November 5, 2024 • 15 mins
Unlock the secrets of aligning human psychology with laboratory safety protocols as Sean Kaufman and Dan Scungio unravel the intriguing parallels between Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the hierarchy of controls. Discover how addressing fundamental needs for air and water can be mirrored in engineering controls to create safer laboratory environments. As we journey through this discussion, we highlight the often overlooked connection between comfort, security, and adherence to safety measures, emphasizing the crucial role psychological safety plays in fostering an open culture of dialogue and innovation.
Prepare to have your perspective on safety culture transformed as we explore the symbolic power of two triangles—one upright, one inverted—and their combined potential to revolutionize organizational safety practices. This episode delves into how these geometric shapes can provide unexpected insights for strengthening safety measures. With gratitude to Dan Scungio for being a catalyst in this conversation, we reaffirm our dedication as lab safety gurus committed to empowering laboratories worldwide to cultivate robust and effective safety cultures. Join us in this compelling exploration and be part of the transformation in laboratory safety dynamics.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast.
I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing
safety insights for thoseworking in laboratory settings,
doing safety together.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Alright, welcome everybody.
Sean Kaufman, it is great to besitting here talking with you
again.
How are you?
I'm good, dan, I've missed you.
How are you doing?
I've been doing fantastic.
I've been keeping busy, but I'vegot a lot on my mind and I have
some questions for you that Iknow that they're your area of
expertise and I just you knowI've always been seeking answers
(00:38):
as a safety person about thesethings and you know I've
recently been talking about likeMaslow's hierarchy of needs,
and I am no expert in that areaat all.
I didn't study it.
I had to look up a lot aboutwhat it's about and I actually
learned a lot about that fromyou.
And why is that a concern to meas a lab safety professional?
(01:00):
Because I also have to look atthe upside-down triangle.
Maslow's is sort of a regulartriangle right, the upside-down
triangle of the hierarchy ofcontrols, which has been around
since like the 1950s.
It's not as old as Maslow byany stretch of the imagination,
but it also dictates what weneed to do for safety in a
(01:21):
laboratory setting.
Do these two triangles match up?
Can you have physiological needs, safety and security?
You need love and belonging,self-esteem and, where I want
everybody to beself-actualization?
Can you do all that whileworking in your job, in the
laboratory, having all of thoseneeds met, and still be
(01:44):
following things likeengineering controls, work
practice controls, using yourPPE and all that?
I don't see people doing thatand I don't know why and I don't
know how to make them.
Is it because their needsaren't being met that people
don't follow the rules?
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's a pretty big question.
So, as you know, I'm you knowagain, I'm a behaviorist.
So I, you know, I love Maslow'shierarchy of needs because, you
know, it's not what people havelearned traditionally.
You know, people have learnedthat Maslow's hierarchy of needs
is something we go through lifeand we achieve one after
another.
That's not what it was for.
What Maslow was trying tounderstand and discover was he
(02:34):
was trying to understand anddiscover why people behave and
what were the drivers of thebehavior, of the behavior.
And it's neat because theblending that you're talking
about is something that we'veconsidered, we thought about for
a long time.
(02:54):
Like, I'll give you an example.
Let's just use one control, dan, as an example.
Does this make sense?
Yeah, if you look at thephysiological needs, this is in
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
It's air, food, water andshelter.
And you look at the engineeringcontrols that would be, you know
, self-closing doors,directional airflow, hands-free
(03:16):
sinks, biosafety cabinets,autoclaves.
Basically, what you're lookingat is you're looking at the
fundamental aspects of survivalwithin Maslow's hierarchy of
needs, but you're also lookingat the it's not going to be
survival, but what is absolutelycritical to protect workers'
(03:39):
health and safety and safety.
If you look at, for example,how engineering controls do that
they try to eliminate thehazards at the source and they
try to create an environmentthat's extremely safe.
And if you can't do that, thenyou can't do your work at all.
And if you can't eat, you don'thave access to air, food, water
and shelter.
(03:59):
Quite honestly, you're notsurviving.
So it's one of those thingswhere, you know, I look at these
controls and it's like a veryimportant control that we have
to do is create an environmentin which the work we do is safe
and secure, so we can go all theway down.
