Doug Smith on Overcoming Mental Health Issues, Parenting, and How to be Good with People

Episode Transcript
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Doug Smith (00:00):
I just show up as I am and do my best and it's been
so freeing to get out of thatstage and really just step into
confidence and hopefully I canhelp younger leaders get there a
lot quicker than I did.

Zack Blair (00:10):
Because, as you know it, took me a while.

Doug Smith (00:13):
["the L3 Leadership Podcast"].
Hey, leader, and welcome toanother episode of the L3
Leadership Podcast, where we areobsessed with helping you grow
to your maximum potential and tomaximize the impact of your
leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsand fair tongue advisors.
We also recorded this live fromthe new Bergo Realty Studio.

(00:34):
If you're new to the podcast,welcome.
I'm so glad that you're hereand I hope that you enjoy our
content and become a subscriber.
Know that you can also watchall of our episodes over on our
YouTube channel, so make sureyou're subscribed there as well.
And, as always, if the podcasthas made an impact on your life
and you've been listening for awhile, it would mean the world
to me if you would leave us arating and review on Apple
Podcast or Spotify or whereveryou listen to podcasts through.
That really does help us togrow our audience and reach more

(00:56):
leaders, so thank you inadvance for that.
Well, leader, in today'sepisode you're gonna be hearing
me be interviewed by my goodfriend, Zack Blair, who is the
pastor of Hill City Church herein Pittsburgh, and we have been
doing life and ministry togetherfor over 20 years, and that's
what made this conversation thatmuch more interesting.
You're gonna hear us talk aboutso many things.
We talk about mental health, wetalk about parenting, we talk
about how to become good withpeople and we talk about why

(01:19):
friendships and relationshipsare so important, and so much
more.
I think this is gonna add a tonof value to your life.
But before we dive in, just afew announcements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BeratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by

(01:41):
visiting their website atberatungadvisorscom.
That's B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisors.
com.
Securities and InvestmentProducts and Services offered
through LPL Financial memberFINRA and SIPC.
Beratung Advisors, lplFinancial and L3 Leadership are
separate entities.
I also wanna thank our sponsor,Henne Jewelers.
They were jewelry earned by myfriend and mentor, John Henne

(02:03):
and my wife Laura and I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henne Jewelers and hadan incredible experience.
And not only do they have greatjewelry, but they also invest
in people.
In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
a book to help them prepare formarriage, and we just love that
.
So if you're in need of a goodjeweler, check out HenneJewelers
.
com.
And with all that being said,let's dive right in.
Here's my conversation withZack Blair.

(02:24):
Zack Blair.

Zack Blair (02:26):
Hey everybody, I'm here with one of my very best
friends in the world, Doug Smith.
He's with L3, with Light ofLife, with so many other things.
We talked today about parenting, about leadership, about
investing in deep relationships,about mental health Dude, we
talked about it all.
It was awesome.
This is one of the best onesI've ever done, simply because
this is one of the best guys Iknow.
So I know you're in for a treattoday.

(02:47):
I've never said that before,but you are.
So we both were under PastorLarry Bettencourt, who
completely changed our livesright, and we both call
ourselves basically children ofhim.
So, super cool man.
But over the last 20 years, man, I've appreciated your
friendship more than I couldexpress and just a few short
words here, like you really meana lot to me.

(03:09):
You do so much for not only meand Lauren, and you and Laura do
so much for me and Lauren, butyou've done so much for the
church, you've done so much forjust.
You've always championed me andbelieved in me.
Like, just appreciate you, dudeStill do man?

Doug Smith (03:24):
Yeah, extremely grateful for your friendship as
well.
Again, you've been there in thedarkest times of my life, the
highest points of my life,cheering me on and been a
constant source of encouragement.
So it's been quite a journey,man.
And hey, our best days arestill ahead.
We're still young.
Yeah, we're still young.
We haven't hit 40 yet.
We're hanging on to our 30s.

Zack Blair (03:39):
That's 20 years of relationship, man.
You know we were both boneheadswhen we first came to Christ,
right, we were both kind of likeall over the place and you know
.
But Pastor Larry believed in usand you know we grew close and
I remember, yeah, it's been coolbecause, like, we have been
there for each other in the bestof times and the worst of times
, yeah, and that's whatfriendship is.

Doug Smith (03:58):
Yeah, I still remember when I met you the week
we were at Jack 2023, I thinkit was the last day I came in.
We were just laying on thefloor and you were like, hey,
man, I had to share my storywith you and that was the
beginning.
And so it's been a lot of funman, got to be in your wedding,
got to see you have kids.
I still we were just talkingabout this other day.
I still remember being in thebackyard of our townhouses and
that season and you tell me, no,it was going to be born man.
It's just been a blast.

Zack Blair (04:18):
Yeah, I think that was the first time I ever
grilled a steak too.
I don't know, did I get to tryit?

Doug Smith (04:23):
I waited a long time .
Yeah, I made you steak.

Zack Blair (04:25):
I was like this is like really dry, Like I had no
clue what I was doing.

Doug Smith (04:27):
I guess it wasn't my fault.
I was going to make you a steak, yeah, no, that's good, that's
good, but I'm sure you've grownin your steak.

Zack Blair (04:32):
Yeah, oh, I'm smoking.
Now I'm doing some fun stuff,yeah, yeah, man.
So, dude, just for everyone'scontext, doing L3, you're doing
light of life.
I mean, man, there's so muchthat's going on in your world
and I appreciate you taking timetoday, man.

Doug Smith (04:49):
Yeah, I'm honored to be here, man.

Zack Blair (04:50):
Yeah.
So what's been going on in yourworld?
What's the Lord been teachingyou?

Doug Smith (04:54):
Yeah, for me and you've been along for the whole
journey I feel like over thepast three years God's really
taken me from a place of being ayoung, insecure leader and I'll
just pause there.
The young leader thing.
I know we always looked aroundall the things that we heard
around being a 20-something andwe're not really getting into
leadership, but I was a light oflife.
Yeah, I guess it was threeyears ago now and I didn't get

(05:16):
invited to a meeting that wasfor emerging leaders and I was
like this is weird.
I'm always in those meetingsand I went to our executive
director and I just said hey,why wasn't I in that meeting?
He's like it's 35 and under man.

Zack Blair (05:29):
And I've been in my heart.
So I guess I'm like this is arevelation, like I am not a
young leader anymore.

Doug Smith (05:34):
I made it.

Zack Blair (05:35):
I'm pretty adjusted.

Doug Smith (05:38):
But I would just say from that time Still at the
film-o though right yeah, itwasn't, I wouldn't say it was
like.
At that point I started growingin confidence.
But I do feel like for thefirst 15 years of my leadership
journey and even my Christianwalk, man, so much insecurity,
so much striving to prove myselfand really just operating out
of everything I was doing toperform and prove that I was

(05:58):
enough, and I feel like around35, 36, God just started showing
me the value that I have andthat, man, I don't have to
strive, and a lot of that camethrough a mental breakdown I had
, which we can talk about, butcoming out of that I just feel
like God's really taken me intoa place where I know who I am.
I know who I am.
Even more importantly, I knowhow I'm gifted and wired.

(06:18):
I know how I value to the world.
I don't need all the accolades,I don't need all the pats on the
back.
I'm just very, very confidentand very focused on what I
believe God's called me to do,and that is a huge shift for me.
I'm no longer going intomeetings or meeting with people
and saying I feel less than or Ihope in this meeting I can
prove that I'm a great leader toeveryone.

(06:39):
I just show up as I am and domy best, and it's been so
freeing To get out of that stageand really just step into
confidence and hopefully I canhelp younger leaders get there a
lot quicker than I did.

Zack Blair (06:50):
Because, as you know it, took me a while.
What's the root of that?
What's the root of the lack ofconfidence In your life, maybe
in the common life?

Doug Smith (06:57):
Yeah, I mean you know my story.
So I grew up really heavy kids,so there's insecurities around
body image.
Never did well in school.
I think I had a 1.6 GPA when Igraduated.

Zack Blair (07:08):
What was that attributed to what?
Why didn't you do well inschool?
Because you're really smart.

Doug Smith (07:12):
Oh, I didn't try yeah.

Zack Blair (07:14):
How many books a year do you read?
Oh, I have no idea.

Doug Smith (07:16):
Probably 20 to 40.
Yeah, 20 to 40.

Zack Blair (07:18):
A lot of podcasts.

Doug Smith (07:19):
Yeah, it's interesting.
But I think for me and I'velearned this from you, actually
when we were in youth ministryyou have kids that will act out
or maybe aren't living up totheir potential and we see the
potential, but they may not.
And it's people like you PastorLarry Bettencourt, my high
school principal, myfather-in-law, mike Stadel those
were the first seeds of hopethat were planted in me that

(07:43):
maybe I am smart, maybe I dohave leadership abilities, Maybe
I can grow and develop.
And I never received that as ayoung person.
And so when I started gettingaround all of those things, I
basically in middle schooldetermined that I would never
amount to anything.
And my dad's a bus driver andthere's nothing wrong with being
a bus driver.
But I just thought, hey, Idon't have to try in school to
be a bus driver, so I'll justparty, live it up and jump into

(08:05):
that world afterwards.
But when I started gettingthose seeds of hope in me, it's
like, oh my gosh, I can actuallydo something.
That's when everything changed.
And then my senior year of highschool gave my life to Christ
after my mom died.
And really getting aroundpeople like I mentioned Larry,
my father-in-law, et ceterathat's what really helped turn
my life around and helped me tofocus on my potential, and I
think so many people listeningto this that struggle with

(08:26):
insecurity.
Man, they just need to be toldwho they are and what they're
capable of, and they do havehope for our future and they can
do great things, and I thinkour culture and our world is
desperately crying for that.

Zack Blair (08:36):
Yeah, I feel like discipleship is rejecting the
lie, locating the lie, rejectingthe lie, replacing it with
truth, and that's what a lot oftherapists, counselors, also do
For me.
I remember the lack ofconfidence started to come in
when I had an authority figuretelling me that I was stupid and
I wouldn't amount to anything,and did that happen to you at
all?

Doug Smith (08:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, I remember my ninth grade
teacher.

Zack Blair (08:58):
I can't remember exactly.

Doug Smith (09:00):
He would always tell us like you're going to work at
a gas station.

Zack Blair (09:02):
Oh same thing, 6-grade.

Doug Smith (09:03):
It's so funny.
It's like who?
Looking back, I'm like who?
Who is this guy's boss?
Let me go talk to them.
Right, but like yeah, who areyou to say that to a kid, and
literally I mean you think aboutthe ceiling that creates in
kids' lives.

Zack Blair (09:14):
They believe it.

Doug Smith (09:15):
You believe it Because, again, you think these
people know what they're talkingabout.

Zack Blair (09:19):
Yeah, I remember that.
I remember that was the daythat I stopped trying.
Wow, like well, if I'm stupidlike he says I am, why would I
even try?

Doug Smith (09:26):
Yeah, so when did the light?

Zack Blair (09:27):
bulb turn for you?
That's a great question.
I don't think it ever.
I think I pretended that it did.
I'm speaking like just kind offrom, you know, without
processing it.
I think I pretended like it did.
But I always carried that rootof insecurity with me and there
was a moment that we were goingthrough the land deal and I was

(09:48):
meeting with an attorney and Ifelt like this need to
continually over-prepare.
So I prepared these legaldocuments.
Why would I prepare legaldocuments when I'm paying an
attorney, right?
To prepare legal documents, forhe's like who did this?
And I said I did.
And he's like what?
He's like you're really smart.
I was like oh, because Laurenwould tell me I was smart.

