May 2, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever grappled with that nagging feeling of not being good enough, even when you're knocking it out of the park? Unpack the intricacies of imposter syndrome with the wisdom of sales coach Amber Deigert. Amber joins us to turn the tide on self-doubt, teaching us to channel those feelings into a force for growth.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to episode five of the Last Cell.
We talk about Cell's journeys,cell's stories, and we learn
through the experiences ofothers, and I'm Kevin Hill, I'm
your co-host for this podcast,along here with Richie Daigle.
How are you doing today, richie?
Yeah, doing well yeah thanksfor that good intro.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I feel like I forgot saying our names in the last
intro.
I forgot like, yeah, it wasvery well done.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I feel like I need to take from you there, kevin we
start talking and then we getunfocused, and then microphones
don't work and a plethora ofthings just go wrong, and we
just record an intro and weforget the fundamentals.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, I think that's a good segue into this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Even though we didn't plan it right, it worked.
This is a little bit of adetour from the normal sales
stories, but I think it's animportant episode for people to
listen to anyways.
Our guest on this episode isAmber Diver.
If you're familiar with Amber,she's a sales coach and she
(01:14):
works with people who are goingthrough the experience of
imposter syndrome.
That is her niche, if you will.
That's her area of expertisehelping people understand it.
What is it?
What does it mean?
Not be scared of it, all ofthese sorts of things.
She has a lot of cool coaching.
(01:35):
She's got a lot of greatprograms where you can learn
more about it.
But this was a cool conversationjust to kind of dive into that
topic.
This was a cool conversationjust to kind of dive into that
topic, going through kind of thelens of storytelling and and
and you know how that dynamiccan play out in the sales arena.
Um, so, yeah, I thought thatwas a really fun conversation.
(01:55):
Uh, really interesting, alwaysfun talking with her.
And yeah, what were yourtakeaways?
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I enjoyed it a lot because I always think about
imposter syndrome and I thinkone of the key takeaways is you
know, certainly don't be scaredof it, but embrace it, because
that's how you grow.
If you don't think, if youdon't have imposter syndrome,
then you're learning new things.
If you're out there just ingrowth mode, you are going to
(02:28):
feel imposter syndrome.
It's normal and you should becomfortable with it, not even
scared of it, embrace it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I agree, and I think awareness is what was my big
this is kind of a word that Ikeep coming back to in a lot of
different realms right now butbeing aware of when you're
having the experience ofimposter syndrome, Also be aware
when you may be having theexperience of Dunning-Kruger
syndrome, which is the opposite.
You know, sometimes I feel likea bit like a pendulum swinging
(03:00):
between the two, but I thinkit's good to know where you're
at, you know, and to always becurious in both scenarios and be
gentle, you know, kind toyourself, not too hard.
I mean, as salespeople weexpect perfection and all these
things, but just being aware ofwhat's happening and what you're
(03:22):
experiencing can be quiteliberating in itself.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It can.
Things don't always work out.
Everyone makes mistakes.
But embracing those failures,embracing that learning from it
and just really beingcomfortable in your own skin and
that makes imposter syndrome.
What did you say bearable?
(03:47):
It's certainly not unbearable,but it kind of makes it fun too.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Well, it's kind of you know I think she uses this
in this episode as well but it'slike embracing the sore muscles
.
Yes, you know, the day afteryou were lifting in the gym and
trying out a whole bunch of newexercises, you know I you're
going to be sore, I can't walk.
I don't like this, I can't like.
Everything hurts.
I don't like like get me out ofhere.
(04:15):
Like give me all the proteinshakes.
How quickly can I get throughthis period?
But that is the sign that youare growing and getting stronger
and working out new musclegroups, et cetera.
So super cool conversation.
I hope you all enjoy it.
Be sure to like subscribe.
Check out Amber and her work.
Go check out GoPayHawk as well,our sponsors.
(04:38):
Go give them some love for allyour payment needs and, yeah,
get into it, enjoy.
I have to ask, amber, did youwatch the, the?
Speaker 4 (04:49):
super bowl did you have?
I did, guys.
I lived in san francisco for 10years and so I was cheering for
the niners and, I gotta behonest, I was watching at the
beginning and then I got soanxious I just I cannot like
help but feel the emotions ofother people and I was like I
can't do this anymore.
So then I just read a bookuntil the commercials came on,
(05:09):
and then watched all thecommercials, of course the
halftime show as well, and thenit was a sad defeat.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It was.
I just did an episode with ToddLeitz and he's both a Bills fan
.
His family is from Buffalo, buthe grew up in the Bay Area or
Northern California, so he's aBills and 49ers fan.
And he was not feeling verygood about it.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, it was a bummer .
It's so funny.
I have a daughter, she's four,and usually when my husband's
watching football she justcheers for whichever team has
the color of outfit that shelikes better.
But this time they're in thesame color.
But she did like the gold pantsbest, so that was the Niners.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Nice we have to break this up a little bit, Kevin.
I feel like we have this themeof 49ers fans coming on.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, taking over the world.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I hear you spend a lot of time in Chattanooga.
What's your favorite?
Spot.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Oh, I used to I used to work for a company.
So I was living in SanFrancisco and they had an office
in Walnut Creek, which is inthe Bay Area, but then their
headquarters was in Chattanoogaand I, honestly, I was like I
maybe have heard a song aboutChattanooga, but I have no idea
where that is.
And so I would come toChattanooga about once a month
(06:24):
from San Francisco and I have tosay the direct flights were not
so good.
So my jam was to fly intoNashville and then drive over to
Chattanooga, because I keptgetting stuck in the Chattanooga
airport.
Like I don't know there were somany delays or whatever.
I was like I'd rather just haveone flight and not have
connections.
But yeah, I was shocked, to behonest with you.
I mean I didn't know what toexpect.
(06:46):
But when I got there I was likewhat is going on here?
Like all the rock climbing, allthe paddle boarding, the
downtown is so cool.
We went for a like a run as ateam and like ran up like one of
the hills and had like this bigview of everything, like it is
a rad little spot and the foodwas amazing, like all the little
restaurants we went to downtown.
(07:07):
I was really shocked I was, Ihave to say.
I was really skeptical and Iwas blown away.
Once I got to chattanooga I waslike this is great, I love it
here I think our next sponsor,kevin, should be the city of
chattanooga.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
now just to see if they should.
Yeah, so thinking of spaces andcool places, where is your
absolute favorite vacation spot?
You have one more vacation leftever.
Yeah, where is Amber going?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
So whenever people like, if I'm doing a meditation
or something, they're like go toyour favorite place on the
planet, it's always this littlebeach I think it's called Secret
Beach.
It's on Kauai.
You have to like hike down.
It's hard to get to and there'slike a bunch of sea turtles
swimming over there.
There's like no, hardly anybody, because you have to hike down
into it.
(08:00):
There's trees in the back of it, but it's like right up against
all these cliffs.
The sand is super soft and thatis the spot.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I always like imagine myself in a hammock at that
spot, listening to the waves.
It's the best place ever.
I love hawaii.
And and follow-up question umfavorite beverage, alcoholic or
non-alcoholic, one beverage tohave with you at this beach,
what do?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
you have.
Can it be slightly frozen?
Can I choose a shave ice,hawaiian shave ice yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So, yeah, I have to tell you this.
But fast forward in the futureand you are on this beach and
there's hawaiian shaved ice.
Everywhere.
There's a little table next tome.
There's some there.
There's actually some that arecoming up in the waves like out
of the ocean Shaved ice.
There's people walking aroundwith it randomly, but you notice
(08:55):
that you're on this beach andyou're older.
Now You're done working and itoccurs to you that you are
completely retired and you'llnever work again.
What was the last thing yousold, or bonus again?
What was the last thing yousold, or bonus?
What?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
was the last project you worked on, one of the two.
What was the last thing you didlast?
I mean, if I'm fully retired,the last thing I sold was my
business and I think I'm fullyretired in like 45 is the goal,
not super old, but it'sinteresting because I always
think about that and I'm like,okay, let's say that I was
(09:31):
retired, what would I want towork on?
And I'm like I don't want to dothe exact same thing I'm doing
every day right now.
Like I kind of have a dream setup and it's so enjoyable and so
interesting.
Yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting because you asked
like what's the last projectthat I worked on?
There's something that's sorewarding to me about being able
to share my ideas and mythoughts on linkedin and with my
(09:55):
newsletter.
It's such an amazing.
I recently got this book.
It's the rick rubin book.
It's called the creative actand he said something in here
about how, um, I don't thinkit's just creatives, but he says
like the creative act is not um, it's not like an abnormal
(10:15):
thing, it's.
He equates it to like it's likea hummingbird flying.
It's like something that youhave to do.
And I don't know if thisapplies to everybody.
But when I heard that, I waslike yes, that's it.
Like there's always going to bea part of me that needs to
create and needs to share myideas and like share my thoughts
and, whether people want tolisten or not, like it's so
(10:38):
rewarding to be able to sharethose things and have people
respond and be like, oh my gosh,I didn't realize I was not the
only one who felt this way, orlike it's so amazing to hear
somebody else who has a similarstory.
Or I never thought ofconsidered it in that direction.
So I think the last, theproject I'm always going to be
working on, is some kind ofcreative like whether it's
sharing my thoughts to myselfand figuring out what's going on
(10:59):
in that crazy brain, or it'ssharing my thoughts with other
people and helping them see anew side that maybe they hadn't
seen before.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Kind of always reminds me um the, the, the
quote from Willie Nelson ofwhenever people told him he
should retire and he says, all Ido is play music with my
friends and golf.
Which one should I?
give up, right?
It's just that the creativepart of you is just natural and
(11:27):
you should never.
You can't retire from it.
You can't retire from thecreativity and and the, the joy
or whatever feeling that you getout of, out of helping people,
the serving other people,creating things.
So that's one of those thingsthat is untethered from money
(11:47):
really.
You know, probably your mostsatisfying sell or coaching,
engagement or project didn'thave dollars attached to it
whatsoever.
It was for the fulfillment ofthat and the dollars came in
later.
And it maybe opened the door forthat and the dollars came in
later, but it may have openedthe door for for for success.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Mm.
Hmm, I read something recentlyabout satisfaction that kind of
blew my mind.
It's in the book Build a BetterLife by Oprah and Arthur Brooks
, and he talks about how there'slike micro.
It's a book about happiness andhe talks about how there's like
micro.
It's a book about happiness andhe talks about how there's like
micro nutrients that are neededto create happiness.
One is enjoyment, one issatisfaction, and I forgot the
(12:30):
third one.
It may be come to me, but whathe said about satisfaction was
satisfaction only happens whenyou work hard at something and
then see the result come tofruition and creativity.
Like it's not an enjoyableprocess necessarily.
Like you do something arduous,like I think of like prospecting
.
The same way, like prospectingis not fun, but then when you
(12:52):
see that you hit your number oflike how many new deals you
wanted, like that's fun, that'sso satisfying.
And I think of creativity kindof in a similar way, or like
exactly what you were talkingabout.