But that's kind of just thestart of how, in the past, I've
(04:22):
paired these, or I've blendedthese, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, I mean, that makes sense to me a lot and I
like how you use the originaluse of Maslow because I agree, I
don't think that it's aclimbing thing.
I think there's somethingdifferent in each of those
levels of needs, but I don'tlike so.
So when you were just talking aminute ago, I was thinking
(04:48):
where does comfort fit in?
Does comfort fit in under yourphysiological needs or it's not
really safety and security?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No comfort actually is safety and security Comfort.
That's exactly where that is,because if you don't feel safe,
go ahead.
Dan, I didn't mean to cut youoff, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So when I think of comfort and reason, you know
people maybe they're not goingto wear their lab coat because
they're hot Okay, and I knowthat that's a management issue
and you need to get yourenvironment straight so that
people aren't too hot or toocold in their environment and
all that.
But I hear that a lot.
Right, people don't wear theirlab coats because they're not
comfortable.
And actually, when you look at,when you delve into how PPE
(05:33):
should be made and why it's made, there are ANSI standards and
OSHA standards for lab coats andhow they're constructed.
For VSL2, at least labs youdon't need to have a fluid
impermeable lab coat.
You need to have a fluidresistant lab coat because it's
got to have some breathabilityBecause if you wore something
impermeable all day long youwould melt underneath of it,
(05:53):
underneath it.
So comfort definitely is apiece of it and I was just yeah,
I was like where does it fit?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
in.
You were right.
I think physiological comfortwould definitely fit into
physiological needs, but I was.
When you were saying comfort, Iwas thinking psychological
safety, so to speak, the abilityto not only communicate that
I'm hot but also the ability tomaybe work on alternatives for
(06:21):
solving when you're hot.
That's going to requirepsychological safety.
The actual act of being hot,like where you're sweating and
you're uncomfortable and thatdistracts you from being safe in
your work.
You're absolutely right, thatwould be a physiological need.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I really love diving a little bit deeper into this
because I do not have apsychiatry background or a
behavioral background humanbehavior but I obviously need to
study and need to know humanbehavior in order to do my job,
and so I think my favorite thingthat you taught me in the past
couple of years you know we'vehad lots of conversations about
(06:57):
cell phone use, personalelectronic devices, you know
smartwatches, earbuds, whateverand there's a need for access to
that technology, a need tosatisfy an urge or to satisfy a
craving, kind of like smoking.
Right, you know you're addictedto nicotine, then you must have
(07:18):
it.
And I think you said thatthere's science out there that
shows that addiction to theseelectronic devices or social
media or whatever aspects ofthem, is as strong, if not
stronger than, addiction tosomething like cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, yeah, 100%.
And this is why we go to thatsecond realm, if's, if we talk
about the second basic need,because keep in mind that cell
phones they address, they, they,they really fulfill all basic
needs.
But but let's talk about thatsecond need of safety and
security.
(07:52):
Because when we talk aboutsafety and security, once we've
established an environment whereit's safe and secure to do the
work, then we begin doing thatwork.
That, that that's Maslow's area, right?
So we've established anenvironment through engineering
controls that provide safety andsecurity.
But here's the deal this iswhere the hierarchy of controls
(08:12):
for safety come in, or forcontainment, this is where
administrative controls come in.
See, once you've established asafe environment to do your work
, which is your work is behaviornow you've got to actually have
policies and procedures to doit safely, and that's where
administrative controls come in.
Your policies and proceduresallow you to work safely and
(08:34):
provide guidelines for saferbehaviors, in that laboratory
aspects and those saferbehaviors is what gives you the
need, or what gives you thestability in Maslow's hierarchy
for the need to safety andsecurity.
Without those policies andprocedures you don't have safety
and security in the lab, andwithout safety and security in
the lab, you're not going tohave good behavior and not going
(08:55):
to have good engagementlaboratory staff.
So, for example, like you said,no cell phones in the lab.
Not only is the establishmentof that policy and procedure
important, but also complianceand accountability for when
those policies aren't followed.
That's absolutely important aswell.
Otherwise, you do not maintaina level of safety and security
tied to MIASO's hierarchy ofneeds, but you also don't obtain
(09:18):
the administrative controls youneed to keep that environment
safe.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, obtain the administrative controls you need
to keep that environment safe.
