May 3, 2024 • 53 mins
Step into the high-stakes world of freighttech sales strategy with Ryan Sullivan, a pro at creating sales teams. Ryan's sage advice on creating a go-to-market strategy that's as precise as a poker player's calculated bluff. As we shuffle through the deck of scaling intricacies, from constructing the perfect customer profile to navigating the chaotic tableau of business growth, Ryan deals a hand that is sure to set you on the path to success.
Thanks again to your our sponsor, GoPayhawk. Stop overpaying and start thriving with GoPayhawk's payment process solutions. Visit GoPayhawk.com today and use code TLS24 to learn more about receiving a $250 credit on your payment processing solutions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And welcome to episode six of the Last Sell.
I'm Kevin Hill, your co-host uphere, along with Richie Daigle,
as always as we talk toindustry leaders about sells,
and today we have a very specialguest for you.
It is none other than RyanSullivan.
And Richie, tell me a littlebit about Ryan.
(00:20):
You used to work with Ryan,right.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I did.
I did Ryan.
He hired me when I was at Tide,so he was my boss and, yeah, so
Ryan is a poker player.
He's very strategic in nature,very thoughtful when it comes to
sales and, yeah, this is agreat episode.
I think his specialty isstartups and helping companies
(00:46):
scale and get the snowballrolling, so to speak, and you
see, all kinds of reallyinteresting stories come out of
the startup world.
And boy did he have someinteresting stories to share in
this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
He did this episode.
It did you know?
It's that startup sales processgoing from no processes or
procedures, or sometimes noteven a crm, to something that is
is grounded and scalable, anduh, it's it's interesting
journey as you go through thatand we relate it as much as we
can back to card playing,because it's all strategy and
(01:25):
strategy is strategy is strategy, whether um it's business
strategy, chord strategy, chessstrategy, um baseball pitching
strategy, it doesn't reallymatter, it's all a game of cabin
pounds it is and it's strategyin the midst of a mess is a lot
of times startup and poker forthat matter.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You can have a poker table where everyone's like 7-2
and I'm all in, what are yougoing to do about it?
And it's just chaos.
And there's a messiness and achaotic nature to the startup
world as well, where you have agreat product and you don't
understand why everybody isn'tbuying it immediately.
Great product and you don'tunderstand why everybody isn't
(02:08):
buying it immediately.
And you're trying to figure outhow to qualify people and how
to build pipelines and how tobuild a go-to-market strategy
and all these things.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And ICP is a big big thing for today too.
Building your ICP, or idealcustomer profile, and some of
the dangers of not doing that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And how to gently tell somebody that let's be all
things to all people and whythat's a bad idea Ninety nine
percent of the time.
You know it's it's.
There's a lot of interestingthings that come out of the
startup land as well as out ofpoker, and the stories Ryan had
to share were were, uh fantastic, and I think some of the, the
(02:47):
directions that he took I didn'tsee coming, you know so it was
definitely.
I think there's gonna be somecurveballs that uh catch people
off guard a little bit in thisone yeah, so and and let's uh,
you know shout out to oursponsor go pay hawk.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
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So go out, check outgopayhawkcom.
But with that said, without anyfurther ado, let's go straight
to the interview let's get intoit for our listeners who are
joining here.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Uh, we have ryan sullivan on today.
Uh, who has quite the theextensive career in sales, and
ryan, um, yeah, maybe a quickintroduction for people who
don't know you like, who are you, what do you do, and um, and we
can go from there yeah, so myname is ryan sullivan.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I live in boston, um, so I've been a founder twice.
Now I'm currently running aconsulting firm focused on early
stage supply chain techcompanies and trying to leverage
the experience I not only haveas a founder but as a three-time
head of sales to basicallydistill down what's great about
(04:30):
how founders sell, which oftenis not best practice oriented.
It's through domain expertiseand excitement and the fact that
people know they have the juiceto make things happen and
distilling that down intoprocesses for companies that are
hoping to scale up.
So I was responsible for SMBand mid-market sales at Cubix on
(04:54):
a 10x four-year run, and then Iwas responsible for sales and
go-to-market at Tive through a6x 18 months.
So just trying to sort of boilthat down and leverage that
framework to help companiesscale up in a time where funding
and true revenue is much moreimportant to investors than it
(05:18):
may have been previously, itreally is important right now,
especially in this environment.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
This VC funding is sales customers revenue.
It's much more important thanit was a couple of years ago.
I mean, it's always important,but now everyone's talking about
profitability, about growth aswell.
But getting customers in thedoor is not always about
(05:49):
building the tech.
It's about selling the tech now.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and a lot of the people I'm talking
to now.
Having been a founder and, Kevin, I know you have as well when I
thought about the venturelandscape over the last decade,
like after some sort of seedfunding, pre-seed funding, it's
like get to a million ARR for asoftware company and then you
(06:15):
think you should be able toraise a Series A, and what I'm
finding is that's not exactlytrue in today's market.
Some of it is because they wereoverfunded in a seed round and
some of it just is because,since there's been less funding,
there's a lot more options forinvestors.
(06:36):
That's really one half of whatthe business is focused on.
The other half is just I workedat Tive for two years and when
I got there they had a lot ofinfrastructure set up already,
so I didn't have to spend thefirst six months like trying to
build this baseline framework.
(06:56):
It existed and allowed me toget to selling and revenue
generation more quickly andrevenue generation more quickly.
So I think having some sort offractional help for companies in
the early stages make it sowhen you raise the big bag and
you get the Series A, you don'thire a super expensive head of
sales that takes six monthsbefore they're able to really
(07:20):
start getting to value adding,Adding value.
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, you can't really afford it in this adding
adding value, excuse me, yeah,you can't really afford it in
this market though this market,you have to be up and running
and and selling to to be able to, to raise, raise your next
round.
So I think investors arehyper-focused on on that part of
the business right True salesgrowth, true business
fundamentals, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, and I mean I think like the industry element
is just another complexity.
Like Dan Clark so the founder ofCubix, who really taught me
what I know about transportationas I was learning it, I'd be
like this does not make sense,that this is how it operates,
and he would always saytransportation is the oldest
industry in the world, saytransportation is the oldest
(08:07):
industry in the world and theprocesses were built by C
students, because in the 50s,60s, 70s there's no supply chain
degrees in college.
People come back from themilitary or they didn't go to
college and this is the paththat they chose.
So it's just, those are hiswords, not mine.
But you know it does add alevel of complexity where you
(08:30):
see people come in from otherindustries and it's hard to even
understand some of thefragmentation.
It's hard to understand that abill of the carrier versus
broker versus forwarder versusasset based broker, value
propositions and differences.
(08:51):
So you know, I think that thatunderstanding is something that
is really important from a go tomarket standpoint and I've seen
a lot of failed attempts of youknow more generalists trying to
come into the market and orinto the supply chain tech
market and be successful.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
It makes me think of you know.
Tim Ferriss put something onLinkedIn I think, two days ago.
I'm just going to read it.
He said refine rules andprocesses before adding people.
Using people to leverage arefined process multiplies
production, but using people asa solution to a poor process
(09:28):
multiplies problems.
And it kind of speaks to theimportance of really refining
and building good processes,whether that's a tech stack,
whether that's a market strategy, whether whatever it is like,
if you can nail that early on,then when you're adding people
you're adding leverage Versus ifyou're just trying to use
(09:51):
people as a band-aid, thingsjust get messier down the road,
Switching gears a little bit.
What is your favorite vacationspot?
If Ryan Sullivan is going to goon one last vacation, where is
he going?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I think I would go.
So I'm going to say France as awhole.
Paris is my favorite city, butI like the culture.
I was a history major.
The French Revolution is myfavorite war, so very interested
in that.
But both times I've been takingthe high speed train to nice as
(10:28):
well, um, which is right nextto the monte carlo, so go over,
get a little poker.
Beautiful beaches, incrediblefood and, you know, really just
appreciating the, the cultureand?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
and what's your favorite beverage, alcoholic or
non-alcoholic?
If you have one drink that'syour go-to.
What are you sipping on?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
From an alcoholic perspective, bentwater Sluice
Juice is a New England hazy IPA.
Then non-alcoholic I would sayGrafruit Perrier seltzer with
your pinky up.
I'm a volume drinker of seltzer, all right.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
This seems to be a trend.
We had Scott Leeson recentlyand he also talked about being
addicted to bubble water.
I also share this addiction.
Maybe this runs acrosssalespeople in general, but so
we're in the future.
You have hair again, but youalso have a lot of wrinkles.
And you're in France.
You've just taken a high-speedtrain down to Nice and they have
(11:42):
some kind of way on the train.
They had this slush juice justpouring, like everybody was
drinking it in the entire train.
They're walking all over theplace.
It was at the casino, at theMonte Carlo as well.
They had the grapefruit bubblewater.
Everybody's got their pinky out.
You as well.
Here you are and you're olderand you realize.
(12:04):
Well, and here you are andyou're older and you realize I
am completely done working.
I am retired, I've made mymoney, I'm enjoying retirement.
Now, if you look back on yourcareer, what's the last thing
that you sold?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
So I mean my hope would be that it's a company.
You know, I think for me,having been a part of two exits,
(12:40):
you know the idea, like thestage I usually come in is from
a building standpoint, right.
So that's like the optimization, many of the processes, the
hiring profiles, the systems,they, they don't exist.
