January 30, 2024 • 38 mins
Episode Summary: In this episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast, bestselling author Jordan Raynor discusses his new book, The Sacredness of Secular Work: 4 Ways Your Job Matters for Eternity.
About Jordan Raynor: Through his bestselling books (The Creator in You, Redeeming Your Time, Master of One, and Called to Create), the Mere Christians podcast, and his weekly devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work.
In addition to his writing, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own.
Jordan has twice been selected as a Google Fellow and served in The White House under President George W. Bush. A sixth-generation Floridian, Jordan lives in Tampa with his wife and their three young daughters. The Raynors are proud members of The Church at Odessa.
3 Key Takeaways:
1. Jordan references scriptural foundations that redefine the value of our vocations.
2. You'll find out why being a barista or an investment banker carries just as much weight in the Kingdom as any overtly spiritual role.
3. He covers the notion of work in the eternal realm, challenging the mainstream view and bringing to light a vision of redeemed and purposeful labor that awaits us beyond this life.
Quotes From the Episode:
“Language matters, words matter.”
“The ultimate good is found in Christ alone.”
Resources Mentioned:
Jordan’s Books
Mere Christians Podcast
Connect with Jordan:
Website | Facebook | Instagram
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug Smith (00:07):
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsat Beratung Advisors.
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Studio.
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(00:27):
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You can just click that andit'll take you right to where
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So thank you in advance forthat.
Well, leader.
In today's episode, you'regoing to hear a returning guest,
my friend Jordan Raynor, andwe're going to be talking all
about his new book, which iscalled the Sacredness of Secular
Work Four Ways.
Your Job Matters for Eternityand if you enjoy this episode
(01:10):
again, you can go back andlisten to our first conversation
in episode number 351.
Jordan is brilliant and has somuch value to add.
If you're unfamiliar with him,let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Jordan Raynor is the leadingvoice of the faith and work
movement.
Through his bestselling booksthe Creator in You, Redeeming
Your Time, Master of One andCall to Create, the Mir
Christians podcast and hisweekly devotionals, Jordan has
(01:32):
helped millions of Christians inevery country on earth connect
their work to the gospel.
In addition to his writing,Jordan serves as the executive
chairman of Threshold 360venture-backed a tech startup
which Jordan previously ran aCEO.
Following a string ofsuccessful ventures of his own,
Jordan has been twice selectedas a Google Fellow and served in
the White House under PresidentGeorge W Bush.
(01:53):
A sixth generation Floridian,Jordan lives in Tampa with his
wife and their three youngdaughters.
The Rainers are proud membersof the Church of Odessa and in
our conversation today, you'regoing to hear Jordan talk all
about his new book, theSacredness of Secular Work Four
Ways.
Your Job Matters for Eternityand I think you're going to love
this conversation.
But before we dive in, just afew announcements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
(02:16):
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BeratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by
visiting their website atbaratungadvisorscom that's
B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisors.
com.
Securities and investmentproducts and services offered
(02:39):
through LPL Financial, member ofFINRA and SIPC.
Beratung Advisors, LPLFinancial and L3 Leadership are
separate entities.
I also want to thank our sponsor, Henne Jewelers.
They're a jeweler owned by myfriend and mentor, John Henne,
and my wife Laura and I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henne Jewelers and hadan incredible experience.
And not only do they have greatjewelry, but they also invest
in people.
In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
(03:01):
a book to help them prepare formarriage, and we just love that
.
So if you're in need of a goodjeweler, check out HenneJewelers
.
com.
And with all that being said,here's my conversation with
Jordan Raynor.
Well, Jordan Raynor, it isgreat to have you back on the
podcast, it's great to see youagain, and you've been such a
friend and such an encouragementin my life.
And you have a new book comingout, book number seven.
(03:21):
I don't know, I've lost track.
You are a beast, my friend, I'msuper.
You're just an inspiration tome.
But the title of this book iscalled the Sacredness of Secular
Work, and we'll just startbroadly.
Why did you write this book andwhat do you want listeners and
readers to get out of it?
Jordan Raynor (03:37):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And, Doug man, it's so fun tohang with you.
I always love getting toconverse with you.
Yeah, I wrote this book becauseyou know I spend most of my
time these days creating contentthat helps Christians see how
the work matters for eternity.
And when you tell anentrepreneur or a marketer or a
barista that their work quoteunquote matters for eternity,
(03:59):
the most typical response youhear is oh amen, my job is my
mission field and I'm like yeah,yes, that's, of course, true,
but if the only way our workmatters to God is because we can
leverage our jobs to quoteunquote share the gospel, then,
frankly, most of us are wastingmost of our time, right?
Like, think about it.
(04:19):
Like, how much time doessomebody actually spend walking
a co-worker through the Romansroad, right?
Like like, let's be like crazygenerous, that's a good.
You spend three hours a monthsharing the gospel.
That means that 1% of your lifematters for eternity.
I don't know about you, I findthat deeply depressing.
But more importantly, it'sreally deeply unbiblical.
(04:41):
And so I wrote this book tohelp readers see how 100% of
their time can matter foreternity.
Every zoom meeting you lead,every Uber you drive, every
story you write, every diaperyou change is, as the apostle
Paul says in 1st Corinthians1558, not in vain.
(05:01):
So that's the why behind thisbook to help a believer see how
their work matters for eternityeven when they're not quote
unquote sharing the gospel.
Doug Smith (05:10):
Yeah, it's so good, and I'm on mission with you.
You know, I work at a homelessrescue mission in our city and
so literally I talk to leadersall the time they're like, wow,
it must be so amazing to get todo God's work every day.
I wish I could.
And I'm just like you'retotally missing it.
And so to that person that hasthat common response to me you
know, how can they start to seemore beyond just witnessing
(05:31):
their jobs as mattering foreternity?
Jordan Raynor (05:33):
Oh, man, how much time do we have?
Uh, we can take a long time Now, in fact, let me give you, let
me give you the quick answeryeah, language matters, words
matter.
So let's get really clear whatwe're talking about, because
that person that comes to you islike oh Doug, you're doing
God's work.
What they're saying is, yourwork is sacred, doug, and my job
as an investment banker issecular.
Doug Smith (05:55):
That's the term I hear thrown around all the time.
Jordan Raynor (05:57):
That word secular literally means without God.
But if you are a Christian whobelieves that you have the Holy
Spirit living inside of you, theonly thing you need to do to
instantly make your quoteunquote secular workplace sacred
is walk through the front dooror log on to Zoom.
(06:20):
Right now, some work is clearlyoff limits for those who follow
Jesus, right, but I'm gonna goahead and assume that our
listeners aren't, like you know,peddling pornography or
exploiting the poor, doingsomething that overtly
contradicts God's word.
And if that's true and you'redoing your best to live unto God
, then, in the words of CharlesSpurgeon, nothing is secular,
(06:41):
everything is sacred, right?
I think the more interestingquestion, the more life changing
question, is okay.
How does that sacred work youdo as a barista or working with
the homeless, or running a forprofit venture?
How does it matter beyond thepresent?
How does it matter for eternity?
And that's the question I'mreally sinking my teeth into
with this project.
Doug Smith (07:01):
Yeah, and in the book I just thought this was
fascinating to speak more onthat you said the Great
Commission, which we all know isindeed great.
It's just not only Can youexpand on that, man, I just the
light bulb went off when I readthat statement.
Jordan Raynor (07:14):
I was like, wow, talk more about that I think
this might be the most deeplyentrenched lie in the church
today and oh, by the way, it's abrand new lie in church history
.
Prior to 400 years ago, nobodyinterpreted Jesus' command, to
quote unquote go and makedisciples, what we call the
Great Commission, as theexclusive mission of the church,
and I would argue there aresome really big problems with
(07:38):
treating it as the onlycommission right.
Let me just share three ofthose problems with you real
quickly.
Number one Jesus never told usit was the only thing he called
us to do in that text.
In Matthew 28, jesus said goand make disciples of all the
nations and teach them to obeyeverything that I have commanded
you.
The Gospels record Jesusissuing about 50 unique commands
(08:01):
.
If Jesus meant for us tointerpret the Great Commission
as the totality of our missionin life, he could have said so,
but he didn't.
In fact, he went out of his wayto reiterate the importance of
obeying all of his teachings.
So that's the first problemwith treating the Great
Commission as the onlycommission Jesus never did.
Number two it ironically makesus less effective at the Great
Commission.
Tim Keller did some greatresearch that found that 80% or
(08:24):
more of evangelism in the earlycenturies of Christianity was
not done by ministers ormissionaries, but by mere
Christians working as farmersand tent makers and mothers.
And that was true in the earlychurch and it's likely to be
true for the foreseeable future,as non-Christians are more
(08:44):
reticent than ever to darken thedoor of a church.