Like any one of these things oflike signing a new deal or like
getting a new client orwhatever it is like it's the,
(13:13):
it's the satisfaction of like Iworked for this, it wasn't easy
what I did, and now I get tolike enjoy the reward of my
efforts yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I feel like that theme comes up with a lot of
creatives, whether it's authors,uh, musicians that they are
doing the thing because theyfeel compelled to do the thing,
and they're going to do it nomatter what.
It doesn't matter if someone'slistening or reading, they just
have to get it out of them.
They have to go through theprocess of creating, and that
process is every bit asimportant as the final product,
(13:44):
something that would desire, youknow.
You think about all thesepeople that are so driven to to
achieve whatever it is thatthey're going after.
And the most obvious, you know,example of this is think about
the scientists that weredeveloping, like nuclear energy,
and they probably figured outat some point that, oh yeah,
this is going to kill me, likeI'm going to die because I'm,
(14:07):
you know, going through.
I figured out I'm a scientist,I figured out, like, how
radioactivity works.
Now I'm putting myself intothat because I kind of see this
greater cause, or this greaterpossibility.
That desire can be destructiveat times, but it can also be
harnessed and it can produce alot of cool things.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Yeah, the last thing was purpose, by the way
Enjoyment, satisfaction andpurpose Having some kind of
meaning behind why you're doingwhat you're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes, and we see a lot of people with their sales
business or literature, nuclearenergy, but they have a.
They want the purpose, theywant the creativity, but
something holds them back andit's something that I know you
talk about a lot and that isimposter syndrome.
(14:57):
Yeah, and I post out a lot ofresearch on LinkedIn, share a
lot of content, lot of researchon LinkedIn, share a lot of
content.
I've been doing it for yearsnow and every time I, before I
hit that post button, I get thistwinge of imposter syndrome
myself.
It just never goes away.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah.
So let me tell you kind of mydefinition of imposter syndrome.
Imposter syndrome has threedifferent flavors and you may
have like one of these flavors,you may have all three, most
people have all three, butimposter syndrome is number one.
You feel like a fraud.
You feel like you're makingthis up, you don't know what
you're doing and people aregoing to find out, which is the
scariest part.
The second flavor of it is youfeel like you just got lucky.
(15:42):
You were in the right place atthe right time.
Like you just got lucky.
The people who put you in thisposition were temporarily
incompetent and didn't know whatthey were doing to give you
this option, which, by the way,usually is combined with like
I'm surrounded by people who aresuper smart and I don't belong
here.
I'm like, how can they be supersmart and also incompetent
enough to put you here?
(16:02):
Like, let's just ask ourselvesthat.
Like, how can they be supersmart and also incompetent
enough to put you here?
Let's just ask ourselves that.
And then the last flavor of itis downplaying your achievements
, saying anybody could have donethis, it wasn't that big of a
deal.
My favorite example of this isa PhD in rocket science.
It was like, oh, it's not thatbig of a deal, anybody could
have done what I did.
Like no, actually they couldn'thave.
But you see these three thingsgoing on with all of us.
(16:24):
And what imposter syndrome isnot which I think sometimes it
gets lumped in here is there arepeople who have and I would
include myself in this group.
Sometimes there are people whohave this grinding, lingering
feeling of not being good enoughor not being qualified enough,
or not ever, I don't know.
(16:45):
It's kind of like this, thispiece, this aspect that
infiltrates multiple areas ofyour life, not just your
professional life, but maybeyour parenting, maybe your
friendships, maybe you're likeromantic partnerships, and that
usually is not kind of, I think,of imposter syndrome more as
like a what's it called?
Like a temporary thing, notlike a lifelong thing.
(17:07):
So if you do start to feelthose like just that, really
like that weight that you'recarrying around of, like I'm
never going to be good enough,this is never going to be good
enough, then like, I definitelyrecommend therapy and that's
what helps me quite a bit.
But imposter syndrome is moreof like a temporary, it's not
like a disease, it's like abroken leg, if that makes sense.
I'm trying to think of what theword is, but like something
(17:27):
that happens and can be resolvedpretty quickly well, like a
temporary bout of anxiety.
Yeah, that will go away right,yes, so, and it's really
interesting too, of why you haveimposter syndrome.
Um, it's interesting becausewhen you are experiencing
imposter syndrome, we all thinklike I'm the only one who feels
(17:49):
this way.
There's no way that mycolleagues also feel this way,
like why is it just me?
And in fact, imposter syndrome,they estimate, affects probably
70% of the population, but Iwould guess it's like 100% of
the population and impostersyndrome actually increases the
higher up in rank you go in anorganization.
So the CEO is most likely tofeel imposter syndrome, whereas,
(18:13):
like, the new college grad isleast likely to feel it, and
there's also usually somethingthat happens in here of feeling
like the odd one out.
You're more likely to feelimposter syndrome if you feel
like you're different from allyour colleagues.
Maybe you have a differentbackground.
So many sellers come to me andthey're like well, I didn't come
(18:33):
from a traditional salesbackground and I still, like you
can fight me on this, but I'mlike there's no such thing as a
traditional sales background,like that's not.
There's no sales degree.
Like what?
What is the sales backgroundLike?
Please tell me.
Like what is the salesbackground like?
Please tell me.
Like what is the traditionalsales background, however, you
got into sales.
What's the right way to getinto sales?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
it's the mythology that people who haven't had
years of position in sales or asa salesperson makes up that
this is the quintessential salesbackground.
Yes, it doesn't exist, it'sjust myth, right?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
So?
Like, well, I don't qualify,I'm a fraud because I don't have
the right experience, or maybeI look different than everybody
in my organization or I'moriented different or have a
different race or a differentgender or different orientation
Like something about me.
My experience is different.
So, to tell a personal story, Iexperienced massive, massive
(19:30):
imposter syndrome, which is whyI care so much about this.
My story is that I grew up inpoverty.
I grew up in a blue-collar town.
I was one of six kids.
I was homeschooled.
I didn't graduate high schooland then fast forward.
I was working and living in SanFrancisco downtown at a tech
startup.
It achieved unicorn status andI was managing a team and making
(19:53):
six figures for the first timeand I was like I can't let
anybody know that I'm notsupposed to be here, right, like
?
Can you guys feel that, likethey're going to find out I'm
not supposed to be here.
They're going to find out thatI'm poor, that I'm uneducated,
like I have a college degree,but like they're going to find
out I'm not supposed to be here?
They're going to find out thatI'm poor, that I'm uneducated,
like I have a college degree,but like they're going to find
out that I'm not supposed to behere.
I'm surrounded by people whohave Ivy League degrees and are
(20:15):
super, super smart, and theimposter syndrome was so massive
.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, unlike the textbook example.
Go ahead, richie, sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, I feel like it comes in waves.
Right, I feel like, like yousaid, people experience it at
different times and you saidthat close to everybody
experiences it and that it Ifeel like it comes in waves.
Maybe, hopefully, you agreewith this, but there's certain
types, certain moments in acareer or in a path where you're
(20:46):
more likely to get hit by awave of imposter syndrome, and
you would probably know whatsome of those key moments are.
Yeah.
So yeah, and I will say beforewe jump into having you kind of
walk through some of that,typically we ask in this podcast
you know what was your firstsale and your biggest sale and
your most emotional sale?
(21:07):
But I think we can pivot inthis moment because this is
tangential to those salesstories.
but it's also very important tokind of tell stories around
imposter syndrome and storiesthat you know of course don't
give away anything sensitive,but stories that either you've
experienced or in coaching orpersonally, that may resonate
whether it's the biggest case ofimposter syndrome you've
(21:27):
experienced, or in coaching orpersonally, that may resonate
whether it's the biggest case ofimposter syndrome you've ever
come across or maybe a specificscenario that was quite
emotional, but I think thatmight be interesting to explore
here.
So, just so our listenersunderstand, we're going to pivot
just a little bit thestorytelling from the normal
(21:48):
range of questions here toreally focus on imposter
syndrome today.
But yeah, maybe you could jumpinto kind of some of those key
moments in a career where you'remost likely to see imposter
syndrome come up.
And then second question whatwas the kind of the biggest case
of imposter syndrome thatyou've come across, either in
(22:08):
personally or in your coaching?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
So imposter syndrome and here's like, if you hear
nothing else from this episode,here's what I want you to hear
Imposter syndrome only happenswhen you're in a growth phase.
Imposter syndrome the oppositeof imposter syndrome is
complacency.
I have talked to some peoplenot clients, but like peers and
friends, like I remember talkingto like another mom that I'd
(22:35):
met.
Our kids were in the same classand I was talking to her about
her imposter syndrome and herhusband was like I never have
imposter syndrome.
I just don't.
I never have it.
And I was like how long have youbeen in your job?
He's like seven years.
And I was like when's the lasttime you got promoted?
Seven years ago?
He's like it's just the sameall the time.
When you're complacent and thatno judgment, right, like some
(22:56):
people like this is what they gofor.
When you're complacent in yourcareer, you never feel imposter
syndrome because you're notgrowing, you're not trying to
learn new skills, you alreadyknow how to do everything.
Imposter syndrome only happenswhen you've got your next
promotion, your next big project, you started at a new company,
you are up leveling your skills.
It only can happen if you're asuccess.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
That makes perfect sense.
Only in growth can you feellike an imposter because you're
trying something new.
And if you're not tryingsomething new, then you're not
getting anywhere Right.
Not trying something new, thenyou're not getting anywhere
right.
So, and whenever you said theexecutives, you know I've been
hearing I'm part of founderscommunity now in logistics and
(23:40):
everyone in there, from thepeople who are just starting out
to the people who have beenrunning startups for five, six,
seven years, every day.
It's a joke because we're alljust making up as we go and
that's part of feeling thatimposter syndrome.
Because you haven't been herebefore.
(24:01):
I've never been a CEO of a $1million company.
I've never been one of a1,100,000.
So each day it's just you'regrowing and you're kind of
feeling and it's kind of awkwardbut it's addicting too.
That's how I like to live life.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Absolutely.
What I think about is thepeople who come to me and they
say, like well, I've feltimposter syndrome my entire
career.
It's been this consistent thing.
You can tell me nothing elseabout yourself and I know that
your career trajectory has beenhockey stick growth and they're
like oh yeah, you're right, Idid get promoted a lot, like
you're just constantly puttingyourself in new growth positions
(24:43):
.
But I want you to notice thatthe imposter syndrome is
temporary.
You may have had continualimposter syndrome, but it's
temporary in that you might feellike an imposter the first time
you do cold calling and thenyou do it for a few years and
you no longer feel like animposter.
And then you feel like animposter with the first time you
do demos and you feel awful andthen, like, pretty soon, you
(25:06):
get good at it.
You don't even have to practiceanymore.
You like know exactly what tosay.
So I want you to notice thatthe imposter syndrome is
temporary in that it'sinevitable that it's going to go
away as soon as you learn thatskill.
All you have to do is keepgoing through the repetitions
(25:31):
and pretty soon you won't feellike an imposter anymore.
But where?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
we go wrong is a lot of us feel that imposter
syndrome and we make it meanthat we're not cut out for it
and we stop.
Yeah, it's something that youknow.
I'm fascinated to the degreethat you're fascinated with
imposters, imposter syndrome.