So to me, the most rewardingpart, parts of what it is that I
do is, you know, helping tobuild a company that is so
exciting that another companywould see the value in
(13:03):
purchasing it, and then seeingthe trajectory and growth of
those that I've worked with.
I mean, I think for me, like mycoaching tree is like what is
most rewarding to me about youknow what it is that I do and
what I've done, so I would hopeit's a company.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And yeah, nice.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
What if?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
it wasn't a company.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
If it wasn't a company, then I would hope that
Maybe the company was the secondto last sell Company.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Well, so then it would be a complicated
multi-stakeholder enterprisesoftware deal.
I mean, I think from a salesstandpoint, the most enjoying
deals I've been a part of wereat Tive, a part of were at Tive,
(14:07):
and it really was just becauseyou know selling transportation
management systems so manydifferent departments are
involved.
You know it's complicated, it'smore on the expensive side, so
there's more of a need tojustify business value and you
know when it works.
It was the largest tangible ROIgenerator of any of the things
(14:29):
I've been a part of selling.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Good, good answer.
So if we go back in time, right, so this is your last sale, the
fictitious, what could be yourlast sale?
Right, and I love the idea ofselling a company, but if we
back up, what was the first salethat you've made?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah.
So I mean, like many people insales, I was a server and worked
in restaurants as a hustler andI also sold cell phones and so
I'm going to skip the serverside of things, I'm not going to
count that.
So my first sale I worked at anauthorized retailer at Verizon,
and my first sale was anupgrade of a family of three's
(15:19):
cell phones.
And I just remember when Istarted looking at this
leaderboard like how are peopledoing seven, eight, nine, ten
upgrades and new lines per day?
Like I just did my first one.
I'm all excited about it.
I upgraded, you know, threepeople's cell phone to the
iPhone 4, if that tells youanything about how fast Apple
(15:40):
innovates and how long ago thiswas.
But like that's really when Istarted to feel like I
understood sales because thisjob was at there was four
locations in the Hudson Valley,new York.
It was primarily in malls, itlike kiosks in malls and I just
(16:02):
that's where sort of the serverexperience came together with
the cell phone experience tounderstand that you can't just
be order taking, like if you arenot asking questions and you're
allowing someone to, you know,come to you as the expert and
tell you exactly what they need,especially in this time where
we didn't have the level ofaccess to information that we
(16:23):
may now that it was nearlyimpossible to be successful if
you weren't willing to ask thequestions and go deep enough to
make a recommendation, versus tojust follow what your prospect
is outlining.
So that was my first sale andthat was definitely a lesson
sort of that stuck with me overtime.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And it was a lesson of really doing discovery right,
of really probing down andbeing more of a consultative
cell than your mechanical cellof what typically you know.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
In a position like that you'd be expected to yeah,
well, I mean, there was a lot ofelements of it so like.
So, yes, that's true, but forexample, our compensation.
We got paid like nothing oniphone.
So we if you ever went into averizon store and they're trying
to talk you out of an ip to getthe Samsung Galaxy or whatever
it was Like, we got paidtremendously more on that.
(17:29):
So I was excited about my firstiPhone upgrade but it was like
maybe a fifth of what I wouldhave been paid should it have
been an Android device.
And you know, over time Istarted to realize that, like
people didn't know what it wasthey wanted.
They knew Apple was cool, theirfriends had iPhones, but there
(17:52):
was no real reason outside ofthat that that's what they were
coming in and saying they wantedto buy.
So you know, if I was able tounderstand not only their
technical footprint like what doyou want to do with it, as well
as what it is you like to dofrom a general enjoyment
standpoint, then I couldn't makea recommendation to buy
(18:12):
something that was not, you know, the flavor of the week or kind
of the thing that they've donea great job marketing to make
cool.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It's not all that dissimilar from when you're
working in a restaurant, though,right, because I mean I worked
in restaurants too, and bars,and I'm sure the people that
know what they want.
They come in and all you do isyou take their order and it's
really easy to read that personhey, they're a regular or
they're just straight and to thepoint.
There's a lot of people thatwalk in what do you recommend?
(18:43):
What's good here?
I don't like they're looking toyou for some sort of direction
on the menu or through a winelist or through, you know, just
building a whole diningexperience, and I think you
learn a lot in the restaurantworld of like how to ask some
basic discovery questions.
What do you like, like, what arethe things that excite you?
You can build an experience.
(19:05):
That skill set is massivelyimportant in sales.
It sounds like you just drugged.
I would imagine you would havebeen a good server in the
restaurant world with offeringgood recommendations, asking
some discovery questions andbuilding a good experience, and
you just drug, drug that skillset along with you yeah, yeah, I
(19:28):
mean, but I think, like I thinkthat's true, but I think in the
moment, at 22 years old, Iagree with you, it's very
obvious that sort of translation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
But at 22, like I don't know that, like it, it
took me time, I think, tosynthesize and sort of digest
that and I really don't thinkit's very different from the
world that I'm in now.
But you know, I love both andI'm biased because I did both of
(20:03):
them.
I love hiring people with thosebackgrounds because I think in
either scenario you really needto be able to hustle, you need
to understand uh personas andbuild rapport, and you know you
need to give uh an experiencethat you know you need to give
(20:24):
an experience that is painless,relatively painless, and
enjoyable for for the prospectand operate with urgency.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So I think that skill set translates to anything in
business development.
And go to market.
I agree with that too.
I went to tables for two, threeyears and you learn a lot of
skills, a lot of people skills,as you outlined.
It really is.
So.
We were talking about yourfirst sell at Verizon.
(20:55):
What was the sell you're mostproud of?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
So the sale that I'm most proud of it is also at
Verizon.
Now, this was an authorizedretailer.
This wasn't Verizon proper, itwas 100% commission rule and
they had these like four storesin malls that were in my
territory and so I'd been therefor about six months.
(21:23):
I had just started doing.
Well, somebody told me youcould sell B2B deals.
I was like why doesn't anyonedo it?
They're like well, it's 100%commission.
People come into the stores,you get inbound traffic.
I was like all right, well, I'mnot afraid to go knock on doors
(21:43):
.
So I sort of leveraged mycontacts and went and knocked on
doors and what?
This month it was February, inthe teens, 20 teens somewhere
they ran their first contestthey'd ever run and and it was,
if you, the highest revenue inthe company nationally got a
(22:07):
cruise with a plus one for aweek with all expenses paid.
So I basically kind ofaccidentally, went and sold the
largest deal in New York statehistory to limousine company,
which was about 500 new lines ofservice.
It wasn't the biggest in termsof revenue that I've done, but
(22:31):
it was the biggest in terms ofimpact on me and the relative
price point to what the averagedeal deal size was so it was
like four hundred thousanddollar deal.
So I won the cruise.
I brought my buddy and I met mywife on a bar crawl on the
second day of that cruise and hemet her best friend and I now
(22:55):
have two children.
We both have two children, uh,with our, with the wives that we
met on that cruise.
That was the biggest one for me.
If I count my bar bill fromthat cruise, maybe it was the
biggest deal ever.
Have you seen Titanic?
(23:16):
I was the bald jack but, I madeit.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
When you got in front of the ship was all over the
ship arms out all over it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yep what I'm hearing from this.
My takeaway is knock on doors,because you never know what's
going to be on the other sidewell, as far as I know, people
still weren't doing it, likeafter I had done that.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Uh, they did end the contest because myself and the
buddy that I brought that alsoworked there.
Uh, I saw the owner at a weddinga few months ago and he said
hey, thanks for teaching us thelesson that we need to give
different prizes for a contestbecause we had two of our top
performers leave basicallydirectly, uh, directly after
(24:06):
that.
But I think it's more testamentto the way things are done,
doesn't mean they are the waythings should be done, like why
didn't other people do that?
Was it because they couldn't?
No, it's because they likelywanted to get something
different out of the job.
They, you know, probably likethat they didn't have to
(24:28):
prospect.
You know that they could makemoney on inbound traffic.
But I think you know working atstartups in general and I know
you're good at this fromexperience, richie is we should
be questioning the current stateand how things are done, and
there's a time and a place tosort of get on board and execute
.
But there's also organizationsshould be happy to have people
(24:55):
questioning the current stateand trying to find ways to be
more successful within thoseparameters.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
For sure.
And that kind of gets back toour last episode with Amber
Diver talking about impostersyndrome and people who get
comfortable in their routine.
And when they get out of theroutine there is a level of
discomfort, whether it'slearning new skills, questioning
whether they're properlyequipped for whatever new
(25:24):
position they're in.
But that discomfort of breakingout of a routine is a sign of
growth and in your instance Imean this is growth.
I mean it was very evidentgrowth.
You got out of the normalroutine of everyone just sits in
a store and waits for inbound,decided, hey, can I knock on a
door?
We can go B2B, that's allowed,that's cool.
(25:46):
Why aren't we doing this?
And then you just attack thathead on.
So I think that's where growthhappens.
I think if you're just in aroutine, then your expectation
should be that things are goingto stay the same.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, and everyone has imposter syndrome, like.
I think one of the thingsthat's like helped me to build
confidence is my last threeroles have been working with
first time founders and it'seasy to look at a founder or CEO
and be like, well, they shouldknow this, you know, look how
high they are on the org chart,they should know all this stuff.