Entire nations are closingtheir doors to missionaries when
the Great Commission is theonly one that we hear preaching
our churches and when the onlypeople we see on our stages at
our churches are pastors andfull-time missionaries.
It leads those of us saying inthe pews feeling guilty about
going to work in the very placesmost likely to make disciples
(09:09):
in our post-Christian context.
So let me give you one morereason why it's so promatic that
we treat the Great Commissionas the only commission.
It blocks us from seeing thefull extent to how our work
matters for eternity.
Right, and that's really theheart of this book.
If the Great Commission is theonly commission, then our work
only has value when leveraged tothe instrumental end of
evangelism.
And if our work only hasinstrumental value, again most
(09:31):
of us are wasting most of ourtime.
And so what we see throughoutscripture, from Genesis one to
Revelation 22, is that God hasgiven humankind a dual vocation,
not one commission, but two theGreat Commission to make
disciples that we see in Matthew28,.
And the first commission thatwe see in Genesis one and
(09:52):
throughline all the way toRevelation 22, simply to make
culture and make this world moreuseful for other human beings'
benefit and enjoyment.
And once you grasp that, that,this dual vocation, the Great
and First Commissions now I canstart to understand how 100% of
my time matters to God, not justthose explicitly spiritual
(10:17):
tasks of evangelism and prayer.
Doug Smith (10:19):
Yeah.
So if we're to create the worldthe way it ought to be, to
create culture that's our secondcommission.
I love that.
Now bring that down to thepeople that are listening.
Maybe they're a barista, maybethey're an investment banker.
How does what they do every dayactually create the world the
way it ought to be and actuallymatter for eternity?
Jordan Raynor (10:38):
Yeah, it's really good, really good.
So to understand this, youreally gotta go back to Genesis
one.
Genesis one, this firstcommission God gave us, is the
blueprint for what it means tobe human.
This is the blueprint for humanmission.
In Genesis one, 26 or 28, Godtakes humanity and says hey,
here's your job fill the earth,subdue it and rule over it.
(11:00):
Right?
Lots of interpretations as towhat this means, but by and
large, most people agree thatthis means to create culture and
to make the world more usefulfor other human beings' benefit
and enjoyment in a way thathonors God and his commands,
right?
So what does this look like forthe barista, right?
(11:20):
Or the entrepreneur?
It's taking the raw materialsof this world.
An entrepreneur is taking thealuminum that makes up her
MacBook, right, and the softwarethat's been created with the
raw materials of this world andis using it in a way to try to
make the world better for otherhuman beings.
And when you do that withexcellence and a heart of love
(11:43):
and in accordance with God'scommands, you're bringing God
pleasure, and his pleasure iseternal.
There's a great one of myfavorite verses, Psalm 37, 23,
says that the Lord directs thesteps of the godly and he
delights in every detail oftheir lives.
(12:04):
Every detail, not just whenyou're writing a check to a
ministry, not just when you'resharing the gospel with a
coworker.
Everything you do at work todaywith excellence and love, in a
godly way and accordance withGod's commands, brings God
pleasure.
So how does that work matterfor eternity?
Well, his pleasure is eternal.
He will remember these things.
I think they'll fuel ourconversations with the risen
(12:27):
Christ in heaven.
Right, that's how this mattersfor eternity.
Doug Smith (12:32):
Yeah, I wanted to ask more of your eternal
perspective on this, about ourlast, our work outlasting our
lives.
You know the famous quote inGladiator what we do in life
will echo in eternity.
Talk more about that.
What do you think about?
Do you think we'll work inheaven, and how our work and the
things we do at the time wehave here matter, then.
Jordan Raynor (12:51):
Yeah.
So, man, we could do a wholeepisode on a theology of heaven.
I think most people spend moretime thinking about a one week
vacation than they do thinkingabout eternity, and that's a
problem for a lot of reasons.
(13:13):
But when we do that, when wefail to think deeply about our
eternal state, it leads us toaccept wishy-washy half truths
about heaven peddled by culture,rather than the whole truths
that we find in scripture, and Iactually dedicated an entire
chapter of the sacredness ofsecular work to dispelling these
(13:34):
half truths about heaven.
One of them is that earth isour temporary home.
Right, that's kind of true, inthe sense that earth as we know
it today is our temporary home.
The whole truth is that thisearth is our temporary home
until God makes it perfect again, and it is our perfect and
permanent home.
(13:54):
You allude to another one.
There's this half truth runningaround the church today that we
will worship for eternity.
It leads people to have thiscaricature of heaven as a
glorified retirement home in theclouds where all we do is
strung a harp and lyre for everand ever.
That's not biblical at all.
(14:15):
Let me read you an excerpt fromone passage in Isaiah, chapter
65.
It's one of the most hopefulthings in scripture, especially
if you love your job, but evenif you hate it.
Isaiah says see, I will createa new heavens and a new earth.
This is God talking throughIsaiah I will create new heavens
and new earth.
My people will build houses anddwell in them.
(14:36):
They'll plant vineyards and eattheir fruits.
My chosen ones will long enjoythe work of their hands and they
will not labor in vain.
God's word does not say that wewill sing, lord, I lift your
name on high forever and ever,or recline in a hammock forever
and ever.
It says that we will work withChrist and for him forever and
(14:59):
ever.
Only this is work as it wasalways meant to be in the Garden
of Eden, right.
It is work redeemed, restored.
It's all of your best days atwork and none of the bad ones.
It is work that is challengingbut satisfying, difficult but
fruitful all honey and no bees.
And if you love your job, man,that should fire you up for
(15:21):
eternity.
And even if you hate your job,it should get you excited
because your final destinationis the work that, deep down in
your soul, you know you weremade to do but, for whatever
reason, couldn't do in this life.
That's more than likely whatyou're gonna be spending your
time doing forever and ever, ina perfect state.
Doug Smith (15:41):
Yeah, I'm curious.
You know I'm really big onfaithfulness.
I define faithfulness as doingthe best you can with what God
puts in your hand at the moment.
There's several times whereJesus said man, my good and
faithful servant, you've beenfaithful over litter.
Now I'm gonna make you rulerover much.
Do you feel like the way thatwe are faithful or the way that
we do the work here is gonnadetermine our position?
(16:02):
Not that it's gonna be aboutposition I don't wanna sound
like it's all about title but doyou feel like the level of
responsibility we'll get then issomewhat relying on how we use
what's given to us now?
Jordan Raynor (16:13):
I think scripture is abundantly clear that, yes,
that is 100% true.
Listen, if you are trusting inJesus Christ alone for the
forgiveness of your sins, yourentrance into the kingdom of
heaven is perfectly secure, andall of our entrance, all of our
admission tickets look exactlythe same.
That said, the rewards that weexperience for eternity are not
(16:35):
created equal at all, and one ofthose rewards you just alluded
to one of them in the parable ofthe minus that Jesus tells is
increased job responsibility.
On the new earth.
Some will lead, others willfollow.
Some will, I believe, belaunching rocket ships to
explore the new heavens, whileothers are on the ground, you
(16:56):
know, creating the rocket ships,whatever that is.
We have varying rewards andresponsibilities on the newer,
based on how we steward thislife right, which would motivate
us to steward it really, reallywell.
I think this is what part ofwhat Paul was getting at in
Colossians, chapter three,verses 23 through 24.
He says whatever you do, workat it with all your heart as
(17:18):
working for the Lord, not forhuman masters, since you know
that you will receive aninheritance from the Lord as a
reward.
That inheritance is salvation.
But there are eternal rewardsattached to how we work in this
life, and one of those arevarying levels of leadership and
responsibility on the new earth.
(17:38):
I talked to Johnny EricksonTodd up when I was writing this
book.
She said something I'll neverforget.
She's like I wanna live everyday of this life so that I can
be most useful to King Jesus inthe next one.
Like, yes, that's the idea here.
Doug Smith (17:58):
So I wanna bring that back to today, when I first
started getting exposed to someof these concepts.
It changed everything and towake up excited every day and to
realize that my work could besacred.
I mean, they say if you enjoyyour work, you'll never work a
day in your life In some ways.
Can you talk about the impactthat starting to get revelation
and actually starting to see allwork as sacred what impact does
(18:19):
that actually have on peoplethat you've seen you work with
people all the time, mentorpeople.
What have you seen in people'slives that has transformed as a
result of getting some of thisin their hearts?
Jordan Raynor (18:28):
Yeah, these people and I know because I was
one of them become fully aliveMonday through Friday.
So many Christians are walkingaround today believing that, if
they're honest, less than 1% oftheir life really matters in the
grand scheme of eternity.
But when you can go to thatperson, look at him in the eye
(18:50):
bag.
No, no, no, no, no.
Look to scripture.
Look at God's plan for work.
Look at what he made you to do.
You're doing the very thing hemade you to do.
See Genesis one, and I think heredeemed you to do.
See Ephesians, chapter two.
