Episode Sumary: In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, Anson Dorrance takes us on a deep-dive into his 47-year long career at the University of North Carolina where he's led the women's soccer team to an awe-inspiring 22 national championships.
About Anson Dorrance: Anson Dorrance IV is an American soccer coach. He is currently the head coach of the women's soccer program at the University of North Carolina. He has one of the most successful coaching records in the history of athletics. Under Dorrance's leadership, the Tar Heels have won 21 of the 41 NCAA Women's Soccer Championships. The Tar Heels' record under Dorrance stood at 809-67-36 (.887 winning percentage) over 33 seasons at the end of the 2017 season. He has led his team to a 101-game unbeaten streak and coached 13 different women to a total of 20 National Player of the Year awards.
The NCAA has recognized Dorrance as the Women's Soccer Coach of the Year seven times (1982, 1986, 1997, 2000, 2001, 2003 and 2006) and as the Men's Soccer Coach of the Year in 1987. On March 10, 2008, Dorrance was elected to the National Soccer Hall of Fame.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. We explore the pivotal role of data-driven practices and core values in creating a competitive and successful team.
2. Anson shares his passion surrounding his students leading a principle-centered life, instilling respect for authority figures, and setting lofty goals.
3. He shares fascinating anecdotes about his experiences coaching and molding competitive students into responsible adults.
4. Anson offers advice to students transitioning to elite universities, as well as challenging listeners to never give up on leadership.
Quotes From the Episode:
“Connection is critical.”
“Data is candor.”
Resources Mentioned:
University of North Carolina
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug Smith (00:07):
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
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(00:28):
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(00:50):
Well, leader, in this week'sepisode of the podcast, you are
in for a treat.
You're going to hear myconversation with coach Anson
Durant, who is an absolutelegend.
If you're unfamiliar with coach, let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Anson has been coach of theUniversity of North Carolina's
women's soccer team for over 47years.
In fact, he is the one and onlycoach that the program has ever
had and under his coaching andleadership he has led the teams
(01:13):
that he's led to 22 nationalchampionships.
He has been a time coach of theyear.
He was coach of the 1991 WorldCup champion team Team USA.
He's a Hall of Famer, a leaderand mentor to so many, and in
our conversation you're going tohear him talk about what he
calls the competitive cauldron,which is incredible.
You're going to hear him talkabout what separated him from
(01:33):
all the other coaches andcompetition, what separates the
great players from everybodyelse, how to draw potential out
of others, and so much more.
And all I can really tell youis buckle up, get out your pen
and paper and get ready to takea massive amount of notes.
This was one of my favoriteinterviews of all time and I
just can't wait for you tolisten.
But before we get into theconversation, just a few
(01:53):
announcements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
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And with all that being said,here's my conversation with
coach Anson Durrance.
Well, Anson, welcome to the L3Leadership Podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis for quite some time.
(03:21):
You have an unbelievable resume, probably one of the greatest
on earth.
You've been a coach at UNC for47 years the only coach in
history.
Career record of 1,093 wins,150 losses in 66 ties, have 22
national titles.
You are on, and I could go onand on.
(03:43):
You led the team USA to thefirst ever women's cup.
I can let you talk more aboutthis, but tell us a little bit
about yourself and I'm curiousspecifically what do you think
has set you apart?
There's thousands of coachesall over the nation.
What has set you apart to seesuch incredible results versus
everyone else who may not?
Anson Dorrance (04:00):
Well, honestly, there's no sort of mythical, I
guess, algorithm for winning incollegiate athletics.
You've got to be an effectiverecruiter, and obviously I
worked for a remarkableuniversity that's very
attractive, and so we've been ina position to recruit some
incredible student athletes.
(04:20):
And so anyone in collegiateathletics that pretends that
they win for reasons other thanthe talent they have on their
roster is just, you know,bloviating in the most negative
way.
So, no, I've had a collectionof amazing young women that,
have you know, killed themselvesto compete at the highest level
, and I worked for a universitythat's very attractive, and so
(04:44):
for me it certainly comes downto the elite athletes that we've
attracted to the university.
And then I think, there youknow, once you do have these
amazing athletes, you have amoral imperative to try to take
them to their potential.
And I think we have threedifferent elements that I think
assist us in getting to ourpotential.
(05:04):
And the first element issomething that I think is talked
about consistently, and Iappreciate the fact that is
talked about consistently,because this has been a huge
weapon for us from the beginning.
I believe that if you want tobecome elite at anything, you've
got to compete, and so thisthing that we've stolen from
(05:25):
Dean Smith and the men'sbasketball team here at the
University of North Carolina hasserved us incredibly well, and
it's a thing we call thecompetitive cauldron, and I'll
share the backstory for itbecause I think you'll
appreciate this.
I was a young coach here at UNC,you know, wet behind the ears,
and we had this absolutelybrilliant man on campus that we
(05:46):
all admired by the name of DeanSmith, and for those of you that
don't know who this gentlemanis, this is Michael Jordan, this
college basketball coach, andhe was an extraordinary man, not
just an extraordinary coach, hewas an extraordinary man and he
was such a generous human being.
He came up to me one day, whenI was, you know, recently, hired
(06:07):
, wet behind the ears andbasically said you know, hanson,
if you're bored one afternoon,you want to come watch us
practice basketball?
You know, please let my, mystaff know, and we'll set you
and your staff in the, you know,in the auditorium and the
Carmichael Center.
This is where, you know,michael Jordan basically
finished his basketball career.
(06:28):
Of course, they've built theSmith Center since then, but
we'll put you in Carmichael andyou can watch the practice and
and I'm thinking this isunbelievable.
So this guy's going to let mecome, you know, watch practice.
And and I thought it wasincredible so, of course, yes,
yes, this is Dean Smith, I mean,he's a God here in Chapel Hill
Then he's invited me to watchpractice.
Now, of course, of course.
(06:48):
And so I show up one day and ofcourse I mustered in.
I have to show up at a certaintime.
It's incredibly structured andI have to sit in a certain place
with my assistants.
We're not allowed to talkduring the practice or not
interfering with what's going on.
And what was also fascinatingfor me is I am handed by one of
his managers, and so is everyone of my staff members, an
(07:10):
outline of the practice.
Now I'm looking down at thisthing and first of all, I can't
believe it because it looks likehe's organized the practice to
the minute.
I have never organized apractice to the minute.
I've got sort of a general ideaof what's going to go on that
day.
I know it's going to be a hardday or a medium day or a light
day.
I know the practice is going tolast an hour and a half or
(07:32):
something, and that's what Iknow.
And other than that I don'tknow anything.
And then I started inventingstuff to do during the practice
based on my own experiences as aplayer.
And now I'm looking down at thisagenda for the training session
that day and I just can'tbelieve it.
And first of all, I can'tbelieve that someone wrote all
this down.
How does anyone have timeduring the day to actually write
(07:52):
down what's going to happen inpractice?
Because I was used to justbeing in sheer chaos every day
of my coaching life, couldn'tcatch up with anything.
Even getting on this podcastwas difficult for me.
Why?
Because I get like 400 emails aday.
I am harassed from everypossible corridor, which is why
I wanted you to send me thislink five minutes before we're
(08:15):
on.
Why?
Because if you sent it an hourbefore we were on, I'd never
find it.
So, anyway, thank goodnesswe're actually on this thing
together, but anyway.
So I'm looking at this agendaand I am shocked.
And then, of course, he followsit.
So, yeah, you know it's suchand such a time the warmup
begins, and then, all of asudden, noise goes off and then
they go to their first trainingenvironment and the players all
(08:37):
scatter, going in differentdirections the guards are going
here, the forwards are goinghere, the bigs are underneath
the basket playing 2v2 orsomething and all of a sudden
the noise goes off again.
They all sprint somewhere elseand incredibly organized and
down to the minute.
I'm now looking down on mywatch thing and, oh my gosh,
yeah, they are exactly on timeand I'm just I'm stunned.
(08:58):
First of all, they actuallyhave an agenda and then they
follow the agenda.
Yeah, one day I decided towrite out my practice.
After the practice, I looked atit and I was thinking, holy
crap, I didn't do any of thisstuff.
We have the year in thepractice and I was thinking this
is amazing.
Now Dean Smith is following hisown practice outline and first
of all, I'm stunned.
But the other thing I noticedpretty early is underneath every
(09:20):
basket is an assistant managerwith a clipboard and I can see
these guys writing data down onthe clipboards.
Obviously, if it's a free throwshooting station, they're
recording of the hits or missesfor all the kids.
If it's a mid-range jumperstation and I assume now it
would be a three-point shootingstation as well as they're all
(09:43):
doing these different things.
And then, of course, you've gotthese 3V3s full court with the
guards playing against eachother, and the 4s are doing that
, and the centers are doing that, and then it's 4V4, sometimes
5V5.
And I assume the winners andlosers are being assailed and
accumulated Every now and again.
You look at underneath one ofthe baskets and the four bigs
(10:03):
are there playing 2V2.
And I assume they're writingdown whether or not you boxed
out for the rebound or failed to, whether or not you got a
rebound or failed to, whether ornot the putback was something
you did or what someone else did.
So anyway, I am watching all ofthis data collection and I am
stunned.
And then at the end of practiceand sure enough, it followed the
(10:24):
practice outline the noise goesoff, practice is over and they
all sprint.
These guys with theseclipboards, these managers, have
sprinted to the score stable.
The head manager is nowcompiling that day's practice
data.
Dean now is addressing the boysand he's chatting them in the
vid and by the time he turnsaround, the head manager has
(10:47):
compiled that day's practicedata.
Every player is now ranked forperformance in that practice and
so if he has a 12th playerroster that year, the first four
or five guys can leave andshower immediately.
The next eight or nine kids arenow lined up on whatever you
call the end line on abasketball court and now they're
(11:09):
sprinting out to the foul lineand back, then to the
mid-striping, back and to theother foul line and back and to
the other end of the court andback, and they're all doing this
on a clock because the noisegoes off and if they're late
they've got to either go againor do a push-up or a set-up or
something, and then that groupleaves and then of the final
(11:29):
group that's been there thewhole time, I assume the last
four guys in practice aresprinting until the end of
recorded time and I'm thinking,oh my gosh, this is fantastic.
I loved the accountability of it, I loved the measurement of it,
I loved the immediate feedbackof it and I'm thinking this is
incredible.
So I got together with my staffand we designed a soccer
(11:53):
competitive cauldron and fromthen on we recorded everything
in practice and this just suitedmy personality.
I'm an alpha.
I would love to know at the endof every practice I'm the best
player on the field and I assumethat everyone knew that if I
was out there.
Yeah, but I would love itcertified with data, so there is
no contention about who was thebest that day.