Doug Smith (10:09):
Yeah, but I'm like you have to tell me that You're
my wife, true.

Zack Blair (10:15):
She's not to say that you know.

Doug Smith (10:16):
Yeah, but it's so good man I remember you telling
me I forget what study this was,but like the number one way
kids in situations that theyshouldn't be in.
The only way that they reallyget out is if someone else shows
them another way.

Zack Blair (10:29):
Different way.

Doug Smith (10:29):
yeah, I mean that's always impacted me, Because the
reality is, the only reason Igot out was I gave my life to
Christ and I had three or fourleaders.
Show me a different way.
You're talking aboutdiscipleship.
Like I think you know andespecially if people are more
mature listening to this theopportunity you have to show
people another way.
I think people grosslyunderestimate their
opportunities to do this If theyhave kids.

(10:50):
You have kids coming to yourhouse every day who probably
need you to speak into theirlife and speak out over them.
They may not be getting that athome.
Your work, I mean literallylook around and I promise you
there's a need that you couldhelp me and help deal with this
insecurity epidemic that we'refacing in our world.

Zack Blair (11:04):
Yeah, yeah, but dude , even man, I love that.
I love that, and I'm justwatching you and I'm listening
to you talk and I'm hearing the.
It's natural, the intelligence,the ability that you have to
relate with people and that'sone of the more genius things I
think that you have is yourability to relate with people.
I cannot picture you as a kid,somebody not liking you.
Yeah, was that always the case?

(11:26):
People love you.
Yeah, I would say.
I mean, you're lovable man.
Yes, like you really are.

Doug Smith (11:30):
Yeah, and again, just back to the confidence Like
I do feel like God's alwaysgiven me the ability to relate
with all people.
So I've always been able toconnect with people younger than
me, same age as me, older thanme, which was great.
But you could be good withpeople and have no purpose and
be going in the wrong directionand have no one tell you that.
I always think this is going tothe friend example, but I had

(11:51):
all the friends in the world inhigh school and when I first
started walking with God, themost difficult thing I ever did
was walk away from my oldfriends.
And it happened because we havea mutual friend.
But I was having a party in myhouse with all my high school
friends.
They were all getting drunk andhigh.
My house was a party housebecause my mom wasn't there, my
dad always was working and thiskid from church wanted to come
over and I had him over and Itold my friends I'm like, hey,

(12:13):
this kid comes over, I'm churchdug, I don't do anything, but as
soon as he leaves, it's onWe'll party.
We came over, saw my friendsdoing what they were doing,
literally grabbed me by theshirt, pulled me into another
room, slapped me in the facephysically and said what are you
doing?
And I said what do you mean?
What am I doing?
And he said what are you doing?
And I said well, those are justmy friends.
He goes, I know what you'redoing, I know the lifestyle
you're living, and he knew I wasinterning at the church and he

(12:35):
said you have three days to tellPastor Larry, and if you don't
I will.
And I wanted to kill this kidbecause all of a sudden we were
talking back about those seedsof hope that were planted in me.
For the first time in my life,at 18 years old, I felt like
there may have been another wayof life that I didn't have to
keep going down the path.
I was on my way to being analcoholic, I was on my way to

(12:56):
being an addict All thesedifferent things and not doing
anything with my life.
And all of a sudden I startedhanging around the church and
Pastor Larry, you and I'm likemaybe I can do something with my
life, and I thought all thatwas gonna be over.
And you know, when you wannatalk about the power of
encouraging word, I cried forthree days, so afraid, because I
knew I had to have aconversation with Pastor Larry,
who's overseeing the internship.

(13:17):
Yeah, and what I wasanticipating was for him to look
at me and say get out, you'redone, sorry.
And I went in.
I couldn't even look in the eye.
I still remember theconversation.
I'm looking down, I'm crying myeyes.
I'll tell him what I've beendoing.
And I looked up and expectedhim, you know, pointing his
finger at me, and he had, ofcourse, larry.
He had a huge smile on his face.
He wasn't surprised, he knew.
And he said bubba, which is mynickname.

(13:38):
He said Doug, I love you and Ibelieve in you.
And the Bible says that arighteous man falls down seven
times but gets back up again.
Get back up again.
But then he qualified and hesaid but I can't continue to let
you lead and live the lifestylethat you're living, so what are
you gonna do?
And that was, I think, what agreat conversation.

Zack Blair (13:54):
Oh well, I guess I'll just take it here.
You know, it's grace and truthgrace and truth.

Doug Smith (13:59):
You want to talk about people being loved, like I
think, for people to change.
We talk about this in ourmastermind groups.
We want everyone to be fullyknown, fully loved and fully
challenged in that moment.
What does that mean?
Fully known?
I was able, because I knew thatLarry loved me, to actually
confess a lifestyle I've beenliving that I wasn't proud of.
I was able to be fully known inthat, even though it wasn't
something I was proud of.
Then, fully loved man, hedidn't condemn me.

(14:20):
He had a huge smile on my onhis face, and he basically just
said it's gonna be okay, butthen, fully challenged, he
didn't let me stay where I was.
And I think this is where youknow, being great, good with
people Is great, but you needpeople who are gonna fully
challenge you in your life.
Yeah, and he said I can't letyou lead like this.
What are you gonna do?
And and that led me to walkingaway from all my friends having
conversations.
I want, by the way, talk aboutfully loved, known, known, loved

(14:43):
and challenged.
Going back to that kid, theyslapped me in the face and
grabbed me.
I had a conversation with himand he said Doug, let me tell
you something about friends.
He said friends love you theway that you are, but real
friends love you enough not tolet you stay where you are.
Yeah, and that's when Irealized that, like you could
have all the friends in theworld, but if they're not
challenging you to be better,they can love you and know you

(15:04):
right.
All my friends that weren'twalking with God knew me, love
me Even though I was on my wayto be an alcoholic, doing
nothing with my life, etc.
And I had one friend, oneperson that I had a good
relationship with, that loved meenough to literally, physically
in this case Slap me in theface.
And so you know we can talkmore about relational skills,
but when I think about it'sgreat to be loved by all, but
you need you know we talkedabout this we need deep

(15:25):
friendships in our lives, withpeople who will fully know us,
fully love us and fullychallenge us.
And you can be as great as youare with people, but if you
don't have that, you're nevergonna develop to your potential.

Zack Blair (15:34):
Yeah, yeah.
So where did you get youremotional intelligence?
How did you develop that?

Doug Smith (15:37):
I think I was just wired.
You know my parents they were.
They certainly were perfectparents.
But I tell people all the timemy mom was always the life of
the party.
So you know, when I think aboutmy personality, I remember
growing up We'd have oldienights you know, this is very
you know on 3ws, and so we wouldcall in and we would just dance
and sing all night.
I just have a blast.
My mom was always in the schoolvolunteering, and so she was

(15:59):
just a life of the party.
So I tell people you know whereI got my love for life is from
my mom and then my dad.
He's more introverted, morereserved, but I've never met
someone who loves people so well.
He would do anything for anyoneand he'll serve anyone and why
say anyone?
I mean anyone, and he's.
He always modeled that and henever Talked to me about it.
He never said, hey, watch this.

(16:19):
This is why I'm doing that.
It's just his heart, and so youknow part of it.
I think it's the way God wiredme.
But to, I think, just that mixof knowing how to love and serve
people and making it not aboutyou, but then also being a blast
to be around and trying to youknow, have fun.
I think it was a combination ofthose and then just a lot of up
and down lessons along the way.

Zack Blair (16:39):
Yeah, are you trying to teach your kids that purpose
?

Doug Smith (16:41):
only yeah.

Zack Blair (16:42):
Oh, for sure, man, yeah, how do you teach your kids
that, like I'm working on thatsome are more naturally
emotionally intelligent.
I feel like the younger theyget, the more they're starting
to think of.
In psychology there's this Termcalled the theory of mind.
It's really, it's reallyfascinating, okay.
So theory of mind is basicallyI can, I can bet what that other
person is thinking right now.
Right, I can put myself intheir shoes and I can, I can

(17:04):
think if I were in their shoes,this is what I'd be thinking.
There's actually a higher rateof autism with.
If you have less theory of mind, you have more propensity to
having autism, which isfascinating.
And a lot of first-borns have alower theory of mind because
you know they're kind of caredfor okay, too much, probably For
today, right, but I don't know.

(17:25):
I've just been kind ofruminating on that and and I
thought New Lawrence, hotautistic children for a long
time I was actually thinking,and how many of those were
first-born children and more,and said 90% of them were
first-born children.
And think about the autisticchildren that you know they're
Mainly first-borns, which isreally interesting, yeah, so the
younger is there and they'rewondering what the other people

(17:46):
are thinking, naturally, right,so we have to teach that to the
older's a little bit moreemotional intelligence like the
first-born is like hey, comeinto the room and just tell the
truth.
I'm just gonna tell the truth so, and so is doing this right now
.
I'm gonna like okay, you know,like let's not start the pot,
that's natural.
You know how do you teach that?
I'm working through that.

Doug Smith (18:04):
Yeah, I mean one.
You're ahead of me, so Ilearned from you.
I remember just a sign for afunny story, larry we talked
about past your Larry being amentor yeah, to both of us.
And I remember when I firststarted having kids I'm like,
hey, past your Larry, give mesome, give me some advice on
parenting.
And you just look, he's like,talk to Zach and Lauren.
They have more moderntechniques.

Zack Blair (18:33):
But I would just to say for me people might not
think that's about parenting,but how to be a parent.

Doug Smith (18:38):
That's a laze, yeah.
So for me, the way we'retraining our kids doing the best
that we know how is right now.
What's working is so we haveour Saturday night.
We call it a Shabbat dinner,but it's a family dinner and
after every Saturday nightdinner we basically get the
Bible, we pull out a fewscriptures whatever's on my
heart and then now the kids aregetting older and they're
learning to read.
They'll read the scripture orI'll read it, and then we really

(18:59):
just talk about it.
Yeah, and so that's been reallyreally helpful.
And then after that webasically do what we call manner
lessons, and the kids love this, for whatever reason manner
lessons, but we literallypractice.
So we'll get up and we'll justthink through different skills.
When we learn, say like, hey,like this past weekend we were
doing it, someone.
Someone rings the doorbell andanswers the door.
Show me how you.

Zack Blair (19:21):
Would actually open the door and answer it.

Doug Smith (19:22):
Yeah, hey okay one, I'm someone you know and love
your grandpa.

Zack Blair (19:25):
Oh, we love you.
You know hugs and say hey.

Doug Smith (19:27):
I'm a stranger, there's someone at the door that
you don't know.
How do you interact?
What do you say to them?
And so we just role play backand forth different situations,
and then, hey, like the kidsjust went and delivered some
things to neighbors today and wehad them do it on their own, so
actually throwing them insituations, and then it's just a
matter of coaching in real life.

Zack Blair (19:45):
So, doc, this would be brilliant to do for our
foster girls.
I never thought about this.
I don't know how I neverthought about it, but because
they came into our world.
Sometimes they can think okay,well, anybody that's that that
knows that can learn.
They're obviously safe, sothey'll run to them and hug them
right.
But we're like, wait, if youdon't know them like we had to
teach what one you just don'thug everybody.

