May 22, 2024 • 16 mins
When it comes to laboratory safety, the smallest steps can have the biggest impact—discover how with our special guests, Sean Kaufman and Dan Scungio, as we unveil the Beaking Method for doffing gloves. Developed in response to the harrowing realities of lab-acquired infections and the stark lessons from GloGerm experiments, this episode is a deep dive into a technique that's reshaping safety protocols. Hear about its critical role during the Ebola crisis and the roadblocks we faced in implementing it across healthcare settings, despite its undeniable effectiveness in reducing contamination risks.
Our conversation takes an instructive turn, highlighting the paramount importance of precision in personal protective equipment removal. We'll guide you through the nuances of the "beaking method" and its varied reception in the field, dwelling on the challenges of altering ingrained behaviors for safer outcomes. Sean lends his expertise as we discuss the method's correct application in high-stakes environments and direct you to authentic demonstrations of the technique. Listen closely for an enlightening dialogue that not only educates but also empowers healthcare and laboratory professionals to safeguard themselves with confidence.
You can view the Beaking Method at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfGivTv3wbc.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast.
I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing
safety insights for thoseworking in laboratory settings,
doing safety together.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Sean Kaufman, I want to get a little bit personal
with you today and me, if that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Are you okay with that?
Oh, absolutely.
Now, this is you know again.
For the audience here.
This is unscripted.
This is just a goodconversation between us.
What are we going to talk abouttoday, dan?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's yeah, it's totally unscripted, but this has
been something that's been onmy mind and I want to try to get
your take on both aspects of it, and I sort of titled this in
my head, missing the Mark, withthe Beaking Method.
Now, for those of you not inthe know and Sean definitely
correct me if I misspeak aboutit the beaking method is a
(00:55):
method of doffing gloves thatSean Kaufman created, invented
back when you were working with.
Maybe it predates your workwith Ebola, I'm not sure, but it
is a proven better way to doffyour gloves in the laboratory or
(01:17):
any setting than thetraditional glove-in-glove
method that is kind of taughtpervasively.
Is that a good summary of whatit is?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
If it's okay with you, let'stalk a little bit about why or
how it came to fruition.
Does that sound good, dan?
Yeah, so many years ago, when Iwas at Emory University this is
like 20 years ago one of thethings that we would have people
do as part of that program isremove their gloves with GloGerm
(01:49):
on the outside of their gloves,and we would consistently see
GloGerm on people's hands,meaning they were removing
contaminated gloves andcontaminating their hands while
removing those gloves, and thatreally bothered us, and we
didn't really spend much timefocusing on this and I'll get to
(02:09):
what I mean by that but itreally bothered us, and so what
we decided to do was we spent aweek in a dark room with a lot
of go-jerm and a lot of gloves,and we developed a process that
and it wasn't just me, it wasLee Alderman and Henry Matthews,
these were my mentors.
So it was Lee Alderman andHenry Matthews, these were my
mentors, so it was Lee Alderman,henry Matthews, myself and we
spent a whole week devising away of removing gloves that if
(02:34):
we knew someone could do it, wewatched them and if they
followed those steps, we couldguarantee that they would have
no contamination on their hands.
Now, at that time, dan,remember, the stats are still
very clear 80% of laboratoryacquired infections, meaning
infections picked up in a lab,and actually 80% of healthcare
(02:56):
associated infections, come fromunknown events, meaning they're
not spills, they're not needlesticks.
We don't know how the peoplegot sick, and so the reality is
that we wanted to devise aprocess that would ensure that,
when you removed your gloves,you weren't going to get sick as
a result of removing yourgloves, and so that was phase
(03:19):
one.
Let's fast forward 10 years.
10 years later, ebola happened.
Let's fast forward 10 years.
10 years later, ebola happened.
And when Ebola happened, manypeople out there may remember,
but those two nurses in Texasgot sick with Ebola, and I had a
chance to work on the courtcase of Nina Pham.
She sued the hospital and I hada court case.
