September 19, 2023 • 41 mins
Episode Summary: In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, Joe Mull, a seasoned leadership expert with a keen eye for creating high-performing teams, shares his insightful and practical wisdom from his latest book, Employalty.
About Joe Mull: Joe Mull has spent more than 15 years teaching leaders how to be better bosses. In demand as a keynote speaker and trainer, he is the host of the popular Boss Better Now podcast and founder of the Boss Better Leadership Academy. He is the author of two previous books, Cure for the Common Leader and No More Team Drama. Joe holds a Master’s degree from Ohio University, has taught courses at the University of Pittsburgh, and previously managed training at one of the largest healthcare systems in the U.S. Joe resides near Pittsburgh, PA with his wife, three children, and a rambunctious dalmatian named Flash.
4 Key Takeaways:
1. Joe shares his thoughts on what is driving “The Great Resignation.”
2. We also delve into the changing dynamics of workplaces, emphasizing the importance of trust and flexibility in the era of remote work.
3. He emphasizes the power of personalizing work and establishing a culture of reciprocity between employers and employees.
4. We discuss how communication, vision repetition, and making a personalized difference in people's lives can exponentially improve your team's performance.
Quotes From the Episode:
“When you enact policies that lower people’s quality of life, you create flight risk.”
“Every job in one way or another either reduces suffering or imparts joy.”
Resources Mentioned:
Drive by Daniel Pink
Employalty by Joe Mull
Connect with Joe:
Website | YouTube | Instagram | Linkedin
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug Smith (00:08):
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsat Beratung Advisors.
We also recorded this episodelive from the new reiturn.
com studio.
If you're new to the podcast,welcome.
I'm so glad that you're hereand I hope that you enjoy our
(00:28):
content and become a subscriber.
I know that you can also watchall of our episodes over on our
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And, as always, if you've beenlistening to the podcast for a
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If you leave us a rating andreview on Apple Podcast or
Spotify or whatever app youlisten to podcast through, that
really does help us to grow ouraudience and reach more leaders,
so thank you in advance forthat.
(00:48):
Well, leader, in today'sepisode, you'll hear my
conversation with Joe Maul.
If you're unfamiliar with Joe,let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Joe has spent thousands ofhours shaping managers into
strong leaders, with his decadesof experience, his compelling
content and dynamic delivery Indemand.
As a speaker and trainer, joehas attracted audiences of all
sizes from all sectors from allover North America.
(01:09):
Prior to launching his own firm, john was the head of learning
and development for a top 10 UShealthcare organization, where
he managed training for morethan 9,000 employees at over 500
locations.
Joe's written three books Curefor the Common Leader, no More
Team Drama.
And his most recent Employalty,which is the focus of our
conversation today, and you'llhear Joe talk all about a
(01:30):
leader's role in creating greatworkplaces and attracting
training and retainingworld-class employees in today's
job market, which I can't thinkof a more relevant topic for
leaders right now.
I think you're going to get aton out of this.
Before we dive in, just a fewannouncements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
(01:51):
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BaratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by
visiting their website atbaratungadvisorscom.
That'sB-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom.
Securities and investmentproducts and services offered
through LPL Financial.
Member of FINRA and SIPC,Beratung Advisors, lpl Financial
(02:14):
and L3 Leadership are separateentities.
I also want to thank our sponsor, Henne Jewelers.
They were jewelry earned by myfriend and mentor, John Henne.
My wife Lara and I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henne Jewelers and hadan incredible experience.
Not only do they have greatjewelry, but they also invest in
people.
In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
a book to help them prepare formarriage.
We just love that.
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If you're in need of a goodjeweler, check out
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I also want to thank our newsponsor, reiturn.
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Now, for as little as $500, youcan become a commercial real
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Investing involves risk.
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With all that being said, let'sdive right in.
Here's my conversation with JoeMull.
Hey, Joe Mull, welcome to theL3 Leadership Podcast.
It's an honor to have you here.
Why don't we just start up withyou just giving us a little bit
about your background and whatyou do?
Joe Mull (03:17):
Well, thanks for having me, Doug.
I'm super excited to be herewith you.
I know that our conversationtoday is going to be a lot of
fun, because I think we'repassionate about a lot of the
same things.
I am 46 years old and I'vespent the better part of the
last 20 years teaching leadershow to be better bosses and how
to create the conditions at workfor people to thrive.
I was previously the head oflearning and development for a
(03:41):
large healthcare system and then, about 10 years ago, went out
on my own and built a boutiquetraining and development firm.
Most of my work now is aboutspeaking and writing and
training.
I'm one of those people thatnerds out around the social
science research, for what makespeople tick at work and how do
you get people to care, and whatrole do leaders play in that?
Doug Smith (04:03):
This is obviously always an important topic, but I
think in a post-COVID world,you have the great resignation.
I'm being told that it's beenfollowed by the great regret.
We have leaders everywhere whohave lost great people.
They're trying to rebuild theirteams.
They're trying to figure outflexibility in the workplace.
Do we do remote?
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
(04:24):
Just to tee it up, you recentlywrote a book.
You've wrote several which Iwant to dive into, but your most
recent book is calledEmployalty.
Why don't you just set thestage of why you wrote this and
what you want leaders to get outof it, before we dive into the
specifics?
Joe Mull (04:38):
Sure, I ended up writing Employalty because I was
getting frustrated by thenational conversation that was
taking place around the greatresignation, that it was
triggered by COVID, that it'sall about money.
Neither of those things aretrue.
We know, for example, that whatwe're calling the great
resignation actually started in2010, in that every year since
(05:00):
2010, the number of people whovoluntarily changed jobs has
increased.
We also know that it's beingdriven not by work ethic the
issues that nobody wants to workanymore and people just got
lazier.
It's being driven by peoplepursuing quality of life after
years of being overworked andunderpaid and burned out.
(05:20):
When I decided to write thisbook, it was really about
helping business owners andleaders understand what they
need to get right in order forpeople to join an organization,
stay long term and then give itall.
They've got to do great work.
The word we're playing a littletrick on the reader.
You hear the word and you thinkit means employee loyalty, but
(05:43):
the definition of employee it'sa portmanteau of the words
employer loyalty and humanity.
We know that when employerscreate a more humane employee
experience, that's actually whatactivates commitment at work.
Doug Smith (05:55):
Yeah, let's talk about what you found in the book
.
What are people looking for?
Leadership podcast.
You're speaking to leaders whoare constantly thinking this
through what can we do toactually attract, recruit,
retain all the above qualityemployees?
Joe Mull (06:11):
Yeah, we analyze more than 200 research studies and
articles on why people quit ajob, what attracts them to take
a new job or why they stay longterm in an organization.
We focused quite heavily on alot of this research.
Since COVID has arrived on ourshores, we can say with
conviction that it becomes mucheasier to find and keep people
(06:34):
at work if you're winning inthree specific areas of the
employee experience.
We call them ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
Now, there are dimensions toeach of these and I'm going to
rattle them off.
Ideal job is really aboutcompensation, workload and
flexibility.
If my money is right, if myworkload is manageable and I get
(06:56):
a little bit of flexibilityaround when, where and how I
work, that job fits into my lifelike a puzzle piece snapping
into place.
It becomes an ideal job.
Meaningful work is aboutpurpose, strengths and belonging
.
If I believe my work matters,if it aligns with my talents and
gifts and I'm a part of a teamwhere I'm accepted and
celebrated, I want to do greatwork, that work becomes
(07:18):
meaningful.
And then that great boss factorhas three dimensions to it
trust, coaching and advocacy.
If my direct supervisor grantstrust and earns trust, if he or
she coaches me regularly andthen they act as an advocate for
me, they act in my bestinterests, I've got a great boss
and when those three factorshit, you check all of these
(07:40):
boxes on this kind of internalpsychological scorecard that
people have that leads them towant to be a part of an
organization.
Doug Smith (07:47):
Wow, so I want to dive into each of those a little
bit.
On ideal job, I'm curious.
You mentioned flexibility andworkload and what you're seeing
through the research and talkingwith leaders.
What are you seeing?
What kind of workplaces do weneed to create in order to
attract and actually retaintalent?
Do we need to provide unlimitedvacation?
(08:07):
Do?
We need to do four-day workweeks?
Do we need to let everyone workfrom home remotely all the time
?
What are you seeing that'sworking?
Joe Mull (08:13):
What's working is when you improve people's quality of
life, and it's gonna bedifferent from person to person.
So I'm 46 years old.
When I was 26 years old, what Icared most about was growing my
financial compensation right.
I had a ton of college debt andI was trying to buy a house and
do all those things that you doin your 20s, but those aren't
the things that are as importantto me anymore At 46,.
(08:36):
What's important to me is hey,there are two days a week when I
need to be at home to get myyoung kids off the bus because
of my wife's work schedule, sosome flexibility is more
important to me.
So where we see organizationsfinding success is where they're
creating a host of innovationsaround quality of life
enhancements, and yes, in someplaces that's four-day work
weeks, and yes, that's flexiblework policies, remote work
(08:57):
policies, better compensation,increased benefits.
Vacation is absolutely a partof this, because we know that
our workloads have exploded inrecent years.
Across the board, though, andwhen you talk to folks about why
are you interested in changingjobs or why did you leave that
organization, the answers thatcome out they all sound
different.
Doug People will say I leftbecause I need better pay or a
(09:19):
less toxic work environment, ormore opportunities for growth,
or a better schedule or a bettercommute, but all of those ideas
actually roll up to one biggeridea, which is improved quality
of life.
Doug Smith (09:31):
You talked about the seasons of life.
I think this is so interesting,from my understanding where
we're, in the first time inhistory, we have five
generations in the workplace and, as you were alluding to, every
one of those generations havedifferent needs and the seasons
that they're in.
I'm in a similar season.