(20:07):
You don't ask them to just pickyou up and carry you everywhere
.
I don't know everybody.
That is that that might know myname.

Doug Smith (20:12):
Yeah, no, that's so good and especially, I think,
just with the platform, is thatGod's given both of us,
especially.

Zack Blair (20:17):
You know people are listening to this and that's not
it, so arrogant in it I'm likeI don't know everybody that
knows my name.
No, no, I mean.

Doug Smith (20:23):
I mean in a genuine way, though, yeah again when
you're I know I mean you're achurch it's like hundreds of
people know you and and I thinkyou actually talked about this
one point Like, yeah, if you'reon social media and even have
posted like one picture of yourfamily, Everyone on social media
you know.
You told me like thinks theyknow everything about your kids.
I mean you can talk more aboutthat.
But that kind of like had me inthe mentality of like oh,

(20:45):
people are gonna start talkingto my kids and they don't even
know who they are and they knowthings about them.

Zack Blair (20:49):
Like I'd be yeah, yeah.
Well, I told my kids, like, ifyou don't know somebody, if you
you don't have and they knowthings about you, you don't have
to talk to them.
So it's like the opposite ofmanners.
Yeah, it's like if you feel likeI want them to be okay with the
feeling of discomfort, like so,if somebody comes up to them
and they're like hey, noah, howare you?
And he looks at them, he's likeI don't recognize this person.

(21:11):
Hey, judah, how are you?
I don't recognize this person,just say hi, kindly.
But you don't have to answerany questions.
You don't have to.
You know, yeah, you don't haveto.
You don't have to go anyfurther than that.

Doug Smith (21:19):
That's so good, yeah , and I think what you're saying
is true, like going back to.
So we do formal training, butthen it's just a matter of
coaching, right?
And so I think we had ourfriend Matt Keller in the other
month and he just talked aboutthere's two different kinds of
coaching.
One is us sitting across fromeach other, me telling you what
to do and what was wrong withwhat you did, and the others me
coming Around the side of you,putting my arm around you and
explaining like, hey, what doyou think that person felt?

(21:39):
Or, and so, even just littlethings.
I'm thinking with you.
Know my two older girls, I'llhear them interact with either
adults or you know other people,and all they do is they'll
start telling them stuff abouttheir life and you know hey, I'm
doing this, we're doing this athome, or hey, we have this, and
it's like that's not you know,and really just sitting down
with them and saying you didn'task them anything about them,

(22:02):
and like we shouldn't startconversations ever with us, like
we should be more curious aboutother people.
Yeah, and you want to talk backabout me?
I think I'm also naturallywired like this, but I think one
of the best ways to be goodwith people is to genuinely
become more interested in themthan you are in yourself.
Yeah, and if you do that andalways put others first.
You know you'll be and I thinkthat's what we're trying to
teach our kids of like hey, it'snot about you, like you don't

(22:24):
have to tell them everythingyou're doing.
Like become naturally curiousabout other people and that'll
go a long way, but it's justcoaching when they, when they,
do something they shouldn't.

Zack Blair (22:32):
It's just you got to get on that and right, do it
over, and it's what you'resaying is it expands beyond
parenting.
It expands to just people ourage, even above right.
Yeah, learning emotionalintelligence is one of the best
things.
Angela Madden, one of herpastors said it you're good with
people and because you're goodwith people, you're gonna be
good at anything that you do,and that's what I see in you.

(22:53):
You know I really love thatabout you.
You and Lauren.
I have that similar wiring whenyou're with people.
Yeah, and I.
You know you're one of thepeople I've watched for a long
time like okay, so how does Douginteract with people?
That's probably how I shouldinteract with people, because I
was more of a firstborn onlychild.
You know, to me and kind of tomyself a little bit more in my
own thoughts, I love being,obviously, with people, but the

(23:13):
asking questions was notsomething that I learned at a
young age, and so Lauren said,said to me one time I'll never
get this.
She said she's exactly.
You know, there's one thing thatpeople really always love to
talk about, and what's thatthemselves so she's like just
ask people questions you know,but on on your side of it,
because you probably are sonatural at asking questions, you

(23:33):
feel sometimes overlooked inconversations because you're
making it about other people allthe time.

Doug Smith (23:39):
No, but it's probably because I've always
done it.
The interesting thing is, likeI have a podcast as well and I
always ask for feedback becauseI always want to get better and
I would say, pretty consistentfeedback is like hey, I want to
hear more of your voice.
Yeah, like I want to hear yourthoughts and opinion.
And going back to even what wetalked about in the beginning of
, like confidence, I think Iactually insecure out of
insecurity, like I wouldactually hide behind questions

(24:00):
sometimes.
Oh, okay, so like hey, you, youknow, you don't need to hear
anything that I'm going to saylike I'm not and I think I'm
starting to Reverse that.
But that's really helped me,like when I have people I'm
interviewing saying like, hey,tell me your opinion?
And I think I was so insecureand afraid of like what if I say
the wrong thing, what if I saysomething dumb, or and all I all
it really was was I'm afraid ofwhat the other person thinks of

(24:21):
me when I'm Trying to be in.
My friend said something theother day, again just losing
confidence.
I did an interview with him andI asked him for feedback,
because I'm not usually on thisside of interviewing and he said
Doug, you don't have toapologize for like your voice or
anything you say.
He's like I hope you know thatpretty much everything you say
is going to be awesome and sojust be secure in that.

(24:41):
And of course, can I saysomething dumb or it doesn't,
yes, but hearing that, I'm likewhat if we all operate out of
this?
everyone, I shouldn't sayeveryone- If we were confident
in saying like man, I do havesomething to say, and usually
what I do say it's gonna addvalue to people.
I think we'd all be in a lotbetter place.

Zack Blair (24:58):
I think the difference that we might be
speaking of is you've, you've,you've done a consistent job of
filling your heart with greatthings for so long that it's
like gushers, you know.
You know where your kidsgushers you squeeze up what's on
the inside is gonna come outwhen you squeeze that gusher.
You know times of pressurereveal You're gonna lead well in
times of pressure.
You know if you have somethingto say in a situation.
I want to know genuinely whatyou have to say in situations

(25:19):
like you know, even receivingcorrection from a board level,
like what do I need to do betterhere?
Like I genuinely respect yourvoice, but it's it's because of
the nature, your heart forpeople, but it's also because I
know that you're a man of growth.
You know, I remember one timewe were sitting down at Eaton
Park and you were like well,what's your growth plan?
I'm like what's a growth plan?

(25:39):
What are you talking about?
What's a growth plan?
You know, yeah.
And so you've, dude, you did aEOS with your family, yeah, just
recently, yeah, your family.

Doug Smith (25:46):
Before we move into that, we can.
I do want to ask you a question, because you talked about how
you know you wouldn't have saidthat you were.
Your natural strength of yourswould have been being good with
people, and then you need togrow.
I remember those conversationsearly on in our relationship,
and one I just want to celebrateyou like to see.
You know I don't think peoplehave any idea like to see where
you were in 2005 interactingwith people, and correct me if

(26:08):
I'm wrong, but I think Iremember you saying, like man,
if I preach a message, like youwould immediately jet like into
your office Because you wereafraid, not afraid, but maybe
didn't want to talk to peopleand to see how far you've come.

Zack Blair (26:20):
And actually, sometimes you forget about that
man.
Yeah, oh, you got me in thefeels there.
I forgot about that, oh, oh,it's been beautiful now, yeah oh
, and it's interesting.

Doug Smith (26:27):
Man like and again, I don't know how familiar people
are with the predictive index,but people can look at
personalities like me or Laurenand be like, wow, they must be
so good with people and I wouldsay we are to a point.
But people like you areactually more wired.
Introverted people are morewired to actually be better at
relationships, because I don't.
This sounds bad, but you'llactually take the time to listen
and go deep with people wheremore my personality Like I just

(26:50):
want to high five, everyone voteinfluence.
Now five, you want to one.
Great, but a compliment thatI've heard about you over and
over again is man, I've nevermet someone like Zach when who
makes me feel like when I'msitting across from I'm the only
person in the world, that meansthe world to me, oh man, I've
heard this at least 10 to 20times probably in the last two
years about you specifically.

(27:11):
So to Remember you and therunning to your office days to
now people are saying Zach'sprobably the best relational
leader I know.
I mean teach me like what.
I and I guess for the audience,like how have you?
You talked about learning howto ask questions, but how else
do you feel like you've grown inthat ability?
And like what have you learnedabout being great with people?

(27:31):
Because clearly you know it'sbeen exponential growth.

Zack Blair (27:35):
You know, I was overwhelmed by the amount of
people in a room right andTouching and remembering
everybody's name, and so I airon the side of going to the one
and being with them.
You, you call that outperfectly.
You know, sometimes I'll haveregret.
I'm like oh man, I didn't evensay hi to anybody else.
I just talked to so-and-so thisweek at church and we talked
before church, we talked afterchurch and I didn't even get to

(27:57):
say hi to really anybody else.

Doug Smith (27:59):
You know, and investing in that, you know, I
just want the Lord did everybody.
You're right, yeah, that'scovered anyway.

Zack Blair (28:08):
Yeah, and, and Lauren's dad, Lawrence.
So I just there was a momentwhere I realized one of the
deepest pains that I had wouldrevolved around friendship and I
wanted to just be a good friendand the Lord began to really
deal with my heart, specificallyabout, you know just how

(28:30):
important people are and howimportant relationships are and
specific, and so I Just fell inlove with the individual you
know and Fell out of love with a, with a crowd, so to speak.
Yeah, just all about the person.
I just I don't know, it's justa hard thing, and Lauren taught
me how to be, you know a littlebit better.

Doug Smith (28:48):
You know our wives dignify us in certain areas
10,000, you know yeah, and youknow you talk about deep
friendship.
So you know we haven't goneinto it yet, but I had a mental
breakdown 2020, mid-darkestseason in my life.
Didn't know if I'd ever be ableto work again.
And so who did I reach out to?
I reached out to what Iconsider like my deepest,
closest friends.
Yeah, which would be you.
You know partial area, a fewother people and literally

(29:09):
Connected with you allindividually, separately.
But you all basically said thesame thing to me, given my
personality.
You said, doug, you've beenneglecting deep friendship for a
long time.
And I was kind of like at first.
I was like, really, because mypersonality, I'm like I have
tons of friendships, like Idon't feel like community is a
lack in my life.
And I remember past your Larrysaying, like Doug, like who are
the people that don't know youas Doug Smith from light of life

(29:31):
or L3, or like man?
They just know you as Doug andlike they're literally just your
friend.
And I was like man, there'sprobably like a handful of those
.
He's like man, don't neglectthose.
And like go deep.
And I certainly have not beenperfected that, but it's
something I've been trying to goin like do you have any systems
for keeping close with IBasically just being keeping and
investing in deep friendship,because I think you're you're

(29:52):
really good at this.