It makes them become fullyalive and oh, by the way, fully
alive.
People attract the lost likecraft coffee attracts hipsters
(19:13):
right Like this is what theworld is craving for human
beings fully alive and fullyengaged in the work that God
created them to do.
So that's number one.
It makes them fully alive, itencourages them to just keep
doing the work that they've beendoing right and view it as a
sacred space.
But number two, I think, whenyou understand this, I think the
(19:34):
natural implication ofunderstanding that your work
matters for eternity is achallenge to make it matter more
.
Right.
Like all work, all good workmatters for eternity.
Not all work at matters equallyfor eternity.
In other words, you can havetwo marketing managers at the
same company.
We're both Christians, both oftheir work is making some
(19:55):
contribution to eternity, butone is intentionally trying to
make it matter more.
How?
By working in accordance withGod's commands, to earn more
eternal rewards, by communingwith God as she does the work
right that brings him eternalpleasure.
So the net of this book, thenet of this message is hey, be
(20:15):
wildly encouraged that your worktoday matters deeply to God,
but also be challenged to makeit matter more to spend this
rounding error of a life ratherthan to save it right, because
all of us should be optimizingfor the eternal.
That's just good investmentadvice.
Doug Smith (20:32):
Yeah, so in optimizing for the eternal, I am
curious when you consulted andencouraged people on job choice
whether it's someone you know, ayoung person right out of
college considering what theywant their path to be, or maybe
someone who just starts hearingabout this, maybe they are the
investment banker they alwaysthought, hey, once I get enough
money, then I'm gonna go intofull-time ministry.
How does one make careerdecisions with this, with
(20:55):
eternity in mind and sacred work?
Jordan Raynor (20:58):
That's a good question.
I'll say this I don't think Godcares nearly as much about what
we do vocationally, which jobswe choose, which jobs we take as
he does, who we are as we dothe job, how we do the job and
why we do it right.
(21:18):
And I think this is part of whythe apostle Paul in 1
Corinthians 7,.
The apostle Paul is writing toa group of new believers and
he's anticipating their questionof okay, man, I'm a Christian,
I understand my life matters foreach other.
What now?
Right, what does this mean formy family?
What does this meanvocationally?
And he says in 1 Corinthians 7,20, hey, let every man abide in
(21:40):
the same calling wherein he wascalled.
Each one should remain in thecondition in which he was called
.
In other words, paul sayingdon't change jobs, stay exactly
where you at, don't change thework, but change your
relationship to the work.
Now work is no longer aboutmaking me famous, making me rich
(22:06):
, glorifying myself.
But I'm gonna go back to thework and figure out how in the
world can I do this in a waythat contributes to the
flourishing of other people?
Now, that'll lead some peopleon some jobs to quit those jobs,
right.
If you come to Jesus and you'recurrently working in a company
that's marketing tobaccoproducts to underage kids, doing
(22:31):
something illegal, right, yeah,you're probably called to lead
that job, but those instancesare few and far between.
I think, about Jesus'interaction with Zacchaeus.
Zacchaeus was a tax collector,one of the most hated
professions of that day.
Doug Smith (22:46):
And when.
Jordan Raynor (22:47):
Zacchaeus started to follow Jesus.
Jesus did not say okay,Zacchaeus, you know what this
means go to the office, turn inyour letter of resignation and
come follow me.
In quote unquote full-timeministry.
Now Zacchaeus says hey, I'mgonna repent of the way I've
been doing this work, I'm nolonger gonna exploit the poor,
and Jesus blesses him and sendshim back into that vocation.
(23:09):
So some of us are gonna makethose calls to change jobs, and
that's fine.
I just think God cares a lotmore about how we're doing the
work than what work we're doing,Because, again, for the
Christian who's living as untoGod, nothing is secular,
everything is sacred.
Yeah, and I'm curious.
Doug Smith (23:27):
I would love to hear you talk about how you view
your work and the work thatyou've chosen to do.
How do you view that as sacredand really maximizing the work
eternally?
Jordan Raynor (23:38):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, in addition to my writing,I still serve as chairman of the
board of a large tech startup,and so I think a lot about that
and the context of that.
How does that matter?
This company, we're buildingsoftware, right, like we're not
saving souls, we're not feedingthe homeless.
How is that work sacred?
It's sacred because, again,this is what God made us to do.
(24:01):
We are in this tech startupmaking the earth more useful for
other human beings benefitingenjoyment.
How am I making it more sacred?
How am I making it matter foreternity?
I'll tell you a couple of ways.
Number one I'm always lookingfor ways of okay, where are we
out of step with God's commandsin this venture?
Where are we not explicitlyexploiting the poor, but where
(24:21):
can we proactively bless thepoor through this venture?
That's number one.
Number two I'm always lookingfor opportunities, as I'm doing
that work, to do it with God.
Right, we talk so much aboutdoing our work for God, we
forget to do it with Him.
So what does that mean?
Practically, before I log on toa Zoom meeting for a board call
(24:41):
, right, I'm inviting the Lord'spresence into that meeting.
I'm ensuring that I'm doingthat work with Him and not just
for Him, and that brings Himeternal pleasure.
I'll give you one more, a thirdone.
I'm always looking foropportunities to move
conversations with thenon-Christians that I work with
from the surface to the serious,to the spiritual, because I
(25:05):
believe that it is the work ofme.
It is mere Christians, notreligious professionals, who are
going to be most effective atthe Great Commission in this
cultural moment, and so I'maware of that.
I'm working alongsidenon-Christians, and so I'm
always looking for chances tosteer those conversations
towards spiritual things as ameans of sharing the hope that's
(25:27):
within me, that is found inChrist, the Lord.
Doug Smith (25:30):
Wow.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
Yeah, I thought you brought itall home.
I want to take a little bit ofa sidestep in the book, which is
hilarious, because I encourageeveryone to have a bucket list.
I'm a huge bucket list fan.
I have a long bucket list.
You encourage readers to makean anti-bucket list, so I'll
give you a few moments to stateyour case.
Jordan Raynor (25:49):
Listen, I've got no problem with bucket lists.
Doug Smith (25:51):
I'll say it on the front.
Jordan Raynor (25:54):
But the whole concept of a bucket list assumes
that the only chance we have toenjoy the best places and food
and experiences that this worldhas to offer is before we die
and kick the bucket.
That's a lie.
That is a lie.
The scriptures vision of heavenis not us floating on clouds.
Heaven is ultimately here onearth.
(26:14):
Heaven contains the glory ofthe nations.
Quote, end quote.
See Revelation 21, which meansevery theologian agrees the best
of human culture.
It also includes the best food.
See the book of Isaiah thattalks about the feast that we're
going to experience on the NewEarth Right.
So once we replace some ofthese half truths about heaven
peddled by culture with wholetruths that we see in scripture,
(26:36):
we see that we're going to haveall eternity to enjoy the best
food and experiences and placesthat this world has to offer.
And to go back to what wetalked about a few minutes ago,
scripture also makes clear thatyou and I are going to have
different levels of rewards foreternity.
And so, for that reason, andbecause those rewards are almost
always attached to sacrificesthat we make in the present,
(27:00):
yeah, I think more Christiansneed to be building these anti
bucket lists, these catalogs ofthings that I'm going to strive
not to do on this side ofeternity so that I can
accumulate as many eternalrewards as possible.
Let me make this real, concrete.
Let me give a personal example.
Doug Smith (27:15):
Yeah.
Jordan Raynor (27:18):
Um, I love great cities.
I love my hometown of Tampa,florida, but it's not a world
class city.
I love Washington DC.
I love London, right, andnothing fuels my soul more than
great cities, and I would lovenothing more than to live in an
urban flat in London with myfamily, right?
So why don't I do that?
(27:40):
Why do I choose to remain herein Tampa?
Well, for a lot of reasons, butone of them is that my wife and
I have parents who are notgetting any younger they're
reaching their seventies andwe're within a 10 mile radius of
all of them.
We want to be here in Tampa tocare for them as they get older.
Now, listen, I'm a selfishprick sometimes, right, that's a
(28:02):
massive sacrifice for mepersonally Right.
Yeah, and if I'm living my lifefor this life alone, man, move
our family to London would be atthe top of my bucket list.
But knowing that heaven isultimately here on earth and
that I'm going to have alleternity to explore a perfect
London and the greatest city ofall time, the new Jerusalem, I
(28:24):
put moved to London on my antibucket list because the apostle
Paul tells me in Ephesians sixthat the Lord will reward me for
whatever good I do in this life.
Well, will that include anurban flat in London, in the new
Jerusalem?
I don't know.
And listen, I'm not saying if.
If you've got moved to Londonon your bucket list, that's
wrong.
I'm just convicted that for meit is wrong and so it's on my
(28:47):
anti bucket list and I'mtrusting.