(12:16):
And so, yeah, data can certifyit for you.
So I love this.
And so, all of a sudden, westarted organizing practices
where we would competeeventually, and it ended up 28
different categories, and at theend of every practice we'd
assemble the data and then myassistant analytics team would
get together and they would rankthe kids in practice and then
(12:38):
we would put on a bulletin boardthe next day for practice in 28
different categories where youranked.
We wouldn't necessarily do 28different competitive things a
day.
We would obviously, at thebeginning of the year you're
doing your fitness testing, soyou would have your beep test,
which is a measure of youraerobic capacity.
You would do sprint tests thatwould show your acceleration and
(13:01):
your 30 meter speed.
You would have agility testsand vertical jump tests, and
that stuff is up there from thebeginning so you can see where
you stack up against the rest ofyour teammates.
And then, of course, you'recompeting 1v1 tournaments, 77
tournaments, 11v11 events andheading ladders where you're
trying to battle people in theair.
(13:21):
And so we took our game ofsoccer and we took it down to
its fundamental base and wecompeted in everything we could.
So all of a sudden it's evolvedto the point where, on a 30
player roster, where four kidson the roster are goalkeepers,
the other 26 are field players,everyone's ranked in 28
(13:45):
different categories based ontheir success in competing in
practice.
And so this cauldron hasdeveloped a team that's
extraordinarily competitive, andin my opinion, it makes a
difference year to year becauseour teams are consistently
competitive.
We're competitive in every gamewe play in, and a lot of even
(14:05):
great teams will beat a goodteam one day and then get
slaughtered by a good team thenext, and one of my favorite
statistics of all time is thisstatistic where for 603 games in
a row, we either won the game,tied the game or lost it by just
(14:26):
one goal.
So for 603 games in a row, wewere in it until the last second
, and almost every other teamthat we see in our Vietnam again
loses by two goals, orsometimes three or four.
That doesn't happen to us, orwhen it happens, it's incredibly
rare.
And I think what the cauldrondoes for you, it makes you
(14:49):
extraordinarily competitive, andI think a part of this is these
kids being bathed in thiscauldron of accountability, and
I think it's made all thedifference in the world for our
teams from the beginning.
So I think that's one elementthat separates our environment
for player development.
The other element that I willnever undervalue are the core
(15:13):
values that we expect our kidsto live by.
If you jumped online right nowand typed into your web browser
UNC, women's Soccer Core Values,hopefully the most recent
rendition of them would pop up.
We have 13 core values and weexpect all the kids to live by
them, and it's basically aprinciple-centered living.
This might shock anyonelistening to this podcast, but I
(15:37):
don't believe in rules.
I don't even believe in havinga rule of showing up on time,
but we expect everyone to showup on time Because if you read
through our core values, it'sabout respecting people, it's
about respecting yourself, it'sabout making good choices, and
so, of course, even withoutbeing told to show up on time,
(15:58):
you will show up on time Becauseyou're going to respect the
people that have organized thepractice of the meeting, and
this is all a part of leading aprinciple-centered life.
And so we don't believe incertain things and we have core
values that admonish you frompracticing them.
Like the first thing that everyplayer in our team memorizes is
this quote about not whining.
(16:19):
I don't know about you, but Iabsolutely abhor winers.
They drive me absolutely crazy,and almost all cultures are
filled with winers.
I don't embrace it, I neverwant to hear it.
And so the first core valueeveryone memorizes that we
expect them to live is a GeorgeBernard Shaw quote about being a
(16:41):
force of fortune instead of afeverish, selfish little cloud
of ailments and grievances,complaining that the world will
not devote itself to making youhappy, because that's basically
what a whiner is.
And my favorite core value is aVictor Franco quote about the
last of the human freedoms,which is to choose your attitude
(17:02):
in any given set ofcircumstances, to choose your
own way.
So we have all these principles, and the way the principles are
framed are not with sort ofordinary language.
They're framed with quotes thatI think are inspiring, and we
expect our kids to memorizethese inspiring quotations and
then live them.
(17:22):
And then, twice a year, theyoung women in our team
basically evaluate everyteammate on each of the 13 core
values.
And if you were to attend ourathletic banquet, basically in
the spring of every year, thetop award of this banquet is not
the MVP and, by the way, we'vehad some extraordinary MVPs I'm
(17:45):
Meneah Ham, christine Lilly,crystal Dunn, tobin Heath, cindy
Parlow I could go down a listof names that would just be
shocking relative to mostprograms that are out there.
So we have some amazing MVPs,but that's not the top award at
our athletic banquet.
The top award at our athleticbanquet is the Kelly Muldoon
(18:06):
Award for Character.
So which player on the team, onbasically a peer vote, in
living the 13 core values lives,a principle-centered life, the
best?
So I think my main job as thewomen's soccer coach at the
University of North Carolina isnot to win ACC regular season
(18:27):
championships or ACC tournamentchampionships or national
championships.
I think my main job at theUniversity of North Carolina is
to help cultivate and developextraordinary human beings, and
so the cauldron is a criticalelement for us.
The core values are anothercritical element.
And then the final piece is amore modern problem, and this is
(18:52):
the problem of basicallygetting everyone's personal
narrative to the truth.
What's happening right now iswe're raising our kids
differently, and the way we'reraising them right now is we're
raising them basicallyprotecting them from the chaos
of the universe, and in doingthat we're basically eliminating
(19:13):
them having any standards andwe're eliminating them having
any accountability.
And I'm certainly not asociologist or a psychologist,
so I'm going to throw somethingout there, and who knows what
I'm about to throw out is basedin any sort of truth.
But here's what I speculate.
I speculate that somewhere backthere there was this self-esteem
(19:36):
movement that was beingdeveloped by, who knows, maybe
child psychologists or maybe acollection of sociologists, but
I think it became mainstream andI think the theory back then
was all right, I want mychildren to develop an
incredible amount of self-esteem, and one of the best ways to
create self-esteem is toobviously be positive with your
(19:57):
children, and please don't thinkI'm sitting here telling
everyone not to be positive withyour children.
Of course you should be, but Ithink what ended up happening is
that sentiment, which I thinkoriginally was a positive one,
went in the wrong direction.
Because then what started tohappen with these parents that
weren't experienced sociologistsor experienced psychologists
(20:20):
basically started to praisetheir children for anything they
did, with the illusion that ifthey could construct a platform
of basically self-esteem withtheir children, they were going
to conquer the world, and allthat ended up happening is they
ended up crippling theirchildren, and one of the biggest
problems I have when a kidcomes into play.
For me at the University ofNorth Carolina is their
(20:42):
self-esteem, and their basicallypersonal narrative has been
constructed by loving parents,by the way, that wanted to
protect them from the chaos inthe universe and then basically
were not critical of anythingthey did.
And so now they think they'reGod's gift to the earth.
And boy is that entitledindividual almost impossible to
(21:06):
deal with, because they allthink they should start and play
90 minutes, and what they don'tunderstand is there are 30
players in the roster and if youwant to get on the field,
you've got to compete to get onthe field.
In other words, if you want toget on the field, you have to
kick everyone's ass in practiceand that gets you on the field.
And if someone on the otherteam is kicking your ass in the
game, you're coming out and I'mgoing to try someone else to
(21:30):
take up for the slack that youbasically gave the other team
that got them in the game orbasically allowed them to plant
their flag in your zone.
And so, basically, this isabout accountability.
This is about Dean Smith andhis managers making sure that
every kid that left practiceknew whether or not they were
the alpha that day.
And, trust me, failing everyday is humiliating in a very
(21:53):
positive way, because the firstthing you gather is you know
what, you're not the greatestthing on the planet and you've
got some work to do.
And that humility inspires, Ithink, all the great ones,
because all the great ones dowant to leave practice every day
.
Being declared the alpha and oneof the best teachers they've
ever had in their lives isfailure.
(22:14):
And so the third piece that'scritical for me is to get every
kid's personal narrative to thetruth as fast as possible, and
they have never been told thetruth in their lives, and now
they have this collision coursewith me, and the truth is so
painful for them to hear becausethey've never heard it before.
(22:34):
Mom and dad have only seen thebest player on every team
they've ever played on.
Why?
Because we're in that luxuriousposition.
We don't recruit the secondbest player on any team.
We recruit the best player onthe team, and oftentimes the
kids that we recruit are notjust the best player on that
team, they're also the bestplayer in that league, and then
(22:54):
oftentimes the best player inthat state and oftentimes again,
the best player east of theMississippi and sometimes the
best player in the country.
So all these kids are coming intogether and guess what?
With all those kids here,there's a new hierarchy.
They're not the best anymoreand now they've got to learn to
live with the fact that they'vegot to do more work and then
possibly be this thing calledcoachable, which means listening
(23:18):
to the stuff we're sharing withthem, if they want to get to
the promised land, and this isdifficult for them.
They've never suffered in thisway in their whole lives.
And then, of course, who aretheir touchstones?
Following a practice orfollowing a game, their parents,
and their parents are listeningto them.
And what are they telling theirparents?
A lot of times they're tellingtheir parents absolute BS.
(23:41):
There's very few kids call homeand say, oh, by the way, we had
our first practice today and,by the way, my ass was handed to
me in every single minute ofthe practice.
Very rarely does a kid fallhome with that, but, by the way,
and a lot of these practices,their asses were handed to them.
But it's not informationthey're sharing with their
(24:01):
parents.
So, honey, how did it go today?
Oh, mom and dad, it was greatand I did a really good job, you
know, and I did this and thatand the other thing, and all of
a sudden, now the parent isshocked on the weekend when
their kid is not even gettinginto the game.
And now, of course, who's toblame?
Well, I'm to blame, well, Imight have blamed, because their
little darling, who clearly wasawesome, isn't being played,
(24:23):
and so it's really funny.
And so what was really cool isobviously being a part of an
elite university.
We have these brilliant men andwomen that come lecture to us
all the time on the sort ofpeople we're dealing with, and
so I remember this and I'llremember this for the rest of my
life.
Every five years or so, webring in the eminent
(24:43):
sociologists to tell us whowe're recruiting, who we're
coaching to help us so we don'tmake any egregious errors.
And so this guy came in in 2012and he was the eminent
sociologist on campus and he wasa brilliant lecturer and,
honestly, between you and meright now, I can't remember a
thing he said, and the reason Ican't remember a thing he said
because the first slides heshowed with all of us I will
(25:07):
remember for the rest of my life, and it was a summary of what
he was saying in the lecture,and here's what they are.
The first slide he put on theboard had the date 1969 at the
top.
I'll never forget that date.
That's the date I graduatedfrom high school.
That's why I brought in fromthe next room someone that was
born, you know.