But for many people, every dayis the biggest team, the first
(26:29):
time they're dealing with achallenge, the first time
they're raising.
So once you understand thatnobody has all the answers and
everybody's sort of just tryingto do their best within what
they know, I think it does a lotfor confidence to say because
you don't feel like the onlyperson that feels like that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, in my mind there's the old, the old story
about the emperor that has noclothes.
I think sometimes you feel alittle embarrassed and exposed,
like I got no clothes on, youknow.
And then when the realizationoccurs to you that nobody has
any clothes on and we're all alittle embarrassed, then it
takes a little bit of the stingaway.
(27:09):
So it kind of goes back to whatyou're saying there.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So if we go on, we're all making it up as we go.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
What is the sale that you are least proud of or
possibly embarrassed about?
Was there ever a sale that youclosed and then you thought back
oh man, what have I done?
Has that ever occurred in yourcareer before?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I have a really good one that I didn't close.
That's very embarrassing.
I have a really good one that Ididn't close.
That's very embarrassing.
So, selling transportationmanagement systems, we had an
onsite in like Iowa or somewherethat, like you, couldn't really
get to, so we had to fly into amajor city and drive hours to
(27:59):
get there.
So we go to this meeting.
It was supposed to be like 3 to6 and it goes like 3 to 7.30
and we had their leadership teamin there.
It went so well.
So at the end we're like, hey,we're going to go grab a bite.
Do you want to come to the CEO?
And he's like, no, no, I can't.
This is the place you have togo to.
It's 20 minutes away.
(28:20):
So we go.
So what do salespeople do whenthey leave a customer meeting?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
They're going to blow out some steam, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I mean you have to drink.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
You talk about how the meeting went.
You know, and so I was an earlyon manager.
I was there with a salesengineer and implementation
person.
So we're sitting at this barand we're talking making fun of
like picking fun attransportation that you needed a
(28:53):
TMS because you know this guywas ancient or you know
somebody's funny hair.
And so I get up from the bar, Iwalk to the bathroom and as I
walk to the bathroom I see theback of hair that looks like the
(29:16):
hair of the person that was inthe meeting that gave us this
recommendation to go to thisplace and then declined us.
So I walked to the bathroom andhe's facing away from me and I
walk back and it's him and likeI try and make eye contact with
him, no luck.
So I never heard from thatprospect ever again.
(29:39):
And if you've, uh, richie, Idon't know that we've been on
any onsites together, but thosethat have been on my teams know
that I now have a very, very,very strict rule as to.
Usually you get out of theelevator and the sales guy's
like hey, how do you think thatwent?
I'm like, nope, we're not,let's get in the Uber and talk
(30:01):
about it.
So it was a strong reminderthat, like you know one, you're
not done.
You're not done selling untilyou get an order, and also that
like just a testament to why youknow the gossip, especially in
a public scenario, you know isfrowned upon.
(30:25):
So it was very, veryembarrassing.
I wrote handwritten letters.
I probably called them like 25times after that because it was
like we're going forward, likelet's well, this is great, let's
schedule the kickoff for nextweek.
It would have been in the top10% in deals the company had.
(30:51):
It was a horrible mistake, butall you can do is learn from
scenarios like that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Do you think he overheard you?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, in my opinion, there's no way based on don't?
In my opinion, there's no way.
Based on how the meeting went,there's no way that he didn't.
And the way the restaurant wasconstructed, like I mean, this
wall behind me is probably 10feet.
It the.
It was a long, skinnyrestaurant, so we were at a bar
(31:20):
like this and he basically hadto walk within 15 feet of us in
order to get to his table.
So yeah, based on how themeeting went, I don't think he
had to have hurt us.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Do you think it was on purpose?
Do you think that herecommended this restaurant,
then declined your invitation,but decided to go anyways?
Just to purposefully lend anear to what you all would be
saying, I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I don't know.
I've spent a lot of time in mylife thinking about why and how
this happened, because the wholething is very strange, like who
recommends a restaurant tosomebody, doesn't tell them
they're going there and thendeclines an invite and still
goes there.
So I don't know.
Maybe that's a smart way to dodue diligence that buyers should
(32:13):
start actively doing.
Like, the next time that I'mpart of buying software for a
company and we have an on-site,maybe I'll try the same tactic
to see if they talk about myshiny bald head or my wrinkly
forehead Was it a mullet?
It was like a mullet with abald top.
It was hysterically funny hair.
It was genuine.
It was like just the backmullet, but you still had the
(32:37):
shine on top, so it was like thebest of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
That is the elusive skirted eggshell and the various
types of mullets that are outthere.
There's a whole website, Ithink, that classifies different
ones.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
What did?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
you call it Skirted the skirted eggshell.
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I think I could grow one, you should.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
You should.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You'll never forget your mistake if you grow that
yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Well, it's like I feel like with a, as a bald guy,
you pay more attention topeople's hair than anybody else.
Like I'll be walking with mywife and we'll be walking in
boston and I'm like when we walkpast someone and she's like,
who are, are you, are youchecking that girl out?
I'm like no, did you see thehair on that guy?
So I do think that we're just,you know, as the Baldies, I
(33:28):
think we're more sensitive topeople's hair.
But if we don't have nicethings to say, we should
probably just keep them toourself.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
What was the funniest sale?
So was there a sale that thecircumstances were just
hilarious.
Couldn't believe what washappening.
Things happen in sales.
You never know what's going tohappen in sales.
It's always interesting, but isthere anything that sticks out
to you as particularly funnyexperience in sales?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, so early in my career I was selling email
marketing software and it wassuper high volume.
It was primarily inbound leadsbut they were in moderate
quality in the expectation wewere making.
(34:20):
Like 80 to 150 calls per day.
Somebody on my team gets A lotof these are one person
businesses If I have a cateringcompany or from a real estate
agent or whatever.
It wasn't uncommon for there tobe personal email addresses,
(34:41):
stuff like that.
So this person on my team callsan inbound lead and basically
says like hey, my name is blank.
I'm calling with this companyreaching out because you filled
out a form and you know I wantedto follow up with you and see
how I could help.
And the person must have beenwell, they were putting like
(35:08):
advertisements on Craigslistseeking intimate relationships
and they didn't listen to theperson.
All they heard is like youfilled something out on the
internet, how can I help?
And then this man went intoexcruciating detail as to what
(35:29):
he's looking for from anintimate partner and the
salesperson who, like, washysterical because he didn't
laugh.
He just kept asking questions,like, but not, they were like
business-y questions.
And the guy it was like fourminutes of this guy just giving
(35:51):
such horrific details and thenultimately like you can hear it
in his voice when he figures outthat he's not talking to who he
thought he was talking to andhung up.
So that was, that was thefunniest thing.
That I've been around andprobably listened to that call
(36:16):
hundreds of times and it used toactually be something that I
would even show, like at teammeetings.
For you know other people atother companies I would say,
like you know, here's the,here's the importance of
qualification.
You know you never understandwho is who is on the other end
(36:37):
of the phone and you don't.
You can guess what they'reinterested in, but until you ask
, you know you don't really know.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
And you don't know if you want to know, Did that rep
ever call him back and takeanother shot at trying to get
business, or was it like I'mdone?
I'm off the ride?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
I'm pretty sure it was done.
I don't remember, but I don'tknow that there was a big
business opportunity there.
I don't know what the rep wasinto, so I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I'm surprised that the guy didn't realize that he
wasn't talking to who he wastalking to and he's like oh my
bad, I thought you were somebodyelse and went on with my bad.
I thought you were somebodyelse and went, went on with the,
the sales call.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, I mean, it was just like At some point I think
he wasn't getting any of thecomments or responses that he
had been hoping to get or wouldhave been getting if the person
was actually calling in regardsto his Craigslist ad.
And yeah, I mean that would be.
Yeah, I don't know, I didn'tfigure it out, but I don't know
(37:50):
anybody else that's postingadvertisements on Craigslist to
find a partner.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Not anymore.
No no, not in these days.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's what?
The glory days of the internet.
I'm just kidding, not anymore,no no, not in these days.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
The glory day, that's what?
The glory days of the internet?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I'm just kidding, yeah 15 glory days, yes, 15
years ago.
Can you just assume thatanybody that's calling you
saying I saw what you submittedon the internet Like yeah, if
that's your first go-to of aresponse to a number that you
don't recognize on your phone,yeah, that's a different time
than today.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean Craigslist should have started
Tinder or Matchcom or something.
It's clear that they had a bigbusiness around that based on
that guy.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Best opportunities that based on, based on that guy
, yeah, this opportunities.
So so, ryan, um, here we go.
Two part question, actually.
So what cell or dill did youlearn the most from?
Would be one part of it.
And what poker hand did youlearn the most of from?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
So the sale that I learned the most from was a deal
to a visibility deal to aexercise bike manufacturer and
distributor, and at that pointit would have been a deal that
(39:35):
like doubles the company'srevenue, and I hadn't.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I think I might already know the manufacturer of
these bikes.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
You, you'd be somebody that you'd heard of Um
and we were working with acontact in innovation and we ran
all these tests.
They were totally qualifiedfrom a product fit and use case
standpoint.
But I didn't know what aninnovation role was.
(40:09):
Truly I didn't know.
I just saw that it was like aVP or C level title and I was
like they must have juice.
And so I went.