I had a chance to work with heras an expert witness and to see
(03:43):
how she doffed her gear and weput GloDrum all over her gloves
and I had her doff, and then Ilooked at her hands and
something struck me, dan, andthis was the big issue.
Now, keep in mind that Ebola isspread through blood-borne
fecal-oral routes oftransmission, which means that
if you have cuts and tears onyour skin cuts and tears on your
skin around the cuticle areasand you remove your gloves and
(04:04):
you contaminate that area withwhatever you have on your gloves
, you could actually be exposingyourself to the disease.
And both Nina and Amber gotsick from Duncan Duncan was the
gentleman that died.
Both of them got sick.
Those two nurses got sick.
There was no known spills, noknown needle sticks, nothing
meaning some way.
Somehow Ebola had to go intotheir bodies.
(04:26):
And 10 years after we developedthe beaking method, dan, I
started to focus on exactlywhere we were seeing the glow
germ.
And you know where we saw mostof the glow germ.
Well, you actually do knowbecause you've been trained in
this.
We saw it around the cuticleareas, where the tears are, and
that really alarmed me.
So that's kind of why we focuson that beaking method.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, it was frightening to see that with the
glow germ, just how bad theglove-in-glove method is and
where the potential exposureexists.
So this is clearly important.
It's clearly the best way to dothis.
And so here's part one of whatI wanted to talk about, personal
(05:13):
to me and, I guess, myorganization.
So, sean, you were so kind tocome to our organization, as we
have you do every year, to cometo our organization, as we have
you do every year, and teach mysafety coaches, where I work,
the beaking method.
(05:34):
And so we stood in a line.
We had everybody standing inline, we were showing people how
to do it.
We had the glow germ just toshow what happens if you do it
wrong, and all of that.
And you know, everybody thoughtthis is fantastic and this
makes total sense.
And so I went to the head ofour infection control in our
(05:55):
organization and I said you know, would it be okay if we taught
this as the standard for doffingin laboratory services?
And it took a while for them toanswer and they said, sure,
that's fine, but they didn'tgrasp onto it and they didn't
(06:16):
you know, they didn't make itpolicy or anything like that.
We are allowed to make it policyin lab services.
We haven't done that and I'llgo into why in just a minute.
But you know, I just I feellike part of this is so where it
missed the mark for us is wedid not.
we didn't complete the journeyhere, so it's been a couple
(06:37):
years since you've done that wegot permission but we've never
gone beyond that and there arevarious reasons for that.
One of the reasons is we in labservices in our organization
don't own a glove donning anddoffing procedure.
It's system-wide.
We don't own that.
And while we're allowed toprobably create our own.
(07:01):
We just haven't made itofficial education in that time,
and so I feel like we lost it.
I feel like we lost themomentum.
We got agreement that it wasgood, but the rest of the
hospital is not going to go withit and so far we haven't
mandated it or made it arequired part of our training
(07:23):
and lab services.
So we missed the mark there.
I don't know if you've had thatsort of situation happen in
other places.
I know I have seen you teach it.
I know you've gone to othercountries and taught it and have
people send you a video of howto do it to make sure they're
doing it correctly.
And also I know that you havespecific thoughts and opinions
(07:48):
on how training should be doneIn the world.
Unfortunately that we live inmany hospital associations or
organizations is that training.
A lot of it's not done that way.
We don't have an officialdonning and doffing training
that's live in front of people.
Now, that said, we're changingthat in our organization.
(08:10):
We have somebody in charge ofeducation now, which we didn't
used to have, and we're tryingto get in front of new lab
employees as they come on board.
But you know, in anorganization of 900
laboratorians it's a little hard.
It has been historically hardto do, but we're finally finding
(08:31):
a way and so I'm hoping tobring the beaking method back to
the table.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So I just want to.
I guess, I feel like.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I owe you a public apology, sean.
You did all that work.
You taught us that we movedahead a little bit, but we
didn't really we haven't reallyfinished the journey and it's
taken a long time.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You don't, dan.
Yeah, dan, there's no publicapology.
First and foremost, this is oneof those things where and I'm
going to invite all ourlisteners to really kind of
understand it as well Look, I dobelieve it is the
organization's job to protectits employees.