(25:27):
A lot later they had to fixthis computer so I could
actually get on your podcastbecause I was, you know,
graduated high school in 1969.
So in that slide 1969, this kidis coming home from school and
this kid has all Fs on hisreport card.
The parents are streaming atthe kid.
(25:48):
Then the next slide shifted tothe year he was giving the
lecture, which was 2012.
2012,.
The kid comes from school, allFs on his report card, and now
what's happening?
The parents are screaming atthe teacher.
So it's been a paradigm shift.
(26:08):
So now, of course, it's not yourfault, honey.
This teacher obviously doesn'tknow what they're doing.
She's not teaching you properly.
Obviously, if they taught youproperly and inspired you, you
would have an A on this, and nowyou're certainly being
undermined by this destructiveteacher.
Now the kid's feeling greatbecause, of course, it's a
teacher's fault.
It's not the teacher's fault,it's the culture in the home's
(26:32):
fault.
And all of a sudden what they'redoing for their poor little kid
.
They've completely eliminatedstandards from this kid's life,
because whatever the kid does isabsolutely fine.
But the other thing they'reundermining is they're
undermining authority figuresfor this child, and so now
anyone they collide with for therest of their lives, the kid's
gonna assume that this person iscompromising them.
(26:54):
And the parent has just turnedthis basically bag of garbage
into someone that's never gonnasucceed in the real world.
And that's on them.
So what's my job?
My job is to try to convertthem into people that see the
truth now, because, guess what,you've got some work to do.
So if I had to summarize whatwe do here, I would put it in
(27:19):
those three silos.
Obviously, we can drill intoany part of those three that you
like.
Doug Smith (27:24):
Yeah, two follow up questions to that.
Specifically One I am curious.
I mean you're getting the mostcompetitive kids on the planet
and they're still coming in withthat entitlement attitude.
You said it's almost impossibleto turn them.
How often do you actually seesomeone come in that can
actually change and develop thehumility necessary to do
whatever it takes to get towhere they need to go?
Anson Dorrance (27:44):
Well, these are the superstars.
Every now and again, you'llbring in a kid that, right out
of the get go, is takingresponsibility for everything,
and obviously their combinationof factors with that one is
they're well raised and they dorespect authority.
So when you tell them they needto do this, they jump on it
immediately.
They don't whine and complainto their parents about it.
(28:05):
They're the masters of theirown universe and they don't
require any sort of gentle hugsfrom their parents to survive.
These are kids that are goingto make it, and so those are the
kids that can step in and,along the way, their parents
have educated them about failureand the value of failure and
(28:27):
the value of takingresponsibility for everything,
and so we've got a whole set ofcore values that will help them
go in that direction.
In fact, let me see if I canfind our book right here.
So yeah, so here is.
I had a class of leaders thatwas really concerned with this
(28:50):
sort of thing infecting the team, and so I'll read this thing to
you this is our 13th core value, and this was and, by the way,
my leaders dictate whether ornot we keep the core value,
change it, et cetera, et cetera.
So, in this particular year, myleadership council, which are
made up of basically all thejuniors and the team.
(29:11):
This is in the spring, so allthe seniors have gone pro, and
so now the juniors are decidingwhat we're gonna live by.
And so the juniors got together, so all the juniors are on the
leadership council one sophomore, one freshman and here's what
they came up with.
Here's the way they wanted tolive.
So here's what we constructedtogether as a collection of team
(29:31):
leaders and me.
So it's the 13th core value.
It says accountable.
This is the biggest challengefor the millennials.
Now is the period to escape theprotections of loving parents
who don't want you to get hurt.
You have four years to getready for chaos of the universe.
(29:53):
Mark Cohen, an award-winning UNCassistant professor of English
and comparative literature, whenasked who was the best teacher
you ever had and why, said thisthe best teacher I've ever had
is failure.
Samuel Beckett said it bestEver tried, ever failed, no
matter.
Try again, fail again, failbetter.
(30:17):
And here is what every kidmemorizes that they're being
evaluated against by all oftheir peers.
So here's what they have torecite to me in every player
conference Some want to beexempt, they do not want to
excel, they do not want to exert, they want to be considered
excellent for desiring to beheld exempt from all
(30:38):
accountability.
And that's a quote I stole fromBeau.
Here is what we added to it,and this is basically a
combination of my conversationswith my leadership counsel.
So, and what protects them fromall accountability?
Their own narrative that is notinterested in exploring their
potential but is crafted to keepthem comfortable while
(30:59):
recruiting every possible excusealong the way.
So how do we want to live?
And obviously we, as the UNCWomen's Soccer Culture To
paraphrase Alex Ferguson ofBanyou fame we want to take
responsibility for our ownactions, our own errors, our own
performance level and,eventually, for every result.
So this is a collection of kidsthat have decided yep, we want
(31:22):
to be held accountable.
And obviously we've got 13 ofthese.
All anyone needs to do is justjump on the internet and just
type in UNC Women's Soccer CoreValues and all 13 of them will
pop up.
Doug Smith (31:36):
Yeah, so not.
I'm a dad of four, four kidsunder seven, two girls, two boys
.
My wife played soccer on thepreventive side.
If you could give an address tothe nation Specifically
addressing parents, you know Ican at least speak for my wife
and I.
We want to raise accountablekids.
We're gonna raise kids that youknow you'd be proud.
That play for you.
What would your I yeah, I'lljust leave it open ended what
(31:57):
would you tell parents in orderto raise great kids who are
actually prepared for the world,versus not?
Anson Dorrance (32:04):
basically To allow them to embrace failure.
And in my opinion, one of thegreatest aspects of sport is
failing and coming back, failingand coming back again, failing
and coming back again, because,boy, you develop a certain
resilience level.
That's absolutely remarkable.
But also, don't have anydelusions of grandeur.
(32:25):
My wife and I joke about thisall the time.
I've got a kid Kid.
She's in her early 40s now.
She was, you know, climbing thedance world and Of course, I
deal with these parents who, youknow, have a completely Bizarre
(32:47):
view of their own children.
And she's a Dance instructor.
She taught at Duke for 33 yearsin their dance program and then
she danced professionally foryears before she married me and
started teaching.
And so we're very, very wary ofParents that, you know, I guess
(33:08):
, give their children falsepraise.
So, yeah, if our kids didsomething well, you know we
hugged them and you know tellthem.
You know we told them greatstuff, but we never protected
them from failure.
And one of our favorite momentswas actually this kid of ours.
If you type her into a Googlesearch, you'll be shocked at
what she's achieved.
(33:28):
Her name is Michelle, michelleDoran's.
She is a rhythm tap dancer.
She has her own dance companycalled Doran's dance and she had
just won a Bessie.
I think a Bessie is a topperformer in New York and
Melissa and I obviously are veryproud she's won this award and
(33:51):
she was nominated.
So we were in the room whenthey were announcing the Bessie
award winners and, you know, wedidn't know that she was gonna
win this award, but we wereinvited to be a part of this.
Of course we're very proud ofher that she was even included,
nominated in this, and all of asudden they announced that she
was the Bessie award winner andmy wife and I turned to each
other and we finally said youknow what?
(34:13):
Maybe she's pretty good.
I think what's critical is toalways make sure when you're
raising your kids they're feederon the ground and always make
sure.
And you know this is stuff thatall of us can learn from you
know a Carol Dweck, I mean.
Basically, have a growthmindset.
(34:34):
Have you know?
You know talk about potential,talk about the next level.
Never talk about you knowyou've done enough or you've
arrived, because that's thefirst day of your you going
backwards.
So, yeah, I think that'scritical for all of us that
raised children, but also to seeif we can help them construct a
(34:57):
principal center, because Ithink having a principal center
is gonna help guide your life inthe most positive way.
But taking responsibility foreverything, because when we
start to make up excuses for allof our failures, holy cow,
we're gonna basically make surewe will never achieve anything.
And if you want to achieveeverything, take responsibility
(35:18):
for everything you can.
And then what you're saying isI'm in a position to change
where I am, and If excuses arewhat protects you from the chaos
, the universe, you're nevergonna go anywhere.
Take responsibility foreverything, even if it's not
your fault, to sort of try tofigure out a way to take
responsibility for all thesedifferent elements so that you
(35:39):
can make a change.
And so, yeah, that's that's socritical for all of us raising
our kids.
Doug Smith (35:46):
So good You've coached.
You coach the best of the best,you recruit the best of the
best, and I love the competitivecauldron.
You've coached 19 differentplayers.
The national player of the yearhonors You've been.
You mentioned people like CindyParlow, mia Ham, so you you're
bringing into the greatest.
But then there's those whoseparate themselves.
I'm just curious when you seethe Mia Hams of the world, are
there specific traits that theyhad when you coach them that you
(36:08):
just that do allow them toseparate themselves from
Everyone else?
Who is great?
Anson Dorrance (36:15):
First of all, that's a great question.
First of all, everyone isDifferent, so please don't
assume for a second that when Istart to give you these
generalizations that you canapply these.
You know, across the board Ithink we're all wonderfully
different.
We all have to be leddifferently Because we're all
different.
When I meet with my kids, Italk about all these different
(36:38):
categories.
If they want to becomeextraordinary and these are like
boxes they have to check and Istole this from a gentleman that
was hired by the NBA and theNFL and the Basically all the
pro teams to sort out whether ornot to draft this player or
that player.
(36:59):
And he is this guy that sets upa psychological profile and he
goes into the home of someonethat you're hoping to draft and
he has.
You take this, this profile andthis profile.
When I started reading aboutthis guy first Was to sort out
if you had self-discipline,competitive fire and self-belief
.
And this guy had an incrediblehit rate 85% of the time.
(37:22):
When he was given someone toassess and you followed his
advice, he was spot on.
So he added a 15% you know, IGuess failure rate, but 85%
successful.
So if you went in and you hadthis guy and you hired this guy
and you were saying, well,should I, you know, draft
Michael Jordan?
And Michael Jordan fill thisprofile out, and, sure enough,
(37:44):
he came up in spades withself-discipline, competitive
fire and self-belief, and thenthis guy would say, yeah,
obviously, draft this guy, butthere are a lot of people out
there, even Heisman Trophywinners In football, that don't
make it in professional football.
And so, and all of us know, andobviously on draft day, the
stories are Legend for thepeople that are, you know,
(38:05):
drafted first, that don't makeit, and people that are drafted
last that make it.
Of course, what's the greateststory of all time?
It's Tom Brady.
Tom Brady, yep, tom Bradydrafted 199.
Are you freaking, kidding me?
All these guys that were paid asmall fortune to assess talent
Drafted this guy 199th.
(38:25):
Can we go back and fire thatwhole you know Advisors?
I mean, are you kidding me?
That guy will retire, thegreatest football player of all
time, and he's drafted at 199th.