You have four kids under seven.
I mean it's insanity.
Joe Mull (09:50):
I have three.
We're both tired a lot.
That's what that means, yeah.
Doug Smith (09:53):
That's right.
That's right, but can you talkabout fairness?
Because it's like theflexibility that I need in my
stage.
Same thing you said when I wasin my twenties.
I had no problem putting in 10,12 hour days, going all in.
I can't do that in this currentseason and sadly, one day my
kids will grow up and go out ofthe house and I'll have all the
time I need to be able to go allin with work again or whatever
(10:15):
I choose to do.
How do you communicate fairnessin the workplace, or at least
communicate?
I guess you have to providedifferent flexibility for
different seasons and how do youcommunicate that so the whole
workplace feels like everyone'skind of on the same team, rowing
in the same direction, and hasthe same flexibility?
Joe Mull (10:31):
Yeah, it reminds me of this very interesting
conversation that was takingplace at a couple of the big
tech companies during the firstyear of COVID in 2020, where a
lot of employees were gettingwho had kids at home because
they couldn't attend school inperson anymore.
Non-parents were feeling likethat.
We were catering to the parentsand really being flexible for
(10:55):
them, but then, for employeeswho didn't have kids, we heard
bosses saying, yeah, but youdon't have kids.
So, like, what's the big deal?
We need you to show updifferently, and so it is a
fairness question in the waythat you talk about there.
What we do know, though, is that, for most people in the
workplace, from an HRperspective, we have an
obligation to give everyoneaccess to the same set of
(11:18):
benefits and opportunitiesacross the board, so if you're
offering a four day work week,you're offering a certain kind
of schedule or flexible workoption.
You really do need to offer itto everybody, regardless of
their station or status in life.
At the same time, though, weknow, for example, research
tells us clearly that jobcrafting, where you actually
tailor certain aspects of aperson's positions to their
(11:41):
strengths and to their schedule,enhances commitment.
You can still do those kinds ofthings at an individual level,
while still being equitablearound certain kinds of benefits
and policies and procedures.
So I guess that's the way inwhich I would differentiate it.
It would be what are theopportunities and options that
are offered to everybody versus?
(12:02):
How am I engineering a positionthat really allows for the
unique skills and gifts of theperson in that position to be
leveraged and to be utilized?
Doug Smith (12:13):
Yeah, also under the umbrella of flexibility, you
have remote work coming back tothe office.
So right, this is the bigdebate now.
From what I'm saying, largeorganizations are now bringing
everyone back into the office.
What are you saying?
Because the question, I think,is can you develop the kind of
culture that you want withinyour organization, with everyone
(12:33):
working remote full time, or dopeople actually need to be in
person?
Is it more of a trust issuearound performance, and what do
you suggest for leaders?
Just out of your experience?
Joe Mull (12:43):
Yeah, there's a lot going on around the work from
home and the return to workquestion right now, right, so a
couple of things.
First, I'm very much a centriston remote work.
If that's a thing, we haveproven that there are a whole
host of roles that can be donewell from home most of the time.
(13:04):
We also know there are somethings that you get by gathering
and working together in personthat you can't duplicate
creativity, innovation,camaraderie, et cetera.
All of these go a long way towork culture, to how we serve
clients, and so it's not out ofbounds for an employer to want
people to gather so that theycan get those benefits.
(13:26):
What I think is important inthis day and age is that
employees and leaders areco-creating their work from home
policies together.
I think employers need to havean eye on creating policies that
do not lower quality of lifefor people.
So I have a couple of friendswho were just posting online
about this this week, about how,after two years, their employer
(13:47):
has moved their office buildinginto a downtown setting and are
mandating that their employeesnow come back full time and
they're posting.
My costs for community justwent up parking gas.
I'm gonna spend an hour in thecar, each way, every day.
This is an absolute disruptionthat I'm not gonna tolerate, and
when you enact policies thatlower people's quality of life,
(14:10):
you create a flight risk, and soreally it's about that dialogue
together.
What I challenge employers tothink about is that most of the
time, work from home policiesare really about trust.
In this day and age, we'reseeing so many employers who are
trying to create really complexmonitoring systems and check-in
processes because they believethat if left to their own
(14:32):
devices, employees working fromhome aren't gonna try as hard or
care as much.
They're gonna watch Netflix anddo laundry all day, and it just
doesn't prove to be true mostof the time, and so these
employers are imposing thesecomplex systems onto a group of
largely ethical people out offear of the rare bad apple right
(14:52):
, and it sends a really powerfulmessage to employees, which is
that we don't trust you.
It also slows down their workand it lowers their quality of
life, and so those kinds ofapproaches to work from home
don't do any good.
One more point, because I knowI've been going for a little
while around this.
I love it.
The work from home piece that Ithink is most important is
really tied to flexibility.
(15:15):
Flexibility is about givingpeople some influence over when,
where and how they work.
And what we know is if you givepeople just a little bit of
flexibility, a little bit ofcontrol, a little bit of say in
some aspect of their workarrangement, it super charges
commitment, and work from homeis just one kind of flexibility.
Right, maybe we're just talkingabout giving people some
(15:37):
influence over where their shiftstarts or when it starts, or
who they work with, or how longit is or what days of the week
they work.
When you can give some of thatpower back to people, you create
more loyalty in yourorganization.
Doug Smith (15:52):
Yeah, that's so good .
I love.
I love how you just saidleaders should work with.
Hey, here's a novel thought askyour employees for input before
you create a policy, see howthey're thinking and feeling.
I am curious.
I mentioned the great.
What is the great?
Resignation, and then it'sfollowed by the great regret.
Joe Mull (16:07):
Right.
Doug Smith (16:08):
You know you mentioned employees who now they
do have to come back to theoffice and they're saying, hey,
I will discuss, et cetera.
Are you seeing that and do youhave any advice for people who
may be listening to this andsaying, yeah, I feel like I need
more flexibility than you knowI had.
I don't like the direction thecompany's going.
I want to leave.
What advice do you have sopeople don't have great regret
in transitioning?
Joe Mull (16:28):
Right.
So, yes, I've seen a lot of thesort of the great regret, and I
think it's being driven in alot of ways by unkept promises
from employers.
So, in the last couple of years, as workers sought more quality
of life and as a caveat here,doug, I have actually referred
to the great resignation as thegreat upgrade, because that's
(16:50):
really what's happening in thelabor market.
People aren't resigning,they're switching jobs, and when
they switch job, they'repursuing those upgrades to
quality of life that we talkedabout, and we have all kinds of
jobs.
Data that tells us this is thecase, and I think this is a
really important distinction tomake for leaders and employers.
People aren't deciding not towork.
There's not an invisible massof people who are sitting on the
(17:11):
sidelines.
All of a sudden, we have morejobs in our economy than we have
people to fill them, and sothere's opportunity now and
people are seeking upgrades toquality of life, and so it's
been the great upgrade where wesee employees leaving these new
jobs quickly or evenboomeranging back to employers
that they left in the firstplace.
It's often driven by unkeptpromises.
(17:32):
They were told yes, you'regonna get flexibility.
Yes, you're gonna be able towork from home a lot.
Yes, we've got great bosses.
Yes, we're gonna invest in yourprofessional development.
Yes, we're gonna keep pushingyour wages higher and higher.
And then they get there and thepromises that were made weren't
kept.
And, yeah, in some cases,people end up finding that the
grass isn't always greener onthe other side and they go back
(17:54):
to other places they were atbefore or they go looking for
another upgrade in some way.
My advice for employers is keepyour promises and really think
about those quality of lifeenhancements and recognize that
you have to choose an identityright now.
Are you a departureorganization or are you a
destination workplace?
And if you wanna be adestination workplace, you have
(18:15):
to understand those dimensionsof ideal job and meaningful work
and great boss that we justtalked about For employees who
may be in roles that they'reunhappy about.
Right, we've all maybe had theexperience where we weren't in
love with a job, but we didn'tnecessarily know the reason why.
I would argue that you couldbang your experience up against
that same framework of ideal job, meaningful work, great boss
(18:38):
and the dimensions that we justtalked about a few minutes ago
to say, all right, which ofthese am I getting and which of
these am I not getting?
And for the ones that I'm notgetting, does it turn out that
maybe those are even moreimportant to me than I realized.
And now how do I go seek thoseout?
In another part of my company,or maybe another role altogether
?
Doug Smith (18:58):
Yeah, I wanna transition and talk about the
great boss factor, because thisis a leadership podcast, and I'm
sure every leader listening tothis has heard the phrase people
don't leave companies, theyleave people, which historically
, I would say, at least in myexperience, has been true.
One just.
You have three things that youmentioned under what a great
boss looks like, but we'reresponsible as leaders for
(19:20):
ensuring the way of greatorganizations.
What does a great boss looklike and how can leaders
identify whether or not theyhave good ones?
Joe Mull (19:26):
Yeah.
So we all know that there areliterally dozens of things that
a leader needs to do rightconsistently for someone to
point to them and say, man, I'vegot a great boss.
And we also know that, even ifwe get all of those things right
, it's still a really fragilerelationship and it can be
fleeting at times.
Right, you could take years tobuild up that great boss
(19:47):
employee relationship and youcan significantly damage it in
one or two bad decisions, right?
And so as we looked at whatleaders need to do well,
consistently in order for thatdirect supervisor relationship
to work, we kept coming back tothese three ideas of trust,
coaching and advocacy.
(20:07):
So trust is a two-way street,right, I have to grant trust and
I have to earn trust.
And I grant trust specificallyby giving people the freedom to
get to their work product theirway, which may not always be my
way.
It's trusting other people'sinsights, their ideas, being
willing to let them try newthings, being willing to let
(20:28):
them fail, because, as a boss,when we don't grant trust, we
end up becoming a micromanager,and we know that's a
soul-crushingly awful experiencefor people who have somebody
right over their shoulder.
