving
its advancements.
Our special guest today is Ruben Fair, one of the brightest minds in magnet design and
magnetic shielding, whose career has left a profound impact on both industrial and research
(00:39):
sectors.
Ruben's journey into the world of magnets began with an electrical engineering degree
from Imperial College London, followed by a PhD in the same field.
His early career focused on heavy power engineering, transmission lines, and hydro generators,
leading him to work with the joint European Taurus, JET, where he got his first taste
(01:05):
of nuclear fusion technology.
While at Oxford Instruments, Ruben expanded his expertise in superconducting magnets,
working on projects ranging from small academic magnets to large scale systems for national
laboratories.
His work there involved superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance and physics
(01:29):
experiments, building his reputation as a leader in the field.
After more than a decade at Oxford Instruments, Ruben continued his journey at Converti, leading
a technical team in developing hydro generators using high temperature superconducting materials.
(01:52):
His expertise in magnet design and magnetic shielding has been integral to projects at
General Electric, Power Conversion, and Jefferson Laboratory, where he oversaw the design and
commissioning of superconducting magnets for a significant upgrade to their accelerator.
Recently, Ruben was part of the fusion energy community at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory,
(02:19):
leading the US Eater team responsible for designing and constructing diagnostic instruments
for the international fusion experiment.
His extensive knowledge and hands-on experience with superconducting magnets are critical
for developing the smart fusion energy generator at Kronos Fusion Energy.
(02:43):
In this episode, we explore Ruben's extensive career, discuss the intricacies of magnet
design, and dwell into the challenges and breakthroughs in the realm of fusion energy.
Get ready to learn from one of the industry's most knowledgeable experts.
Let's get into the Kronos Fusion Energy podcast with Ruben Fair.
(03:10):
We always start this, Ruben, with asking everyone how you got into your specific profession.
So what got you interested in magnets?
Well, I graduated as an electrical engineer.
I did my first degree and my PhD in electrical engineering, primarily heavy electrical engineering.
(03:34):
So power transmission, motors, generators, which of course are essentially electromagnets,
rotating electromagnets.
So I did that for about five years, designing hydroelectric generators, essentially for
pumped storage schemes all over the world, a very exciting time.
(03:58):
Traveled to a couple of countries to help install some of these machines, which was
an eye-opener for me as well.
First time out of college, going out in the field.
So I did that for five years, a hydroelectric power generator design.
And even then, at that very early stage, so this was back in about 1988, 89, 90, thereabouts,
(04:28):
I got involved in the refurbishment of the jet machine.
So the jet machine in Oxford, the joint European Taurus, is essentially a vertical shaft hydro
generator, spun up to speed by very large induction machines.
And GCL Storm Large Machines, where I was working at the time, was actually the company
(04:48):
that built those two types of machine, flywheel generators and the induction motors for jet.
So that was my first introduction to, I guess, the fringes of nuclear fusion machines, fusion
engineering.
So like I said, worked at GCL Storm Large Machines for about five years, then went on
(05:10):
to Oxford Instruments, where I spent, I want to say, 13 or 14 years designing and leading
teams designing superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance, and also physics
magnets for academic institutions all around the world.
I learned from some of the best in the field in superconducting magnets during my time
(05:33):
at Oxford Instruments, which was very exciting.
So really, magnets is always, electromagnets and so on have always been part of my career,
I guess.
And it really, it hasn't changed since then.
You played with magnets as a kid, right?
(05:55):
You did.
At what age did it click that magnets could be used for these large industrial purposes?
What were you using them for?
Was jet built with a high temperature superconducting magnet?
(06:16):
Because I feel like that came way out.
No, it wasn't at all.
It was just in a conventional copper magnet.
So some of the calculations, they were really interesting because it's a pulsed machine.
So you're injecting huge amounts of current into the copper windings.
So you had to really calculate temperature rise on these machine windings very, very
(06:39):
accurately.
