Episode Summary: In this episode of the L3 Leadership podcast, Derwin Gray joins the podcast to talk about his football career, faith, and shares his thoughts on the racial divide and what he thinks it’ll take to heal it.
About Derwin Gray: After graduating from Brigham Young University, Derwin played professional football in the NFL for five years with the Indianapolis Colts (1993-1997) and one year with the Carolina Panthers (1998). During that time, he and Vicki began their journey with Christ and experienced God’s faithfulness and direction as He moved their hearts to know Him and make Him known.
Derwin and Vicki began an itinerant speaking ministry in 1999, One Heart At A Time Ministries. Derwin went on to graduate magna cum laude from Southern Evangelical Seminary with a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree, with a concentration in Apologetics, where he was mentored by renowned theologian and philosopher, Dr. Norman Geisler.
Following God’s call on their lives and their desire to shepherd people towards transforming their world through the mission of Christ, the Lord transitioned Derwin from his primary role of itinerant speaker to serving as the Lead Pastor of Transformation Church in January of 2010. Coupling his dynamic speaking style with a shepherd’s heart, his intense passion for seeing lives and culture transformed is both contagious and inspiring.
Key Takeaways:
1. Derwin talks about how he transitioned from being an NFL player to becoming a pastor.
2. He talks about the relationship between modern-day politics and religion in the US.
3. He speaks to white leaders looking to diversify their churches.
4. If you’re not developing your character, you’re not going to have longevity as a leader.
Quotes From the Episode:
“If you’re filtering your faith through Republican politics or Democratic politics, that is idolatry.”
“Only a theological cure can heal a theological problem.”
“Why don’t white people go to minority lead churches?”
“Leadership is the development of your character.”
“Do not compare, bigger is not better, better is better.”
Resources Mentioned:
How to Heal Our Racial Divide by Dr. Derwin Gray
The Good Life by Dr. Derwin Gray
Multiethnic Church Roundtable
Building a Multiethnic Church by Dr. Derwin Gray
Transformation Church
Conformed to His Image by Kenneth Boa
Connect with Derwin:
Website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L three Leadership Podcast,where we are obsessed with
helping you grow to yourmaximum potential and to
maximize the impact of yourleadership. My name is Doug
Smith, and I am your host, andtoday's episode is brought to
you by my friends at BarongAdvisors . We're also recording
live from the new return.comstudio. If you're new to the
podcast, welcome. I'm so gladthat you're here, and I hope
(00:28):
that you'll enjoy our contentand become a subscriber. Know
that you can also watch all ofour episodes over on our
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That really does help us togrow our audience and reach
more leaders. So thank you inadvance for that. Well Leader.
(00:50):
In today's episode, you'regonna hear my conversation with
Pastor Gerwin Gray . If you'reunfamiliar with Durwin, let me
just tell you a little bitabout him . Pastor Jerwin Gray
is the founding and lead pastorof Transformation Church, a
multi-ethnic,multi-generational church near
Charlotte, North Carolina.
Transformation Church has beenrecognized as one of the
fastest growing churches in theUnited States. Pastor Jerwin
has been married to his wife,Vicki , for almost 30 years,
(01:12):
and has two adult children. Heplayed in the NFL for six years
with the Indianapolis Col ,Carolina Panthers. He's also
the author of several books,including Limitless Life, the
High Definition Leader, theGood Life, what Jesus Teaches
About Finding True Happiness.
God, do You Hear Me? And How toHear our racial divide. And in
our conversation, Teddy ,you're gonna hear Derwin talk
(01:34):
about how we can heal ourracial divide. You'll hear him
talk about how pastors canbuild multi-ethnic churches,
how to deal with politicalidolatry and so much more.
You're gonna love thisconversation. But before we
dive into that, just a fewannouncements. This episode of
the L three Leadership Podcastis sponsored by Barong
Advisors. The financialadvisors at Barung Advisors
help educate and empowerclients to make informed
(01:55):
financial decisions. You canfind out how Barung Advisors
can help you develop acustomized financial plan for
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That's B E R A T U N Gadvisors.com. Securities and
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Financial member of FINRA and SI P C , barong Advisors, L P L
(02:16):
Financial and L threeLeadership are separate
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And I also wanna thank our newsponsor, return.com and leader.
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circular if you're interestedin investing. And with all that
being said, here's myconversation with Pastor Durwin
Gray . Durwin Gray , welcome tothe L three Leadership podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis for a long time. And
really just wanna start withyou just giving a little bit
about your background. Youspent six years in the NFL and
now you're pastoring , uh, anamazing church. And can you
(03:21):
kind of give people a briefsummary of that journey in your
life?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, thank you so much, first and foremost for ,
uh, for having me. So I like tosay I am a , uh, I don't know
how I became a pastor,actually, , um, you
know, it's, it , it it's one ofthese things where, where God
really sets you up. So I didn'tgrow up in a church background.
I didn't know what a pastorwas. I didn't , I didn't, I
(03:45):
didn't know what a church was.
Uh, so growing up, like therewas this kind of like god
awareness, but we didn't go tochurch. We didn't pray toge
together, none of those typesof things. And so pretty much
football was, my God, I mean, Iwouldn't have been able to say
that, but a God is anythingthat you find affirmation,
identity, significance, andpurpose in. Hmm . And so that's
(04:07):
what football did for me. Soeventually end up getting a
football scholarship to , um,to Brigham Young. So you got a
black kid from a multiethnicenvironment going to B Y U ,
which is a Mormon,predominantly white school. And
so I find myself there firstsemester, take some
adjustments, second ESsemester, meet girl in a track
(04:28):
team, and , uh, man, that was34 years ago and we've been
married for, for 31 years. Wow.
Come on. And , uh, ended it ,ended up having a legendary ,
uh, career there. Got draftedto the N nfl and still at that
time, worship and football wasserving me pretty, pretty good.
I was, I was really successful.
(04:48):
Uh , but when I got to the nfl, I went from being a big fish
in a small pond to being aminnow in the Pacific Ocean.
And that first year waschallenging. Second year was
better. Third year I was a , Iwas, I was a team captain. I
was contributing to the successof the team. Uh, but the end of
that third season, so I'm 25years old, and it's like, all
right , is this as good as lifeis gonna get? Wow. So you got
(05:12):
the girl, you got the money,you got the car, you got the
career, you've done some coolthings, but what you don't have
is forgiveness. What you don'thave is your father's love.
What you don't have isemotional security. Um, I was,
I was very insecure because Ibuilt, when you build your life
on what the Bible callsidolatry, which is a false God,
(05:34):
when you build your life on afalse God, what happens when
you can't do what it is toplease that God? So football
was my God, and my body inproduction was how I pleased
that God to keep my job. Whathappens when you recognize that
the NFL stands for not for long? Wow. So, so like,
(05:56):
what's one of the worst thingsin life? You're like, let's say
I played 10 years and I was 31years old. What do you, what do
you, what do you, what do youdo with the rest of your life?
Hmm . And so the existentialcrisis of, is this as good as
it gets? I need forgiveness.
I'm insecure. Uh , was onlyovercome when a teammate for
(06:17):
five years shared Christ withme. Uh, his nickname was the
naked preacher. His real namewas Steve Grant. And every day
after practice, man, he'd takea shower, dry off rap a towel
on his waist, and he'd shareChrist. And , uh,
that's awesome . Over a fiveyear timeframe of the life I
built on sand being washedaway, that's when the blood of
(06:38):
Christ washed me away. That,that , that , that there was
someone who loved meunconditionally. Someone who
would forgive me, someone whowould grace me, someone who had
mercy for me, someone that Icould belong to
unconditionally. And so I fellin love with Jesus. That was 19
97, 19 98, signed Afriancontract to play with the
(06:58):
Carolina Panthers in Charlotte.
I get injured. I only play inthree games and I'm on injured
reserve for the rest of theyear. Alls I can do is rehab my
knee and read the Bible. So inthat time, it's like God was
pulling a pacifier of footballout of my mouth and weaning me
off of finding my identity andsignificance and purpose from
(07:22):
football to finding it in him.
But still, I had no idea that Iwas gonna be a pastor. I grew
up as a compulsive stutterer.
Um , and so eventually in thefall of 99 , um, I re I re I
retired from the nfl and mywife and I were like, well,
what's next? Well, we didn'tknow, but I got invited to
(07:43):
speak at a youth event. And Iargued with God and I cried to
God and said, why would yousend me? I'm a stutterer? And I
just, since God said, if I canraise my son from the dead, I
can raise your tongue to talk.
Wow . You have to go to see ithappen. Faith, like love is an
action. So we went to thislittle old event and a bunch of
kids came to faith and peoplestarted calling me to speak.
(08:06):
And , uh, my passion for Jesus,for lost p people in the church
began to grow, started amaster's program in divinity.
Um, eventually got a doctoratein New Testament, and we
planted transformation churchFebruary , uh, February 7th,
2010. And God has blessed usimmensely. Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Uh, question outta curiosity. Your , your wife,
you guys met, you know, beforeyou got led to the Lord. Was ,
was she a believer the wholetime and just hoping that you
would get ahold of God or didshe come to Christ with you?
What did that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah , she was , uh, she was more lost in me, man.
. Yeah. Yeah. Um ,neither, neither, neither one
of us had a clue of the , of,of the gospel. And when I say
the gospel, I mean, none of ushad the , had a clue of the
good news of Jesus and what heaccomplished and what that
meant and his love for us. Soshe actually came to faith
(09:01):
about six months or so before Idid. Hmm . And so we were
pretty much on a similartrajectory. And both of us came
to faith through our friends atwork. There was a woman at work
who shared the gospel with her.