Yeah, you know, when you'regoing down the upside down
triangle of the hierarchy ofcontrols, administrative
controls is where we start tolose control in safety and in
leadership, because the humanfactor suddenly enters the fray.
When you know if it's aproperly set up engineering
control, it's doing its job,with or without human
(09:42):
interaction.
Administrative controls is whenpeople start.
You know, if you're notoverseeing the policies and
procedures and the rules andregulations, people will start
to do things outside of them.
So you know, the thing that Inow tell audiences when they ask
the question about it is iswhat you suggested Give them.
(10:03):
Give people an e-break, like weused to give people smoke
breaks.
It was interesting yesterday, um, jason Nagy and I were
presenting in Philadelphia andwe asked the audience.
We told them to look at thehierarchy of controls and talk
about cell phones specifically.
So if your procedure says youare not allowed to have a cell
(10:24):
phone in your laboratory, isthat elimination at the very top
of the hierarchy of controls,or is that administrative
controls?
And Jason and I have sort ofargued about this a little bit,
but we took a poll of theaudience.
Most of them thought it waselimination.
I still contend a procedure, apolicy that says you can't have
(10:46):
it really is an administrativecontrol, because it doesn't
always work.
You can have a written policysaying no cell phones allowed,
but people don't always followit.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Well, I mean and Dan, in all fairness, like, let's
talk about PPE.
It applies to multiple areas.
Like personal protectiveequipment can be a safety and
security issue, it can be aself-esteem issue, it can be a
belongingness issue.
Let me tell you my perspectiveon it.
I think that when workers aregiven equipment and they know
(11:24):
that the organization caresabout their safety and sometimes
that can be demonstratedthrough personal protective
equipment I think it's directlytied to Maslow's hierarchy of
safety or Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds, specifically love and
belongings.
Now there's importance todeveloping culture, there's
importance to developing teamcamaraderie.
(11:44):
There's a lot of importancethere.
But personal protectiveequipment also reflects a very
social aspect of safety becauseit's observable and when workers
feel like they're being caredfor through proper safety
measures and proper safetyequipment, it can foster a sense
of belongingness to a communitywithin the workplace, meaning
(12:05):
it shows that the organizationvalues their staff and their
employees.
Certainly, again, if we look atall of the controls that are in
place to protect, you know, thesafety and security of staff
and what's being done in thoselabs, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And I also look at the hierarchy of needs.
Like we get to the point ofself-esteem or love and
belonging.
You know, sense of connection.
So if everybody's doing it, ifeverybody's using their PPE,
you're going to do it too.
It's betterment for safety, butalso it's a good culture to be
(12:46):
in.
If your laboratory is like that, I wish more labs were like
that, so that you know, I alwayslook at the top of Maslow's
hierarchy and go oh,self-actualization.
I'm unique, I'm important and Ineed to protect myself.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
That is.
You know.
It's funny that we say that,because our self-esteem in
Maslow's hierarchy of needs canbe paired with culture in a way
that does your organization askfor the workers' opinions?
Do they recognize goodbehaviors and safer behaviors?
Do they involve employees indecision making and do they
provide opportunities foremployees to grow professionally
(13:22):
?
Does the organization respectthem and give them a sense of
accomplishment?
And if that's something theorganization does which, by the
way, is safety culture then whatyou're doing is you're meeting
the esteem needs of yourlaboratory staff.
Now I know our time is runningout.
I got one more thing to sayabout self-actualization.
(13:44):
This is the biggest one, thisis the really cool part.
Self-actualization is not afinal destination, it's a
process, and we are alwaystalking about continuous
improvement.
And when we talk aboutself-actualization, we're
actually talking aboutcontinuous improvement in the
control aspects, meaning when wetalk about the highest levels
(14:07):
of both hierarchies.
It's important for us tounderstand that the person is
always developing, but so is theorganization.
Meaning we haven't learned,we're learning.
We haven't trained, we'retraining.
And we haven't, you know,behaved, we're behaving.
And so what we always mustrecognize is that not only is an
(14:31):
organization continuouslyimproving, but so are the people
working in the lab as well.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, and if you're in lab safety, you're working
always to improve the safetyculture too.
Yeah, so I do.
I love that.
I think that's part of ourjourney that we need to be
taking, and I think that the twotriangles, one right side up
and the other one upside down,fit pretty well together.
