February 14, 2024 • 60 mins
In episode 2 of The Last Sale, we explore the importance of the human touch in sales with author, speaker, and accomplished salesperson, Andy Paul. Andy, with his engaging storytelling, highlights the art of listening and empathy that's becoming increasingly more important in how deals are done, even multimillion-dollar ones. From high-stakes negotiations to the power of creating genuine connections, Andy shares numerous stories from his career as this episode gets down to the basics of sales, building and maintaining trust.
Thanks again to your our sponsor, GoPayhawk. Stop overpaying and start thriving with GoPayhawk's payment process solutions. Visit GoPayhawk.com today and use code TLS24 to learn more about receiving a $250 credit on your payment processing solutions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And welcome to episode two of the last cell,
where we investigate cellsthrough stories of great
salespeople.
We have one for you today, andyPaul, I'm Kevin Hill, one of
your hosts, along with Mr RichieDagle.
Richie, take it away.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You know, andy is one of my favorite authors of sales
books.
You know I like books, kevin,and I like right with most sales
books is that a third of thestuff, a third of the book, is
really good and two thirds ofit's kind of filler, it's like
you know.
But Andy Paul's book isdifferent.
It's straight, it's to thepoint.
Every page is really good, youknow, and his big thing is, hey,
(00:40):
be a good human.
Maybe that's the most importantthing and sales is to listen to
people and help people and be agood person.
And let's focus on how to dothat.
You know, and hear some ways todo that in sales Super cool
conversation and he's been partof some massive deals.
Like some of the deal sizes hewas discussing eight figure
(01:03):
deals like just wild stories.
I mean, he had some really,really cool stories in this
episode about navigating, youknow, multi-million dollar deals
and flying across continentsand like all the things that
happened.
One tactic which I'm not goingto give away, which was
fantastic, about how to betteryour odds when you're in a head
(01:24):
to head situation with somebodyelse, which I thought was
absolutely brilliant hint thatinvolves, you know, accessing
your partners and using themstrategically.
But really cool conversation.
What were your big takeaways,Kevin?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Just simplified.
I felt after we had aconversation with Andy that I
could go out and sell globalsatellite communications
tomorrow.
That's how simple he kind ofmade it and straightforward.
So I really appreciate that.
But without further ado, let'sjust jump right into the
conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So I think that's a good place to start.
Andy, I'm curious for someonewho ran a podcast and is
starting a new podcast whatadvice do you have for us who
you know, for Kevin and myself,who have also previously ran a
podcast, and we're here startinga new podcast?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, you know, for me I don't know if this is
advice for the audience or not,but for you, in terms of
starting a podcast, is advice Igive it a podcast is just
remember that people tune in tolisten to you and that's where
the relationship is built.
So, you know, just focus on,you know, inserting yourself
(02:42):
into the conversation, becausepeople ultimately are tuning in
to hear your point of view, moreso than the guests, because
that's where the relationshipexists.
But you know, in terms of otheradvice is just, yeah, find
interesting people to talk with.
I mean, you've done it forbefore.
You did it for three and a half, four years.
I've done it, gosh, for eightyears now and I find that I
(03:06):
always like say it's sort of oneof more selfish things I've
done in my business career,because I've probably talked to
a thousand guests over thatperiod of time.
And where else do you get theopportunity to talk to a
thousand smart, interestingpeople?
And, yeah, I've taken away asmuch from talking to them as
probably the audience has.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think there's an important point of doing
podcasts and something thatpeople overlook who haven't done
a podcast is how much you learn.
How much you learn from theguests that you talk to is
amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, and yeah, I'm a firm believer that you know
you're gonna find reallyinteresting, intriguing thoughts
and opinions from all spectrums.
You know people all across thespectrum, and so one of the
things I was intentional aboutwith the new podcast I launched
in July of this past yearwhereas my previous show had
(04:02):
done about 1200 episodes of aninterview podcast, which was, as
I said, fun and educational andinformative is I just wanted
more voices in the conversation.
So with this new formatpodcasts my show, the WinRate
podcast every episode is me andthree guests.
So I wanted to have as manydiverse voices, new voices, not
(04:22):
just the same sales authors and,you know, experts and so on,
but, yeah, people who areselling and people who are, yeah
, from all aspects of the salesand revenue process, not just as
authors and bloggers and so on.
And it's been great because wehave these conversations that
(04:43):
bring points of view forwardthat that people maybe don't
normally hear, and it's soimportant because I think sales
is sort of stuck.
You know, it's our recurringtheme of mine, and what I write
and what I talk about is thistechnology notwithstanding,
we're basically selling andmanaging sellers pretty much the
(05:05):
same way we have for 50 year,50 plus years, and it's we
really need to rethink, you know, I think, substantial elements
of how we go about the businessif we want to stay relevant in
the process to buyers, andbecause you know they
increasingly have options thatdon't involve talking to
salespeople not that they'reoptimal, but they can get the
(05:28):
job done.
And so I think, I said, if wewant to make sure that, as human
sellers, we stay relevant,things have to change.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
For sure, and Andy help us.
I mean there may be peoplelistening that aren't familiar
with you.
There is the.
I'd say there are few and farbetween, because you've done a
great job of getting your nameout there.
Your book is fantastic.
It's one of my favorite salesbooks, I have to say.
But for those people that maynot know you like just a quick
introduction and how you wentfrom where you were in sales to
(06:03):
where you are as an author andpodcast host and voice in the
space.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, I mean I've been doing this for a long time,
which I sort of lean into thesedays, because so, yeah, this is
my 46th year in sales.
So I was in the tech biz.
Yeah, I started off sellinglarge computer systems, you know
, on-premise computer systems,to companies that for many of
(06:32):
them were, were, is thereinitial for-end automation and
computerization, so just sort ofput a stake in the ground in
terms of timing.
So one of the things I learnedreally early on was was how do
you help the buyer and reallyfocus on that, how do you help
them make this decision?
Because it was a verymonumental decision for
(06:54):
companies at that point in timewas, you know, we've been
keeping basically large, youknow counting systems and cost,
job cost accounting systems andso on, selling a lot to the
construction industry, and thisis a big leap right, I mean one
that we sort of forget abouttoday.
So for me, it really got me inthis mindset of, oh, my job
really isn't about pushing myproducts, really have to help
(07:15):
these people make this decision,to make this change it's really
, I said, decisive change intheir business.
So did that?
I worked at Apple in the veryearly days of Apple, worked for
a variety of startups up untilthe year about year 2000.
It's been about 15 yearsselling large satellite
communication systems to largeenterprises around the world.
(07:38):
So I wanted to start my own gigand my expertise really was how
do you help small, no-namecompanies which all these
startups were go and competeagainst the big guys for big
orders and win?
And that was I had been hiredand worked for a variety of
succession of startups doingthat.
So I started my own company,working with, again, small,
(08:03):
mid-sized companies specificallyon that task.
I'd help them learn how to win,compete and win.
And then sort of got the bug towrite a book.
So in year 2000, 2011, wrote myfirst book, got the bug for
podcasting in 2015,.
Started my podcast and, yeah,podcast got acquired in year
(08:25):
2000, or 2020, excuse me and Iproduced that under contract to
come and acquire the podcast.
But then sort of went on my ownpath earlier this year and
started a new one.
And, yeah, didn't anticipatewhen I wrote my first book that
there would be an audience forit as more sort of scratching an
(08:46):
itch and turned out peopleliked it and so one book led to
two, led to three and now I'mactually hoping 24, shooting to
get my next book published.
Congratulations, oh, thanks.
Yeah, it's been fun, right?
I think that one of theelements that people miss and I
(09:07):
think it's somewhat nature ofthe way the business has evolved
is that you don't often hearsalespeople talk about having
fun.
And I had this incredibly funcareer and have had this
incredibly fun career and anumber of different chapters.
You know I start off in directsales.
I said selling to theconstruction industry these
computer systems, and then gotinvolved at Apple in the early
(09:30):
days of Apple and 81 joinedApple.
You know it's a couple hundredmillion dollar company there,
not a multi-billion billiondollar company.
So, yeah, got involved inchannel sales, which I hadn't
been involved in before and thengot back into direct selling,
(09:50):
selling satellite communicationsystems what I know about
satellite communication systems.
I did that for 15 years forthree different companies and,
yeah, it gave me the opportunityto travel the world.
I've sold on every continentbut Antarctica dealt with huge
companies that everybody knowsand it was just fun, right.
(10:15):
I mean we were the underdog bydefinition.
Every deal we went into we werethe underdog.
And learning to be able tooperate in that environment, to
be able to win, you know, seven,eight, nine-figured yields,
competing at these megacompanies, was just a gas.
(10:35):
But again, you don't hear peopletalk about the fun of it,
because it was so creative, itdemanded so much creativity and
doing things different.
And I said, you're always sortof the underdog.
How do you help the buyer andhow do you differentiate
yourself?
So that part sort of seems tobe missing these days and
(10:59):
because, yeah, it tends to bemore about hey, we've got our
process, I want you to complywith our process.
This is our playbook.
You know, here are the steps,that's it.
Ah, da, da, da, da, da.
And I think the thing thatkeeps people in sales especially
the top performers, you know,certainly true in my case is
autonomy.
And that's part of what makesselling funds.
(11:21):
You have the autonomy to saylook, this is, yeah, my first
sales job.
First sales job.
Yeah, my boss was very clearyou are the president of this
territory.
Right, you're the CEO.
Make your number.
You know, obviously we operatewithin frameworks and guidelines
and so on, but other than that,go make it happen.
And you know, having thatfreedom early in your career,
(11:44):
that constantly be experimentingand feel like you're in charge
of your success is.
I found that that really becameimportant to me as I looked for
different jobs as I moved up inmy career.
That autonomy was reallyimportant and I think it helped
me perform at higher levelsbecause, yeah, I was doing it.
(12:04):
I was responsible for my ownsuccess.
That's one of the themes Iwrote about in my last book.
Sell Without Selling Out isjust yeah, you have to sell or
you have to find that situation,demand it even.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yep.
So, Andy, I have a coupleoddball questions here.
I think they're gonna makesense here in just a moment.
But of all the places you'vetraveled and all the vacations
you've had, where is yourfavorite location?
If you had to go on onevacation, you only get one left.
Where are you going on vacation?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
One left, it'd probably be Hawaii.
Yeah, one of the benefits ofbeing on the West Coast for most
of my life is Hawaii's prettyclose and it's just a place that
speaks to me, I guess.
And so, yeah, I think I've been.
No, I not think I know.
(12:56):
Last time we're there wecounted up over 50 times.
So yeah, and so that's yeah,that's sort of my go-to voice.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And then, what is your favorite beverage?
Could?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
be, anything.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What's your favorite drink?
Alcoholic or non-alcoholic,just what's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Well, probably water, but when I'm having fun, yeah,
I enjoy a good beer.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
All right.
So imagine that it's way intothe future.
You are sitting on a beach inHawaii and there's just beer.
Everywhere there's beers comingout of the sand.
There's people walking aroundthe beach with beers on trays,
everywhere.
There's beers coming in in thewaves.
(13:49):
There's beers behind you andyou're retired.
You are fully retired.
You're no longer doing any morework.
What is the last thing that youever sold?
What was your last sale?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh, myself.
So, yeah, that's my business,right?