And then my teammate , SteveGrant, the naked preacher,
shared the gospel with me. Andso we're very big into every
(09:23):
follower of Jesus is amissionary, and your mission
field is where your feet are.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
That's so good. I wanted to talk to you just
about that. So this is actuallyfunny. So , uh, I've known who
you are obviously and followedyou, but for somehow there was
a disconnect. Like I did notknow you were the evangelism
linebacker , uh, . So,so when I was researching, I
saw , because I remember thatvideo, I don't know when that
came out. Uh , and if, ifyou're listening to this or
watching this right now, and ifnot seeing this just YouTube
(09:48):
evangelism linebacker, andyou'll see Derwin . But
, um, one just on that video,is that, is that when you
arrived in life when that wentout? Or do , do you regret
being that now that you're theevangelist?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Absolutely not. Come on . Absolutely not. I , um, I
remember back in 2004 , um, Igot a phone call from a college
student from the university ,uh, it was , uh, Montana State
in Bozeman. And they said, Hey,for Campus Crusade, we wanna
develop this character for somevi videos we wanna do called
the Evangelism linebacker. It'sbased off of Terry Tate, the
(10:21):
office linebacker. And I waslike, well, what do I, what do
I gotta do? He goes, you get totackle p people who don't
evangelize. I'm like, lemme getthis . Right . I get to tackle
people and I don't go to jailfor it. , Nope. Let's
do it. So , uh, we filmed thatin 2004 and still to this day,
people love that thing. And ,um, even though it's meant to
(10:44):
be slapstick and humorous,there is a sense of importance
and urgency to , to it. What'sinteresting, Doug, is nearly
half of millennials think it'smi nearly half of millennial
Christians say it's wrong toevangelize. Hmm . That's a
recent study from Barna . Sothere's a huge disconnect
(11:08):
because the Jesus of the Biblecommanded that we evangelize,
commanded that we share ourfaith. And so , um, I think
we're gonna have a resurrectionof the evangelism linebacker,
cuz I'm actually getting readyto write a book with Naf Pet
NAF Press on the topic ofevangelism.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Wow . Well , I do wanna touch base on this. So,
you know, you're a pastor, youget the opportunity every week
from a pulpit to get to shareChrist with people. Uh, that's
not the majority of people,right. And so , uh, there's a
lot of people they wanna make adifference. I'm curious whether
it was, you know, the nakedpreacher, what is it the people
who don't have a platform likeyou have can do in everyday
life? What was so attractiveoutside of maybe his body about
(11:50):
the, the naked preacher thatreally ministered you and
enabled you to do Christ? Andhow can people connect the dots
there and , and do that intheir own life?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah. So what I would say, number one is if the
only time I'm sharing Jesus iswhen I preach on Sunday, then
I'm a fraud. Oof . And so I ,um, I share often about where
my Jacob's well is in Johnchapter four, Jesus talks about
Jacob's, well, where he meetsthe woman at the well. And he
(12:17):
shares that he's the livingwater with her. So I have
several coffee shops that aremy Jacob's. Well, and so what I
do as I'm walking into thecoffee shop, I pray , um, Lord,
will you open up an opportunityfor me to share the gospel with
someone that does not knowChrist? And so that's not just
for Sunday, like I actuallythink people who are not
(12:41):
pastors have a greaterinfluence to affect lost
people. Because lost peopleoften don't come into a church
until they have a relationshipwith someone who's a part of
the church. And so that's whywe tell our congregation that
we're all missionaries. All ofus are on mission. And so the
(13:02):
desire to share your faithflows out of the satisfaction
you have in Christ. The greateryou're satisfied in Christ, the
greater you're gonna wanteverybody to be satisfied in
Christ. Like my hope and myprayer is, I hope one day
Christians are evangelistic theway Michael Jordan fans are
(13:22):
concerning him being betterthan LeBron James. I mean, they
will give you every statisticin every category. And you go,
well, quote to me secondCorinthians 5, 4 14 , uh, well
hold on a second. You know allthese stats about Michael
Jordan and how he's better thanLeBron James and you're trying
to evangelize me to convert meto believe in Michael Jordan,
(13:44):
but yet you don't knowscriptures to convert people to
come to Jesus Christ who hungon the cross. And so our
affections are just all outtawhack. You know, it's, it's ,
it's not like Michael Jordan'sgoing to give you money, but
yet Jesus is gonna give yousalvation. Jesus is gonna give
you the Holy Spirit. Jesus isgonna give you mercy. Jesus is
(14:06):
gonna give you kindness. Likewe have so many Christians who
are addicted and attracted tothe wrong things.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah. I want I want to talk about that And just
real quick, cuz I know thebook's not out yet, but I
think, is it called Sent orSend ? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Uh, so right now the working title is sent s e n t.
And that's a , that's really inthe gospel of John Jesus says,
multiple times the Father sentme. And so in essence, because
we're the body of Christ, howis Jesus gonna be sent to our
neighbors if he's seated at theright hand of the Father right
(14:41):
now? Well, it's through us, hispeople. He is sending us on
mission. And, and I'll just saythis, we have to move
evangelism from sounding like aused car salesman to an orphan
who's been adopted by a goodfather. And you're inviting
other orphans into the house tohave dinner to meet your dad.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That is so good. Um, we'll look forward to it and
we'll share that when the thebook comes out. You've, you've
mentioned idolatry a few times.
You talked about , uh, footballis an idol in your life mm-hmm.
and people justmaking idols outta the wrong
things . I heard a message youdid recently on , um, politics
in the church. It was called ,uh, turn from Political
Idolatry to Kingdom Politics.
And clearly we , we live in anation where politics is an
(15:26):
idol for people. And I'm justcurious , um, can you talk
about your view of makingpolitics an idol and the
culture which , which we live ?
Cause I thought it was such atimely message and we'll put a
link to that in the show notesas well so people can listen.
But I just want you tochallenge leaders.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, yeah. Let , let , let me, let me give us
something to think about. TheChurch of Jesus Christ is 2000
years old. American politics intheir current iteration is
maybe 60 years old because theDemocrats and Republicans
switched allegiances during theCivil Rights movement. A lot of
(16:03):
times people will say theRepublicans are the ones who
freed the slaves. Well, it'scuz they were considered
liberals back then. So the, theSouthern Democrats were the
conservatives and then theyswitched. But here's my point.
The church has been around for2000 years. Politics in America
the way it is right now, let'sjust say 300 years, even though
(16:26):
it's not for the overwhelmingmajority of the Christian
faith, like over 99.9% ofChristians have never been a
Republican. Wow . And havenever been a Democrat. So if
you are filtering your faiththrough Republican politics or
(16:46):
democratic politics, that isidolatry. Also. 99.999% of all
Christians who've ever existedaround the world have never
been Christian. Most Christiansaround the world are not
Republican or Democrat. I wasrecently in Norway with my
wife. They have 11 politicalparties. They think American
(17:12):
Christians have lost theirabsolute minds the way we
filter everything. We read theBible through political lenses
instead of reading the Bibleand implementing the Kingdom of
God. And so it's very logicaland very reasonable that you
could have Christians who say,I'm not pro L G B T Q, I love
(17:36):
PE people , but I don't affirmthat I'm not pro-abortion.
However, I vote Democratbecause of this, this, and
this. And you can have peoplewho go, you know what? I don't
agree with President Trump'srhetoric and his , uh, immature
attitude, but man, he done somereally good things. Boom, boom,
boom. And as followers ofChrist, we should be able to
(17:57):
go, man, vote your conscious .
But instead, what we've done inAmerica, families have broken
apart , um, churches havebroken apart based on who you
vote for. Um, and I'm, I'm oldenough to remember Doug, when a
man by the name of Donald J.
(18:17):
Trump said, we're gonna dooperation warp speed, and we're
gonna create a vaccine forCovid . Like, he was the one
who said, we're gonna do avaccine for Covid. And then
people who followed him werelike, yay . I , no , you know,
and, and then like I'm oldenough to remember when the
Republican Party was aboutfamily values, was about
(18:40):
financial responsibility. Iremember all those things. And
next thing I know, it's turnedinto a populous movement of
like street brawlers where thepresident's son says, if we
follow Jesus advice to turn theother cheek , we wouldn't be in
power. And I just, I , and so Ithink what we have to do as the
(19:03):
church is we have to , um,implement the kingdom of God
and understand common grace andchallenge the cultural idols.
So when I speak to Christiansin Norway, they go, pastor,
help me understand why you notwant free healthcare for
(19:23):
everyone. Like they think it'sutterly asinine that we as
Christians would not want freehealthcare . And of course it's
not free, it comes outta yourtaxes. They go, why aren't you
guys willing to do that? Isaid, I am. Like, like I I
think that would be awesomethat that, you know, but my
(19:45):
point is, there's someChristians who think promoting
free healthcare is like of thedevil. And then since I'm here,
why is it that when PresidentBiden said, we're gonna forgive
$10,000 in college debt forstudents? Oh, that's socialism.
(20:05):
But when the government does PP P loans, it's not. So I think
political idolatry is veryblinding. It's very ugly. And
then what it's doing lastly isgeneration Z and younger
millennials are going, I wantnothing to do with that.
Hypocrisy.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
You, you talked about in the message you
mentioned it can be blinding. Ialso think just people have
blind spots. You know, there'sprobably people listening to
this saying, well , likepolitics is an idol to me,
, what are, what aresome signs and , and ways that
people can tell that they mayhave made politics and idle in
their life?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
The only person who's not blind is Jesus. So I
wanna , I want to be aware ofpotential blind spots that I
have. So that's number one.
Number two, person wins. Youalmost have like this salvific
joy. Uh, I remember whenPresident Trump won, and uh,
there were some older white menin a coffee shop that I know,
(21:02):
man, I had never seen those menso happy in their lives. And
then, and then when PresidentBiden won, I saw 'em again and
they were just so depressed. Imean, they were just so
depressed. And I'm going, guys,wait a second. Like, why are
you so Well, America's goingdown the tubes now. And it's
(21:25):
like, wait a minute, hold on.
Hold , hold on. Are you nothappy that unemployment is at
like 3.2% ? Like, do you knowhow low the Yeah. And it's
like, hold on, hold on. You'reputting your hope in the wrong
thing. Now, in saying this, Ivote, I vote number one because
I'm an American citizen andit's my right number. Number
(21:46):
two, I vote because there's ahistory in our nation where
black Americans were deniedtheir constitutional right to
be able to vote. We werelynched, our church were
bombed. Uh, um, we were, wewere, we, we had dogs unleashed
upon us. So I vote, but Irecognize that that's not my
supremacy of my action in thekingdom of God. I've gone to
(22:10):
Washington DC to advocate and land and advocate for
immigration reform. If peoplesaw what it took for
immigration to take place, youwould be blown away. It's
designed for people not to beable to come into our NA
nation, but we need strongborders. Like border strength
(22:30):
is important. It doesn't haveto be an either or . Like I can
care about life in a womb and amigrant child's ability while
at the same time saying they'resystemic injustice. It doesn't
have to be one camp or theother. The kingdom of God is
outrageously beautiful andglorious and perplexing to
(22:53):
political idol ideologies .
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I thought this message was so, so profound.
Um, I know there's a lot ofpastors that listen to this and
you know, pastors have had areally tough couple of years.