Zack Blair (29:53):
The way that I, the way that I kind of frame it is,
in every season You're gonnahave three to five really close
friends, you know, and then youinvest in those relationships,
right, and everyone else likeyou can, you can connect with,
but there's three to five.
You have to have that three tofive.
You know, if I counsel somebodyand like you got to have a

(30:13):
brother, you got to have apastor and you have to have a
counselor during this, you know,during this time, if it's a
really difficult time, but likea brother and I'm talking about,
you know, not a physicalbrother, but like, but a friend
that sticks closer than abrother, you know, yeah, so I
try to.
I try to just focus on a couple, a couple relationships at a
time.
It's difficult for me to likeremember everything and try to

(30:36):
text everybody, but I do atleast once a month.
Just, I keep a log in my phoneto people I'm praying for.
You know, I keep a log in myphone of, of of friends that I
want to make sure that I followup with.
You might be going throughgrief or different things like
that and I just kind of follow.
You know, like somebody pops upon my heart and I've been
thinking about him Especiallytwo or three times.
Man, I'll shoot him a textright away.
You know, I'm like, hey, I'vebeen thinking about you and it's

(30:58):
funny, the dog, because likelately, I feel like the Lord has
really specifically beenleading me to pray for people,
and in very, in very specificmanners.
You know, and I'll let themknow about that, you know, my
friend, my friend Juan, I just Iactually prayed over a voice
text and he was like you had noclue how much that meant to me,
wow, and so like, when I'm inprayer, if somebody pops up on
my heart, I'll just put a voicemessage on and you know, and

(31:21):
just pray for him there.

Doug Smith (31:21):
I love that yeah the other thing again now, turning
this in my podcast.
The other thing, man, I wouldjust say that that I've really
admired and learned from you inthe area of relationships we're
talking about being good withpeople.
When I went through that hardtime, you, you pass your layer
and all those people, man, whenI needed you, it at least my
observation was like you guysdropped everything, whatever you

(31:43):
were doing, your agenda, and,man, you showed up like you and
Lauren showed up at our house,took care of our kids.
You and I went out, we had fun,yeah, and you dropped
everything.
And the unfortunate revelation Ihad in that I'm like man, I'm
so busy so often and I'm like ifZach would have called me and
had the same need, would have Idone the same thing?
Is a challenging question forall of us.
But from that time on and againnot been perfect with it, I've

(32:06):
really and I think you may evensay I would love to hear you
speak about this like showing upfor people when, like they need
it most.
Man, over the past two or threeyears it's been since then, I
feel like there's probably been10 to 20 opportunities where
people call me and men like theywere going through it and I
want to say I was like whatwould Zach do?
But man, that example youprovided for me, man, I showed
up and it's just like man, thatwas a divine appointment that

(32:28):
person's life that they'll neverforget.
And yeah, was I so busy?
Like what do I literally haveon my calendar?
That couldn't be cancer.
It's so important that I can'tshow up.
For anyway, I would love tohear you talk about this from a
relational standpoint.
So good it okay so.

Zack Blair (32:40):
So I do think that some of that is from
Professionally being exposed tovery difficult times with people
like my job as a pastor is tobe there for people in the best
times and worst times.
If I Define my job as anythingelse, if it's about preaching,
if it's about this, it's wrong.
It's about being there forpeople in the best times and
worst times.
So of course, I use that toinspire what community to, so

(33:01):
that community can be there forpeople in the best times and
worst times.
That's all I'm doing, right.
And so Pastor Jim taught methis principle and I just, I
just love it.
It encapsulated so many of myfeelings and learnings through
the years.
You know, going into thehospital room, being there for
people when they lost a teenager.
You know I'm gonna getemotional even thinking about
some of them.
So I gotta, you know, but wecan get tissue.

(33:23):
Yeah, we got some somewhere.
But people remember two thingswhen you're there for them, when
you're not.
When I left youth ministry Ididn't have many kids say this
message changed my life.
But I had a lot of kids whosaid you were there for me when
my dad died and I'll neverforget that.
You know you're there for me.
You came to my game.
Why did you come to my game?

(33:43):
You know all these kids.
You came to my game.
Like that is what changespeople's lives and what I
started to realize, like therewas a shift in me that I started
.
It started to take place whenwe had a.
This was like a god moment inmy life.
You know, when we started inministry, doug, you know I don't

(34:04):
know if I got it in it, for Ididn't get in for all the wrong
reasons.
There's a part of me that wascodependent.
I wanted to fix everybody'sproblems and I felt like good.
When I fix problems, you know,to me, yeah, part of that is on
health, growing up and all thatstuff.
You just figure it out.
But you know we all see themasses in our mind, right?
And I'll never forget JillWyndham praying over me and

(34:27):
saying you know, you're a fatherto many, and that I felt like
that dropped in my heart.
I'm like, no, that's who I am.
So much so that it began tochange my life.
And I was also reading a bookabout, just essentially the the
orphan spirit.
You know that we all carryabout around.
And there was a young girl inour youth ministry, there was a

(34:51):
young boy in our youth ministryand there were several others,
but those two in particular, whodidn't have a father in their
life and their lives were justin shambles.
And the Lord called me andLauren to them.
And the Lord spoke to me likeyou're them spiritually, wow.

(35:11):
And so I had to open up andreceive the love of the Father
in order to learn to be a Father, and that completely changed my
life.
Wow, yeah.
And so it became then lessabout how many people came to
the ministry and more about likeman, if one person has helped,
great, yeah, that's all thatmatters to me.

Doug Smith (35:29):
Oh, it's interesting , man, and even just talking to
people, man, and again, I'm allabout wide impact too.

Zack Blair (35:35):
Like man, let's reach as many people as possible
.

Doug Smith (35:37):
But in the little experience and I don't have this
huge wide thing, but eventalking to leaders with huge
wide impacts, it does seem likenothing.
Wide impact is not even closeto the comparison, fulfillment
wise, of deep impact.
Yes, and when leaders, even ifthey've led, you know 50,000
people, what they remember andthey talk about, you know post
career-wise, is man.

(35:58):
Here are the 12 people that Ireally poured into and look what
they're doing now and they getway more excited about the deep
impact than wide.
And I think our culture, justwe live in this culture that's
obsessed with the wide and thewide is great and again, some
people are called to it, but Ithink if we all focused a lot
more on deep, we'd make a lotbigger impact.

Zack Blair (36:12):
And we'd be a lot more fulfilled.
Is that maturity, like, is thatokay?
So if I put it this way, for meit might've been maturity.
Is it maturity, like, if I careabout the wide, am I thinking
about me?
Am I thinking about if I'mthinking about the deep, am I
thinking about them?
Like Jesus cared about themasses, the multitudes,
obviously, and then he caredabout the individuals.

(36:34):
You know, yeah, yeah, I mean Imean that's maturity.
Or if it's just to be a bothand or- yeah, on the motivation.

Doug Smith (36:39):
I mean you know I always joke, I wanna be a mega
church pastor in my twenties.
Like I'm like, oh man, if Ijust let a church like this, it
would be the greatest thing ever.
You know, this is my naturalprogression, it's the only thing
I had in my mind.
And then, like, I left thechurch world and I ended up
working in a nonprofit servingthe homeless and I had a
conversation with you.
I was having an identity crisisfor like six months Cause all

(36:59):
of a sudden, oh my gosh, how amI ever gonna have a wide impact
and reach thousands?
And it's just so funny, man,it's like you know, one of our
mentors, john News, always saidnever put a period where God
puts a comma.

Zack Blair (37:10):
And never just and then you put a period at the end
of that sentence.
I'm just kidding, pastor John,I love you.
Yes, I'm sorry, I'm justkidding.

Doug Smith (37:16):
But man, I was so focused and I put a period I'm
gonna be a mega church pastor.

Zack Blair (37:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Doug Smith (37:21):
And now I've been at the rescue mission for 13 years
which I would have neverimagined and really God
fulfilled all the desires in myheart to have that impact.
It was just interesting in away that I just never thought
possible and I think you knowyou talked about motivation,
getting into ministry Like forme, it's like whatever drew us
in great and I think I get it.

Zack Blair (37:39):
It's a good way to put it.

Doug Smith (37:40):
Yeah, as God matures us more.
You know, when Jesus in thebeginning of his ministry, he
said like come and see man, wideimpact, like see the scope of
this.
But as the disciples grew, heeventually said come and die
right.
And like require a praise andsay like man, I want you to give
your life to this.
And it was more about deepimpact.
So yeah, I don't really have ananswer, but I think as you grow
and mature, you care less andless about wide and you just

(38:00):
care more and more about man.
How am I gonna change a fewpeople's lives forever?

Zack Blair (38:05):
Yeah, this might be too deep of a question, doug.
Okay, I don't know if I've everasked you this Like do you ever
regret it all?
Do you care to regret about notbeing a pastor on staff at a
church?
Like, is there ever a momentwhere that happens?
Cause from the outside I don'tsee why you ever would, but I
also see that you could.
You know.

Doug Smith (38:22):
Yeah, this might be the period of the comma, you
think too.
So, like right now, where I'mat, I'm like what I love, and
this was just me personally, andI'll just speak to you cause I
think a lot of I think there's aproblem in the church that at
least people that get intoministry.
I think to your point onmotivation.
A lot of us could have impuremotivations when we're in our
20s.
We see people on platforms andwe aspire to that and maybe

(38:43):
that's what got us into ministry.
But, as you know, once you startgetting into ministry and
seeing what it's really allabout, or maybe you get into
ministry or you plant a churchor something and it's not
blowing up like you thought itwould like, you have to deal
with the reality that a lot ofpeople get wounded, a lot of
people get hurt by that cause.
They didn't hit theirexpectation and they leave
ministry, they leave God and allof these things, and I just
think, man, they just need tofollow.

(39:04):
I know it sounds like reallysimple, but, man, just follow
the plan that God has for youand let him write a beautiful
story and stop getting sofocused on an outcome.
So I think for me, as I movedinto nonprofit world right now,
the way I'm wired we talk abouta wide impact.
I think all I really wanted andwhen I wanted to be a major
church pastor was to help people.

(39:24):
In the way I'm wired I'm moreof a kingdom person, like big
picture, like wanna see what'sgoing on, and the interesting
thing is that light of lifewe're connected to 300 churches
in the Pittsburgh area and Ifeel like daily I get an eagle
eye view of what God is doing inthe body of Christ in every
church and for me that is sobeautiful and so I tell people
now, like man, if God wants meto be a pastor at a church or
lead a church, like I would haveto hear from him directly, like

(39:48):
the way.
But I never think like oh, I saythat's why I said the period
thing.
I'm like I wonder if I do closemyself off sometimes cause I'm
so fulfilled in the season I amin.
But I would just say there's noregret, like I just have come
really comfortable with whereGod has brought me to and really
happy with the story he'swritten, versus the story and
narrative that I wanted formyself.

Zack Blair (40:09):
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally go with what you're
saying.
Like there's a scripture wherePaul says Godliness plus
contentment is great game.
That's the only scripture Ihated.
You know, like I don't agreewith that.
You know, contentment, howcould I ever be content?
Like just more, more, more, youknow?
But like man, there's afulfillment that comes when we
can actually be present.
But there in present, over here, right now, where we are, we

(40:32):
love, where we are, we'rewaiting direction for the next
season, whatever that looks like.
If it's stay, stay.
If it's go here, go.
Whatever God does.

Doug Smith (40:39):
Yeah and I would say like I'm still super driven
Like the contentment thing, likeI'm always wanting more, which
I guess I have to guard myselffor so and I think that's good.
I would just say, on thecontentment, though, I have a
piece of my heart with where Iam.

Zack Blair (40:51):
That's exactly what it is.