Based on the promises I seeabout eternal rewards, based on
what scripture says about theunbelievable reality of the new
earth and how epic it's going tobe, I'm okay putting on the
anti bucket list and sacrificingthat right now.
Doug Smith (29:04):
No, that's so good.
And, to be honest, that reallychallenged me because I am the
guy of like we got to do it alland and again.
You do sometimes have theviewpoint of heaven like, hey,
you know what's that?
And Jesus said it's paradise.
So who even knows?
You can't even imagine whatthat would be like.
But that really challenges mebecause it is like, hey, this
isn't all there is and we can'teven imagine what kind of bucket
list things will be able to do.
(29:26):
The other thing I want you totalk about we talked about this
a little bit in our conversationlast time.
But you know, you said, whensomeone starts getting ahold of
seeing work as sacred, theybecome fully alive.
And unfortunately well,fortunately, because of your
work, people are getting thatrevelation.
But oftentimes it's not tilllater in life that we hear stuff
like you're writing.
I know for me, I was probably26, 27 when I started getting
(29:47):
exposed to that.
But now, once we are, we havean opportunity to share that
with our children, if we haveyoung kids.
I have four kids under sevenand you wrote a kids book which
I would love for you to pitchagain, because I probably read
as my kids at least twice amonth.
It's one of our favorites inour household.
But talk to parents again aboutgetting the subject of
sacredness of work into theirkids because, by the way, it's
(30:08):
so important because our kidshear so many negative messages
about work, sometimes from theirparents.
Jordan Raynor (30:14):
If we're honest, right.
Take stock of what you've saidabout your work and your boss,
our underkids in the last weekand put that in the positive
negative column and check thatout.
But also because we just don'thave this biblical story of work
and so I wrote this kids book,called the creator and you, to
(30:37):
help my kids see in less thanthree minutes what God's plan
for work was in the beginning.
You know it centers around theGenesis one account, which I've
read a dozen children's books tomy kids on Genesis one.
They're all the exact sameright.
God created this on day one,that on day two, day three, four
, five, six, the end.
(30:58):
And they drive me bonkersbecause the sixth day was not
the end of creation.
The sixth day, according toGenesis one, versus 26 through
28, is when God passed the batonof creation to humanity and
told us to go fill the earth,subdue it and create like he did
(31:19):
in those first six days.
However, you decide to interpretdays right and as a game
changer this is the firstcommission that we talked about
a few minutes ago and so I wrotethis kids book to help my girls
and all the kids out there tosee it, but honestly, I wrote it
as much for parents, as I didfor kids, because parents don't
get this.
Parents don't understand that,long before the great commission
(31:40):
, there's the first commissionto just make more of this world.
That never, ever, ever, everends.
We just read Isaiah 65.
What are we gonna be doing foreternity?
The first commission ofcreating culture and building
houses and planting vineyards,right, and when you get that, oh
my gosh, that's a game changer.
Now I can see the work of adoctor, the work of an
entrepreneur, the work of anartist, the work of a spaceship
(32:03):
engineer, the work of a pastor,the work for COVID, full-time
missionary.
All of it is sacred, right.
And so, man, that book justkeeps selling and selling and
selling to create it with you.
And it's been such a blessing tome to hear from parents like I
am so grateful that my kids getto get this H5 instead of H35 or
55.
Doug Smith (32:23):
Yeah, and I didn't even think about it from that
context.
But I think one reason I loveit so much is it fires me up
every time I read it.
Jordan Raynor (32:29):
So you're talking about the impact on parents, I
mean man I went when we werejust talking about book
publishing before we pressrecord.
When I pitched this book toRandom House, I was like, hey,
listen, yeah, technically thisis a kid's book, but this
project has to feel like a Pixarmovie that makes five year olds
(32:49):
laugh and smile and 55 yearolds weep.
And if we haven't done that,we've lost.
And thank God they found agreat illustrator who knocked
out the park.
The art in this book is not atall cute.
It is not cartoony, it is epicand will make you cry like a
five year old girl.
Doug Smith (33:09):
It's incredible Well mission accomplished on that.
I have one or two morequestions, but I do want people
listening to this.
I know obviously they can getthe book.
We'll include links to thateverywhere, but you do a lot
around this work.
You have email.
What are the best ways thatpeople want to learn more and
connect with you?
What are some ways they can dothat?
Jordan Raynor (33:25):
Yeah, we get tons of free content to help you
connect your faith with yourwork at JordanRaynorcom
J-O-R-D-A-N-R-A-Y-N-O-R.
com, including a weekly podcastcalled the Mere Christians
podcast that explores how thegospel shaping the work of Mere
Christians out in the worldthose of us who aren't religious
professionals but work asentrepreneurs, baristas and
accountants.
(33:45):
We also have a weeklydevotional that goes out every
Monday morning called the WordBefore Work, that you can get
for free.
And then, yeah, this bookthat's releasing January 30th of
2024, the Sacredness of SecularWork Four Ways your Job Matters
for Eternity, even when you'renot sharing the gospel, so long
as titled All Time.
You will not remember it.
So if you don't remember it,just search Jordan Raynor on
(34:08):
Amazon or just go toJordanRaynor.
com.
Doug Smith (34:11):
Yeah, you also mentioned a subject in the book.
You argue that Christians don'tgrow the kingdom of God, but we
can scratch off glimpses of it.
Talk more about that.
It's fascinating.
Jordan Raynor (34:23):
Yeah, I'm referring to the scratch off
paper that our kids love thatmakes my house covered in black
residue.
I'm not talking about gamblingscratch off, so please don't
send me your angry emails.
You know, on the surface thesescratch offs look like dull
pieces of black paper, but whenour kids rub the surface with a
(34:43):
stylus or with a quarter orwhatever, the thin dark veil
fades away and it reveals thisbeautiful picture on the other
side.
That's the best picture I'veever seen of what our work has
the power to do.
Today.
Through our jobs, we can serveas a stylus of sorts, scratching
off the darkness of this world,anything that doesn't belong in
(35:06):
the eternal kingdom of God, andrevealing glimpses of what does
belong on the other side.
Let me give you a few examples.
Make this a little morepractical.
When you, as an attorney, fightfor justice in the courts,
you're scratching off a glimpseof the day when the God of
justice will reign supreme hereon earth CISA, chapter 30.
(35:30):
When let's take a differentvocation that the world deems as
useless but God does not.
Let's say you're a hairstylistand you're working every day
just to create beauty with yourclients, you're scratching off a
day, a glimpse of the day whenGod's beauty abundant, senseless
beauty, will abound CIR 21.
(35:53):
When you, as an executive, workwithout fear in the face of
insane challenges, when the restof your team is anxious and
worried about everything, you'rescratching off a glimpse of the
day when anxiety will be nomore.
You're rubbing off more of thatscratch off and giving people a
glimpse of something eternaland true.
Doug Smith (36:15):
Come on, keep preaching, Go all day man.
Yeah well, I will just leavethis open-ended as we start to
wrap.
But anything else you want toleave leaders with or anything
else you want to say around thesubject that would add value,
yeah, I'll say this.
Jordan Raynor (36:28):
We've been talking a lot about how much our
work matters to God, and itdoes.
The story of scripture is thatwork is a good, god-ordained
thing, but nothing but Jesus.
Jesus is an ultimately goodthing.
Our work matters deeply to God,but at the end of the day,
(36:51):
until Christ comes and makes allthings new, including the world
of work, even if you have adream job, work's gonna
disappoint you.
The ultimate good is found inChrist alone.
So embrace the goodness of work, embrace the eternal
significance of work, but let'snot make work an idol.
That is the supremely importantthing in our life.
(37:13):
I think that's the danger inthis.
Your work matters.
Conversation is that we treatthis good, created thing of work
as an ultimate thing.
The creator is the ultimatething, not the created thing of
work, as good and as wonderfulas it is.
Doug Smith (37:29):
Yeah well, jordan, thank you for your sacred work.
It matters.
It's making a difference in allof our lives.
It's impacted my life and ifyou're listening to this and
have enjoyed this conversation,we'll include a link.
But we had a previousconversation with Jordan around
his last book.
He has seven books out there.
He mentioned all the other waysyou can connect.
He's incredibly generous withhis time and who he is, and I
can't encourage you enough toconnect with him.
Thanks again, jordan.
(37:50):
I look forward to doing thisagain sometime.
Thanks, doug.
Well, hey, leader, thank you somuch for listening to my
conversation with Jordan Raynor.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at l3leadership.
org/407.
And, as always, I like to endevery episode with a quote, and
today I'll quote Patrick BetDavid, who said this.
He said you are one rightformula away from changing your
(38:13):
life.
I've been thinking about thatall the time and thinking about
what formulas I can use in eacharea of my life to maximize the
impact of them.
So I hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
Know that, my wife Laura and Ilove you, we believe in you and
I say it every episode.
But don't quit.
Keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
We'll talk to you next episode.