I mean, if, whether it's aconsulting project or a coaching
project or, you know, I havesponsors for my podcasts selling
sponsorships, you know,ultimately it's me that I'm
(14:23):
selling and it has been for,yeah, since I started my own
company.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So if the last sale I'll push a little bit deeper
the last sale of you, what isthat looking like?
Is that a specific coaching job?
Is it selling you to a company?
Or what specifically does thatlast sale of Andy Paul look like
?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to myage, is hard to predict my
horizon.
Yeah, that's a good question, Idon't know.
Probably, probably I had a gas,probably sponsorship of the
podcast, I imagine, you know, ifI I think over time I could see
(15:09):
myself focusing mostly on that.
But, yeah, hard to say.
I mean, I still, I still amexcited about what I do and I'm
still excited about what I doand still curious about, yeah,
(15:30):
opportunities to, to you know,spread the word and that you
know the things that I'mpassionate about in terms of
sales and terms of sort of thehuman first selling and and
obviously, with that event of AIin the last year and the form
you know, chat, generative AI Ihad, yeah, been very been
energized to say, okay, actually, I think that humans have a
(15:54):
very central role to playing insales.
It might be in a little bitsmaller patch in sales because I
think there'll be fewerproducts that need humans
involved in selling of them, butI still think those are
strategic products that are veryimportant to companies and if
we're gonna be involved, as Isaid before, if we're gonna be
involved, we need to do a betterjob and in order to maintain
(16:18):
relevance.
So I, as a mission, I still seethat as something that I want
to be involved with.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I guess if you're in sales, you never really start
stop selling, do you?
Until the day that you die,you're always selling something.
Might not be something formoney, but you're always selling
yourself.
You're selling others aroundyou on whatever idea that you
have.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, I mean, let me put a different spin on that,
because I wrote about this inSell Without Selling Out it's.
You know what's the job of asalesperson?
And so many sellers think, well, my job is to persuade a buyer
to purchase my product.
And, as I wrote about in thebook, I don't think that's the
job at all and it certainlyhasn't been the way I've
(17:01):
practiced it, nor do I thinkit's the way that most top
performers do.
Instead, I think job of aseller is to listen to your
buyers, understand the thingsthat are most important to them
and then help them get that.
And so this different spin forwhat you're saying in terms of
always sort of selling is that'sactually, to me, has always
(17:26):
been a life lesson, right,what's my job as a spouse?
Well, it's to listen to myspouse to understand the things
that are most important to her,then help her get those things.
You know what's my job as acolleague?
You know my job is to listen tomy colleagues understand things
that are most important to themand then help them get that.
So, yeah, to the extent thatyou follow that path, as I
(17:49):
believe we do, sure you alwaysserve selling, but to me,
selling is really a form ofhelping.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, and it certainly should be, and I think
that's where the point that youmade earlier.
You know, sales organizationsare sometimes run like in the
same way that have been ran for50 years and you get into
helping buyers buy or I guessthat would be a way to say it
right Helping buyers buy versus50 years ago, where it was more
(18:23):
pushing your product.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, well, unfortunately it's still the way
it's practiced by most sellers.
It's still pushing the product,yeah, I mean it's.
And this, I think, is really acritical thing, and I think you
know we've been stuck in thislong.
This mindset for so long about,yeah, we're going to go
persuade somebody to buy ourproduct is that we really lose
track of the buyer and the wholething.
(18:46):
And it's the buyer.
Based on the study.
Everybody's seen the studies Ipresume most people have you
know from Gartner and otherssaying, I think Gartner's number
is, you know, 75% of B2B buyers, decision makers, don't want to
talk to salespeople.
And you know my take on that,which I like to say as well
(19:07):
that's completely wrong.
That's 100% of buyers don'twant to talk to salespeople.
But if you're a seller and youfind yourself talking to a buyer
, it's because they need to.
They didn't need to talk to you.
They wouldn't.
So you know what are you goingto?
If they need, what do they needfrom you?
(19:28):
Well, they need your help andit's and this is you know I
differ with other people.
They don't need your help tobuy something, they need your
help to make a decision, and Ithink those are sort of a little
bit different, right, and whatthe decision they're making is.
The decision they're making isare we going to make this change
in our business?
And that change is representedby buying this product or
(19:49):
service that we're looking at.
And if you can really focus onsaying, well, yeah, I'm going to
help the buyer make thisdecision to make a change, then
you're sort of taking it from adifferent perspective as well.
I've got this, you know, I'mgoing to talk to them, I'm going
to discover them, I'm going toqualify them, we're going to
demo them.
Yeah, blah, blah, blah.
It's like, well, okay, well, ifthe buyer is looking at making
(20:11):
a change, what's, what's sort ofthe pattern they're following?
Well the pattern they'refollowing is hmm, we need to
sort of define the opportunityof what we want to achieve by
making this change right, and sowe need to find the outcomes we
want to achieve.
We need to find sort of thechallenges, internal hurdles we
(20:33):
may have to make that change.
And then, once we've done that,then we'll go out in the market
and say, okay, how can we makethis change Right?
What are the products orservices available to help us
make this change?
And the last decision we makeis who are you going to make the
change with?
Well, most salespeople come inand start pitching their product
, right?
Well, the buyer is in this modeof saying look, I'm just trying
(20:55):
to define what it is we'regoing to do, and that's why
they're talking to you, becausethat's the help they need.
But we're so out of line withthat in the way that most sales
organizations are set theirprocesses.
You know, look at the stages inCRM system.
They don't align to this.
Hey, we're trying to find whatwe're going to do, then we're
going to talk about how we'regoing to do it and then third
thing we do is choose who to doit with.
(21:16):
So, challenge for us as sellers.
I said to maintain relevance iswe really have to align
ourselves exactly with what thebuyer is going through.
Right now it looks like there'stwo things that are going on
there's the seller's job andthen there's the buyer's job.
Well, it's really just one jobthat's happening.
(21:36):
That's the buyer trying to makea decision, and we said we need
to be much more closely alignedwith that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, I love that idea of the buyer being the hero
of the story, as opposed to theseller or the company being the
hero of the storyline.
It's kind of switching.
You know, if you're creating anarrative or a storyline, it's
the buyer.
That's like they're the onesthat are should be winning and
that the hero of this wholething, this whole journey.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Exactly.
Well, it's interesting we havethis whole sort of you know, the
ties crested a little bit, butyeah, and sort of 2018, 2019,
2021, all the emphasis onstorytelling right, especially
in certain, the pandemic is, youknow, we have tell stories,
which is true, but I think mostpeople missed the mark about
(22:26):
what story we're sociallytelling and I think Richie, you
had that as we're telling thebuyer story.
That's the only story they wantto hear.
They want to hear their story.
You know how they're going toprosper as a result of making
this change in their business.
And, yeah, sellers were just notvery good at sort of creating
(22:48):
what I wrote about selfstorytelling.
This vision of what successlooks like and this is something
actually happens has to happenvery early in the buyer's
process of making the decision,because then that becomes a
target at which all of yoursubsequent sales efforts and
efforts to help the buyer arefocused on.
(23:08):
Let's reach agreement on whatit is, what the success looks
like, and then, from that point,we have a much better focus
discussion about how we can helpyou.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
So I want to just ask a few questions about your
career.
We kind of start, we're goingto.
We've asked about thisfictitious last sale and now
we're going to jump to the otherend of the spectrum and talk
about first sale and some othernotable sales along the way that
we have that we're curiousabout.
But I have a feeling that we'regoing to.
(23:40):
You know, hear how some ofthese themes developed in your
career through some of thesenotable sales and, you know,
perhaps our listeners will havesome good takeaways from these
stories as well.
So, jumping into it, what's thefirst sale you ever remember
making?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, I remember.
So I was working for my firstJava college, working for a
company called Burroughs, andBurroughs at the time was the
second largest computer companyin the world behind IBM.
But as for antitrust againstIBM, at that point the next
seven companies combined werestill just a small fraction of
IBM's revenues, and so at thetime in the industry they called
(24:19):
it IBM and the seven dwarfs.
So we were dwarf number one.
And in order to earn our stripesto go to a training class to
learn how to sell computersystems, burroughs had this
legacy product line of addingmachines.
So at the time they were aboutthe size of a small microwave
(24:42):
oven and cost $250 in those days, which you know, equivalent of
1,000 plus these days.
But that was when handheldcalculators were just coming out
and they cost $50 bucks, $35bucks, and that's what we were
competing against.
But we had to sell $5,000 worthof calculators, desktop adding
(25:03):
machines, for they'd qualify tosend us to computer training
school.
So, as in at that time, livingin Oakland, california, in the
San Francisco Bay area and myterritory was the East Bay area
and I would drive to businessparks and, you know, 8.30 in the
morning, get kicked out of theoffice by the boss, we'd drive
(25:23):
down to business park, park thecar, computer under one or
calculator under one arm and aflip-chat portfolio under the
other and just go door to doorto door to door to door.
And I hated it.
But so I don't know, sometimeafter about a month doing it,
(25:44):
because soon after I got hired Igot sent away for two weeks to
initial sales training class andthen came back and go right
down to the territory.
So it was a Friday afternoon.
It was like well, thesituation's right.
I was completely frustrated anddemoralized and, yeah, you
(26:06):
convince yourself to make onemore call.
So I was actually in Fremont,california, in South Bay, and
there was a business calledBucks Welding and I'd sort of
the tail end of this strip mall.
I've been cold calling on, sofigure, it was probably
improbable, but went in and youwalk in this welding shop.
(26:30):
I'd never been in a weldingshop before and the thing was it
was like walking into a roomwith no light source at all
because the soot was covered allthe walls and it was just
completely dark in there and Ilooked like to serve one man
shop and I got my nicethree-piece dark, soot,
pinstripe white shirt and Buckwas there.
(26:54):
And Buck, I have no idea howwell Buck was, because he was
covered in soot from head tohead, and so the foot looked
like those old pictures of coalminers and I don't know he must
have just sensed that I neededsomething because it was like
business like this needs tospend $350 on a desktop adding
(27:16):
machine.
But he was so nice.
He said, well, show me what youhave Right.
And instead of just saying, getthe hell out of here, is that,
show me what you have.
So he cleared a space on top ofa workbench and I went through
my standard demonstration ofthis desktop adding machine and
he just moved me and he saidgreat, I'll take it, I was just
(27:39):
like what.
So I think my first sale wasmaybe somewhat of a pity sale
and I thank Buck if that was thecase.
But yeah, that was the firstone and made for the start of
this career.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
An amazing career.
It is Amazing career.
It still is.
Yeah, it helps us let's go fromthe first sale to the biggest
sale and kind of the process ofmaking the sale.
I'm kind of curious becauseyou're talking about satellite
communications, which soundslike it's really major.
(28:16):
It could be another deal in thecomputer systems.
What would you say your biggestsale would be?
Maybe the podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, and the biggest sale was certainly a computer
and satellite communicationsnetworks.
Yeah, and we got someinteresting ones.
I probably can't talk about allof them because but you know,
the last sort of real big onewas with a company that was in
the oil services business thatwanted to have a network where
(28:49):
they could transmit video imagesfrom the well heads that they
were drilling from around theworld to their geologists who
are centrally located in theUnited States, so they could
look at the composition of whatwas coming back up and make
decisions about drilling and soon.