I do and quite honestly, dan,it makes me very sad because we
(09:10):
can clearly demonstrate that nottaking your gloves off properly
puts you at risk and peoplewill say, well, yeah, but you
wash your hands afterwards no,no, no, no, if you inoculate.
I want you to keep this in mind.
When we watch people removetheir gloves inappropriately,
they literally are pushing whatis on the gloves into those
cuticles on their fingernails asthey're removing those gloves,
meaning they're, like,self-inoculating.
(09:33):
And even though it is theresponsibility of organizations
to protect its staff, it's alsothe responsibility of each and
every individual to own safetyfor themselves.
And the fact that you had meshow up and the fact that you
allowed for me to demonstratethe beaking method, it's up to
the employees on whether or notthey want to use I call it like
(09:54):
self-defense.
There will be some people thatsay, nope, I don't need this,
and there will be some peoplethat say, yes, I do, and I'm
always a big believer that we'renot training for every day,
we're training for the time, forexample, when COVID comes, and
there may be a time when we doface an agent that doesn't kill
less than 1% of the people itinfects.
It could be like MERS, where itkills over 30% of the people it
(10:16):
infects and so I believe thatevery single day is a practice
day and you allow for anopportunity for staff to learn a
skill, should they ever need it.
They know it exists and theycan practice it and they can tap
into it.
So you know, dan, you don't oweme an apology.
I appreciate the opportunity toteach and get the word out.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Well, I just want you to know we haven't given up,
we're not done pushing it andwe're going to get it right here
.
We're going to get it righteventually.
It's just taking a lot longerthan I thought it would.
The second piece of this I'msure is more personal to you,
and that is that there areoutside organizations and I'm
not bashing anybody here,particularly the CDC who has
(11:04):
sort of latched onto the beakingmethod sort of, and I think
they missed the mark as well,because if you watch the video
that they have online and I'mnot even sure it's still up, I
haven't looked in a while theysort of haphazardly took the
beaking method which is yourmethod, yours and Alderman's and
(11:24):
Matthew's, and they didn't doit right.
Can you expound on that a littlebit?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, I appreciate.
Wow, you're making my heartsmile because I have to tell you
, the CDC complimented us by atleast acknowledging the
existence of the Beaky Methodand in fact, if you go to Google
Scholar, following the Ebolaoutbreak, there were a couple
papers that were published onthat glove removal process as
well, even using that name.
It is kind of neat to havesomeone, dan, like you,
(11:58):
recognize that CDC not only hasused it, but also they botched
it.
The beaking method that they dodemonstrate is not the beaking
method that we teach, and youhave to keep this in mind.
This is very important.
I'm a behaviorist and you knowthat, dan, and listeners they
may not know what that means,but let me explain what it means
(12:20):
.
It means that I focus primarilyon behavior and believe that
good behavior that's consistentwill produce the same consistent
outcome, which means that partof the beaking process is making
sure that every single step isdone properly is, and if it's
(12:41):
not done properly, it's notgoing to produce consistent
results.
And so when you look at whatCDC has put out there and
compare it to what we havetaught the way of doing it and
doing it well and doing iteffectively, when you look at
the way that CDC hasdemonstrated it.
It isn't the way that we wouldteach it.
In fact, I could clearly walkpeople through a video and
demonstrate that this is whereyou would see contamination,
(13:02):
because, believe it or not, overthe last 20 years we've been
watching people remove glovesand we kind of can predict very
easily where we're going to seethat.
But the point is is that atleast it is a compliment that
CDC does acknowledge the beakingmethod.
I just I do wish that theywould do it, in my opinion, the
(13:25):
right way.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Since we did develop it, I would say that we can
determine what way is right andwrong.
So, yeah, I just want to makesure people realize that and
again, it's not a dig againstthe CDC.
I know that these things happen.
I know sometimes how theyhappen and it's unfortunate.
Is there a place that peoplecan go to?
Is it on YouTube?