And the reason I'm bringing upthis story is because it's so
difficult to assess Talent.
So what are the elements thatare going to stretch you?
(38:48):
What are the elements thatyou're taking to the Promised
Land?
So I start with those three thecauldron your rank in the
cauldron is your competitivefire ring.
You're you're basically.
Your other ranks can beassessed.
Other ways in which you can bea player Can be assessed other
ways in the different datacollections that we use.
(39:09):
So self-discipline we basicallyuse fitness testing,
competitive fire we use thecauldron.
And self-belief is something Iwill not touch.
I will never negatively touchanyone's self-belief.
So if a kid thinks they'reGod's gift of the game, I'm
never gonna say you're not,because you know what.
(39:30):
If I think you suck and youthink you're great, it's gonna
be shocking how often you'regonna have your own self-belief
and get to a completelydifferent level because of that
self-belief.
So a kid gets to give her ownself-belief grade in a player
conference with me and I'm nevergonna touch it Because I've had
(39:50):
several players that, lookingat them, I'm thinking you know
you are the most ordinarycreature of all, but your
self-belief is off the charts.
Then it's amazing what you cando with this self-belief, wow.
And so that's something I amnever gonna touch.
But we have other categories welook at.
I call this the love trilogy.
If you want to become a lead insoccer, you gotta love the ball
(40:10):
.
You've got a love playing thegame and you've got a love
watching the game, and if thosethree loves aren't a part of
your soccer development, you'renever gonna make it at the
highest level.
If you don't love the ball,you're not gonna spend enough
time with it to master it.
So anyone that's watched TobinHeath play, that young lady
loved the ball and as a result,she had this amazing ball
(40:32):
mastery that all of us love herfor.
Just because watching her play,it's clear she mastered the
ball.
So self-discipline, competitivefire, self-belief, love of the
ball, love of playing the game,love of watching the game these
are all critical, and there'sinvariably a piece missing, even
among the elite athletes.
What's my job?
My job is to take him to thepromised land.
(40:54):
There are other pieces.
There's an athletic platformthat's critical, and sometimes
this is dictated by yourgenetics.
Can you impact on it?
Yes, you can, but not to anincredible degree, but that's
also a factor at an elite level.
But so is your ability toconnect with the people around
you.
Connection is critical.
How do you connect?
Do you connect?
(41:15):
Because if you don't, that'sgonna interfere.
Certainly in a team sportthat's gonna interfere.
And then there are other thingsthat make a huge difference in
practice, but also make a hugedifference in you elevating your
practice, and that's energizing.
You bring energy to practice,are you a positive life force,
and, though some kids have cometo practice and I tell them this
(41:36):
all the time they bring suchjoy, my gosh.
The whole practice is liftedbecause of their joy.
In practice, they're energizingis at a completely different
level.
And then another absolutelycritical piece is leadership,
and they're all kinds of leaders.
You can certainly lead byexample.
You can lead, you know, bybeing a chemistry leader on the
(41:58):
team.
You can lead by all thesedifferent ways.
The most important leadershipquality for me, though, is
verbal leadership.
The biggest challenges inwomen's athletics is verbal
leadership.
They're so afraid of what theirteammates are gonna think of
them when they try to leadverbally and, as a result, it
prevents so many of them frombeing these extroverted,
(42:20):
aggressive, classic verballeaders, and we've gotta change
that in our culture when weraise these extraordinary young
women, because, as leaders, theycan be extraordinary, because
one quality they have in spadesis they are generally a lot more
compassionate and they haveother aspects of trust that I
(42:40):
think can make teams so muchbetter, and so this is a piece
we have to address aggressively,and so, if you look at those
elements, you have to check allthose boxes if you wanna get to
the promised land.
Doug Smith (42:53):
I'm loving this conversation.
I feel like I could do a fourhour interview with you, but we
don't have time for that.
One thing I wanna follow up onthat I've heard you allude to a
few times is player coachconferences or something like
that.
You said they have to reciteback to you the core values and
things like that.
What does that look like andwhat does candor look like from
you as a coach, one on one?
Anson Dorrance (43:14):
Yeah, first of all, as you can tell from this
conversation, I'm data driven,so data is candor and basically,
if and everyone of my kidsknows it well I'll give you an
example of this sort of candor.
So I'm gonna give you a typicalfirst meeting with an incoming
freshman at the University ofNorth Carolina.
(43:35):
Of course, they come into theseplayer conferences and they're
all terrified Because, first ofall, they have to recite the
core values, and the only thingman fears worse than death is
public speaking.
And so now that you're in frontof the coach and they've got to
recite stuff they've memorized,they're in abject terror
Because I want them to recite itperfectly.
And so they're coming into themeeting intimidated anyway, all
(44:00):
right, honestly, most of themget through that because they're
so terrified.
They've all memorized the corevalues.
Then we get into basically thedifferent categories.
The first category we addressis self-discipline, and what we
have them do is we have themassess their own self-discipline
Because, keep in mind, I'mtrying to get their personal
(44:21):
narrative to the truth.
Well, how do I know what theirpersonal narrative is If I don't
ask them what it is?
So I am asking them and all ofthese different categories to
evaluate themselves, cause thisis a test of whether or not
their personal narrative is thetruth.
So I say all right, on a fivepoint scale, I want you to tell
(44:42):
me where your self-discipline is.
Is it US full national team andOlympic team level?
And if it is, I want you togive yourself a five.
If you think you're already at aprofessional level in this
category, I want you to giveyourself a 4.5.
If you think you are UNCstarter level already in this
(45:06):
category, I want you to giveyourself a 4.
We try to play a deep roster.
We try to play anywhere from 16to 20 players a game.
So this next question sort ofalludes to that.
If you think that you shouldplay in every half, give
yourself a 3.5.
That's a gift that plays inevery half.
(45:28):
They don't start but they getin for 10 to 15 minutes a half.
If you think you should makethe travel roster in this
category, give yourself a 3 allthe way down to.
If they want to give themselvesa zero, fine, but of course no
one ever gives them self a zero.
I'm so waiting, I guess, for I'mwaiting for Jesus Christ to
(45:49):
come in and give himself a zeroand something I want to see what
it might look like, but anyway,so yeah.
So now, all right,self-discipline.
What do you say?
And they're thinking this is afreshman.
Of course the kid wants tostart.
Now they're thinking, all right, what should I give myself?
Because, yeah, I don't thinkI'm ready for the Olympic team
(46:10):
or the full national team yet,no, I don't think I can sign a
pro contract yet, but Idefinitely want to start.
So then the kid says four,because four is UNC starter
level.
Then I say, okay, what's thestandard for the beep?
Here at the University of NorthCarolina?
The beep is an aerobic fitnesstest and the kid knows what it
(46:32):
is because they basically didthe beep maybe a week or two ago
.
The standard is a 40 on thebeep.
So I'll say well, you're givingyourself a four in
self-discipline and the standardwe have for the beep is 40,
(46:52):
what did you get on the beep?
Oh well, I got a 28.
I said, okay, inself-discipline, I'm going to
give you a 2.8.
And all of a sudden now thedream of starting has been
absolutely shattered.
And now she is in an even moreterror, because now she has this
huge fear that I have a datapoint for every single category
(47:17):
and now she is absolutelysweating herself.
So now lying has gone out thewindow for the rest of the
player conference.
Now she's realized that youknow, lying is just not going to
cut it with this guy.
This is going to be incrediblybrutal.
And then we go from one categoryto the next and all of a sudden
she's realizing oh, I mean, Ihave to kick everyone's ass in
(47:40):
practice to establish myself assomeone high in the competitive
cauldron.
Oh, I've got it.
They're realizing now that youknow mom and dad are not around
them protecting them from thechaos of the universe.
Now they're seeing failure andthey're seeing I've got to get
to work.
And you know, it's just, it's acompletely different experience
(48:01):
.
And so that's, and theconference.
Obviously we talk about a lotof other things, but you can see
the sort of what I'm trying todo for them.
Doug Smith (48:10):
And just real quick how often do you do that with
players?
You mentioned freshmen, but isthat once a year?
Is that every month, every week?
Anson Dorrance (48:17):
These things take about an hour, sometimes an
hour and a half.
So I meet with them once a fall, once in January and once just
before they leave to go home inthe summer.
So three times a year.
And then I've got a staffmember sitting in the player
conference with me and thisguy's taking notes down.
Then they get a very elaborategoal setting letter.
(48:40):
That's a follow up to this goalsetting meeting, because then
at the end of it we're doinggoal setting.
So what are your three greateststrengths?
What three things do you needto work on?
And then we talk about wherethey can lead, because we want
everyone on the team to be somekind of leader and it's just a
(49:00):
very in-depth, basicallyperformance review, if you will.
But, by the way, what's reallygood about the way this is
structured is I'm always tellingthem there's another level in
them and I'm also always tellingthem what they can do to change
their place.
So, assuming they're notstarting a part of the
(49:21):
conversation is right.
Here's how you start, becausethey're all interested in that
information.
Here's how you make the travelteam.
Here's how you get rotated intoeach game and the biggest
issues most kids have coming inthat are elite players coming in
, because every kid we recruitis an elite player.
But even a lot of the eliteplayers don't head, don't defend
, and so they realize that Iexpect them to be complete as
(49:45):
fast as possible, as certainlyif they want to play.
Doug Smith (49:49):
Yeah, oh, and so we're out of time.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned,I can go for hours.
Hopefully we can do this again.
I have so many more questions,but thank you for all the lives
that you've changed through yourleadership.
I know you've impacted theworld in a great way, and a lot
of women's lives specifically.
So thank you again andhopefully we'll do it again.
Anson Dorrance (50:05):
I certainly have no issue doing it again with
you, and I thoroughly enjoyedthe conversation, so good luck
to you.
Doug Smith (50:12):
Hey, thank you Take care.
Well, leader, thank you so muchfor listening to my conversation
with Anson.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at L3leadershiporg, slash
394.
And, as always, leader, I wantto challenge you that if you
want to attend extra growth thisyear, next year, then you need
to either launch or join an L3leadership mastermind group.
(50:32):
Mastermind groups are simplygroups of six to 12 leaders that
meet together on a consistentbasis for at least one year in
order to help each other grow,hold each other accountable and
to do life together.
For me personally, mastermindgroups have been the greatest
source of growth in my life overthe last eight years, and I
truly do believe that everyperson needs to be in a
mastermind group.
So if you're interested inlearning more about launching or
(50:52):
joining a group, go toL3leadershiporg slash
masterminds or email me atdugsmith at L3leadershiporg.
And, as always, I like to endevery episode of the quote, and
today I will quote AnsonDurrance himself, and he said
this.
He said competition is key todeveloping players.