That was big, and that was onewhere the size of the deal is so
(29:13):
large that our company size wasrelatively small at that point
that the potential revenue was amultiple of our own company
revenues.
So the the Then customers saidwell, you guys need to have a
bigger company service primecontractor on this.
So we are competing againstHughes aerospace use network
(29:35):
systems, which is huge, multibillion dollar company, and that
time I think our revenues areabout 50 million a year.
And so they they basicallymatched us with a large defense
contractor to be a primecontractor on the deal, and as
(29:58):
we start working through theprocess as a small company are.
Our thing was always how do we,how do we set the stakes of the
competition right?
Instead, of, how do we changethe buyer's paradigm for what
they think they're they want toaccomplish?
Because it's also like achallenger method, if you will,
right.
But how do we get them toreally shift?
(30:19):
Because we could do that, thenwe thought, okay, we have chance
to play on more level playingfield Versus always playing by
the big guys rules, because thenit becomes the price
competition.
So so we're able to.
We had some ideas for some newimplementation of satellite
communications technology tohelp them save bandwidth and
costs and and Is really criticalfor getting their buying pretty
(30:44):
early.
So they down selected into Ahandful of vendors.
They're talking to the two,which was us against this,
against Hughes.
And yeah, we're pretty surethat you had the inside track on
on winning, but you can neverbe sure.
(31:05):
So I've been taught early on bymy first boss is that, look,
you always, you always want tobe the third option, meaning
that if it boils down to you andsomeone else, the way you
increase your odds of winning isyou always have two options you
present to the buyer.
So then comes a choice betweenthem, you and you, and that's
(31:33):
what I did.
So I did is I went out andfound another Large prime
contractor, in this caseactually IBM, to also put in a
bid using, based on ourtechnology, and I think that's
what Enabled us really tosolidify the win was that when
the buyer looked at it wasn'tjust a choice between us versus
the other guy, was us versus theother guy, versus another
(31:56):
version of us.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
That was like different Like this.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Really critical lesson that sellers Really need
to take the heart is and I'vedone this throughout my entire
careers Is you never want tosingle thread.
Your offer Is.
Even if you're selling astandard product, you need to
find a way to Package up atleast two options, if not more,
for the buyer to consider foryour product or your service.
(32:22):
And I said that's why I alwayscall it the third option, and
you want to be that third optionand if you do that really
doesn't matter the size ofopportunity.
Working on it will increaseyour odds of winning the deal.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah, it's just, it's easy to it's, it requires a
little thought.
If you have just a standardproduct yeah, we saw a SAS
software product Well, but youneed to sit down with everyone
in the product and your salesmanager and the CEO and so on.
So, well, yeah, how do we?
What can we structure?
That's a little bit differentOption and a different
alternative for us.
(33:05):
And everybody talks about multithreading and we're talking to
all the multiple decision makers.
Sure, those People sellers havebeen doing that, yeah, since
the beginning of selling.
But this idea of saying, look,you're being more creative how
you present the options, becausethat really plays in the way
people make decisions.
You know there's been a fairamount of research into this and
(33:25):
and Generally, you know sort ofsequential decision making, as
you know, people identify aproblem, they identify options
for, yeah, that could be asolution for the solutions, and
they choose one.
And there was, after you'veever read the book Decisive by
the Heath Brothers, reallyinteresting book and and in
(33:46):
there they talk about researchthat had been done by this
Pioneer and corporate decisionmaking guy from Ohio State
University I think Not sure he'sstill alive, but formally Ohio
State named Paul Nut and hefound that when you know
companies go through his processof identifying, defining the
problem, creating options forthat they want to present to
(34:10):
management for approval.
Is that an overwhelming majority?
The case, I think, is likeninety seven percent of the case
, or something.
Is there only present twooptions to decision makers?
And yeah, you can then start tosee as well, gosh, what if you
present three options?
Right, that suddenly it starts,starts changing the game.
(34:35):
And so you know, this idea ofcreating multiple options I
think is really, really powerfuland sellers, you could do it,
whether it's delivery,implementation terms, you know
there's lots of things thatlevers you can pull to make that
happen.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
You change your odds, right?
I mean you want to start offwith 50 50 odds, you or the
other, or your competition, andthen, by bringing another
version of you to the table.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Now your odds are two thirds, you know, yeah well,
theoretically right and that's,but I think this is it's a
larger point you bring up whichis really important is that,
again, this is where I wastaught and the way I learned and
the way I've practiced itthroughout my careers.
We're in as sellers, we're inthe probabilities, business
(35:21):
Plain and simple right.
So part of our thought processaround every action we take with
a buyer should be is thisincreasing my odds of winning
the deal or not?
And if, what I'm going todeliver to you?
If the question I'm going toask, whatever, if it's not going
to do that, then why am I doingit?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Very good point.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And so, yeah, focus on probabilities.
Yeah, what's going to increasethe probabilities of me winning?
And it's yeah.
I remember reading aboutprofessional poker player I
forget who it was that theyinterviewed and he says well,
yeah, people think this is agame of chance, but it's a game
of skill, right?
There's a reason why the peopleare at the table at the World
(36:04):
Series of Poker or whatever,because it's not because the
cards have fallen their way,because at each move they make,
they're calculating theprobabilities of winning based
on the move.
And I think in sales, the verysimilar situation is, yeah, it
would be very intentional aboutevery step you take.
And again, one of the themes Iwrote about selling out and
(36:30):
being intentional that, hey,this is going to increase my
odds of winning.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So what's an example of a sale where maybe the odds
weren't in your favor Forwhatever reason, it was the
hardest, most stressful, likemade you kind of rethink, like
what's going on here?
What was the sale, that GrayHair, inducing All of these
(36:55):
types of thoughts and thingsthat come to mind?
Yeah, and what comes to mindthere?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Probably well, maybe a couple.
One is when I lost right andwhich was such a lesson learned.
At the time, this company wasselling radio stations, just
beginning to use radio networks,are just beginning to use
digital distribution orprogramming to affiliates and so
(37:25):
, coming as with we were aroundthe companies that was getting
that business and providing thatdigital distribution via
satellite.
And yeah, we're competing forthe distribution network for ABC
radio and it was pretty earlyin my career and but nonetheless
(37:51):
I should have known better byguess.
But the lesson learned is wethought we had it and you know,
we had validation to the pointthat from our stakeholders that
oh, yeah, this is the solutionwe're going to recommend, but it
(38:12):
was a big enough deal and wethis is part we missed or we
didn't get enough face time withthe CEO and yeah, I don't
believe that every product needsto be sold to the CEO, but this
is one that did and we did nothave enough exposure to them and
we're competing against theincumbent and they did and
(38:37):
despite everyone in the buyingcommittee telling us we had it,
we didn't get it and yeah, thatwas that was stressful, having
to explain to the board why wedidn't get it.
Yeah, it's just a misstep andso lesson learned right.
(38:59):
It just and it's.
I think the lesson is forsellers is that I think that
said before is we don't weoveremphasize in general in
sales that you need to get tothe C suite, because not every
product, you know, if you'reselling a copier to a big
company, it doesn't need to goto the C suite.
If you're selling, you know,paper clips, and in my first
(39:20):
book I lay out this little gridthat shows you how to sort of
figure out how high within theorganization you need to sell,
based on sort of the strategicnature of the product you know
as a product sort of tactical onone end of the spectrum versus
strategic and strategiccertified by cost and complexity
and risk.
So, yeah, yeah, that was.
(39:43):
That was painful, and mostlythe aftermath was painful
because, yeah, so I had to gofrom CEO on the board and
explain why we didn't haveforecast that quarter, because
we didn't get that deal.
You know there's another bigdeal is we're in a company that
was one that really enabled usto go public and so we're
(40:06):
selling to a large, you know,the largest wireless service
providers in Asia.
They want to have this networkcommunication, satellite
communications, sort of backbonecommunications, are expanding
cellular networks in Asia andsorry.
An interesting story in thatthey had originally asked us to
(40:27):
bid on it, but we were.
We looked at the RFP and saidlook, you know, we're way too
small to participate at thattime in the company, we didn't
have the resources, we couldn'thave.
Responded.
I stayed in touch with thedecision makers and after about
a year and a half almost twoyears they hadn't made a
decision.
So I contacted the guy again.
I said so what's happening?
(40:49):
You haven't made the decision.
He says oh, we haven't, youknow, found something that can
do what we want.
But we're getting serious aboutit again because we need to do
this from business endpoints.
So I said, well, hey, can wecome in and get a shot at that?
So, yeah, see an CEO and Ihopped on plane, went to Hong
Kong, sort of blew away withthis presentation about, because
(41:10):
we had put a lot of thought inthe intervening two years about
what we were going to do andwhat we could do.
But yeah, the stakes are prettyhigh because we knew this was
going to be the deal.
If we won was going to enablethe company to sort of take a
step up and sort of was drivingour plans to go public as a
company.
So our big stress was we again.
(41:33):
We knew we had the besttechnical solution, best
business solution, but the sizeof the competitor was such we
knew they could walk in any dayand drop their prices 20%, take
the business from us, and wecouldn't respond to it.
So, yeah, that was.
(41:53):
That was pretty stressful as wesort of got to the last month
or so and and before they said,ok, yeah, we're going to do a
contract with you as just livingliterally every day thinking
that the competitor would comein and just steal it from us.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Oh yeah, that's tough .
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Well, it spoke to the spoke to a couple things.
So what it spoke to us is thelevel of trust that we'd built
and credibility we'd built withthe customer, even though we're
smaller, even though we'reunproven and we certainly had
some hiccups in theimplementation, but they're
patient with us because thevision of what we created
together, of what they couldachieve, was not one the
(42:33):
competitor could match.
So, yeah, they may have beenable to buy it at some point,
ultimately less expensively, andI'm sure the competitor offered
the huge discounts, but theychose not to take it because
they had more trust that wecould deliver what they wanted,
and that is such a criticalthing that that people just
underestimate all the time.
It's, end of the day, it'sreally.
It's not not about your productIf you assume that having a
(42:56):
competitive product at acompetitive price is table
stakes the your ability to winthe deals based on the
connections you've made and theway you've differentiated
yourself at the human level andhelp, the way you help the buyer
make that decision.
Not not the product and theprice.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It is all about that.
They're all about making thosedecisions.
So there's stressful, misseddeal, stressful deal.
You ever get in slumps.
Sometimes you just get a bedand you're like you know what?
Can I still make the sales thatI need to make?
Do I still have the it factor?
(43:33):
I think we all go throughslumps.
And if you're feeling down orslumpy, I guess is there
something that you do to turnyour mind around and get out of
it.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I don't.
I'm not really conscious aboutbeing in slumps per se.
There are situations you findyourself in that are more
challenging than others, and soI think it's it's more for me a
case of, ok, trying to figureout well, what is the situation
I'm in and being reallypragmatic with yourself about
(44:11):
you know what's going on, thatthat's causing it, and it could
be oftentimes it's externalRight Is is.
I think people don't pay enoughattention to the impact of
things that are going on intheir life outside of work that
have an impact on their abilityto sell, because, again, we're
serving, that we're in thishuman business and you know,
(44:31):
performing perceptions of usbased on how we come across and
if your mind is is distracted bythings that are happening
outside of work, yeah, can havea canaveral impact on you and
you're like to be, I said,pragmatic and self self
actualized, but I may use thatterm to to degree that you can
take a step back and say this ishaving impact.