I'm fascinated with underdogsand the underdog mindset and how
an underdog functions.
And there's a lot ofcommonality because when you're
an underdog, your back's againstthe wall and you're looking at
(25:53):
a quote, unquote, impossiblefeat.
You're going to go up againstsome opponent that everybody you
know, that everybody is isconvinced is going to crush you
or, like you're, you're heavilyoutmatched.
But there's a freedom in thatand that you can take all of the
stress that comes along withhigh expectations for success
(26:15):
and say I don't have that, I'mfree from that, I can, I can
compete and engage from aposition of what if let's see
what happens, let's give it ashot.
What if let's see what happens,let's give it a shot.
Um, and I think there's a lotof power in that and you get.
You see, all these greatunderdog stories where people
overperform, like the, thehockey team back in the 80s that
(26:37):
that beat the russians, andlike that's a great example.
But there's all these differentexamples of incredible underdog
stories throughout the years.
But it was people or teams orindividuals that um had this
kind of level of impostersyndrome but used it as a
superpower.
They like leaned into it.
You know, um.
Yeah, I don't know if you haveany comments on on underdogs and
(26:59):
imposter syndrome or theoverlap there, but curious um,
my, whenever I hear underdogs, Ialways think of malcolm
gladwell.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
He was on a podcast episode I listened to like
decades ago maybe, and he talkedabout how he never roots for
the underdog.
He's like you have to be amasochist to root for the
underdog because the likelihoodis that they're not going to win
.
Why would you root for theunderdog anyway?
That's what I thought of, butnot really helpful, but kind of
funny.
I was like such a good point,why don't we root for the winner
?
We're going to be more likelyto win if we were anyway true,
(27:30):
but what's?
fun in that right exactly.
It's so satisfying to see theunderdog win.
Yeah, there's no drama.
There's nothing in it, yeah um,except cold hard facts right,
yeah, um, I keep thinking ofthis example of a client of mine
who had imposter syndrome andwhat's super fascinating.
(27:50):
So, again, I have so manypeople who come and set up calls
with me and they're like I gotto let you in on the secret.
Like, sometimes I feel like animposter and they feel so
embarrassed about it and thinklike they're the only ones and I
just want to be like, if youonly knew how many people like I
would argue that all yourcolleagues have felt the exact
same way as you.
So this particular personalready was the top seller at
(28:15):
their software company.
Like they had the number oneranking.
They went to President's Club,they already were the top.
And so I'm sure that all theother people in the organization
were like well, obviously thatperson doesn't have this problem
, right.
All the other people in theorganization were like well,
obviously that person doesn'thave this problem, right.
But this person came to me andwas like I get in these meetings
with Fortune 50 CEOs and Ipersonally don't have a college
(28:37):
degree and I'm sitting acrossthe table from people who are
McKinsey Harvard graduates withtheir MBA, and who am I to be
telling them how they should runtheir business.
And so this person felt likethey would get really befuddled
with their MBA.
And who am I to be telling themhow they should run their
business?
And so this person felt likethey would get really befuddled
with their communication.
They would talk too fast, theywould get like all confused and
(28:58):
they felt like they justcouldn't handle it.
And not that they couldn'thandle it, but they were like I
maybe need communicationtraining because I just talk too
fast, because I'm so nervous.
And when we helped identify theimposter syndrome and helped
reframe it of like this is justa growth phase, you would not be
feeling this unless you're amassive success which we know
that you are and reframe the wayyou're thinking about it.
(29:18):
And I think of it as like Idon't ever try to solve imposter
syndrome.
I don't ever try to vanquishimposter syndrome.
I try to just notice it.
And I am a high achiever andsomebody who has real big
aspirations and wants to begrowing.
And so now when I notice it, Itell myself like, oh, I'm in my
(29:41):
sweet spot.
This is exactly where I want tobe, where, if you talk to me,
what would that be 15 years ago,when I was working for the
startup 10 years ago.
If you talk to me then I wouldhave told you like there's
something broken in my DNA.
I see all these other people.
They seem to be way moreconfident than me.
I guess I'm just not aconfident person and I'll never
(30:02):
be confident.
And instead now I see that sameimposter syndrome as just like
oh, I'm in my sweet spot, I justhave to keep going and it's
inevitable that it's going to goaway.
So, yeah, what we're saying isnormal and healthy yeah Let me
tell you that seller ended upclosing two massive deals.
He made seven figures as aseller that year and then did it
(30:25):
another couple years.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Once he resolved those mindset problems when you
said that, the communication, hegot befuddled and and uh or she
um in in boardrooms withfortune 50s.
It reminds me we were atfreight waves and I was on live
tv, you know, or for htv.
A lot of times I had noexperience I didn't know what I
was doing, I'd come off the showand I'm like man, that was such
(30:50):
a disaster.
I don't even know what I wastalking about.
Then I'd re-watch it Not sayingit was good, but it was just
like oh, no one out there couldperceive what was going on in my
head, because it didn't showand it just kind of went smooth,
it wasn't a disaster.
It just went as smooth as Icould do it, um, but we can, or
(31:11):
you know, we get in our ownheads oftentimes and what we
perceive is much more dramaticand and overboard than what
everyone else perceives.
Totally.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It reminds me of the time I was playing baseball.
I got called up out of rookieball or extended short season to
high A, so I was skipping twolevels and Johnny Gomes, his
brother Joey, his locker wasnext to mine.
Joey had been in triple Aforever.
He's like where are you going?
I was like California.
He says, oh, are you nervous?
I'm like, yeah, I am, I'mskipping two levels, I'm nervous
(31:50):
.
He's like well, all the hittersin the California League,
they're terrible because ifthey're any good they'd be in AA
.
When you get to AA, all thehitters there they're awful too,
because if they're any goodthey'd be in AAA.
Aaa hitters can't hit becauseif they're good they'd be big
leaguers.
Big league hitters aren't goodeither because if they're any
good they'd be all-stars.
Watch out for the all-stars.
Those guys are good.
But it was this way of sayinglike same thing with imposter
(32:10):
syndrome.
The game is a game I alwaysthink of.
Like the emperor has no clothes, the old, like kid story, you
know, and sometimes when I, whenI feel the imposter syndrome,
it can feel like you're walkingaround with no clothes on.
But I think what's the the mind?
My little mind game is nobodyhas clothes on.
All the emperors have clotheson.
(32:32):
So, it's not that anybody, it'snot that you're actually
addressed, it's just everybody'sfeeling this.
We just all, uh, we all handleit differently but I think the
emotions are a big part of it.
So one question to you would bewhat is a story, where kind of
the most emotional episode ofimposter syndrome that you can
(32:56):
think about and maybe riffing alittle bit on the role that
emotions play in impostersyndrome?
Speaker 4 (33:05):
That's such a good question.
There's not a story that'scoming to mind, but, thinking
about emotions, we tend tobelieve that our emotions are
caused by the outside situation.
Like well, my boss showed upupset, so of course I'm going to
be upset today.
And the reason we believe thisis because our caretakers, we
(33:25):
were socialized to believe this.
Our caretakers werewell-intentioned, but they would
say things like oh, did he makeyou feel bad?
Did she hurt your feelings?
And so we learned that ouremotions happen because of
things that happen outside of us.
And it's a veryanxiety-inducing place to be
because you can't controlanybody outside of you.
You don't know how they'regoing to show up, so you don't
know how you're going to feel.
(33:46):
And it's actually a fallacy.
It's.
It's not that our emotions arecreated by and there's
exceptions to this, like intrauma and other things but our
emotions are not created by theoutside circumstance.
Our emotions are created by themeaning that we assign to the
outside circumstance it is yeah,yeah and, and I, I follow
(34:06):
stoicism.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I've been into stoicism for about a year or so.
I guess, I've always beeninclined to it, but I've gotten
back into it lately, and that'sthat's one of the main tenets.
Right, it's it's not whathappens to you, it's how you
react.
That's what you can exactly.
You can control how you react.
And it's very important foryour mental health to take a
(34:31):
deep breath, relax and respondin a way that you feel proud of
Totally.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
And it's super interesting because your
emotions are the fuel for theaction that you take.
There's nobody that feels superoverwhelmed, super decisive,
super like worried about thingsand they like go out and take
amazing action.
No, when we feel overwhelmed,we go scroll on our phones and
so.
But the times when you do feellike motivated, you're pumped up
(35:02):
, you're feeling like awesome,you go out and you take amazing
action.
And, depending on the actionthat you take, that's what gets
you the results that you have.
And so feelings, I think, are areally undervalued but really
critical piece to all of this oflike noticing how you're
feeling.
And you can change how you'refeeling by changing the meaning
that you assign to things.
(35:24):
Like a lot of sellers had areally, really difficult time in
2023.
It was just a really toughmarket, yeah.
And so you could see like, okay, the situation outside of me is
that the market is tough in2023 and I could think like I'm
doomed, I'm never going to beable to be successful, and then
I might feel like apathetic orlike completely like hopeless,
(35:44):
and then I'm not going to takevery good action.
Or I could see, like you, whatthe market's not that great.
I'm going to focus in.
Like my meaning that I'm goingto assign to it is like I'm
going to focus in on the basics.
I'm going to get really good atgoing back to basics and
practicing my maneuvers.
The feeling might be kind ofdetermined and the action that I
take is going to be way betterthan the alternative.
(36:04):
I'm going to actually be takingaction, I'm going to put myself
in the best situation to getthe results that I'm looking for
, and so I do think, like Iobviously work with a lot of
male clients, because that'swhat the majority of sales is,
and I always am like okay, wegot to talk about feelings.
They're like oh no this is thecritical piece that so many
(36:25):
people are shoving down and itactually is going to be what.
What changes your results foryou period?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
that's so good.
It reminds me of uh, what wasit?
Victor frankel who was talking?
Um, you know what I'm lookingup.
His quote says everything canbe taken from a man but one
thing the last pure humanfreedom to choose one's attitude
in any given set ofcircumstances, to choose one's
own way.
I always love that quotebecause that is our one freedom
(36:58):
that nobody can ever take away,no matter what.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Yeah, and it's really powerful.
And your brain is not yourprimitive brain.
The lower part of your brain isthe one that's like operating
in the moment and it's justfocused on risks.
It's just focused on, like whatdo I need to do to stay alive?
Like if I send that email, Imight die.
If I give that presentation andbomb it, then I'm probably
going to get fired and then I'mgoing to lose all my money and
(37:24):
then I'm going to end uphomeless and everybody dies.
So your brain is like focusedon all the risks.
It also somebody, a coach that Ilove she likened it to a drunk
cockatoo Like it's just likerepeating things that it hears.
So we have all these thoughtsthat are coming up that aren't
even true.
But it's we.
We don't spend as much time aswe need to just building the
(37:47):
awareness of those thoughts andlike recognizing, like is that
actually true?
Like no, I'm not doomed, I'mprobably not going to end up
homeless, even if I lose my job.
I probably could find anotherone, you know.
But we just believe them andthen we like let ourselves spin
out and so just building theawareness and paying attention
to what's going on our brain andnot believing all of it is a
massive step that you can take.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
But those voices should be there, right, it
should be normal, because ifthey're not there you're kind of
like a psychopath or asociopath.