Hey, leader, and welcome to another episode of
the L3 Leadership Podcast, wherewe are obsessed with helping
you grow to your maximumpotential and to maximize the
impact of your leadership.
My name is Doug Smith and I amyour host, and today's episode
is brought to you by my friendsat Beratung Advisors.
We also recorded this episodelive from the new Birgo Realty
Studio.
If you're new to the podcast,welcome.
I'm so glad that you're hereand I hope that you enjoy our
(00:27):
content and become a subscriber.
Note that you can also watchall of our episodes over on our
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And, as always, if the podcasthas impacted your life and
you've been listening to us fora while, it would mean the world
to me if you would leave us arating and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify or whateverapp you listen to podcast
through.
That really does help us togrow our audience, and we made
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There is a link in the shownotes that says rate this
(00:49):
podcast.
You can just click that andit'll take you right to where
you need to go and show you howto do it.
So thank you in advance forthat.
Well, leader.
In today's episode, you'regoing to hear a returning guest,
my friend Jordan Raynor, andwe're going to be talking all
about his new book, which iscalled the Sacredness of Secular
Work Four Ways.
Your Job Matters for Eternityand if you enjoy this episode
(01:10):
again, you can go back andlisten to our first conversation
in episode number 351.
Jordan is brilliant and has somuch value to add.
If you're unfamiliar with him,let me just tell you a little
bit about him.
Jordan Raynor is the leadingvoice of the faith and work
movement.
Through his bestselling booksthe Creator in You, Redeeming
Your Time, Master of One andCall to Create, the Mir
Christians podcast and hisweekly devotionals, Jordan has
(01:32):
helped millions of Christians inevery country on earth connect
their work to the gospel.
In addition to his writing,Jordan serves as the executive
chairman of Threshold 360venture-backed a tech startup
which Jordan previously ran aCEO.
Following a string ofsuccessful ventures of his own,
Jordan has been twice selectedas a Google Fellow and served in
the White House under PresidentGeorge W Bush.
(01:53):
A sixth generation Floridian,Jordan lives in Tampa with his
wife and their three youngdaughters.
The Rainers are proud membersof the Church of Odessa and in
our conversation today, you'regoing to hear Jordan talk all
about his new book, theSacredness of Secular Work Four
Ways.
Your Job Matters for Eternityand I think you're going to love
this conversation.
But before we dive in, just afew announcements.
This episode of the L3Leadership Podcast is sponsored
(02:16):
by Beratung Advisors.
The financial advisors atBeratung Advisors help educate
and empower clients to makeinformed financial decisions.
You can find out how BeratungAdvisors can help you develop a
customized financial plan foryour financial future by
visiting their website atbaratungadvisorscom that's
B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisors.
com.
Securities and investmentproducts and services offered
(02:39):
through LPL Financial, member ofFINRA and SIPC.
Beratung Advisors, LPLFinancial and L3 Leadership are
separate entities.
I also want to thank our sponsor, Henne Jewelers.
They're a jeweler owned by myfriend and mentor, John Henne,
and my wife Laura and I got ourengagement and wedding rings
through Henne Jewelers and hadan incredible experience.
And not only do they have greatjewelry, but they also invest
in people.
In fact, for every couple thatcomes in engaged, they give them
(03:01):
a book to help them prepare formarriage, and we just love that
.
So if you're in need of a goodjeweler, check out HenneJewelers
.
com.
And with all that being said,here's my conversation with
Jordan Raynor.
Well, Jordan Raynor, it isgreat to have you back on the
podcast, it's great to see youagain, and you've been such a
friend and such an encouragementin my life.
And you have a new book comingout, book number seven.
(03:21):
I don't know, I've lost track.
You are a beast, my friend, I'msuper.
You're just an inspiration tome.
But the title of this book iscalled the Sacredness of Secular
Work, and we'll just startbroadly.
Why did you write this book andwhat do you want listeners and
readers to get out of it?
Jordan Raynor (03:37):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And, Doug man, it's so fun tohang with you.
I always love getting toconverse with you.
Yeah, I wrote this book becauseyou know I spend most of my
time these days creating contentthat helps Christians see how
the work matters for eternity.
And when you tell anentrepreneur or a marketer or a
barista that their work quoteunquote matters for eternity,
(03:59):
the most typical response youhear is oh amen, my job is my
mission field and I'm like yeah,yes, that's, of course, true,
but if the only way our workmatters to God is because we can
leverage our jobs to quoteunquote share the gospel, then,
frankly, most of us are wastingmost of our time, right?
Like, think about it.
(04:19):
Like, how much time doessomebody actually spend walking
a co-worker through the Romansroad, right?
Like like, let's be like crazygenerous, that's a good.
You spend three hours a monthsharing the gospel.
That means that 1% of your lifematters for eternity.
I don't know about you, I findthat deeply depressing.
But more importantly, it'sreally deeply unbiblical.
(04:41):
And so I wrote this book tohelp readers see how 100% of
their time can matter foreternity.
Every zoom meeting you lead,every Uber you drive, every
story you write, every diaperyou change is, as the apostle
Paul says in 1st Corinthians1558, not in vain.
(05:01):
So that's the why behind thisbook to help a believer see how
their work matters for eternityeven when they're not quote
unquote sharing the gospel.
Doug Smith (05:10):
Yeah, it's so good, and I'm on mission with you.
You know, I work at a homelessrescue mission in our city and
so literally I talk to leadersall the time they're like, wow,
it must be so amazing to get todo God's work every day.
I wish I could.
And I'm just like you'retotally missing it.
And so to that person that hasthat common response to me you
know, how can they start to seemore beyond just witnessing
(05:31):
their jobs as mattering foreternity?
Jordan Raynor (05:33):
Oh, man, how much time do we have?
Uh, we can take a long time Now, in fact, let me give you, let
me give you the quick answeryeah, language matters, words
matter.
So let's get really clear whatwe're talking about, because
that person that comes to you islike oh Doug, you're doing
God's work.
What they're saying is, yourwork is sacred, doug, and my job
as an investment banker issecular.
Doug Smith (05:55):
That's the term I hear thrown around all the time.
Jordan Raynor (05:57):
That word secular literally means without God.
But if you are a Christian whobelieves that you have the Holy
Spirit living inside of you, theonly thing you need to do to
instantly make your quoteunquote secular workplace sacred
is walk through the front dooror log on to Zoom.
(06:20):
Right now, some work is clearlyoff limits for those who follow
Jesus, right, but I'm gonna goahead and assume that our
listeners aren't, like you know,peddling pornography or
exploiting the poor, doingsomething that overtly
contradicts God's word.
And if that's true and you'redoing your best to live unto God
, then, in the words of CharlesSpurgeon, nothing is secular,
(06:41):
everything is sacred, right?
I think the more interestingquestion, the more life changing
question, is okay.
How does that sacred work youdo as a barista or working with
the homeless, or running a forprofit venture?
How does it matter beyond thepresent?
How does it matter for eternity?
And that's the question I'mreally sinking my teeth into
with this project.
Doug Smith (07:01):
Yeah, and in the book I just thought this was
fascinating to speak more onthat you said the Great
Commission, which we all know isindeed great.
It's just not only Can youexpand on that, man, I just the
light bulb went off when I readthat statement.
Jordan Raynor (07:14):
I was like, wow, talk more about that I think
this might be the most deeplyentrenched lie in the church
today and oh, by the way, it's abrand new lie in church history
.
Prior to 400 years ago, nobodyinterpreted Jesus' command, to
quote unquote go and makedisciples, what we call the
Great Commission, as theexclusive mission of the church,
and I would argue there aresome really big problems with
(07:38):
treating it as the onlycommission right.
Let me just share three ofthose problems with you real
quickly.
Number one Jesus never told usit was the only thing he called
us to do in that text.
In Matthew 28, jesus said goand make disciples of all the
nations and teach them to obeyeverything that I have commanded
you.
The Gospels record Jesusissuing about 50 unique commands
(08:01):
.
If Jesus meant for us tointerpret the Great Commission
as the totality of our missionin life, he could have said so,
but he didn't.
In fact, he went out of his wayto reiterate the importance of
obeying all of his teachings.
So that's the first problemwith treating the Great
Commission as the onlycommission Jesus never did.
Number two it ironically makesus less effective at the Great
Commission.
Tim Keller did some greatresearch that found that 80% or
(08:24):
more of evangelism in the earlycenturies of Christianity was
not done by ministers ormissionaries, but by mere
Christians working as farmersand tent makers and mothers.
And that was true in the earlychurch and it's likely to be
true for the foreseeable future,as non-Christians are more
(08:44):
reticent than ever to darken thedoor of a church.
Entire nations are closingtheir doors to missionaries when
the Great Commission is theonly one that we hear preaching
our churches and when the onlypeople we see on our stages at
our churches are pastors andfull-time missionaries.