Uh, do you have any advice cuzthe , the pastors that I talk
to, you know, they're like, nomatter what I say, it's never
enough. And no matter what Isay, it's always too much. Do
you have any, any thoughts whenit comes to pastors on
addressing politics in thechurch?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so what I would say iswhenever you address political
idolatry as a hobby and not aholy habit, it's gonna come off
wrong. And here's what I mean.
Um, the things I've been sayingat Transformation Church during
this crazy time is what I wassaying when it wasn't crazy. So
(23:40):
our church actually grewtremendously through all of
this chaos because I didn't sayanything that hadn't been said
before. Way before GeorgeFloyd, I had been brokering
conversations between thepolice and the church and the
African American community. Cuzas a black man, I've always
(24:03):
known once again, it doesn'thave to be a either or it can
be a both. And, and so when youtalk about these topics as a
hobby, what you catch the fishwith is what you keep the fish
with. And so what a lot of mywhite pastor friends did when
George Floyd was murdered isthey immediately went to , uh,
(24:23):
George Floyd racism. And a lotof their white congregants were
like, wait a hold on, wait,wait dude, what do you, what do
you, what do you like gettingwoke? Like, what are you
saying? Like, what are youdoing? And a part of it is
like, this shouldn't haverespectfully what happened to
George Floyd is not the tip ofthe iceberg for racism and
(24:45):
systemic injustice in America.
It's not even close. It's noteven , uh, a man tragically
lost his life, but that's noteven close to what's causing so
much of the racial , uh, uh,uh, am amne between people. And
(25:07):
, and so, but what a lot of mywhite pastors did , friends
did, it was such a hobby thatwhen they got into Stewart , it
wasn't a habit for theirchurch. And I had friends le
lose thousands of people,millions of dollars. Um, and so
what I would say is make sureyou're steadily feeding people
(25:27):
a well-balanced meal . So whenthis comes up, it , it won't,
it won't, it won't be a thing.
A a pastor friend of mine, he'spastors church for 30 years,
multi-site church, cutting edge, um, predominantly a white
church. And we were talking, hegoes, pastor, he goes, my heart
is broken. He's like, these arepeople, I married them. I
(25:50):
married their children, Iburied their dead. They've said
they love the church and Ispeak out against racism and
they leave the church andthey're calling me woke. And
they're calling me a liliberal, like, like, what did I
do wrong? And so the firstthing is always compassion. And
he said, you know, pastor, I'm,I'm really, really sorry that
(26:11):
you've experienced this. And II said, what I think happened
was because you hadn't beenteaching this year after year
after year after year, theywere used to a diet and their
spiritual appetite rejected it.
And they believe their latenight cable more than they
believe you. And so that's whyI'm like, listen man, I'm,
(26:37):
we've, we have bigger churchesthan we've ever had. More
multi-site churches than we'veever had, but yet we have more
conspiracy theories in a churchthan we've ever had racial
division in a church than we'veever had. So like, what exactly
are we doing? Like being like,like, like what exactly are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Uh , I wanna hit on that. Your, your latest book is
actually called How to Heal OurRacial Divide. Um, now that
we're on this topic, and, andI'll just leave this really ,
really open-ended, you know,why, why did you write this
and, and what can leaders getout of it?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
You know what Doug, the reason why I wrote the book
is because I seen the churchjust being to just being torn
apart. So , uh, it came out in, um, 2022. Um, but man, I seen
the seeds of it right afterPresident Trump. Things that I
normally would say from thepulpit, that was straight
(27:33):
Bible, there would be pushbackand it would echo certain
things that many people in thepolitical idol can't would say.
And I said, man, I have towrite a resource number one,
that is biblical number two,that is theological number
three, that is gospel centered. Number four, that it's
culturally aware. And thennumber five, here are practices
(27:54):
that you can actually do.
Because what I seen was a lotof my white pastor friends were
like, pastor, you're , you're ,you're , you're , you're right.
We need to change this. This iswrong. But they would go read
sociological books. Theywouldn't read theological
books. I don't have a problemwith sociological books, but
(28:15):
sociology cannot heal atheological problem. Only a
theological cure can heal atheological problem. And so
Jesus was left on thesidelines. In this discussion ,
everybody's talking aboutcritical race theory, they're
talking about this theory, andI'm like , all right guys, can
(28:36):
we just go back to Bible 1 0 1,Genesis 12 , God tells Abraham,
I'm going to give you a familythat's made up of all the
families of the earth throughAbraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The
nation of Israel comes thenation of Israel. Disobeyed
Jesus is the seed of Abraham.
(28:58):
And so Jesus lives a perfectlife, dies on the cross in a
place of humanity, raisesagain. He not only forgives our
families, reconciled to God,reconciled to each other,
living in the power of the HolySpirit, embodying the kingdom
of God on earth. Our unityshows the Father sent the son
our love displays that we'redisciples of Christ. Easy
peasy. Simple. I mean,literally that's like literally
(29:22):
first century Bible 1 0 1. Butwhat do we do? We've turned
Jesus into a self-help coachand five ways to heal your
stress. Four ways to get yourdream, and da da da da da .
Like, let's, if, if we justteach the Bible story, it's
there . Like case in point,Jesus, a Jew goes to Samaria to
(29:47):
meet a Samaritan woman. TheSamaritan and Jews were in a
ethnic feud for 700 yearsbecause in 7 22 BC the northern
trend tribes are taken in theBabylonian captivity . Out of
that becomes the um, um,Samaritans, Jesus meets the
Samaritan woman, he's theliving water. Her life is
(30:07):
transformed. But here's whatit's important for us to
understand. What is aSamaritan, a Jew and a Gentile
in one body? What's the churchsupposed to be? A Jew and a
Gentile in one body? What was aSamaritan woman? A woman.
What's the church? A bride inthat message is ethnic
(30:27):
reconciliation through theliving water.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So good. So talk to, talk to leaders listening to
this now. How can we be part ofthe solution when it comes to
ra healing our racial divide inour country, in our everyday
life?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Well, something that Rick Warren told me, which is
so true, the greatest season ispreparation for the season. And
so what I mean by that isbefore you try to go and change
the world, let it let, let themessage change you. What I
would say is leaders get mybook, how to Heal our Racial
(31:01):
Divide By 10 of them . Read 'emwith the most influential
people in your church and thenstart doing small groups. Start
doing sermons on it. And itstarts as a mustard seed and it
spreads. But so often , um,there are people who go into a
battle and they're notprepared. Um, respectfully,
(31:25):
what a lot of my white pastorfriends do is they go, man,
we're gonna be a diversechurch. You know what we're
gonna do? We're gonna hire someblack musicians and we're gonna
invite some of our blackfriends. See we're a black
church or , or we're amulti-ethnic church. No, you're
not your bowl of vanilla icecream with a few caramel and
chocolate chips in it. One ofthe ways that, you know, if
(31:48):
you're a multi-ethnic churchwho shapes with authority
through preaching and leadingthe action of the church, and
that's not about affirmativeaction, that's affirming the
right action. Here's anotherthing. A lot of white brothers
and sisters will say, well, wewant the church to be
(32:09):
multiethnic, but minoritiesdon't come. My question is, why
don't white people go tominority led churches? I
actually had a conversationwith a gen gen gentleman and I
said that to him cuz he islike, well, why won't black
people come to our church? AndI said, well, why don't you go
to a black church? And helooked at me like I had 12
heads. Like, that's not even athought. Through the
(32:30):
multi-ethnic church round tablethat we've done for eight years
now, we've trained over 600leaders in gospel centered ,
multi-ethnic missional church.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah. And so you , you also wrote a book on this
subject, how to build amulti-ethnic church. And as you
said, you do these roundtables, and again, we'll
include links. If you're apastor listening to this , uh,
who's interested in attending,we'll put a links to that. But
what are some practical things?
You have a multi-ethnic church.
What are some practical thingsthat you've done that has
enabled you to be multiethnic?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yep . Yep . And so , uh, I'm gonna , I'm gonna be a
tad bit snarky here, please. Soplease bear with me. Theo
Theology's always practical.
Yeah. Theology's meant to bepracticed. So as a result of
our theological convictions,the first thing is how we
understand the gospel shapes,how we communicate the gospel,
(33:21):
the churches we get is becauseof the gospel we preach. The
gospel we preach is thechurches that we get. And so we
believe Jesus not only forgivessins, but he creates a family
with different colored skins.
Jesus declares us righteous,therefore we see each other
clothing the righteous of ofChrist. Um, our leadership team
is ethnically div diverse. Ourmusic team is ethnically div
(33:44):
diverse. Um, we, we, we do notuse language like we're going
to help the poor. No. The poorcan teach us about what it
means to walk with Christ.
We're partnering with the poor.
Um, and, and so, you know,we've, we at the end of the day
(34:04):
treat everybody like Jesus diedfor them because he did
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So good. Um, anything else you wanna say on
that subject before Itransition Another way?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay . What you got?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, I , i just talking about leadership, you
know, I know the leadershipcomes with immense weight.
There's painful seasons. I'mjust curious, I love asking
leaders, how do you deal withthe pain and pressure that
comes with, with leading achurch for any large
organization?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah. Well, early on, not very well early
on , um, not very well at all.
Um, over the, over the years,I've learned to center myself
on this rollercoaster byremembering Jesus can do so
(34:52):
much more than I can ever do.
Also, what I think is a bigdeal today, if I look back a
year later, I see that it's notso keep your head when
everybody else is losingtheirs. Remember who is
sovereign. And Al also, thegreatest thing that I can do is
(35:14):
to be prepared as best that Ias I can be. But I have to be
through the Holy Spirit'spower, a none anxious presence.
If I'm anxious, so is the team.
If I freak out, so is the team.
I have to model self-control,which comes from the power of
the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Hmm . I've, I've heard you talk about you love
to fish, right? Is that yourhobby ? One of your hobbies?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's my main hobby, my man
Speaker 1 (35:44):
. What role
have hobbies and, and even the
Sabbath played in your life inresting and and was that hard
for you to learn? Or is thatsomething that just came
natural?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
No, it was , uh, it was very hard for me to learn.
It was very hard for me tolearn because you really think
you're more important than youare. And one of the ways that I
keep my self importance at bayis, I'll often say from the
pulpit, or I'll say in meetingsor even say to myself, is I'll
say, listen, in eternity, theFather, son and Holy Spirit,
(36:15):
were not going, oh my gosh, Icannot wait until April 9th,
1971 because at Robert B. GreenHospital in San Antonio, Texas,
Durwin Gray's gonna be born inWoohoo is gonna be awesome.