I mean, I talked about it inthe board meeting, I went
through like on paper,functionally there was no reason
why this deal wouldn't happen.
(40:31):
But not knowing what I didn'tknow I we didn't spend enough
time, sort of on the businesscase and it still haunts me as
like the deal that never wasthat like we basically got to
the end and you know it's goingto the ceo for approval and he
(40:55):
was basically like that'sridiculously expensive and we
didn't have alignment withstakeholders.
So you know, for me it it taughtme a lot about.
I need to be honest with myselfbecause and, rich, you may have
heard me say this I sayalcoholics don't get better
until they admit they're analcoholic.
(41:17):
Capital is and truly what theirpaperwork process and business
process is to procure services.
I need to at least be honestwith myself, because you know,
(41:43):
if I'm honest with myself then Ido a bunch of research or on.
You know this role, I know thequestions to go back to the
customer with.
So it was the most just glaringqualification issue that I've
had and I didn't do myself anyfavors by promoting it
internally that it wasdefinitely coming and it didn't.
(42:06):
And uh, you know it alwayshaunts you when you're like
there's no reason this shouldn'thave worked, other than I
didn't do the best job.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I think the deal that never was I like that.
I mean, I don't like it but Ithink it's something that a lot
of salespeople are working onand are hoping for.
In a lot of cases, that thedeal that never was.
I mean, you work in a deal, youthink you're making progress,
but it is going nowhere fastbecause you haven't done your
(42:40):
due diligence.
You don't know what's reallygoing on behind the scenes and
oftentimes it's nothing is goingon behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Right, I mean functionally.
Could every single company usea CRM?
Sure, could.
Could every company use, youknow, data on their target
accounts?
You know like you provide,kevin, sure.
But if you don't, if we don'tknow the implication, you know
(43:10):
why.
That is how it ranks from apriority standpoint, like, truly
, who can block it and who canget involved?
We're just setting ourselves upto spend a bunch of time and
cycles and ultimately not getthe result anybody's looking for
.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Well, the thing is those situations when you're
blindsided, right.
I think back to deals where Iknow this deal is shaky, I can
see the holes in it, and maybethere's not much I can do about
the holes other than just seethem.
Right, I'm going to try my bestto plug them as best I can.
But I know that the premise isshaky to start, or I may see
(43:45):
something that I don't thinkthis is going to work out at all
, but I got to follow it throughbecause it might.
You know, it's a, it's a HailMary, it's a seven, two offsuit
and I've stumbled into the turnand I got two pair and there's
razors all around with flushesand straights and everything in
front of me and it's like I kindof want to see the river, to
see if I boat up.
(44:06):
You know, but it's, you know,but it's.
You know that you're the oddsare against you.
But I think it's those momentswhen you're completely
blindsided because you thoughtthat all the holes were plugged,
you thought that your businesscase was rocked, you thought
that, um, you're on the path to,you're in the final stages,
(44:27):
you're at the five yard line,and then when the ball's ripped
out and it all falls apart.
You're like what just happenedand you don't even know like
it's.
It's almost traumatic when that, when that kind of dark mystery
hits you like that, but it'sonly after that.
I mean, I think there's a quotethat says life can only be
understood looking backwards,but it has to be lived going
(44:48):
forwards can only be understoodlooking backwards, but it has to
be lived going forwards.
But it's usually weeks or alittle bit afterwards when you
start looking back through itand like, oh my gosh, I missed
this, I didn't see this coming,there was this hole and you
start seeing all the gaps andputting the pieces together and
that learning the informationthat can come from that sort of
experience can be really richand meaningful.
Yeah, I was just trying tosummarize.
(45:11):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sensethat that's a something you
learned a lot from.
Hopefully, this poker, thispoker story, isn't similar where
it.
It was better.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
I mean that.
I don't have, I don't really, Idon't really.
Oh, I do.
So, as I know, kevin and Richieknow.
So I used to play poker for aliving for a period of time and
I had a hand once, and this iswhen I really didn't have much
(45:44):
money.
I was probably playing for $200or something and that $200
meant a lot to me and I hadpocket eights.
I raised preflop.
Somebody called flop was likeeight, six, two.
We get it all in on the flop.
The other guy has pocket twos,he hits a two on the river and
(46:11):
it was crushing, soul-crushingloss.
It's like less than 2% chancethat that should ever happen.
And I mean again, this actuallygoes back to exactly what you
were just saying, richie.
(46:33):
Like obviously I was not happythat that happened, but I think
after I did, I spent a lot oftime looking at like how could I
have avoided this?
And the end result was there'sno way cards come out
differently, like it's out of my, and all I did was put my money
in in a scenario that I had 98%likelihood to win and, um, you
(46:57):
know it, it really was just areminder of sort of process over
results, which you know.
I'm still going to make thatdecision every single time.
I'm still going to bedisciplined and I'm going to be
okay losing, so long as I'mfollowing a methodology that I
(47:17):
know in the long term, yields abetter result, and that you're
going to get unlucky sometimes,like there's variance in
everything we do, whether it'spoker or our relationships or
our jobs.
I could make a thousand coldcalls today and have nobody pick
up, and tomorrow I could make athousand cold calls and have um
(47:43):
, you know whatever 20 of peoplepick up and book meetings.
So I think, like the point I'mtrying to make is there's
variance within percentages thatis solved by how many times you
put yourself in thatopportunity.
Like, if you have a 33%conversion rate and you run
three deals, you might get none,but if you run 300 deals, it
(48:07):
should be a hundredish at theend.
So I think that was really thebig learning experience for me
in that end.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
And I think that's a very important learning
experience or lesson learned isthat you're talking about the
98% chance to win.
You got beat.
It's a bad beat.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
You got beat.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's a bad beat you kick yourself a little bit and
then you move on.
Right, because basically, 98out of 100 times you should win
that hand.
So play 98 more meetings anddon't worry about those those
sure things.
Right, because we, you know, Ithink we all experience this we
got this sure thing, it's comingin.
We're getting in front of ourbosses, our managers, say, hey,
(49:00):
this is a sure thing, and itjust fucking falls apart.
Right, I mean it.
Just it just disintegrates, yep.
And then if you're prospecting,if you're working that process,
you're going to draw a rivercard In an inside straight.
If we're going to go pokeranalogies right, something that
comes out of the blue falls inyour lap.
(49:21):
You don't expect it, it's goodluck.
But as long as you're doing theactivity and following a good
process that you're buildingover time, it all hits out of
the end.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Yep, yeah it's, I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So you shouldn't get too down, you shouldn't get too
up, just work the process andenjoy it.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, what can I control within this process?
And you know what would I dothe same or what would I do
differently.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
You know, you make those tweaks and you just get
better over time.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Yeah Well, and the other guy shouldn't have done
anything different either.
So, even though he was 2%, likethe odds that I have top set
and he has bottom set are sominuscule that, like so many
times, I'm going to be payinghim off with pocket aces or
pocket kings, or you know eight,six some crazy two pair or
something so like.
(50:17):
Again, just because he wasgetting it in at two percent
chance to win doesn't mean thathe should do anything different,
because the odds that I'mactually beating him are so low
that if we both had the hand toreplay a thousand times, we both
do the same thing every timeand it's actually so.
(50:40):
That's like kind of theinteresting thing about it is
even the guy that got lucky onthe river.
If you know, I have the hand, Ihave you don't call.
But most of the time I'm noteven going to have that and
you're just going to scoop thepot and you don't need to hit
quads on the river.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yep, yeah, you know, I mean three, twos.
I mean that's still a greathand, sure yeah, I'm calling you
.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
If I have three twos, if I have pocket twos, and I
spike a two and Sullivan'spushing, I'm going to say, ryan,
why are you letting me takeyour money like this?
And you're saying, richie, I'mtaking your money.
That's how it would go downjust about every single time.
It's a reminder of howoftentimes we think we're in
(51:31):
control of things that we're notcompletely in control of, and
that's a good reminder to lookback at what is 100% in your
control.
You know, and yeah, it's a goodaudit practice to run from time
to time to remind yourself whatis in your control and what
isn't.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yep, I tell you what what's in my control is.
I'm going to sit down and I'mgoing to watch Rounders again
tonight.
I haven't seen it in three orfour years.
I'm in the mood now.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Pay him, pays out the man his money.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
He beats me fair and square.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
I am going to go buy a box of Oreos and sit there and
watch Rounders.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Is there any other way to watch rounders?
I don't think so Without a boxof Oreos.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I'll invite you to an online poker game too.
So you can be.
You know you're multitaskingand uh, when, while you're in
the spirit, you can uh, you canfire a little bit and try and
hit quad twos on somebody.
You can fire a little bit andtry and hit quad twos on
somebody, I will.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
I'll just play the river all night.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
There you go, ryan.
It's been a pleasure, enjoyedthis conversation.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
And how can people find you?
So you can find me on LinkedInor on my website,
ratchetventurescom.
And no, I really enjoyed thisas well.
And lastly, I just want topromote.
This is a pack of baseballcards from the 2007 Lake Einhorn
Storm, and there may be aRichie Daigle rookie in here.
I have a few and waiting on theautographs.
(53:06):
If you want a Richie Daigleautograph, you also can get one
on eBay.
It's not mine, it's $14.
And waiting on the autographs.
If you want a Richie Daigleautograph, you also can get one
on eBay.