The only practice environmentin which you truly develop a
player is a competitive arenaand I love that.
(51:15):
I just love, love, love thisinterview.
I hope you enjoyed as much as Idid.
Well, leader, know that Lauraand I, my wife Laura and I love
you.
We believe in you and I say itevery episode.
But don't quit, keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
I'll talk to you next episode.
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsat Bear Tongue Advisors.
We also recorded this episodelive from the newreturncom
studio.
If you're new to the podcast,welcome.
I'm so glad that you're hereand I hope that you enjoy our
(00:28):
content and become a subscriber.
I know that you can also watchall of our episodes over on our
YouTube channel, so make sureyou're subscribed there as well.
And, as always, if you've beenlistening to the podcast for a
while and it's made an impact onyour life, it would mean the
world to me if you would leaveus a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify or whateverapp you listen to podcast
through.
That really does help us togrow our audience and reach more
leaders, so thank you inadvance for that.
(00:50):
Well, leader, in this week'sepisode of the podcast, you are
in for a treat.
You're going to hear myconversation with coach Anson
Durant, who is an absolutelegend.
If you're unfamiliar with coach, let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Anson has been coach of theUniversity of North Carolina's
women's soccer team for over 47years.
In fact, he is the one and onlycoach that the program has ever
had and under his coaching andleadership he has led the teams
(01:13):
that he's led to 22 nationalchampionships.
He has been a time coach of theyear.
He was coach of the 1991 WorldCup champion team Team USA.
He's a Hall of Famer, a leaderand mentor to so many, and in
our conversation you're going tohear him talk about what he
calls the competitive cauldron,which is incredible.
You're going to hear him talkabout what separated him from
(01:33):
all the other coaches andcompetition, what separates the
great players from everybodyelse, how to draw potential out
of others, and so much more.
And all I can really tell youis buckle up, get out your pen
and paper and get ready to takea massive amount of notes.
This was one of my favoriteinterviews of all time and I
just can't wait for you tolisten.
But before we get into theconversation, just a few
(01:53):
announcements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BeratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by
visiting their website atberatungadvisors.
com.
That'sB-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom.
(02:16):
Securities and investmentproducts and services offered
through LPL Financial.
Member of FINRA and SIPC.
Beratung Advisors, LPLFinancial and L3 Leadership are
separate entities.
I also want to thank our He nneJewelers.
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In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
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interested in investing.
And with all that being said,here's my conversation with
coach Anson Durrance.
Well, Anson, welcome to the L3Leadership Podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis for quite some time.
(03:21):
You have an unbelievable resume, probably one of the greatest
on earth.
You've been a coach at UNC for47 years the only coach in
history.
Career record of 1,093 wins,150 losses in 66 ties, have 22
national titles.
You are on, and I could go onand on.
(03:43):
You led the team USA to thefirst ever women's cup.
I can let you talk more aboutthis, but tell us a little bit
about yourself and I'm curiousspecifically what do you think
has set you apart?
There's thousands of coachesall over the nation.
What has set you apart to seesuch incredible results versus
everyone else who may not?
Anson Dorrance (04:00):
Well, honestly, there's no sort of mythical, I
guess, algorithm for winning incollegiate athletics.
You've got to be an effectiverecruiter, and obviously I
worked for a remarkableuniversity that's very
attractive, and so we've been ina position to recruit some
incredible student athletes.
(04:20):
And so anyone in collegiateathletics that pretends that
they win for reasons other thanthe talent they have on their
roster is just, you know,bloviating in the most negative
way.
So, no, I've had a collectionof amazing young women that,
have you know, killed themselvesto compete at the highest level
, and I worked for a universitythat's very attractive, and so
(04:44):
for me it certainly comes downto the elite athletes that we've
attracted to the university.
And then I think, there youknow, once you do have these
amazing athletes, you have amoral imperative to try to take
them to their potential.
And I think we have threedifferent elements that I think
assist us in getting to ourpotential.
(05:04):
And the first element issomething that I think is talked
about consistently, and Iappreciate the fact that is
talked about consistently,because this has been a huge
weapon for us from the beginning.
I believe that if you want tobecome elite at anything, you've
got to compete, and so thisthing that we've stolen from
(05:25):
Dean Smith and the men'sbasketball team here at the
University of North Carolina hasserved us incredibly well, and
it's a thing we call thecompetitive cauldron, and I'll
share the backstory for itbecause I think you'll
appreciate this.
I was a young coach here at UNC,you know, wet behind the ears,
and we had this absolutelybrilliant man on campus that we
(05:46):
all admired by the name of DeanSmith, and for those of you that
don't know who this gentlemanis, this is Michael Jordan, this
college basketball coach, andhe was an extraordinary man, not
just an extraordinary coach, hewas an extraordinary man and he
was such a generous human being.
He came up to me one day, whenI was, you know, recently, hired
(06:07):
, wet behind the ears andbasically said you know, hanson,
if you're bored one afternoon,you want to come watch us
practice basketball?
You know, please let my, mystaff know, and we'll set you
and your staff in the, you know,in the auditorium and the
Carmichael Center.
This is where, you know,michael Jordan basically
finished his basketball career.
(06:28):
Of course, they've built theSmith Center since then, but
we'll put you in Carmichael andyou can watch the practice and
and I'm thinking this isunbelievable.
So this guy's going to let mecome, you know, watch practice.
And and I thought it wasincredible so, of course, yes,
yes, this is Dean Smith, I mean,he's a God here in Chapel Hill
Then he's invited me to watchpractice.
Now, of course, of course.
(06:48):
And so I show up one day and ofcourse I mustered in.
I have to show up at a certaintime.
It's incredibly structured andI have to sit in a certain place
with my assistants.
We're not allowed to talkduring the practice or not
interfering with what's going on.
And what was also fascinatingfor me is I am handed by one of
his managers, and so is everyone of my staff members, an
(07:10):
outline of the practice.
Now I'm looking down at thisthing and first of all, I can't
believe it because it looks likehe's organized the practice to
the minute.
I have never organized apractice to the minute.
I've got sort of a general ideaof what's going to go on that
day.
I know it's going to be a hardday or a medium day or a light
day.
I know the practice is going tolast an hour and a half or
(07:32):
something, and that's what Iknow.
And other than that I don'tknow anything.
And then I started inventingstuff to do during the practice
based on my own experiences as aplayer.
And now I'm looking down at thisagenda for the training session
that day and I just can'tbelieve it.
And first of all, I can'tbelieve that someone wrote all
this down.
How does anyone have timeduring the day to actually write
(07:52):
down what's going to happen inpractice?
Because I was used to justbeing in sheer chaos every day
of my coaching life, couldn'tcatch up with anything.
Even getting on this podcastwas difficult for me.
Why?
Because I get like 400 emails aday.
I am harassed from everypossible corridor, which is why
I wanted you to send me thislink five minutes before we're
(08:15):
on.
Why?
Because if you sent it an hourbefore we were on, I'd never
find it.
So, anyway, thank goodnesswe're actually on this thing
together, but anyway.
So I'm looking at this agendaand I am shocked.
And then, of course, he followsit.
So, yeah, you know it's suchand such a time the warmup
begins, and then, all of asudden, noise goes off and then
they go to their first trainingenvironment and the players all
(08:37):
scatter, going in differentdirections the guards are going
here, the forwards are goinghere, the bigs are underneath
the basket playing 2v2 orsomething and all of a sudden
the noise goes off again.
They all sprint somewhere elseand incredibly organized and
down to the minute.
I'm now looking down on mywatch thing and, oh my gosh,
yeah, they are exactly on timeand I'm just I'm stunned.
(08:58):
First of all, they actuallyhave an agenda and then they
follow the agenda.
Yeah, one day I decided towrite out my practice.
After the practice, I looked atit and I was thinking, holy
crap, I didn't do any of thisstuff.
We have the year in thepractice and I was thinking this
is amazing.
Now Dean Smith is following hisown practice outline and first
of all, I'm stunned.
But the other thing I noticedpretty early is underneath every
(09:20):
basket is an assistant managerwith a clipboard and I can see
these guys writing data down onthe clipboards.
Obviously, if it's a free throwshooting station, they're
recording of the hits or missesfor all the kids.
If it's a mid-range jumperstation and I assume now it
would be a three-point shootingstation as well as they're all
(09:43):
doing these different things.
And then, of course, you've gotthese 3V3s full court with the
guards playing against eachother, and the 4s are doing that
, and the centers are doing that, and then it's 4V4, sometimes
5V5.
And I assume the winners andlosers are being assailed and
accumulated Every now and again.
You look at underneath one ofthe baskets and the four bigs
(10:03):
are there playing 2V2.
And I assume they're writingdown whether or not you boxed
out for the rebound or failed to, whether or not you got a
rebound or failed to, whether ornot the putback was something
you did or what someone else did.
So anyway, I am watching all ofthis data collection and I am
stunned.
And then at the end of practiceand sure enough, it followed the
(10:24):
practice outline the noise goesoff, practice is over and they
all sprint.
These guys with theseclipboards, these managers, have
sprinted to the score stable.
The head manager is nowcompiling that day's practice
data.
Dean now is addressing the boysand he's chatting them in the
vid and by the time he turnsaround, the head manager has
(10:47):
compiled that day's practicedata.
Every player is now ranked forperformance in that practice and
so if he has a 12th playerroster that year, the first four
or five guys can leave andshower immediately.
The next eight or nine kids arenow lined up on whatever you
call the end line on abasketball court and now they're
(11:09):
sprinting out to the foul lineand back, then to the
mid-striping, back and to theother foul line and back and to
the other end of the court andback, and they're all doing this
on a clock because the noisegoes off and if they're late
they've got to either go againor do a push-up or a set-up or
something, and then that groupleaves and then of the final
(11:29):
group that's been there thewhole time, I assume the last
four guys in practice aresprinting until the end of
recorded time and I'm thinking,oh my gosh, this is fantastic.
I loved the accountability of it, I loved the measurement of it,
I loved the immediate feedbackof it and I'm thinking this is
incredible.
So I got together with my staffand we designed a soccer
(11:53):
competitive cauldron and fromthen on we recorded everything
in practice and this just suitedmy personality.
I'm an alpha.
I would love to know at the endof every practice I'm the best
player on the field and I assumethat everyone knew that if I
was out there.
Yeah, but I would love itcertified with data, so there is
no contention about who was thebest that day.
(12:16):
And so, yeah, data can certifyit for you.
So I love this.
And so, all of a sudden, westarted organizing practices
where we would competeeventually, and it ended up 28
different categories, and at theend of every practice we'd
assemble the data and then myassistant analytics team would
get together and they would rankthe kids in practice and then
(12:38):
we would put on a bulletin boardthe next day for practice in 28
different categories where youranked.