(13:47):
Where can people see thecorrect method if they were
interested in it, especiallyafter hearing today's podcast?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, if you go to just Google and you type in the
beaking method, there's going tobe several things that come up.
Texas Tech, actually, is thefirst thing that pops up, and
they do that.
But there's under the videos.
You'll see videos from me, seanKaufman.
You'll see I have severalvideos that you can watch and
there's a lot of.
There is a you know these have,you know they've been watched
(14:18):
by a lot of people.
So they pop up and so, again, Iwill caution you if my name is
not associated with it, I wouldprobably stay away from it
because there are people that douse the beaking method.
But if you type in beakingmethod with my name, sean
Kaufman, there are severalvideos that demonstrate how to
(14:41):
properly remove the glove usingthe beaking method.
So, again, yeah, dan, thank youfor bringing this up.
It's near and dear to my heart,as you know, because, again,
remember majority of the waysthat people get sick in labs and
even in hospitals, we justdon't know, and I'm convinced
it's from inappropriate doffingof contaminated personal
(15:01):
protective equipment, and so ifwe can teach people better
doffing strategies, then we can,in my opinion, protect more
people.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's huge.
It's a huge issue and it's ahuge risk in laboratories
doffing and, like you say, inhealth care in general.
But doffing contaminated PPEand we do this every day in labs
.
It's really critical that youdo it the right way.
And gloves you know so commonlyused, we need to make sure
(15:30):
we're doffing those correctly aswell.
So, again, if you're looking forthe beaking method online and
you want to see what this is, itis amazing.
People and I, sean, I just wantto thank you for bringing it to
the world, because it was anamazing that you took the time,
that you cared enough aboutpeople using gloves and
(15:51):
potentially getting infectedthat you came up with this in
this modern day and age.
That's to me that's incredible.
So, thank you.
Dna, that's to me that'sincredible.
But so thank you.
But also to everybody listening, make sure you that when you
look it up, you're looking it upand that it's associated
directly with Shawn Kaufman.
Again, you can google it.
Some of the things that came upwhen I googled it with what is
(16:12):
bird beak removal okay, that'snot what we're talking about,
but the the beaking method, andmake sure Sean Kaufman's name is
associated with it and you'relooking at the right way to do
it.
Be safe, everybody out there.
Thank you again, sean, fortalking about this today with me
and for again for bringing thisto the world.
(16:33):
It's an amazing thing thatyou've done and it's important.
So hopefully, everybody outthere, you'll learn to use it
and you'll learn to do it theright way.
Thanks everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Thank you, dan we are the lab safety gurus dan
scungio and sean kaufman thankyou for letting us do lab safety
together.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast.
I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing
safety insights for thoseworking in laboratory settings,
doing safety together.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Sean Kaufman, I want to get a little bit personal
with you today and me, if that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Are you okay with that?
Oh, absolutely.
Now, this is you know again.
For the audience here.
This is unscripted.
This is just a goodconversation between us.
What are we going to talk abouttoday, dan?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's yeah, it's totally unscripted, but this has
been something that's been onmy mind and I want to try to get
your take on both aspects of it, and I sort of titled this in
my head, missing the Mark, withthe Beaking Method.
Now, for those of you not inthe know and Sean definitely
correct me if I misspeak aboutit the beaking method is a
(00:55):
method of doffing gloves thatSean Kaufman created, invented
back when you were working with.
Maybe it predates your workwith Ebola, I'm not sure, but it
is a proven better way to doffyour gloves in the laboratory or
(01:17):
any setting than thetraditional glove-in-glove
method that is kind of taughtpervasively.
Is that a good summary of whatit is?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
If it's okay with you, let'stalk a little bit about why or
how it came to fruition.
Does that sound good, dan?
Yeah, so many years ago, when Iwas at Emory University this is
like 20 years ago one of thethings that we would have people
do as part of that program isremove their gloves with GloGerm
(01:49):
on the outside of their gloves,and we would consistently see
GloGerm on people's hands,meaning they were removing
contaminated gloves andcontaminating their hands while
removing those gloves, and thatreally bothered us, and we
didn't really spend much timefocusing on this and I'll get to
(02:09):
what I mean by that but itreally bothered us, and so what
we decided to do was we spent aweek in a dark room with a lot
of go-jerm and a lot of gloves,and we developed a process that
and it wasn't just me, it wasLee Alderman and Henry Matthews,
these were my mentors.