It's not mine, it's $14.
But thanks for having me on,guys.
This was really fun Always apleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Thanks, Ryan.
And welcome to episode six of the Last Sell.
I'm Kevin Hill, your co-host uphere, along with Richie Daigle,
as always as we talk toindustry leaders about sells,
and today we have a very specialguest for you.
It is none other than RyanSullivan.
And Richie, tell me a littlebit about Ryan.
(00:20):
You used to work with Ryan,right.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I did.
I did Ryan.
He hired me when I was at Tide,so he was my boss and, yeah, so
Ryan is a poker player.
He's very strategic in nature,very thoughtful when it comes to
sales and, yeah, this is agreat episode.
I think his specialty isstartups and helping companies
(00:46):
scale and get the snowballrolling, so to speak, and you
see, all kinds of reallyinteresting stories come out of
the startup world.
And boy did he have someinteresting stories to share in
this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
He did this episode.
It did you know?
It's that startup sales processgoing from no processes or
procedures, or sometimes noteven a crm, to something that is
is grounded and scalable, anduh, it's it's interesting
journey as you go through thatand we relate it as much as we
can back to card playing,because it's all strategy and
(01:25):
strategy is strategy is strategy, whether um it's business
strategy, chord strategy, chessstrategy, um baseball pitching
strategy, it doesn't reallymatter, it's all a game of cabin
pounds it is and it's strategyin the midst of a mess is a lot
of times startup and poker forthat matter.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You can have a poker table where everyone's like 7-2
and I'm all in, what are yougoing to do about it?
And it's just chaos.
And there's a messiness and achaotic nature to the startup
world as well, where you have agreat product and you don't
understand why everybody isn'tbuying it immediately.
Great product and you don'tunderstand why everybody isn't
(02:08):
buying it immediately.
And you're trying to figure outhow to qualify people and how
to build pipelines and how tobuild a go-to-market strategy
and all these things.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And ICP is a big big thing for today too.
Building your ICP, or idealcustomer profile, and some of
the dangers of not doing that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And how to gently tell somebody that let's be all
things to all people and whythat's a bad idea Ninety nine
percent of the time.
You know it's it's.
There's a lot of interestingthings that come out of the
startup land as well as out ofpoker, and the stories Ryan had
to share were were, uh fantastic, and I think some of the, the
(02:47):
directions that he took I didn'tsee coming, you know so it was
definitely.
I think there's gonna be somecurveballs that uh catch people
off guard a little bit in thisone yeah, so and and let's uh,
you know shout out to oursponsor go pay hawk.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So if you process credit card transactions, if you
have a need for that a lot oftimes, getting money in the door
today is fantastic.
So if you need invoices to bepaid, having a credit card
payment processing service iskey and essential.
And if you go to gopayhawkcom,you can catch all the deals and
(03:26):
benefits there.
I think they're offering a $250credit after 90 days for
getting set up with them.
So go out, check outgopayhawkcom.
But with that said, without anyfurther ado, let's go straight
to the interview let's get intoit for our listeners who are
joining here.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Uh, we have ryan sullivan on today.
Uh, who has quite the theextensive career in sales, and
ryan, um, yeah, maybe a quickintroduction for people who
don't know you like, who are you, what do you do, and um, and we
can go from there yeah, so myname is ryan sullivan.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I live in boston, um, so I've been a founder twice.
Now I'm currently running aconsulting firm focused on early
stage supply chain techcompanies and trying to leverage
the experience I not only haveas a founder but as a three-time
head of sales to basicallydistill down what's great about
(04:30):
how founders sell, which oftenis not best practice oriented.
It's through domain expertiseand excitement and the fact that
people know they have the juiceto make things happen and
distilling that down intoprocesses for companies that are
hoping to scale up.
So I was responsible for SMBand mid-market sales at Cubix on
(04:54):
a 10x four-year run, and then Iwas responsible for sales and
go-to-market at Tive through a6x 18 months.
So just trying to sort of boilthat down and leverage that
framework to help companiesscale up in a time where funding
and true revenue is much moreimportant to investors than it
(05:18):
may have been previously, itreally is important right now,
especially in this environment.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
This VC funding is sales customers revenue.
It's much more important thanit was a couple of years ago.
I mean, it's always important,but now everyone's talking about
profitability, about growth aswell.
But getting customers in thedoor is not always about
(05:49):
building the tech.
It's about selling the tech now.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and a lot of the people I'm talking
to now.
Having been a founder and, Kevin, I know you have as well when I
thought about the venturelandscape over the last decade,
like after some sort of seedfunding, pre-seed funding, it's
like get to a million ARR for asoftware company and then you
(06:15):
think you should be able toraise a Series A, and what I'm
finding is that's not exactlytrue in today's market.
Some of it is because they wereoverfunded in a seed round and
some of it just is because,since there's been less funding,
there's a lot more options forinvestors.
(06:36):
That's really one half of whatthe business is focused on.
The other half is just I workedat Tive for two years and when
I got there they had a lot ofinfrastructure set up already,
so I didn't have to spend thefirst six months like trying to
build this baseline framework.
(06:56):
It existed and allowed me toget to selling and revenue
generation more quickly andrevenue generation more quickly.
So I think having some sort offractional help for companies in
the early stages make it sowhen you raise the big bag and
you get the Series A, you don'thire a super expensive head of
sales that takes six monthsbefore they're able to really
(07:20):
start getting to value adding,Adding value.
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, you can't really afford it in this adding
adding value, excuse me, yeah,you can't really afford it in
this market though this market,you have to be up and running
and and selling to to be able to, to raise, raise your next
round.
So I think investors arehyper-focused on on that part of
the business right True salesgrowth, true business
fundamentals, I suppose.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, and I mean I think like the industry element
is just another complexity.
Like Dan Clark so the founder ofCubix, who really taught me
what I know about transportationas I was learning it, I'd be
like this does not make sense,that this is how it operates,
and he would always saytransportation is the oldest
industry in the world, saytransportation is the oldest
(08:07):
industry in the world and theprocesses were built by C
students, because in the 50s,60s, 70s there's no supply chain
degrees in college.
People come back from themilitary or they didn't go to
college and this is the paththat they chose.
So it's just, those are hiswords, not mine.
But you know it does add alevel of complexity where you
(08:30):
see people come in from otherindustries and it's hard to even
understand some of thefragmentation.
It's hard to understand that abill of the carrier versus
broker versus forwarder versusasset based broker, value
propositions and differences.
(08:51):
So you know, I think that thatunderstanding is something that
is really important from a go tomarket standpoint and I've seen
a lot of failed attempts of youknow more generalists trying to
come into the market and orinto the supply chain tech
market and be successful.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
It makes me think of you know.
Tim Ferriss put something onLinkedIn I think, two days ago.
I'm just going to read it.
He said refine rules andprocesses before adding people.
Using people to leverage arefined process multiplies
production, but using people asa solution to a poor process
(09:28):
multiplies problems.
And it kind of speaks to theimportance of really refining
and building good processes,whether that's a tech stack,
whether that's a market strategy, whether whatever it is like,
if you can nail that early on,then when you're adding people
you're adding leverage Versus ifyou're just trying to use
(09:51):
people as a band-aid, thingsjust get messier down the road,
Switching gears a little bit.
What is your favorite vacationspot?
If Ryan Sullivan is going to goon one last vacation, where is
he going?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I think I would go.
So I'm going to say France as awhole.
Paris is my favorite city, butI like the culture.
I was a history major.
The French Revolution is myfavorite war, so very interested
in that.
But both times I've been takingthe high speed train to nice as
(10:28):
well, um, which is right nextto the monte carlo, so go over,
get a little poker.
Beautiful beaches, incrediblefood and, you know, really just
appreciating the, the cultureand?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
and what's your favorite beverage, alcoholic or
non-alcoholic?
If you have one drink that'syour go-to.
What are you sipping on?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
From an alcoholic perspective, bentwater Sluice
Juice is a New England hazy IPA.
Then non-alcoholic I would sayGrafruit Perrier seltzer with
your pinky up.
I'm a volume drinker of seltzer, all right.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
This seems to be a trend.
We had Scott Leeson recentlyand he also talked about being
addicted to bubble water.
I also share this addiction.
Maybe this runs acrosssalespeople in general, but so
we're in the future.
You have hair again, but youalso have a lot of wrinkles.
And you're in France.
You've just taken a high-speedtrain down to Nice and they have
(11:42):
some kind of way on the train.
They had this slush juice justpouring, like everybody was
drinking it in the entire train.
They're walking all over theplace.
It was at the casino, at theMonte Carlo as well.
They had the grapefruit bubblewater.
Everybody's got their pinky out.
You as well.
Here you are and you're olderand you realize.
(12:04):
Well, and here you are andyou're older and you realize I
am completely done working.
I am retired, I've made mymoney, I'm enjoying retirement.
Now, if you look back on yourcareer, what's the last thing
that you sold?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
So I mean my hope would be that it's a company.
You know, I think for me,having been a part of two exits,
(12:40):
you know the idea, like thestage I usually come in is from
a building standpoint, right.
So that's like the optimization, many of the processes, the
hiring profiles, the systems,they, they don't exist.
So to me, the most rewardingpart, parts of what it is that I
do is, you know, helping tobuild a company that is so
exciting that another companywould see the value in
(13:03):
purchasing it, and then seeingthe trajectory and growth of
those that I've worked with.