We wouldn't necessarily do 28different competitive things a
day.
We would obviously, at thebeginning of the year you're
doing your fitness testing, soyou would have your beep test,
which is a measure of youraerobic capacity.
You would do sprint tests thatwould show your acceleration and
(13:01):
your 30 meter speed.
You would have agility testsand vertical jump tests, and
that stuff is up there from thebeginning so you can see where
you stack up against the rest ofyour teammates.
And then, of course, you'recompeting 1v1 tournaments, 77
tournaments, 11v11 events andheading ladders where you're
trying to battle people in theair.
(13:21):
And so we took our game ofsoccer and we took it down to
its fundamental base and wecompeted in everything we could.
So all of a sudden it's evolvedto the point where, on a 30
player roster, where four kidson the roster are goalkeepers,
the other 26 are field players,everyone's ranked in 28
(13:45):
different categories based ontheir success in competing in
practice.
And so this cauldron hasdeveloped a team that's
extraordinarily competitive, andin my opinion, it makes a
difference year to year becauseour teams are consistently
competitive.
We're competitive in every gamewe play in, and a lot of even
(14:05):
great teams will beat a goodteam one day and then get
slaughtered by a good team thenext, and one of my favorite
statistics of all time is thisstatistic where for 603 games in
a row, we either won the game,tied the game or lost it by just
(14:26):
one goal.
So for 603 games in a row, wewere in it until the last second
, and almost every other teamthat we see in our Vietnam again
loses by two goals, orsometimes three or four.
That doesn't happen to us, orwhen it happens, it's incredibly
rare.
And I think what the cauldrondoes for you, it makes you
(14:49):
extraordinarily competitive, andI think a part of this is these
kids being bathed in thiscauldron of accountability, and
I think it's made all thedifference in the world for our
teams from the beginning.
So I think that's one elementthat separates our environment
for player development.
The other element that I willnever undervalue are the core
(15:13):
values that we expect our kidsto live by.
If you jumped online right nowand typed into your web browser
UNC, women's Soccer Core Values,hopefully the most recent
rendition of them would pop up.
We have 13 core values and weexpect all the kids to live by
them, and it's basically aprinciple-centered living.
This might shock anyonelistening to this podcast, but I
(15:37):
don't believe in rules.
I don't even believe in havinga rule of showing up on time,
but we expect everyone to showup on time Because if you read
through our core values, it'sabout respecting people, it's
about respecting yourself, it'sabout making good choices, and
so, of course, even withoutbeing told to show up on time,
(15:58):
you will show up on time Becauseyou're going to respect the
people that have organized thepractice of the meeting, and
this is all a part of leading aprinciple-centered life.
And so we don't believe incertain things and we have core
values that admonish you frompracticing them.
Like the first thing that everyplayer in our team memorizes is
this quote about not whining.
(16:19):
I don't know about you, but Iabsolutely abhor winers.
They drive me absolutely crazy,and almost all cultures are
filled with winers.
I don't embrace it, I neverwant to hear it.
And so the first core valueeveryone memorizes that we
expect them to live is a GeorgeBernard Shaw quote about being a
(16:41):
force of fortune instead of afeverish, selfish little cloud
of ailments and grievances,complaining that the world will
not devote itself to making youhappy, because that's basically
what a whiner is.
And my favorite core value is aVictor Franco quote about the
last of the human freedoms,which is to choose your attitude
(17:02):
in any given set ofcircumstances, to choose your
own way.
So we have all these principles, and the way the principles are
framed are not with sort ofordinary language.
They're framed with quotes thatI think are inspiring, and we
expect our kids to memorizethese inspiring quotations and
then live them.
(17:22):
And then, twice a year, theyoung women in our team
basically evaluate everyteammate on each of the 13 core
values.
And if you were to attend ourathletic banquet, basically in
the spring of every year, thetop award of this banquet is not
the MVP and, by the way, we'vehad some extraordinary MVPs I'm
(17:45):
Meneah Ham, christine Lilly,crystal Dunn, tobin Heath, cindy
Parlow I could go down a listof names that would just be
shocking relative to mostprograms that are out there.
So we have some amazing MVPs,but that's not the top award at
our athletic banquet.
The top award at our athleticbanquet is the Kelly Muldoon
(18:06):
Award for Character.
So which player on the team, onbasically a peer vote, in
living the 13 core values lives,a principle-centered life, the
best?
So I think my main job as thewomen's soccer coach at the
University of North Carolina isnot to win ACC regular season
(18:27):
championships or ACC tournamentchampionships or national
championships.
I think my main job at theUniversity of North Carolina is
to help cultivate and developextraordinary human beings, and
so the cauldron is a criticalelement for us.
The core values are anothercritical element.
And then the final piece is amore modern problem, and this is
(18:52):
the problem of basicallygetting everyone's personal
narrative to the truth.
What's happening right now iswe're raising our kids
differently, and the way we'reraising them right now is we're
raising them basicallyprotecting them from the chaos
of the universe, and in doingthat we're basically eliminating
(19:13):
them having any standards andwe're eliminating them having
any accountability.
And I'm certainly not asociologist or a psychologist,
so I'm going to throw somethingout there, and who knows what
I'm about to throw out is basedin any sort of truth.
But here's what I speculate.
I speculate that somewhere backthere there was this self-esteem
(19:36):
movement that was beingdeveloped by, who knows, maybe
child psychologists or maybe acollection of sociologists, but
I think it became mainstream andI think the theory back then
was all right, I want mychildren to develop an
incredible amount of self-esteem, and one of the best ways to
create self-esteem is toobviously be positive with your
(19:57):
children, and please don't thinkI'm sitting here telling
everyone not to be positive withyour children.
Of course you should be, but Ithink what ended up happening is
that sentiment, which I thinkoriginally was a positive one,
went in the wrong direction.
Because then what started tohappen with these parents that
weren't experienced sociologistsor experienced psychologists
(20:20):
basically started to praisetheir children for anything they
did, with the illusion that ifthey could construct a platform
of basically self-esteem withtheir children, they were going
to conquer the world, and allthat ended up happening is they
ended up crippling theirchildren, and one of the biggest
problems I have when a kidcomes into play.
For me at the University ofNorth Carolina is their
(20:42):
self-esteem, and their basicallypersonal narrative has been
constructed by loving parents,by the way, that wanted to
protect them from the chaos inthe universe and then basically
were not critical of anythingthey did.
And so now they think they'reGod's gift to the earth.
And boy is that entitledindividual almost impossible to
(21:06):
deal with, because they allthink they should start and play
90 minutes, and what they don'tunderstand is there are 30
players in the roster and if youwant to get on the field,
you've got to compete to get onthe field.
In other words, if you want toget on the field, you have to
kick everyone's ass in practiceand that gets you on the field.
And if someone on the otherteam is kicking your ass in the
game, you're coming out and I'mgoing to try someone else to
(21:30):
take up for the slack that youbasically gave the other team
that got them in the game orbasically allowed them to plant
their flag in your zone.
And so, basically, this isabout accountability.
This is about Dean Smith andhis managers making sure that
every kid that left practiceknew whether or not they were
the alpha that day.
And, trust me, failing everyday is humiliating in a very
(21:53):
positive way, because the firstthing you gather is you know
what, you're not the greatestthing on the planet and you've
got some work to do.
And that humility inspires, Ithink, all the great ones,
because all the great ones dowant to leave practice every day
.
Being declared the alpha and oneof the best teachers they've
ever had in their lives isfailure.
(22:14):
And so the third piece that'scritical for me is to get every
kid's personal narrative to thetruth as fast as possible, and
they have never been told thetruth in their lives, and now
they have this collision coursewith me, and the truth is so
painful for them to hear becausethey've never heard it before.
(22:34):
Mom and dad have only seen thebest player on every team
they've ever played on.
Why?
Because we're in that luxuriousposition.
We don't recruit the secondbest player on any team.
We recruit the best player onthe team, and oftentimes the
kids that we recruit are notjust the best player on that
team, they're also the bestplayer in that league, and then
(22:54):
oftentimes the best player inthat state and oftentimes again,
the best player east of theMississippi and sometimes the
best player in the country.
So all these kids are coming intogether and guess what?
With all those kids here,there's a new hierarchy.
They're not the best anymoreand now they've got to learn to
live with the fact that they'vegot to do more work and then
possibly be this thing calledcoachable, which means listening
(23:18):
to the stuff we're sharing withthem, if they want to get to
the promised land, and this isdifficult for them.
They've never suffered in thisway in their whole lives.
And then, of course, who aretheir touchstones?
Following a practice orfollowing a game, their parents,
and their parents are listeningto them.
And what are they telling theirparents?
A lot of times they're tellingtheir parents absolute BS.
(23:41):
There's very few kids call homeand say, oh, by the way, we had
our first practice today and,by the way, my ass was handed to
me in every single minute ofthe practice.
Very rarely does a kid fallhome with that, but, by the way,
and a lot of these practices,their asses were handed to them.
But it's not informationthey're sharing with their
(24:01):
parents.
So, honey, how did it go today?
Oh, mom and dad, it was greatand I did a really good job, you
know, and I did this and thatand the other thing, and all of
a sudden, now the parent isshocked on the weekend when
their kid is not even gettinginto the game.
And now, of course, who's toblame?
Well, I'm to blame, well, Imight have blamed, because their
little darling, who clearly wasawesome, isn't being played,
(24:23):
and so it's really funny.
And so what was really cool isobviously being a part of an
elite university.
We have these brilliant men andwomen that come lecture to us
all the time on the sort ofpeople we're dealing with, and
so I remember this and I'llremember this for the rest of my
life.
Every five years or so, webring in the eminent
(24:43):
sociologists to tell us whowe're recruiting, who we're
coaching to help us so we don'tmake any egregious errors.
And so this guy came in in 2012and he was the eminent
sociologist on campus and he wasa brilliant lecturer and,
honestly, between you and meright now, I can't remember a
thing he said, and the reason Ican't remember a thing he said
because the first slides heshowed with all of us I will
(25:07):
remember for the rest of my life, and it was a summary of what
he was saying in the lecture,and here's what they are.
The first slide he put on theboard had the date 1969 at the
top.
I'll never forget that date.
That's the date I graduatedfrom high school.
That's why I brought in fromthe next room someone that was
born, you know.
(25:27):
A lot later they had to fixthis computer so I could
actually get on your podcastbecause I was, you know,
graduated high school in 1969.
So in that slide 1969, this kidis coming home from school and
this kid has all Fs on hisreport card.
The parents are streaming atthe kid.
(25:48):
Then the next slide shifted tothe year he was giving the
lecture, which was 2012.
2012,.