Doug Smith (40:53):
And if I never get to the more that I see, I'm okay
with that.

Zack Blair (40:56):
Like I remember, that's the best way to put it
I've ever heard.
Okay, I'm not even joking, I'mthinking about it because Paul
said you know, he worked harderthan all of his brothers, so he
wasn't lazy by any means.
Nevertheless, you know notabout the grace of God in me.
So he worked hard along withthe grace of God, and so
contentment doesn't meanlaziness, and I think that I
might have, but it's contentmentis I'm good, no matter what,

(41:18):
yeah, no matter the outcome.

Doug Smith (41:19):
And like my job is.
Like you know, I quote JohnMaxx all the time, like his
definition of success, I thinkis just so beautiful.
Success in life is knowing mypurpose in life.
What did God call me to do?
It's growing to my maximumpotential.
Hey, we have a part to play.
You said Paul worked as hard ashe could, like we should do,
and work as hard as we can to dowhat God's called us to do, and
work as though it depends on us, but pray as though it depends

(41:39):
on God.
Then the last one is just soseeds the benefit others Like
just make a difference in thelives of others.
And I remember a mentor tellingme once he said Doug well,
actually, john Maxx all told himthis.
He said, doug, if God wants tomake you a name, let him do that
.
Man, that was life changing.
If God wants you to have amajor chart, let him do that.
If God wants you to have a wideimpact, let him do that.
Yeah, do it.

(42:00):
Be faithful with what he putsin your hand.
That's your only job.
Be faithful, be faithful, befaithful.
And another story that reallyhelped me and I might butcher
this, but JR Tolkien.
He's the guy who wrote Lord ofthe Rings.
He wrote an essay about a tree.
I'm not gonna remember this.
Tim Keller shares a story, butit was about a painter and he
was trying to paint thispainting of a beautiful tree his
whole life and he ended updying and the tree was only half

(42:22):
finished and when he died hewent to heaven.
And when he went to heaven, thefirst thing he saw was a
completed picture of the treeand I think for me it was just
hey, our ultimate completion isin Christ, and I don't think we
have any idea of the impactwe're actually making and how
God is using us, and I thinkwhen we try to define how God's
using us and measure it, we justmiss out on the beautiful thing
that God's created, the one daywe're gonna see and when we get

(42:44):
to heaven and hear.
Well done, my good and faithfulservant.

Zack Blair (42:47):
Yeah, yeah, so JR Tolkien, yeah, jr Tolkien, what
was that called?

Doug Smith (42:51):
Something with a tree.

Zack Blair (42:51):
This is where Something with a tree.
Okay, my details, just TimKeller Tolkien tree.
You should find it.
It's beautiful, it's hilarious.
Yeah, did you read a lot ofTimothy Keller?

Doug Smith (43:02):
I got exposed as work through the Pittsburgh
Leadership Foundation, whichyou're part of right.
What do?

Zack Blair (43:07):
you do with PLF?

Doug Smith (43:08):
We help lead, I help lead their emerging leaders
collaboratively creature.

Zack Blair (43:12):
So we have leadership collaborators.
So you're not a emerging leader, but you're leading the
emerging leaders.
I now lead the emerging leaders.

Doug Smith (43:17):
I'm in that season.

Zack Blair (43:18):
Yes.

Doug Smith (43:21):
But when I went through the collaborative it was
under different leadership andit was my first exposure to Tim
Keller and that actually reallyhelped me navigate.
The like do I regret withpastors, cause I was still kind
of in that identity regret phaseor phase of like what am I
doing?
And basically the whole premiseis just like all work is
ministry.
Like that revelation BruceBickel said ministry is not a

(43:43):
job, ministry is who you are,where you are.
That quote changed my lifeCause I realized I don't have to
be a pastor, I don't have tohave, like man, whatever God
called me to do.
That's my ministry.
Like period.

Zack Blair (43:55):
That was life changing for me.

Doug Smith (43:56):
So I would say the greatest like impact that Tim
Keller had on me was thatrevelation.

Zack Blair (44:01):
Yeah, his work on work, evan, every good endeavor.
Yeah, evan Adams did a greatpodcast with us here.

Doug Smith (44:08):
Yeah, listen to that , because Evan is brilliant he
really is.

Zack Blair (44:11):
I mean, he probably read that book in three minutes.
He knows he's like oh, I hadsome extra time, this 400 page?
You know, I have this goodfriend of mine.
How do you do that?
There's no way you.
You know he's speed reads.

Doug Smith (44:21):
Well, he's funny man he told me which is inspired.
I actually just tried this,evan, if you're watching, he's
like man.
I was the kid when I was sevenyears old.
He's like my dad and I think hewas adopted.
His dad started giving himpersonal growth books at seven
years old.
He's like I read see you withthe top, isaac Ziggler.
I read think and grow rich.
So the other day, you know Iwant to pay my kids for growth.
So I gave Livium like live,this is the 25 ways to win with

(44:43):
people.
Which on Maxwell, and shestarted reading the first
chapter and she asked me whatfive words meant.
I'm like this, I'm done.

Zack Blair (44:48):
We're not ready for this yet.
So, evan, you're just ananomaly prodigal.
He's a little different man.
It was really good though.

Doug Smith (44:54):
Like it was.

Zack Blair (44:55):
It was really good.
Have you interviewed him onyour podcast?

Doug Smith (44:57):
It's been probably 10 years, but yeah.
He was one of the earlyepisodes.

Zack Blair (45:01):
Just his understanding of kingdom and
work and how that places theglory of God.
And you know we're doing theclassical high school together.
We're starting that.
It's been really fun.
He's a really fun relationship,specifically when we talk about
like books, like that.
So, it's not people, not a lotof people want to talk about CS
Lewis.
Abolition of man is like one ofmy favorite books and I talked

(45:21):
to somebody else who was on theboard and she's like I didn't
understand a word and Evan and Iare like oh, it's so good.
It's like I don't know, maybeI'm just more wired to read
stuff like that.
This person is genius and trustme in like amazing ways too.
That's cool.
So, plf, what are you doingwith that?
You're leading emergencyemergency leader of merging

(45:42):
leader collaborative.

Doug Smith (45:45):
They have collaborative for senior leaders
and for emerging leaders.

Zack Blair (45:48):
Okay, and so then you're also with L3, you lead
the Pastor Mind group.
We call it right.
How many guys do we have inthat group?

Doug Smith (45:54):
I always say 15.

Zack Blair (45:55):
I think 12 or 13, yeah, it was, you know, maybe 15
.
It might be going up whatever,but with that, you're doing a
lot of work with leaders here inPittsburgh.
What are you noticing?
What are the trends that you'restarting to see?

Doug Smith (46:07):
I would just say, the thing I'm the most excited
about with L3 is our Pastor Mindgroup.
So and again, man, for me youhave two groups, two Pastor Mind
groups.

Zack Blair (46:17):
No, I didn't launch the second one because I have no
capacity.

Doug Smith (46:19):
But if anyone's watching this and would like to
become president and run L3, letme know Seriously.
But yeah, so for me, like unityis always really important to
me and then to his longevity,like I want the.
I remember a pastor telling methat he believes only about 2%
of Christian leaders make it totheir finish line intact and
fulfilling what God called themto do.

Zack Blair (46:39):
And like I'm like.

Doug Smith (46:40):
I have to do something to change that.
You said that to you, pastorJohn.

Zack Blair (46:42):
Yeah, I figured that was awesome, so good.
Yeah, it's true, though.

Doug Smith (46:46):
Yeah, and so for me, I'm like what can I do to unite
the body of Christ and leadersCause I feel like God's place is
special call in my life forleaders and bring these people
together and so they could befully known, loved and
challenged?
And to bring these pastors andministry leaders together and
now, two years later, hearingthem just say things, you know,
in tears, sometimes saying Ididn't know how bad I needed

(47:07):
this, and when you ask them,what did you need?
It's like so simple, it's likefriendship, and you know this
isn't necessarily all leaderslistening to this, but
leadership can be lonely, and Iremember Henry Cloud saying that
he believes there's some datapoint that 80% of executives or
CEOs don't have a single personthat they can name, that they
can confide in, and so I thinkthis is a huge epidemic.

(47:28):
I think every leader needs tobe in a mastermind group with
people in which they're fullyknown, loved and challenged, and
I think our group has been partof that.
And to see these guys cometogether, pray together, man, go
through issues together,collaborate on just kingdom
objectives for the city, it'sjust been awesome man, yeah,
yeah, and to have healthyconversations.

Zack Blair (47:49):
And I remember going into that and feeling just a
little skeptical because in thechurch world sometimes it's like
how many people you running?
You know it's like a Southernthing and I'm like, is it really
about that?
Like, if we're going to betalking about, like you know,
here's all the glory that I'mexperiencing who's going to beat
it?
You know, in the conversation,like I'm just not into that.
I'd rather develop somefriendships and learn from these

(48:10):
guys and have each other'sbacks and what's happened for me
in being a part of that group.
People will come from differentchurches a lot of times.
You know and we know this LikeI wish I would have known this
as a church planner that whensomebody comes into the church
and they're bashing anotherchurch, they're going to leave
the church the same way theyleft the prior church.
Came in talking about the otherchurch.
You know, it's just a principle.

(48:31):
You know, unless God gets aholdof them and I'm sure that that
happens, it's just.
I just haven't seen it too much, you know.
But when people come in, I'mlike, hey, that's my friend.
Yeah, we get together once amonth.
We prayed together just theother day, you know, and that's
been special, so thank you forthat gift, yeah and I think this
is so important.

Doug Smith (48:49):
you know, as I've gotten to know ministry leaders
and leaders in general, a lot ofpeople are part of
collaboratives or groups likethat nationally.
So, hey, I got friends in NewYork, I got friends in this
state, this state, this state,but locally you never see this
happening.

Zack Blair (49:02):
And so again, I think that's the whole point.

Doug Smith (49:03):
It's like people have preconceived notions.
People think they're judgingeach other.
They hear things from differentpeople.
Well, I'm like when's the lasttime you had coffee together and
so again the unity part, and ifyou're a pastor listening to
this or watching this, I reallyencourage you.
If you want to talk, like Iwould need someone to lead it,
but like you need a group likethis that can hold you
accountable, and so everyoneneeds to be.

Zack Blair (49:22):
I fully agree with that.
Are you skeptical of pastorswho don't have friends real
close by?
I would say Skeptical might bea strong word, huh.

Doug Smith (49:32):
Yeah, skeptical is probably not the wrong word.
My heart just breaks for them.

Zack Blair (49:34):
Because I know how bad they need it.

Doug Smith (49:35):
I've been a mastermind group now for 10
years and I can't imagine doingmy life a leadership.
And where do you get correctionLike, hey, where do you have a
safe place?
Yes, we pray for each otherwhen we're friends, but one of
the beautiful things, I think,is the hot seat.
So hot seat's just anopportunity to troubleshoot
issues.
So, hey guys, here's what I'mgoing through, here's an issue
I'm going through in myorganization, and then you have
12 other people who do similarthings to you that can pour into

(49:58):
you and talk to you about thatand may have wisdom and insight
that you don't Like if a leaderdoesn't have that and they're
trying to figure it out on theirown, good luck.
And again, the friendship piecelike leadership is tough.