It leads those of us saying inthe pews feeling guilty about
going to work in the very placesmost likely to make disciples
(09:09):
in our post-Christian context.
So let me give you one morereason why it's so promatic that
we treat the Great Commissionas the only commission.
It blocks us from seeing thefull extent to how our work
matters for eternity.
Right, and that's really theheart of this book.
If the Great Commission is theonly commission, then our work
only has value when leveraged tothe instrumental end of
evangelism.
And if our work only hasinstrumental value, again most
(09:31):
of us are wasting most of ourtime.
And so what we see throughoutscripture, from Genesis one to
Revelation 22, is that God hasgiven humankind a dual vocation,
not one commission, but two theGreat Commission to make
disciples that we see in Matthew28,.
And the first commission thatwe see in Genesis one and
(09:52):
throughline all the way toRevelation 22, simply to make
culture and make this world moreuseful for other human beings'
benefit and enjoyment.
And once you grasp that, that,this dual vocation, the Great
and First Commissions now I canstart to understand how 100% of
my time matters to God, not justthose explicitly spiritual
(10:17):
tasks of evangelism and prayer.
Doug Smith (10:19):
Yeah.
So if we're to create the worldthe way it ought to be, to
create culture that's our secondcommission.
I love that.
Now bring that down to thepeople that are listening.
Maybe they're a barista, maybethey're an investment banker.
How does what they do every dayactually create the world the
way it ought to be and actuallymatter for eternity?
Jordan Raynor (10:38):
Yeah, it's really good, really good.
So to understand this, youreally gotta go back to Genesis
one.
Genesis one, this firstcommission God gave us, is the
blueprint for what it means tobe human.
This is the blueprint for humanmission.
In Genesis one, 26 or 28, Godtakes humanity and says hey,
here's your job fill the earth,subdue it and rule over it.
(11:00):
Right?
Lots of interpretations as towhat this means, but by and
large, most people agree thatthis means to create culture and
to make the world more usefulfor other human beings' benefit
and enjoyment in a way thathonors God and his commands,
right?
So what does this look like forthe barista, right?
(11:20):
Or the entrepreneur?
It's taking the raw materialsof this world.
An entrepreneur is taking thealuminum that makes up her
MacBook, right, and the softwarethat's been created with the
raw materials of this world andis using it in a way to try to
make the world better for otherhuman beings.
And when you do that withexcellence and a heart of love
(11:43):
and in accordance with God'scommands, you're bringing God
pleasure, and his pleasure iseternal.
There's a great one of myfavorite verses, Psalm 37, 23,
says that the Lord directs thesteps of the godly and he
delights in every detail oftheir lives.
(12:04):
Every detail, not just whenyou're writing a check to a
ministry, not just when you'resharing the gospel with a
coworker.
Everything you do at work todaywith excellence and love, in a
godly way and accordance withGod's commands, brings God
pleasure.
So how does that work matterfor eternity?
Well, his pleasure is eternal.
He will remember these things.
I think they'll fuel ourconversations with the risen
(12:27):
Christ in heaven.
Right, that's how this mattersfor eternity.
Doug Smith (12:32):
Yeah, I wanted to ask more of your eternal
perspective on this, about ourlast, our work outlasting our
lives.
You know the famous quote inGladiator what we do in life
will echo in eternity.
Talk more about that.
What do you think about?
Do you think we'll work inheaven, and how our work and the
things we do at the time wehave here matter, then.
Jordan Raynor (12:51):
Yeah.
So, man, we could do a wholeepisode on a theology of heaven.
I think most people spend moretime thinking about a one week
vacation than they do thinkingabout eternity, and that's a
problem for a lot of reasons.
(13:13):
But when we do that, when wefail to think deeply about our
eternal state, it leads us toaccept wishy-washy half truths
about heaven peddled by culture,rather than the whole truths
that we find in scripture, and Iactually dedicated an entire
chapter of the sacredness ofsecular work to dispelling these
(13:34):
half truths about heaven.
One of them is that earth isour temporary home.
Right, that's kind of true, inthe sense that earth as we know
it today is our temporary home.
The whole truth is that thisearth is our temporary home
until God makes it perfect again, and it is our perfect and
permanent home.
(13:54):
You allude to another one.
There's this half truth runningaround the church today that we
will worship for eternity.
It leads people to have thiscaricature of heaven as a
glorified retirement home in theclouds where all we do is
strung a harp and lyre for everand ever.
That's not biblical at all.
(14:15):
Let me read you an excerpt fromone passage in Isaiah, chapter
65.
It's one of the most hopefulthings in scripture, especially
if you love your job, but evenif you hate it.
Isaiah says see, I will createa new heavens and a new earth.
This is God talking throughIsaiah I will create new heavens
and new earth.
My people will build houses anddwell in them.
(14:36):
They'll plant vineyards and eattheir fruits.
My chosen ones will long enjoythe work of their hands and they
will not labor in vain.
God's word does not say that wewill sing, lord, I lift your
name on high forever and ever,or recline in a hammock forever
and ever.
It says that we will work withChrist and for him forever and
(14:59):
ever.
Only this is work as it wasalways meant to be in the Garden
of Eden, right.
It is work redeemed, restored.
It's all of your best days atwork and none of the bad ones.
It is work that is challengingbut satisfying, difficult but
fruitful all honey and no bees.
And if you love your job, man,that should fire you up for
(15:21):
eternity.
And even if you hate your job,it should get you excited
because your final destinationis the work that, deep down in
your soul, you know you weremade to do but, for whatever
reason, couldn't do in this life.
That's more than likely whatyou're gonna be spending your
time doing forever and ever, ina perfect state.
Doug Smith (15:41):
Yeah, I'm curious.
You know I'm really big onfaithfulness.
I define faithfulness as doingthe best you can with what God
puts in your hand at the moment.
There's several times whereJesus said man, my good and
faithful servant, you've beenfaithful over litter.
Now I'm gonna make you rulerover much.
Do you feel like the way thatwe are faithful or the way that
we do the work here is gonnadetermine our position?
(16:02):
Not that it's gonna be aboutposition I don't wanna sound
like it's all about title but doyou feel like the level of
responsibility we'll get then issomewhat relying on how we use
what's given to us now?
Jordan Raynor (16:13):
I think scripture is abundantly clear that, yes,
that is 100% true.
Listen, if you are trusting inJesus Christ alone for the
forgiveness of your sins, yourentrance into the kingdom of
heaven is perfectly secure, andall of our entrance, all of our
admission tickets look exactlythe same.
That said, the rewards that weexperience for eternity are not
(16:35):
created equal at all, and one ofthose rewards you just alluded
to one of them in the parable ofthe minus that Jesus tells is
increased job responsibility.
On the new earth.
Some will lead, others willfollow.
Some will, I believe, belaunching rocket ships to
explore the new heavens, whileothers are on the ground, you
(16:56):
know, creating the rocket ships,whatever that is.
We have varying rewards andresponsibilities on the newer,
based on how we steward thislife right, which would motivate
us to steward it really, reallywell.
I think this is what part ofwhat Paul was getting at in
Colossians, chapter three,verses 23 through 24.
He says whatever you do, workat it with all your heart as
(17:18):
working for the Lord, not forhuman masters, since you know
that you will receive aninheritance from the Lord as a
reward.
That inheritance is salvation.
But there are eternal rewardsattached to how we work in this
life, and one of those arevarying levels of leadership and
responsibility on the new earth.
(17:38):
I talked to Johnny EricksonTodd up when I was writing this
book.
She said something I'll neverforget.
She's like I wanna live everyday of this life so that I can
be most useful to King Jesus inthe next one.
Like, yes, that's the idea here.
Doug Smith (17:58):
So I wanna bring that back to today, when I first
started getting exposed to someof these concepts.
It changed everything and towake up excited every day and to
realize that my work could besacred.
I mean, they say if you enjoyyour work, you'll never work a
day in your life In some ways.
Can you talk about the impactthat starting to get revelation
and actually starting to see allwork as sacred what impact does
(18:19):
that actually have on peoplethat you've seen you work with
people all the time, mentorpeople.
What have you seen in people'slives that has transformed as a
result of getting some of thisin their hearts?
Jordan Raynor (18:28):
Yeah, these people and I know because I was
one of them become fully aliveMonday through Friday.
So many Christians are walkingaround today believing that, if
they're honest, less than 1% oftheir life really matters in the
grand scheme of eternity.
But when you can go to thatperson, look at him in the eye
(18:50):
bag.
No, no, no, no, no.
Look to scripture.
Look at God's plan for work.
Look at what he made you to do.
You're doing the very thing hemade you to do.
See Genesis one, and I think heredeemed you to do.
See Ephesians, chapter two.
It makes them become fullyalive and oh, by the way, fully
alive.
People attract the lost likecraft coffee attracts hipsters
(19:13):
right Like this is what theworld is craving for human
beings fully alive and fullyengaged in the work that God
created them to do.