The kid comes from school, allFs on his report card, and now
what's happening?
The parents are screaming atthe teacher.
So it's been a paradigm shift.
(26:08):
So now, of course, it's not yourfault, honey.
This teacher obviously doesn'tknow what they're doing.
She's not teaching you properly.
Obviously, if they taught youproperly and inspired you, you
would have an A on this, and nowyou're certainly being
undermined by this destructiveteacher.
Now the kid's feeling greatbecause, of course, it's a
teacher's fault.
It's not the teacher's fault,it's the culture in the home's
(26:32):
fault.
And all of a sudden what they'redoing for their poor little kid
.
They've completely eliminatedstandards from this kid's life,
because whatever the kid does isabsolutely fine.
But the other thing they'reundermining is they're
undermining authority figuresfor this child, and so now
anyone they collide with for therest of their lives, the kid's
gonna assume that this person iscompromising them.
(26:54):
And the parent has just turnedthis basically bag of garbage
into someone that's never gonnasucceed in the real world.
And that's on them.
So what's my job?
My job is to try to convertthem into people that see the
truth now, because, guess what,you've got some work to do.
So if I had to summarize whatwe do here, I would put it in
(27:19):
those three silos.
Obviously, we can drill intoany part of those three that you
like.
Doug Smith (27:24):
Yeah, two follow up questions to that.
Specifically One I am curious.
I mean you're getting the mostcompetitive kids on the planet
and they're still coming in withthat entitlement attitude.
You said it's almost impossibleto turn them.
How often do you actually seesomeone come in that can
actually change and develop thehumility necessary to do
whatever it takes to get towhere they need to go?
Anson Dorrance (27:44):
Well, these are the superstars.
Every now and again, you'llbring in a kid that, right out
of the get go, is takingresponsibility for everything,
and obviously their combinationof factors with that one is
they're well raised and they dorespect authority.
So when you tell them they needto do this, they jump on it
immediately.
They don't whine and complainto their parents about it.
(28:05):
They're the masters of theirown universe and they don't
require any sort of gentle hugsfrom their parents to survive.
These are kids that are goingto make it, and so those are the
kids that can step in and,along the way, their parents
have educated them about failureand the value of failure and
(28:27):
the value of takingresponsibility for everything,
and so we've got a whole set ofcore values that will help them
go in that direction.
In fact, let me see if I canfind our book right here.
So yeah, so here is.
I had a class of leaders thatwas really concerned with this
(28:50):
sort of thing infecting the team, and so I'll read this thing to
you this is our 13th core value, and this was and, by the way,
my leaders dictate whether ornot we keep the core value,
change it, et cetera, et cetera.
So, in this particular year, myleadership council, which are
made up of basically all thejuniors and the team.
(29:11):
This is in the spring, so allthe seniors have gone pro, and
so now the juniors are decidingwhat we're gonna live by.
And so the juniors got together, so all the juniors are on the
leadership council one sophomore, one freshman and here's what
they came up with.
Here's the way they wanted tolive.
So here's what we constructedtogether as a collection of team
(29:31):
leaders and me.
So it's the 13th core value.
It says accountable.
This is the biggest challengefor the millennials.
Now is the period to escape theprotections of loving parents
who don't want you to get hurt.
You have four years to getready for chaos of the universe.
(29:53):
Mark Cohen, an award-winning UNCassistant professor of English
and comparative literature, whenasked who was the best teacher
you ever had and why, said thisthe best teacher I've ever had
is failure.
Samuel Beckett said it bestEver tried, ever failed, no
matter.
Try again, fail again, failbetter.
(30:17):
And here is what every kidmemorizes that they're being
evaluated against by all oftheir peers.
So here's what they have torecite to me in every player
conference Some want to beexempt, they do not want to
excel, they do not want to exert, they want to be considered
excellent for desiring to beheld exempt from all
(30:38):
accountability.
And that's a quote I stole fromBeau.
Here is what we added to it,and this is basically a
combination of my conversationswith my leadership counsel.
So, and what protects them fromall accountability?
Their own narrative that is notinterested in exploring their
potential but is crafted to keepthem comfortable while
(30:59):
recruiting every possible excusealong the way.
So how do we want to live?
And obviously we, as the UNCWomen's Soccer Culture To
paraphrase Alex Ferguson ofBanyou fame we want to take
responsibility for our ownactions, our own errors, our own
performance level and,eventually, for every result.
So this is a collection of kidsthat have decided yep, we want
(31:22):
to be held accountable.
And obviously we've got 13 ofthese.
All anyone needs to do is justjump on the internet and just
type in UNC Women's Soccer CoreValues and all 13 of them will
pop up.
Doug Smith (31:36):
Yeah, so not.
I'm a dad of four, four kidsunder seven, two girls, two boys
.
My wife played soccer on thepreventive side.
If you could give an address tothe nation Specifically
addressing parents, you know Ican at least speak for my wife
and I.
We want to raise accountablekids.
We're gonna raise kids that youknow you'd be proud.
That play for you.
What would your I yeah, I'lljust leave it open ended what
(31:57):
would you tell parents in orderto raise great kids who are
actually prepared for the world,versus not?
Anson Dorrance (32:04):
basically To allow them to embrace failure.
And in my opinion, one of thegreatest aspects of sport is
failing and coming back, failingand coming back again, failing
and coming back again, because,boy, you develop a certain
resilience level.
That's absolutely remarkable.
But also, don't have anydelusions of grandeur.
(32:25):
My wife and I joke about thisall the time.
I've got a kid Kid.
She's in her early 40s now.
She was, you know, climbing thedance world and Of course, I
deal with these parents who, youknow, have a completely Bizarre
(32:47):
view of their own children.
And she's a Dance instructor.
She taught at Duke for 33 yearsin their dance program and then
she danced professionally foryears before she married me and
started teaching.
And so we're very, very wary ofParents that, you know, I guess
(33:08):
, give their children falsepraise.
So, yeah, if our kids didsomething well, you know we
hugged them and you know tellthem.
You know we told them greatstuff, but we never protected
them from failure.
And one of our favorite momentswas actually this kid of ours.
If you type her into a Googlesearch, you'll be shocked at
what she's achieved.
(33:28):
Her name is Michelle, michelleDoran's.
She is a rhythm tap dancer.
She has her own dance companycalled Doran's dance and she had
just won a Bessie.
I think a Bessie is a topperformer in New York and
Melissa and I obviously are veryproud she's won this award and
(33:51):
she was nominated.
So we were in the room whenthey were announcing the Bessie
award winners and, you know, wedidn't know that she was gonna
win this award, but we wereinvited to be a part of this.
Of course we're very proud ofher that she was even included,
nominated in this, and all of asudden they announced that she
was the Bessie award winner andmy wife and I turned to each
other and we finally said youknow what?
(34:13):
Maybe she's pretty good.
I think what's critical is toalways make sure when you're
raising your kids they're feederon the ground and always make
sure.
And you know this is stuff thatall of us can learn from you
know a Carol Dweck, I mean.
Basically, have a growthmindset.
(34:34):
Have you know?
You know talk about potential,talk about the next level.
Never talk about you knowyou've done enough or you've
arrived, because that's thefirst day of your you going
backwards.
So, yeah, I think that'scritical for all of us that
raised children, but also to seeif we can help them construct a
(34:57):
principal center, because Ithink having a principal center
is gonna help guide your life inthe most positive way.
But taking responsibility foreverything, because when we
start to make up excuses for allof our failures, holy cow,
we're gonna basically make surewe will never achieve anything.
And if you want to achieveeverything, take responsibility
(35:18):
for everything you can.
And then what you're saying isI'm in a position to change
where I am, and If excuses arewhat protects you from the chaos
, the universe, you're nevergonna go anywhere.
Take responsibility foreverything, even if it's not
your fault, to sort of try tofigure out a way to take
responsibility for all thesedifferent elements so that you
(35:39):
can make a change.
And so, yeah, that's that's socritical for all of us raising
our kids.
Doug Smith (35:46):
So good You've coached.
You coach the best of the best,you recruit the best of the
best, and I love the competitivecauldron.
You've coached 19 differentplayers.
The national player of the yearhonors You've been.
You mentioned people like CindyParlow, mia Ham, so you you're
bringing into the greatest.
But then there's those whoseparate themselves.
I'm just curious when you seethe Mia Hams of the world, are
there specific traits that theyhad when you coach them that you
(36:08):
just that do allow them toseparate themselves from
Everyone else?
Who is great?
Anson Dorrance (36:15):
First of all, that's a great question.
First of all, everyone isDifferent, so please don't
assume for a second that when Istart to give you these
generalizations that you canapply these.
You know, across the board Ithink we're all wonderfully
different.
We all have to be leddifferently Because we're all
different.
When I meet with my kids, Italk about all these different
(36:38):
categories.
If they want to becomeextraordinary and these are like
boxes they have to check and Istole this from a gentleman that
was hired by the NBA and theNFL and the Basically all the
pro teams to sort out whether ornot to draft this player or
that player.
(36:59):
And he is this guy that sets upa psychological profile and he
goes into the home of someonethat you're hoping to draft and
he has.
You take this, this profile andthis profile.
When I started reading aboutthis guy first Was to sort out
if you had self-discipline,competitive fire and self-belief
.
And this guy had an incrediblehit rate 85% of the time.
(37:22):
When he was given someone toassess and you followed his
advice, he was spot on.
So he added a 15% you know, IGuess failure rate, but 85%
successful.
So if you went in and you hadthis guy and you hired this guy
and you were saying, well,should I, you know, draft
Michael Jordan?
And Michael Jordan fill thisprofile out, and, sure enough,
(37:44):
he came up in spades withself-discipline, competitive
fire and self-belief, and thenthis guy would say, yeah,
obviously, draft this guy, butthere are a lot of people out
there, even Heisman Trophywinners In football, that don't
make it in professional football.
And so, and all of us know, andobviously on draft day, the
stories are Legend for thepeople that are, you know,
(38:05):
drafted first, that don't makeit, and people that are drafted
last that make it.
Of course, what's the greateststory of all time?
It's Tom Brady.
Tom Brady, yep, tom Bradydrafted 199.
Are you freaking, kidding me?
All these guys that were paid asmall fortune to assess talent
Drafted this guy 199th.
(38:25):
Can we go back and fire thatwhole you know Advisors?
I mean, are you kidding me?
That guy will retire, thegreatest football player of all
time, and he's drafted at 199th.
And the reason I'm bringing upthis story is because it's so
difficult to assess Talent.
So what are the elements thatare going to stretch you?
(38:48):
What are the elements thatyou're taking to the Promised
Land?
So I start with those three thecauldron your rank in the
cauldron is your competitivefire ring.
You're you're basically.
Your other ranks can beassessed.