And that level of detail kind of interested me in a kind of nerdish sort of way.
Yeah, so it was really interesting.
And so the new version that's being built now is using HTS magnets out there, right?
(06:59):
The new jet, I think it's called.
So they've got a variety of projects out there.
To be honest, I've not really kept up to date with what they're doing out there, but some
of them, they use a mixture of LTS and HTS windings.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
(07:19):
Were you then, how did you get into high temperature superconducting magnets?
So when I was at Oxford Instruments, so designing the superconducting magnets in a nuclear magnetic
resonance type magnets and magnets for physics experiments, we used just low temperature
superconductors.
(07:40):
So Ni-Vin titanium, Ni-Vin 3 tin conductors.
But there was a lot of interest out in the commercial world using HTS magnets.
I then applied for a position in a company that's kind of a strange story, very small
world, because when I first started my career working on hydro generators, it was a company
(08:05):
called GEC Alstom Large Machines.
I then left, went to Oxford Instruments, worked with low temperature superconductors, and
then GEC Alstom Large Machines at the time was bought up by Alstom, and they split off
and formed a smaller company, and they were doing work with HTS materials.
So that really interested me.
So I went and joined them to lead up a technical team, and there we built, designed, built,
(08:34):
tested a hydro generator using HTS materials on the rotor winding.
We also worked on superconducting propulsion motors for ships and military vessels, and
we also started looking at superconducting wind turbine generators.
Again, all using HTS materials.
(08:55):
So that was my first foray really into HTS, into the HTS world.
Wow.
Yeah, there's so many, there's so many industrial uses for magnets that you wouldn't really
think of.
What is the one that came out of left field for you?
(09:16):
What is the one use for HTS that you never thought we would be using magnets for?
Just purely.
I think the hydro generator that we worked on.
Even at that point in time, people were already not just thinking about, but were actually
starting to build R&D machines and even fault current limiters, for example, using HTS materials.
(09:42):
So people had already started to do that, even transformers.
But really the hydro generator was a really interesting one for us.
And for me in particular, we were using HTS windings on the rotor.
So the rotor is rotating at 214 revolutions per minute.
And HTS windings rotating at that kind of speed.
(10:04):
They had to be enclosed in a vacuum chamber.
So the whole vacuum chamber had to rotate at that speed.
And we had to still be able to pipe cold helium down the shaft, across a rotating coupling
interface into that rotor.
So that really was the real, not just a challenge, but a huge interest for me and my team.
(10:29):
I think we were, I wouldn't say the first to do it, but probably one of the first groups
to do that kind of thing.
Now that sounds like a really big engineering challenge.
It was, it really was.
I mean, system integration there was so, was a huge challenge for us.
We were kind of competing with conventional technology, copper windings and all the rest
(10:52):
of it in the motor and generator field.
And here we were trying to merge conventional technology so that the stator was essentially
conventional technology, steel, copper, or the rotor was the unique element employing
these HTS windings.
Wow.
That's wonderful.
(11:15):
Did you work on MRI machines at GE?
Was that something that you were part of?
No, well, kind of.
So kind of, yes.
The answer is yes and no.
So at GE, so this was in the Global Research Center up in upstate New York.
So there I was primarily focused on superconducting wind turbine generators and we had got some
(11:36):
funding.
We managed to win some funding from the DOE.
And really the question we asked ourselves was how do we get a superconducting machine
like this for an off-traw wind turbine to market in the quickest way possible?
So we thought, well, let's leverage technology that we already know that works.
(11:57):
So MRI machines, so GE of course builds MRI machines using LTS conductors.
So there what we said we would do is let's use the MRI LTS technology and implement that
in a superconducting wind turbine generator for offshore use.
And you can imagine that in itself brings a lot of challenges to the table.
(12:20):
You know, we're talking about an offshore turbine, which meant that whatever technology
you were installing out there had to be immensely reliable.