I mean, I think for me, like mycoaching tree is like what is
most rewarding to me about youknow what it is that I do and
what I've done, so I would hopeit's a company.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And yeah, nice.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
What if?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
it wasn't a company.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
If it wasn't a company, then I would hope that
Maybe the company was the secondto last sell Company.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Well, so then it would be a complicated
multi-stakeholder enterprisesoftware deal.
I mean, I think from a salesstandpoint, the most enjoying
deals I've been a part of wereat Tive, a part of were at Tive,
(14:07):
and it really was just becauseyou know selling transportation
management systems so manydifferent departments are
involved.
You know it's complicated, it'smore on the expensive side, so
there's more of a need tojustify business value and you
know when it works.
It was the largest tangible ROIgenerator of any of the things
(14:29):
I've been a part of selling.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Good, good answer.
So if we go back in time, right, so this is your last sale, the
fictitious, what could be yourlast sale?
Right, and I love the idea ofselling a company, but if we
back up, what was the first salethat you've made?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah.
So I mean, like many people insales, I was a server and worked
in restaurants as a hustler andI also sold cell phones and so
I'm going to skip the serverside of things, I'm not going to
count that.
So my first sale I worked at anauthorized retailer at Verizon,
and my first sale was anupgrade of a family of three's
(15:19):
cell phones.
And I just remember when Istarted looking at this
leaderboard like how are peopledoing seven, eight, nine, ten
upgrades and new lines per day?
Like I just did my first one.
I'm all excited about it.
I upgraded, you know, threepeople's cell phone to the
iPhone 4, if that tells youanything about how fast Apple
(15:40):
innovates and how long ago thiswas.
But like that's really when Istarted to feel like I
understood sales because thisjob was at there was four
locations in the Hudson Valley,new York.
It was primarily in malls, itlike kiosks in malls and I just
(16:02):
that's where sort of the serverexperience came together with
the cell phone experience tounderstand that you can't just
be order taking, like if you arenot asking questions and you're
allowing someone to, you know,come to you as the expert and
tell you exactly what they need,especially in this time where
we didn't have the level ofaccess to information that we
(16:23):
may now that it was nearlyimpossible to be successful if
you weren't willing to ask thequestions and go deep enough to
make a recommendation, versus tojust follow what your prospect
is outlining.
So that was my first sale andthat was definitely a lesson
sort of that stuck with me overtime.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And it was a lesson of really doing discovery right,
of really probing down andbeing more of a consultative
cell than your mechanical cellof what typically you know.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
In a position like that you'd be expected to yeah,
well, I mean, there was a lot ofelements of it so like.
So, yes, that's true, but forexample, our compensation.
We got paid like nothing oniphone.
So we if you ever went into averizon store and they're trying
to talk you out of an ip to getthe Samsung Galaxy or whatever
it was Like, we got paidtremendously more on that.
(17:29):
So I was excited about my firstiPhone upgrade but it was like
maybe a fifth of what I wouldhave been paid should it have
been an Android device.
And you know, over time Istarted to realize that, like
people didn't know what it wasthey wanted.
They knew Apple was cool, theirfriends had iPhones, but there
(17:52):
was no real reason outside ofthat that that's what they were
coming in and saying they wantedto buy.
So you know, if I was able tounderstand not only their
technical footprint like what doyou want to do with it, as well
as what it is you like to dofrom a general enjoyment
standpoint, then I couldn't makea recommendation to buy
(18:12):
something that was not, you know, the flavor of the week or kind
of the thing that they've donea great job marketing to make
cool.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It's not all that dissimilar from when you're
working in a restaurant, though,right, because I mean I worked
in restaurants too, and bars,and I'm sure the people that
know what they want.
They come in and all you do isyou take their order and it's
really easy to read that personhey, they're a regular or
they're just straight and to thepoint.
There's a lot of people thatwalk in what do you recommend?
(18:43):
What's good here?
I don't like they're looking toyou for some sort of direction
on the menu or through a winelist or through, you know, just
building a whole diningexperience, and I think you
learn a lot in the restaurantworld of like how to ask some
basic discovery questions.
What do you like, like, what arethe things that excite you?
You can build an experience.
(19:05):
That skill set is massivelyimportant in sales.
It sounds like you just drugged.
I would imagine you would havebeen a good server in the
restaurant world with offeringgood recommendations, asking
some discovery questions andbuilding a good experience, and
you just drug, drug that skillset along with you yeah, yeah, I
(19:28):
mean, but I think, like I thinkthat's true, but I think in the
moment, at 22 years old, Iagree with you, it's very
obvious that sort of translation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
But at 22, like I don't know that, like it, it
took me time, I think, tosynthesize and sort of digest
that and I really don't thinkit's very different from the
world that I'm in now.
But you know, I love both andI'm biased because I did both of
(20:03):
them.
I love hiring people with thosebackgrounds because I think in
either scenario you really needto be able to hustle, you need
to understand uh personas andbuild rapport, and you know you
need to give uh an experiencethat you know you need to give
(20:24):
an experience that is painless,relatively painless, and
enjoyable for for the prospectand operate with urgency.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So I think that skill set translates to anything in
business development.
And go to market.
I agree with that too.
I went to tables for two, threeyears and you learn a lot of
skills, a lot of people skills,as you outlined.
It really is.
So.
We were talking about yourfirst sell at Verizon.
(20:55):
What was the sell you're mostproud of?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
So the sale that I'm most proud of it is also at
Verizon.
Now, this was an authorizedretailer.
This wasn't Verizon proper, itwas 100% commission rule and
they had these like four storesin malls that were in my
territory and so I'd been therefor about six months.
(21:23):
I had just started doing.
Well, somebody told me youcould sell B2B deals.
I was like why doesn't anyonedo it?
They're like well, it's 100%commission.
People come into the stores,you get inbound traffic.
I was like all right, well, I'mnot afraid to go knock on doors
(21:43):
.
So I sort of leveraged mycontacts and went and knocked on
doors and what?
This month it was February, inthe teens, 20 teens somewhere
they ran their first contestthey'd ever run and and it was,
if you, the highest revenue inthe company nationally got a
(22:07):
cruise with a plus one for aweek with all expenses paid.
So I basically kind ofaccidentally, went and sold the
largest deal in New York statehistory to limousine company,
which was about 500 new lines ofservice.
It wasn't the biggest in termsof revenue that I've done, but
(22:31):
it was the biggest in terms ofimpact on me and the relative
price point to what the averagedeal deal size was so it was
like four hundred thousanddollar deal.
So I won the cruise.
I brought my buddy and I met mywife on a bar crawl on the
second day of that cruise and hemet her best friend and I now
(22:55):
have two children.
We both have two children, uh,with our, with the wives that we
met on that cruise.
That was the biggest one for me.
If I count my bar bill fromthat cruise, maybe it was the
biggest deal ever.
Have you seen Titanic?
(23:16):
I was the bald jack but, I madeit.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
When you got in front of the ship was all over the
ship arms out all over it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yep what I'm hearing from this.
My takeaway is knock on doors,because you never know what's
going to be on the other sidewell, as far as I know, people
still weren't doing it, likeafter I had done that.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Uh, they did end the contest because myself and the
buddy that I brought that alsoworked there.
Uh, I saw the owner at a weddinga few months ago and he said
hey, thanks for teaching us thelesson that we need to give
different prizes for a contestbecause we had two of our top
performers leave basicallydirectly, uh, directly after
(24:06):
that.
But I think it's more testamentto the way things are done,
doesn't mean they are the waythings should be done, like why
didn't other people do that?
Was it because they couldn't?
No, it's because they likelywanted to get something
different out of the job.
They, you know, probably likethat they didn't have to
(24:28):
prospect.
You know that they could makemoney on inbound traffic.
But I think you know working atstartups in general and I know
you're good at this fromexperience, richie is we should
be questioning the current stateand how things are done, and
there's a time and a place tosort of get on board and execute
.
But there's also organizationsshould be happy to have people
(24:55):
questioning the current stateand trying to find ways to be
more successful within thoseparameters.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
For sure.
And that kind of gets back toour last episode with Amber
Diver talking about impostersyndrome and people who get
comfortable in their routine.
And when they get out of theroutine there is a level of
discomfort, whether it'slearning new skills, questioning
whether they're properlyequipped for whatever new
(25:24):
position they're in.
But that discomfort of breakingout of a routine is a sign of
growth and in your instance Imean this is growth.
I mean it was very evidentgrowth.
You got out of the normalroutine of everyone just sits in
a store and waits for inbound,decided, hey, can I knock on a
door?
We can go B2B, that's allowed,that's cool.
(25:46):
Why aren't we doing this?
And then you just attack thathead on.
So I think that's where growthhappens.
I think if you're just in aroutine, then your expectation
should be that things are goingto stay the same.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, and everyone has imposter syndrome, like.
I think one of the thingsthat's like helped me to build
confidence is my last threeroles have been working with
first time founders and it'seasy to look at a founder or CEO
and be like, well, they shouldknow this, you know, look how
high they are on the org chart,they should know all this stuff.
But for many people, every dayis the biggest team, the first
(26:29):
time they're dealing with achallenge, the first time
they're raising.