Like, like I'm really not thatimportant. Like, like, like
(36:36):
Jesus is the big deal. And soby taking a day of rest, what
I'm saying is, one Lord, Itrust you to complete what you
have called me to complete.
Number two, the Sabbath is nota day of being bored. It's a
day of delight. It's a day ofrecharging. It's a day of
creative imagination. And sofor me, fishing has always
(36:59):
played an important role in mylife. It reminds me of me and
my grandmother. Uh , years agoI was in a pastoral care class
and the professor teachingsaid, draw a picture of your
happiest childhood memory. Andmost people think, well, as an
NFL player, you're gonna drawone of you playing football.
And instinctively what I drewwas me and my grandmother
(37:23):
fishing under a tree.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Hmm .
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And my grandmother , uh, she really protected me and
took care of me. My , uh, momwas 17 when I was born. My dad
was 19. And , uh, you know,there was some substance abuse
issues. There were some mentalhealth issues mm-hmm .
and mygrandmother really protected me
and really shielded me. It wasa really chaotic environment.
(37:49):
Um, matter of fact, when I wasabout 42, 42 through about 45,
so this is seven years ago,there was a season where , um,
I was angry at how I wasraised. When I looked at the
dysfunction, when I looked atthe toxic , um, there's a
reason why physical health andmental health is not as good in
(38:11):
areas of, in , in , in contextof stress because cortisol and
adrenaline is always going andyour body had made for those
things. And so , um, I workedthrough that by God's grace to
say, man , they just did thebest that they could. But
fishing reminds me of the gooddays with my grand grandmother.
(38:31):
And so I pray, I sing. I don't,I don't, I don't even have to
catch fish to have fun,.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Wow. Do you have a , do you have a favorite fishing
story or any, what's thebiggest fish you've caught?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
. Oh man.
That, that's unfair cause I gotlike a thousand. So , um, one
of my, one of my bucket listswas to fish in Spain. There's a
river in Spain called the Ebro. And the Ebro is known for a
giant species of catfish calledthe wells. And so I finally got
(39:04):
to go, we helped plant a churchin Madrid, Spain. So we went
and ministered to the pe pepeople there. And so we had a
day to ourselves . And so meand the pastor went to Fish
Toro with a guide, and we went, um, during a time when it was
hot , it was August and it justwasn't the best time. So they
(39:25):
said, you know , we may catch aFisher or two . So it was
pretty slow. And man, I hookedinto one and , uh, it was, it
was nearly five foot six tall.
Wow . And , uh, we estimatedprobably 110 pounds. And man, I
felt like a kid all over again.
It was great . And um,our fishing guide said,
(39:49):
congratulations, you caught asmall one.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Really? Yeah . Cause Oh
Speaker 2 (39:54):
My goodness. Cause typically they're probably
about a foot longer and about80 to 90 pounds heavier.
. So
Speaker 1 (40:02):
How long did it take you to reel end ?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Oh, like 25 minutes.
It was, it was ridiculous. Itwas, it was awesome . If you go
to my Instagram at Durwin lGray , um, you can actually see
the picture of the giantcatfish. And of course we, we
let it go. And so that, that ,that's my most recent fun
fishing trip.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Oh man. That's awesome. Um, we're talking to
leaders, talk to leaders aboutlongevity. You're certainly not
at your finish line , um, butyou've been in ministry for a
long time and , uh, I'm sureyou've seen being in ministry
world, so many leaders havefallen and and not finished
their course. What advice doyou have for leaders when it
comes to character developmentand, and keeping their call so
they can make it to theirfinish line?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
That is leadership.
Leadership is the developmentof your, of your, of your
character. Because if you'renot developing your character,
you're le le leading , you're afraud. And eventually that's
gonna be exposed. And so whathappens is the more gifted you
are, the more better lookingyou are. The more talented you
(41:05):
are, the longer you can getaway with being , uh, uh, not a
person of integrity. You cancover it up longer, but
eventually , uh, you'll befound out. And so what's scary
about 2023, Doug , is this isan era where it's easy not to
(41:27):
have integrity. Cuz you canjust go, well, that's not true.
It didn't happen, and just moveon. Wow. And people who have a
vested interest in your successwill follow along. It won't, it
won't be until you cut offtheir vested in interest that
their eyes will be open and go,oh wow, this person's a fraud.
So what I would say for me,number one is I define
(41:49):
leadership as not simplyinfluence, but I define
leadership as becoming what youwant others to be. Wow. And for
me, that flows out of the wordsof Jesus. So Jesus tells his
disciples, he says , um, youdon't Lord it over like the
(42:09):
Gentiles do. So he is speakingof the Romans. The Romans were
barbaric, the Romans wereoppressive. And he's saying, if
you really wanna be a leader,rap a towel around your waist.
And , um, I say this and I hopeit comes across the right way.
I see a lot of Christianleaders not wanting to wrap
(42:30):
towels around their waist , butturn their congregations into
fan clubs. Yep .
Speaker 1 (42:35):
How can, how can leaders guard themselves
against that? Because I thinknaturally, I mean, we do live
in a world where everyone wantsa following, they wanna build
their following. And, andagain, pride and ego can want
that. Is there any ways that wecan protect ourselves?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Proverbs 4 23,guard your heart, fors
the wellspring of of life. So,so the first thing is this.
It's, it's, it's, and let mejust talk to pastors here. And
I, and I know not everybody's apastor, but it, it translate,
this is for me, what is therefor Derwin ? Great . A boast
(43:12):
about the life in me that makesme born again is the Holy
Spirit, the gospel that savesme as belongs to Christ. The
glory belongs to the fa faFather, the word of God is
God's, the people belong toGod. The spiritual gifts I have
belong to Holy Spirit. What isthere for me to boast about?
What , what's, what's there tobe arrogant? What what have I
(43:34):
done? Nothing. Big deal. And sothat's number one. Number two,
when it says, guard your heart,be careful with
disappointments, because a lotof times we don't mourn our
(43:54):
disappointments and we allowthem to add up like an unpaid
bill. And what happens is, asthey add up like an unpaid
bill, bitterness begins tobuild up. When bitterness
builds up, there's thisentitlement that comes about,
well, my wife isn't doing this,so I'm entitled to this. Well,
(44:17):
I'm belief and, anddisappointment creates this
bitterness. So it's importantthat when there's
disappointment to go blessed ofpoor spirit or , or blessed of
those who mourn for they willbe comforted. Take those
disappointments to God. Go seea therapist, have other mature
pastors pour into you, speak toyour spouse about it. Do not
(44:38):
let a bitter root come up. Andthen thirdly, like, don't
compare. Do not compare. Biggeris not better. Better is
better.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
That's so good. And yeah, a few years ago, the fall
of 2020, I had a , I had what Icall a mental breakdown. It was
the result of a lot of things.
And basically what you justsaid, I had to go through a
process, went to therapy, abunch of things. And one thing
my, my therapist said to me,that was so good, he said, I've
had a lot of loss in my mylife. I lost my mom when I was
17. My sister died of a heroinoverdose, all these different
things. And, and I thought Ihad grieved those things. I'm
(45:12):
walking with God, you know,Hey, I have peace. Um , but my
therapist just said, Doug, youcan't, you can't say goodbye to
something you never said helloto. And he had me go to all the
grave sites and write lettersto everyone I've lost. And I
just realized I've never mourned a grief in my
entire life. And I can't tellyou how life changing that was.
And so just thank you forsharing that with leaders. I I
just wanna speak to the factthat I know that to be true.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah. Well, and thank you for being vulnerable
and sharing. American theologydoes not have space for Jesus'.
Theology that says , blessedare those who mourn for they
will be comforted. What'sinteresting, Doug, that word
blessed and Greek is the word.
And so we run away frommourning, which means we're
(45:57):
running away from happiness,which comes from the comforting
presence of God. God can'tcomfort that, which we don't
bring to him to comfort uswith.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
And this is huge.
And, and again, , we'rehitting on all of your books it
seems like, but you wrote abook called The Good Life . And
what I loved about it was itwas the exact opposite of what
you would think and youactually used to be attitudes
as the way to a happy life.
Anything else you wanna , wedon't have time to cover the
whole book, but anything youwanna share about that book
and, and more of that message?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Oh yeah. That, that, that was, that was the divine
paradox that if I can sum upthat book, is Jesus is like,
I'm gonna give you the keys tohappiness, but you've gotta
take them and unlock the doorand walk in. Mm-hmm .
happiness isabout becoming the person you
(46:46):
were created to be. Happy arethe peacemakers for they will
be called sons and daughters ofGod. Happy are the merciful for
they will see God. Happy arethe poor spirit for theirs as a
kingdom of he heaven. Jesus isactually saying, you truly can
be happy, but it's not the wayyou think. And it's a deeper,
(47:09):
richer happiness that your facecan be shedding tears, but your
soul can be smiling.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I love it. Well , uh, we're gonna dive into the
lightning room now, but uh, forthose listening we've mentioned
several of Erwin's books. Uh,we'll include links to all of
them, recommend all of themcheck out his sermons on his
church and , uh, lots ofresources out there for you.
Um, so with the time we haveleft, just a bunch of fun
questions I ask in everyinterview. The first one is,
what is the best advice you'veever received and who gave it
(47:36):
to you?
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Uh, the best advice that I have ever received was
from my late mentor Alan Bacon.
And , um, basically I wastelling him how tired I was
from going out and speaking andtraveling and sharing the
gospel when I came home. Iwanted to rest and it was my
wife's job, you know, to takecare of the kids and let me
(47:59):
rest. So I told him all thisstuff and the advice he gave me
is he said, son, if you goingout preaching a gospel makes
you too tired to love and serveyour wife and kids, then you
need to stop preaching a gospelbecause that is the gospel.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Woo . How'd that feel?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Uh, it sucked. But it was the best thing,
. It was what I needed to hear,and it guides my life and
ministry. Now,
Speaker 1 (48:21):
What are one or two books that have made a
significant impact on yourlife, either recently or all
time that you'd recommend?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Um, all time . The book that I would recommend is
Conformed to His Image by KenBoa .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well , pastor Derwin, this has been
phenomenal. Thank you so muchfor taking the time to invest
in me and everyone that willlisten to this and hopefully
we'll get to do it againsomeday .