You couldn't get out there to maintain it very often.
So really we had to think about all, think about that from day one.
And that guided our design for the whole machine.
(12:42):
Interesting.
So you have been specifically energy centric.
It sounds like.
Was there a reason that you choose energy?
Is there a philosophical reason or is that just one?
Yeah, I think I don't think I had any great plans really to get into that field.
(13:08):
At college when I did my first degree and second degree, I'd always been interested
in the heavy side of electrical engineering or the motors, generators, power transmission.
And in fact, I did lots of projects at college centered around heavy electrical engineering
and even my and and and I think that was what drove me into that field and never looked
(13:33):
back, never, never had any regrets that there is so much out there in the field of electrical
engineering and being able to employ superconductivity in that particular field was was very exciting.
Yeah, I can see that.
I think I think there's something about energy where you see it every single day in your
life, you see the effect of it.
(13:55):
So I think working on it makes it exciting because you know that you're you're kind of
enabling new types of energy.
I think that that would that would drive me.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So thinking about fusion, then Ruben, when when did you first start working on on anything
(14:17):
to do with fusion and why why why what did you know that there would all the day I mean,
it's pretty optimistic to be in the fusion energy field today.
But did you know that it was going to be like this?
No, not at all.
You know, back when I was growing up in Brunei, I must have been in my late teens, early teens,
(14:42):
late teens.
I'd read an article about the jet machine.
I'd never come across anything like that before.
Fusion technology, fusion engineering didn't know anything about it at all.
So years later, after I graduated, started my first job at GC.
And like I said, you know, I had started working on part of the refurbishment of the existing
(15:06):
jet machine.
So to be able to actually walk into that machine hall and look at that machine that I'd read
about all those years ago was absolutely fascinating to me.
So I would say that would have been my really my first introduction to fusion engineering
and as part of that job, because we were the hydro generator design team.
(15:27):
And like I said, you know, jet was built around a hydro generator, essentially a flywheel
generator.
We also did some work for a university in Spain, again, looking at flywheel generators,
but this time a horizontal shaft machine.
So my first job straight out of college, I had already started to work on the fringes
(15:48):
of nuclear fusion energy.
But then, of course, you know, when I moved into the field of superconducting magnets,
that was really nothing to do with fusion at all.
So, you know, 14, 15, 20 years, I didn't do anything to do with fusion at all until much
more recently in the last three, four years when I got back into it.
(16:10):
Yeah.
Was it was it the popularity of the Repco tape?
Was that what brought you back?
Because that was about four or five years ago.
Well, not really that so much.
Obviously, the tape manufacture and use of that tape in fabrication of large magnets
(16:34):
still has its challenges and folks are working to resolve those challenges.
But about three years ago, I was approached to head up the US ETA team at the Princeton
Plasma Physics Laboratory, the team that's designing six diagnostic systems for the ETA
machine in France.
And that was a great opportunity for me to get back into the field of fusion, fusion
(16:58):
engineering.
Now, back then, you know, I didn't know very much about fusion engineering.
I knew even less about fusion diagnostics systems.
But here was an opportunity to work with an extremely high skilled, highly skilled team
in one of the premier fusion laboratories in the world on a global multinational project
(17:22):
like like like ETA in France.
So who was hired to turn that down?
And as it turned out, I learned an enormous amount working with these folks at Princeton.
I learned a lot about the ETA project, actually visited the machine at site and was totally
blown away, completely impressed by the enormous engineering challenges that still exist today,
(17:48):
even though it's 70% complete, and will continue to face the project as they continue towards
completion.
But the dedication of the team, commitment of the team, not just at ETA, but also at
Princeton, really drove me forward and made it a very, very worthwhile experience at Princeton.
(18:11):
What made it so great?
It's like almost an impossible engineering endeavor.
