Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Lab
Safety Gurus Podcast.
I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Sean Kaufman,
and together we're providing
safety insights for thoseworking in laboratory settings,
doing safety together.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey Sean Kaufman, how
are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Dan, I am doing good.
I have to apologize to you.
We have been trying so hard toget together on a weekly, if not
monthly, basis to do thepodcast and every single time we
have done this.
I don't think you've evercanceled, I've had to cancel on
you, so I owe you an apology.
My friend, I am so sorry.
And to the listeners Iapologize for not getting more
(00:41):
programs up and out, but we are,we're determined and we're
going to continue to rollforward.
So, dan, thanks for notquitting on me.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I will never quit on
you, sean.
This has been a greatexperience.
I think there's a lot of peoplegetting a lot out of this and,
yes, we're going to get somemore out there for you guys, and
it's coming soon, but you knownow, right now, it is the season
of Lent, so, as a Christian, Iobserve Lent.
(01:11):
I know that it's also themiddle, right about the middle
of Ramadan, that where otherpeople observe that and in other
religions as well, and you know, it is kind of a time to take a
pause and to reflect about ourrelationship with our creator.
And and and a lot of people,sean, do things like give
something up, uh, in in ramadan,you're required to do that, uh,
(01:35):
for certain times of the day.
Uh, people give up something,uh, a lot.
Not everybody, but somechristians give things up during
the season of Lent because it'sa spiritual discipline.
So, when you start to cravesomething that you've given up
maybe it's a food, maybe it's asweet, maybe there's other
things in your life that youwanted to separate yourself from
(01:56):
and then you have the desire todo that, you should go to God
and be thinking about God andtalking to God about it, instead
of worrying about that thingthat you gave up.
So that's kind of how we lookat the spiritual discipline end
of things.
But you know, we had aconversation before you and I,
sean, about.
You know, in order to changehuman behavior it always makes
me think back to lab safety.
(02:17):
But in order to change humanbehavior, I think you said you
have to like do something for ayear, and I'm just stunned by
that thought to think, wow, soif I want to be compliant with
wearing goggles and I don't meanto, like you know, drill it
down to that level right awaybut you know, does that mean
that I have to just force myselfto wear them for a year before
(02:40):
I'll just do it automatically?
Or did it take me a year tolearn to wear my seatbelt?
Because, you know, I'm oldenough to remember when you
didn't have to, before it wasthe law, and I actually was a
kid when that happened.
I remember my father strugglingabout the seatbelt.
He would not do it, and when hefinally you know, police would
maybe stop you or whatever hewould like throw it over his
(03:00):
shoulder, but not actuallybuckle, buckle it.
I'm like dad, what do you?
What do you?
Just just buckle it, but itjust he struggled and I think I
feel like it was more than ayear.
But but when I think aboutchanging culture in the
laboratory, can it really take ayear?
And and and so?
So, unlike lent or ramadan,instead of giving something up,
(03:23):
if you take something on, that'snew.
How long is it going to takeyou with that behavior and and
and it?
Does that mean that culturechange is impossible?
I don't mean to go all the waythere, but that's something.
That's kind of how it made mefeel when you said that well, I
let's let's hope not there.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I mean the.
The question that you ask is sodeep and has so many
complexities.
Dan, it really really does.
I mean, first and foremost,lent is always an important part
of the year for me as well.
It's a time where myrelationship with God is not
only examined, but I become alot closer to God.
During this season of Lent, youknow, I look at this world not
(04:02):
as the world that I belong to.
It's the world that I am livingin.
I belong at home with my father, which means I'm kind of in a
state of fast right now.
I'm here, but I want to bethere, and in between I'm going
to face a lot of frustration andI have to go through life to,
(04:22):
and hopefully, make it to theend and have an eternal
retirement with my father.
But during that time that's thetough part as we're going
through life life requires us tobe disciplined in many
different ways, and the questionyou're asking about is a
complex one.
Does it take a whole year tolearn a new habit?
(04:45):
No, does it take a whole yearto become habitual in a behavior
?
No, but here's the deal.
This is the difference.
It's about bad habits, it'sabout how long it takes for us
to extinguish and replace thosehabits that we've been doing for
so long that we learn ordiscover are not so good or not
(05:08):
so healthy.
And so you know, in stickingwith the theme of Lent and how
we came to this conversationtoday, we're talking about well,
what if we challenged peopleduring this season to identify a
new, safer behavior to do, onethat replaces an old one?
So say, for example, instead ofeating chocolate, you're going
(05:29):
to have a piece of fruit, ahealthier behavior.
Not that chocolate's bad, butif you wanted to replace one
behavior with another, let's gohealthier and we're going to
replace chocolate with a pieceof fruit.
Same goes with the laboratoryenvironment.