There's something wrong withyou if you don't hear those
voices and that soft doubt andwhat generates imposter syndrome
.
As you're out, if you'retotally confident and you have
no doubt about yourself, you'rekind.
If you're totally confident andand you have no doubt about
yourself, you're kind of anoddball, right?
Speaker 4 (38:31):
the goal is not to remove negative emotion.
There's actually no such thingas negative emotion.
There's uncomfortable emotionand unwanted emotion, and
there's wanted emotion, but thenthings that we would deem
negative emotion are the thingsthat are keeping us alive.
If you didn't have that, you'ddie because you wouldn't be
worried about anything.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Yeah, and can you talk a littlebit about the importance of
storytelling with impostersyndrome?
The stories, the narrativesthat we create, you know, to
ourselves, the narratives thatwe try to live out ourselves,
the narratives that we try tolive out.
I feel like there's aconnection there with
storytelling inside of our ownbrains and the imposter syndrome
(39:15):
.
Yeah, I want to call it anissue.
I want to call it maybe like adynamic Is that the right word
for it?
The imposter syndrome dynamic.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
So here's how I describe imposter syndrome and I
think it's really helpful.
I think I compare it to muscles, our physical body.
If you go do a new workout youmaybe are like really good at
CrossFit and you switch and youdo Zumba, you're going to feel
very uncomfortable andafterwards let's say, it's like
a really intense Zumba workoutYou're going to be sore.
(39:45):
You're going to feel musclesthat you've never felt before,
and I think of that musclesoreness after workout being the
same thing as imposter syndrome.
But the difference is, when youfeel sore after a workout, you
think to yourself oh, it'sworking.
I'm using this discomfort asevidence that the growth that
I'm trying to achieve is working.
(40:06):
And imposter syndrome is thesame.
It's just mental discomfort,that's just like sore muscles,
but instead we make it mean.
I'm not cut out for this, andso I think of it as like yeah,
it's a temporary thing, apassing phase that means that
we're growing.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And it's uncomfortable, yes, but it
doesn't mean anything's wrong.
Do you think that that that,especially the, the, the clients
that you coach, right, you getto a point, do they get to the
point where they harness theimposter syndrome feelings for
to to increase their growthright To that they harness the
power of that to to move forward, that they kind of enjoy the
(40:52):
feelings, that, that anxiety ofimposter, and they identify it,
they label it and they kind ofignore it or push it to the side
or do whatever needs to be doneand uses that for accelerating
their growth right, making moresales.
(41:13):
They take it and they take that, what most people perceive as
negative, and they turn it intoa positive and it helps them in
their career.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yeah, the analogy I like to use is it's like
swimming in a prom dress, likeswimming sales itself is not an
easy thing.
It takes a lot of effort, andswimming takes a lot of effort.
But you're doing it in a promdress, like, let's get you in a
swimsuit.
It's going to feel so much morecomfortable.
And so I think of impostersyndrome is not as like you
don't.
You're never going to get ridof imposter syndrome and you
(41:42):
probably don't want to, becausethat would mean that you're
complacent, and the people Iwork with are not people like.
Complacency is like a bad wordto them, right, and so it just.
Imposter syndrome becomes nolonger this weight that you're
carrying around.
But it's like what Liz Gilbertsays.
She talks about this in her bookBig Magic.
She talks about how fear isalways along for the ride
(42:04):
whenever she's writing somethingnew, whenever she's embarking
on a new project.
And it used to be that fearwould be in the front seat
driving.
And now she says fear, likeyou're going to come along the
ride I prefer you weren't here,but like you're going to be here
, you need to sit in the backseat and you don't have any
control over where we go.
You don't get to control theradio, you don't get to pick the
songs, but you can come alongfor the ride.
And I think about impostersyndrome, that same way of like
(42:27):
it's going to be there, it'sfine that it's there, and you
kind of use it as a signal oflike.
Whenever I experience impostersyndrome, I think I'm in my
sweet spot, this is where I wantto be.
It's working, like the effortthat I'm putting in is creating
the discomfort that I'm lookingfor, and it's going to create
(42:59):
new skills.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
So take us through that progression.
Let's say somebody is listeningand they're like, oh man, I
might have it, I might have this, this.
What are the various stepsalong that journey that you see
people go through, as far askind of transitioning or
progressing through this, thismindset of oh no, and freak out
to our and this is normal.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So it takes a lot less time than you would think
it can be like a individualcoaching session that we're able
to make the transformation.
The very first step isdefinitely awareness.
You have to notice when you'refeeling that imposter syndrome
and the next step is just rereframing it, changing your
(43:45):
paradigm about imposter syndrome.
It changing your paradigm aboutimposter syndrome.
If you start out thinking it'sa really big problem, but then,
like, I can talk you intobelieving that like, actually
it's not a problem.
You're the kind of person wholikes growth.
You're the kind of person whowants to develop new skills and
like success.
So imposter syndrome is a signthat you are right there, in
your sweet spot.
For a lot of people, that kindof releases it and then it just
(44:06):
comes into the practice of likeoh, I just noticed it again, I'm
going to go back to like, I'mnot going to let my primitive
brain like run the show and belike this is a disaster, like
they're going to find us out,this is going to be terrible,
and instead I'm going to likenotice that I'm feeling imposter
syndrome.
I'm going to remember my mantraof like, I'm in my sweet spot
and it can kind of like releasefrom there your brain.
(44:27):
When you think a thought, it'stwo neurons in your brain
connecting, and the more youthink that thought, the stronger
that neural pathway gets.
They've done scans of people,scans of the brains of people
who have OCD, and they can seean actual divot in their brain
where that neural pathway is, ofwhatever their recurring
thought is, and so you can thinkabout this.
(44:48):
I think of it as like astructural thing in your brain.
Whenever your brain's like Ihave to get from point A to
point B, how am I going to getthere?
Let's choose this path thatwe've been going down for
decades.
We've always thought this aboutourselves.
But those paths are also justlike routines and habits in your
brain.
It doesn't want to spend toomuch energy on it, so it just
goes back to the default.
It's kind of like if you movehouses within the same city,
(45:12):
after you move, there's probablytimes when you're leaving the
store, you're leaving school,you're leaving the whatever and
leaving work and you startdriving to your old house.
It's not that you're doomed forthe rest of your life to keep
driving to that house.
You just have to remindyourself like, oh, we got a new
path to do this and so nowyou're just trying to build this
new neural pathway so it justbecomes awareness and going back
(45:34):
to what you want to think aboutit, and slowly you can like,
that old neural pathway willbreak apart and the new neural
pathway will become reallystrong and that will become your
new default.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Do you find that there's a personality trait or
type that has the most difficulttime getting?
Over imposter syndrome.
I was going to sayperfectionist or type A, but
what did you say?
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
High achievers High achievers Because they're just
in it all the time and so theythink it's like.
They think it is a personalitytrait.
They don't see it as a shortterm thing.
But yeah, I definitely see, myclients are typically people who
are high achievers.
They've been successful in thepast but they're in a slump
right now.
They're not sure why they're ina slump and they definitely
(46:20):
have some perfectionisttendencies.
They have some impostersyndrome and the biggest problem
that I see with my clients isthey have so many shoulds of
themselves of like I should bedoing this way.
My morning routine should looklike this I should be doing this
many calls.
I should be optimizing myschedule in this way, and I work
with my clients to release allof those shoulds of like let's
(46:42):
figure out what uniquely worksbest for you and like dump out
all the stuff that the gurustell you that you should be
doing.
Like you got to find your ownroutine and your own rhythm so
that you can feel really safewith yourself and also build a
lot of trust in yourself ofactually doing what you said you
were going to do.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I feel like a lot of people in business and sales are
just and high achieversespecially go, go, go, go, go,
go go.
I need to have a calendar thatis stacked every day, and I
mentioned this to a friend ofmine today.
I was like I feel like whenyou're in sales you kind of
fluctuate between the stress ofhaving a completely jammed
(47:22):
calendar and how am I going tofit all these meetings into the
day and handle my emails and nothaving that and dealing with
the anxiety of oh no, what, whyis my calendar?
And so you're, you're, you'rekind of back and forth between
you.
Uh, yeah, that's a.
I might've mentioned that toyou, kevin, but I feel like
(47:43):
where was I going with this?
I feel like, um, what are yourthoughts on the importance of
intentional boredom, which iswhat I'm going to call, uh,
meditation, or or beingintentional about unplugging and
getting away from everything?
Where does that fit into theimposter syndrome spectrum?
(48:05):
What are your, what are yourthoughts there?
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Um, I don't know that that necessarily fits into
imposter syndrome spectrum.
What are your thoughts there?
I don't know that thatnecessarily fits into imposter
syndrome, but it definitely fitsinto being a high achieving
seller.
My goal for all my clients isto get them to a place where
they are first and foremost,prioritizing their work.
You can make massive change foryourself by just doing the most
(48:30):
important thing and knowingwhat the most important thing is
.
If you have nothing else, startthere, just write down every
day three to five things on apost-it note that you have to
get done that day and get themdone.
That alone will create massivechange for people.
I work with my clients on firstknowing what the most important
work is.
Doing that most important workduring what I call your
(48:51):
superhero hours, when you'remost alert, like let's just get
it done.
And then my goal for all myclients is that they have
massive pockets of open space intheir day and the reason that I
think it's so important and Idon't call it boredom
necessarily and I also am likeneurodiverse I don't do well
with meditation and so Iencourage my clients if they're
(49:15):
like me, if you can meditate,great, but if they're like me, I
encourage them to just go forwalks.
It's really helpful for me tocreate space for myself to be
able to think about things, butI can't do it meditating or
whatever else.
I need to trick my body intobeing like we're doing something
productive by going for a walk,but it's really just an escape
for me to be able to think.
When you have that spaciousness, you're able to create so many
(49:40):
more solutions to your problems.
The clients that I work withare enterprise and strategic
account executives, and youcannot be strategic unless you
have time to think about thestrategy.
So the highest bang for yourbuck and the highest value
activity that you can do isallowing yourself the
spaciousness to think.
So I think it's a really keything that a lot of people
(50:02):
aren't talking about.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
It is essential.
It is essential.
You need your quiet time.
You need a packed calendar.
You need your quiet time.
You need a packed calendar.
But you need your quiet timeand sometimes there are days
that you need to foregoeverything and and recharge and
create a strategy that will willhelp you get to that higher
level.
Definitely, amber, it's beengreat having you on the show.
(50:26):
Uh, again, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
And Amber, before we let you go, where can our
listeners find you If they wantto get in touch, or about
coaching, or if they havequestions about imposter
syndrome?
Speaker 4 (50:39):
how can people yeah, um, for this podcast audience, I
open up a few slots.
So if you want to have any moreconversation about this, like,
feel free to reach out to me.
You can find my schedule atmentalmasterycom and just click
on work with me.
You'll see my schedule there.
And if you want to follow along, get any more of my information
, you can also join mynewsletter there or I post on
(51:01):
LinkedIn every day.