We're talking about plasma tens of millions of degrees, and we are designing diagnostic
instruments, essentially six of them, six huge diagnostic instruments to essentially
(18:32):
punch through the vacuum vessel that contains the plasma and look directly at this really
hot plasma to be able to get data from it, use that data to be able to control the machine.
(18:53):
Huge engineering challenge, something that very few people have done successfully.
Obviously, there are R&D machines all around the world which do that kind of thing.
But like I said, they're R&D machines, they are very much in a laboratory environment
where you can essentially get in there and adjust your instruments if they go wrong or
(19:15):
don't work.
But in ETA, we had to design from day one instruments that were highly reliable, pretty
much maintenance free, because once you install them, you're not going to be able to touch
them for 10 or 20 years.
And that all added to the excitement of working on a project like this, and especially such
(19:37):
a multinational global project.
Right, yeah.
And you definitely seem to like an engineering challenge.
So that makes sense.
I would say that's just about as complicated as it gets.
Funny, you haven't worked on any space things.
(19:58):
Have you sent anything into space?
Am I missing something?
Not directly, no.
But we did, again, this is going back to the Oxford Instruments days, we did work on small
superconducting magnets and systems which were intended to go into space.
To be honest, I can't remember if they ever actually did make it there.
(20:23):
But we also did design and manufacture superconducting machines for, say, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
and NASA.
So not exactly going into space, but land-based systems.
Well, there's still time.
It's interesting, so you've worked on vacuum chambers, cryogenics, low temperature, high
(20:54):
temperature, all of those have so many industrial applications.
How, 50 years from now, which one of these inventions do you think we'll be using all
(21:14):
the time, but we don't know now that we would be?
Like as humanity, is it vacuum chambers?
Would it be magnets?
Cryogenics, perhaps?
I think we're always going to need magnets in one shape or form or the other.
It just depends on what those magnets look like.
(21:34):
We've come a long way, of course, from electromagnets, copper windings, for example.
We obviously have permanent magnets of various types.
Then we move into low temperature superconductors, high temperature superconductors.
I think the holy grail, of course, for any engineer in any engineering field is room
(21:56):
temperature, superconducting magnets, or something close to room temperature.
50 years from now, will we get there?
Who knows?
Possibly, maybe.
If we do get very close to room temperature operation, then maybe cryogenics won't be
so important.
Maybe vacuum chambers won't be so important, but certainly magnets in some shape or form
(22:16):
will always be required, and heading down the fusion route, magnets are absolutely key
for some of the types of machines that we're talking about.
What are room temperature superconductors, Ruben?
Essentially, superconductors that have no resistance, so little to no power loss, but
working pretty much at room temperature, so you don't need to cool them down to cryogenic
(22:40):
temperatures.
Cryogenic plant for conventional superconducting magnets today, whether low temperature or
high temperature, are still expensive.
They can be reliable, but they're not maybe reliable enough to compete with conventional
technology, copper-based technology that's out there.
(23:02):
Really, room temperature superconducting magnets, I think, is something that everyone's trying
to work towards.
Working there is very, very difficult.
We have to find the right materials.
We have to find the right environment to be able to manufacture these materials.
Of course, also, get these materials in a form that can be fabricated into magnets.
(23:25):
There's no point just having a little pellet of a magnet.
You need to be able to have it in a form that you can wind magnets from or machine it into
a magnetic form.
There are all these manufacturing hurdles that we still have to overcome, irrespective
of the R&D that needs to go into developing these materials in the first place.
(23:53):
There is a possibility of having a room temperature superconducting sort of a repco tape in the
same form as a repco tape, where you could wrap it around different things to make whatever
shape you want.
But for us, it would be toroidal field coils.
Am I right?
(24:15):
I would like to think so.
Right now, where we are in the development of these types of materials, it's almost like
science fiction, trying to predict what's going to be available in 40, 50 years' time.
But certainly, I'd like to think that, yes, we could develop those sorts of materials
in the future.