What can we do from abehavioral context that would
replace, maybe, bad behaviors orbehaviors that could be
(05:52):
improved upon with newer andsafer ones?
And so that's sticking with thetheme how can we reflect upon
what we currently do andidentify new ways of doing
things that are safer andhealthier for the collective
group?
So that's kind of my thoughtprocess on that, dan.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay, so I can go
along with that, but I think one
of the things you have to dofirst if I want that for
somebody in a laboratory, let'ssay the culture is not great and
the issue is I always go backto cell phones.
But let's say it's cell phoneuse, earbud use and lack of
compliance with use of PPE, justa mix of that throughout the
(06:37):
lab.
I don't think I could challengesomebody to do the right thing
without first providing somesort of education about the
potential consequences of thoseunsafe behaviors.
You know this is lab think allthe way through.
I've been working in a lab for30 years, sean, and I've never
(06:59):
buttoned my lab coat.
Well, nothing's ever happenedto me.
So people are following luck,not science, because the science
says something's eventuallygoing to happen or you're very
lucky and there are a lot oflucky people working out there.
So it's hard to convince them,even if you tell them what the
potential consequences, thatusing their cell phone in the
(07:19):
lab is pretty dangerous.
And maybe they've hadconsequences and don't know it.
Maybe they went home sick fortwo weeks or even got
hospitalized with salmonella,which for some reason tends to
be like the number one organismthat cell phones bring home from
the lab, and they neverconnected it in their head.
Oh, I got infected in the lab,but I didn't realize that's what
(07:40):
happened, or I just got sick,you know.
And so they don't connect thetwo, and so they again think
that there's no harm in thosebehaviors.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, I think you
know, when we decide sticking
with Lent and even Ramadan, wehave to look at what the
intention of a fast is.
The intention of a fast is notnecessarily just with food.
The intention or the intentionof a fast is to actually
identify things that are servingas a distraction.
(08:10):
So if we go into the faithaspect, we are identifying the
things in our lives thatdistract us from a relationship
with God.
So let's take that fastmethodology, that fast purpose,
and let's bring it into the lab.
What things distract us frombeing safe?
(08:32):
One of them, you mentioned acell phone.
That's a classic.
Maybe inattention to personalprotective equipment, maybe
inattention to hand cleanliness.
Here's the point.
If you're joining us in thismission, let's just say, during
Lent, you're going to choose todo something better in the
laboratory.
The first thing you've got todo is you really, truly have got
(08:53):
to say, okay, I'm going toidentify the things that are
distracting me from being safe,fully attentive, fully aware,
fully engaged in the work thatI'm doing.
And once I identify potentialdistractors, what I'm going to
do is I'm going to replace thosedistractors with safer
(09:14):
behaviors, and that's what I'mtalking about here.
So, for example, if we usefaith rather than being on
social media.
If I'm abstaining from socialmedia, I'm fasting from social
media.
Rather than being on socialmedia, I'm praying or I'm doing
something that brings me closerto God.
Rather than eating, I'm prayingor I'm doing something closer
(09:38):
to God.
So, rather than being on a cellphone, what can I be doing in
exchange of the cell phone tobring me closer to the work or
closer to safety in the cultureof the organization?
That's kind of the intent.
That's what we're looking at.
What do you think distractsmost people in the laboratory,
Dan?
I mean, cell phones is a hugedistraction.
(09:58):
What would be another one?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, I mean in a
laboratory every day there are
lots of distractions, but thingsthat distract you from safety
specifically, it could be.
There's so many potentialreasons it could be.
You know you've got somethinggoing on in your personal life
and you're just not eventhinking about it.
I can remember coming up to alady who was using her cell
(10:21):
phone in the lab and I said, hey, you know, we're not, we're not
, we're not supposed to be doingthat, it's not a safe habit.
And she burst into tears.
And the reason she burst intotears is security just called
her on her cell phone to tellher her car was just hit in the
parking garage.
So you know again, could shehave done something different?
Yeah, she should have gotten up, shaken off her PPE, gone out
(10:44):
in the hallway, answered herphone.
Then I'm not trying to excusethe behavior, but you know
there's personal things that candistract us all day long.
There could be work things,work pressures.
Hey, you know, I've been told Igot to get, I got to do at
least so many units of serviceper hour and I'm not meeting
that standard and I could be introuble.
So I'm just going to work fast,I'm not going to take the time
(11:06):
to do whatever I'm going to, notput my gloves on whatever it is
.
I mean, the phone itself is adistraction.
That's a different kind ofdistraction in the way that you
spoke about it, because I thinkthe phone can distract you from
doing good laboratory work.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well, 100% Bad for
reasons, whatever you're doing
100%.
I mean staying hydrated, eatingwell, uh.