Other ways in which you can bea player Can be assessed other
ways in the different datacollections that we use.
(39:09):
So self-discipline we basicallyuse fitness testing,
competitive fire we use thecauldron.
And self-belief is something Iwill not touch.
I will never negatively touchanyone's self-belief.
So if a kid thinks they'reGod's gift of the game, I'm
never gonna say you're not,because you know what.
(39:30):
If I think you suck and youthink you're great, it's gonna
be shocking how often you'regonna have your own self-belief
and get to a completelydifferent level because of that
self-belief.
So a kid gets to give her ownself-belief grade in a player
conference with me and I'm nevergonna touch it Because I've had
(39:50):
several players that, lookingat them, I'm thinking you know
you are the most ordinarycreature of all, but your
self-belief is off the charts.
Then it's amazing what you cando with this self-belief, wow.
And so that's something I amnever gonna touch.
But we have other categories welook at.
I call this the love trilogy.
If you want to become a lead insoccer, you gotta love the ball
(40:10):
.
You've got a love playing thegame and you've got a love
watching the game, and if thosethree loves aren't a part of
your soccer development, you'renever gonna make it at the
highest level.
If you don't love the ball,you're not gonna spend enough
time with it to master it.
So anyone that's watched TobinHeath play, that young lady
loved the ball and as a result,she had this amazing ball
(40:32):
mastery that all of us love herfor.
Just because watching her play,it's clear she mastered the
ball.
So self-discipline, competitivefire, self-belief, love of the
ball, love of playing the game,love of watching the game these
are all critical, and there'sinvariably a piece missing, even
among the elite athletes.
What's my job?
My job is to take him to thepromised land.
(40:54):
There are other pieces.
There's an athletic platformthat's critical, and sometimes
this is dictated by yourgenetics.
Can you impact on it?
Yes, you can, but not to anincredible degree, but that's
also a factor at an elite level.
But so is your ability toconnect with the people around
you.
Connection is critical.
How do you connect?
Do you connect?
(41:15):
Because if you don't, that'sgonna interfere.
Certainly in a team sportthat's gonna interfere.
And then there are other thingsthat make a huge difference in
practice, but also make a hugedifference in you elevating your
practice, and that's energizing.
You bring energy to practice,are you a positive life force,
and, though some kids have cometo practice and I tell them this
(41:36):
all the time they bring suchjoy, my gosh.
The whole practice is liftedbecause of their joy.
In practice, they're energizingis at a completely different
level.
And then another absolutelycritical piece is leadership,
and they're all kinds of leaders.
You can certainly lead byexample.
You can lead, you know, bybeing a chemistry leader on the
(41:58):
team.
You can lead by all thesedifferent ways.
The most important leadershipquality for me, though, is
verbal leadership.
The biggest challenges inwomen's athletics is verbal
leadership.
They're so afraid of what theirteammates are gonna think of
them when they try to leadverbally and, as a result, it
prevents so many of them frombeing these extroverted,
(42:20):
aggressive, classic verballeaders, and we've gotta change
that in our culture when weraise these extraordinary young
women, because, as leaders, theycan be extraordinary, because
one quality they have in spadesis they are generally a lot more
compassionate and they haveother aspects of trust that I
(42:40):
think can make teams so muchbetter, and so this is a piece
we have to address aggressively,and so, if you look at those
elements, you have to check allthose boxes if you wanna get to
the promised land.
Doug Smith (42:53):
I'm loving this conversation.
I feel like I could do a fourhour interview with you, but we
don't have time for that.
One thing I wanna follow up onthat I've heard you allude to a
few times is player coachconferences or something like
that.
You said they have to reciteback to you the core values and
things like that.
What does that look like andwhat does candor look like from
you as a coach, one on one?
Anson Dorrance (43:14):
Yeah, first of all, as you can tell from this
conversation, I'm data driven,so data is candor and basically,
if and everyone of my kidsknows it well I'll give you an
example of this sort of candor.
So I'm gonna give you a typicalfirst meeting with an incoming
freshman at the University ofNorth Carolina.
(43:35):
Of course, they come into theseplayer conferences and they're
all terrified Because, first ofall, they have to recite the
core values, and the only thingman fears worse than death is
public speaking.
And so now that you're in frontof the coach and they've got to
recite stuff they've memorized,they're in abject terror
Because I want them to recite itperfectly.
And so they're coming into themeeting intimidated anyway, all
(44:00):
right, honestly, most of themget through that because they're
so terrified.
They've all memorized the corevalues.
Then we get into basically thedifferent categories.
The first category we addressis self-discipline, and what we
have them do is we have themassess their own self-discipline
Because, keep in mind, I'mtrying to get their personal
(44:21):
narrative to the truth.
Well, how do I know what theirpersonal narrative is If I don't
ask them what it is?
So I am asking them and all ofthese different categories to
evaluate themselves, cause thisis a test of whether or not
their personal narrative is thetruth.
So I say all right, on a fivepoint scale, I want you to tell
(44:42):
me where your self-discipline is.
Is it US full national team andOlympic team level?
And if it is, I want you togive yourself a five.
If you think you're already at aprofessional level in this
category, I want you to giveyourself a 4.5.
If you think you are UNCstarter level already in this
(45:06):
category, I want you to giveyourself a 4.
We try to play a deep roster.
We try to play anywhere from 16to 20 players a game.
So this next question sort ofalludes to that.
If you think that you shouldplay in every half, give
yourself a 3.5.
That's a gift that plays inevery half.
(45:28):
They don't start but they getin for 10 to 15 minutes a half.
If you think you should makethe travel roster in this
category, give yourself a 3 allthe way down to.
If they want to give themselvesa zero, fine, but of course no
one ever gives them self a zero.
I'm so waiting, I guess, for I'mwaiting for Jesus Christ to
(45:49):
come in and give himself a zeroand something I want to see what
it might look like, but anyway,so yeah.
So now, all right,self-discipline.
What do you say?
And they're thinking this is afreshman.
Of course the kid wants tostart.
Now they're thinking, all right, what should I give myself?
Because, yeah, I don't thinkI'm ready for the Olympic team
(46:10):
or the full national team yet,no, I don't think I can sign a
pro contract yet, but Idefinitely want to start.
So then the kid says four,because four is UNC starter
level.
Then I say, okay, what's thestandard for the beep?
Here at the University of NorthCarolina?
The beep is an aerobic fitnesstest and the kid knows what it
(46:32):
is because they basically didthe beep maybe a week or two ago
.
The standard is a 40 on thebeep.
So I'll say well, you're givingyourself a four in
self-discipline and the standardwe have for the beep is 40,
(46:52):
what did you get on the beep?
Oh well, I got a 28.
I said, okay, inself-discipline, I'm going to
give you a 2.8.
And all of a sudden now thedream of starting has been
absolutely shattered.
And now she is in an even moreterror, because now she has this
huge fear that I have a datapoint for every single category
(47:17):
and now she is absolutelysweating herself.
So now lying has gone out thewindow for the rest of the
player conference.
Now she's realized that youknow, lying is just not going to
cut it with this guy.
This is going to be incrediblybrutal.
And then we go from one categoryto the next and all of a sudden
she's realizing oh, I mean, Ihave to kick everyone's ass in
(47:40):
practice to establish myself assomeone high in the competitive
cauldron.
Oh, I've got it.
They're realizing now that youknow mom and dad are not around
them protecting them from thechaos of the universe.
Now they're seeing failure andthey're seeing I've got to get
to work.
And you know, it's just, it's acompletely different experience
(48:01):
.
And so that's, and theconference.
Obviously we talk about a lotof other things, but you can see
the sort of what I'm trying todo for them.
Doug Smith (48:10):
And just real quick how often do you do that with
players?
You mentioned freshmen, but isthat once a year?
Is that every month, every week?
Anson Dorrance (48:17):
These things take about an hour, sometimes an
hour and a half.
So I meet with them once a fall, once in January and once just
before they leave to go home inthe summer.
So three times a year.
And then I've got a staffmember sitting in the player
conference with me and thisguy's taking notes down.
Then they get a very elaborategoal setting letter.
(48:40):
That's a follow up to this goalsetting meeting, because then
at the end of it we're doinggoal setting.
So what are your three greateststrengths?
What three things do you needto work on?
And then we talk about wherethey can lead, because we want
everyone on the team to be somekind of leader and it's just a
(49:00):
very in-depth, basicallyperformance review, if you will.
But, by the way, what's reallygood about the way this is
structured is I'm always tellingthem there's another level in
them and I'm also always tellingthem what they can do to change
their place.
So, assuming they're notstarting a part of the
(49:21):
conversation is right.
Here's how you start, becausethey're all interested in that
information.
Here's how you make the travelteam.
Here's how you get rotated intoeach game and the biggest
issues most kids have coming inthat are elite players coming in
, because every kid we recruitis an elite player.
But even a lot of the eliteplayers don't head, don't defend
, and so they realize that Iexpect them to be complete as
(49:45):
fast as possible, as certainlyif they want to play.
Doug Smith (49:49):
Yeah, oh, and so we're out of time.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned,I can go for hours.
Hopefully we can do this again.
I have so many more questions,but thank you for all the lives
that you've changed through yourleadership.
I know you've impacted theworld in a great way, and a lot
of women's lives specifically.
So thank you again andhopefully we'll do it again.
Anson Dorrance (50:05):
I certainly have no issue doing it again with
you, and I thoroughly enjoyedthe conversation, so good luck
to you.
Doug Smith (50:12):
Hey, thank you Take care.
Well, leader, thank you so muchfor listening to my conversation
with Anson.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at L3leadershiporg, slash
394.
And, as always, leader, I wantto challenge you that if you
want to attend extra growth thisyear, next year, then you need
to either launch or join an L3leadership mastermind group.
(50:32):
Mastermind groups are simplygroups of six to 12 leaders that
meet together on a consistentbasis for at least one year in
order to help each other grow,hold each other accountable and
to do life together.
For me personally, mastermindgroups have been the greatest
source of growth in my life overthe last eight years, and I
truly do believe that everyperson needs to be in a
mastermind group.
So if you're interested inlearning more about launching or
(50:52):
joining a group, go toL3leadershiporg slash
masterminds or email me atdugsmith at L3leadershiporg.
And, as always, I like to endevery episode of the quote, and
today I will quote AnsonDurrance himself, and he said
this.
He said competition is key todeveloping players.
The only practice environmentin which you truly develop a
player is a competitive arenaand I love that.
(51:15):
I just love, love, love thisinterview.
I hope you enjoyed as much as Idid.
Well, leader, know that Lauraand I, my wife Laura and I love
you.
We believe in you and I say itevery episode.
But don't quit, keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
I'll talk to you next episode.
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