Of course, the research that's been going on and has been going on for decades will
(24:38):
feed into that work.
We were talking to Sushma last week.
We were doing the same thing with her.
She's got promoted to running one of the AI teams at Google, the payments AI team.
We spoke a lot about Google's recent breakthrough with materials, where they had a quantum computer
(25:08):
come up with, I think, 380,000 material compositions.
And they said that it surpassed about 800 years' worth of...
It's not for a quantum computer.
It would take us about 800 years to get these material compositions.
If we threw a lot of computing towards finding a room temperature superconductor, that's
(25:37):
a game changer, yeah?
Absolutely, yes.
Computing has come such a long way in the decades since we first started using these
sorts of machines.
Quantum computing, AI, the combination of those two, I think, is going to be phenomenal
for not just fusion engineering, but pretty much every aspect of our life.
(25:59):
AI, in itself, it's already started to be used for predicting plasma behaviour in fusion
machines.
If you can predict plasma behaviour to a sufficient level of accuracy, you can use that to control
the machine.
That's already one area where AI's been used.
And certainly, material development, that's another key area.
(26:23):
And of course, that's all in the computing machine itself.
But then you do need to be able to extract relevant information to be able to start doing
small R&D projects in the lab, maybe build prototype machines.
And then that will be the next step forward, actually proving it in the field.
That's exciting.
(26:44):
It is, really.
What a great time.
This is kind of circling back, just one quick question, with the room temperature superconductor
hypothetically then, why would you not need a vacuum chamber?
Well, it does depend on what type of room temperature superconductor they come up with.
(27:08):
The vacuum chamber being as it is today and how it's used today for superconducting machines,
there's essentially a thermos flask, a thermal flask, so that to essentially keep your superconductor
and whatever medium it's in, for example, liquid helium, to keep it cold and isolate
it from the outside environment.
(27:31):
Now, if you have a room temperature superconductor, in theory, you could say, okay, I have a magnet
which just sits on my desk and works.
It doesn't need to be isolated from the environment.
So, if that's really the case, then you don't need a vacuum chamber.
You don't need your thermo flask.
Oh, man.
Wow.
So, the cost of this thing, depending on how much this room temperature material and process
(27:56):
would cost, it would like, we could remove 50% of the cost.
And wow, interesting.
Yeah, but again, almost in the realms of science fiction.
I feel the feeling.
HTS materials were discovered when?
(28:17):
In the early 80s, mid 80s, something like that, and even today, right?
2024.
And do we really see lots of HTS machines out there?
Not as many as I would have expected.
There's so many challenges.
So, getting to room temperature superconductors, how long will it take to get there?
(28:37):
Who knows?
But like we just said, with AI, quantum computing and such like, and whatever the next bit of
technology is in terms of material development, it could halve the time to get to room temperature
superconductors.
Maybe.
It's all guesswork, of course, at the minute.
(28:57):
Interesting.
Yeah, that's, that's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
There's, again, I feel like the big thing that we say in fusion is that it's all engineering.
It's all engineering.
(29:20):
How do you approach an over the top difficult engineering challenge?
You clearly seek it, but how do you approach it?
Yeah, how I've always approached engineering challenges like that.
And you know, whether it's to do with a conventional motor generator or a wind turbine generator
(29:41):
or superconducting machine, always start with the end objective.
You know, what do you want your machine or your component to do?
Number one, what is its operating environment?
You know, how is it going to be used?
So if you take a superconducting wind turbine generator, for example, is it going to be
(30:02):
land based?
Is it going to be offshore?
So you start out, I think, with that final objective.
Then I've always kind of worked backwards from there to say, OK, to get to that objective
in this time scale, what technology building blocks do I need?
So if I take again the superconducting wind turbine generator, as an example, the offshore
(30:24):
machine, one of the key building blocks there is an extremely reliable, pretty much maintenance
free cryo cooler, OK, to be able to cool the superconducting machines.
So do we have that today?