(44:53):
So, in my case, I went throughsome marriage issues and and
these marital issues, yeah,definitely had an impact and I
think over a period of six, ninemonths, I could start to see
that my performance was just notnot the level it needed to be
at and so, yeah, to me it's moreof those type of situations and
(45:18):
, hey, you know I lost my mojo.
Whatever, right it's, it's,yeah, it's more more the
external and I see it, andpeople I've managed and worked
with and so on is is, yeah, sure, they're frustrations and job
and those can build and they canplay a role, but I'd say, more
(45:40):
often than not, when somebody'sreally struggling is I always
start with what's happeningoutside of work?
Yeah, it looks like it lookedlast time.
Yeah, I mean sure it could be aboss.
I might one time work for aboss that was just intolerable
and had to get out of thesituation because the person was
literally insane.
But yeah, more often than notit's been other things.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It makes me think back to when I was playing
baseball.
You know, one of the bestmanagers I've played for was
Rick Renneria, who went on tomanage Cubs and then the White
Sox, and I'm mad at the city ofChicago for both of those teams
letting him go.
Just such an amazing guy, butyeah, he was.
He knew what was happening ineverybody's life outside the
(46:23):
field as well, and I feel likeit's probably for exactly what
you're talking about, because heknew that life is life.
You know, like people there'sthis saying of like oh, he's the
nicest guy off the field, buthe's an absolute monster on the
field.
It's like well, mikey over heredoesn't stop being Mikey when
he steps onto the baseball field.
Like that's also part of hislife and who he is.
(46:46):
You know what.
There's a lot of crossover inthat.
So, yeah, that resonates quitea bit Kind of a two-part
question here.
What is the sale that you are,regardless of the size of the
sale or how much money wasinvolved, what's the sale that
you're most proud of?
And is there a sale that comesto mind that you're least proud
(47:09):
of where you're like man, I wishI could have done some things
differently, or I'm not supersatisfied with how this went
down.
So is it the most proud of sale?
You're like man, I feel greatabout this.
And then there's this othersale that you wish you might
could do over again or dodifferently.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean the least proud are the
ones you lose, right, forreasons that were avoidable, as,
like I described, most proud,yeah, I think one of the things
that and you talked about salesthat maybe informed or reflected
(47:50):
my vision of selling and theimportance of certain things,
that of the human side of thingsis so company I was with we
were negotiating a deal to sellthe first real-time
satellite-deliveredentertainment system to
commercial airplanes, right?
(48:11):
So this was well before Wi-Fiand all these other things.
This was real-time radiodelivered to the seatback, and
so at the time there were noscreens.
This audio video was gonna comea few years after that, a
number of years after that.
But we were in this Fortune5,000, 500, actually Fortune 50
(48:33):
firm to who is sponsoring thisnetwork, and so, as back in
these coasts with the guy thatworked with me, we were
negotiating the final contract,and so I sat across the table
from the senior VP of thisFortune 50 company and some of
(48:54):
his people were staff membersand myself, and the first day we
made pretty good progress.
We had planned to be thereabout three days to finish the
contract, so at the end of thefirst day I got a call from
headquarters back on the WestCoast.
That's when the co-founders ofthe company, saying how are the
negotiations going?
(49:15):
Good, I think we're day awaymaybe from oh, great, great.
He says we've got a bit of aproblem.
So, oh, really, what would thatbe?
He said, well, we were justreviewing all the spreadsheets
that we had put together tocalculate the costs of doing the
(49:37):
project.
The project had two parts.
One is they were paying us todevelop the product and then
they were gonna buy a certainnumber of units.
And they said, yeah, there wassome stake on the spreadsheet
and we're gonna have to changeour prices.
And so this is sort of aproblem.
We were right, you know, in themidst of the contract
negotiations, we've pretty muchagreed on those.
He says yeah.
(49:59):
He says yeah, we're gonna haveto make change, otherwise we're
just gonna pull out of the deal.
I said, okay, well, you knowwhat are we talking about.
We're off by about half, I'mlike.
So what you're saying is thatwe have to double our prices.
(50:20):
He said yeah, yeah, otherwiseit's just, you know, we're not
gonna make any money.
And the CEO, I'm sorry putsfoot down.
And if we can't get at least acertain amount, which turned out
to be a little bit less thantwice, but still so I had it was
.
At the end of the day, I had togo back into this conference
(50:41):
room to this you know senior VPof this large enterprise and say
we've got a bit of a problem.
And it may not surprise youhere the person, just he
completely lost it.
I've never been yelled at likethat, accused of being you know
all the worst things in theworld, bait and switch, blah,
(51:02):
blah, blah.
This went on and on and on.
And then they had securityescort us from the business,
from the building.
Two days later we got the dealsigned at the price we needed
and you know, the lesson therewas that we had built up a
(51:24):
tremendous amount of trust,credibility, to the point where
we could sit down with them andexplain that the error was not.
You know we're not trying todeceive them.
It was not one of intention, itwas purely a bit of a mistake.
You know, apologized.
Yeah, we've made a couple otherconcessions relative to helping
me expedite the project and soon.
(51:46):
But you know, basically twodays later signed the deal for
almost double the price awayoriginally had been.
It was not fun, by a stretch ofimagination, but it showed the
power of the connections thatyou make with people, the
relationships and it's there'ssuch a sort of a sphere, almost
(52:07):
fear of using the wordrelationships in sales in the
last five, 10 years or so.
It's like, oh, it's not aboutrelationships, buyers don't want
to be friends, and it's like,well, sure, that's trust me,
these people weren't my friends.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But we had this trust-based relationship that
existed.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
You know we had the credibility.
We, you know we were completely.
I thought we'd beingtransparent, up to it, but we
became even more transparentafterwards.
We had to be to show them.
You know where the air happenedand why, and you know at a
level of detail that theyunderstood that this was not,
you know, a bait and switch.
But absent those relationships,absent having invested in
(52:51):
building those, we would havebeen done.
You know, the deal have beendone and just off the table
altogether, and we weren'tcompeting at the same time, we
were the only one that reallyhad the capabilities of doing
this at that point in time.
So it was strategic both for usas a company as well as for,
you know, the customer.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
It's one of the themes in your lessons learned.
It's after your story is.
It's all about thoserelationships.
It's all about the trust andcredibility that you can provide
.
Yeah right, yeah well, did you?
Speaker 3 (53:27):
build and it's, it's, it's, it's a process, but you
have to do it intentionallybecause you know that it's
important and I think that'spart of what I really learned in
my career that a lot of sellersdon't have the value or the
benefit of is.
You know, when you're alwaysworking for Small companies who
are selling big things, right, Imean, there's a lot of startups
(53:49):
out there, especially in thesass world.
They're selling there, yeah,the software it's, yeah,
relative, the value of sass, thesass models, right, it's not a
big purchase up front.
You can grow into it, you canstart really small, a lot of
value on that, but the sellersdon't learn how to sell big.
And when you do that you beginto understand, yeah, that trust
(54:12):
really is important.
You have somebody signing upfor, you know, 10k a month for
you know, a subscription to asass product.
The risk profile is pretty low,right for the decision maker
Not that it's completely absent,because I can't always make bad
decisions, but when it's, yeah,millions and millions of
dollars, when it's strategicinitiative for the company,
(54:34):
because you know they're gettinginto a new business which often
times sets up companies usedour products is getting to the,
you know, new businesses toexpand their revenue, market
share or whatever.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
It becomes very different.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
And again, another company we were talking to, you
know, one of the largestcompanies world.
That time they want us to builda product for one of their
divisions and Been working thedeal for about a year and and it
got to point where it's time tobring CEO of my company to meet
(55:07):
the CEO of this division ofthis.
I said, one of the 10 largestcompanies world at that point
and you know, bring them in,that we're a great meeting.
I think it was really positiveas, walking out, my CEO turns to
me and said no way we'regetting that deal.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
I said what do you mean it?
Speaker 3 (55:28):
says, well, they're gonna pay us to develop this
product and they have on payrollMore engineers than we have in
an entire.
Then we have employees in ourcompany, people they're paying
week after week to developproducts like this.
There's no way they're gonnagive us, as I said no, you're
(55:49):
missing the point.
They are gonna give it to usbecause they trust us more than
they trust the people internallyto deliver the product they
need.
And, yeah, we got the deal.
Yeah, we didn't have a paper.
We did our product was purelyon paper and but that's, you
(56:12):
know, that's what we did as acompany.
It wasn't just me, it was, youknow, everybody that you know
interacted with the.
The customer was part ofbuilding that trust and that
credibility and we were verydeliberate about establishing
multiple touch points across ourorganization, across into there
the customer's organization.
But that was, that was it.
It was the relationships, theconnections.
(56:34):
You know, if you don't like theidea of relationships and say
the connections we built, theywere trust based, connection,
credibility based.
And yeah, I, every time I readand Haven't seen as much the
last year or two, but a coupleyears ago, like in the early
days of pandemic, it was themloud voices served downplaying
this idea of relationships andso on, and they were just yeah,
(56:57):
I was vocal and just sayingthese people are just flat out
wrong.
You know, as we're in abusiness of a human business, as
long as you're a human talkingto a human, this is going to be
important.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah, yeah, couldn't agree more.
You know, the human element ofthings is never going to go away
.
So last, last question here,and I'm kind of wrapping two
questions in the one again, butyeah, I think, yeah, I don't
think it's going to go away.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
But I think, as I mentioned before, I think that,
yeah, just the number ofproducts that require human
sellers to work with humanbuyers Is, you know, it's
continuing to shrink.
I mean, it's still a vastnumber of products, but it's,
it's inevitable that you know,we grow more and more
comfortable through the use oftechnology and AI Certainly help
(57:49):
.
This is buying things ofgreater complexity and cost
without human intervention andthat trend's going to continue,
but it's, it's.
I said, the number of productsthat still require the human is
still very, very large.
We're not going to see, youknow, there's, I don't.
If you remember, back in oh,2014, 2015, forrester put out a
(58:14):
report saying Some largefraction of B2B sellers would be
gone by the year 2020 andsuddenly we saw a net growth and
and B2B sales employment overthat period of time.
So Humans aren't going away yet.
But yeah, they're not goingaway yet.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Uh, ai is going to probably going to help humans
Sell good, right, if you'regoing to be able to sell.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
Good right If you're going to be correctly.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, good, but you know I think, um, buying is
always an emotional decision andyou know there's logic involved
.
But it's emotion based in a lotof ways and you need you need
help in making that decision anda good salesperson as the
person who's going to be helpingin that decision.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
Yeah, and people just need to.
Sellers need to keep in mind Ifthe buyer is talking to you,
it's not because they want to,it's because they need to.
So you need to understand whathelp they need from you.
That's motivating them to wantto talk to you.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Well, Andy, it's.
It's been a pleasure talking toyou here on the last cell um
our new podcast and and reallyappreciate you coming on and
sharing your sell stories withus.
Speaker 3 (59:34):
Oh well, kevin, thanks for having me and and
yeah, congratulations on yourpodcast.
Excited to see how it turns outfor you and and yeah, you guys
did a great job.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Thank you and for our listeners, where can they find
your new podcast?