Conflict resolution, if you'vegot grudges or you're not in
good standing with other staffmembers, uh, you know, if you
feel, uh a concern, you don'tfeel psychologically safe in
(11:46):
your environment.
I mean, there's so many, somany things that can distract us
interpersonally,interpersonally, even within the
environment as well, and it'sreally a chance during this time
to to just pause and and andreflect on things that could be
distracting you from being thebest and the safest laboratory
(12:11):
professional out there.
And again, that's really allLent is is a season and a time
for us to reflect on the thingsthat are distracting us from our
priority.
And, dan, this is important.
This is where it comes in whenyou ask a laboratory staff
member what their priority is.
I know they're dedicated totheir work.
(12:33):
I know it and that matters.
But, dan, the priority, in myopinion, is that they get home
to their loved ones safely everysingle night, that they've made
promises to the people theywork with that they, too, will
be able to return home safely atthe end of every night and,
last but not least, that they'vemade promises to the community
(12:55):
that they work in, that theywon't take their work in the lab
and cause other people outsideof the lab to get sick, and
those are huge promises that wecan't be distracted from.
So even if, during the seasonof Lent, we ask every laboratory
professional to think about thepromises that they've made and
to try to personally identifythe distractions that keep them
(13:19):
from keeping those promises,again, I think it's a step in
the right direction.
Not a traditional approach, butit certainly is a step in the
right direction.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
And I liked it, I
think, taking the time to first
take a breath from the busy daythat you're having and to be
thinking about these things.
But also, if you're inlaboratory leadership, take a
breath and think about, take alook at what's going on in your
laboratory, but also thinkthings through.
You know, when you think aboutall these.
You know I was in a meetingtoday with some laboratory
(13:53):
managers and one of the managerssaid to me well, you know, you
have to have your cell phone onyou because we get those alerts
if there's something.
What?
If there's something like anactive shooter in our laboratory
and we're in the safe room?
We won't know.
There's an all clear.
And I thought, wow, so you'rereally not thinking the whole
scenario through, because youknow if you're in a safe room,
your phone should be totally off, because you don't want to get
(14:16):
an alert on your phone that'sgoing to be audible and let the
shooter know where you are, forexample.
So I understand that there arethings that we're trying to
think for the benefit of ouremployees and ourselves and our
families, but you have to takeit all the way to the end to
understand what the potentialconsequences could be.
And so you do have to take amoment to think about it.
(14:39):
So I don't know I'm sure you'vedone this test, sean, before
where you there are words andthey're written in different
colors.
So here's the word green, butit's written in red.
Here's the word green, but it'swritten in red.
Here's the word blue, but it'swritten in yellow, and all of
that, and you start clappingyour hands and you have the
people in the room read that,read the words, and then you
(15:03):
next do it again and you clapyour hands a little bit faster
and you make them tell the colorof the word, not the word
itself.
And if you kind of startclapping like once per second,
it's kind of difficult for thepeople to do.
But if you slow that down tojust about two seconds suddenly
between claps, suddenly they'reable to do it because you're
(15:24):
doing a safety thing, you'restopping, you're thinking,
you're acting and you'rereviewing.
That's STAR terminology thatwe've heard in places and that
is so key in the laboratory tosafety, when you're the busiest,
when you're the most likely tobe distracted.
Take a moment, stop, think, actand review, and I think that's
(15:45):
a really cool tool that we canuse when we're trying to think
about ways to be safer duringthis time of the year 100% agree
Dan Absolutely, Absolutely.
So I am with you.
I think I'm with you oninitiating this challenge.
You, the listener, what can youdo during this time, even if
(16:07):
it's a two week period, a oneweek period, a month period,
whatever you think you can do,what can you do that can remove
distractions from safetybehaviors in the laboratory?
And it's like Sean said, it'sabout your safety, it's about
your co-worker's safety and theenvironment's safety.
The people who are outside thelaboratory.
(16:28):
You can do things.
Environment safety the peoplewho are outside the laboratory
you can do things wrong withsafety and we've seen it that
can affect the whole worldliterally.
So you have, there's a reasonfor safety.
You have to be safe, and Ithink it's a great challenge and
I think, if you try it and itdoesn't work, I think after a
couple weeks, take a pause,think about something else you
(16:49):
want to focus on and try itagain.
I don't think we only need tolimit this to the Lenten season
or Ramadan or any other specifictime of the year.
We should be doing this allyear long 100%, I agree.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I think again, it's
just a good time now if we can
pair it with this season to juststop and reflect and identify
not only things that distract usbut how we can develop new
disciplines within ourselves tostay safer in the laboratory
environments.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And if you can do
that, you're on your way to
improving your lab safetyculture.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We are the lab safety
gurus Dan Scungio and Sean
Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Thank you for letting
us do lab safety together.