I would say we are nearly there.
There are lots of laboratory based cryo coolers available on the market today, commercially
(30:46):
available.
But how are they going to operate in an environment where you have wind, you've got sea salt,
you've got spray, you've got vibrations, crazy temperatures, really high temperatures and
really cold temperatures.
How is it going to operate reliably in that environment?
So that's one of the key technology building blocks.
(31:08):
And then I carry on back down that systems engineering path to say, OK, what other technology
building blocks are we missing today?
Can we use technology that we've already proven and apply it to our machine or do we need
to develop something that's completely new?
And it's the developing something that's completely new that may and will need the funding and
(31:34):
time to get right.
So I think pretty much every engineering challenge can be approached in that manner.
Yeah, it sounds like you're applying a little bit of game theory there as well.
Cool.
What are the big challenges now for fusion energy then other than engineering supply
(32:00):
chains for sure, perhaps?
But what do you see as problems that we will need to solve over the next decade in order
to enable large scale fusion energy commercialization?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Funding obviously is key and to be able to obtain and keep funding flowing, I think we
(32:26):
have to be able to change people's perception of what fusion is all about.
OK, that's easier said than done.
If you look at ETA and fusion's been around for a long time writing in papers and in books.
And of course, ETA has been going for a very long time.
But if you look at the costs and how they've escalated, political changes can affect funding
(32:52):
and people's perceptions of fusion.
So I think that's very important really to get people on your side to be able to believe
in what you're trying to achieve.
And like you pointed out earlier, I think Priyanka, that we are in a very exciting situation
right now where there is a lot of interest in fusion.
There is for now at least funds that are available that we could use.
(33:17):
But if we cannot deliver in a suitable or in a reasonable time frame, then again, that
interest is going to wane in public.
And that really could be the stumbling block for us.
So yes, we do have the engineering challenges.
We're talking about materials which don't even maybe exist today.
(33:38):
And we're trying to make a higher field of machines, more compact machines.
So all those things certainly are huge challenges.
But I think one of the biggest challenges we have is folks' perception of fusion in
general.
Yeah.
And how would we go about convincing our brothers and sisters on this planet that this time
(34:08):
it's for real?
This time we can...
What's the...
Yeah.
What points should we make to these guys?
That's a really tough question to answer.
I don't think I've got a complete answer for you there.
But really, people know what they know.
(34:33):
We understand what technology we have today.
We understand the science that we have today.
We don't really fully understand what science and technology we might have in 20, 30, 40,
50 years time when we're talking about room temperature superconducting magnets.
So to start off, I think first of all, we have to have a realistic concept.
(34:54):
What do I mean by that?
So maybe we say, okay, how are we going to be developing our particular fusion machine?
We are using knowledge, technology, science that we understand today, science that we've
already proven.
So we start out with that building block, if you like.
(35:15):
And then we have to have a realistic and reliable set of steps to take us to the next great
breakthrough.
So we must always be open to, hey, if we come up with a new material, how can we use that
in our machine that we are designing?
So I think having that very realistic storyline, starting with where we are today with technology
(35:37):
and science that everyone understands and accepts, I think will go a long way towards
convincing people that, hey, these guys know what they're talking about.
If we look at their plans, they're taking a very logical stepwise approach to the future.
I think that will go a long way towards convincing people.
(35:58):
I feel like we've done that at Chronos.
I think I wanted to text you the other day.
We got our patent for smart approved by the USPTO, by the way.
Like this is awesome.
Oh, great.
And you remember from our board meetings that we've kind of selected our design based on
(36:21):
what's tried and true and kind of what works.
So we've obviously, it's like magnetic confinement, HTS magnets.
The only thing that I think we have an uphill battle on is the helium three fusion, which
(36:42):
Dr. Kulsinski has been helping us figure out the plasma engineering aspects of that since
December.
But I feel like we've very much sought out to build something that's been proved out.