Earning trust is about beingcompetent and being present and
sharing credit and acceptingblame and doing many of the
things that we talk consistentlyabout that are sort of flagship
(20:50):
behaviors for leaders in thisday and age.
So that trust factor is sort ofa secret sauce in the boss
piece.
The coaching dimension is reallyabout a specific kind of
conversation that we're havingwith employees consistently.
Too often when we talk aboutcoaching we think it's about
giving advice or we picturesomebody with a whistle around
(21:12):
their neck standing on thesideline at a football game.
But in terms of leadershipthat's not what we mean when we
say coaching.
Coaching is a very specifickind of conversation.
It's asking people open-endedquestions in the right order to
create self-actualization, tomine them for their insights and
the creativity and theirpotential solutions.
And so when I have a supervisorwho coaches me, who invites me
(21:38):
to share my thoughts andopinions, who challenges me, who
uses it as a developmental toolto not just give me answers
when I ask questions but to say,well, what options do you see,
that leadership behavior, thatleadership skill of coaching is
one of the most powerfulinfluences of employee
engagement, as it shows up inthe research.
(21:58):
And then that third dimension ofadvocacy if you think about
what an advocate does.
It's someone who acts in mybest interests.
So, as a boss, do I care notjust about the tasks and duties
of someone's job and whetherthey're complete or done well?
Do I care about that personoutside of work?
Do I advocate not just for whatthey need to get at work to be
(22:18):
successful, but do I care abouttheir long-term career prospects
?
At the very least, do I know alittle something about their
story?
Am I connecting with them andtheir humanity in a human way
and not just treating them as acommodity at work?
All of those things bake intothe pie to produce a great boss.
Doug Smith (22:38):
Yeah, so if those are the things that make up a
great boss is the leaders of theorganization were responsible
for actually training up andraising up great bosses.
I'm curious from an HRperspective and from a
leadership perspective From thetop of the organization.
What are best practices thatyou would say when it comes to
onboarding, training andequipping the leaders within our
organization to actually begreat bosses?
Joe Mull (22:59):
Yeah, so there are.
There are two big ideas thatresearch tells us consistently
influence the performance ofleaders and then, downstream,
influence the engagement oftheir teams.
And a lot of this research hasbeen driven by Gallup in recent
years.
They found consistently inorganizations with the highest
performing levels of employeeengagement.
(23:20):
So you've got low turnover and,right, higher retention.
You've got people who say thisis a great place to work, people
who who part with what iscalled discretionary effort,
right, that space between doingthe minimum and giving it all.
They've got in organizationswhere we see that consistently,
we see managers have twocharacteristics in common.
(23:41):
The first is that they are apart of a peer group of managers
where they regularly get tomeet and discuss and share help
and information.
The second is that theydemonstrate an ongoing
commitment to professionaldevelopment.
And so this is reallyinteresting to me from a
leadership developmentperspective, because sometimes
we think, as as employers or ascompanies, that we need to
(24:04):
create really sophisticatedleadership development programs,
and maybe we don't.
Maybe all we really need to dois make sure that leaders get
some time to confer with otherpeer leaders and to talk to each
other about the challenges ofbeing a leader, and maybe the
other thing we just need to dois make sure that we are helping
(24:27):
these leaders engage in anongoing commitment to
professional development.
So it's so making sure they canattend conferences, making sure
that they occasionally can canread a book about leadership or
listen to a podcast like thisone.
Right, just making time andspace for leaders to talk about
what it means to be a leader andto help each other do it well
Turns out that's maybe the mosteffective way to do it.
(24:49):
Maybe those are the bestpractices.
Doug Smith (24:51):
That's so good.
I wanted to have a little bitmore into being a great boss and
creating a great culture.
You wrote another book.
I just think this ties intogreat bosses and the book is
called no more team dramaeliminating the gossip, clicks
and other crap that damages team.
First of all, unbelievable booktitle, thank you, but I'm super
passionate about this.
So gossip is rampant in ourworld.
(25:13):
It's crazy.
It does damage teams, itdamages organizations.
How can, how can leaders dosome of the things you mentioned
eliminating gossip and clicksbecause if they don't do that,
we're never going to thrive andhave a flourishing culture, in
my opinion.
Joe Mull (25:26):
Yeah, it's funny, this book was born out of work that
I've been doing for yearstraveling into organizations,
doing, you know, like full daylong leadership masterclasses,
and coming back a couple timesand working with frontline and
mid level managers about what doyou, what are you struggling
with the most, what are the thebiggest people management
challenges you face?
And consistently, we would getback all of these ideas about
(25:48):
well, we can't just people justdon't play well together in the
sandbox sometimes.
And how do we like, what do Ido?
What kind of conversations do Ihave?
How do I fix that?
And so we decided, all right,like why do some teams become
high performing, close knit, nodrama work groups, while others
just get mired in debate anddysfunction and drama?
And so we started doing a lotof again research.
(26:11):
I kind of talked about nerdingout around the social science
I'm really interested in where,what, what leads to clicks, what
leads to gossip, what are thetriggers, what are the
environmental factors, what arethe beliefs, what are the
cognitive biases.
And so we married all of thattogether into this book and what
we found is that most of thetime, team drama comes from
(26:34):
people more favorably judgingthemselves and we're harshly
judging others because of someshortcuts our brains take and
the stories they make up aboutwhy people do what they do.
And so the book really arguesthat there are four things teams
have to work on together inorder to cut down on us more
favorably judging ourselves andmore harshly judging others, and
(26:55):
we call them courtesy,camaraderie, conflict and cause.
Now you can tell, doug, becauseyou just asked me about the
other book, that we likeframeworks, right we?
When we we talk about thisstuff, we like to try to
translate some of these complexideas into simple concepts,
right?
So courtesy is about the qualityof interactions that people
have.
What are the expectations forhow we talk to and treat each
(27:17):
other?
Camaraderie is about givingpeople a chance to form
sophisticated relationships witheach other and to access each
other's humanity, because, itturns out, we judge each other
less harshly when we know somethings about each other.
We find things in common witheach other that don't have
anything to do with work.
Conflict is about teachingpeople how to avoid unhealthy
(27:37):
patterns of conflict.
We write in the book aboutsomething called drama triangles
, right, where if I'm upset withsomebody else, I actually end
up going to a third party first.
Right when you're frustratedwith somebody, you got to go
(28:01):
talk to that person first, andthen cause is really about our
mission and our purpose.
Right when we, when everybodyis rowing in the same direction
and when you identify a missionthat is so powerful and worthy
of people's attention that itcuts down on the high school BS
and noise, that kind of creepsinto work sometimes.
So those four things courtesy,camaraderie, conflict and cause
(28:23):
are sort of the recipe for a lowdrama work team.
Doug Smith (28:27):
I love these frameworks as we start to wrap
on the conversation aroundemployer employee.
The third bucket that youtalked about was just meaningful
work.
Yeah, and I think this is huge.
Now I work at a rescue mission.
We serve the homeless.
Everyone's like, wow, there'sso much meaning behind your work
.
I wish I had meaning in my work.
How, how do we help people findmeaning and significance?
(28:51):
And what they do in the day today?
Because all of our jobs, nomatter what the purpose of the
organization.
Joe Mull (28:56):
Yeah, have mundane parts of them.
Yeah, I do a lot of work athealthcare and it's easy to get
romantic about healthcare.
To right, we're saving lives,we're curing the sick and there
are a lot of professions whereyou can point to the difference
your work makes in the lives ofothers, right, quick.
But there are other jobs wheremaybe that's harder to do.
I've had a lot of conversationswith people who work in call
centers and collections andthings of that nature.
(29:18):
I think every job in one way oranother, either reduces
suffering or imparts joy or insome form or fashion makes a
difference to somebody in apositive way.
I think we as leaders, if wecan shine a light on that and
become better storytellers, wecan actually help people find
(29:39):
that purpose and that meaningmore easily.
I always give the example ofthe ticket taker at the movie
theater.
Right, this is, this is mydream.
Backup job dog.
If I just get tired of thinkingat work, I might just go tear
tickets at the movie theaterbecause it feel like it's not
that hard, right, you just tearthe ticket on your left, on your
right, there's the restroom,thanks for coming.
But if I ran a movie theaterand I had, you know, high school
(30:03):
kids working for me tear intickets.
I wouldn't want them there justlike slouching and thinking
that their word work wasmeaningless.
I would want them to believethat that doing that really
matters, and not just because wedon't want people stealing free
movies.
And so I probably do somethinglike this.
If I hired a high school kid, Iwould say, hey, you're tearing
ticket to the movie theater, andI know that probably feels
meaningless, but it's really not.
(30:24):
Who do you know who has beenmarried the longest?
And we'd probably hear maybeabout their grandparents or an
aunt and uncle, or maybe theirown parents.
And I would say I want you togo ask them to tell you about
their first date, and I want youto come back and tell me about
it.
And when this kid came back andtold me about it, I would
probably get a lot of detailright and I would probably say
(30:46):
something like isn't itremarkable that they remember in
such detail a night thathappened like 40 years ago?
Isn't that remarkable?
Hey, guess what?
The people walking past youevery day that you're tearing
tickets might be that couple.
They might be on their firstdate and we get to be a part of
that, and isn't that amazing?
(31:07):
And then, doug, I'd say now, doyou know anybody who has kids,
say, under the age of three?
And if they do, maybe it's aneighbor, maybe it's a cousin.
Okay, I want you to call themup and I want you to ask them
what would it take for you to goto the movies tomorrow?
And I want you to figure outall the things that they would
(31:27):
have to get into place, to getout of the house without the
kids to go see a movie.
Right, you said you got fourkids, I got three.