So once you understand thatnobody has all the answers and
everybody's sort of just tryingto do their best within what
they know, I think it does a lotfor confidence to say because
you don't feel like the onlyperson that feels like that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, in my mind there's the old, the old story
about the emperor that has noclothes.
I think sometimes you feel alittle embarrassed and exposed,
like I got no clothes on, youknow.
And then when the realizationoccurs to you that nobody has
any clothes on and we're all alittle embarrassed, then it
takes a little bit of the stingaway.
(27:09):
So it kind of goes back to whatyou're saying there.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So if we go on, we're all making it up as we go.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
What is the sale that you are least proud of or
possibly embarrassed about?
Was there ever a sale that youclosed and then you thought back
oh man, what have I done?
Has that ever occurred in yourcareer before?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I have a really good one that I didn't close.
That's very embarrassing.
I have a really good one that Ididn't close.
That's very embarrassing.
So, selling transportationmanagement systems, we had an
onsite in like Iowa or somewherethat, like you, couldn't really
get to, so we had to fly into amajor city and drive hours to
(27:59):
get there.
So we go to this meeting.
It was supposed to be like 3 to6 and it goes like 3 to 7.30
and we had their leadership teamin there.
It went so well.
So at the end we're like, hey,we're going to go grab a bite.
Do you want to come to the CEO?
And he's like, no, no, I can't.
This is the place you have togo to.
It's 20 minutes away.
(28:20):
So we go.
So what do salespeople do whenthey leave a customer meeting?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
They're going to blow out some steam, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I mean you have to drink.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
You talk about how the meeting went.
You know, and so I was an earlyon manager.
I was there with a salesengineer and implementation
person.
So we're sitting at this barand we're talking making fun of
like picking fun attransportation that you needed a
(28:53):
TMS because you know this guywas ancient or you know
somebody's funny hair.
And so I get up from the bar, Iwalk to the bathroom and as I
walk to the bathroom I see theback of hair that looks like the
(29:16):
hair of the person that was inthe meeting that gave us this
recommendation to go to thisplace and then declined us.
So I walked to the bathroom andhe's facing away from me and I
walk back and it's him and likeI try and make eye contact with
him, no luck.
So I never heard from thatprospect ever again.
(29:39):
And if you've, uh, richie, Idon't know that we've been on
any onsites together, but thosethat have been on my teams know
that I now have a very, very,very strict rule as to.
Usually you get out of theelevator and the sales guy's
like hey, how do you think thatwent?
I'm like, nope, we're not,let's get in the Uber and talk
(30:01):
about it.
So it was a strong reminderthat, like you know one, you're
not done.
You're not done selling untilyou get an order, and also that
like just a testament to why youknow the gossip, especially in
a public scenario, you know isfrowned upon.
(30:25):
So it was very, veryembarrassing.
I wrote handwritten letters.
I probably called them like 25times after that because it was
like we're going forward, likelet's well, this is great, let's
schedule the kickoff for nextweek.
It would have been in the top10% in deals the company had.
(30:51):
It was a horrible mistake, butall you can do is learn from
scenarios like that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Do you think he overheard you?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, in my opinion, there's no way based on don't?
In my opinion, there's no way.
Based on how the meeting went,there's no way that he didn't.
And the way the restaurant wasconstructed, like I mean, this
wall behind me is probably 10feet.
It the.
It was a long, skinnyrestaurant, so we were at a bar
(31:20):
like this and he basically hadto walk within 15 feet of us in
order to get to his table.
So yeah, based on how themeeting went, I don't think he
had to have hurt us.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Do you think it was on purpose?
Do you think that herecommended this restaurant,
then declined your invitation,but decided to go anyways?
Just to purposefully lend anear to what you all would be
saying, I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I don't know.
I've spent a lot of time in mylife thinking about why and how
this happened, because the wholething is very strange, like who
recommends a restaurant tosomebody, doesn't tell them
they're going there and thendeclines an invite and still
goes there.
So I don't know.
Maybe that's a smart way to dodue diligence that buyers should
(32:13):
start actively doing.
Like, the next time that I'mpart of buying software for a
company and we have an on-site,maybe I'll try the same tactic
to see if they talk about myshiny bald head or my wrinkly
forehead Was it a mullet?
It was like a mullet with abald top.
It was hysterically funny hair.
It was genuine.
It was like just the backmullet, but you still had the
(32:37):
shine on top, so it was like thebest of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
That is the elusive skirted eggshell and the various
types of mullets that are outthere.
There's a whole website, Ithink, that classifies different
ones.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
What did?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
you call it Skirted the skirted eggshell.
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I think I could grow one, you should.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
You should.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You'll never forget your mistake if you grow that
yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Well, it's like I feel like with a, as a bald guy,
you pay more attention topeople's hair than anybody else.
Like I'll be walking with mywife and we'll be walking in
boston and I'm like when we walkpast someone and she's like,
who are, are you, are youchecking that girl out?
I'm like no, did you see thehair on that guy?
So I do think that we're just,you know, as the Baldies, I
(33:28):
think we're more sensitive topeople's hair.
But if we don't have nicethings to say, we should
probably just keep them toourself.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
What was the funniest sale?
So was there a sale that thecircumstances were just
hilarious.
Couldn't believe what washappening.
Things happen in sales.
You never know what's going tohappen in sales.
It's always interesting, but isthere anything that sticks out
to you as particularly funnyexperience in sales?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, so early in my career I was selling email
marketing software and it wassuper high volume.
It was primarily inbound leadsbut they were in moderate
quality in the expectation wewere making.
(34:20):
Like 80 to 150 calls per day.
Somebody on my team gets A lotof these are one person
businesses If I have a cateringcompany or from a real estate
agent or whatever.
It wasn't uncommon for there tobe personal email addresses,
(34:41):
stuff like that.
So this person on my team callsan inbound lead and basically
says like hey, my name is blank.
I'm calling with this companyreaching out because you filled
out a form and you know I wantedto follow up with you and see
how I could help.
And the person must have beenwell, they were putting like
(35:08):
advertisements on Craigslistseeking intimate relationships
and they didn't listen to theperson.
All they heard is like youfilled something out on the
internet, how can I help?
And then this man went intoexcruciating detail as to what
(35:29):
he's looking for from anintimate partner and the
salesperson who, like, washysterical because he didn't
laugh.
He just kept asking questions,like, but not, they were like
business-y questions.
And the guy it was like fourminutes of this guy just giving
(35:51):
such horrific details and thenultimately like you can hear it
in his voice when he figures outthat he's not talking to who he
thought he was talking to andhung up.
So that was, that was thefunniest thing.
That I've been around andprobably listened to that call
(36:16):
hundreds of times and it used toactually be something that I
would even show, like at teammeetings.
For you know other people atother companies I would say,
like you know, here's the,here's the importance of
qualification.
You know you never understandwho is who is on the other end
(36:37):
of the phone and you don't.
You can guess what they'reinterested in, but until you ask
, you know you don't really know.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
And you don't know if you want to know, Did that rep
ever call him back and takeanother shot at trying to get
business, or was it like I'mdone?
I'm off the ride?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
I'm pretty sure it was done.
I don't remember, but I don'tknow that there was a big
business opportunity there.
I don't know what the rep wasinto, so I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I'm surprised that the guy didn't realize that he
wasn't talking to who he wastalking to and he's like oh my
bad, I thought you were somebodyelse and went on with my bad.
I thought you were somebodyelse and went, went on with the,
the sales call.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, I mean, it was just like At some point I think
he wasn't getting any of thecomments or responses that he
had been hoping to get or wouldhave been getting if the person
was actually calling in regardsto his Craigslist ad.
And yeah, I mean that would be.
Yeah, I don't know, I didn'tfigure it out, but I don't know
(37:50):
anybody else that's postingadvertisements on Craigslist to
find a partner.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Not anymore.
No no, not in these days.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's what?
The glory days of the internet.
I'm just kidding, not anymore,no no, not in these days.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
The glory day, that's what?
The glory days of the internet?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I'm just kidding, yeah 15 glory days, yes, 15
years ago.
Can you just assume thatanybody that's calling you
saying I saw what you submittedon the internet Like yeah, if
that's your first go-to of aresponse to a number that you
don't recognize on your phone,yeah, that's a different time
than today.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean Craigslist should have started
Tinder or Matchcom or something.
It's clear that they had a bigbusiness around that based on
that guy.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Best opportunities that based on, based on that guy
, yeah, this opportunities.
So so, ryan, um, here we go.
Two part question, actually.
So what cell or dill did youlearn the most from?
Would be one part of it.
And what poker hand did youlearn the most of from?
Speaker 3 (39:10):
So the sale that I learned the most from was a deal
to a visibility deal to aexercise bike manufacturer and
distributor, and at that pointit would have been a deal that
(39:35):
like doubles the company'srevenue, and I hadn't.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I think I might already know the manufacturer of
these bikes.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
You, you'd be somebody that you'd heard of Um
and we were working with acontact in innovation and we ran
all these tests.
They were totally qualifiedfrom a product fit and use case
standpoint.
But I didn't know what aninnovation role was.
(40:09):
Truly I didn't know.
I just saw that it was like aVP or C level title and I was
like they must have juice.
And so I went.
I mean, I talked about it inthe board meeting, I went
through like on paper,functionally there was no reason
why this deal wouldn't happen.