So it was Lee Alderman andHenry Matthews, these were my
mentors, so it was Lee Alderman,henry Matthews, myself and we
spent a whole week devising away of removing gloves that if
(02:34):
we knew someone could do it, wewatched them and if they
followed those steps, we couldguarantee that they would have
no contamination on their hands.
Now, at that time, dan,remember, the stats are still
very clear 80% of laboratoryacquired infections, meaning
infections picked up in a lab,and actually 80% of healthcare
(02:56):
associated infections, come fromunknown events, meaning they're
not spills, they're not needlesticks.
We don't know how the peoplegot sick, and so the reality is
that we wanted to devise aprocess that would ensure that,
when you removed your gloves,you weren't going to get sick as
a result of removing yourgloves, and so that was phase
(03:19):
one.
Let's fast forward 10 years.
10 years later, ebola happened.
Let's fast forward 10 years.
10 years later, ebola happened.
And when Ebola happened, manypeople out there may remember,
but those two nurses in Texasgot sick with Ebola, and I had a
chance to work on the courtcase of Nina Pham.
She sued the hospital and I hada court case.
I had a chance to work with heras an expert witness and to see
(03:43):
how she doffed her gear and weput GloDrum all over her gloves
and I had her doff, and then Ilooked at her hands and
something struck me, dan, andthis was the big issue.
Now, keep in mind that Ebola isspread through blood-borne
fecal-oral routes oftransmission, which means that
if you have cuts and tears onyour skin cuts and tears on your
skin around the cuticle areasand you remove your gloves and
(04:04):
you contaminate that area withwhatever you have on your gloves
, you could actually be exposingyourself to the disease.
And both Nina and Amber gotsick from Duncan Duncan was the
gentleman that died.
Both of them got sick.
Those two nurses got sick.
There was no known spills, noknown needle sticks, nothing
meaning some way.
Somehow Ebola had to go intotheir bodies.
(04:26):
And 10 years after we developedthe beaking method, dan, I
started to focus on exactlywhere we were seeing the glow
germ.
And you know where we saw mostof the glow germ.
Well, you actually do knowbecause you've been trained in
this.
We saw it around the cuticleareas, where the tears are, and
that really alarmed me.
So that's kind of why we focuson that beaking method.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, it was frightening to see that with the
glow germ, just how bad theglove-in-glove method is and
where the potential exposureexists.
So this is clearly important.
It's clearly the best way to dothis.
And so here's part one of whatI wanted to talk about, personal
(05:13):
to me and, I guess, myorganization.
So, sean, you were so kind tocome to our organization, as we
have you do every year, to cometo our organization, as we have
you do every year, and teach mysafety coaches, where I work,
the beaking method.
(05:34):
And so we stood in a line.
We had everybody standing inline, we were showing people how
to do it.
We had the glow germ just toshow what happens if you do it
wrong, and all of that.
And you know, everybody thoughtthis is fantastic and this
makes total sense.
And so I went to the head ofour infection control in our
(05:55):
organization and I said you know, would it be okay if we taught
this as the standard for doffingin laboratory services?
And it took a while for them toanswer and they said, sure,
that's fine, but they didn'tgrasp onto it and they didn't
(06:16):
you know, they didn't make itpolicy or anything like that.
We are allowed to make it policyin lab services.
We haven't done that and I'llgo into why in just a minute.
But you know, I just I feellike part of this is so where it
missed the mark for us is wedid not.
we didn't complete the journeyhere, so it's been a couple
(06:37):
years since you've done that wegot permission but we've never
gone beyond that and there arevarious reasons for that.
One of the reasons is we in labservices in our organization
don't own a glove donning anddoffing procedure.
It's system-wide.
We don't own that.
And while we're allowed toprobably create our own.