Speaker 3 (59:49):
Wherever you listen to podcasts, so it's the win
rate podcast and, um, yeah, 2024we're gonna be making some,
yeah, exciting additions to itand, uh, going to multiple
episodes per week.
So they are very excited.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Perfect.
Thank you once again, thank you.
And welcome to episode two of the last cell,
where we investigate cellsthrough stories of great
salespeople.
We have one for you today, andyPaul, I'm Kevin Hill, one of
your hosts, along with Mr RichieDagle.
Richie, take it away.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You know, andy is one of my favorite authors of sales
books.
You know I like books, kevin,and I like right with most sales
books is that a third of thestuff, a third of the book, is
really good and two thirds ofit's kind of filler, it's like
you know.
But Andy Paul's book isdifferent.
It's straight, it's to thepoint.
Every page is really good, youknow, and his big thing is, hey,
(00:40):
be a good human.
Maybe that's the most importantthing and sales is to listen to
people and help people and be agood person.
And let's focus on how to dothat.
You know, and hear some ways todo that in sales Super cool
conversation and he's been partof some massive deals.
Like some of the deal sizes hewas discussing eight figure
(01:03):
deals like just wild stories.
I mean, he had some really,really cool stories in this
episode about navigating, youknow, multi-million dollar deals
and flying across continentsand like all the things that
happened.
One tactic which I'm not goingto give away, which was
fantastic, about how to betteryour odds when you're in a head
(01:24):
to head situation with somebodyelse, which I thought was
absolutely brilliant hint thatinvolves, you know, accessing
your partners and using themstrategically.
But really cool conversation.
What were your big takeaways,Kevin?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Just simplified.
I felt after we had aconversation with Andy that I
could go out and sell globalsatellite communications
tomorrow.
That's how simple he kind ofmade it and straightforward.
So I really appreciate that.
But without further ado, let'sjust jump right into the
conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So I think that's a good place to start.
Andy, I'm curious for someonewho ran a podcast and is
starting a new podcast whatadvice do you have for us who
you know, for Kevin and myself,who have also previously ran a
podcast, and we're here startinga new podcast?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, you know, for me I don't know if this is
advice for the audience or not,but for you, in terms of
starting a podcast, is advice Igive it a podcast is just
remember that people tune in tolisten to you and that's where
the relationship is built.
So, you know, just focus on,you know, inserting yourself
(02:42):
into the conversation, becausepeople ultimately are tuning in
to hear your point of view, moreso than the guests, because
that's where the relationshipexists.
But you know, in terms of otheradvice is just, yeah, find
interesting people to talk with.
I mean, you've done it forbefore.
You did it for three and a half, four years.
I've done it, gosh, for eightyears now and I find that I
(03:06):
always like say it's sort of oneof more selfish things I've
done in my business career,because I've probably talked to
a thousand guests over thatperiod of time.
And where else do you get theopportunity to talk to a
thousand smart, interestingpeople?
And, yeah, I've taken away asmuch from talking to them as
probably the audience has.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think there's an important point of doing
podcasts and something thatpeople overlook who haven't done
a podcast is how much you learn.
How much you learn from theguests that you talk to is
amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, and yeah, I'm a firm believer that you know
you're gonna find reallyinteresting, intriguing thoughts
and opinions from all spectrums.
You know people all across thespectrum, and so one of the
things I was intentional aboutwith the new podcast I launched
in July of this past yearwhereas my previous show had
(04:02):
done about 1200 episodes of aninterview podcast, which was, as
I said, fun and educational andinformative is I just wanted
more voices in the conversation.
So with this new formatpodcasts my show, the WinRate
podcast every episode is me andthree guests.
So I wanted to have as manydiverse voices, new voices, not
(04:22):
just the same sales authors and,you know, experts and so on,
but, yeah, people who areselling and people who are, yeah
, from all aspects of the salesand revenue process, not just as
authors and bloggers and so on.
And it's been great because wehave these conversations that
(04:43):
bring points of view forwardthat that people maybe don't
normally hear, and it's soimportant because I think sales
is sort of stuck.
You know, it's our recurringtheme of mine, and what I write
and what I talk about is thistechnology notwithstanding,
we're basically selling andmanaging sellers pretty much the
(05:05):
same way we have for 50 year,50 plus years, and it's we
really need to rethink, you know, I think, substantial elements
of how we go about the businessif we want to stay relevant in
the process to buyers, andbecause you know they
increasingly have options thatdon't involve talking to
salespeople not that they'reoptimal, but they can get the
(05:28):
job done.
And so I think, I said, if wewant to make sure that, as human
sellers, we stay relevant,things have to change.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
For sure, and Andy help us.
I mean there may be peoplelistening that aren't familiar
with you.
There is the.
I'd say there are few and farbetween, because you've done a
great job of getting your nameout there.
Your book is fantastic.
It's one of my favorite salesbooks, I have to say.
But for those people that maynot know you like just a quick
introduction and how you wentfrom where you were in sales to
(06:03):
where you are as an author andpodcast host and voice in the
space.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, I mean I've been doing this for a long time,
which I sort of lean into thesedays, because so, yeah, this is
my 46th year in sales.
So I was in the tech biz.
Yeah, I started off sellinglarge computer systems, you know
, on-premise computer systems,to companies that for many of
(06:32):
them were, were, is thereinitial for-end automation and
computerization, so just sort ofput a stake in the ground in
terms of timing.
So one of the things I learnedreally early on was was how do
you help the buyer and reallyfocus on that, how do you help
them make this decision?
Because it was a verymonumental decision for
(06:54):
companies at that point in timewas, you know, we've been
keeping basically large, youknow counting systems and cost,
job cost accounting systems andso on, selling a lot to the
construction industry, and thisis a big leap right, I mean one
that we sort of forget abouttoday.
So for me, it really got me inthis mindset of, oh, my job
really isn't about pushing myproducts, really have to help
(07:15):
these people make this decision,to make this change it's really
, I said, decisive change intheir business.
So did that?
I worked at Apple in the veryearly days of Apple, worked for
a variety of startups up untilthe year about year 2000.
It's been about 15 yearsselling large satellite
communication systems to largeenterprises around the world.
(07:38):
So I wanted to start my own gigand my expertise really was how
do you help small, no-namecompanies which all these
startups were go and competeagainst the big guys for big
orders and win?
And that was I had been hiredand worked for a variety of
succession of startups doingthat.
So I started my own company,working with, again, small,
(08:03):
mid-sized companies specificallyon that task.
I'd help them learn how to win,compete and win.
And then sort of got the bug towrite a book.
So in year 2000, 2011, wrote myfirst book, got the bug for
podcasting in 2015,.
Started my podcast and, yeah,podcast got acquired in year
(08:25):
2000, or 2020, excuse me and Iproduced that under contract to
come and acquire the podcast.
But then sort of went on my ownpath earlier this year and
started a new one.
And, yeah, didn't anticipatewhen I wrote my first book that
there would be an audience forit as more sort of scratching an
(08:46):
itch and turned out peopleliked it and so one book led to
two, led to three and now I'mactually hoping 24, shooting to
get my next book published.
Congratulations, oh, thanks.
Yeah, it's been fun, right?
I think that one of theelements that people miss and I
(09:07):
think it's somewhat nature ofthe way the business has evolved
is that you don't often hearsalespeople talk about having
fun.
And I had this incredibly funcareer and have had this
incredibly fun career and anumber of different chapters.
You know I start off in directsales.
I said selling to theconstruction industry these
computer systems, and then gotinvolved at Apple in the early
(09:30):
days of Apple and 81 joinedApple.
You know it's a couple hundredmillion dollar company there,
not a multi-billion billiondollar company.
So, yeah, got involved inchannel sales, which I hadn't
been involved in before and thengot back into direct selling,
(09:50):
selling satellite communicationsystems what I know about
satellite communication systems.
I did that for 15 years forthree different companies and,
yeah, it gave me the opportunityto travel the world.
I've sold on every continentbut Antarctica dealt with huge
companies that everybody knowsand it was just fun, right.
(10:15):
I mean we were the underdog bydefinition.
Every deal we went into we werethe underdog.
And learning to be able tooperate in that environment, to
be able to win, you know, seven,eight, nine-figured yields,
competing at these megacompanies, was just a gas.
(10:35):
But again, you don't hear peopletalk about the fun of it,
because it was so creative, itdemanded so much creativity and
doing things different.
And I said, you're always sortof the underdog.
How do you help the buyer andhow do you differentiate
yourself?
So that part sort of seems tobe missing these days and
(10:59):
because, yeah, it tends to bemore about hey, we've got our
process, I want you to complywith our process.
This is our playbook.
You know, here are the steps,that's it.
Ah, da, da, da, da, da.
And I think the thing thatkeeps people in sales especially
the top performers, you know,certainly true in my case is
autonomy.
And that's part of what makesselling funds.
(11:21):
You have the autonomy to saylook, this is, yeah, my first
sales job.
First sales job.
Yeah, my boss was very clearyou are the president of this
territory.
Right, you're the CEO.
Make your number.
You know, obviously we operatewithin frameworks and guidelines
and so on, but other than that,go make it happen.
And you know, having thatfreedom early in your career,
(11:44):
that constantly be experimentingand feel like you're in charge
of your success is.
I found that that really becameimportant to me as I looked for
different jobs as I moved up inmy career.
That autonomy was reallyimportant and I think it helped
me perform at higher levelsbecause, yeah, I was doing it.
(12:04):
I was responsible for my ownsuccess.
That's one of the themes Iwrote about in my last book.
Sell Without Selling Out isjust yeah, you have to sell or
you have to find that situation,demand it even.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yep.
So, Andy, I have a coupleoddball questions here.
I think they're gonna makesense here in just a moment.
But of all the places you'vetraveled and all the vacations
you've had, where is yourfavorite location?
If you had to go on onevacation, you only get one left.
Where are you going on vacation?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
One left, it'd probably be Hawaii.
Yeah, one of the benefits ofbeing on the West Coast for most
of my life is Hawaii's prettyclose and it's just a place that
speaks to me, I guess.
And so, yeah, I think I've been.
No, I not think I know.
(12:56):
Last time we're there wecounted up over 50 times.
So yeah, and so that's yeah,that's sort of my go-to voice.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And then, what is your favorite beverage?
Could?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
be, anything.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What's your favorite drink?
Alcoholic or non-alcoholic,just what's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Well, probably water, but when I'm having fun, yeah,
I enjoy a good beer.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
All right.
So imagine that it's way intothe future.
You are sitting on a beach inHawaii and there's just beer.
Everywhere there's beers comingout of the sand.
There's people walking aroundthe beach with beers on trays,
everywhere.
There's beers coming in in thewaves.
(13:49):
There's beers behind you andyou're retired.
You are fully retired.
You're no longer doing any morework.
What is the last thing that youever sold?
What was your last sale?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh, myself.
So, yeah, that's my business,right?
I mean, if, whether it's aconsulting project or a coaching
project or, you know, I havesponsors for my podcasts selling
sponsorships, you know,ultimately it's me that I'm
(14:23):
selling and it has been for,yeah, since I started my own
company.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So if the last sale I'll push a little bit deeper
the last sale of you, what isthat looking like?
Is that a specific coaching job?