You can see all my thoughts,all my unsolicited advice over
on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
Well, thanks again.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Thank you.
Thanks so much, guys.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Thanks, amber.
Hi and welcome to episode five of the Last Cell.
We talk about Cell's journeys,cell's stories, and we learn
through the experiences ofothers, and I'm Kevin Hill, I'm
your co-host for this podcast,along here with Richie Daigle.
How are you doing today, richie?
Yeah, doing well yeah thanksfor that good intro.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I feel like I forgot saying our names in the last
intro.
I forgot like, yeah, it wasvery well done.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I feel like I need to take from you there, kevin we
start talking and then we getunfocused, and then microphones
don't work and a plethora ofthings just go wrong, and we
just record an intro and weforget the fundamentals.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, I think that's a good segue into this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Even though we didn't plan it right, it worked.
This is a little bit of adetour from the normal sales
stories, but I think it's animportant episode for people to
listen to anyways.
Our guest on this episode isAmber Diver.
If you're familiar with Amber,she's a sales coach and she
(01:14):
works with people who are goingthrough the experience of
imposter syndrome.
That is her niche, if you will.
That's her area of expertisehelping people understand it.
What is it?
What does it mean?
Not be scared of it, all ofthese sorts of things.
She has a lot of cool coaching.
(01:35):
She's got a lot of greatprograms where you can learn
more about it.
But this was a cool conversationjust to kind of dive into that
topic.
This was a cool conversationjust to kind of dive into that
topic, going through kind of thelens of storytelling and and
and you know how that dynamiccan play out in the sales arena.
Um, so, yeah, I thought thatwas a really fun conversation.
(01:55):
Uh, really interesting, alwaysfun talking with her.
And yeah, what were yourtakeaways?
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I enjoyed it a lot because I always think about
imposter syndrome and I thinkone of the key takeaways is you
know, certainly don't be scaredof it, but embrace it, because
that's how you grow.
If you don't think, if youdon't have imposter syndrome,
then you're learning new things.
If you're out there just ingrowth mode, you are going to
(02:28):
feel imposter syndrome.
It's normal and you should becomfortable with it, not even
scared of it, embrace it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I agree, and I think awareness is what was my big
this is kind of a word that Ikeep coming back to in a lot of
different realms right now butbeing aware of when you're
having the experience ofimposter syndrome, Also be aware
when you may be having theexperience of Dunning-Kruger
syndrome, which is the opposite.
You know, sometimes I feel likea bit like a pendulum swinging
(03:00):
between the two, but I thinkit's good to know where you're
at, you know, and to always becurious in both scenarios and be
gentle, you know, kind toyourself, not too hard.
I mean, as salespeople weexpect perfection and all these
things, but just being aware ofwhat's happening and what you're
(03:22):
experiencing can be quiteliberating in itself.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It can.
Things don't always work out.
Everyone makes mistakes.
But embracing those failures,embracing that learning from it
and just really beingcomfortable in your own skin and
that makes imposter syndrome.
What did you say bearable?
(03:47):
It's certainly not unbearable,but it kind of makes it fun too.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Well, it's kind of you know I think she uses this
in this episode as well but it'slike embracing the sore muscles
.
Yes, you know, the day afteryou were lifting in the gym and
trying out a whole bunch of newexercises, you know I you're
going to be sore, I can't walk.
I don't like this, I can't like.
Everything hurts.
I don't like like get me out ofhere.
(04:15):
Like give me all the proteinshakes.
How quickly can I get throughthis period?
But that is the sign that youare growing and getting stronger
and working out new musclegroups, et cetera.
So super cool conversation.
I hope you all enjoy it.
Be sure to like subscribe.
Check out Amber and her work.
Go check out GoPayHawk as well,our sponsors.
(04:38):
Go give them some love for allyour payment needs and, yeah,
get into it, enjoy.
I have to ask, amber, did youwatch the, the?
Speaker 4 (04:49):
super bowl did you have?
I did, guys.
I lived in san francisco for 10years and so I was cheering for
the niners and, I gotta behonest, I was watching at the
beginning and then I got soanxious I just I cannot like
help but feel the emotions ofother people and I was like I
can't do this anymore.
So then I just read a bookuntil the commercials came on,
(05:09):
and then watched all thecommercials, of course the
halftime show as well, and thenit was a sad defeat.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It was.
I just did an episode with ToddLeitz and he's both a Bills fan
.
His family is from Buffalo, buthe grew up in the Bay Area or
Northern California, so he's aBills and 49ers fan.
And he was not feeling verygood about it.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, it was a bummer .
It's so funny.
I have a daughter, she's four,and usually when my husband's
watching football she justcheers for whichever team has
the color of outfit that shelikes better.
But this time they're in thesame color.
But she did like the gold pantsbest, so that was the Niners.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Nice we have to break this up a little bit, Kevin.
I feel like we have this themeof 49ers fans coming on.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, taking over the world.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I hear you spend a lot of time in Chattanooga.
What's your favorite?
Spot.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Oh, I used to I used to work for a company.
So I was living in SanFrancisco and they had an office
in Walnut Creek, which is inthe Bay Area, but then their
headquarters was in Chattanoogaand I, honestly, I was like I
maybe have heard a song aboutChattanooga, but I have no idea
where that is.
And so I would come toChattanooga about once a month
(06:24):
from San Francisco and I have tosay the direct flights were not
so good.
So my jam was to fly intoNashville and then drive over to
Chattanooga, because I keptgetting stuck in the Chattanooga
airport.
Like I don't know there were somany delays or whatever.
I was like I'd rather just haveone flight and not have
connections.
But yeah, I was shocked, to behonest with you.
I mean I didn't know what toexpect.
(06:46):
But when I got there I was likewhat is going on here?
Like all the rock climbing, allthe paddle boarding, the
downtown is so cool.
We went for a like a run as ateam and like ran up like one of
the hills and had like this bigview of everything, like it is
a rad little spot and the foodwas amazing, like all the little
restaurants we went to downtown.
(07:07):
I was really shocked I was, Ihave to say.
I was really skeptical and Iwas blown away.
Once I got to chattanooga I waslike this is great, I love it
here I think our next sponsor,kevin, should be the city of
chattanooga.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
now just to see if they should.
Yeah, so thinking of spaces andcool places, where is your
absolute favorite vacation spot?
You have one more vacation leftever.
Yeah, where is Amber going?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
So whenever people like, if I'm doing a meditation
or something, they're like go toyour favorite place on the
planet, it's always this littlebeach I think it's called Secret
Beach.
It's on Kauai.
You have to like hike down.
It's hard to get to and there'slike a bunch of sea turtles
swimming over there.
There's like no, hardly anybody, because you have to hike down
into it.
(08:00):
There's trees in the back of it, but it's like right up against
all these cliffs.
The sand is super soft and thatis the spot.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I always like imagine myself in a hammock at that
spot, listening to the waves.
It's the best place ever.
I love hawaii.
And and follow-up question umfavorite beverage, alcoholic or
non-alcoholic, one beverage tohave with you at this beach,
what do?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
you have.
Can it be slightly frozen?
Can I choose a shave ice,hawaiian shave ice yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So, yeah, I have to tell you this.
But fast forward in the futureand you are on this beach and
there's hawaiian shaved ice.
Everywhere.
There's a little table next tome.
There's some there.
There's actually some that arecoming up in the waves like out
of the ocean Shaved ice.
There's people walking aroundwith it randomly, but you notice
(08:55):
that you're on this beach andyou're older.
Now You're done working and itoccurs to you that you are
completely retired and you'llnever work again.
What was the last thing yousold, or bonus again?
What was the last thing yousold, or bonus?
What?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
was the last project you worked on, one of the two.
What was the last thing you didlast?
I mean, if I'm fully retired,the last thing I sold was my
business and I think I'm fullyretired in like 45 is the goal,
not super old, but it'sinteresting because I always
think about that and I'm like,okay, let's say that I was
(09:31):
retired, what would I want towork on?
And I'm like I don't want to dothe exact same thing I'm doing
every day right now.
Like I kind of have a dream setup and it's so enjoyable and so
interesting.
Yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting because you asked
like what's the last projectthat I worked on?
There's something that's sorewarding to me about being able
to share my ideas and mythoughts on linkedin and with my
(09:55):
newsletter.
It's such an amazing.
I recently got this book.
It's the rick rubin book.
It's called the creative actand he said something in here
about how, um, I don't thinkit's just creatives, but he says
like the creative act is not um, it's not like an abnormal
(10:15):
thing, it's.
He equates it to like it's likea hummingbird flying.
It's like something that youhave to do.
And I don't know if thisapplies to everybody.
But when I heard that, I waslike yes, that's it.
Like there's always going to bea part of me that needs to
create and needs to share myideas and like share my thoughts
and, whether people want tolisten or not, like it's so
(10:38):
rewarding to be able to sharethose things and have people
respond and be like, oh my gosh,I didn't realize I was not the
only one who felt this way, orlike it's so amazing to hear
somebody else who has a similarstory.
Or I never thought ofconsidered it in that direction.
So I think the last, theproject I'm always going to be
working on, is some kind ofcreative like whether it's
sharing my thoughts to myselfand figuring out what's going on
(10:59):
in that crazy brain, or it'ssharing my thoughts with other
people and helping them see anew side that maybe they hadn't
seen before.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Kind of always reminds me um the, the, the
quote from Willie Nelson ofwhenever people told him he
should retire and he says, all Ido is play music with my
friends and golf.
Which one should I?
give up, right?
It's just that the creativepart of you is just natural and
(11:27):
you should never.
You can't retire from it.
You can't retire from thecreativity and and the, the joy
or whatever feeling that you getout of, out of helping people,
the serving other people,creating things.
So that's one of those thingsthat is untethered from money
(11:47):
really.
You know, probably your mostsatisfying sell or coaching,
engagement or project didn'thave dollars attached to it
whatsoever.
It was for the fulfillment ofthat and the dollars came in
later.
And it maybe opened the door forthat and the dollars came in
later, but it may have openedthe door for for for success.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Mm.
Hmm, I read something recentlyabout satisfaction that kind of
blew my mind.
It's in the book Build a BetterLife by Oprah and Arthur Brooks
, and he talks about how there'slike micro.
It's a book about happiness andhe talks about how there's like
micro.
It's a book about happiness andhe talks about how there's like
micro nutrients that are neededto create happiness.
One is enjoyment, one issatisfaction, and I forgot the
(12:30):
third one.
It may be come to me, but whathe said about satisfaction was
satisfaction only happens whenyou work hard at something and
then see the result come tofruition and creativity.
Like it's not an enjoyableprocess necessarily.
Like you do something arduous,like I think of like prospecting
.
The same way, like prospectingis not fun, but then when you
(12:52):
see that you hit your number oflike how many new deals you
wanted, like that's fun, that'sso satisfying.
And I think of creativity kindof in a similar way, or like
exactly what you were talkingabout.
Like any one of these things oflike signing a new deal or like
getting a new client orwhatever it is like it's the,
(13:13):
it's the satisfaction of like Iworked for this, it wasn't easy
what I did, and now I get tolike enjoy the reward of my
efforts yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I feel like that theme comes up with a lot of
creatives, whether it's authors,uh, musicians that they are
doing the thing because theyfeel compelled to do the thing,
and they're going to do it nomatter what.