If I want, if I wipe and I wantto go see a movie, right, we're
out 50, 60 bucks for ababysitter before we pull out on
a driveway right, yep, yeah,I'm with you.
And so then I would have thatkid come back and tell me.
I would say every day you'retearing tickets, you've got
people walking past you who hadto move heaven and earth just to
(31:50):
be there, and so let's makethis nice special for them.
So you see what I'm doing right, I'm connecting.
Doug Smith (31:55):
I'm ready to go work for you at the movie.
Joe Mull (31:59):
The difference that we make in the lives of others and
making it personal and makingit emotional.
Doug Smith (32:04):
This is huge.
I mean you just made itemotional for me my wife and I's
first date at a movie.
We saw Lord of the Rings 2, Ithink in like 2002.
Joe Mull (32:10):
That's a good one.
Doug Smith (32:12):
And yeah, date nights.
We just saw Mission Impossible700, whatever.
Joe Mull (32:16):
Right.
Doug Smith (32:17):
But hey plug for the movie.
It was incredible.
But I mean that's so good.
And, as leaders, our job is tocommunicate vision and repeat
and repeat, and repeat, andrepeat and repeat, and I think
sharing stories like you justshared, that's our job.
And so leaders communicatevision, keep saying the same
thing.
I have a friend that alwaystells me repetition leads to
retention, which is so good.
Joe Mull (32:36):
And personalizing it, because that's what we just did.
Sometimes, when we talk about,here's the difference we make in
the lives of other.
We cure the sick and we feedthe homeless, and that's true.
But when you can bring thatdown from the many to the one we
made a difference in James'slife, or we made a difference in
this couple's life it becomeseven more powerful.
Doug Smith (32:55):
Yeah Well, Joe, we've spent a lot of time
talking about the employers, theleaders of the organization and
what they need to do.
I just want to give you freereign and I'll just leave this
really, really open ended toemployees.
We have young leaders listeningto this who want to grow and
develop.
They want to be leaders one day.
They want to advance, they wantto do well.
What advice do you have foremployees and future leaders?
(33:17):
What do they need to do inorder to thrive in today's
workplace?
Joe Mull (33:24):
If you want your employer to be devoted to you,
then we have to show up devotedto them, we have to care about
their mission, we do have tocare about their bottom line, we
do have to care about thequality of the interactions that
we have with clients, withcustomers.
And so showing up at work andjust going through the motions
isn't going to get us very farand it's not going to motivate
(33:46):
our employers to create a betteremployee experience.
What we wrote about in this book, employalty is really about
reciprocity.
Commitment is a two-way street.
I'm banging the table on allkinds of media really employing
employers to treat people morehumanely at work, to stop
(34:07):
treating employees like acommodity, to teach leaders how
to show up in such a way thatthey care not just about who the
person is at work but that theycare about their life outside
of work as well.
And we need to return thatcommitment with a commitment of
our own to join an organization,to give that organization a
chance to teach us and then tobring our whole selves to that
(34:30):
work and to care about thequality of our work.
When that commitment truly is atwo-way street, you end up
having an ideal job, doingmeaningful work for a great boss
.
In general, we know that peoplegenerally do a great job when
they believe they have a greatjob, and so if you see an
employer who's trying to createa great job for you, do what you
(34:50):
can to do a great job for them.
Doug Smith (34:53):
So good, Joe, it's time we have left.
I want to dive into thelightning round.
A bunch of fun questions I askin every interview.
Joe Mull (34:58):
All right.
Doug Smith (34:58):
And the first one is what is the best advice you've
ever received and who gave it toyou?
Joe Mull (35:03):
Can I swear?
Doug Smith (35:06):
We'll keep it out.
Joe Mull (35:08):
PG-13.
One of the first pieces ofadvice that I got after grad
school in my first job from thiscrotchety old guy who had been
a leader for about 100 years wasdon't wear you eat.
And he talked about for yearswatching young graduates go to
conferences and get drunk and dostupid things and they're
professional networks and thatalways resonated with me right
(35:29):
From a professional level don'tbleep where you eat.
Doug Smith (35:35):
If you could put a quote on a billboard for
everyone to read, what would itsay?
Joe Mull (35:39):
If I could put a quote on a billboard for everyone to
read, I would probably be what Ijust said.
People generally do a great jobwhen they believe they have a
great job.
Doug Smith (35:52):
What books, either all time or recently, have you
read that have made the greatestimpact on your life?
Joe Mull (35:57):
Well, my favorite leadership book since that's the
theme of this podcast is DanielPink's book Drive the
Surprising Truth About whatMotivates Us.
He just writes so brilliantlyabout a lot of that social
science research on intrinsicmotivation, and I think it
should be required reading forleaders at all levels.
Doug Smith (36:14):
You've done a lot of research.
You've spent time with a lot ofleaders and organizations.
I'm curious when you get tospend time with a great leader
that you look up to or admire,do you have a go-to question
that you always ask when you gettime with them?
Joe Mull (36:25):
I ask for scripts and turns of phrase.
What scripts or turns of phrasehave you found have had the
biggest impact on your work?
If you have to have a difficultconversation with somebody, how
do you say what you want to say?
Learn a lot of reallyinteresting approaches with that
one.
Doug Smith (36:40):
What is it scripts and what.
Joe Mull (36:41):
Turns of phrase.
Doug Smith (36:43):
Turns of phrase.
What are some of?
Joe Mull (36:44):
yours Turns of phrase yeah, Turns of phrase.
Doug Smith (36:47):
What are some?
Joe Mull (36:48):
of yours.
Help me understand right,Instead of why do you?
Doug Smith (36:52):
You just started using that, that's so good, or
tell me more about that.
Joe Mull (36:57):
I try to use we versus you whenever possible.
Yeah.
Doug Smith (37:02):
I love it.
What's your biggest leadershippet peeve.
Joe Mull (37:07):
Biggest leadership pet peeve.
I am known for ranting againstexit interviews that exit
interviews are stupid and weshould stop doing them.
They're a colossal waste oftime and resources because, if
you think about it, it's absurd,right?
So the person has decided toleave.
They've got no skin in the gameanymore.
(37:27):
They've got one foot out thedoor.
Now we're going to ask them hey, what do you think we should do
differently around here?
It's absurd.
It's stupid.
We should do interviews.
We should be asking the peoplewho stay those questions.
Doug Smith (37:41):
Yeah, preach, I don't know if you have an actual
bucket list or not, but what'ssomething you've done in your
life that you think everyoneshould experience before they
die?
Joe Mull (37:50):
Oh man, I think I don't know if it's a bucket list
thing, but I think everybodyshould have to work in retail or
a restaurant or both at somepoint in their lives.
I did both in high school.
It really teaches you to carefor and respect people in those
roles.
Doug Smith (38:10):
What was your favorite retail or restaurant
job that you had?
Joe Mull (38:13):
I worked at, so if you know Brookstone and shopping
malls, they've got all the coolgadgets and stuff.
I did that during a holidayseason.
That was a neat place to work.
Doug Smith (38:22):
Coolest gadget in Brookstone that you've
experienced.
Joe Mull (38:25):
The massage chair.
They had a fancy massage chairbefore you could get them in,
like April's and Lobby's andthings like that.
Doug Smith (38:32):
That's so funny.
If you could go back and havecoffee with yourself at any age
and you would have actuallylistened to yourself, what age
would that be and what would youtell that version of Joe?
Joe Mull (38:45):
My first plus reaction is I would go back to myself in
middle school and I was verysmall and I was very smart,
which is a pretty brutalcombination.
In those years, middle schoolwas awful and I got picked on a
lot.
I think I would just probablyencourage myself that it's going
to get better.
Part of me now as a dad wouldwant to teach me to fight back
(39:08):
and probably say some of thethings that even my parents were
saying at the same time.
I don't know that I was able tohear it, but I would tell
myself that it's going to getbetter.
Doug Smith (39:16):
It's going to get better.
At the end of your life, oneday, looking back, what do you
want to be remembered for andwhat do you want your legacy to
be?
Joe Mull (39:24):
As a father and as a husband and as someone who moves
through this world withcompassion and kindness and a
giving spirit to others, wouldprobably be the most important
Second to that, maybe somethingabout improving work, making
work, work for all.
I think everybody deserves tobe treated with worth and to
have a job that they love, andlet's figure out how to do that
(39:46):
together.
Doug Smith (39:47):
Yeah, and you're giving your life to that.
Now For those listening, ifpeople connected with you.
What are some ways people couldconnect you with you?
How can they find you and howcan they work with?
Joe Mull (39:55):
you.
Thank you for asking, man.
I'm at joemullcom or, if it'seasier to remember, you can go
to bossbetternowcom and you'llfind our podcasts and books and
all sorts of other materials.
Doug Smith (40:12):
Awesome.
Anything you want to talk about, anything else you want to say
to leaders before we hop off?
Joe Mull (40:17):
Just keep caring about people and just giving the time
and effort into one-on-onelearning about people and
building that relationship.
Doug Smith (40:26):
Joe, thanks for the interview, thanks for the
conversation and all that you doto create great workplaces and
keep making a difference, myfriend.
Joe Mull (40:32):
Oh, thank you, Doug, this was a blast.
Thanks for having me.
Doug Smith (40:35):
Well, leader, thank you so much for listening to my
conversation with Joe.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at l3leadershiporg.
And, as always, leader, I wantto challenge you that if you
want to attend extra growth thisyear, then you need to either
launch or join an L3 leadershipmastermind group.
Mastermind groups are simplygroups of six to 12 leaders that
(40:56):
meet together on a consistentbasis for at least one year in
order to help each other grow,hold each other accountable and
to do life together.
For me personally, mastermindgroups have been the greatest
source of growth in my life overthe last eight years, and so if
you are interested in launchingor joining a group, go to
l3leadershiporg, forward slashmasterminds or email me at
dougsmith at l3leadershiporg.