They don't all mean the samething, but I think that the two
triangles, one right side up andthe other one upside down, fit
pretty well together.
They don't all mean the samething, but I think they can all
(15:00):
be used together to help usfigure out what we need to do to
keep our safety culturesgrowing and getting stronger.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Very, very good.
Well, Dan, thank you forfacilitating this session.
I missed you, man.
I look forward to talking toyou next month.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yep, we will do it soon.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Take care everybody.
All right, take care, dan.
We are the lab safety gurus,dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast.
I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing
safety insights for thoseworking in laboratory settings,
doing safety together.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Alright, welcome everybody.
Sean Kaufman, it is great to besitting here talking with you
again.
How are you?
I'm good, dan, I've missed you.
How are you doing?
I've been doing fantastic.
I've been keeping busy, but I'vegot a lot on my mind and I have
some questions for you that Iknow that they're your area of
expertise and I just you knowI've always been seeking answers
(00:38):
as a safety person about thesethings and you know I've
recently been talking about likeMaslow's hierarchy of needs,
and I am no expert in that areaat all.
I didn't study it.
I had to look up a lot aboutwhat it's about and I actually
learned a lot about that fromyou.
And why is that a concern to meas a lab safety professional?
(01:00):
Because I also have to look atthe upside-down triangle.
Maslow's is sort of a regulartriangle right, the upside-down
triangle of the hierarchy ofcontrols, which has been around
since like the 1950s.
It's not as old as Maslow byany stretch of the imagination,
but it also dictates what weneed to do for safety in a
(01:21):
laboratory setting.
Do these two triangles match up?
Can you have physiological needs, safety and security?
You need love and belonging,self-esteem and, where I want
everybody to beself-actualization?
Can you do all that whileworking in your job, in the
laboratory, having all of thoseneeds met, and still be
(01:44):
following things likeengineering controls, work
practice controls, using yourPPE and all that?
I don't see people doing thatand I don't know why and I don't
know how to make them.
Is it because their needsaren't being met that people
don't follow the rules?
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's a pretty big question.
So, as you know, I'm you knowagain, I'm a behaviorist.
So I, you know, I love Maslow'shierarchy of needs because, you
know, it's not what people havelearned traditionally.
You know, people have learnedthat Maslow's hierarchy of needs
is something we go through lifeand we achieve one after
another.
That's not what it was for.
What Maslow was trying tounderstand and discover was he
(02:34):
was trying to understand anddiscover why people behave and
what were the drivers of thebehavior, of the behavior.
And it's neat because theblending that you're talking
about is something that we'veconsidered, we thought about for
a long time.
(02:54):
Like, I'll give you an example.
Let's just use one control, dan, as an example.
Does this make sense?
Yeah, if you look at thephysiological needs, this is in
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
It's air, food, water andshelter.
And you look at the engineeringcontrols that would be, you know
, self-closing doors,directional airflow, hands-free
(03:16):
sinks, biosafety cabinets,autoclaves.
Basically, what you're lookingat is you're looking at the
fundamental aspects of survivalwithin Maslow's hierarchy of
needs, but you're also lookingat the it's not going to be
survival, but what is absolutelycritical to protect workers'
(03:39):
health and safety and safety.
If you look at, for example,how engineering controls do that
they try to eliminate thehazards at the source and they
try to create an environmentthat's extremely safe.
And if you can't do that, thenyou can't do your work at all.
And if you can't eat, you don'thave access to air, food, water
and shelter.
(03:59):
Quite honestly, you're notsurviving.
So it's one of those thingswhere, you know, I look at these
controls and it's like a veryimportant control that we have
to do is create an environmentin which the work we do is safe
and secure, so we can go all theway down.
But that's kind of just thestart of how, in the past, I've
(04:22):
paired these, or I've blendedthese, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, I mean, that makes sense to me a lot and I
like how you use the originaluse of Maslow because I agree, I
don't think that it's aclimbing thing.
I think there's somethingdifferent in each of those
levels of needs, but I don'tlike so.
So when you were just talking aminute ago, I was thinking
(04:48):
where does comfort fit in?
Does comfort fit in under yourphysiological needs or it's not
really safety and security?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No comfort actually is safety and security Comfort.
That's exactly where that is,because if you don't feel safe,
go ahead.