It doesn't matter if someone'slistening or reading, they just
have to get it out of them.
They have to go through theprocess of creating, and that
process is every bit asimportant as the final product,
(13:44):
something that would desire, youknow.
You think about all thesepeople that are so driven to to
achieve whatever it is thatthey're going after.
And the most obvious, you know,example of this is think about
the scientists that weredeveloping, like nuclear energy,
and they probably figured outat some point that, oh yeah,
this is going to kill me, likeI'm going to die because I'm,
(14:07):
you know, going through.
I figured out I'm a scientist,I figured out, like, how
radioactivity works.
Now I'm putting myself intothat because I kind of see this
greater cause, or this greaterpossibility.
That desire can be destructiveat times, but it can also be
harnessed and it can produce alot of cool things.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Yeah, the last thing was purpose, by the way
Enjoyment, satisfaction andpurpose Having some kind of
meaning behind why you're doingwhat you're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes, and we see a lot of people with their sales
business or literature, nuclearenergy, but they have a.
They want the purpose, theywant the creativity, but
something holds them back andit's something that I know you
talk about a lot and that isimposter syndrome.
(14:57):
Yeah, and I post out a lot ofresearch on LinkedIn, share a
lot of content, lot of researchon LinkedIn, share a lot of
content.
I've been doing it for yearsnow and every time I, before I
hit that post button, I get thistwinge of imposter syndrome
myself.
It just never goes away.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah.
So let me tell you kind of mydefinition of imposter syndrome.
Imposter syndrome has threedifferent flavors and you may
have like one of these flavors,you may have all three, most
people have all three, butimposter syndrome is number one.
You feel like a fraud.
You feel like you're makingthis up, you don't know what
you're doing and people aregoing to find out, which is the
scariest part.
The second flavor of it is youfeel like you just got lucky.
(15:42):
You were in the right place atthe right time.
Like you just got lucky.
The people who put you in thisposition were temporarily
incompetent and didn't know whatthey were doing to give you
this option, which, by the way,usually is combined with like
I'm surrounded by people who aresuper smart and I don't belong
here.
I'm like, how can they be supersmart and also incompetent
enough to put you here?
(16:02):
Like, let's just ask ourselvesthat.
Like, how can they be supersmart and also incompetent
enough to put you here?
Let's just ask ourselves that.
And then the last flavor of itis downplaying your achievements
, saying anybody could have donethis, it wasn't that big of a
deal.
My favorite example of this isa PhD in rocket science.
It was like, oh, it's not thatbig of a deal, anybody could
have done what I did.
Like no, actually they couldn'thave.
But you see these three thingsgoing on with all of us.
(16:24):
And what imposter syndrome isnot which I think sometimes it
gets lumped in here is there arepeople who have and I would
include myself in this group.
Sometimes there are people whohave this grinding, lingering
feeling of not being good enoughor not being qualified enough,
or not ever, I don't know.
(16:45):
It's kind of like this, thispiece, this aspect that
infiltrates multiple areas ofyour life, not just your
professional life, but maybeyour parenting, maybe your
friendships, maybe you're likeromantic partnerships, and that
usually is not kind of, I think,of imposter syndrome more as
like a what's it called?
Like a temporary thing, notlike a lifelong thing.
(17:07):
So if you do start to feelthose like just that, really
like that weight that you'recarrying around of, like I'm
never going to be good enough,this is never going to be good
enough, then like, I definitelyrecommend therapy and that's
what helps me quite a bit.
But imposter syndrome is moreof like a temporary, it's not
like a disease, it's like abroken leg, if that makes sense.
I'm trying to think of what theword is, but like something
(17:27):
that happens and can be resolvedpretty quickly well, like a
temporary bout of anxiety.
Yeah, that will go away right,yes, so, and it's really
interesting too, of why you haveimposter syndrome.
Um, it's interesting becausewhen you are experiencing
imposter syndrome, we all thinklike I'm the only one who feels
(17:49):
this way.
There's no way that mycolleagues also feel this way,
like why is it just me?
And in fact, imposter syndrome,they estimate, affects probably
70% of the population, but Iwould guess it's like 100% of
the population and impostersyndrome actually increases the
higher up in rank you go in anorganization.
So the CEO is most likely tofeel imposter syndrome, whereas,
(18:13):
like, the new college grad isleast likely to feel it, and
there's also usually somethingthat happens in here of feeling
like the odd one out.
You're more likely to feelimposter syndrome if you feel
like you're different from allyour colleagues.
Maybe you have a differentbackground.
So many sellers come to me andthey're like well, I didn't come
(18:33):
from a traditional salesbackground and I still, like you
can fight me on this, but I'mlike there's no such thing as a
traditional sales background,like that's not.
There's no sales degree.
Like what?
What is the sales backgroundLike?
Please tell me.
Like what is the salesbackground like?
Please tell me.
Like what is the traditionalsales background, however, you
got into sales.
What's the right way to getinto sales?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
it's the mythology that people who haven't had
years of position in sales or asa salesperson makes up that
this is the quintessential salesbackground.
Yes, it doesn't exist, it'sjust myth, right?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
So?
Like, well, I don't qualify,I'm a fraud because I don't have
the right experience, or maybeI look different than everybody
in my organization or I'moriented different or have a
different race or a differentgender or different orientation
Like something about me.
My experience is different.
So, to tell a personal story, Iexperienced massive, massive
(19:30):
imposter syndrome, which is whyI care so much about this.
My story is that I grew up inpoverty.
I grew up in a blue-collar town.
I was one of six kids.
I was homeschooled.
I didn't graduate high schooland then fast forward.
I was working and living in SanFrancisco downtown at a tech
startup.
It achieved unicorn status andI was managing a team and making
(19:53):
six figures for the first timeand I was like I can't let
anybody know that I'm notsupposed to be here, right, like
?
Can you guys feel that, likethey're going to find out I'm
not supposed to be here.
They're going to find out thatI'm poor, that I'm uneducated,
like I have a college degree,but like they're going to find
out I'm not supposed to be here?
They're going to find out thatI'm poor, that I'm uneducated,
like I have a college degree,but like they're going to find
out that I'm not supposed to behere.
I'm surrounded by people whohave Ivy League degrees and are
(20:15):
super, super smart, and theimposter syndrome was so massive
.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, unlike the textbook example.
Go ahead, richie, sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, I feel like it comes in waves.
Right, I feel like, like yousaid, people experience it at
different times and you saidthat close to everybody
experiences it and that it Ifeel like it comes in waves.
Maybe, hopefully, you agreewith this, but there's certain
types, certain moments in acareer or in a path where you're
(20:46):
more likely to get hit by awave of imposter syndrome, and
you would probably know whatsome of those key moments are.
Yeah.
So yeah, and I will say beforewe jump into having you kind of
walk through some of that,typically we ask in this podcast
you know what was your firstsale and your biggest sale and
your most emotional sale?
(21:07):
But I think we can pivot inthis moment because this is
tangential to those salesstories.
but it's also very important tokind of tell stories around
imposter syndrome and storiesthat you know of course don't
give away anything sensitive,but stories that either you've
experienced or in coaching orpersonally, that may resonate
whether it's the biggest case ofimposter syndrome you've
(21:27):
experienced, or in coaching orpersonally, that may resonate
whether it's the biggest case ofimposter syndrome you've ever
come across or maybe a specificscenario that was quite
emotional, but I think thatmight be interesting to explore
here.
So, just so our listenersunderstand, we're going to pivot
just a little bit thestorytelling from the normal
(21:48):
range of questions here toreally focus on imposter
syndrome today.
But yeah, maybe you could jumpinto kind of some of those key
moments in a career where you'remost likely to see imposter
syndrome come up.
And then second question whatwas the kind of the biggest case
of imposter syndrome thatyou've come across, either in
(22:08):
personally or in your coaching?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
So imposter syndrome and here's like, if you hear
nothing else from this episode,here's what I want you to hear
Imposter syndrome only happenswhen you're in a growth phase.
Imposter syndrome the oppositeof imposter syndrome is
complacency.
I have talked to some peoplenot clients, but like peers and
friends, like I remember talkingto like another mom that I'd
(22:35):
met.
Our kids were in the same classand I was talking to her about
her imposter syndrome and herhusband was like I never have
imposter syndrome.
I just don't.
I never have it.
And I was like how long have youbeen in your job?
He's like seven years.
And I was like when's the lasttime you got promoted?
Seven years ago?
He's like it's just the sameall the time.
When you're complacent and thatno judgment, right, like some
(22:56):
people like this is what they gofor.
When you're complacent in yourcareer, you never feel imposter
syndrome because you're notgrowing, you're not trying to
learn new skills, you alreadyknow how to do everything.
Imposter syndrome only happenswhen you've got your next
promotion, your next big project, you started at a new company,
you are up leveling your skills.
It only can happen if you're asuccess.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
That makes perfect sense.
Only in growth can you feellike an imposter because you're
trying something new.
And if you're not tryingsomething new, then you're not
getting anywhere Right.
Not trying something new, thenyou're not getting anywhere
right.
So, and whenever you said theexecutives, you know I've been
hearing I'm part of founderscommunity now in logistics and
(23:40):
everyone in there, from thepeople who are just starting out
to the people who have beenrunning startups for five, six,
seven years, every day.
It's a joke because we're alljust making up as we go and
that's part of feeling thatimposter syndrome.
Because you haven't been herebefore.
(24:01):
I've never been a CEO of a $1million company.
I've never been one of a1,100,000.
So each day it's just you'regrowing and you're kind of
feeling and it's kind of awkwardbut it's addicting too.
That's how I like to live life.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Absolutely.
What I think about is thepeople who come to me and they
say, like well, I've feltimposter syndrome my entire
career.
It's been this consistent thing.
You can tell me nothing elseabout yourself and I know that
your career trajectory has beenhockey stick growth and they're
like oh yeah, you're right, Idid get promoted a lot, like
you're just constantly puttingyourself in new growth positions
(24:43):
.
But I want you to notice thatthe imposter syndrome is
temporary.
You may have had continualimposter syndrome, but it's
temporary in that you might feellike an imposter the first time
you do cold calling and thenyou do it for a few years and
you no longer feel like animposter.
And then you feel like animposter with the first time you
do demos and you feel awful andthen, like, pretty soon, you
(25:06):
get good at it.
You don't even have to practiceanymore.
You like know exactly what tosay.
So I want you to notice thatthe imposter syndrome is
temporary in that it'sinevitable that it's going to go
away as soon as you learn thatskill.
All you have to do is keepgoing through the repetitions
(25:31):
and pretty soon you won't feellike an imposter anymore.
But where?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
we go wrong is a lot of us feel that imposter
syndrome and we make it meanthat we're not cut out for it
and we stop.
Yeah, it's something that youknow.
I'm fascinated to the degreethat you're fascinated with
imposters, imposter syndrome.
I'm fascinated with underdogsand the underdog mindset and how
an underdog functions.