Speaker 2 (48:42):
All right . Awesome.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Hey, leader, thank you so much for listening to my
conversation with PastorJerwin. I hope that you enjoyed
it as much as I did. You canfind ways to connect with him
in links to everything that wediscussed in the show
notes@lthreeleadership.orgslash 3 73 in Leader. I want to
challenge you that if you wanna10 x your growth this year,
then you need to either launchor join in L three Leadership
Mastermind Group. Mastermindgroups are groups of six or 12
(49:04):
leaders that meet together forat least one year in order to
help each other grow, hold eachother accountable and to do
life together. For mepersonally, mastermind groups
have been the greatest sourceof growth in my life over the
last eight years. If you'reinterested in learning more
about launching or joininggroup, go to L three
leadership.org/masterminds. Andas always, I like to end every
episode with a quote, and todayI'll quote Dave Ramsey who
(49:25):
said, success is just a pile ofall the mistakes you've made,
and you're standing on itrather than buried under it. So
good. Well, leader , I hopethis episode encourages you
know that my wife, Laura , andI love you. We believe in you
and I say it every episode, butdon't quit. Keep leading the
world desperately needs yourleadership. We'll talk to you
next episode.
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L three Leadership Podcast,where we are obsessed with
helping you grow to yourmaximum potential and to
maximize the impact of yourleadership. My name is Doug
Smith, and I am your host, andtoday's episode is brought to
you by my friends at BarongAdvisors . We're also recording
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(00:28):
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That really does help us togrow our audience and reach
more leaders. So thank you inadvance for that. Well Leader.
(00:50):
In today's episode, you'regonna hear my conversation with
Pastor Gerwin Gray . If you'reunfamiliar with Durwin, let me
just tell you a little bitabout him . Pastor Jerwin Gray
is the founding and lead pastorof Transformation Church, a
multi-ethnic,multi-generational church near
Charlotte, North Carolina.
Transformation Church has beenrecognized as one of the
fastest growing churches in theUnited States. Pastor Jerwin
has been married to his wife,Vicki , for almost 30 years,
(01:12):
and has two adult children. Heplayed in the NFL for six years
with the Indianapolis Col ,Carolina Panthers. He's also
the author of several books,including Limitless Life, the
High Definition Leader, theGood Life, what Jesus Teaches
About Finding True Happiness.
God, do You Hear Me? And How toHear our racial divide. And in
our conversation, Teddy ,you're gonna hear Derwin talk
(01:34):
about how we can heal ourracial divide. You'll hear him
talk about how pastors canbuild multi-ethnic churches,
how to deal with politicalidolatry and so much more.
You're gonna love thisconversation. But before we
dive into that, just a fewannouncements. This episode of
the L three Leadership Podcastis sponsored by Barong
Advisors. The financialadvisors at Barung Advisors
help educate and empowerclients to make informed
(01:55):
financial decisions. You canfind out how Barung Advisors
can help you develop acustomized financial plan for
your financial future byvisiting their
website@barungadvisors.com.
That's B E R A T U N Gadvisors.com. Securities and
investment products andservices offered through L P L
Financial member of FINRA and SI P C , barong Advisors, L P L
(02:16):
Financial and L threeLeadership are separate
entities. I also wanna thankour sponsor, Henny Jewelers,
Sarah Jeweler by my friend andmentor John Henny, and my wife
Laura . And I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henny Jewelers and hadan incredible experience. And
not only do they have a greatjewelry, but they also invest
in people. In fact, for everycouple that comes in engaged ,
they give them a book to helpthem prepare for marriage. And
we just love that. So if you'rein need of a good jeweler,
(02:39):
check out henny jewelers.com.
And I also wanna thank our newsponsor, return.com and leader.
Let me just ask you this. Haveyou ever had an interest in
investing in real estate? Well, now for as little as $500,
you can become a commercialreal estate investor. Just
visit return.com to learn more.
That's R E I T U R n.com .
Investing involves risk. Pleaseconsult a return offering
(03:01):
circular if you're interestedin investing. And with all that
being said, here's myconversation with Pastor Durwin
Gray . Durwin Gray , welcome tothe L three Leadership podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis for a long time. And
really just wanna start withyou just giving a little bit
about your background. Youspent six years in the NFL and
now you're pastoring , uh, anamazing church. And can you
(03:21):
kind of give people a briefsummary of that journey in your
life?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, thank you so much, first and foremost for ,
uh, for having me. So I like tosay I am a , uh, I don't know
how I became a pastor,actually,
know, it's, it , it it's one ofthese things where, where God
really sets you up. So I didn'tgrow up in a church background.
I didn't know what a pastorwas. I didn't , I didn't, I
(03:45):
didn't know what a church was.
Uh, so growing up, like therewas this kind of like god
awareness, but we didn't go tochurch. We didn't pray toge
together, none of those typesof things. And so pretty much
football was, my God, I mean, Iwouldn't have been able to say
that, but a God is anythingthat you find affirmation,
identity, significance, andpurpose in. Hmm . And so that's
(04:07):
what football did for me. Soeventually end up getting a
football scholarship to , um,to Brigham Young. So you got a
black kid from a multiethnicenvironment going to B Y U ,
which is a Mormon,predominantly white school. And
so I find myself there firstsemester, take some
adjustments, second ESsemester, meet girl in a track
(04:28):
team, and , uh, man, that was34 years ago and we've been
married for, for 31 years. Wow.
Come on. And , uh, ended it ,ended up having a legendary ,
uh, career there. Got draftedto the N nfl and still at that
time, worship and football wasserving me pretty, pretty good.
I was, I was really successful.
(04:48):
Uh , but when I got to the nfl, I went from being a big fish
in a small pond to being aminnow in the Pacific Ocean.
And that first year waschallenging. Second year was
better. Third year I was a , Iwas, I was a team captain. I
was contributing to the successof the team. Uh, but the end of
that third season, so I'm 25years old, and it's like, all
right , is this as good as lifeis gonna get? Wow. So you got
(05:12):
the girl, you got the money,you got the car, you got the
career, you've done some coolthings, but what you don't have
is forgiveness. What you don'thave is your father's love.
What you don't have isemotional security. Um, I was,
I was very insecure because Ibuilt, when you build your life
on what the Bible callsidolatry, which is a false God,
(05:34):
when you build your life on afalse God, what happens when
you can't do what it is toplease that God? So football
was my God, and my body inproduction was how I pleased
that God to keep my job. Whathappens when you recognize that
the NFL stands for not for long
(05:56):
what's one of the worst thingsin life? You're like, let's say
I played 10 years and I was 31years old. What do you, what do
you, what do you, what do youdo with the rest of your life?
Hmm . And so the existentialcrisis of, is this as good as
it gets? I need forgiveness.
I'm insecure. Uh , was onlyovercome when a teammate for
(06:17):
five years shared Christ withme. Uh, his nickname was the
naked preacher. His real namewas Steve Grant. And every day
after practice, man, he'd takea shower, dry off rap a towel
on his waist, and he'd shareChrist
that's awesome . Over a fiveyear timeframe of the life I
built on sand being washedaway, that's when the blood of
(06:38):
Christ washed me away. That,that , that , that there was
someone who loved meunconditionally. Someone who
would forgive me, someone whowould grace me, someone who had
mercy for me, someone that Icould belong to
unconditionally. And so I fellin love with Jesus. That was 19
97, 19 98, signed Afriancontract to play with the
(06:58):
Carolina Panthers in Charlotte.
I get injured. I only play inthree games and I'm on injured
reserve for the rest of theyear. Alls I can do is rehab my
knee and read the Bible. So inthat time, it's like God was
pulling a pacifier of footballout of my mouth and weaning me
off of finding my identity andsignificance and purpose from
(07:22):
football to finding it in him.
But still, I had no idea that Iwas gonna be a pastor. I grew
up as a compulsive stutterer.
Um , and so eventually in thefall of 99 , um, I re I re I
retired from the nfl and mywife and I were like, well,
what's next? Well, we didn'tknow, but I got invited to
(07:43):
speak at a youth event. And Iargued with God and I cried to
God and said, why would yousend me? I'm a stutterer? And I
just, since God said, if I canraise my son from the dead, I
can raise your tongue to talk.
Wow . You have to go to see ithappen. Faith, like love is an
action. So we went to thislittle old event and a bunch of
kids came to faith and peoplestarted calling me to speak.
(08:06):
And , uh, my passion for Jesus,for lost p people in the church
began to grow, started amaster's program in divinity.
Um, eventually got a doctoratein New Testament, and we
planted transformation churchFebruary , uh, February 7th,
2010. And God has blessed usimmensely. Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Uh, question outta curiosity. Your , your wife,
you guys met, you know, beforeyou got led to the Lord. Was ,
was she a believer the wholetime and just hoping that you
would get ahold of God or didshe come to Christ with you?
What did that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah , she was , uh, she was more lost in me, man.
of us had a clue of the , of,of the gospel. And when I say
the gospel, I mean, none of ushad the , had a clue of the
good news of Jesus and what heaccomplished and what that
meant and his love for us. Soshe actually came to faith
(09:01):
about six months or so before Idid. Hmm . And so we were
pretty much on a similartrajectory. And both of us came
to faith through our friends atwork. There was a woman at work
who shared the gospel with her.