(07:01):
We just haven't made itofficial education in that time,
and so I feel like we lost it.
I feel like we lost themomentum.
We got agreement that it wasgood, but the rest of the
hospital is not going to go withit and so far we haven't
mandated it or made it arequired part of our training
(07:23):
and lab services.
So we missed the mark there.
I don't know if you've had thatsort of situation happen in
other places.
I know I have seen you teach it.
I know you've gone to othercountries and taught it and have
people send you a video of howto do it to make sure they're
doing it correctly.
And also I know that you havespecific thoughts and opinions
(07:48):
on how training should be doneIn the world.
Unfortunately that we live inmany hospital associations or
organizations is that training.
A lot of it's not done that way.
We don't have an officialdonning and doffing training
that's live in front of people.
Now, that said, we're changingthat in our organization.
(08:10):
We have somebody in charge ofeducation now, which we didn't
used to have, and we're tryingto get in front of new lab
employees as they come on board.
But you know, in anorganization of 900
laboratorians it's a little hard.
It has been historically hardto do, but we're finally finding
(08:31):
a way and so I'm hoping tobring the beaking method back to
the table.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So I just want to.
I guess, I feel like.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I owe you a public apology, sean.
You did all that work.
You taught us that we movedahead a little bit, but we
didn't really we haven't reallyfinished the journey and it's
taken a long time.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You don't, dan.
Yeah, dan, there's no publicapology.
First and foremost, this is oneof those things where and I'm
going to invite all ourlisteners to really kind of
understand it as well Look, I dobelieve it is the
organization's job to protectits employees.
I do and quite honestly, dan,it makes me very sad because we
(09:10):
can clearly demonstrate that nottaking your gloves off properly
puts you at risk and peoplewill say, well, yeah, but you
wash your hands afterwards no,no, no, no, if you inoculate.
I want you to keep this in mind.
When we watch people removetheir gloves inappropriately,
they literally are pushing whatis on the gloves into those
cuticles on their fingernails asthey're removing those gloves,
meaning they're, like,self-inoculating.
(09:33):
And even though it is theresponsibility of organizations
to protect its staff, it's alsothe responsibility of each and
every individual to own safetyfor themselves.
And the fact that you had meshow up and the fact that you
allowed for me to demonstratethe beaking method, it's up to
the employees on whether or notthey want to use I call it like
(09:54):
self-defense.
There will be some people thatsay, nope, I don't need this,
and there will be some peoplethat say, yes, I do, and I'm
always a big believer that we'renot training for every day,
we're training for the time, forexample, when COVID comes, and
there may be a time when we doface an agent that doesn't kill
less than 1% of the people itinfects.
It could be like MERS, where itkills over 30% of the people it
(10:16):
infects and so I believe thatevery single day is a practice
day and you allow for anopportunity for staff to learn a
skill, should they ever need it.
They know it exists and theycan practice it and they can tap
into it.
So you know, dan, you don't oweme an apology.
I appreciate the opportunity toteach and get the word out.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Well, I just want you to know we haven't given up,
we're not done pushing it andwe're going to get it right here
.
We're going to get it righteventually.
It's just taking a lot longerthan I thought it would.
The second piece of this I'msure is more personal to you,
and that is that there areoutside organizations and I'm
not bashing anybody here,particularly the CDC who has
(11:04):
sort of latched onto the beakingmethod sort of, and I think
they missed the mark as well,because if you watch the video
that they have online and I'mnot even sure it's still up, I
haven't looked in a while theysort of haphazardly took the
beaking method which is yourmethod, yours and Alderman's and
(11:24):
Matthew's, and they didn't doit right.
Can you expound on that a littlebit?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, I appreciate.
Wow, you're making my heartsmile because I have to tell you
, the CDC complimented us by atleast acknowledging the
existence of the Beaky Methodand in fact, if you go to Google
Scholar, following the Ebolaoutbreak, there were a couple
papers that were published onthat glove removal process as
well, even using that name.
It is kind of neat to havesomeone, dan, like you,
(11:58):
recognize that CDC not only hasused it, but also they botched
it.