And there's a lot ofcommonality because when you're
an underdog, your back's againstthe wall and you're looking at
(25:53):
a quote, unquote, impossiblefeat.
You're going to go up againstsome opponent that everybody you
know, that everybody is isconvinced is going to crush you
or, like you're, you're heavilyoutmatched.
But there's a freedom in thatand that you can take all of the
stress that comes along withhigh expectations for success
(26:15):
and say I don't have that, I'mfree from that, I can, I can
compete and engage from aposition of what if let's see
what happens, let's give it ashot.
What if let's see what happens,let's give it a shot.
Um, and I think there's a lotof power in that and you get.
You see, all these greatunderdog stories where people
overperform, like the, thehockey team back in the 80s that
(26:37):
that beat the russians, andlike that's a great example.
But there's all these differentexamples of incredible underdog
stories throughout the years.
But it was people or teams orindividuals that um had this
kind of level of impostersyndrome but used it as a
superpower.
They like leaned into it.
You know, um.
Yeah, I don't know if you haveany comments on on underdogs and
(26:59):
imposter syndrome or theoverlap there, but curious um,
my, whenever I hear underdogs, Ialways think of malcolm
gladwell.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
He was on a podcast episode I listened to like
decades ago maybe, and he talkedabout how he never roots for
the underdog.
He's like you have to be amasochist to root for the
underdog because the likelihoodis that they're not going to win
.
Why would you root for theunderdog anyway?
That's what I thought of, butnot really helpful, but kind of
funny.
I was like such a good point,why don't we root for the winner
?
We're going to be more likelyto win if we were anyway true,
(27:30):
but what's?
fun in that right exactly.
It's so satisfying to see theunderdog win.
Yeah, there's no drama.
There's nothing in it, yeah um,except cold hard facts right,
yeah, um, I keep thinking ofthis example of a client of mine
who had imposter syndrome andwhat's super fascinating.
(27:50):
So, again, I have so manypeople who come and set up calls
with me and they're like I gotto let you in on the secret.
Like, sometimes I feel like animposter and they feel so
embarrassed about it and thinklike they're the only ones and I
just want to be like, if youonly knew how many people like I
would argue that all yourcolleagues have felt the exact
same way as you.
So this particular personalready was the top seller at
(28:15):
their software company.
Like they had the number oneranking.
They went to President's Club,they already were the top.
And so I'm sure that all theother people in the organization
were like well, obviously thatperson doesn't have this problem
, right.
All the other people in theorganization were like well,
obviously that person doesn'thave this problem, right.
But this person came to me andwas like I get in these meetings
with Fortune 50 CEOs and Ipersonally don't have a college
(28:37):
degree and I'm sitting acrossthe table from people who are
McKinsey Harvard graduates withtheir MBA, and who am I to be
telling them how they should runtheir business.
And so this person felt likethey would get really befuddled
with their MBA.
And who am I to be telling themhow they should run their
business?
And so this person felt likethey would get really befuddled
with their communication.
They would talk too fast, theywould get like all confused and
(28:58):
they felt like they justcouldn't handle it.
And not that they couldn'thandle it, but they were like I
maybe need communicationtraining because I just talk too
fast, because I'm so nervous.
And when we helped identify theimposter syndrome and helped
reframe it of like this is justa growth phase, you would not be
feeling this unless you're amassive success which we know
that you are and reframe the wayyou're thinking about it.
(29:18):
And I think of it as like Idon't ever try to solve imposter
syndrome.
I don't ever try to vanquishimposter syndrome.
I try to just notice it.
And I am a high achiever andsomebody who has real big
aspirations and wants to begrowing.
And so now when I notice it, Itell myself like, oh, I'm in my
(29:41):
sweet spot.
This is exactly where I want tobe, where, if you talk to me,
what would that be 15 years ago,when I was working for the
startup 10 years ago.
If you talk to me then I wouldhave told you like there's
something broken in my DNA.
I see all these other people.
They seem to be way moreconfident than me.
I guess I'm just not aconfident person and I'll never
(30:02):
be confident.
And instead now I see that sameimposter syndrome as just like
oh, I'm in my sweet spot, I justhave to keep going and it's
inevitable that it's going to goaway.
So, yeah, what we're saying isnormal and healthy yeah Let me
tell you that seller ended upclosing two massive deals.
He made seven figures as aseller that year and then did it
(30:25):
another couple years.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Once he resolved those mindset problems when you
said that, the communication, hegot befuddled and and uh or she
um in in boardrooms withfortune 50s.
It reminds me we were atfreight waves and I was on live
tv, you know, or for htv.
A lot of times I had noexperience I didn't know what I
was doing, I'd come off the showand I'm like man, that was such
(30:50):
a disaster.
I don't even know what I wastalking about.
Then I'd re-watch it Not sayingit was good, but it was just
like oh, no one out there couldperceive what was going on in my
head, because it didn't showand it just kind of went smooth,
it wasn't a disaster.
It just went as smooth as Icould do it, um, but we can, or
(31:11):
you know, we get in our ownheads oftentimes and what we
perceive is much more dramaticand and overboard than what
everyone else perceives.
Totally.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It reminds me of the time I was playing baseball.
I got called up out of rookieball or extended short season to
high A, so I was skipping twolevels and Johnny Gomes, his
brother Joey, his locker wasnext to mine.
Joey had been in triple Aforever.
He's like where are you going?
I was like California.
He says, oh, are you nervous?
I'm like, yeah, I am, I'mskipping two levels, I'm nervous
(31:50):
.
He's like well, all the hittersin the California League,
they're terrible because ifthey're any good they'd be in AA
.
When you get to AA, all thehitters there they're awful too,
because if they're any goodthey'd be in AAA.
Aaa hitters can't hit becauseif they're good they'd be big
leaguers.
Big league hitters aren't goodeither because if they're any
good they'd be all-stars.
Watch out for the all-stars.
Those guys are good.
But it was this way of sayinglike same thing with imposter
(32:10):
syndrome.
The game is a game I alwaysthink of.
Like the emperor has no clothes, the old, like kid story, you
know, and sometimes when I, whenI feel the imposter syndrome,
it can feel like you're walkingaround with no clothes on.
But I think what's the the mind?
My little mind game is nobodyhas clothes on.
All the emperors have clotheson.
(32:32):
So, it's not that anybody, it'snot that you're actually
addressed, it's just everybody'sfeeling this.
We just all, uh, we all handleit differently but I think the
emotions are a big part of it.
So one question to you would bewhat is a story, where kind of
the most emotional episode ofimposter syndrome that you can
(32:56):
think about and maybe riffing alittle bit on the role that
emotions play in impostersyndrome?
Speaker 4 (33:05):
That's such a good question.
There's not a story that'scoming to mind, but, thinking
about emotions, we tend tobelieve that our emotions are
caused by the outside situation.
Like well, my boss showed upupset, so of course I'm going to
be upset today.
And the reason we believe thisis because our caretakers, we
(33:25):
were socialized to believe this.
Our caretakers werewell-intentioned, but they would
say things like oh, did he makeyou feel bad?
Did she hurt your feelings?
And so we learned that ouremotions happen because of
things that happen outside of us.
And it's a veryanxiety-inducing place to be
because you can't controlanybody outside of you.
You don't know how they'regoing to show up, so you don't
know how you're going to feel.
(33:46):
And it's actually a fallacy.
It's.
It's not that our emotions arecreated by and there's
exceptions to this, like intrauma and other things but our
emotions are not created by theoutside circumstance.
Our emotions are created by themeaning that we assign to the
outside circumstance it is yeah,yeah and, and I, I follow
(34:06):
stoicism.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I've been into stoicism for about a year or so.
I guess, I've always beeninclined to it, but I've gotten
back into it lately, and that'sthat's one of the main tenets.
Right, it's it's not whathappens to you, it's how you
react.
That's what you can exactly.
You can control how you react.
And it's very important foryour mental health to take a
(34:31):
deep breath, relax and respondin a way that you feel proud of
Totally.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
And it's super interesting because your
emotions are the fuel for theaction that you take.
There's nobody that feels superoverwhelmed, super decisive,
super like worried about thingsand they like go out and take
amazing action.
No, when we feel overwhelmed,we go scroll on our phones and
so.
But the times when you do feellike motivated, you're pumped up
(35:02):
, you're feeling like awesome,you go out and you take amazing
action.
And, depending on the actionthat you take, that's what gets
you the results that you have.
And so feelings, I think, are areally undervalued but really
critical piece to all of this oflike noticing how you're
feeling.
And you can change how you'refeeling by changing the meaning
that you assign to things.
(35:24):
Like a lot of sellers had areally, really difficult time in
2023.
It was just a really toughmarket, yeah.
And so you could see like, okay, the situation outside of me is
that the market is tough in2023 and I could think like I'm
doomed, I'm never going to beable to be successful, and then
I might feel like apathetic orlike completely like hopeless,
(35:44):
and then I'm not going to takevery good action.
Or I could see, like you, whatthe market's not that great.
I'm going to focus in.
Like my meaning that I'm goingto assign to it is like I'm
going to focus in on the basics.
I'm going to get really good atgoing back to basics and
practicing my maneuvers.
The feeling might be kind ofdetermined and the action that I
take is going to be way betterthan the alternative.
(36:04):
I'm going to actually be takingaction, I'm going to put myself
in the best situation to getthe results that I'm looking for
, and so I do think, like Iobviously work with a lot of
male clients, because that'swhat the majority of sales is,
and I always am like okay, wegot to talk about feelings.
They're like oh no this is thecritical piece that so many
(36:25):
people are shoving down and itactually is going to be what.
What changes your results foryou period?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
that's so good.
It reminds me of uh, what wasit?
Victor frankel who was talking?
Um, you know what I'm lookingup.
His quote says everything canbe taken from a man but one
thing the last pure humanfreedom to choose one's attitude
in any given set ofcircumstances, to choose one's
own way.
I always love that quotebecause that is our one freedom
(36:58):
that nobody can ever take away,no matter what.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Yeah, and it's really powerful.
And your brain is not yourprimitive brain.
The lower part of your brain isthe one that's like operating
in the moment and it's justfocused on risks.
It's just focused on, like whatdo I need to do to stay alive?
Like if I send that email, Imight die.
If I give that presentation andbomb it, then I'm probably
going to get fired and then I'mgoing to lose all my money and
(37:24):
then I'm going to end uphomeless and everybody dies.
So your brain is like focusedon all the risks.
It also somebody, a coach that Ilove she likened it to a drunk
cockatoo Like it's just likerepeating things that it hears.
So we have all these thoughtsthat are coming up that aren't
even true.
But it's we.
We don't spend as much time aswe need to just building the
(37:47):
awareness of those thoughts andlike recognizing, like is that
actually true?
Like no, I'm not doomed, I'mprobably not going to end up
homeless, even if I lose my job.
I probably could find anotherone, you know.
But we just believe them andthen we like let ourselves spin
out and so just building theawareness and paying attention
to what's going on our brain andnot believing all of it is a
massive step that you can take.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
But those voices should be there, right, it
should be normal, because ifthey're not there you're kind of
like a psychopath or asociopath.