(41:17):
And, as always, I like to endevery episode with a quote, and
I'll quote Henry Cloud today,who said this.
He said a successful person isnot offended or afraid of their
faults.
They see them as opportunitiesto grow.
This is difficult and requireshumility, but it brings problems
to the surface that canactually be solved.
So much wisdom in that.
Well, leader.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
(41:37):
Know that my wife Laura and Ilove you.
We believe in you and I say toevery episode but don't quit,
Keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
We'll talk to you next episode.
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsat Beratung Advisors.
We also recorded this episodelive from the new reiturn.
com studio.
If you're new to the podcast,welcome.
I'm so glad that you're hereand I hope that you enjoy our
(00:28):
content and become a subscriber.
I know that you can also watchall of our episodes over on our
YouTube channel, so make sureyou're subscribed there as well.
And, as always, if you've beenlistening to the podcast for a
while and it's impacted yourlife, it would mean the world to
me.
If you leave us a rating andreview on Apple Podcast or
Spotify or whatever app youlisten to podcast through, that
really does help us to grow ouraudience and reach more leaders,
so thank you in advance forthat.
(00:48):
Well, leader, in today'sepisode, you'll hear my
conversation with Joe Maul.
If you're unfamiliar with Joe,let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Joe has spent thousands ofhours shaping managers into
strong leaders, with his decadesof experience, his compelling
content and dynamic delivery Indemand.
As a speaker and trainer, joehas attracted audiences of all
sizes from all sectors from allover North America.
(01:09):
Prior to launching his own firm, john was the head of learning
and development for a top 10 UShealthcare organization, where
he managed training for morethan 9,000 employees at over 500
locations.
Joe's written three books Curefor the Common Leader, no More
Team Drama.
And his most recent Employalty,which is the focus of our
conversation today, and you'llhear Joe talk all about a
(01:30):
leader's role in creating greatworkplaces and attracting
training and retainingworld-class employees in today's
job market, which I can't thinkof a more relevant topic for
leaders right now.
I think you're going to get aton out of this.
Before we dive in, just a fewannouncements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
(01:51):
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BaratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by
visiting their website atbaratungadvisorscom.
That'sB-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom.
Securities and investmentproducts and services offered
through LPL Financial.
Member of FINRA and SIPC,Beratung Advisors, lpl Financial
(02:14):
and L3 Leadership are separateentities.
I also want to thank our sponsor, Henne Jewelers.
They were jewelry earned by myfriend and mentor, John Henne.
My wife Lara and I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henne Jewelers and hadan incredible experience.
Not only do they have greatjewelry, but they also invest in
people.
In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
a book to help them prepare formarriage.
We just love that.
(02:34):
If you're in need of a goodjeweler, check out
HenneJewelerscom.
I also want to thank our newsponsor, reiturn.
com Leader.
Let me just ask you this haveyou ever had an interest in
investing in real estate?
Now, for as little as $500, youcan become a commercial real
estate investor.
Just visit Reiturn.
com to learn more.
That's R-E-I-T-U-R-Ncom.
(02:56):
Investing involves risk.
Please consult the returnoffering circular if you're
interested in investing.
With all that being said, let'sdive right in.
Here's my conversation with JoeMull.
Hey, Joe Mull, welcome to theL3 Leadership Podcast.
It's an honor to have you here.
Why don't we just start up withyou just giving us a little bit
about your background and whatyou do?
Joe Mull (03:17):
Well, thanks for having me, Doug.
I'm super excited to be herewith you.
I know that our conversationtoday is going to be a lot of
fun, because I think we'repassionate about a lot of the
same things.
I am 46 years old and I'vespent the better part of the
last 20 years teaching leadershow to be better bosses and how
to create the conditions at workfor people to thrive.
I was previously the head oflearning and development for a
(03:41):
large healthcare system and then, about 10 years ago, went out
on my own and built a boutiquetraining and development firm.
Most of my work now is aboutspeaking and writing and
training.
I'm one of those people thatnerds out around the social
science research, for what makespeople tick at work and how do
you get people to care, and whatrole do leaders play in that?
Doug Smith (04:03):
This is obviously always an important topic, but I
think in a post-COVID world,you have the great resignation.
I'm being told that it's beenfollowed by the great regret.
We have leaders everywhere whohave lost great people.
They're trying to rebuild theirteams.
They're trying to figure outflexibility in the workplace.
Do we do remote?
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
(04:24):
Just to tee it up, you recentlywrote a book.
You've wrote several which Iwant to dive into, but your most
recent book is calledEmployalty.
Why don't you just set thestage of why you wrote this and
what you want leaders to get outof it, before we dive into the
specifics?
Joe Mull (04:38):
Sure, I ended up writing Employalty because I was
getting frustrated by thenational conversation that was
taking place around the greatresignation, that it was
triggered by COVID, that it'sall about money.
Neither of those things aretrue.
We know, for example, that whatwe're calling the great
resignation actually started in2010, in that every year since
(05:00):
2010, the number of people whovoluntarily changed jobs has
increased.
We also know that it's beingdriven not by work ethic the
issues that nobody wants to workanymore and people just got
lazier.
It's being driven by peoplepursuing quality of life after
years of being overworked andunderpaid and burned out.
(05:20):
When I decided to write thisbook, it was really about
helping business owners andleaders understand what they
need to get right in order forpeople to join an organization,
stay long term and then give itall.
They've got to do great work.
The word we're playing a littletrick on the reader.
You hear the word and you thinkit means employee loyalty, but
(05:43):
the definition of employee it'sa portmanteau of the words
employer loyalty and humanity.
We know that when employerscreate a more humane employee
experience, that's actually whatactivates commitment at work.
Doug Smith (05:55):
Yeah, let's talk about what you found in the book
.
What are people looking for?
Leadership podcast.
You're speaking to leaders whoare constantly thinking this
through what can we do toactually attract, recruit,
retain all the above qualityemployees?
Joe Mull (06:11):
Yeah, we analyze more than 200 research studies and
articles on why people quit ajob, what attracts them to take
a new job or why they stay longterm in an organization.
We focused quite heavily on alot of this research.
Since COVID has arrived on ourshores, we can say with
conviction that it becomes mucheasier to find and keep people
(06:34):
at work if you're winning inthree specific areas of the
employee experience.
We call them ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
Now, there are dimensions toeach of these and I'm going to
rattle them off.
Ideal job is really aboutcompensation, workload and
flexibility.
If my money is right, if myworkload is manageable and I get
(06:56):
a little bit of flexibilityaround when, where and how I
work, that job fits into my lifelike a puzzle piece snapping
into place.
It becomes an ideal job.
Meaningful work is aboutpurpose, strengths and belonging
.
If I believe my work matters,if it aligns with my talents and
gifts and I'm a part of a teamwhere I'm accepted and
celebrated, I want to do greatwork, that work becomes
(07:18):
meaningful.
And then that great boss factorhas three dimensions to it
trust, coaching and advocacy.
If my direct supervisor grantstrust and earns trust, if he or
she coaches me regularly andthen they act as an advocate for
me, they act in my bestinterests, I've got a great boss
and when those three factorshit, you check all of these
(07:40):
boxes on this kind of internalpsychological scorecard that
people have that leads them towant to be a part of an
organization.
Doug Smith (07:47):
Wow, so I want to dive into each of those a little
bit.
On ideal job, I'm curious.
You mentioned flexibility andworkload and what you're seeing
through the research and talkingwith leaders.
What are you seeing?
What kind of workplaces do weneed to create in order to
attract and actually retaintalent?
Do we need to provide unlimitedvacation?
(08:07):
Do?
We need to do four-day workweeks?
Do we need to let everyone workfrom home remotely all the time
?
What are you seeing that'sworking?
Joe Mull (08:13):
What's working is when you improve people's quality of
life, and it's gonna bedifferent from person to person.
So I'm 46 years old.
When I was 26 years old, what Icared most about was growing my
financial compensation right.
I had a ton of college debt andI was trying to buy a house and
do all those things that you doin your 20s, but those aren't
the things that are as importantto me anymore At 46,.
(08:36):
What's important to me is hey,there are two days a week when I
need to be at home to get myyoung kids off the bus because
of my wife's work schedule, sosome flexibility is more
important to me.
So where we see organizationsfinding success is where they're
creating a host of innovationsaround quality of life
enhancements, and yes, in someplaces that's four-day work
weeks, and yes, that's flexiblework policies, remote work
(08:57):
policies, better compensation,increased benefits.
Vacation is absolutely a partof this, because we know that
our workloads have exploded inrecent years.
Across the board, though, andwhen you talk to folks about why
are you interested in changingjobs or why did you leave that
organization, the answers thatcome out they all sound
different.
Doug People will say I leftbecause I need better pay or a
(09:19):
less toxic work environment, ormore opportunities for growth,
or a better schedule or a bettercommute, but all of those ideas
actually roll up to one biggeridea, which is improved quality
of life.
Doug Smith (09:31):
You talked about the seasons of life.
I think this is so interesting,from my understanding where
we're, in the first time inhistory, we have five
generations in the workplace and, as you were alluding to, every
one of those generations havedifferent needs and the seasons
that they're in.
I'm in a similar season.
You have four kids under seven.
I mean it's insanity.
Joe Mull (09:50):
I have three.
We're both tired a lot.
That's what that means, yeah.
Doug Smith (09:53):
That's right.
That's right, but can you talkabout fairness?
Because it's like theflexibility that I need in my
stage.
Same thing you said when I wasin my twenties.
I had no problem putting in 10,12 hour days, going all in.
I can't do that in this currentseason and sadly, one day my
kids will grow up and go out ofthe house and I'll have all the
time I need to be able to go allin with work again or whatever
(10:15):
I choose to do.