The beaking method that they dodemonstrate is not the beaking
method that we teach, and youhave to keep this in mind.
This is very important.
I'm a behaviorist and you knowthat, dan, and listeners they
may not know what that means,but let me explain what it means
(12:20):
.
It means that I focus primarilyon behavior and believe that
good behavior that's consistentwill produce the same consistent
outcome, which means that partof the beaking process is making
sure that every single step isdone properly is, and if it's
(12:41):
not done properly, it's notgoing to produce consistent
results.
And so when you look at whatCDC has put out there and
compare it to what we havetaught the way of doing it and
doing it well and doing iteffectively, when you look at
the way that CDC hasdemonstrated it.
It isn't the way that we wouldteach it.
In fact, I could clearly walkpeople through a video and
demonstrate that this is whereyou would see contamination,
(13:02):
because, believe it or not, overthe last 20 years we've been
watching people remove glovesand we kind of can predict very
easily where we're going to seethat.
But the point is is that atleast it is a compliment that
CDC does acknowledge the beakingmethod.
I just I do wish that theywould do it, in my opinion, the
(13:25):
right way.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Since we did develop it, I would say that we can
determine what way is right andwrong.
So, yeah, I just want to makesure people realize that and
again, it's not a dig againstthe CDC.
I know that these things happen.
I know sometimes how theyhappen and it's unfortunate.
Is there a place that peoplecan go to?
Is it on YouTube?
(13:47):
Where can people see thecorrect method if they were
interested in it, especiallyafter hearing today's podcast?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, if you go to just Google and you type in the
beaking method, there's going tobe several things that come up.
Texas Tech, actually, is thefirst thing that pops up, and
they do that.
But there's under the videos.
You'll see videos from me, seanKaufman.
You'll see I have severalvideos that you can watch and
there's a lot of.
There is a you know these have,you know they've been watched
(14:18):
by a lot of people.
So they pop up and so, again, Iwill caution you if my name is
not associated with it, I wouldprobably stay away from it
because there are people that douse the beaking method.
But if you type in beakingmethod with my name, sean
Kaufman, there are severalvideos that demonstrate how to
(14:41):
properly remove the glove usingthe beaking method.
So, again, yeah, dan, thank youfor bringing this up.
It's near and dear to my heart,as you know, because, again,
remember majority of the waysthat people get sick in labs and
even in hospitals, we justdon't know, and I'm convinced
it's from inappropriate doffingof contaminated personal
(15:01):
protective equipment, and so ifwe can teach people better
doffing strategies, then we can,in my opinion, protect more
people.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's huge.
It's a huge issue and it's ahuge risk in laboratories
doffing and, like you say, inhealth care in general.
But doffing contaminated PPEand we do this every day in labs
.
It's really critical that youdo it the right way.
And gloves you know so commonlyused, we need to make sure
(15:30):
we're doffing those correctly aswell.
So, again, if you're looking forthe beaking method online and
you want to see what this is, itis amazing.
People and I, sean, I just wantto thank you for bringing it to
the world, because it was anamazing that you took the time,
that you cared enough aboutpeople using gloves and
(15:51):
potentially getting infectedthat you came up with this in
this modern day and age.
That's to me that's incredible.
So, thank you.
Dna, that's to me that'sincredible.
But so thank you.
But also to everybody listening, make sure you that when you
look it up, you're looking it upand that it's associated
directly with Shawn Kaufman.
Again, you can google it.
Some of the things that came upwhen I googled it with what is
(16:12):
bird beak removal okay, that'snot what we're talking about,
but the the beaking method, andmake sure Sean Kaufman's name is
associated with it and you'relooking at the right way to do
it.
Be safe, everybody out there.
Thank you again, sean, fortalking about this today with me
and for again for bringing thisto the world.
(16:33):
It's an amazing thing thatyou've done and it's important.
So hopefully, everybody outthere, you'll learn to use it
and you'll learn to do it theright way.
Thanks everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Thank you, dan we are the lab safety gurus dan
scungio and sean kaufman thankyou for letting us do lab safety
together.
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