Is it selling you to a company?
Or what specifically does thatlast sale of Andy Paul look like
?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to myage, is hard to predict my
horizon.
Yeah, that's a good question, Idon't know.
Probably, probably I had a gas,probably sponsorship of the
podcast, I imagine, you know, ifI I think over time I could see
(15:09):
myself focusing mostly on that.
But, yeah, hard to say.
I mean, I still, I still amexcited about what I do and I'm
still excited about what I doand still curious about, yeah,
(15:30):
opportunities to, to you know,spread the word and that you
know the things that I'mpassionate about in terms of
sales and terms of sort of thehuman first selling and and
obviously, with that event of AIin the last year and the form
you know, chat, generative AI Ihad, yeah, been very been
energized to say, okay, actually, I think that humans have a
(15:54):
very central role to playing insales.
It might be in a little bitsmaller patch in sales because I
think there'll be fewerproducts that need humans
involved in selling of them, butI still think those are
strategic products that are veryimportant to companies and if
we're gonna be involved, as Isaid before, if we're gonna be
involved, we need to do a betterjob and in order to maintain
(16:18):
relevance.
So I, as a mission, I still seethat as something that I want
to be involved with.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I guess if you're in sales, you never really start
stop selling, do you?
Until the day that you die,you're always selling something.
Might not be something formoney, but you're always selling
yourself.
You're selling others aroundyou on whatever idea that you
have.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, I mean, let me put a different spin on that,
because I wrote about this inSell Without Selling Out it's.
You know what's the job of asalesperson?
And so many sellers think, well, my job is to persuade a buyer
to purchase my product.
And, as I wrote about in thebook, I don't think that's the
job at all and it certainlyhasn't been the way I've
(17:01):
practiced it, nor do I thinkit's the way that most top
performers do.
Instead, I think job of aseller is to listen to your
buyers, understand the thingsthat are most important to them
and then help them get that.
And so this different spin forwhat you're saying in terms of
always sort of selling is that'sactually, to me, has always
(17:26):
been a life lesson, right,what's my job as a spouse?
Well, it's to listen to myspouse to understand the things
that are most important to her,then help her get those things.
You know what's my job as acolleague?
You know my job is to listen tomy colleagues understand things
that are most important to themand then help them get that.
So, yeah, to the extent thatyou follow that path, as I
(17:49):
believe we do, sure you alwaysserve selling, but to me,
selling is really a form ofhelping.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, and it certainly should be, and I think
that's where the point that youmade earlier.
You know, sales organizationsare sometimes run like in the
same way that have been ran for50 years and you get into
helping buyers buy or I guessthat would be a way to say it
right Helping buyers buy versus50 years ago, where it was more
(18:23):
pushing your product.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, well, unfortunately it's still the way
it's practiced by most sellers.
It's still pushing the product,yeah, I mean it's.
And this, I think, is really acritical thing, and I think you
know we've been stuck in thislong.
This mindset for so long about,yeah, we're going to go
persuade somebody to buy ourproduct is that we really lose
track of the buyer and the wholething.
(18:46):
And it's the buyer.
Based on the study.
Everybody's seen the studies Ipresume most people have you
know from Gartner and otherssaying, I think Gartner's number
is, you know, 75% of B2B buyers, decision makers, don't want to
talk to salespeople.
And you know my take on that,which I like to say as well
(19:07):
that's completely wrong.
That's 100% of buyers don'twant to talk to salespeople.
But if you're a seller and youfind yourself talking to a buyer
, it's because they need to.
They didn't need to talk to you.
They wouldn't.
So you know what are you goingto?
If they need, what do they needfrom you?
(19:28):
Well, they need your help andit's and this is you know I
differ with other people.
They don't need your help tobuy something, they need your
help to make a decision, and Ithink those are sort of a little
bit different, right, and whatthe decision they're making is.
The decision they're making isare we going to make this change
in our business?
And that change is representedby buying this product or
(19:49):
service that we're looking at.
And if you can really focus onsaying, well, yeah, I'm going to
help the buyer make thisdecision to make a change, then
you're sort of taking it from adifferent perspective as well.
I've got this, you know, I'mgoing to talk to them, I'm going
to discover them, I'm going toqualify them, we're going to
demo them.
Yeah, blah, blah, blah.
It's like, well, okay, well, ifthe buyer is looking at making
(20:11):
a change, what's, what's sort ofthe pattern they're following?
Well the pattern they'refollowing is hmm, we need to
sort of define the opportunityof what we want to achieve by
making this change right, and sowe need to find the outcomes we
want to achieve.
We need to find sort of thechallenges, internal hurdles we
(20:33):
may have to make that change.
And then, once we've done that,then we'll go out in the market
and say, okay, how can we makethis change Right?
What are the products orservices available to help us
make this change?
And the last decision we makeis who are you going to make the
change with?
Well, most salespeople come inand start pitching their product
, right?
Well, the buyer is in this modeof saying look, I'm just trying
(20:55):
to define what it is we'regoing to do, and that's why
they're talking to you, becausethat's the help they need.
But we're so out of line withthat in the way that most sales
organizations are set theirprocesses.
You know, look at the stages inCRM system.
They don't align to this.
Hey, we're trying to find whatwe're going to do, then we're
going to talk about how we'regoing to do it and then third
thing we do is choose who to doit with.
(21:16):
So, challenge for us as sellers.
I said to maintain relevance iswe really have to align
ourselves exactly with what thebuyer is going through.
Right now it looks like there'stwo things that are going on
there's the seller's job andthen there's the buyer's job.
Well, it's really just one jobthat's happening.
(21:36):
That's the buyer trying to makea decision, and we said we need
to be much more closely alignedwith that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, I love that idea of the buyer being the hero
of the story, as opposed to theseller or the company being the
hero of the storyline.
It's kind of switching.
You know, if you're creating anarrative or a storyline, it's
the buyer.
That's like they're the onesthat are should be winning and
that the hero of this wholething, this whole journey.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Exactly.
Well, it's interesting we havethis whole sort of you know, the
ties crested a little bit, butyeah, and sort of 2018, 2019,
2021, all the emphasis onstorytelling right, especially
in certain, the pandemic is, youknow, we have tell stories,
which is true, but I think mostpeople missed the mark about
(22:26):
what story we're sociallytelling and I think Richie, you
had that as we're telling thebuyer story.
That's the only story they wantto hear.
They want to hear their story.
You know how they're going toprosper as a result of making
this change in their business.
And, yeah, sellers were just notvery good at sort of creating
(22:48):
what I wrote about selfstorytelling.
This vision of what successlooks like and this is something
actually happens has to happenvery early in the buyer's
process of making the decision,because then that becomes a
target at which all of yoursubsequent sales efforts and
efforts to help the buyer arefocused on.
(23:08):
Let's reach agreement on whatit is, what the success looks
like, and then, from that point,we have a much better focus
discussion about how we can helpyou.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
So I want to just ask a few questions about your
career.
We kind of start, we're goingto.
We've asked about thisfictitious last sale and now
we're going to jump to the otherend of the spectrum and talk
about first sale and some othernotable sales along the way that
we have that we're curiousabout.
But I have a feeling that we'regoing to.
(23:40):
You know, hear how some ofthese themes developed in your
career through some of thesenotable sales and, you know,
perhaps our listeners will havesome good takeaways from these
stories as well.
So, jumping into it, what's thefirst sale you ever remember
making?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, I remember.
So I was working for my firstJava college, working for a
company called Burroughs, andBurroughs at the time was the
second largest computer companyin the world behind IBM.
But as for antitrust againstIBM, at that point the next
seven companies combined werestill just a small fraction of
IBM's revenues, and so at thetime in the industry they called
(24:19):
it IBM and the seven dwarfs.
So we were dwarf number one.
And in order to earn our stripesto go to a training class to
learn how to sell computersystems, burroughs had this
legacy product line of addingmachines.
So at the time they were aboutthe size of a small microwave
(24:42):
oven and cost $250 in those days, which you know, equivalent of
1,000 plus these days.
But that was when handheldcalculators were just coming out
and they cost $50 bucks, $35bucks, and that's what we were
competing against.
But we had to sell $5,000 worthof calculators, desktop adding
(25:03):
machines, for they'd qualify tosend us to computer training
school.
So, as in at that time, livingin Oakland, california, in the
San Francisco Bay area and myterritory was the East Bay area
and I would drive to businessparks and, you know, 8.30 in the
morning, get kicked out of theoffice by the boss, we'd drive
(25:23):
down to business park, park thecar, computer under one or
calculator under one arm and aflip-chat portfolio under the
other and just go door to doorto door to door to door.
And I hated it.
But so I don't know, sometimeafter about a month doing it,
(25:44):
because soon after I got hired Igot sent away for two weeks to
initial sales training class andthen came back and go right
down to the territory.
So it was a Friday afternoon.
It was like well, thesituation's right.
I was completely frustrated anddemoralized and, yeah, you
(26:06):
convince yourself to make onemore call.
So I was actually in Fremont,california, in South Bay, and
there was a business calledBucks Welding and I'd sort of
the tail end of this strip mall.
I've been cold calling on, sofigure, it was probably
improbable, but went in and youwalk in this welding shop.
(26:30):
I'd never been in a weldingshop before and the thing was it
was like walking into a roomwith no light source at all
because the soot was covered allthe walls and it was just
completely dark in there and Ilooked like to serve one man
shop and I got my nicethree-piece dark, soot,
pinstripe white shirt and Buckwas there.
(26:54):
And Buck, I have no idea howwell Buck was, because he was
covered in soot from head tohead, and so the foot looked
like those old pictures of coalminers and I don't know he must
have just sensed that I neededsomething because it was like
business like this needs tospend $350 on a desktop adding
(27:16):
machine.
But he was so nice.
He said, well, show me what youhave Right.
And instead of just saying, getthe hell out of here, is that,
show me what you have.
So he cleared a space on top ofa workbench and I went through
my standard demonstration ofthis desktop adding machine and
he just moved me and he saidgreat, I'll take it, I was just
(27:39):
like what.
So I think my first sale wasmaybe somewhat of a pity sale
and I thank Buck if that was thecase.
But yeah, that was the firstone and made for the start of
this career.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
An amazing career.
It is Amazing career.
It still is.
Yeah, it helps us let's go fromthe first sale to the biggest
sale and kind of the process ofmaking the sale.
I'm kind of curious becauseyou're talking about satellite
communications, which soundslike it's really major.
(28:16):
It could be another deal in thecomputer systems.
What would you say your biggestsale would be?
Maybe the podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, and the biggest sale was certainly a computer
and satellite communicationsnetworks.
Yeah, and we got someinteresting ones.
I probably can't talk about allof them because but you know,
the last sort of real big onewas with a company that was in
the oil services business thatwanted to have a network where
(28:49):
they could transmit video imagesfrom the well heads that they
were drilling from around theworld to their geologists who
are centrally located in theUnited States, so they could
look at the composition of whatwas coming back up and make
decisions about drilling and soon.
That was big, and that was onewhere the size of the deal is so
(29:13):
large that our company size wasrelatively small at that point
that the potential revenue was amultiple of our own company
revenues.
So the the Then customers saidwell, you guys need to have a
bigger company service primecontractor on this.