You can contradict me completely with everything that I said.
(37:02):
So what is your then what would be the fusion energy device that is best suited for large
scale commercialization then?
Yeah, I don't know whether I've got a great answer for that.
(37:23):
I don't think anyone does.
I was hoping I could throw you off.
Yeah, I mean, if I think back to the days when people are building huge power stations
where they're coal fired, oil fired on nuclear power stations, you know, really, if you again
coming back to the systems engineering approach where you say, okay, what's my final objective?
(37:46):
Do I want to be able to have essentially a power station in the middle of a city which
is providing reliable, clean energy to the public, start off with that objective and
then what does that tell you in terms of constraints?
It may say, okay, you need it to be compact, you need it to be safe, you need it to have
(38:09):
great shielding.
And that may then drive the internal workings of your fusion machine, right?
You know, determination of what the internal workings might be, whether it's helium-3,
whether it's helium deuterium or something else.
So that's how we got to start.
(38:30):
But like you pointed out very correctly, we've started out, I think, with a concept that
people accept and say, hey, look, a lot of that technology has already been proven.
Okay, the guys are here at Kronos are pushing the envelope in certain areas, but it's not
impossible to see that they could do what they say they're going to do.
(38:52):
And then from there, you take on the next step, right?
Talk about helium-3 and so on.
So I think this stepwise approach, I think, is a very important way to do it.
Yeah.
And we also have a relatively leisure timeline.
So I think we want to take our time and figure all this stuff out.
(39:14):
How long have you been a member of IEEE?
How does that work?
Do you just, do all engineers just join?
Because that seems to be the case.
I don't know about all engineers joining.
I actually joined the UK branch.
It's called the IET back in the UK when I was a student.
(39:38):
So I became a student member.
And the reason we kind of did that was, I guess you get access to journals, publications,
you get to meet and work with people in that particular field.
And I just kept my membership going over the years.
And I found that by being a member either of the IET in the UK or the IEEE here in the
(40:01):
States, you get to sit on review boards, you get pretty much first access to publications,
you know, folks writing papers, and you get to see their work, you get to comment and
edit their work, you get to interact with them.
And that's very interesting and exciting.
You see all the new, you know, the younger generation coming out, the new stuff that
(40:25):
they're working on, which is extremely exciting and interesting.
So I think that's one of the things that drove me to join these professional institutions.
The other is you get to maybe not quite shape how the younger generation comes up, but you
get to maybe provide them with some guidance and mentorship, either via, you know, direct
(40:52):
reviewing of their papers or with direct interaction with them.
And I've done both in the past.
Yeah, how do we inspire young people to get into magnets then, Ruben?
How do we make it exciting?
I mean, there are so many applications.
(41:13):
We can shoot things into spaces using magnets.
Right, right.
I mean, I think, you know, electrical engineering in particular, and of course, I always talk
about electrical engineering because that's what I am, right?
It's such a hugely wide field.
You know, you've talked about biomedical engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering.
(41:35):
All these are very, very huge fields.
And just within electrical engineering itself, you know, magnets really is, I wouldn't say
it's a small part of electrical engineering, but certainly it's an important part.
And I think just getting the young folk interested in engineering in general, I think, is a huge
thing.
(41:56):
And you could do it in a number of ways.
One of the things that we do here at Jefferson Lab, for example, and I think a lot of the
national labs do this, and I think private companies do it as well, is reaching out to
the local community in high schools, for example, local universities, get them involved, bring
them into the lab, show them the exciting things that a national lab does in terms of
(42:19):
research, development, experiments that physicists are carrying out.
And I think that excites people a lot, the students coming in to see what we're doing.
So I think that's the first step.
Secondly, is being very open with them.
They will have lots of questions, so be free about sharing your experience with them.
(42:44):
And that's how it starts, you know, at a very young age, I think, at least that's how I
got into it.
Yeah, I feel like our national labs, I'm so proud of them.