There's something wrong withyou if you don't hear those
voices and that soft doubt andwhat generates imposter syndrome
.
As you're out, if you'retotally confident and you have
no doubt about yourself, you'rekind.
If you're totally confident andand you have no doubt about
yourself, you're kind of anoddball, right?
Speaker 4 (38:31):
the goal is not to remove negative emotion.
There's actually no such thingas negative emotion.
There's uncomfortable emotionand unwanted emotion, and
there's wanted emotion, but thenthings that we would deem
negative emotion are the thingsthat are keeping us alive.
If you didn't have that, you'ddie because you wouldn't be
worried about anything.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Yeah, and can you talk a littlebit about the importance of
storytelling with impostersyndrome?
The stories, the narrativesthat we create, you know, to
ourselves, the narratives thatwe try to live out ourselves,
the narratives that we try tolive out.
I feel like there's aconnection there with
storytelling inside of our ownbrains and the imposter syndrome
(39:15):
.
Yeah, I want to call it anissue.
I want to call it maybe like adynamic Is that the right word
for it?
The imposter syndrome dynamic.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
So here's how I describe imposter syndrome and I
think it's really helpful.
I think I compare it to muscles, our physical body.
If you go do a new workout youmaybe are like really good at
CrossFit and you switch and youdo Zumba, you're going to feel
very uncomfortable andafterwards let's say, it's like
a really intense Zumba workoutYou're going to be sore.
(39:45):
You're going to feel musclesthat you've never felt before,
and I think of that musclesoreness after workout being the
same thing as imposter syndrome.
But the difference is, when youfeel sore after a workout, you
think to yourself oh, it'sworking.
I'm using this discomfort asevidence that the growth that
I'm trying to achieve is working.
(40:06):
And imposter syndrome is thesame.
It's just mental discomfort,that's just like sore muscles,
but instead we make it mean.
I'm not cut out for this, andso I think of it as like yeah,
it's a temporary thing, apassing phase that means that
we're growing.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And it's uncomfortable, yes, but it
doesn't mean anything's wrong.
Do you think that that that,especially the, the, the clients
that you coach, right, you getto a point, do they get to the
point where they harness theimposter syndrome feelings for
to to increase their growthright To that they harness the
power of that to to move forward, that they kind of enjoy the
(40:52):
feelings, that, that anxiety ofimposter, and they identify it,
they label it and they kind ofignore it or push it to the side
or do whatever needs to be doneand uses that for accelerating
their growth right, making moresales.
(41:13):
They take it and they take that, what most people perceive as
negative, and they turn it intoa positive and it helps them in
their career.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yeah, the analogy I like to use is it's like
swimming in a prom dress, likeswimming sales itself is not an
easy thing.
It takes a lot of effort, andswimming takes a lot of effort.
But you're doing it in a promdress, like, let's get you in a
swimsuit.
It's going to feel so much morecomfortable.
And so I think of impostersyndrome is not as like you
don't.
You're never going to get ridof imposter syndrome and you
(41:42):
probably don't want to, becausethat would mean that you're
complacent, and the people Iwork with are not people like.
Complacency is like a bad wordto them, right, and so it just.
Imposter syndrome becomes nolonger this weight that you're
carrying around.
But it's like what Liz Gilbertsays.
She talks about this in her bookBig Magic.
She talks about how fear isalways along for the ride
(42:04):
whenever she's writing somethingnew, whenever she's embarking
on a new project.
And it used to be that fearwould be in the front seat
driving.
And now she says fear, likeyou're going to come along the
ride I prefer you weren't here,but like you're going to be here
, you need to sit in the backseat and you don't have any
control over where we go.
You don't get to control theradio, you don't get to pick the
songs, but you can come alongfor the ride.
And I think about impostersyndrome, that same way of like
(42:27):
it's going to be there, it'sfine that it's there, and you
kind of use it as a signal oflike.
Whenever I experience impostersyndrome, I think I'm in my
sweet spot, this is where I wantto be.
It's working, like the effortthat I'm putting in is creating
the discomfort that I'm lookingfor, and it's going to create
(42:59):
new skills.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
So take us through that progression.
Let's say somebody is listeningand they're like, oh man, I
might have it, I might have this, this.
What are the various stepsalong that journey that you see
people go through, as far askind of transitioning or
progressing through this, thismindset of oh no, and freak out
to our and this is normal.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So it takes a lot less time than you would think
it can be like a individualcoaching session that we're able
to make the transformation.
The very first step isdefinitely awareness.
You have to notice when you'refeeling that imposter syndrome
and the next step is just rereframing it, changing your
(43:45):
paradigm about imposter syndrome.
It changing your paradigm aboutimposter syndrome.
If you start out thinking it'sa really big problem, but then,
like, I can talk you intobelieving that like, actually
it's not a problem.
You're the kind of person wholikes growth.
You're the kind of person whowants to develop new skills and
like success.
So imposter syndrome is a signthat you are right there, in
your sweet spot.
For a lot of people, that kindof releases it and then it just
(44:06):
comes into the practice of likeoh, I just noticed it again, I'm
going to go back to like, I'mnot going to let my primitive
brain like run the show and belike this is a disaster, like
they're going to find us out,this is going to be terrible,
and instead I'm going to likenotice that I'm feeling imposter
syndrome.
I'm going to remember my mantraof like, I'm in my sweet spot
and it can kind of like releasefrom there your brain.
(44:27):
When you think a thought, it'stwo neurons in your brain
connecting, and the more youthink that thought, the stronger
that neural pathway gets.
They've done scans of people,scans of the brains of people
who have OCD, and they can seean actual divot in their brain
where that neural pathway is, ofwhatever their recurring
thought is, and so you can thinkabout this.
(44:48):
I think of it as like astructural thing in your brain.
Whenever your brain's like Ihave to get from point A to
point B, how am I going to getthere?
Let's choose this path thatwe've been going down for
decades.
We've always thought this aboutourselves.
But those paths are also justlike routines and habits in your
brain.
It doesn't want to spend toomuch energy on it, so it just
goes back to the default.
It's kind of like if you movehouses within the same city,
(45:12):
after you move, there's probablytimes when you're leaving the
store, you're leaving school,you're leaving the whatever and
leaving work and you startdriving to your old house.
It's not that you're doomed forthe rest of your life to keep
driving to that house.
You just have to remindyourself like, oh, we got a new
path to do this and so nowyou're just trying to build this
new neural pathway so it justbecomes awareness and going back
(45:34):
to what you want to think aboutit, and slowly you can like,
that old neural pathway willbreak apart and the new neural
pathway will become reallystrong and that will become your
new default.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Do you find that there's a personality trait or
type that has the most difficulttime getting?
Over imposter syndrome.
I was going to sayperfectionist or type A, but
what did you say?
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
High achievers High achievers Because they're just
in it all the time and so theythink it's like.
They think it is a personalitytrait.
They don't see it as a shortterm thing.
But yeah, I definitely see, myclients are typically people who
are high achievers.
They've been successful in thepast but they're in a slump
right now.
They're not sure why they're ina slump and they definitely
(46:20):
have some perfectionisttendencies.
They have some impostersyndrome and the biggest problem
that I see with my clients isthey have so many shoulds of
themselves of like I should bedoing this way.
My morning routine should looklike this I should be doing this
many calls.
I should be optimizing myschedule in this way, and I work
with my clients to release allof those shoulds of like let's
(46:42):
figure out what uniquely worksbest for you and like dump out
all the stuff that the gurustell you that you should be
doing.
Like you got to find your ownroutine and your own rhythm so
that you can feel really safewith yourself and also build a
lot of trust in yourself ofactually doing what you said you
were going to do.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I feel like a lot of people in business and sales are
just and high achieversespecially go, go, go, go, go,
go go.
I need to have a calendar thatis stacked every day, and I
mentioned this to a friend ofmine today.
I was like I feel like whenyou're in sales you kind of
fluctuate between the stress ofhaving a completely jammed
(47:22):
calendar and how am I going tofit all these meetings into the
day and handle my emails and nothaving that and dealing with
the anxiety of oh no, what, whyis my calendar?
And so you're, you're, you'rekind of back and forth between
you.
Uh, yeah, that's a.
I might've mentioned that toyou, kevin, but I feel like
(47:43):
where was I going with this?
I feel like, um, what are yourthoughts on the importance of
intentional boredom, which iswhat I'm going to call, uh,
meditation, or or beingintentional about unplugging and
getting away from everything?
Where does that fit into theimposter syndrome spectrum?
(48:05):
What are your, what are yourthoughts there?
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Um, I don't know that that necessarily fits into
imposter syndrome spectrum.
What are your thoughts there?
I don't know that thatnecessarily fits into imposter
syndrome, but it definitely fitsinto being a high achieving
seller.
My goal for all my clients isto get them to a place where
they are first and foremost,prioritizing their work.
You can make massive change foryourself by just doing the most
(48:30):
important thing and knowingwhat the most important thing is
.
If you have nothing else, startthere, just write down every
day three to five things on apost-it note that you have to
get done that day and get themdone.
That alone will create massivechange for people.
I work with my clients on firstknowing what the most important
work is.
Doing that most important workduring what I call your
(48:51):
superhero hours, when you'remost alert, like let's just get
it done.
And then my goal for all myclients is that they have
massive pockets of open space intheir day and the reason that I
think it's so important and Idon't call it boredom
necessarily and I also am likeneurodiverse I don't do well
with meditation and so Iencourage my clients if they're
(49:15):
like me, if you can meditate,great, but if they're like me, I
encourage them to just go forwalks.
It's really helpful for me tocreate space for myself to be
able to think about things, butI can't do it meditating or
whatever else.
I need to trick my body intobeing like we're doing something
productive by going for a walk,but it's really just an escape
for me to be able to think.
When you have that spaciousness, you're able to create so many
(49:40):
more solutions to your problems.
The clients that I work withare enterprise and strategic
account executives, and youcannot be strategic unless you
have time to think about thestrategy.
So the highest bang for yourbuck and the highest value
activity that you can do isallowing yourself the
spaciousness to think.
So I think it's a really keything that a lot of people
(50:02):
aren't talking about.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
It is essential.
It is essential.
You need your quiet time.
You need a packed calendar.
You need your quiet time.
You need a packed calendar.
But you need your quiet timeand sometimes there are days
that you need to foregoeverything and and recharge and
create a strategy that will willhelp you get to that higher
level.
Definitely, amber, it's beengreat having you on the show.
(50:26):
Uh, again, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
And Amber, before we let you go, where can our
listeners find you If they wantto get in touch, or about
coaching, or if they havequestions about imposter
syndrome?
Speaker 4 (50:39):
how can people yeah, um, for this podcast audience, I
open up a few slots.
So if you want to have any moreconversation about this, like,
feel free to reach out to me.
You can find my schedule atmentalmasterycom and just click
on work with me.
You'll see my schedule there.
And if you want to follow along, get any more of my information
, you can also join mynewsletter there or I post on
(51:01):
LinkedIn every day.
You can see all my thoughts,all my unsolicited advice over
on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
Well, thanks again.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Thank you.
Thanks so much, guys.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Thanks, amber.
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