And then my teammate , SteveGrant, the naked preacher,
shared the gospel with me. Andso we're very big into every
(09:23):
follower of Jesus is amissionary, and your mission
field is where your feet are.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
That's so good. I wanted to talk to you just
about that. So this is actuallyfunny. So , uh, I've known who
you are obviously and followedyou, but for somehow there was
a disconnect. Like I did notknow you were the evangelism
linebacker , uh,
saw , because I remember thatvideo, I don't know when that
came out. Uh , and if, ifyou're listening to this or
watching this right now, and ifnot seeing this just YouTube
(09:48):
evangelism linebacker, andyou'll see Derwin
, um, one just on that video,is that, is that when you
arrived in life when that wentout? Or do , do you regret
being that now that you're theevangelist?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Absolutely not. Come on . Absolutely not. I , um, I
remember back in 2004 , um, Igot a phone call from a college
student from the university ,uh, it was , uh, Montana State
in Bozeman. And they said, Hey,for Campus Crusade, we wanna
develop this character for somevi videos we wanna do called
the Evangelism linebacker. It'sbased off of Terry Tate, the
(10:21):
office linebacker. And I waslike, well, what do I, what do
I gotta do? He goes, you get totackle p people who don't
evangelize. I'm like, lemme getthis . Right . I get to tackle
people and I don't go to jailfor it.
do it. So , uh, we filmed thatin 2004 and still to this day,
people love that thing. And ,um, even though it's meant to
(10:44):
be slapstick and humorous,there is a sense of importance
and urgency to , to it. What'sinteresting, Doug, is nearly
half of millennials think it'smi nearly half of millennial
Christians say it's wrong toevangelize. Hmm . That's a
recent study from Barna . Sothere's a huge disconnect
(11:08):
because the Jesus of the Biblecommanded that we evangelize,
commanded that we share ourfaith. And so , um, I think
we're gonna have a resurrectionof the evangelism linebacker,
cuz I'm actually getting readyto write a book with Naf Pet
NAF Press on the topic ofevangelism.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Wow . Well , I do wanna touch base on this. So,
you know, you're a pastor, youget the opportunity every week
from a pulpit to get to shareChrist with people. Uh, that's
not the majority of people,right. And so , uh, there's a
lot of people they wanna make adifference. I'm curious whether
it was, you know, the nakedpreacher, what is it the people
who don't have a platform likeyou have can do in everyday
life? What was so attractiveoutside of maybe his body about
(11:50):
the, the naked preacher thatreally ministered you and
enabled you to do Christ? Andhow can people connect the dots
there and , and do that intheir own life?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah. So what I would say, number one is if the
only time I'm sharing Jesus iswhen I preach on Sunday, then
I'm a fraud. Oof . And so I ,um, I share often about where
my Jacob's well is in Johnchapter four, Jesus talks about
Jacob's, well, where he meetsthe woman at the well. And he
(12:17):
shares that he's the livingwater with her. So I have
several coffee shops that aremy Jacob's. Well, and so what I
do as I'm walking into thecoffee shop, I pray , um, Lord,
will you open up an opportunityfor me to share the gospel with
someone that does not knowChrist? And so that's not just
for Sunday, like I actuallythink people who are not
(12:41):
pastors have a greaterinfluence to affect lost
people. Because lost peopleoften don't come into a church
until they have a relationshipwith someone who's a part of
the church. And so that's whywe tell our congregation that
we're all missionaries. All ofus are on mission. And so the
(13:02):
desire to share your faithflows out of the satisfaction
you have in Christ. The greateryou're satisfied in Christ, the
greater you're gonna wanteverybody to be satisfied in
Christ. Like my hope and myprayer is, I hope one day
Christians are evangelistic theway Michael Jordan fans are
(13:22):
concerning him being betterthan LeBron James. I mean, they
will give you every statisticin every category. And you go,
well, quote to me secondCorinthians 5, 4 14 , uh, well
hold on a second. You know allthese stats about Michael
Jordan and how he's better thanLeBron James and you're trying
to evangelize me to convert meto believe in Michael Jordan,
(13:44):
but yet you don't knowscriptures to convert people to
come to Jesus Christ who hungon the cross. And so our
affections are just all outtawhack. You know, it's, it's ,
it's not like Michael Jordan'sgoing to give you money, but
yet Jesus is gonna give yousalvation. Jesus is gonna give
you the Holy Spirit. Jesus isgonna give you mercy. Jesus is
(14:06):
gonna give you kindness. Likewe have so many Christians who
are addicted and attracted tothe wrong things.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah. I want I want to talk about that And just
real quick, cuz I know thebook's not out yet, but I
think, is it called Sent orSend ? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Uh, so right now the working title is sent s e n t.
And that's a , that's really inthe gospel of John Jesus says,
multiple times the Father sentme. And so in essence, because
we're the body of Christ, howis Jesus gonna be sent to our
neighbors if he's seated at theright hand of the Father right
(14:41):
now? Well, it's through us, hispeople. He is sending us on
mission. And, and I'll just saythis, we have to move
evangelism from sounding like aused car salesman to an orphan
who's been adopted by a goodfather. And you're inviting
other orphans into the house tohave dinner to meet your dad.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That is so good. Um, we'll look forward to it and
we'll share that when the thebook comes out. You've, you've
mentioned idolatry a few times.
You talked about , uh, footballis an idol in your life mm-hmm.
things . I heard a message youdid recently on , um, politics
in the church. It was called ,uh, turn from Political
Idolatry to Kingdom Politics.
And clearly we , we live in anation where politics is an
(15:26):
idol for people. And I'm justcurious , um, can you talk
about your view of makingpolitics an idol and the
culture which , which we live ?
Cause I thought it was such atimely message and we'll put a
link to that in the show notesas well so people can listen.
But I just want you tochallenge leaders.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, yeah. Let , let , let me, let me give us
something to think about. TheChurch of Jesus Christ is 2000
years old. American politics intheir current iteration is
maybe 60 years old because theDemocrats and Republicans
switched allegiances during theCivil Rights movement. A lot of
(16:03):
times people will say theRepublicans are the ones who
freed the slaves. Well, it'scuz they were considered
liberals back then. So the, theSouthern Democrats were the
conservatives and then theyswitched. But here's my point.
The church has been around for2000 years. Politics in America
the way it is right now, let'sjust say 300 years, even though
(16:26):
it's not for the overwhelmingmajority of the Christian
faith, like over 99.9% ofChristians have never been a
Republican. Wow . And havenever been a Democrat. So if
you are filtering your faiththrough Republican politics or
(16:46):
democratic politics, that isidolatry. Also. 99.999% of all
Christians who've ever existedaround the world have never
been Christian. Most Christiansaround the world are not
Republican or Democrat. I wasrecently in Norway with my
wife. They have 11 politicalparties. They think American
(17:12):
Christians have lost theirabsolute minds the way we
filter everything. We read theBible through political lenses
instead of reading the Bibleand implementing the Kingdom of
God. And so it's very logicaland very reasonable that you
could have Christians who say,I'm not pro L G B T Q, I love
(17:36):
PE people , but I don't affirmthat I'm not pro-abortion.
However, I vote Democratbecause of this, this, and
this. And you can have peoplewho go, you know what? I don't
agree with President Trump'srhetoric and his , uh, immature
attitude, but man, he done somereally good things. Boom, boom,
boom. And as followers ofChrist, we should be able to
(17:57):
go, man, vote your conscious .
But instead, what we've done inAmerica, families have broken
apart , um, churches havebroken apart based on who you
vote for. Um, and I'm, I'm oldenough to remember Doug, when a
man by the name of Donald J.
(18:17):
Trump said, we're gonna dooperation warp speed, and we're
gonna create a vaccine forCovid . Like, he was the one
who said, we're gonna do avaccine for Covid. And then
people who followed him werelike, yay . I , no , you know,
and, and then like I'm oldenough to remember when the
Republican Party was aboutfamily values, was about
(18:40):
financial responsibility. Iremember all those things. And
next thing I know, it's turnedinto a populous movement of
like street brawlers where thepresident's son says, if we
follow Jesus advice to turn theother cheek , we wouldn't be in
power. And I just, I , and so Ithink what we have to do as the
(19:03):
church is we have to , um,implement the kingdom of God
and understand common grace andchallenge the cultural idols.
So when I speak to Christiansin Norway, they go, pastor,
help me understand why you notwant free healthcare for
(19:23):
everyone. Like they think it'sutterly asinine that we as
Christians would not want freehealthcare . And of course it's
not free, it comes outta yourtaxes. They go, why aren't you
guys willing to do that? Isaid, I am. Like, like I I
think that would be awesomethat that, you know, but my
(19:45):
point is, there's someChristians who think promoting
free healthcare is like of thedevil. And then since I'm here,
why is it that when PresidentBiden said, we're gonna forgive
$10,000 in college debt forstudents? Oh, that's socialism.
(20:05):
But when the government does PP P loans, it's not. So I think
political idolatry is veryblinding. It's very ugly. And
then what it's doing lastly isgeneration Z and younger
millennials are going, I wantnothing to do with that.
Hypocrisy.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
You, you talked about in the message you
mentioned it can be blinding. Ialso think just people have
blind spots. You know, there'sprobably people listening to
this saying, well , likepolitics is an idol to me,
people can tell that they mayhave made politics and idle in
their life?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
The only person who's not blind is Jesus. So I
wanna , I want to be aware ofpotential blind spots that I
have. So that's number one.
Number two, person wins. Youalmost have like this salvific
joy. Uh, I remember whenPresident Trump won, and uh,
there were some older white menin a coffee shop that I know,
(21:02):
man, I had never seen those menso happy in their lives. And
then, and then when PresidentBiden won, I saw 'em again and
they were just so depressed. Imean, they were just so
depressed. And I'm going, guys,wait a second. Like, why are
you so Well, America's goingdown the tubes now. And it's
(21:25):
like, wait a minute, hold on.
Hold , hold on. Are you nothappy that unemployment is at
like 3.2% ? Like, do you knowhow low the Yeah. And it's
like, hold on, hold on. You'reputting your hope in the wrong
thing. Now, in saying this, Ivote, I vote number one because
I'm an American citizen andit's my right number. Number
(21:46):
two, I vote because there's ahistory in our nation where
black Americans were deniedtheir constitutional right to
be able to vote. We werelynched, our church were
bombed. Uh, um, we were, wewere, we, we had dogs unleashed
upon us. So I vote, but Irecognize that that's not my
supremacy of my action in thekingdom of God. I've gone to
(22:10):
Washington DC to advocate and land and advocate for
immigration reform. If peoplesaw what it took for
immigration to take place, youwould be blown away. It's
designed for people not to beable to come into our NA
nation, but we need strongborders. Like border strength
(22:30):
is important. It doesn't haveto be an either or . Like I can
care about life in a womb and amigrant child's ability while
at the same time saying they'resystemic injustice. It doesn't
have to be one camp or theother. The kingdom of God is
outrageously beautiful andglorious and perplexing to
(22:53):
political idol ideologies .
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I thought this message was so, so profound.
Um, I know there's a lot ofpastors that listen to this and
you know, pastors have had areally tough couple of years.
Uh, do you have any advice cuzthe , the pastors that I talk
to, you know, they're like, nomatter what I say, it's never
enough. And no matter what Isay, it's always too much. Do
you have any, any thoughts whenit comes to pastors on
addressing politics in thechurch?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so what I would say iswhenever you address political
idolatry as a hobby and not aholy habit, it's gonna come off
wrong. And here's what I mean.