Zack Blair (50:08):
It's so beneficial, I think, from understanding the
backgrounds of each of the guys.
Everybody has a completelydifferent background.
You know, one person grew up inBaltimore.
You know another person was allover the place like am I really
going to be in ministry?
And then all of a sudden takesover a church and is just
unbelievable, you know, doing agreat job.
Another person is just.
You know, I just respecteverybody, but everybody has

(50:30):
different backgrounds.
So when we approach a situation, they're speaking to it from
their perspective and background, where you and I had some very
specific training in ourbackground.
So we might approach somethingthe same way with Pastor Larry
and Pastor John being ourspiritual fathers.
You know, yeah, it's beenreally fun.

Doug Smith (50:46):
Yeah, having different perspectives is huge.
I remember when I came to Lightof Life, we're very diverse as
an organization and I remember Iwould just say stuff out loud.
That for me was, you know,abc's Common Sense, and people
were like, what are you talkingabout?
And like they would start tochallenge me pull me in a room,
can you?
give me an example of that no,but based on, what I want to
express to people is do you havepeople around you that think

(51:09):
differently to you, completelydifferent?
Like one of my old boss Iaffectionately by the time we
ended working together.
I called her the other side andliterally it was a joke, but it
was serious.
Like no matter what I believed,she believed the exact opposite
.
Oh, wow, and so like if I everneeded to know, like hey, you
know, here's my belief, or likethought on this, like what's the
opposite side of this man?
I had someone and we look atour culture today.

(51:31):
It's crazy.
Everyone just only talks topeople who talk like them, think
like them, look like, et cetera.
It's like man, when is the lasttime you're in a room with
people different than you thatcan challenge your positions and
actually help you grow andintellect in every other area of
your life?
Because even if you don't endup agreeing, you're going to be
better for the conversation.

Zack Blair (51:48):
Was it hard for you to receive correction?
No Younger leader, or what?

Doug Smith (51:56):
yeah, I've, it's funny.
Oh, this is one criticism of mefrom one person, but I think
it's funny, so I share it.
But he said, like I, actuallyhe's like you're probably the
only person on the planet that Icould say this to, but like
you're too teachable I'm like soyeah, I mean literally in every
one-on-one I have in everymeeting that I have, every
podcast that I do.
After this conversation I'mgonna say what.

(52:17):
Something that makes me better,but my view on that.

Zack Blair (52:20):
One I would rather lean on the teachable side than
not teachable.

Doug Smith (52:24):
I can tell you that.
But imagine if you ask that,like Laura and I have our weekly
family team meeting every week.
Hey, what are three things thatthat you saw in me as a spouse
that I do well with, that youlove Specific.
And then what's one thing thatannoyed you that I could do
better?
Imagine getting 1% better inyour marriage every single week.
Imagine being able to grow inyour profession every week.

(52:44):
And if you don't ask for it,two things like if you want
feedback and make a teachable,if you don't ask for it, I'd say
90% of the time You'll neverreceive it.
Yeah, you know blind spots.
And then you'll be blindsidedwhen people actually come to you
with feedback, because it'susually Because it's come to a
point where you're in trouble.
Yeah and then two how do youreact when people give you
feedback like all you shouldbasically say, even if you don't

(53:05):
fully agree or take all of itis thank you.

Zack Blair (53:07):
Mm-hmm.

Doug Smith (53:08):
That's it, thank you , and then take it home, chew on
it and say, okay, you know, wealways the Bible school Dr Phil
Richards always say have enoughsenses a cow, eat the sticks, or
eat the hay, spit the sticks.
So okay, hey, what do I need toapprove?
But or apply?
But if you do that every dayand in every year of your life,
like you talk about part of yourpurpose being growing to your
maximum potential.

(53:28):
I don't know a much better wayto get there.

Zack Blair (53:31):
Yeah, so I'm gonna press on you.
Yeah, press on you personally.
So like if somebody comes witha correction and they have no
relationship with you, does thatbother you?
No, that doesn't bother you atall.

Doug Smith (53:40):
No, okay, I mean, I guess, I guess it depends on
what it is Okay.

Zack Blair (53:44):
No, I certainly like take that into account.

Doug Smith (53:47):
I I heard different you said that so quick.

Zack Blair (53:50):
No, it doesn't bother me.

Doug Smith (53:50):
Okay, so that's because I'm like God spoke
through donkey's, like whycouldn't he speak through?
You know, I remember KeithMoore, who I listen to all the
time.
He was just talking aboutcorrection and you know, a
prayer that I took from him,that I literally pray almost
every day, is God, develop me asquickly and as solidly as
possible.
And if that's really my prayerand I pray that because one, I
want to grow to my maximumpotential as fast as I can, but

(54:11):
solidly.
Man, I don't want to be so fastthat I outgrow my character and
I can't sustain the growth, sopray that God's gonna answer it,
and he may not always answer inways that you want him to.
Sometimes He'll put you insituations or experiences that
you would rather not go through,but it's what's needed to
develop your character.
Other times, who have someonecall you out on something and
Out of the blue, I don't know,it's actually been funny because

(54:33):
I feel like, because I've beenteachable like this, I was just
texting, oh, I was textingsomeone yesterday and they gave
me a piece of feedback onsomething coming up and I was
like that's brilliant, thank youso much for the feedback.
And they said that's such aDoug Smith thing to say, but man
, I just feel like we would allbe better.
And if someone doesn't know me,like if I think it's a dumb
criticism, I'll probably bringit to other people who do know
me well and say, like, is thereany truth in this, or do you see

(54:55):
this like, oh value that makesa lot of sense.
I don't accept all feedback.
Okay, if that's what you'reasking yeah, so you know.

Zack Blair (55:03):
Oh, yeah, you know you.

Doug Smith (55:04):
You said I'm a horrible husband.
Okay, like you have.

Zack Blair (55:06):
No, you have no idea what goes in my four walls Like
yeah, let's ask Laura that yeahyou know.

Doug Smith (55:11):
So if it's something crazy like that, but if
someone's like hey, the way yousaid that in that meaning, or
the way you talk to that person,or when you said this, you
could have said it a differentway, or you didn't take into
account this audience, I'll eatthat up all day.

Zack Blair (55:24):
Yeah, make me better .
Yeah, okay, I think I wassaying I was thinking refer,
referring to, maybe, momentsthat you could have been in,
when somebody says you said this.
Therefore, this is what that'stelling me about you.
You need to work on thisbecause it's a hard issue.
You're like what are youtalking about?
Like that's way too deep here.
Yeah, just give me the feedbackso you create purposefully
spaces for feedback and then youevaluate it by asking other

(55:45):
people hey, what do you thinkabout this?
Is this something?
A lot of times?

Doug Smith (55:49):
If I feel like it needs to go to other people a
lot of times I'll just evaluateit internally.
I might throw by Laura, but youknow that's.
That's way more rare than thetimes I just say okay.

Zack Blair (55:59):
Here's what's going on.
I work with a leader who's notteachable in your estimation,
fire them.

Doug Smith (56:06):
I mean basically, henry cloud did this great talk
and you can.
I don't know if you have shownotes, but you can link to it.

Zack Blair (56:12):
I'm not thinking of anybody when I ask that question
, I'm just yeah, it's a goodquestion.

Doug Smith (56:16):
No, there's a.
There's a video Henry cloud todid a teaching called the good.
I think it's called like thegood.
The wise, the evil do good thewise and yeah yeah.
And it's basically like what doyou do when light comes?
Wise people when light comes,or correction or feedback, we'll
take it and basically do whatwe were just been talking about
the receive it.
I Think, oh, foolish, foolishpeople, don't Evil people,

(56:39):
they're never gonna hear it.
And that's where he saidbasically, like for the people
who are never gonna hear it, ordangerous, like you need guns,
lawyers, etc.
There are people like that.
But for the foolish, sometimesyou just have to understand,
like one, they may have neverbeen trained.
Like again, why do I receivefeedback?
Because I've listened to enoughand had a lot of Mentors in my
life tell me to do that.
So you have to determine, like,why isn't this person teachable

(57:01):
or why are they hearing it?
And sometimes it may just bethe way that you're saying it.
So a question that Henry asksin that is saying hey, what do I
need to do?
Or how do I need to communicateto you in a way that you
actually like hear this?

Zack Blair (57:15):
And they may say you can ask that question straight
up.
Yeah, that's great.

Doug Smith (57:18):
Just ask it and they may say well, like the way you
said that, or you know whenyou're going, you know, and it
could be you, to be honest.
Yeah they may not be receivingbecause you're not good at
giving it.
Yeah, and so do they know youcare for them.
Do they know you love them?
Because, yeah, I would say thatI'm rare in that case, that I
don't care about it like that asmuch.
Yes, but, most people won'tlisten to you if they don't feel
cared for and loved, etc.

Zack Blair (57:38):
So Okay so I'm just gonna apply that okay real quick
to things that I've beennoticing lately.
I do a lot of marriagecounseling and the concerns like
that concern can be viewed ascriticism from the other you
know, and so we've been teachingpeople like, say hey, this is a
concern that I have.
It's not a criticism, becausewhat I've noticed is if you
somebody grows up with a, acritical parent, you know

(58:01):
somebody who's just always lookat you know you're never good
enough.
You did this wrong, you didthis wrong.
You look at the five things youdid wrong instead of the the
one big thing they did Right.
They become then they hear thatvoice with them all their life.
So then when they get marriedthey bring that criticism into
their marriage and so nowthey're their own inward critic
and anything that you say thatcould be Interpreted as remotely

(58:23):
negative is automaticallyviewed as this person is
criticizing me, this person'stearing me down.
So I've been in in times withpeople where a husband has
raised a concern, but it is Icould see it in the wife's eyes,
or vice versa the wife hasraised a concern, I see it in
the husband's eyes, where he'staking it as a straight-up
criticism, but all she's sayingis I love you and I I see more

(58:46):
in you.
Or all he's saying is I loveyou and I see more in you.
You know, and that man that'sfantastic asking the question
how can I say this in a way thatyou can hear?

Doug Smith (58:56):
yeah, well, and in that situation, another one
that's really helpful, that weuse at light of life all the
time and having hardconversations, is, if we're
having a conversation right now,if we're having conflict or we
have an issue with each other,basically it's like a Zach,
here's my thoughts on this, orwhatever.
Can you repeat back to me whatyou heard me say?
Yes, before you respond, yeah,one, you're gonna make sure that

(59:18):
they actually listen to you,but oftentimes, like to your
point, like you, you may havethink you communicated like hey,
I just need you to grow in thisarea.
And they could be like well,I'm a terrible husband, I'm a
terrible father, I'm terrible atmy job, and you can.
And at that point, that's whenyou can correct and ask that
question of like how can I saythis in way like I didn't mean
it, oh, you're a great husband,you're great like all I really.

(59:38):
And then a great question, likein most conversations, is what
do you want?
Like, what do you want for you,what do you want for the other
person and what do you want forother parties involved?
If you can both get on the samepage about that and listen to
each other and do that back andforth.
And then they respond.
You say hey, what I heard yousay was boom boom, boom boom.
I just you'll have much betterconversations and you'll come to

(59:59):
much better solutions muchquicker.
Yeah, and if you make that ahabit, you're yeah, you'll be
going.

Zack Blair (01:00:04):
Yeah, except for life that that approach Saves me
big time.
We you helped me in a situation, approach a person that I
needed to, I needed to confrontin a healthy way, and you were
there as a mediator.
And when, when I said something, I said it wrong because I was
nervous and I didn't want themto Misinterpret and it was like
I was so nervous.
I didn't want them tomisinterpret the way that I said

(01:00:26):
it.
It came out completely wrongand you're like, hey, what did
you hear here?
And it was the exact opposite.