How do you communicate fairnessin the workplace, or at least
communicate?
I guess you have to providedifferent flexibility for
different seasons and how do youcommunicate that so the whole
workplace feels like everyone'skind of on the same team, rowing
in the same direction, and hasthe same flexibility?
Joe Mull (10:31):
Yeah, it reminds me of this very interesting
conversation that was takingplace at a couple of the big
tech companies during the firstyear of COVID in 2020, where a
lot of employees were gettingwho had kids at home because
they couldn't attend school inperson anymore.
Non-parents were feeling likethat.
We were catering to the parentsand really being flexible for
(10:55):
them, but then, for employeeswho didn't have kids, we heard
bosses saying, yeah, but youdon't have kids.
So, like, what's the big deal?
We need you to show updifferently, and so it is a
fairness question in the waythat you talk about there.
What we do know, though, is that, for most people in the
workplace, from an HRperspective, we have an
obligation to give everyoneaccess to the same set of
(11:18):
benefits and opportunitiesacross the board, so if you're
offering a four day work week,you're offering a certain kind
of schedule or flexible workoption.
You really do need to offer itto everybody, regardless of
their station or status in life.
At the same time, though, weknow, for example, research
tells us clearly that jobcrafting, where you actually
tailor certain aspects of aperson's positions to their
(11:41):
strengths and to their schedule,enhances commitment.
You can still do those kinds ofthings at an individual level,
while still being equitablearound certain kinds of benefits
and policies and procedures.
So I guess that's the way inwhich I would differentiate it.
It would be what are theopportunities and options that
are offered to everybody versus?
(12:02):
How am I engineering a positionthat really allows for the
unique skills and gifts of theperson in that position to be
leveraged and to be utilized?
Doug Smith (12:13):
Yeah, also under the umbrella of flexibility, you
have remote work coming back tothe office.
So right, this is the bigdebate now.
From what I'm saying, largeorganizations are now bringing
everyone back into the office.
What are you saying?
Because the question, I think,is can you develop the kind of
culture that you want withinyour organization, with everyone
(12:33):
working remote full time, or dopeople actually need to be in
person?
Is it more of a trust issuearound performance, and what do
you suggest for leaders?
Just out of your experience?
Joe Mull (12:43):
Yeah, there's a lot going on around the work from
home and the return to workquestion right now, right, so a
couple of things.
First, I'm very much a centriston remote work.
If that's a thing, we haveproven that there are a whole
host of roles that can be donewell from home most of the time.
(13:04):
We also know there are somethings that you get by gathering
and working together in personthat you can't duplicate
creativity, innovation,camaraderie, et cetera.
All of these go a long way towork culture, to how we serve
clients, and so it's not out ofbounds for an employer to want
people to gather so that theycan get those benefits.
(13:26):
What I think is important inthis day and age is that
employees and leaders areco-creating their work from home
policies together.
I think employers need to havean eye on creating policies that
do not lower quality of lifefor people.
So I have a couple of friendswho were just posting online
about this this week, about how,after two years, their employer
(13:47):
has moved their office buildinginto a downtown setting and are
mandating that their employeesnow come back full time and
they're posting.
My costs for community justwent up parking gas.
I'm gonna spend an hour in thecar, each way, every day.
This is an absolute disruptionthat I'm not gonna tolerate, and
when you enact policies thatlower people's quality of life,
(14:10):
you create a flight risk, and soreally it's about that dialogue
together.
What I challenge employers tothink about is that most of the
time, work from home policiesare really about trust.
In this day and age, we'reseeing so many employers who are
trying to create really complexmonitoring systems and check-in
processes because they believethat if left to their own
(14:32):
devices, employees working fromhome aren't gonna try as hard or
care as much.
They're gonna watch Netflix anddo laundry all day, and it just
doesn't prove to be true mostof the time, and so these
employers are imposing thesecomplex systems onto a group of
largely ethical people out offear of the rare bad apple right
(14:52):
, and it sends a really powerfulmessage to employees, which is
that we don't trust you.
It also slows down their workand it lowers their quality of
life, and so those kinds ofapproaches to work from home
don't do any good.
One more point, because I knowI've been going for a little
while around this.
I love it.
The work from home piece that Ithink is most important is
really tied to flexibility.
(15:15):
Flexibility is about givingpeople some influence over when,
where and how they work.
And what we know is if you givepeople just a little bit of
flexibility, a little bit ofcontrol, a little bit of say in
some aspect of their workarrangement, it super charges
commitment, and work from homeis just one kind of flexibility.
Right, maybe we're just talkingabout giving people some
(15:37):
influence over where their shiftstarts or when it starts, or
who they work with, or how longit is or what days of the week
they work.
When you can give some of thatpower back to people, you create
more loyalty in yourorganization.
Doug Smith (15:52):
Yeah, that's so good .
I love.
I love how you just saidleaders should work with.
Hey, here's a novel thought askyour employees for input before
you create a policy, see howthey're thinking and feeling.
I am curious.
I mentioned the great.
What is the great?
Resignation, and then it'sfollowed by the great regret.
Joe Mull (16:07):
Right.
Doug Smith (16:08):
You know you mentioned employees who now they
do have to come back to theoffice and they're saying, hey,
I will discuss, et cetera.
Are you seeing that and do youhave any advice for people who
may be listening to this andsaying, yeah, I feel like I need
more flexibility than you knowI had.
I don't like the direction thecompany's going.
I want to leave.
What advice do you have sopeople don't have great regret
in transitioning?
Joe Mull (16:28):
Right.
So, yes, I've seen a lot of thesort of the great regret, and I
think it's being driven in alot of ways by unkept promises
from employers.
So, in the last couple of years, as workers sought more quality
of life and as a caveat here,doug, I have actually referred
to the great resignation as thegreat upgrade, because that's
(16:50):
really what's happening in thelabor market.
People aren't resigning,they're switching jobs, and when
they switch job, they'repursuing those upgrades to
quality of life that we talkedabout, and we have all kinds of
jobs.
Data that tells us this is thecase, and I think this is a
really important distinction tomake for leaders and employers.
People aren't deciding not towork.
There's not an invisible massof people who are sitting on the
(17:11):
sidelines.
All of a sudden, we have morejobs in our economy than we have
people to fill them, and sothere's opportunity now and
people are seeking upgrades toquality of life, and so it's
been the great upgrade where wesee employees leaving these new
jobs quickly or evenboomeranging back to employers
that they left in the firstplace.
It's often driven by unkeptpromises.
(17:32):
They were told yes, you'regonna get flexibility.
Yes, you're gonna be able towork from home a lot.
Yes, we've got great bosses.
Yes, we're gonna invest in yourprofessional development.
Yes, we're gonna keep pushingyour wages higher and higher.
And then they get there and thepromises that were made weren't
kept.
And, yeah, in some cases,people end up finding that the
grass isn't always greener onthe other side and they go back
(17:54):
to other places they were atbefore or they go looking for
another upgrade in some way.
My advice for employers is keepyour promises and really think
about those quality of lifeenhancements and recognize that
you have to choose an identityright now.
Are you a departureorganization or are you a
destination workplace?
And if you wanna be adestination workplace, you have
(18:15):
to understand those dimensionsof ideal job and meaningful work
and great boss that we justtalked about For employees who
may be in roles that they'reunhappy about.
Right, we've all maybe had theexperience where we weren't in
love with a job, but we didn'tnecessarily know the reason why.
I would argue that you couldbang your experience up against
that same framework of ideal job, meaningful work, great boss
(18:38):
and the dimensions that we justtalked about a few minutes ago
to say, all right, which ofthese am I getting and which of
these am I not getting?
And for the ones that I'm notgetting, does it turn out that
maybe those are even moreimportant to me than I realized.
And now how do I go seek thoseout?
In another part of my company,or maybe another role altogether
?
Doug Smith (18:58):
Yeah, I wanna transition and talk about the
great boss factor, because thisis a leadership podcast, and I'm
sure every leader listening tothis has heard the phrase people
don't leave companies, theyleave people, which historically
, I would say, at least in myexperience, has been true.
One just.
You have three things that youmentioned under what a great
boss looks like, but we'reresponsible as leaders for
(19:20):
ensuring the way of greatorganizations.
What does a great boss looklike and how can leaders
identify whether or not theyhave good ones?
Joe Mull (19:26):
Yeah.
So we all know that there areliterally dozens of things that
a leader needs to do rightconsistently for someone to
point to them and say, man, I'vegot a great boss.
And we also know that, even ifwe get all of those things right
, it's still a really fragilerelationship and it can be
fleeting at times.
Right, you could take years tobuild up that great boss
(19:47):
employee relationship and youcan significantly damage it in
one or two bad decisions, right?
And so as we looked at whatleaders need to do well,
consistently in order for thatdirect supervisor relationship
to work, we kept coming back tothese three ideas of trust,
coaching and advocacy.
(20:07):
So trust is a two-way street,right, I have to grant trust and
I have to earn trust.
And I grant trust specificallyby giving people the freedom to
get to their work product theirway, which may not always be my
way.
It's trusting other people'sinsights, their ideas, being
willing to let them try newthings, being willing to let
(20:28):
them fail, because, as a boss,when we don't grant trust, we
end up becoming a micromanager,and we know that's a
soul-crushingly awful experiencefor people who have somebody
right over their shoulder.
Earning trust is about beingcompetent and being present and
sharing credit and acceptingblame and doing many of the
things that we talk consistentlyabout that are sort of flagship
(20:50):
behaviors for leaders in thisday and age.
So that trust factor is sort ofa secret sauce in the boss
piece.
The coaching dimension is reallyabout a specific kind of
conversation that we're havingwith employees consistently.
Too often when we talk aboutcoaching we think it's about
giving advice or we picturesomebody with a whistle around
(21:12):
their neck standing on thesideline at a football game.