Um, the things I've been sayingat Transformation Church during
this crazy time is what I wassaying when it wasn't crazy. So
(23:40):
our church actually grewtremendously through all of
this chaos because I didn't sayanything that hadn't been said
before. Way before GeorgeFloyd, I had been brokering
conversations between thepolice and the church and the
African American community. Cuzas a black man, I've always
(24:03):
known once again, it doesn'thave to be a either or it can
be a both. And, and so when youtalk about these topics as a
hobby, what you catch the fishwith is what you keep the fish
with. And so what a lot of mywhite pastor friends did when
George Floyd was murdered isthey immediately went to , uh,
(24:23):
George Floyd racism. And a lotof their white congregants were
like, wait a hold on, wait,wait dude, what do you, what do
you, what do you like gettingwoke? Like, what are you
saying? Like, what are youdoing? And a part of it is
like, this shouldn't haverespectfully what happened to
George Floyd is not the tip ofthe iceberg for racism and
(24:45):
systemic injustice in America.
It's not even close. It's noteven , uh, a man tragically
lost his life, but that's noteven close to what's causing so
much of the racial , uh, uh,uh, am amne between people. And
(25:07):
, and so, but what a lot of mywhite pastors did , friends
did, it was such a hobby thatwhen they got into Stewart , it
wasn't a habit for theirchurch. And I had friends le
lose thousands of people,millions of dollars. Um, and so
what I would say is make sureyou're steadily feeding people
(25:27):
a well-balanced meal . So whenthis comes up, it , it won't,
it won't, it won't be a thing.
A a pastor friend of mine, he'spastors church for 30 years,
multi-site church, cutting edge, um, predominantly a white
church. And we were talking, hegoes, pastor, he goes, my heart
is broken. He's like, these arepeople, I married them. I
(25:50):
married their children, Iburied their dead. They've said
they love the church and Ispeak out against racism and
they leave the church andthey're calling me woke. And
they're calling me a liliberal, like, like, what did I
do wrong? And so the firstthing is always compassion. And
he said, you know, pastor, I'm,I'm really, really sorry that
(26:11):
you've experienced this. And II said, what I think happened
was because you hadn't beenteaching this year after year
after year after year, theywere used to a diet and their
spiritual appetite rejected it.
And they believe their latenight cable more than they
believe you. And so that's whyI'm like, listen man, I'm,
(26:37):
we've, we have bigger churchesthan we've ever had. More
multi-site churches than we'veever had, but yet we have more
conspiracy theories in a churchthan we've ever had racial
division in a church than we'veever had. So like, what exactly
are we doing? Like being like,like, like what exactly are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Uh , I wanna hit on that. Your, your latest book is
actually called How to Heal OurRacial Divide. Um, now that
we're on this topic, and, andI'll just leave this really ,
really open-ended, you know,why, why did you write this
and, and what can leaders getout of it?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
You know what Doug, the reason why I wrote the book
is because I seen the churchjust being to just being torn
apart. So , uh, it came out in, um, 2022. Um, but man, I seen
the seeds of it right afterPresident Trump. Things that I
normally would say from thepulpit, that was straight
(27:33):
Bible, there would be pushbackand it would echo certain
things that many people in thepolitical idol can't would say.
And I said, man, I have towrite a resource number one,
that is biblical number two,that is theological number
three, that is gospel centered. Number four, that it's
culturally aware. And thennumber five, here are practices
(27:54):
that you can actually do.
Because what I seen was a lotof my white pastor friends were
like, pastor, you're , you're ,you're , you're , you're right.
We need to change this. This iswrong. But they would go read
sociological books. Theywouldn't read theological
books. I don't have a problemwith sociological books, but
(28:15):
sociology cannot heal atheological problem. Only a
theological cure can heal atheological problem. And so
Jesus was left on thesidelines. In this discussion ,
everybody's talking aboutcritical race theory, they're
talking about this theory, andI'm like , all right guys, can
(28:36):
we just go back to Bible 1 0 1,Genesis 12 , God tells Abraham,
I'm going to give you a familythat's made up of all the
families of the earth throughAbraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The
nation of Israel comes thenation of Israel. Disobeyed
Jesus is the seed of Abraham.
(28:58):
And so Jesus lives a perfectlife, dies on the cross in a
place of humanity, raisesagain. He not only forgives our
families, reconciled to God,reconciled to each other,
living in the power of the HolySpirit, embodying the kingdom
of God on earth. Our unityshows the Father sent the son
our love displays that we'redisciples of Christ. Easy
peasy. Simple. I mean,literally that's like literally
(29:22):
first century Bible 1 0 1. Butwhat do we do? We've turned
Jesus into a self-help coachand five ways to heal your
stress. Four ways to get yourdream, and da da da da da .
Like, let's, if, if we justteach the Bible story, it's
there . Like case in point,Jesus, a Jew goes to Samaria to
(29:47):
meet a Samaritan woman. TheSamaritan and Jews were in a
ethnic feud for 700 yearsbecause in 7 22 BC the northern
trend tribes are taken in theBabylonian captivity . Out of
that becomes the um, um,Samaritans, Jesus meets the
Samaritan woman, he's theliving water. Her life is
(30:07):
transformed. But here's whatit's important for us to
understand. What is aSamaritan, a Jew and a Gentile
in one body? What's the churchsupposed to be? A Jew and a
Gentile in one body? What was aSamaritan woman? A woman.
What's the church? A bride inthat message is ethnic
(30:27):
reconciliation through theliving water.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So good. So talk to, talk to leaders listening to
this now. How can we be part ofthe solution when it comes to
ra healing our racial divide inour country, in our everyday
life?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Well, something that Rick Warren told me, which is
so true, the greatest season ispreparation for the season. And
so what I mean by that isbefore you try to go and change
the world, let it let, let themessage change you. What I
would say is leaders get mybook, how to Heal our Racial
(31:01):
Divide By 10 of them . Read 'emwith the most influential
people in your church and thenstart doing small groups. Start
doing sermons on it. And itstarts as a mustard seed and it
spreads. But so often , um,there are people who go into a
battle and they're notprepared. Um, respectfully,
(31:25):
what a lot of my white pastorfriends do is they go, man,
we're gonna be a diversechurch. You know what we're
gonna do? We're gonna hire someblack musicians and we're gonna
invite some of our blackfriends. See we're a black
church or , or we're amulti-ethnic church. No, you're
not your bowl of vanilla icecream with a few caramel and
chocolate chips in it. One ofthe ways that, you know, if
(31:48):
you're a multi-ethnic churchwho shapes with authority
through preaching and leadingthe action of the church, and
that's not about affirmativeaction, that's affirming the
right action. Here's anotherthing. A lot of white brothers
and sisters will say, well, wewant the church to be
(32:09):
multiethnic, but minoritiesdon't come. My question is, why
don't white people go tominority led churches? I
actually had a conversationwith a gen gen gentleman and I
said that to him cuz he islike, well, why won't black
people come to our church? AndI said, well, why don't you go
to a black church? And helooked at me like I had 12
heads. Like, that's not even athought. Through the
(32:30):
multi-ethnic church round tablethat we've done for eight years
now, we've trained over 600leaders in gospel centered ,
multi-ethnic missional church.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah. And so you , you also wrote a book on this
subject, how to build amulti-ethnic church. And as you
said, you do these roundtables, and again, we'll
include links. If you're apastor listening to this , uh,
who's interested in attending,we'll put a links to that. But
what are some practical things?
You have a multi-ethnic church.
What are some practical thingsthat you've done that has
enabled you to be multiethnic?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yep . Yep . And so , uh, I'm gonna , I'm gonna be a
tad bit snarky here, please. Soplease bear with me. Theo
Theology's always practical.
Yeah. Theology's meant to bepracticed. So as a result of
our theological convictions,the first thing is how we
understand the gospel shapes,how we communicate the gospel,
(33:21):
the churches we get is becauseof the gospel we preach. The
gospel we preach is thechurches that we get. And so we
believe Jesus not only forgivessins, but he creates a family
with different colored skins.
Jesus declares us righteous,therefore we see each other
clothing the righteous of ofChrist. Um, our leadership team
is ethnically div diverse. Ourmusic team is ethnically div
(33:44):
diverse. Um, we, we, we do notuse language like we're going
to help the poor. No. The poorcan teach us about what it
means to walk with Christ.
We're partnering with the poor.
Um, and, and so, you know,we've, we at the end of the day
(34:04):
treat everybody like Jesus diedfor them because he did
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So good. Um, anything else you wanna say on
that subject before Itransition Another way?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay . What you got?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, I , i just talking about leadership, you
know, I know the leadershipcomes with immense weight.
There's painful seasons. I'mjust curious, I love asking
leaders, how do you deal withthe pain and pressure that
comes with, with leading achurch for any large
organization?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah. Well, early on, not very well
on , um, not very well at all.
Um, over the, over the years,I've learned to center myself
on this rollercoaster byremembering Jesus can do so
(34:52):
much more than I can ever do.
Also, what I think is a bigdeal today, if I look back a
year later, I see that it's notso keep your head when
everybody else is losingtheirs. Remember who is
sovereign. And Al also, thegreatest thing that I can do is
(35:14):
to be prepared as best that Ias I can be. But I have to be
through the Holy Spirit'spower, a none anxious presence.
If I'm anxious, so is the team.
If I freak out, so is the team.
I have to model self-control,which comes from the power of
the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Hmm . I've, I've heard you talk about you love
to fish, right? Is that yourhobby ? One of your hobbies?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's my main hobby, my man
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Sabbath played in your life inresting and and was that hard
for you to learn? Or is thatsomething that just came
natural?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
No, it was , uh, it was very hard for me to learn.
It was very hard for me tolearn because you really think
you're more important than youare. And one of the ways that I
keep my self importance at bayis, I'll often say from the
pulpit, or I'll say in meetingsor even say to myself, is I'll
say, listen, in eternity, theFather, son and Holy Spirit,
(36:15):
were not going, oh my gosh, Icannot wait until April 9th,
1971 because at Robert B. GreenHospital in San Antonio, Texas,
Durwin Gray's gonna be born inWoohoo is gonna be awesome.
Like, like I'm really not thatimportant. Like, like, like
(36:36):
Jesus is the big deal. And soby taking a day of rest, what
I'm saying is, one Lord, Itrust you to complete what you
have called me to complete.
Number two, the Sabbath is nota day of being bored. It's a
day of delight. It's a day ofrecharging. It's a day of
creative imagination. And sofor me, fishing has always
(36:59):
played an important role in mylife. It reminds me of me and
my grandmother. Uh , years agoI was in a pastoral care class
and the professor teachingsaid, draw a picture of your
happiest childhood memory. Andmost people think, well, as an
NFL player, you're gonna drawone of you playing football.
And instinctively what I drewwas me and my grandmother
(37:23):
fishing under a tree.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Hmm .