I'm just so proud, like, because, you know, there's so much political turmoil, like we're
on the precipice of World War III and, you know, school shootings and whatnot, but the
(43:09):
national labs, you know, they're winning every day, like they're doing what we're supposed
to be doing.
And it keeps me optimistic.
You've really been part of a lot of breakthroughs, Ruben.
So kind of just last question, what is like the biggest breakthrough that you've worked
(43:32):
on that you're very proud of?
And what's next for Ruben?
What's the next breakthrough that you're excited to see come to fruition?
Yeah, I don't know whether I would call it a breakthrough because of being in the field
for such a long time.
It's almost like a natural progression for me.
(43:52):
But at Jefferson Lab, and I joined Jefferson Lab in 2013, I think, they were already like
part way through full upgrade of the accelerator at the lab here in Virginia, you know, increasing
the energy of the electron beam, which would then enable a whole new branch of physics
(44:14):
to be experimented with.
So and that involved a lot of superconducting magnets in the experimental halls.
We've got four experimental halls here at the lab.
And each hall has its own specialty in terms of experimental nuclear physics.
So getting involved in that, helping to drive that project to completion was, I think, personally
(44:38):
for me, I think that was an eye opener as to how these really talented people could
work so well together.
And of course, it wasn't just a national project.
We had collaborators from around the world contributing to this project.
And of course, that machine, of course, has now been upgraded.
(44:59):
It's been running since 2018, 2019.
It's producing fantastic results, which we have been publishing several papers a year
on these experiments.
And producing PhD in nuclear physics, PhDs here in the States, all from Jefferson Labs.
(45:23):
So I think being part of that community, being able to provide equipment for the next generation
of young scientists, I think I would consider that a huge breakthrough.
What kind of results do you publish with the electron beam accelerator?
(45:46):
Just curious.
Right.
So Jefferson Labs' expertise really is delving into the nucleus, protons, neutrons, looking
at quarks, gluons that hold everything together, understanding the nature of matter.
So that really is what we're doing.
Really delving into the nucleus itself.
(46:10):
And recently, what I say recently, maybe the last couple of years, we've even published
papers on measuring the radius of a proton, for example.
Now to the layman, the man in the street, you could ask quite rightly, how is this relevant
to me?
So maybe measuring the radius of a proton is not entirely relevant to the man in the
(46:33):
street, but there are lots of spin-offs that come out of nuclear physics experiments.
And one of the huge spin-offs is being able to tackle cancer.
So using essentially an accelerator to be able to target cancer cells in a human patient
very, very successfully.
(46:55):
So that's, I think, very obvious, maybe not obvious to everyone, but a really useful spin-off
that's come out of the nuclear physics work that we've done here at Jefferson Lab.
My God, how does that work?
Are you going to make a compact version of this, like an MRI machine, and house it in
(47:20):
the hospital, or do you take a sample from a patient and take it to the lab?
So these machines already exist.
In fact, down here in Hampton Roads, we've got a machine that does exactly that, and
there are machines being built all over the world to do this.
As you might imagine, these machines aren't as compact as we'd like them to be.
(47:42):
They are the size of a house, so they're extremely expensive.
The treatment is extremely expensive, so we're working to maybe reduce cost, maybe reduce
size, but nevertheless, the core technology will still be there.
In fact, we've got experts here at the lab who regularly advise on producing more of
(48:05):
these facilities worldwide.
What's next for me, though?
Well, I think probably fusion.
Like I said, I've been dabbling with fusion a little bit on the edges for quite a number
of years, all the way back to 1989, 1990.
Now of course, I've got the opportunity with Chronos to actually really get more involved,
(48:29):
be right in the heart of what we're trying to do in the fusion engineering field.
So that is a truly exciting time.
Wow.
Yeah, I can't wait.
It's an exciting future, and you're on the forefront of so many things, Ruben.
Thank you so much for doing this.
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