So we are competing againstHughes aerospace use network
(29:35):
systems, which is huge, multibillion dollar company, and that
time I think our revenues areabout 50 million a year.
And so they they basicallymatched us with a large defense
contractor to be a primecontractor on the deal, and as
(29:58):
we start working through theprocess as a small company are.
Our thing was always how do we,how do we set the stakes of the
competition right?
Instead, of, how do we changethe buyer's paradigm for what
they think they're they want toaccomplish?
Because it's also like achallenger method, if you will,
right.
But how do we get them toreally shift?
(30:19):
Because we could do that, thenwe thought, okay, we have chance
to play on more level playingfield Versus always playing by
the big guys rules, because thenit becomes the price
competition.
So so we're able to.
We had some ideas for some newimplementation of satellite
communications technology tohelp them save bandwidth and
costs and and Is really criticalfor getting their buying pretty
(30:44):
early.
So they down selected into Ahandful of vendors.
They're talking to the two,which was us against this,
against Hughes.
And yeah, we're pretty surethat you had the inside track on
on winning, but you can neverbe sure.
(31:05):
So I've been taught early on bymy first boss is that, look,
you always, you always want tobe the third option, meaning
that if it boils down to you andsomeone else, the way you
increase your odds of winning isyou always have two options you
present to the buyer.
So then comes a choice betweenthem, you and you, and that's
(31:33):
what I did.
So I did is I went out andfound another Large prime
contractor, in this caseactually IBM, to also put in a
bid using, based on ourtechnology, and I think that's
what Enabled us really tosolidify the win was that when
the buyer looked at it wasn'tjust a choice between us versus
the other guy, was us versus theother guy, versus another
(31:56):
version of us.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
That was like different Like this.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Really critical lesson that sellers Really need
to take the heart is and I'vedone this throughout my entire
careers Is you never want tosingle thread.
Your offer Is.
Even if you're selling astandard product, you need to
find a way to Package up atleast two options, if not more,
for the buyer to consider foryour product or your service.
(32:22):
And I said that's why I alwayscall it the third option, and
you want to be that third optionand if you do that really
doesn't matter the size ofopportunity.
Working on it will increaseyour odds of winning the deal.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah, it's just, it's easy to it's, it requires a
little thought.
If you have just a standardproduct yeah, we saw a SAS
software product Well, but youneed to sit down with everyone
in the product and your salesmanager and the CEO and so on.
So, well, yeah, how do we?
What can we structure?
That's a little bit differentOption and a different
alternative for us.
(33:05):
And everybody talks about multithreading and we're talking to
all the multiple decision makers.
Sure, those People sellers havebeen doing that, yeah, since
the beginning of selling.
But this idea of saying, look,you're being more creative how
you present the options, becausethat really plays in the way
people make decisions.
You know there's been a fairamount of research into this and
(33:25):
and Generally, you know sort ofsequential decision making, as
you know, people identify aproblem, they identify options
for, yeah, that could be asolution for the solutions, and
they choose one.
And there was, after you'veever read the book Decisive by
the Heath Brothers, reallyinteresting book and and in
(33:46):
there they talk about researchthat had been done by this
Pioneer and corporate decisionmaking guy from Ohio State
University I think Not sure he'sstill alive, but formally Ohio
State named Paul Nut and hefound that when you know
companies go through his processof identifying, defining the
problem, creating options forthat they want to present to
(34:10):
management for approval.
Is that an overwhelming majority?
The case, I think, is likeninety seven percent of the case
, or something.
Is there only present twooptions to decision makers?
And yeah, you can then start tosee as well, gosh, what if you
present three options?
Right, that suddenly it starts,starts changing the game.
(34:35):
And so you know, this idea ofcreating multiple options I
think is really, really powerfuland sellers, you could do it,
whether it's delivery,implementation terms, you know
there's lots of things thatlevers you can pull to make that
happen.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
You change your odds, right?
I mean you want to start offwith 50 50 odds, you or the
other, or your competition, andthen, by bringing another
version of you to the table.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Now your odds are two thirds, you know, yeah well,
theoretically right and that's,but I think this is it's a
larger point you bring up whichis really important is that,
again, this is where I wastaught and the way I learned and
the way I've practiced itthroughout my careers.
We're in as sellers, we're inthe probabilities, business
(35:21):
Plain and simple right.
So part of our thought processaround every action we take with
a buyer should be is thisincreasing my odds of winning
the deal or not?
And if, what I'm going todeliver to you?
If the question I'm going toask, whatever, if it's not going
to do that, then why am I doingit?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Very good point.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And so, yeah, focus on probabilities.
Yeah, what's going to increasethe probabilities of me winning?
And it's yeah.
I remember reading aboutprofessional poker player I
forget who it was that theyinterviewed and he says well,
yeah, people think this is agame of chance, but it's a game
of skill, right?
There's a reason why the peopleare at the table at the World
(36:04):
Series of Poker or whatever,because it's not because the
cards have fallen their way,because at each move they make,
they're calculating theprobabilities of winning based
on the move.
And I think in sales, the verysimilar situation is, yeah, it
would be very intentional aboutevery step you take.
And again, one of the themes Iwrote about selling out and
(36:30):
being intentional that, hey,this is going to increase my
odds of winning.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So what's an example of a sale where maybe the odds
weren't in your favor Forwhatever reason, it was the
hardest, most stressful, likemade you kind of rethink, like
what's going on here?
What was the sale, that GrayHair, inducing All of these
(36:55):
types of thoughts and thingsthat come to mind?
Yeah, and what comes to mindthere?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Probably well, maybe a couple.
One is when I lost right andwhich was such a lesson learned.
At the time, this company wasselling radio stations, just
beginning to use radio networks,are just beginning to use
digital distribution orprogramming to affiliates and so
(37:25):
, coming as with we were aroundthe companies that was getting
that business and providing thatdigital distribution via
satellite.
And yeah, we're competing forthe distribution network for ABC
radio and it was pretty earlyin my career and but nonetheless
(37:51):
I should have known better byguess.
But the lesson learned is wethought we had it and you know,
we had validation to the pointthat from our stakeholders that
oh, yeah, this is the solutionwe're going to recommend, but it
(38:12):
was a big enough deal and wethis is part we missed or we
didn't get enough face time withthe CEO and yeah, I don't
believe that every product needsto be sold to the CEO, but this
is one that did and we did nothave enough exposure to them and
we're competing against theincumbent and they did and
(38:37):
despite everyone in the buyingcommittee telling us we had it,
we didn't get it and yeah, thatwas that was stressful, having
to explain to the board why wedidn't get it.
Yeah, it's just a misstep andso lesson learned right.
(38:59):
It just and it's.
I think the lesson is forsellers is that I think that
said before is we don't weoveremphasize in general in
sales that you need to get tothe C suite, because not every
product, you know, if you'reselling a copier to a big
company, it doesn't need to goto the C suite.
If you're selling, you know,paper clips, and in my first
(39:20):
book I lay out this little gridthat shows you how to sort of
figure out how high within theorganization you need to sell,
based on sort of the strategicnature of the product you know
as a product sort of tactical onone end of the spectrum versus
strategic and strategiccertified by cost and complexity
and risk.
So, yeah, yeah, that was.
(39:43):
That was painful, and mostlythe aftermath was painful
because, yeah, so I had to gofrom CEO on the board and
explain why we didn't haveforecast that quarter, because
we didn't get that deal.
You know there's another bigdeal is we're in a company that
was one that really enabled usto go public and so we're
(40:06):
selling to a large, you know,the largest wireless service
providers in Asia.
They want to have this networkcommunication, satellite
communications, sort of backbonecommunications, are expanding
cellular networks in Asia andsorry.
An interesting story in thatthey had originally asked us to
(40:27):
bid on it, but we were.
We looked at the RFP and saidlook, you know, we're way too
small to participate at thattime in the company, we didn't
have the resources, we couldn'thave.
Responded.
I stayed in touch with thedecision makers and after about
a year and a half almost twoyears they hadn't made a
decision.
So I contacted the guy again.
I said so what's happening?
(40:49):
You haven't made the decision.
He says oh, we haven't, youknow, found something that can
do what we want.
But we're getting serious aboutit again because we need to do
this from business endpoints.
So I said, well, hey, can wecome in and get a shot at that?
So, yeah, see an CEO and Ihopped on plane, went to Hong
Kong, sort of blew away withthis presentation about, because
(41:10):
we had put a lot of thought inthe intervening two years about
what we were going to do andwhat we could do.
But yeah, the stakes are prettyhigh because we knew this was
going to be the deal.
If we won was going to enablethe company to sort of take a
step up and sort of was drivingour plans to go public as a
company.
So our big stress was we again.
(41:33):
We knew we had the besttechnical solution, best
business solution, but the sizeof the competitor was such we
knew they could walk in any dayand drop their prices 20%, take
the business from us, and wecouldn't respond to it.
So, yeah, that was.
(41:53):
That was pretty stressful as wesort of got to the last month
or so and and before they said,ok, yeah, we're going to do a
contract with you as just livingliterally every day thinking
that the competitor would comein and just steal it from us.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Oh yeah, that's tough .
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Well, it spoke to the spoke to a couple things.
So what it spoke to us is thelevel of trust that we'd built
and credibility we'd built withthe customer, even though we're
smaller, even though we'reunproven and we certainly had
some hiccups in theimplementation, but they're
patient with us because thevision of what we created
together, of what they couldachieve, was not one the
(42:33):
competitor could match.
So, yeah, they may have beenable to buy it at some point,
ultimately less expensively, andI'm sure the competitor offered
the huge discounts, but theychose not to take it because
they had more trust that wecould deliver what they wanted,
and that is such a criticalthing that that people just
underestimate all the time.
It's, end of the day, it'sreally.
It's not not about your productIf you assume that having a
(42:56):
competitive product at acompetitive price is table
stakes the your ability to winthe deals based on the
connections you've made and theway you've differentiated
yourself at the human level andhelp, the way you help the buyer
make that decision.
Not not the product and theprice.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It is all about that.
They're all about making thosedecisions.
So there's stressful, misseddeal, stressful deal.
You ever get in slumps.
Sometimes you just get a bedand you're like you know what?
Can I still make the sales thatI need to make?
Do I still have the it factor?
(43:33):
I think we all go throughslumps.
And if you're feeling down orslumpy, I guess is there
something that you do to turnyour mind around and get out of
it.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I don't.
I'm not really conscious aboutbeing in slumps per se.
There are situations you findyourself in that are more
challenging than others, and soI think it's it's more for me a
case of, ok, trying to figureout well, what is the situation
I'm in and being reallypragmatic with yourself about
(44:11):
you know what's going on, thatthat's causing it, and it could
be oftentimes it's externalRight Is is.
I think people don't pay enoughattention to the impact of
things that are going on intheir life outside of work that
have an impact on their abilityto sell, because, again, we're
serving, that we're in thishuman business and you know,
(44:31):
performing perceptions of usbased on how we come across and
if your mind is is distracted bythings that are happening
outside of work, yeah, can havea canaveral impact on you and
you're like to be, I said,pragmatic and self self
actualized, but I may use thatterm to to degree that you can
take a step back and say this ishaving impact.