Doug Smith (01:00:32):
No, that's not what I meant.

No, this is what I meant.
That's brilliant, it'sabsolutely brilliant.

Well, it's your point, and again, I guess we're
on hard conversations now.
But yeah, if you, ifconversations aren't going well,
bring in a third party likebringing someone in who is good
at facilitating those things andjust Hashtag out and then, once
you see their example or learnhow to have them, then you're
you're set to have them on yourown.

Yeah, yeah.
And so are there every timewhere you're just like, okay,
I'm not gonna have a toughconversation with this person
because they are evil.
How do you tell that?

Oh, I haven't had to deal with a ton of evil.

Ask a question that I have to answer.
Well, there was an individualthat I wanted to tell.
I wanted to tell to thisperson's face that they were
demon possessed and Ben said no,you're not, you're not gonna do
, don't do that.

You have to have.
You know.
Yes, lauren as well.

I was like.
They were like what are yougonna say?
I'm gonna tell them, a demonpossess this one man.
So yeah, but yeah.

I would say, if they're even, don't even have a
conversation, right.

Well, and when it comes to, when it's comes to
garden culture within the churchand that was a context of that
conversation, you know this is.
You know mark epper said when I, when I see division, I call it
what it is.
It's demonic, you know, and sowe see that we have to protect
that.
I was very hard on thisscripture as well, like it took
me a lot, a lot of awareness,but when, when you have a
divisive person, you Warn themonce and then, after that, have

(01:01:59):
nothing to do with them, and Iwas like no way, like I want to
give people a chance, but theymade their choice to be divisive
and there that route ofdivision is gonna, is gonna bite
you.
You got to deal with thelittles, or the littles
eventually become big, you know,and if they continue that
divisive behavior, you have to,you have to, you have to deal
with that.
And so there's various ways ofdoing so.

(01:02:21):
You know, and I think eachdifferent way might, might, and
each, each different Scenariomight necessitate a different
approach.

Yeah well, that and that's with evil people, but
that's probably the majoritypeople is not their norm.
The norm is probably justgossip.
Man, you have an issue withsomeone, yeah and again.
The reason I've been able toget skilled at this is I had a
basically had a co-worker that Ididn't get along with and I
tried to get that person firedand it blew up in my face and I
was passive, aggressive, Igossiped all the time.

(01:02:49):
I let all the gossip come to meyeah and basically I was forced
Without going to the whole story, I was forced to have a hard
conversation with them firsttime I ever had to have one of
my life.
Took an hour to get through,but from that moment on I made
the commitment I'm never gonnagossip again.
Wow, and my perfect no right.
But I'm never gonna gossipagain.
If anyone comes to me, I willdo what my mentor did me and say

(01:03:09):
take out your phone right now,call Zach and say Zach, I have
to have a conversation with youand you, as a leader in your
organization, you have to nipthat about.
Like Dave Ramsey, I haven't beenthis extreme, but he has the no
gossip role.
Like you get caught gossipingtwice, you're fired.
Yeah, like there's something tothat.
When it comes to maintaining ahealthy culture, you really,
really have to keep an eye onthis and train people.

(01:03:30):
Matthew 18 just said if youhave a problem with someone, go
to them and have a conversation.
If that doesn't work, bringsomeone in.
Like we should be way moreskilled than we are as
individuals at having hardconversations.

Yeah, and sometimes it feels justifiable.
You know, if you see somebodywho's taking advantage of
somebody, you know, and you'relike, oh my goodness, I can't.
People, I can't believe peopledon't see this.
Or you know the situation likethat.
I remember there was asituation that was popping up
and it's when you're, when youhave a relational staff, when
you love each other and you'redoing life together, it's easy
to let things fly.
As a leader.
Yeah, remember the Lord dealingwith my heart.
Like, hey, pray for this.

(01:04:01):
Like this is a family memberwho's gone off the deep end.
Don't talk about this person,but pray for them.
You know, and I had toapologize to the staff and I
didn't say anything that waslike, you know, earthshattering
bad.

I just gave, I laughed you know, like this is
crazy, you know like normalconversation.

Yeah, but I had to apologize and same, you know
well, kudos you for doing a man.

And again, just on the correction part, hey, man, I
mean gods are greatestcorrector like if God prompts
you something in your heart,again it's listening to those
little corrections.
If you start to, if you wouldhave just ignored that man, that
could be the start of a path ofyou just justifying and
overlooking one thing afteranother.
And I know so.
My Encursion would just be likeif God's prompting you have a
conversation or to confess sinor whatever, yeah, don't ignore

(01:04:45):
that, because you want to talkabout correction and teach
ability and growing your life.
Like that God should be.
Someone told me said Doug, letGod be the architect of your
growth.
And if you'll do that and beopen to God's correction and
teaching, whether it's throughSpirit or people, let's go.

Yeah, yeah, so good man, that's so good, so real
quick.
I know that we've jumped around,but, Doug you, you helped me in
a season where you know you hadgone through you alluded to
this earlier.
You went through a difficulttime crisis, you know, with
mental health and you know Ithink we all go through this
time.
So I mean, it was, it was adark season for me.
You know, in 2020, you knowwe're booted out of our, our

(01:05:22):
place.
We don't know what to do.
You know the word lays thislike he lays this this meeting
house.
You know houses and we couldn'tafford to meet every week up on
the hill but like, and whowants to do that anyways?
Kids are bringing snakes in.
You know it's a true story, likesomebody's like when a kid
grabs a snake and was like look,you know, like, oh, we're that

(01:05:42):
church now.

Yeah, like that's right.

But like it was just such a tough season and thank
God for Ben coming in right atthat season too and just the
things that we had to endure,you know there was.
You know there were issues,people were upset about things.
A guy accused me of being apart of Antifa at that time
because I was praying with justfor the sake of the context of

(01:06:07):
the conversation, I was prayingwith a man with brown skin in
the city and he had a mask on.
So somebody was like I don'tknow what you're doing at that
Antifa rally.
I'm like, hey, no, no, we werejust praying, you know, and that
was.
That was what we were goingthrough.
Man, it started to break me down, though you know some things,
even personally against ourcharacter, that were not true,
and you were there for me inthose times, you know so earlier

(01:06:28):
you were talking about would Iever?
Would I be there Like dude?
You were.
You've proven that time again.
But at the end of that man, Ifelt like a shell of myself.
You know.
I felt like I just like dumpedevery, every neurological,
inspirational, chemical out ofmy brain.

You know, and I can't move.

You know, and I probably did but you gave me the
book Leading on Empty by WayneCordero.
I downed that thing.
I did not want to, I did notwant to.
At that point I just kind ofwanted to lay on a couch,
pretend, open up my mouth for awhile, you know, and watch,
binge, watch Netflix, you know.
But man, you really helped mein that time, you know.
But you went through it too.
And Leading on Empty, how didthat book really impact your

(01:07:10):
life?

Yeah, just I mean for a quick context, the fall of
2020, I started having anxietyattacks and basically what
happened with what was?
One anxiety attack led toanxiety attack every night,
which led to a season of anxietyfor an entire month, which led
to me ultimately being in ameeting for work and I remember
finishing Leading the meetingand I just said I can't do this

(01:07:33):
and I shut my screen, try to sitdown for like a half hour,
bounce back, open my computerand I couldn't even read an
email.
I couldn't respond to an emailand I'm like there's something
terribly wrong with me.
I called my executive directorand basically just said
something's wrong.
I don't know if I can work.
And then he's like, why don'tyou take two or three weeks off?
And then I started freaking out.
I'm like there's somethingwrong with me.
I don't know if I havedisability, like am I gonna be

(01:07:53):
able to take care of my family?
And the anxiety from my heartbasically went to my head and it
felt like someone was squeezingmy brain like 24 hours.
I don't know how else todescribe it.
To people, you know, I saymental breakdown.
Is that the actual scientificLike I have no idea, but
something was terribly wrong,but when you're desperate you'll
do anything necessary to gethelp.

(01:08:13):
And so, again, going back tothe teachability, I'm like,
whatever I have to do to getthrough this, I'm willing to do
it.
So I literally did everything.
I connected with a localtherapist that you connected me
with.
He was life changing.
I met with all my friends,which we talked about, the
neglecting deep friendship.
I read all the books I can.
You know you talked about leadon empty.
One of the things that helped methe most in the season was
recognizing that I wasn't theonly person on the planet that

(01:08:37):
ever experienced this and wentthrough it.
When I read Wayne Cadero Ithink it's in the first chapter
he said, hey, I had my doctorbasically tell me Wayne and
again, I don't know thescientific stuff behind this,
but he said, wayne, youbasically run off serotonin.
When your body gets depleted ofserotonin, you start running
off adrenaline, which that wasme.
Then when you stop running onadrenaline, you start having

(01:08:58):
anxiety attacks and startrunning on anxiety and if you
keep going hard against anxiety,you're eventually gonna have a
mental breakdown.
And that's where Wayne hadgotten and he walked through his
experience and the whole bookis basically what he learned and
things that he now has in placeto never go back to that.
So it was him.
I remember reading Brian Ithink it was Brian Johnson.

Yeah, Johnson, when God becomes real.
It's one of the best books, Ifeel like from a spiritual
perspective toward anxiety.

Yeah it's like, here's another spiritual giant
that went through this.
Lou Giglio had a three monthseason where he couldn't get off
the couch and he said if youwould have told me I would ever
be, he's like, when I tell youhow to get off the couch, like I
did not leave my house forthree months.
He said, if you would have toldme that I would ever preach
again, I would have told you,literally, that I had a better
chance of riding a bicycle onJupiter.
Like, literally how he felt.
I met with another pastor,mentor, and he said Doug, I

(01:09:44):
can't name a leader, friend thatI know who hasn't gone through
what you're going through Like.
And I said am I gonna be okayin tears?
And he said you're gonna beokay, you're gonna get through
this.
So knowing that I wasn't alonewas really big.
And then just dealing with alot of junk.
Like nine months prior I hadlost my sister to a heroin
overdose and working throughtherapy.
You know, as a Christian one, Ithought I grieved.

(01:10:06):
Right, like the Bible says, wedon't grieve like those without
hope.
And when I lost my mom, mymother-in-law, it made my sister
like.
I thought I grieved becauseit's like, hey, they're my
future, not in my past, like Iget it.
It's sad they're gone, but Isaw them suffer a lot and so I
thought I was fine until Iwasn't.
And my therapist said, doug,like you keep talking about
grief Like you never.
He said you can't say goodbyeto something you never said

(01:10:28):
hello to.
And he said I don't thinkyou've ever grieved any of the
losses in your life.
And he encouraged me to go toall the grave sites of all of
those I lost and basically spendtime with God and write in my
journal letters to each of them,and that was so healing for me.
I ended up getting onmedication again, doing whatever
it takes and I can continue togo down the list.
And another one was justrecognizing my negative core

(01:10:50):
beliefs that I wasn't enough,and so it was really probably,
you know, immediate.
It was probably a six monthjourney before I started feeling
like I was getting out of that,and it took about two years for
me to get off medication andkind of feel like completely
back to normal again.