But in terms of leadershipthat's not what we mean when we
say coaching.
Coaching is a very specifickind of conversation.
It's asking people open-endedquestions in the right order to
create self-actualization, tomine them for their insights and
the creativity and theirpotential solutions.
And so when I have a supervisorwho coaches me, who invites me
(21:38):
to share my thoughts andopinions, who challenges me, who
uses it as a developmental toolto not just give me answers
when I ask questions but to say,well, what options do you see,
that leadership behavior, thatleadership skill of coaching is
one of the most powerfulinfluences of employee
engagement, as it shows up inthe research.
(21:58):
And then that third dimension ofadvocacy if you think about
what an advocate does.
It's someone who acts in mybest interests.
So, as a boss, do I care notjust about the tasks and duties
of someone's job and whetherthey're complete or done well?
Do I care about that personoutside of work?
Do I advocate not just for whatthey need to get at work to be
(22:18):
successful, but do I care abouttheir long-term career prospects
?
At the very least, do I know alittle something about their
story?
Am I connecting with them andtheir humanity in a human way
and not just treating them as acommodity at work?
All of those things bake intothe pie to produce a great boss.
Doug Smith (22:38):
Yeah, so if those are the things that make up a
great boss is the leaders of theorganization were responsible
for actually training up andraising up great bosses.
I'm curious from an HRperspective and from a
leadership perspective From thetop of the organization.
What are best practices thatyou would say when it comes to
onboarding, training andequipping the leaders within our
organization to actually begreat bosses?
Joe Mull (22:59):
Yeah, so there are.
There are two big ideas thatresearch tells us consistently
influence the performance ofleaders and then, downstream,
influence the engagement oftheir teams.
And a lot of this research hasbeen driven by Gallup in recent
years.
They found consistently inorganizations with the highest
performing levels of employeeengagement.
(23:20):
So you've got low turnover and,right, higher retention.
You've got people who say thisis a great place to work, people
who who part with what iscalled discretionary effort,
right, that space between doingthe minimum and giving it all.
They've got in organizationswhere we see that consistently,
we see managers have twocharacteristics in common.
(23:41):
The first is that they are apart of a peer group of managers
where they regularly get tomeet and discuss and share help
and information.
The second is that theydemonstrate an ongoing
commitment to professionaldevelopment.
And so this is reallyinteresting to me from a
leadership developmentperspective, because sometimes
we think, as as employers or ascompanies, that we need to
(24:04):
create really sophisticatedleadership development programs,
and maybe we don't.
Maybe all we really need to dois make sure that leaders get
some time to confer with otherpeer leaders and to talk to each
other about the challenges ofbeing a leader, and maybe the
other thing we just need to dois make sure that we are helping
(24:27):
these leaders engage in anongoing commitment to
professional development.
So it's so making sure they canattend conferences, making sure
that they occasionally can canread a book about leadership or
listen to a podcast like thisone.
Right, just making time andspace for leaders to talk about
what it means to be a leader andto help each other do it well
Turns out that's maybe the mosteffective way to do it.
(24:49):
Maybe those are the bestpractices.
Doug Smith (24:51):
That's so good.
I wanted to have a little bitmore into being a great boss and
creating a great culture.
You wrote another book.
I just think this ties intogreat bosses and the book is
called no more team dramaeliminating the gossip, clicks
and other crap that damages team.
First of all, unbelievable booktitle, thank you, but I'm super
passionate about this.
So gossip is rampant in ourworld.
(25:13):
It's crazy.
It does damage teams, itdamages organizations.
How can, how can leaders dosome of the things you mentioned
eliminating gossip and clicksbecause if they don't do that,
we're never going to thrive andhave a flourishing culture, in
my opinion.
Joe Mull (25:26):
Yeah, it's funny, this book was born out of work that
I've been doing for yearstraveling into organizations,
doing, you know, like full daylong leadership masterclasses,
and coming back a couple timesand working with frontline and
mid level managers about what doyou, what are you struggling
with the most, what are the thebiggest people management
challenges you face?
And consistently, we would getback all of these ideas about
(25:48):
well, we can't just people justdon't play well together in the
sandbox sometimes.
And how do we like, what do Ido?
What kind of conversations do Ihave?
How do I fix that?
And so we decided, all right,like why do some teams become
high performing, close knit, nodrama work groups, while others
just get mired in debate anddysfunction and drama?
And so we started doing a lotof again research.
(26:11):
I kind of talked about nerdingout around the social science
I'm really interested in where,what, what leads to clicks, what
leads to gossip, what are thetriggers, what are the
environmental factors, what arethe beliefs, what are the
cognitive biases.
And so we married all of thattogether into this book and what
we found is that most of thetime, team drama comes from
(26:34):
people more favorably judgingthemselves and we're harshly
judging others because of someshortcuts our brains take and
the stories they make up aboutwhy people do what they do.
And so the book really arguesthat there are four things teams
have to work on together inorder to cut down on us more
favorably judging ourselves andmore harshly judging others, and
(26:55):
we call them courtesy,camaraderie, conflict and cause.
Now you can tell, doug, becauseyou just asked me about the
other book, that we likeframeworks, right we?
When we we talk about thisstuff, we like to try to
translate some of these complexideas into simple concepts,
right?
So courtesy is about the qualityof interactions that people
have.
What are the expectations forhow we talk to and treat each
(27:17):
other?
Camaraderie is about givingpeople a chance to form
sophisticated relationships witheach other and to access each
other's humanity, because, itturns out, we judge each other
less harshly when we know somethings about each other.
We find things in common witheach other that don't have
anything to do with work.
Conflict is about teachingpeople how to avoid unhealthy
(27:37):
patterns of conflict.
We write in the book aboutsomething called drama triangles
, right, where if I'm upset withsomebody else, I actually end
up going to a third party first.
Right when you're frustratedwith somebody, you got to go
(28:01):
talk to that person first, andthen cause is really about our
mission and our purpose.
Right when we, when everybodyis rowing in the same direction
and when you identify a missionthat is so powerful and worthy
of people's attention that itcuts down on the high school BS
and noise, that kind of creepsinto work sometimes.
So those four things courtesy,camaraderie, conflict and cause
(28:23):
are sort of the recipe for a lowdrama work team.
Doug Smith (28:27):
I love these frameworks as we start to wrap
on the conversation aroundemployer employee.
The third bucket that youtalked about was just meaningful
work.
Yeah, and I think this is huge.
Now I work at a rescue mission.
We serve the homeless.
Everyone's like, wow, there'sso much meaning behind your work
.
I wish I had meaning in my work.
How, how do we help people findmeaning and significance?
(28:51):
And what they do in the day today?
Because all of our jobs, nomatter what the purpose of the
organization.
Joe Mull (28:56):
Yeah, have mundane parts of them.
Yeah, I do a lot of work athealthcare and it's easy to get
romantic about healthcare.
To right, we're saving lives,we're curing the sick and there
are a lot of professions whereyou can point to the difference
your work makes in the lives ofothers, right, quick.
But there are other jobs wheremaybe that's harder to do.
I've had a lot of conversationswith people who work in call
centers and collections andthings of that nature.
(29:18):
I think every job in one way oranother, either reduces
suffering or imparts joy or insome form or fashion makes a
difference to somebody in apositive way.
I think we as leaders, if wecan shine a light on that and
become better storytellers, wecan actually help people find
(29:39):
that purpose and that meaningmore easily.
I always give the example ofthe ticket taker at the movie
theater.
Right, this is, this is mydream.
Backup job dog.
If I just get tired of thinkingat work, I might just go tear
tickets at the movie theaterbecause it feel like it's not
that hard, right, you just tearthe ticket on your left, on your
right, there's the restroom,thanks for coming.
But if I ran a movie theaterand I had, you know, high school
(30:03):
kids working for me tear intickets.
I wouldn't want them there justlike slouching and thinking
that their word work wasmeaningless.
I would want them to believethat that doing that really
matters, and not just because wedon't want people stealing free
movies.
And so I probably do somethinglike this.
If I hired a high school kid, Iwould say, hey, you're tearing
ticket to the movie theater, andI know that probably feels
meaningless, but it's really not.
(30:24):
Who do you know who has beenmarried the longest?
And we'd probably hear maybeabout their grandparents or an
aunt and uncle, or maybe theirown parents.
And I would say I want you togo ask them to tell you about
their first date, and I want youto come back and tell me about
it.
And when this kid came back andtold me about it, I would
probably get a lot of detailright and I would probably say
(30:46):
something like isn't itremarkable that they remember in
such detail a night thathappened like 40 years ago?
Isn't that remarkable?
Hey, guess what?
The people walking past youevery day that you're tearing
tickets might be that couple.
They might be on their firstdate and we get to be a part of
that, and isn't that amazing?
(31:07):
And then, doug, I'd say now, doyou know anybody who has kids,
say, under the age of three?
And if they do, maybe it's aneighbor, maybe it's a cousin.
Okay, I want you to call themup and I want you to ask them
what would it take for you to goto the movies tomorrow?
And I want you to figure outall the things that they would
(31:27):
have to get into place, to getout of the house without the
kids to go see a movie.
Right, you said you got fourkids, I got three.
If I want, if I wipe and I wantto go see a movie, right, we're
out 50, 60 bucks for ababysitter before we pull out on
a driveway right, yep, yeah,I'm with you.
And so then I would have thatkid come back and tell me.
I would say every day you'retearing tickets, you've got
people walking past you who hadto move heaven and earth just to
(31:50):
be there, and so let's makethis nice special for them.
So you see what I'm doing right, I'm connecting.
Doug Smith (31:55):
I'm ready to go work for you at the movie.
Joe Mull (31:59):
The difference that we make in the lives of others and
making it personal and makingit emotional.