(44:53):
So, in my case, I went throughsome marriage issues and and
these marital issues, yeah,definitely had an impact and I
think over a period of six, ninemonths, I could start to see
that my performance was just notnot the level it needed to be
at and so, yeah, to me it's moreof those type of situations and
(45:18):
, hey, you know I lost my mojo.
Whatever, right it's, it's,yeah, it's more more the
external and I see it, andpeople I've managed and worked
with and so on is is, yeah, sure, they're frustrations and job
and those can build and they canplay a role, but I'd say, more
(45:40):
often than not, when somebody'sreally struggling is I always
start with what's happeningoutside of work?
Yeah, it looks like it lookedlast time.
Yeah, I mean sure it could be aboss.
I might one time work for aboss that was just intolerable
and had to get out of thesituation because the person was
literally insane.
But yeah, more often than notit's been other things.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It makes me think back to when I was playing
baseball.
You know, one of the bestmanagers I've played for was
Rick Renneria, who went on tomanage Cubs and then the White
Sox, and I'm mad at the city ofChicago for both of those teams
letting him go.
Just such an amazing guy, butyeah, he was.
He knew what was happening ineverybody's life outside the
(46:23):
field as well, and I feel likeit's probably for exactly what
you're talking about, because heknew that life is life.
You know, like people there'sthis saying of like oh, he's the
nicest guy off the field, buthe's an absolute monster on the
field.
It's like well, mikey over heredoesn't stop being Mikey when
he steps onto the baseball field.
Like that's also part of hislife and who he is.
(46:46):
You know what.
There's a lot of crossover inthat.
So, yeah, that resonates quitea bit Kind of a two-part
question here.
What is the sale that you are,regardless of the size of the
sale or how much money wasinvolved, what's the sale that
you're most proud of?
And is there a sale that comesto mind that you're least proud
(47:09):
of where you're like man, I wishI could have done some things
differently, or I'm not supersatisfied with how this went
down.
So is it the most proud of sale?
You're like man, I feel greatabout this.
And then there's this othersale that you wish you might
could do over again or dodifferently.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean the least proud are the
ones you lose, right, forreasons that were avoidable, as,
like I described, most proud,yeah, I think one of the things
that and you talked about salesthat maybe informed or reflected
(47:50):
my vision of selling and theimportance of certain things,
that of the human side of thingsis so company I was with we
were negotiating a deal to sellthe first real-time
satellite-deliveredentertainment system to
commercial airplanes, right?
(48:11):
So this was well before Wi-Fiand all these other things.
This was real-time radiodelivered to the seatback, and
so at the time there were noscreens.
This audio video was gonna comea few years after that, a
number of years after that.
But we were in this Fortune5,000, 500, actually Fortune 50
(48:33):
firm to who is sponsoring thisnetwork, and so, as back in
these coasts with the guy thatworked with me, we were
negotiating the final contract,and so I sat across the table
from the senior VP of thisFortune 50 company and some of
(48:54):
his people were staff membersand myself, and the first day we
made pretty good progress.
We had planned to be thereabout three days to finish the
contract, so at the end of thefirst day I got a call from
headquarters back on the WestCoast.
That's when the co-founders ofthe company, saying how are the
negotiations going?
(49:15):
Good, I think we're day awaymaybe from oh, great, great.
He says we've got a bit of aproblem.
So, oh, really, what would thatbe?
He said, well, we were justreviewing all the spreadsheets
that we had put together tocalculate the costs of doing the
(49:37):
project.
The project had two parts.
One is they were paying us todevelop the product and then
they were gonna buy a certainnumber of units.
And they said, yeah, there wassome stake on the spreadsheet
and we're gonna have to changeour prices.
And so this is sort of aproblem.
We were right, you know, in themidst of the contract
negotiations, we've pretty muchagreed on those.
He says yeah.
(49:59):
He says yeah, we're gonna haveto make change, otherwise we're
just gonna pull out of the deal.
I said, okay, well, you knowwhat are we talking about.
We're off by about half, I'mlike.
So what you're saying is thatwe have to double our prices.
(50:20):
He said yeah, yeah, otherwiseit's just, you know, we're not
gonna make any money.
And the CEO, I'm sorry putsfoot down.
And if we can't get at least acertain amount, which turned out
to be a little bit less thantwice, but still so I had it was
.
At the end of the day, I had togo back into this conference
(50:41):
room to this you know senior VPof this large enterprise and say
we've got a bit of a problem.
And it may not surprise youhere the person, just he
completely lost it.
I've never been yelled at likethat, accused of being you know
all the worst things in theworld, bait and switch, blah,
(51:02):
blah, blah.
This went on and on and on.
And then they had securityescort us from the business,
from the building.
Two days later we got the dealsigned at the price we needed
and you know, the lesson therewas that we had built up a
(51:24):
tremendous amount of trust,credibility, to the point where
we could sit down with them andexplain that the error was not.
You know we're not trying todeceive them.
It was not one of intention, itwas purely a bit of a mistake.
You know, apologized.
Yeah, we've made a couple otherconcessions relative to helping
me expedite the project and soon.
(51:46):
But you know, basically twodays later signed the deal for
almost double the price awayoriginally had been.
It was not fun, by a stretch ofimagination, but it showed the
power of the connections thatyou make with people, the
relationships and it's there'ssuch a sort of a sphere, almost
(52:07):
fear of using the wordrelationships in sales in the
last five, 10 years or so.
It's like, oh, it's not aboutrelationships, buyers don't want
to be friends, and it's like,well, sure, that's trust me,
these people weren't my friends.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But we had this trust-based relationship that
existed.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
You know we had the credibility.
We, you know we were completely.
I thought we'd beingtransparent, up to it, but we
became even more transparentafterwards.
We had to be to show them.
You know where the air happenedand why, and you know at a
level of detail that theyunderstood that this was not,
you know, a bait and switch.
But absent those relationships,absent having invested in
(52:51):
building those, we would havebeen done.
You know, the deal have beendone and just off the table
altogether, and we weren'tcompeting at the same time, we
were the only one that reallyhad the capabilities of doing
this at that point in time.
So it was strategic both for usas a company as well as for,
you know, the customer.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
It's one of the themes in your lessons learned.
It's after your story is.
It's all about thoserelationships.
It's all about the trust andcredibility that you can provide
.
Yeah right, yeah well, did you?
Speaker 3 (53:27):
build and it's, it's, it's, it's a process, but you
have to do it intentionallybecause you know that it's
important and I think that'spart of what I really learned in
my career that a lot of sellersdon't have the value or the
benefit of is.
You know, when you're alwaysworking for Small companies who
are selling big things, right, Imean, there's a lot of startups
(53:49):
out there, especially in thesass world.
They're selling there, yeah,the software it's, yeah,
relative, the value of sass, thesass models, right, it's not a
big purchase up front.
You can grow into it, you canstart really small, a lot of
value on that, but the sellersdon't learn how to sell big.
And when you do that you beginto understand, yeah, that trust
(54:12):
really is important.
You have somebody signing upfor, you know, 10k a month for
you know, a subscription to asass product.
The risk profile is pretty low,right for the decision maker
Not that it's completely absent,because I can't always make bad
decisions, but when it's, yeah,millions and millions of
dollars, when it's strategicinitiative for the company,
(54:34):
because you know they're gettinginto a new business which often
times sets up companies usedour products is getting to the,
you know, new businesses toexpand their revenue, market
share or whatever.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
It becomes very different.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
And again, another company we were talking to, you
know, one of the largestcompanies world.
That time they want us to builda product for one of their
divisions and Been working thedeal for about a year and and it
got to point where it's time tobring CEO of my company to meet
(55:07):
the CEO of this division ofthis.
I said, one of the 10 largestcompanies world at that point
and you know, bring them in,that we're a great meeting.
I think it was really positiveas, walking out, my CEO turns to
me and said no way we'regetting that deal.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
I said what do you mean it?
Speaker 3 (55:28):
says, well, they're gonna pay us to develop this
product and they have on payrollMore engineers than we have in
an entire.
Then we have employees in ourcompany, people they're paying
week after week to developproducts like this.
There's no way they're gonnagive us, as I said no, you're
(55:49):
missing the point.
They are gonna give it to usbecause they trust us more than
they trust the people internallyto deliver the product they
need.
And, yeah, we got the deal.
Yeah, we didn't have a paper.
We did our product was purelyon paper and but that's, you
(56:12):
know, that's what we did as acompany.
It wasn't just me, it was, youknow, everybody that you know
interacted with the.
The customer was part ofbuilding that trust and that
credibility and we were verydeliberate about establishing
multiple touch points across ourorganization, across into there
the customer's organization.
But that was, that was it.
It was the relationships, theconnections.
(56:34):
You know, if you don't like theidea of relationships and say
the connections we built, theywere trust based, connection,
credibility based.
And yeah, I, every time I readand Haven't seen as much the
last year or two, but a coupleyears ago, like in the early
days of pandemic, it was themloud voices served downplaying
this idea of relationships andso on, and they were just yeah,
(56:57):
I was vocal and just sayingthese people are just flat out
wrong.
You know, as we're in abusiness of a human business, as
long as you're a human talkingto a human, this is going to be
important.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah, yeah, couldn't agree more.
You know, the human element ofthings is never going to go away
.
So last, last question here,and I'm kind of wrapping two
questions in the one again, butyeah, I think, yeah, I don't
think it's going to go away.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
But I think, as I mentioned before, I think that,
yeah, just the number ofproducts that require human
sellers to work with humanbuyers Is, you know, it's
continuing to shrink.
I mean, it's still a vastnumber of products, but it's,
it's inevitable that you know,we grow more and more
comfortable through the use oftechnology and AI Certainly help
(57:49):
.
This is buying things ofgreater complexity and cost
without human intervention andthat trend's going to continue,
but it's, it's.
I said, the number of productsthat still require the human is
still very, very large.
We're not going to see, youknow, there's, I don't.
If you remember, back in oh,2014, 2015, forrester put out a
(58:14):
report saying Some largefraction of B2B sellers would be
gone by the year 2020 andsuddenly we saw a net growth and
and B2B sales employment overthat period of time.
So Humans aren't going away yet.
But yeah, they're not goingaway yet.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Uh, ai is going to probably going to help humans
Sell good, right, if you'regoing to be able to sell.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
Good right If you're going to be correctly.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, good, but you know I think, um, buying is
always an emotional decision andyou know there's logic involved
.
But it's emotion based in a lotof ways and you need you need
help in making that decision anda good salesperson as the
person who's going to be helpingin that decision.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
Yeah, and people just need to.
Sellers need to keep in mind Ifthe buyer is talking to you,
it's not because they want to,it's because they need to.
So you need to understand whathelp they need from you.
That's motivating them to wantto talk to you.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Well, Andy, it's.
It's been a pleasure talking toyou here on the last cell um
our new podcast and and reallyappreciate you coming on and
sharing your sell stories withus.
Speaker 3 (59:34):
Oh well, kevin, thanks for having me and and
yeah, congratulations on yourpodcast.
Excited to see how it turns outfor you and and yeah, you guys
did a great job.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Thank you and for our listeners, where can they find
your new podcast?
Speaker 3 (59:49):
Wherever you listen to podcasts, so it's the win
rate podcast and, um, yeah, 2024we're gonna be making some,
yeah, exciting additions to itand, uh, going to multiple
episodes per week.
So they are very excited.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Perfect.
Thank you once again, thank you.
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