Yeah, and what did you do?

you have caffeine at all, yeah, so one of the great
questions in that season wasthere's Pastor John.
He said Doug, and you have toask in every season what does
healthy look like for me in thisseason?

Okay, that's a great question, and so beautiful.

So I got off coffee, like coffee was a big thing in
my life and basically I've beenon tea since.
I had one week where I hadcoffee recently, which was cool,
but it only lasted a week.
But I've been on tea for aperiod of time.
Like I work out six to sevendays a week, pretty intense
workouts for, I think, two orthree months.
I just walked, I let myselfsleep in.
Rest has become reallyimportant to me.

So I remember taking a really nice hike with you.

Yeah, yeah.

Up in Porterville or wherever that was.
It was awesome.
We need to do that again.

Yeah, and we don't take time to, I mean, just walk.
And it's funny because I'm like, oh, I'm going to make this
part of my life now from now on.
Now I'm back into my likenormal drive, but I'm like, man,
there was so power and takingan hour and a half walk in my
neighborhood with a friend and Imissed that.
To be honest with you, I needto get back to that.

But what does?

healthy look like in this season Like great question
to ask in every season.
And if you start feeling thosewarning signs, maybe you're
having anxiety attacks.
That's when it's time to stopeverything, like don't keep
driving into that, becausethat's what ultimately led me
into the situation I was in.

Yeah, is there a difference between?
You don't have to answer this.
Is there a difference betweenlike clinical depression and
then like man?
I don't want to say I broughtthis on myself, but like I've
opened myself up to way too muchhere.

Yeah, because people ask me about this.
Like I know other people haveexperienced, like I didn't have
depression through this.

So like I, still it was anxiety.

Yeah, it was a physical.
It was a physical anxiety in myheart.
And when I say like, itphysically went to my brain, I
never was suicidal of like, oh,I can't live like.
But there were times where I'mlike, whatever is physically
going on my body, I don't knowif I can live like this forever,
like I don't.
And that's where, like mynumber one question, I'm really
vulnerable.

(01:12:54):
But like, for like three orfour months, I remember asking
you like am I going to be okay?
Is this ever?
And I didn't know, am I evergoing to get on the other side
of this?
But again, the encouragement offriends and people of saying
like, yes, you will, that wascrucial.

I remember you asking me that and I just like
from my, from the outside, Iremember thinking, yeah, man,
you're going to be totally fine.
And even asking you you got alot of scans in your body, right
?

You got everything checked and everything you're.

you're in tip-top shape, you know.
But like, did that help at all,or yes?

Cause your mind goes crazy of like, what could this
be?
Yeah, so yeah, I got MRIs on mybrain, I basically any test
that I could do.
I'm like maybe I have cancer.
Anyway, there's one so I won'tshare.
But yeah, it's scary cause it'slike man, what can I do to stop
this?
Is there something in my bodythat shouldn't be there?
So I'm all for like exploringall options, but when you find

(01:13:44):
something's wrong, it's like,okay, maybe there's something in
me and so, and again, it's likeI had to do the hard work.
Again the negative core belieflike my.
My pastor told me, pastor John.
He said, doug, like in middleschool and high school, like you
, basically watched your mom dieslowly over time and you
medicated through the painthrough drugs and alcohol.
Then you got saved, which isgreat.

(01:14:05):
But then you've been medicatingyour pain through performance
for the last 20 years.

And that hit.

And then it's like well, why am I doing that?
Well, it's because I'm tryingto prove that I'm enough, cause
I don't believe I am.
How do I deal with that?
And so I really had to wrestlethrough going back to even the
beginning of our conversationand confidence man, I had to get
to the point where it's likethere's no evidence that I'm not
enough, like I have all theevidence to the world that I'm
enough.
I just don't actually believeit.
And so I don't have to be JohnMaxwell or Dave Ramsey or Craig

(01:14:31):
Rochelle or the rock or ArnoldSchwarzenegger, like I can just
be me and I'll just share it,cause maybe it's impacted people
when I share it.
I remember calling my dad andI'm a words of affirmation guy
in the love languages Like Ijust tell me I'm awesome, I'm
good.
And I remember telling and mydad never told me he was proud
of me growing up, et cetera.
I always wanted him to, but hislove language is acts of

(01:14:51):
service.
So, he'd always open the fridgeand say, Doug, look at all the
food I got.

I'm like great, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
Same dad, yeah, same, yeah, mydad's the same.

And now, looking back, I'm like man.
My dad told me he loved me andhe's proud of me every day.
But I call him and I said, dad,you know, I don't know if I'm
going to be a work again, Idon't know if I'm going to be
able to be the developmentdirector at light of life
anymore.
And he said, doug, you know,people come up to me all the
time and they say, man, you mustbe so proud of your son.
And he said, yeah, I'm proud ofmy son, but I'd be just as
proud of him if he was cleaningtoilets, like he's my son.

And he goes, doug, I don't give us what your title
is Wow.

And dude, I lost it.

Oh, I'm like it was such healing.
And he didn't say that cause heknew like the psychology behind
it, or like it was real.

And I felt like that was just God's like icing on
the cake of like man, stopoperating out of this place of
lack and insecurity.
And you're not enough Like yeah, I love you even more than that
.
What a good man.
Oh, my dad's the best Shoot.

Well, was there a correlation between the age you
were whenever you were havingthose those anxiety attacks and
the age your mother was wheneveryou started to see her
suffering?
Was that?

I don't think so.

Also.

Yeah, I mean, when I look back on it, on like the
warning signs, one is like, yeah, I didn't take time to grieve
my sister, you know for anyonewho's lost anyone if you're a
fixture like me, or we weretalking about being codependent,
wanting to control and fixeverything, basically my sister.
I got a call at 1130 a nightfrom my dad and he basically
said Sarah's gone.
And so I basically was like Ihave to go save my dad.

(01:16:25):
So I started driving over tohis house.
I cried for 30 seconds and said, sarah, come on.
And then my dad was a mess whenI got there, took care of him,
stayed up all night, slept athis house for three nights,
planned the funeral, puttogether a message, put together
two fundraisers for my nephews,raised tons of money and, as my
executive director told me,he's like you basically just
went back to work, taking notime.

(01:16:47):
And, man, I just jumped in.
And so, man, like that, I neverstopped then.
And then just the drive.
It was the first time I was ina leadership position,
significant, leading asignificant department with high
demands, high pressure,reporting to a board.
I had just blown my first boardmeeting, which is the whole
nother story, which washilarious.
But man, I was having coldsweats every night, one, waking
up saying like my sister's gone,she's gone.

(01:17:08):
And then two was I was makingtwo pretty significant decisions
within our organization, not assignificant as I thought they
were.
But I'm like if these twodecisions are wrong light, of
life's gonna go under and it'snot gonna exist and I'm gonna be
on the front page of thepost-Cazette and it's gonna say
this is the man that took itdown Like, which is so
outrageous to think about now itwas like changing a vendor or
something like that.

(01:17:28):
Yeah, it was changing a vendorand we were rebranding our
organization, which, like again,could have been anyway.
Without going to the deals ofthat, it really wasn't that big
of a deal.
But I think you know the realityis and I remember a leader
telling me when I was youngerthat's a seasoned leader.
He said, yeah, like if I leavemy organization it burns to the
ground, like I don't care.
And he wasn't.
He didn't mean that in anunhealthy way, of course he

(01:17:48):
cares, but he was just sayingI'm not gonna let that weigh on
me and ruin me.
And so that was a change in myleadership where I basically you
know, when I got healthy likewhen I say I don't care, it's
like I'm not gonna allow theweight of any work
responsibilities I have to comehome with me and take away from
my family time to make me losesleep.
Like my father-in-law said,doug, like there's very few

(01:18:10):
things to lose sleep over, youknow, and nothing's as bad when
you go to sleep as it is like inthe middle of the night, like
when you wake up again.
That's so true.
Like just go to bed, get a goodnight's sleep and you'll be,
fine and man operating like thatthe past couple of years, like
where something else would havecrippled me in fear.
Now I just show up and saywe're gonna do our best and
forget the rest and have fun.

That's what we tell the kids all the time.
Yeah, do the best, forget therest and have fun.
I love it.
Do you have a nighttime routineso that you get proper sleep?

No, I would say I'm a pretty good sleeper.
I try to get.
Seven to eight hours is myideal, but I fall asleep like
large jokes.
We try to watch movies everySaturday night with the kids and
I usually last literally threeminutes and I'm out of cold Like
I just fall asleep reallyeasily.

Oh man, I don't know how you people do it.
I love it.
But I mean like I'm two nightsin a row five hours of sleep.
I get so tired about seven oreight o'clock at night I'm like,
oh, I'm gonna sleep goodtonight, and then like, go to
bed, can't sleep, just helloeverybody.

That's crazy.
Yeah, I hate it, and you'veexperimented and tried a bunch
of stuff.
Yeah, it works for a season.

It works for a season, you know, like if I take
I was taking magnesium, threeand eight with apigenin and
L-theanine and man that put meout.
It was great and I'd wake upthe next day not groggy, you
know cause it's not a sedativelike a benadryl or a nyquil or
something like that, so I woulddo that and it's all natural.
It's just amino acids, proteinor magnesium and amino acids.

(01:19:34):
So I was like no, this is good,this is healthy.
It worked for like two months,you know.

No one's like hey, you know.

So I have my vitamin D as well on top of that, and I
slept for another good twomonths, and now I'm back to the
pattern of five hours of sleep,and that's it.
We were also foster parents andthe kids had a very hard time,
you know so that started tointerrupt the circadian, rather
than a little bit, you know.

That's frustrating.

It's just a season, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know
they're getting so much betteras they feel safe and they feel
you know, cared for, and theyalso learned they can pull
blanket up over top of their youknow, over top of their
shoulders.
They don't need to scream for usto get that, you know.
But hey, it's an honor, youknow it's an honor to do that
for them and to teach them.
Here's how you do it, baby.
You know, like, okay, gonna goback to bed now.

(01:20:21):
But man, that's Doug.
I really appreciate yourfriendship.
You are just.
You mean so much to so manypeople.

Well, thanks man yeah.

I'm just really happy for where you are in life.
I'm proud of you.
I'm happy for you in so manyways.

Thank you, man, right back at you.

Any last words before we cut her off?

No, that's a great conversation, man.
We covered, I think, everything.
Just again grateful for yourfriendship.
This was super fun.
I mean, just given the history.
You're going back torelationships, so invest in deep
relationships.
Let's just leave it that thisis the outcome of deep
relationships we had fully known, fully loved, fully challenged,
and lots of laughs and funmemories that a lot of times we
can't share.
On this yeah, yeah.

Yes, dude, that was a blast, so thanks so much for
being with us today.
Honour man, you did great Tabletalks.

Well, leader, thank you so much for listening to my
conversation with Zach.
I hope it added value to yourlife.
Again, you can find ways toconnect with me and Zach and
links to everything that wediscussed in the show notes at
L3leadershiporg forward slash412.
And as always, leader, I liketo end every episode with a
quote, and today I'll quote JohnQuincy Adams, who said this if
your actions inspire others todream more, learn more, do more

(01:21:25):
and become more, you are aleader.
Keep leading.
Well, leaders, I say it everyepisode, but know that my wife,
laura and I love you.
We believe in you, and don'tquit, keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Doug Smith on Overcoming Mental Health Issues, Parenting, and How to be Good with People