Dan, I didn't mean to cut youoff, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So when I think of comfort and reason, you know
people maybe they're not goingto wear their lab coat because
they're hot Okay, and I knowthat that's a management issue
and you need to get yourenvironment straight so that
people aren't too hot or toocold in their environment and
all that.
But I hear that a lot.
Right, people don't wear theirlab coats because they're not
comfortable.
And actually, when you look at,when you delve into how PPE
(05:33):
should be made and why it's made, there are ANSI standards and
OSHA standards for lab coats andhow they're constructed.
For VSL2, at least labs youdon't need to have a fluid
impermeable lab coat.
You need to have a fluidresistant lab coat because it's
got to have some breathabilityBecause if you wore something
impermeable all day long youwould melt underneath of it,
(05:53):
underneath it.
So comfort definitely is apiece of it and I was just yeah,
I was like where does it fit?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
in.
You were right.
I think physiological comfortwould definitely fit into
physiological needs, but I was.
When you were saying comfort, Iwas thinking psychological
safety, so to speak, the abilityto not only communicate that
I'm hot but also the ability tomaybe work on alternatives for
(06:21):
solving when you're hot.
That's going to requirepsychological safety.
The actual act of being hot,like where you're sweating and
you're uncomfortable and thatdistracts you from being safe in
your work.
You're absolutely right, thatwould be a physiological need.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I really love diving a little bit deeper into this
because I do not have apsychiatry background or a
behavioral background humanbehavior but I obviously need to
study and need to know humanbehavior in order to do my job,
and so I think my favorite thingthat you taught me in the past
couple of years you know we'vehad lots of conversations about
(06:57):
cell phone use, personalelectronic devices, you know
smartwatches, earbuds, whateverand there's a need for access to
that technology, a need tosatisfy an urge or to satisfy a
craving, kind of like smoking.
Right, you know you're addictedto nicotine, then you must have
(07:18):
it.
And I think you said thatthere's science out there that
shows that addiction to theseelectronic devices or social
media or whatever aspects ofthem, is as strong, if not
stronger than, addiction tosomething like cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, yeah, 100%.
And this is why we go to thatsecond realm, if's, if we talk
about the second basic need,because keep in mind that cell
phones they address, they, they,they really fulfill all basic
needs.
But but let's talk about thatsecond need of safety and
security.
(07:52):
Because when we talk aboutsafety and security, once we've
established an environment whereit's safe and secure to do the
work, then we begin doing thatwork.
That, that that's Maslow's area, right?
So we've established anenvironment through engineering
controls that provide safety andsecurity.
But here's the deal this iswhere the hierarchy of controls
(08:12):
for safety come in, or forcontainment, this is where
administrative controls come in.
See, once you've established asafe environment to do your work
, which is your work is behaviornow you've got to actually have
policies and procedures to doit safely, and that's where
administrative controls come in.
Your policies and proceduresallow you to work safely and
(08:34):
provide guidelines for saferbehaviors, in that laboratory
aspects and those saferbehaviors is what gives you the
need, or what gives you thestability in Maslow's hierarchy
for the need to safety andsecurity.
Without those policies andprocedures you don't have safety
and security in the lab, andwithout safety and security in
the lab, you're not going tohave good behavior and not going
(08:55):
to have good engagementlaboratory staff.
So, for example, like you said,no cell phones in the lab.
Not only is the establishmentof that policy and procedure
important, but also complianceand accountability for when
those policies aren't followed.
That's absolutely important aswell.
Otherwise, you do not maintaina level of safety and security
tied to MIASO's hierarchy ofneeds, but you also don't obtain
(09:18):
the administrative controls youneed to keep that environment
safe.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, obtain the administrative controls you need
to keep that environment safe.
Yeah, you know, when you'regoing down the upside down
triangle of the hierarchy ofcontrols, administrative
controls is where we start tolose control in safety and in
leadership, because the humanfactor suddenly enters the fray.
When you know if it's aproperly set up engineering
control, it's doing its job,with or without human
(09:42):
interaction.
Administrative controls is whenpeople start.
You know, if you're notoverseeing the policies and
procedures and the rules andregulations, people will start
to do things outside of them.
So you know, the thing that Inow tell audiences when they ask
the question about it is iswhat you suggested Give them.