So that's number one.
It makes them fully alive, itencourages them to just keep
doing the work that they've beendoing right and view it as a
sacred space.
But number two, I think, whenyou understand this, I think the
(19:34):
natural implication ofunderstanding that your work
matters for eternity is achallenge to make it matter more
.
Right.
Like all work, all good workmatters for eternity.
Not all work at matters equallyfor eternity.
In other words, you can havetwo marketing managers at the
same company.
We're both Christians, both oftheir work is making some
(19:55):
contribution to eternity, butone is intentionally trying to
make it matter more.
How?
By working in accordance withGod's commands, to earn more
eternal rewards, by communingwith God as she does the work
right that brings him eternalpleasure.
So the net of this book, thenet of this message is hey, be
(20:15):
wildly encouraged that your worktoday matters deeply to God,
but also be challenged to makeit matter more to spend this
rounding error of a life ratherthan to save it right, because
all of us should be optimizingfor the eternal.
That's just good investmentadvice.
Doug Smith (20:32):
Yeah, so in optimizing for the eternal, I am
curious when you consulted andencouraged people on job choice
whether it's someone you know, ayoung person right out of
college considering what theywant their path to be, or maybe
someone who just starts hearingabout this, maybe they are the
investment banker they alwaysthought, hey, once I get enough
money, then I'm gonna go intofull-time ministry.
How does one make careerdecisions with this, with
(20:55):
eternity in mind and sacred work?
Jordan Raynor (20:58):
That's a good question.
I'll say this I don't think Godcares nearly as much about what
we do vocationally, which jobswe choose, which jobs we take as
he does, who we are as we dothe job, how we do the job and
why we do it right.
(21:18):
And I think this is part of whythe apostle Paul in 1
Corinthians 7,.
The apostle Paul is writing toa group of new believers and
he's anticipating their questionof okay, man, I'm a Christian,
I understand my life matters foreach other.
What now?
Right, what does this mean formy family?
What does this meanvocationally?
And he says in 1 Corinthians 7,20, hey, let every man abide in
(21:40):
the same calling wherein he wascalled.
Each one should remain in thecondition in which he was called
.
In other words, paul sayingdon't change jobs, stay exactly
where you at, don't change thework, but change your
relationship to the work.
Now work is no longer aboutmaking me famous, making me rich
(22:06):
, glorifying myself.
But I'm gonna go back to thework and figure out how in the
world can I do this in a waythat contributes to the
flourishing of other people?
Now, that'll lead some peopleon some jobs to quit those jobs,
right.
If you come to Jesus and you'recurrently working in a company
that's marketing tobaccoproducts to underage kids, doing
(22:31):
something illegal, right, yeah,you're probably called to lead
that job, but those instancesare few and far between.
I think, about Jesus'interaction with Zacchaeus.
Zacchaeus was a tax collector,one of the most hated
professions of that day.
Doug Smith (22:46):
And when.
Jordan Raynor (22:47):
Zacchaeus started to follow Jesus.
Jesus did not say okay,Zacchaeus, you know what this
means go to the office, turn inyour letter of resignation and
come follow me.
In quote unquote full-timeministry.
Now Zacchaeus says hey, I'mgonna repent of the way I've
been doing this work, I'm nolonger gonna exploit the poor,
and Jesus blesses him and sendshim back into that vocation.
(23:09):
So some of us are gonna makethose calls to change jobs, and
that's fine.
I just think God cares a lotmore about how we're doing the
work than what work we're doing,Because, again, for the
Christian who's living as untoGod, nothing is secular,
everything is sacred.
Yeah, and I'm curious.
Doug Smith (23:27):
I would love to hear you talk about how you view
your work and the work thatyou've chosen to do.
How do you view that as sacredand really maximizing the work
eternally?
Jordan Raynor (23:38):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, in addition to my writing,I still serve as chairman of the
board of a large tech startup,and so I think a lot about that
and the context of that.
How does that matter?
This company, we're buildingsoftware, right, like we're not
saving souls, we're not feedingthe homeless.
How is that work sacred?
It's sacred because, again,this is what God made us to do.
(24:01):
We are in this tech startupmaking the earth more useful for
other human beings benefitingenjoyment.
How am I making it more sacred?
How am I making it matter foreternity?
I'll tell you a couple of ways.
Number one I'm always lookingfor ways of okay, where are we
out of step with God's commandsin this venture?
Where are we not explicitlyexploiting the poor, but where
(24:21):
can we proactively bless thepoor through this venture?
That's number one.
Number two I'm always lookingfor opportunities, as I'm doing
that work, to do it with God.
Right, we talk so much aboutdoing our work for God, we
forget to do it with Him.
So what does that mean?
Practically, before I log on toa Zoom meeting for a board call
(24:41):
, right, I'm inviting the Lord'spresence into that meeting.
I'm ensuring that I'm doingthat work with Him and not just
for Him, and that brings Himeternal pleasure.
I'll give you one more, a thirdone.
I'm always looking foropportunities to move
conversations with thenon-Christians that I work with
from the surface to the serious,to the spiritual, because I
(25:05):
believe that it is the work ofme.
It is mere Christians, notreligious professionals, who are
going to be most effective atthe Great Commission in this
cultural moment, and so I'maware of that.
I'm working alongsidenon-Christians, and so I'm
always looking for chances tosteer those conversations
towards spiritual things as ameans of sharing the hope that's
(25:27):
within me, that is found inChrist, the Lord.
Doug Smith (25:30):
Wow.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
Yeah, I thought you brought itall home.
I want to take a little bit ofa sidestep in the book, which is
hilarious, because I encourageeveryone to have a bucket list.
I'm a huge bucket list fan.
I have a long bucket list.
You encourage readers to makean anti-bucket list, so I'll
give you a few moments to stateyour case.
Jordan Raynor (25:49):
Listen, I've got no problem with bucket lists.
Doug Smith (25:51):
I'll say it on the front.
Jordan Raynor (25:54):
But the whole concept of a bucket list assumes
that the only chance we have toenjoy the best places and food
and experiences that this worldhas to offer is before we die
and kick the bucket.
That's a lie.
That is a lie.
The scriptures vision of heavenis not us floating on clouds.
Heaven is ultimately here onearth.
(26:14):
Heaven contains the glory ofthe nations.
Quote, end quote.
See Revelation 21, which meansevery theologian agrees the best
of human culture.
It also includes the best food.
See the book of Isaiah thattalks about the feast that we're
going to experience on the NewEarth Right.
So once we replace some ofthese half truths about heaven
peddled by culture with wholetruths that we see in scripture,
(26:36):
we see that we're going to haveall eternity to enjoy the best
food and experiences and placesthat this world has to offer.
And to go back to what wetalked about a few minutes ago,
scripture also makes clear thatyou and I are going to have
different levels of rewards foreternity.
And so, for that reason, andbecause those rewards are almost
always attached to sacrificesthat we make in the present,
(27:00):
yeah, I think more Christiansneed to be building these anti
bucket lists, these catalogs ofthings that I'm going to strive
not to do on this side ofeternity so that I can
accumulate as many eternalrewards as possible.
Let me make this real, concrete.
Let me give a personal example.
Doug Smith (27:15):
Yeah.
Jordan Raynor (27:18):
Um, I love great cities.
I love my hometown of Tampa,florida, but it's not a world
class city.
I love Washington DC.
I love London, right, andnothing fuels my soul more than
great cities, and I would lovenothing more than to live in an
urban flat in London with myfamily, right?
So why don't I do that?
(27:40):
Why do I choose to remain herein Tampa?
Well, for a lot of reasons, butone of them is that my wife and
I have parents who are notgetting any younger they're
reaching their seventies andwe're within a 10 mile radius of
all of them.
We want to be here in Tampa tocare for them as they get older.
Now, listen, I'm a selfishprick sometimes, right, that's a
(28:02):
massive sacrifice for mepersonally Right.
Yeah, and if I'm living my lifefor this life alone, man, move
our family to London would be atthe top of my bucket list.
But knowing that heaven isultimately here on earth and
that I'm going to have alleternity to explore a perfect
London and the greatest city ofall time, the new Jerusalem, I
(28:24):
put moved to London on my antibucket list because the apostle
Paul tells me in Ephesians sixthat the Lord will reward me for
whatever good I do in this life.
Well, will that include anurban flat in London, in the new
Jerusalem?
I don't know.
And listen, I'm not saying if.
If you've got moved to Londonon your bucket list, that's
wrong.
I'm just convicted that for meit is wrong and so it's on my
(28:47):
anti bucket list and I'mtrusting.
Based on the promises I seeabout eternal rewards, based on
what scripture says about theunbelievable reality of the new
earth and how epic it's going tobe, I'm okay putting on the
anti bucket list and sacrificingthat right now.