(40:31):
But not knowing what I didn'tknow I we didn't spend enough
time, sort of on the businesscase and it still haunts me as
like the deal that never wasthat like we basically got to
the end and you know it's goingto the ceo for approval and he
(40:55):
was basically like that'sridiculously expensive and we
didn't have alignment withstakeholders.
So you know, for me it it taughtme a lot about.
I need to be honest with myselfbecause and, rich, you may have
heard me say this I sayalcoholics don't get better
until they admit they're analcoholic.
(41:17):
Capital is and truly what theirpaperwork process and business
process is to procure services.
I need to at least be honestwith myself, because you know,
(41:43):
if I'm honest with myself then Ido a bunch of research or on.
You know this role, I know thequestions to go back to the
customer with.
So it was the most just glaringqualification issue that I've
had and I didn't do myself anyfavors by promoting it
internally that it wasdefinitely coming and it didn't.
(42:06):
And uh, you know it alwayshaunts you when you're like
there's no reason this shouldn'thave worked, other than I
didn't do the best job.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I think the deal that never was I like that.
I mean, I don't like it but Ithink it's something that a lot
of salespeople are working onand are hoping for.
In a lot of cases, that thedeal that never was.
I mean, you work in a deal, youthink you're making progress,
but it is going nowhere fastbecause you haven't done your
(42:40):
due diligence.
You don't know what's reallygoing on behind the scenes and
oftentimes it's nothing is goingon behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Right, I mean functionally.
Could every single company usea CRM?
Sure, could.
Could every company use, youknow, data on their target
accounts?
You know like you provide,kevin, sure.
But if you don't, if we don'tknow the implication, you know
(43:10):
why.
That is how it ranks from apriority standpoint, like, truly
, who can block it and who canget involved?
We're just setting ourselves upto spend a bunch of time and
cycles and ultimately not getthe result anybody's looking for
.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Well, the thing is those situations when you're
blindsided, right.
I think back to deals where Iknow this deal is shaky, I can
see the holes in it, and maybethere's not much I can do about
the holes other than just seethem.
Right, I'm going to try my bestto plug them as best I can.
But I know that the premise isshaky to start, or I may see
(43:45):
something that I don't thinkthis is going to work out at all
, but I got to follow it throughbecause it might.
You know, it's a, it's a HailMary, it's a seven, two offsuit
and I've stumbled into the turnand I got two pair and there's
razors all around with flushesand straights and everything in
front of me and it's like I kindof want to see the river, to
see if I boat up.
(44:06):
You know, but it's, you know,but it's.
You know that you're the oddsare against you.
But I think it's those momentswhen you're completely
blindsided because you thoughtthat all the holes were plugged,
you thought that your businesscase was rocked, you thought
that, um, you're on the path to,you're in the final stages,
(44:27):
you're at the five yard line,and then when the ball's ripped
out and it all falls apart.
You're like what just happenedand you don't even know like
it's.
It's almost traumatic when that, when that kind of dark mystery
hits you like that, but it'sonly after that.
I mean, I think there's a quotethat says life can only be
understood looking backwards,but it has to be lived going
(44:48):
forwards can only be understoodlooking backwards, but it has to
be lived going forwards.
But it's usually weeks or alittle bit afterwards when you
start looking back through itand like, oh my gosh, I missed
this, I didn't see this coming,there was this hole and you
start seeing all the gaps andputting the pieces together and
that learning the informationthat can come from that sort of
experience can be really richand meaningful.
Yeah, I was just trying tosummarize.
(45:11):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sensethat that's a something you
learned a lot from.
Hopefully, this poker, thispoker story, isn't similar where
it.
It was better.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
I mean that.
I don't have, I don't really, Idon't really.
Oh, I do.
So, as I know, kevin and Richieknow.
So I used to play poker for aliving for a period of time and
I had a hand once, and this iswhen I really didn't have much
(45:44):
money.
I was probably playing for $200or something and that $200
meant a lot to me and I hadpocket eights.
I raised preflop.
Somebody called flop was likeeight, six, two.
We get it all in on the flop.
The other guy has pocket twos,he hits a two on the river and
(46:11):
it was crushing, soul-crushingloss.
It's like less than 2% chancethat that should ever happen.
And I mean again, this actuallygoes back to exactly what you
were just saying, richie.
(46:33):
Like obviously I was not happythat that happened, but I think
after I did, I spent a lot oftime looking at like how could I
have avoided this?
And the end result was there'sno way cards come out
differently, like it's out of my, and all I did was put my money
in in a scenario that I had 98%likelihood to win and, um, you
(46:57):
know it, it really was just areminder of sort of process over
results, which you know.
I'm still going to make thatdecision every single time.
I'm still going to bedisciplined and I'm going to be
okay losing, so long as I'mfollowing a methodology that I
(47:17):
know in the long term, yields abetter result, and that you're
going to get unlucky sometimes,like there's variance in
everything we do, whether it'spoker or our relationships or
our jobs.
I could make a thousand coldcalls today and have nobody pick
up, and tomorrow I could make athousand cold calls and have um
(47:43):
, you know whatever 20 of peoplepick up and book meetings.
So I think, like the point I'mtrying to make is there's
variance within percentages thatis solved by how many times you
put yourself in thatopportunity.
Like, if you have a 33%conversion rate and you run
three deals, you might get none,but if you run 300 deals, it
(48:07):
should be a hundredish at theend.
So I think that was really thebig learning experience for me
in that end.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
And I think that's a very important learning
experience or lesson learned isthat you're talking about the
98% chance to win.
You got beat.
It's a bad beat.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
You got beat.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's a bad beat you kick yourself a little bit and
then you move on.
Right, because basically, 98out of 100 times you should win
that hand.
So play 98 more meetings anddon't worry about those those
sure things.
Right, because we, you know, Ithink we all experience this we
got this sure thing, it's comingin.
We're getting in front of ourbosses, our managers, say, hey,
(49:00):
this is a sure thing, and itjust fucking falls apart.
Right, I mean it.
Just it just disintegrates, yep.
And then if you're prospecting,if you're working that process,
you're going to draw a rivercard In an inside straight.
If we're going to go pokeranalogies right, something that
comes out of the blue falls inyour lap.
(49:21):
You don't expect it, it's goodluck.
But as long as you're doing theactivity and following a good
process that you're buildingover time, it all hits out of
the end.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Yep, yeah it's, I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So you shouldn't get too down, you shouldn't get too
up, just work the process andenjoy it.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Yeah, what can I control within this process?
And you know what would I dothe same or what would I do
differently.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
You know, you make those tweaks and you just get
better over time.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Yeah Well, and the other guy shouldn't have done
anything different either.
So, even though he was 2%, likethe odds that I have top set
and he has bottom set are sominuscule that, like so many
times, I'm going to be payinghim off with pocket aces or
pocket kings, or you know eight,six some crazy two pair or
something so like.
(50:17):
Again, just because he wasgetting it in at two percent
chance to win doesn't mean thathe should do anything different,
because the odds that I'mactually beating him are so low
that if we both had the hand toreplay a thousand times, we both
do the same thing every timeand it's actually so.
(50:40):
That's like kind of theinteresting thing about it is
even the guy that got lucky onthe river.
If you know, I have the hand, Ihave you don't call.
But most of the time I'm noteven going to have that and
you're just going to scoop thepot and you don't need to hit
quads on the river.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yep, yeah, you know, I mean three, twos.
I mean that's still a greathand, sure yeah, I'm calling you
.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
If I have three twos, if I have pocket twos, and I
spike a two and Sullivan'spushing, I'm going to say, ryan,
why are you letting me takeyour money like this?
And you're saying, richie, I'mtaking your money.
That's how it would go downjust about every single time.
It's a reminder of howoftentimes we think we're in
(51:31):
control of things that we're notcompletely in control of, and
that's a good reminder to lookback at what is 100% in your
control.
You know, and yeah, it's a goodaudit practice to run from time
to time to remind yourself whatis in your control and what
isn't.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yep, I tell you what what's in my control is.
I'm going to sit down and I'mgoing to watch Rounders again
tonight.
I haven't seen it in three orfour years.
I'm in the mood now.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Pay him, pays out the man his money.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
He beats me fair and square.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
I am going to go buy a box of Oreos and sit there and
watch Rounders.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Is there any other way to watch rounders?
I don't think so Without a boxof Oreos.
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I'll invite you to an online poker game too.
So you can be.
You know you're multitaskingand uh, when, while you're in
the spirit, you can uh, you canfire a little bit and try and
hit quad twos on somebody.
You can fire a little bit andtry and hit quad twos on
somebody, I will.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
I'll just play the river all night.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
There you go, ryan.
It's been a pleasure, enjoyedthis conversation.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
And how can people find you?
So you can find me on LinkedInor on my website,
ratchetventurescom.
And no, I really enjoyed thisas well.
And lastly, I just want topromote.
This is a pack of baseballcards from the 2007 Lake Einhorn
Storm, and there may be aRichie Daigle rookie in here.
I have a few and waiting on theautographs.
(53:06):
If you want a Richie Daigleautograph, you also can get one
on eBay.
It's not mine, it's $14.
And waiting on the autographs.
If you want a Richie Daigleautograph, you also can get one
on eBay.
It's not mine, it's $14.
But thanks for having me on,guys.
This was really fun Always apleasure.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Thanks, Ryan.
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