(10:03):
Give people an e-break, like weused to give people smoke
breaks.
It was interesting yesterday, um, jason Nagy and I were
presenting in Philadelphia andwe asked the audience.
We told them to look at thehierarchy of controls and talk
about cell phones specifically.
So if your procedure says youare not allowed to have a cell
(10:24):
phone in your laboratory, isthat elimination at the very top
of the hierarchy of controls,or is that administrative
controls?
And Jason and I have sort ofargued about this a little bit,
but we took a poll of theaudience.
Most of them thought it waselimination.
I still contend a procedure, apolicy that says you can't have
(10:46):
it really is an administrativecontrol, because it doesn't
always work.
You can have a written policysaying no cell phones allowed,
but people don't always followit.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Well, I mean and Dan, in all fairness, like, let's
talk about PPE.
It applies to multiple areas.
Like personal protectiveequipment can be a safety and
security issue, it can be aself-esteem issue, it can be a
belongingness issue.
Let me tell you my perspectiveon it.
I think that when workers aregiven equipment and they know
(11:24):
that the organization caresabout their safety and sometimes
that can be demonstratedthrough personal protective
equipment I think it's directlytied to Maslow's hierarchy of
safety or Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds, specifically love and
belongings.
Now there's importance todeveloping culture, there's
importance to developing teamcamaraderie.
(11:44):
There's a lot of importancethere.
But personal protectiveequipment also reflects a very
social aspect of safety becauseit's observable and when workers
feel like they're being caredfor through proper safety
measures and proper safetyequipment, it can foster a sense
of belongingness to a communitywithin the workplace, meaning
(12:05):
it shows that the organizationvalues their staff and their
employees.
Certainly, again, if we look atall of the controls that are in
place to protect, you know, thesafety and security of staff
and what's being done in thoselabs, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And I also look at the hierarchy of needs.
Like we get to the point ofself-esteem or love and
belonging.
You know, sense of connection.
So if everybody's doing it, ifeverybody's using their PPE,
you're going to do it too.
It's betterment for safety, butalso it's a good culture to be
(12:46):
in.
If your laboratory is like that, I wish more labs were like
that, so that you know, I alwayslook at the top of Maslow's
hierarchy and go oh,self-actualization.
I'm unique, I'm important and Ineed to protect myself.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
That is.
You know.
It's funny that we say that,because our self-esteem in
Maslow's hierarchy of needs canbe paired with culture in a way
that does your organization askfor the workers' opinions?
Do they recognize goodbehaviors and safer behaviors?
Do they involve employees indecision making and do they
provide opportunities foremployees to grow professionally
(13:22):
?
Does the organization respectthem and give them a sense of
accomplishment?
And if that's something theorganization does which, by the
way, is safety culture then whatyou're doing is you're meeting
the esteem needs of yourlaboratory staff.
Now I know our time is runningout.
I got one more thing to sayabout self-actualization.
(13:44):
This is the biggest one, thisis the really cool part.
Self-actualization is not afinal destination, it's a
process, and we are alwaystalking about continuous
improvement.
And when we talk aboutself-actualization, we're
actually talking aboutcontinuous improvement in the
control aspects, meaning when wetalk about the highest levels
(14:07):
of both hierarchies.
It's important for us tounderstand that the person is
always developing, but so is theorganization.
Meaning we haven't learned,we're learning.
We haven't trained, we'retraining.
And we haven't, you know,behaved, we're behaving.
And so what we always mustrecognize is that not only is an
(14:31):
organization continuouslyimproving, but so are the people
working in the lab as well.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, and if you're in lab safety, you're working
always to improve the safetyculture too.
Yeah, so I do.
I love that.
I think that's part of ourjourney that we need to be
taking, and I think that the twotriangles, one right side up
and the other one upside down,fit pretty well together.
They don't all mean the samething, but I think that the two
triangles, one right side up andthe other one upside down, fit
pretty well together.
They don't all mean the samething, but I think they can all
(15:00):
be used together to help usfigure out what we need to do to
keep our safety culturesgrowing and getting stronger.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Very, very good.
Well, Dan, thank you forfacilitating this session.
I missed you, man.
I look forward to talking toyou next month.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yep, we will do it soon.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Take care everybody.
All right, take care, dan.
We are the lab safety gurus,dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.
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