Doug Smith (32:04):
This is huge.
I mean you just made itemotional for me my wife and I's
first date at a movie.
We saw Lord of the Rings 2, Ithink in like 2002.
Joe Mull (32:10):
That's a good one.
Doug Smith (32:12):
And yeah, date nights.
We just saw Mission Impossible700, whatever.
Joe Mull (32:16):
Right.
Doug Smith (32:17):
But hey plug for the movie.
It was incredible.
But I mean that's so good.
And, as leaders, our job is tocommunicate vision and repeat
and repeat, and repeat, andrepeat and repeat, and I think
sharing stories like you justshared, that's our job.
And so leaders communicatevision, keep saying the same
thing.
I have a friend that alwaystells me repetition leads to
retention, which is so good.
Joe Mull (32:36):
And personalizing it, because that's what we just did.
Sometimes, when we talk about,here's the difference we make in
the lives of other.
We cure the sick and we feedthe homeless, and that's true.
But when you can bring thatdown from the many to the one we
made a difference in James'slife, or we made a difference in
this couple's life it becomeseven more powerful.
Doug Smith (32:55):
Yeah Well, Joe, we've spent a lot of time
talking about the employers, theleaders of the organization and
what they need to do.
I just want to give you freereign and I'll just leave this
really, really open ended toemployees.
We have young leaders listeningto this who want to grow and
develop.
They want to be leaders one day.
They want to advance, they wantto do well.
What advice do you have foremployees and future leaders?
(33:17):
What do they need to do inorder to thrive in today's
workplace?
Joe Mull (33:24):
If you want your employer to be devoted to you,
then we have to show up devotedto them, we have to care about
their mission, we do have tocare about their bottom line, we
do have to care about thequality of the interactions that
we have with clients, withcustomers.
And so showing up at work andjust going through the motions
isn't going to get us very farand it's not going to motivate
(33:46):
our employers to create a betteremployee experience.
What we wrote about in this book, employalty is really about
reciprocity.
Commitment is a two-way street.
I'm banging the table on allkinds of media really employing
employers to treat people morehumanely at work, to stop
(34:07):
treating employees like acommodity, to teach leaders how
to show up in such a way thatthey care not just about who the
person is at work but that theycare about their life outside
of work as well.
And we need to return thatcommitment with a commitment of
our own to join an organization,to give that organization a
chance to teach us and then tobring our whole selves to that
(34:30):
work and to care about thequality of our work.
When that commitment truly is atwo-way street, you end up
having an ideal job, doingmeaningful work for a great boss
.
In general, we know that peoplegenerally do a great job when
they believe they have a greatjob, and so if you see an
employer who's trying to createa great job for you, do what you
(34:50):
can to do a great job for them.
Doug Smith (34:53):
So good, Joe, it's time we have left.
I want to dive into thelightning round.
A bunch of fun questions I askin every interview.
Joe Mull (34:58):
All right.
Doug Smith (34:58):
And the first one is what is the best advice you've
ever received and who gave it toyou?
Joe Mull (35:03):
Can I swear?
Doug Smith (35:06):
We'll keep it out.
Joe Mull (35:08):
PG-13.
One of the first pieces ofadvice that I got after grad
school in my first job from thiscrotchety old guy who had been
a leader for about 100 years wasdon't wear you eat.
And he talked about for yearswatching young graduates go to
conferences and get drunk and dostupid things and they're
professional networks and thatalways resonated with me right
(35:29):
From a professional level don'tbleep where you eat.
Doug Smith (35:35):
If you could put a quote on a billboard for
everyone to read, what would itsay?
Joe Mull (35:39):
If I could put a quote on a billboard for everyone to
read, I would probably be what Ijust said.
People generally do a great jobwhen they believe they have a
great job.
Doug Smith (35:52):
What books, either all time or recently, have you
read that have made the greatestimpact on your life?
Joe Mull (35:57):
Well, my favorite leadership book since that's the
theme of this podcast is DanielPink's book Drive the
Surprising Truth About whatMotivates Us.
He just writes so brilliantlyabout a lot of that social
science research on intrinsicmotivation, and I think it
should be required reading forleaders at all levels.
Doug Smith (36:14):
You've done a lot of research.
You've spent time with a lot ofleaders and organizations.
I'm curious when you get tospend time with a great leader
that you look up to or admire,do you have a go-to question
that you always ask when you gettime with them?
Joe Mull (36:25):
I ask for scripts and turns of phrase.
What scripts or turns of phrasehave you found have had the
biggest impact on your work?
If you have to have a difficultconversation with somebody, how
do you say what you want to say?
Learn a lot of reallyinteresting approaches with that
one.
Doug Smith (36:40):
What is it scripts and what.
Joe Mull (36:41):
Turns of phrase.
Doug Smith (36:43):
Turns of phrase.
What are some of?
Joe Mull (36:44):
yours Turns of phrase yeah, Turns of phrase.
Doug Smith (36:47):
What are some?
Joe Mull (36:48):
of yours.
Help me understand right,Instead of why do you?
Doug Smith (36:52):
You just started using that, that's so good, or
tell me more about that.
Joe Mull (36:57):
I try to use we versus you whenever possible.
Yeah.
Doug Smith (37:02):
I love it.
What's your biggest leadershippet peeve.
Joe Mull (37:07):
Biggest leadership pet peeve.
I am known for ranting againstexit interviews that exit
interviews are stupid and weshould stop doing them.
They're a colossal waste oftime and resources because, if
you think about it, it's absurd,right?
So the person has decided toleave.
They've got no skin in the gameanymore.
(37:27):
They've got one foot out thedoor.
Now we're going to ask them hey, what do you think we should do
differently around here?
It's absurd.
It's stupid.
We should do interviews.
We should be asking the peoplewho stay those questions.
Doug Smith (37:41):
Yeah, preach, I don't know if you have an actual
bucket list or not, but what'ssomething you've done in your
life that you think everyoneshould experience before they
die?
Joe Mull (37:50):
Oh man, I think I don't know if it's a bucket list
thing, but I think everybodyshould have to work in retail or
a restaurant or both at somepoint in their lives.
I did both in high school.
It really teaches you to carefor and respect people in those
roles.
Doug Smith (38:10):
What was your favorite retail or restaurant
job that you had?
Joe Mull (38:13):
I worked at, so if you know Brookstone and shopping
malls, they've got all the coolgadgets and stuff.
I did that during a holidayseason.
That was a neat place to work.
Doug Smith (38:22):
Coolest gadget in Brookstone that you've
experienced.
Joe Mull (38:25):
The massage chair.
They had a fancy massage chairbefore you could get them in,
like April's and Lobby's andthings like that.
Doug Smith (38:32):
That's so funny.
If you could go back and havecoffee with yourself at any age
and you would have actuallylistened to yourself, what age
would that be and what would youtell that version of Joe?
Joe Mull (38:45):
My first plus reaction is I would go back to myself in
middle school and I was verysmall and I was very smart,
which is a pretty brutalcombination.
In those years, middle schoolwas awful and I got picked on a
lot.
I think I would just probablyencourage myself that it's going
to get better.
Part of me now as a dad wouldwant to teach me to fight back
(39:08):
and probably say some of thethings that even my parents were
saying at the same time.
I don't know that I was able tohear it, but I would tell
myself that it's going to getbetter.
Doug Smith (39:16):
It's going to get better.
At the end of your life, oneday, looking back, what do you
want to be remembered for andwhat do you want your legacy to
be?
Joe Mull (39:24):
As a father and as a husband and as someone who moves
through this world withcompassion and kindness and a
giving spirit to others, wouldprobably be the most important
Second to that, maybe somethingabout improving work, making
work, work for all.
I think everybody deserves tobe treated with worth and to
have a job that they love, andlet's figure out how to do that
(39:46):
together.
Doug Smith (39:47):
Yeah, and you're giving your life to that.
Now For those listening, ifpeople connected with you.
What are some ways people couldconnect you with you?
How can they find you and howcan they work with?
Joe Mull (39:55):
you.
Thank you for asking, man.
I'm at joemullcom or, if it'seasier to remember, you can go
to bossbetternowcom and you'llfind our podcasts and books and
all sorts of other materials.
Doug Smith (40:12):
Awesome.
Anything you want to talk about, anything else you want to say
to leaders before we hop off?
Joe Mull (40:17):
Just keep caring about people and just giving the time
and effort into one-on-onelearning about people and
building that relationship.
Doug Smith (40:26):
Joe, thanks for the interview, thanks for the
conversation and all that you doto create great workplaces and
keep making a difference, myfriend.
Joe Mull (40:32):
Oh, thank you, Doug, this was a blast.
Thanks for having me.
Doug Smith (40:35):
Well, leader, thank you so much for listening to my
conversation with Joe.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at l3leadershiporg.
And, as always, leader, I wantto challenge you that if you
want to attend extra growth thisyear, then you need to either
launch or join an L3 leadershipmastermind group.
Mastermind groups are simplygroups of six to 12 leaders that
(40:56):
meet together on a consistentbasis for at least one year in
order to help each other grow,hold each other accountable and
to do life together.
For me personally, mastermindgroups have been the greatest
source of growth in my life overthe last eight years, and so if
you are interested in launchingor joining a group, go to
l3leadershiporg, forward slashmasterminds or email me at
dougsmith at l3leadershiporg.
(41:17):
And, as always, I like to endevery episode with a quote, and
I'll quote Henry Cloud today,who said this.
He said a successful person isnot offended or afraid of their
faults.
They see them as opportunitiesto grow.
This is difficult and requireshumility, but it brings problems
to the surface that canactually be solved.
So much wisdom in that.
Well, leader.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
(41:37):
Know that my wife Laura and Ilove you.
We believe in you and I say toevery episode but don't quit,
Keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
We'll talk to you next episode.
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