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And my grandmother , uh, she really protected me and
took care of me. My , uh, momwas 17 when I was born. My dad
was 19. And , uh, you know,there was some substance abuse
issues. There were some mentalhealth issues mm-hmm .
and really shielded me. It wasa really chaotic environment.
(37:49):
Um, matter of fact, when I wasabout 42, 42 through about 45,
so this is seven years ago,there was a season where , um,
I was angry at how I wasraised. When I looked at the
dysfunction, when I looked atthe toxic , um, there's a
reason why physical health andmental health is not as good in
(38:11):
areas of, in , in , in contextof stress because cortisol and
adrenaline is always going andyour body had made for those
things. And so , um, I workedthrough that by God's grace to
say, man , they just did thebest that they could. But
fishing reminds me of the gooddays with my grand grandmother.
(38:31):
And so I pray, I sing. I don't,I don't, I don't even have to
catch fish to have fun,
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Wow. Do you have a , do you have a favorite fishing
story or any, what's thebiggest fish you've caught?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
That, that's unfair cause I gotlike a thousand. So , um, one
of my, one of my bucket listswas to fish in Spain. There's a
river in Spain called the Ebro. And the Ebro is known for a
giant species of catfish calledthe wells. And so I finally got
(39:04):
to go, we helped plant a churchin Madrid, Spain. So we went
and ministered to the pe pepeople there. And so we had a
day to ourselves . And so meand the pastor went to Fish
Toro with a guide, and we went, um, during a time when it was
hot , it was August and it justwasn't the best time. So they
(39:25):
said, you know , we may catch aFisher or two . So it was
pretty slow. And man, I hookedinto one and , uh, it was, it
was nearly five foot six tall.
Wow . And , uh, we estimatedprobably 110 pounds. And man, I
felt like a kid all over again.
It was great
(39:49):
congratulations, you caught asmall one.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Really? Yeah . Cause Oh
Speaker 2 (39:54):
My goodness. Cause typically they're probably
about a foot longer and about80 to 90 pounds heavier.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
How long did it take you to reel end ?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Oh, like 25 minutes.
It was, it was ridiculous. Itwas, it was awesome . If you go
to my Instagram at Durwin lGray , um, you can actually see
the picture of the giantcatfish. And of course we, we
let it go. And so that, that ,that's my most recent fun
fishing trip.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Oh man. That's awesome. Um, we're talking to
leaders, talk to leaders aboutlongevity. You're certainly not
at your finish line , um, butyou've been in ministry for a
long time and , uh, I'm sureyou've seen being in ministry
world, so many leaders havefallen and and not finished
their course. What advice doyou have for leaders when it
comes to character developmentand, and keeping their call so
they can make it to theirfinish line?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
That is leadership.
Leadership is the developmentof your, of your, of your
character. Because if you'renot developing your character,
you're le le leading , you're afraud. And eventually that's
gonna be exposed. And so whathappens is the more gifted you
are, the more better lookingyou are. The more talented you
(41:05):
are, the longer you can getaway with being , uh, uh, not a
person of integrity. You cancover it up longer, but
eventually , uh, you'll befound out. And so what's scary
about 2023, Doug , is this isan era where it's easy not to
(41:27):
have integrity. Cuz you canjust go, well, that's not true.
It didn't happen, and just moveon. Wow. And people who have a
vested interest in your successwill follow along. It won't, it
won't be until you cut offtheir vested in interest that
their eyes will be open and go,oh wow, this person's a fraud.
So what I would say for me,number one is I define
(41:49):
leadership as not simplyinfluence, but I define
leadership as becoming what youwant others to be. Wow. And for
me, that flows out of the wordsof Jesus. So Jesus tells his
disciples, he says , um, youdon't Lord it over like the
(42:09):
Gentiles do. So he is speakingof the Romans. The Romans were
barbaric, the Romans wereoppressive. And he's saying, if
you really wanna be a leader,rap a towel around your waist.
And , um, I say this and I hopeit comes across the right way.
I see a lot of Christianleaders not wanting to wrap
(42:30):
towels around their waist , butturn their congregations into
fan clubs. Yep .
Speaker 1 (42:35):
How can, how can leaders guard themselves
against that? Because I thinknaturally, I mean, we do live
in a world where everyone wantsa following, they wanna build
their following. And, andagain, pride and ego can want
that. Is there any ways that wecan protect ourselves?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Proverbs 4 23,guard your heart,
the wellspring of of life. So,so the first thing is this.
It's, it's, it's, and let mejust talk to pastors here. And
I, and I know not everybody's apastor, but it, it translate,
this is for me, what is therefor Derwin ? Great . A boast
(43:12):
about the life in me that makesme born again is the Holy
Spirit, the gospel that savesme as belongs to Christ. The
glory belongs to the fa faFather, the word of God is
God's, the people belong toGod. The spiritual gifts I have
belong to Holy Spirit. What isthere for me to boast about?
What , what's, what's there tobe arrogant? What what have I
(43:34):
done? Nothing. Big deal. And sothat's number one. Number two,
when it says, guard your heart,be careful with
disappointments, because a lotof times we don't mourn our
(43:54):
disappointments and we allowthem to add up like an unpaid
bill. And what happens is, asthey add up like an unpaid
bill, bitterness begins tobuild up. When bitterness
builds up, there's thisentitlement that comes about,
well, my wife isn't doing this,so I'm entitled to this. Well,
(44:17):
I'm belief and, anddisappointment creates this
bitterness. So it's importantthat when there's
disappointment to go blessed ofpoor spirit or , or blessed of
those who mourn for they willbe comforted. Take those
disappointments to God. Go seea therapist, have other mature
pastors pour into you, speak toyour spouse about it. Do not
(44:38):
let a bitter root come up. Andthen thirdly, like, don't
compare. Do not compare. Biggeris not better. Better is
better.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
That's so good. And yeah, a few years ago, the fall
of 2020, I had a , I had what Icall a mental breakdown. It was
the result of a lot of things.
And basically what you justsaid, I had to go through a
process, went to therapy, abunch of things. And one thing
my, my therapist said to me,that was so good, he said, I've
had a lot of loss in my mylife. I lost my mom when I was
17. My sister died of a heroinoverdose, all these different
things. And, and I thought Ihad grieved those things. I'm
(45:12):
walking with God, you know,Hey, I have peace. Um , but my
therapist just said, Doug, youcan't, you can't say goodbye to
something you never said helloto. And he had me go to all the
grave sites and write lettersto everyone I've lost. And I
just realized I've never
entire life. And I can't tellyou how life changing that was.
And so just thank you forsharing that with leaders. I I
just wanna speak to the factthat I know that to be true.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah. Well, and thank you for being vulnerable
and sharing. American theologydoes not have space for Jesus'.
Theology that says , blessedare those who mourn for they
will be comforted. What'sinteresting, Doug, that word
blessed and Greek is the word.
And so we run away frommourning, which means we're
(45:57):
running away from happiness,which comes from the comforting
presence of God. God can'tcomfort that, which we don't
bring to him to comfort uswith.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
And this is huge.
And, and again,
seems like, but you wrote abook called The Good Life . And
what I loved about it was itwas the exact opposite of what
you would think and youactually used to be attitudes
as the way to a happy life.
Anything else you wanna , wedon't have time to cover the
whole book, but anything youwanna share about that book
and, and more of that message?
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Oh yeah. That, that, that was, that was the divine
paradox that if I can sum upthat book, is Jesus is like,
I'm gonna give you the keys tohappiness, but you've gotta
take them and unlock the doorand walk in. Mm-hmm .
(46:46):
were created to be. Happy arethe peacemakers for they will
be called sons and daughters ofGod. Happy are the merciful for
they will see God. Happy arethe poor spirit for theirs as a
kingdom of he heaven. Jesus isactually saying, you truly can
be happy, but it's not the wayyou think. And it's a deeper,
(47:09):
richer happiness that your facecan be shedding tears, but your
soul can be smiling.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I love it. Well , uh, we're gonna dive into the
lightning room now, but uh, forthose listening we've mentioned
several of Erwin's books. Uh,we'll include links to all of
them, recommend all of themcheck out his sermons on his
church and , uh, lots ofresources out there for you.
Um, so with the time we haveleft, just a bunch of fun
questions I ask in everyinterview. The first one is,
what is the best advice you'veever received and who gave it
(47:36):
to you?
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Uh, the best advice that I have ever received was
from my late mentor Alan Bacon.
And , um, basically I wastelling him how tired I was
from going out and speaking andtraveling and sharing the
gospel when I came home. Iwanted to rest and it was my
wife's job, you know, to takecare of the kids and let me
(47:59):
rest. So I told him all thisstuff and the advice he gave me
is he said, son, if you goingout preaching a gospel makes
you too tired to love and serveyour wife and kids, then you
need to stop preaching a gospelbecause that is the gospel.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Woo . How'd that feel?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Uh, it sucked. But it was the best thing,
. It was what I needed to hear,and it guides my life and
ministry. Now,
Speaker 1 (48:21):
What are one or two books that have made a
significant impact on yourlife, either recently or all
time that you'd recommend?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Um, all time . The book that I would recommend is
Conformed to His Image by KenBoa .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well , pastor Derwin, this has been
phenomenal. Thank you so muchfor taking the time to invest
in me and everyone that willlisten to this and hopefully
we'll get to do it againsomeday .
Speaker 2 (48:42):
All right . Awesome.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Hey, leader, thank you so much for listening to my
conversation with PastorJerwin. I hope that you enjoyed
it as much as I did. You canfind ways to connect with him
in links to everything that wediscussed in the show
notes@lthreeleadership.orgslash 3 73 in Leader. I want to
challenge you that if you wanna10 x your growth this year,
then you need to either launchor join in L three Leadership
Mastermind Group. Mastermindgroups are groups of six or 12
(49:04):
leaders that meet together forat least one year in order to
help each other grow, hold eachother accountable and to do
life together. For mepersonally, mastermind groups
have been the greatest sourceof growth in my life over the
last eight years. If you'reinterested in learning more
about launching or joininggroup, go to L three
leadership.org/masterminds. Andas always, I like to end every
episode with a quote, and todayI'll quote Dave Ramsey who
(49:25):
said, success is just a pile ofall the mistakes you've made,
and you're standing on itrather than buried under it. So
good. Well, leader , I hopethis episode encourages you
know that my wife, Laura , andI love you. We believe in you
and I say it every episode, butdon't quit. Keep leading the
world desperately needs yourleadership. We'll talk to you
next episode.
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