Doug Smith (29:04):
No, that's so good.
And, to be honest, that reallychallenged me because I am the
guy of like we got to do it alland and again.
You do sometimes have theviewpoint of heaven like, hey,
you know what's that?
And Jesus said it's paradise.
So who even knows?
You can't even imagine whatthat would be like.
But that really challenges mebecause it is like, hey, this
isn't all there is and we can'teven imagine what kind of bucket
list things will be able to do.
(29:26):
The other thing I want you totalk about we talked about this
a little bit in our conversationlast time.
But you know, you said, whensomeone starts getting ahold of
seeing work as sacred, theybecome fully alive.
And unfortunately well,fortunately, because of your
work, people are getting thatrevelation.
But oftentimes it's not tilllater in life that we hear stuff
like you're writing.
I know for me, I was probably26, 27 when I started getting
(29:47):
exposed to that.
But now, once we are, we havean opportunity to share that
with our children, if we haveyoung kids.
I have four kids under sevenand you wrote a kids book which
I would love for you to pitchagain, because I probably read
as my kids at least twice amonth.
It's one of our favorites inour household.
But talk to parents again aboutgetting the subject of
sacredness of work into theirkids because, by the way, it's
(30:08):
so important because our kidshear so many negative messages
about work, sometimes from theirparents.
Jordan Raynor (30:14):
If we're honest, right.
Take stock of what you've saidabout your work and your boss,
our underkids in the last weekand put that in the positive
negative column and check thatout.
But also because we just don'thave this biblical story of work
and so I wrote this kids book,called the creator and you, to
(30:37):
help my kids see in less thanthree minutes what God's plan
for work was in the beginning.
You know it centers around theGenesis one account, which I've
read a dozen children's books tomy kids on Genesis one.
They're all the exact sameright.
God created this on day one,that on day two, day three, four
, five, six, the end.
(30:58):
And they drive me bonkersbecause the sixth day was not
the end of creation.
The sixth day, according toGenesis one, versus 26 through
28, is when God passed the batonof creation to humanity and
told us to go fill the earth,subdue it and create like he did
(31:19):
in those first six days.
However, you decide to interpretdays right and as a game
changer this is the firstcommission that we talked about
a few minutes ago and so I wrotethis kids book to help my girls
and all the kids out there tosee it, but honestly, I wrote it
as much for parents, as I didfor kids, because parents don't
get this.
Parents don't understand that,long before the great commission
(31:40):
, there's the first commissionto just make more of this world.
That never, ever, ever, everends.
We just read Isaiah 65.
What are we gonna be doing foreternity?
The first commission ofcreating culture and building
houses and planting vineyards,right, and when you get that, oh
my gosh, that's a game changer.
Now I can see the work of adoctor, the work of an
entrepreneur, the work of anartist, the work of a spaceship
(32:03):
engineer, the work of a pastor,the work for COVID, full-time
missionary.
All of it is sacred, right.
And so, man, that book justkeeps selling and selling and
selling to create it with you.
And it's been such a blessing tome to hear from parents like I
am so grateful that my kids getto get this H5 instead of H35 or
55.
Doug Smith (32:23):
Yeah, and I didn't even think about it from that
context.
But I think one reason I loveit so much is it fires me up
every time I read it.
Jordan Raynor (32:29):
So you're talking about the impact on parents, I
mean man I went when we werejust talking about book
publishing before we pressrecord.
When I pitched this book toRandom House, I was like, hey,
listen, yeah, technically thisis a kid's book, but this
project has to feel like a Pixarmovie that makes five year olds
(32:49):
laugh and smile and 55 yearolds weep.
And if we haven't done that,we've lost.
And thank God they found agreat illustrator who knocked
out the park.
The art in this book is not atall cute.
It is not cartoony, it is epicand will make you cry like a
five year old girl.
Doug Smith (33:09):
It's incredible Well mission accomplished on that.
I have one or two morequestions, but I do want people
listening to this.
I know obviously they can getthe book.
We'll include links to thateverywhere, but you do a lot
around this work.
You have email.
What are the best ways thatpeople want to learn more and
connect with you?
What are some ways they can dothat?
Jordan Raynor (33:25):
Yeah, we get tons of free content to help you
connect your faith with yourwork at JordanRaynorcom
J-O-R-D-A-N-R-A-Y-N-O-R.
com, including a weekly podcastcalled the Mere Christians
podcast that explores how thegospel shaping the work of Mere
Christians out in the worldthose of us who aren't religious
professionals but work asentrepreneurs, baristas and
accountants.
(33:45):
We also have a weeklydevotional that goes out every
Monday morning called the WordBefore Work, that you can get
for free.
And then, yeah, this bookthat's releasing January 30th of
2024, the Sacredness of SecularWork Four Ways your Job Matters
for Eternity, even when you'renot sharing the gospel, so long
as titled All Time.
You will not remember it.
So if you don't remember it,just search Jordan Raynor on
(34:08):
Amazon or just go toJordanRaynor.
com.
Doug Smith (34:11):
Yeah, you also mentioned a subject in the book.
You argue that Christians don'tgrow the kingdom of God, but we
can scratch off glimpses of it.
Talk more about that.
It's fascinating.
Jordan Raynor (34:23):
Yeah, I'm referring to the scratch off
paper that our kids love thatmakes my house covered in black
residue.
I'm not talking about gamblingscratch off, so please don't
send me your angry emails.
You know, on the surface thesescratch offs look like dull
pieces of black paper, but whenour kids rub the surface with a
(34:43):
stylus or with a quarter orwhatever, the thin dark veil
fades away and it reveals thisbeautiful picture on the other
side.
That's the best picture I'veever seen of what our work has
the power to do.
Today.
Through our jobs, we can serveas a stylus of sorts, scratching
off the darkness of this world,anything that doesn't belong in
(35:06):
the eternal kingdom of God, andrevealing glimpses of what does
belong on the other side.
Let me give you a few examples.
Make this a little morepractical.
When you, as an attorney, fightfor justice in the courts,
you're scratching off a glimpseof the day when the God of
justice will reign supreme hereon earth CISA, chapter 30.
(35:30):
When let's take a differentvocation that the world deems as
useless but God does not.
Let's say you're a hairstylistand you're working every day
just to create beauty with yourclients, you're scratching off a
day, a glimpse of the day whenGod's beauty abundant, senseless
beauty, will abound CIR 21.
(35:53):
When you, as an executive, workwithout fear in the face of
insane challenges, when the restof your team is anxious and
worried about everything, you'rescratching off a glimpse of the
day when anxiety will be nomore.
You're rubbing off more of thatscratch off and giving people a
glimpse of something eternaland true.
Doug Smith (36:15):
Come on, keep preaching, Go all day man.
Yeah well, I will just leavethis open-ended as we start to
wrap.
But anything else you want toleave leaders with or anything
else you want to say around thesubject that would add value,
yeah, I'll say this.
Jordan Raynor (36:28):
We've been talking a lot about how much our
work matters to God, and itdoes.
The story of scripture is thatwork is a good, god-ordained
thing, but nothing but Jesus.
Jesus is an ultimately goodthing.
Our work matters deeply to God,but at the end of the day,
(36:51):
until Christ comes and makes allthings new, including the world
of work, even if you have adream job, work's gonna
disappoint you.
The ultimate good is found inChrist alone.
So embrace the goodness of work, embrace the eternal
significance of work, but let'snot make work an idol.
That is the supremely importantthing in our life.
(37:13):
I think that's the danger inthis.
Your work matters.
Conversation is that we treatthis good, created thing of work
as an ultimate thing.
The creator is the ultimatething, not the created thing of
work, as good and as wonderfulas it is.
Doug Smith (37:29):
Yeah well, jordan, thank you for your sacred work.
It matters.
It's making a difference in allof our lives.
It's impacted my life and ifyou're listening to this and
have enjoyed this conversation,we'll include a link.
But we had a previousconversation with Jordan around
his last book.
He has seven books out there.
He mentioned all the other waysyou can connect.
He's incredibly generous withhis time and who he is, and I
can't encourage you enough toconnect with him.
Thanks again, jordan.
(37:50):
I look forward to doing thisagain sometime.
Thanks, doug.
Well, hey, leader, thank you somuch for listening to my
conversation with Jordan Raynor.
I hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as I did.
You can find ways to connectwith him and links to everything
that we discussed in the shownotes at l3leadership.
org/407.
And, as always, I like to endevery episode with a quote, and
today I'll quote Patrick BetDavid, who said this.
He said you are one rightformula away from changing your
(38:13):
life.
I've been thinking about thatall the time and thinking about
what formulas I can use in eacharea of my life to maximize the
impact of them.
So I hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
Know that, my wife Laura and Ilove you, we believe in you and
I say it every episode.
But don't quit.
Keep leading.
The world desperately needsyour leadership.
We'll talk to you next episode.
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