August 14, 2025 • 65 mins
Lee Dockstader takes us on a fascinating journey through the commercialization of 3D printing in healthcare, drawing from his decades of experience with industry giants like HP and 3D Systems. Dockstader is one of the major pioneers of the 3D printing revolution that helped transform medical applications today.
The conversation takes us behind the curtain of industry-defining moments few people know about. One is the story of Invisalign. Today it’s a household name, but in its early years Align Technology struggled to survive. Orthodontists resisted the innovation, and for nearly a decade the company failed to turn a profit. It was only when dentists began to embrace the technology that it found its footing. We explore why some healthcare segments adopt 3D printing rapidly while others move at glacial pace, and the fascinating business dynamics that determine success beyond just having superior technology.
Dockstader then goes on to give his account of the hearing aid industry's rapid transformation. Unlike dental's decades-long evolution, hearing aid manufacturing converted entirely to 3D printing within just five years in the early 2000s. The perfect storm of new scanning technology, specialized resins, and advanced printers led to dramatic improvements: reducing remake rates from 20% to 5% and transforming a craft that took a year to master into a skill learnable in days. With five companies controlling 80% of the market, once one adopted the technology, competitors had no choice but follow.
Looking toward the future, Dockstader shares his surprise that 3D printed eyewear hasn't yet achieved mainstream adoption despite its obvious benefits. With conventional frames offering limited sizing options despite high tooling costs, 3D printing could provide perfectly fitted frames for diverse facial structures at competitive prices.
As he looks back on his career, Lee Dockstader leaves listeners with a clear message. Persistence pays off, and finding the right champions within an industry can be the key to turning groundbreaking ideas into world-changing realities.
Stay tuned for show notes with relevant links and resources.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does it take to shape entire industries?
Today, on the Lattice podcast,we're joined by Lee Dockstader,
a true pioneer of 3D printingwho has had decades-long career
with industry giants like 3DSystems and HP.
Lee has helped changeeverything from dental aligners
to custom hearing aids and evensurgical guides.
(00:22):
In this episode, lee shareshard-won lessons,
commercialization secrets andpredictions for where mass
personalization is headed next.
There's just too much to fitinto a 60-minute-long episode
with Lee and I certainly hope toinvite him back again.
Now.
Join us and learn about thereal story behind 3D printing's
(00:45):
most significant milestones inhealthcare.
The content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only anddoes not constitute medical,
legal or financial advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed by the host and guests
are their own and do notnecessarily reflect those of
(01:06):
their employers, affiliates orany associated organizations.
Hello everyone, welcome to theLattice Podcast episode number
90.
Today, our guest is LeeDockstader, a veteran of the 3D
printing industry and also hasvery long track records with two
major 3D printing companies.
(01:26):
One is 3D Systems, the otherone is HP.
Lee, thanks for joining ustoday.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You know, every time I have a meeting with you, I
always learn a ton of stuffbecause you see so much.
I mean you recently claimedquote unquote retired, but
honestly I don't think you are.
I think you're still extremelypassionate about the industry
and where it's heading to.
So tell me what you're, youknow.
Okay, for those people who arenew probably are not familiar
(01:55):
with Lee, but for those peoplewho have already been in 3D
printing industry for a while,there's no way you can miss
Lee's presence everywhere, andespecially when it comes to
healthcare 3D printing, I thinkyour presence is everywhere.
But why don't you tell us aboutyour origin story?
You know how you got started,decades ago, and then from there
(02:17):
.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay.
So originally I wanted to be apilot.
So I applied to the Air ForceAcademy and ended up going to
West Point.
But my eyes weren't bad incollege and so I couldn't be a
pilot.
So I thought, okay, I'll be anengineer and make my own plane.
So I finished up at UCLA andbecause I took drafting, because
(02:42):
I wanted to be an architect, Igot a job at a TRW
Semiconductors laying out hybridamplifiers because drafting and
layout and then I got involvedwith video there and then ended
up moving down to San Diegoafter I graduated from UCLA to
work for a cable TV box companyand I got hired there because I
(03:11):
had the video experience and Ibuilt my own hacker box to break
the cable TV security.
So that got me a job there.
That was pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And then I worked with a lot of HP test equipment
at the time and ended up workingas a field engineer for them
for quite a few years.
And because of my draftingexperience I got recruited to
the CAD CAM when HP got into CADCAM, first in 2D and then 3D,
so I was an electrical engineerbut I had more mechanical
experience than all the otherelectrical engineers.
(03:41):
So I did cad for a while.
They sent me out to asia in 89um, right during tenement square
actually and I was out therefor three years and came back
and then one of the littlesoftware companies that was
doing research for hp came upwith the first windows 95
(04:02):
basedbased CAD package and theyshowed it to me on a 486 laptop.
And I'm just going oh man darn,I'm going to have to find
something else to do becausewe're selling CAD workstations
for $50,000 and $20,000 forsoftware.
And here are these guys, showedon Windows 95 and selling it
(04:22):
for $500.
So I went and joined them.
Be the chance to get rich andfamous.
We got the famous parts for alittle while.
What's the name?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
of the company.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
It was 3DI.
It then became IronCab.
It got bought by Autodesk andthen spun off.
Oh okay, I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I would be able to Google this.
To be honest, I mean none ofthis stuff.
I definitely was Googling youbefore I do this podcast, but I
don't think I saw any of thisinformation.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, trispectives, it was very, very cool Windows
95 package.
And then they got bought andthen 3D Systems says hey, you
know CAD and you know Asia,because HP had sent me out to
Asia for three years.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And so they said do you want to go back?
And I go well, yeah, pay forthe apartment, the kids' school
fees, and sure we'll go back.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Asia is nice, asia is nice.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, If somebody else pays the rent.
That was a tough part in HongKong.
Right it was in Hong Kong.
Right, it was an expensive city, yeah, so I worked out there
for another seven years with 3DSystems and came back and ended
up taking over thestereolithography business and
launched the current productline that's there today.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So let's rewind a little bit.
I did not know that you startedyour career in HP as a salesman
.
It's not even his job.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Let's make it his job and send him out to Asia and
have him do it out there.
That's how it came up.
But I actually went out therefor an interview and I came back
and I said thank you, but no,thank you, they go.
Why?
I said well, so I had a longlist of reasons, spreadsheet,
waiting factors, all that stuff.
And my boss, my old boss, saidhey, you're going to go and I go
(06:30):
.
No, look waiting factors.
And says no, because you'regoing to go and I go.
Why?
It's because you're, you're 29years old.
You regret it the rest of yourlife If you don't.
And that got me and I all thethings I was afraid of happening
happened.
Oh, like what?
Shut the division down?
All sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Okay, I see business related, not because of the
place.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
No, no.
I met my gorgeous, tall blondepartner in a law firm.
Well, that's a win.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I would say that's a huge win.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
In Hong Kong.
Yeah, she kind of stood out.
We got married up there andthen when we got the offer to go
back, she goes sure, let's go.
So we went back for anotherseven years.
So I was out there for 10 years.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
That's amazing.
We definitely need to unpackthat at some.
You know, right now China is oneverybody's mind and every
single sentence.
So now going back to the 3dsystems experience, is it true
that Chuck Chuck Hall actuallyhired you directly?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Chuck and Art Sims.
I don't know if you rememberthat name.
He was the CEO.
Rich Valenson was the presidentInterviewed with those three
guys, super, super team.
Art was a management veteranfrom GE and I think he was on
the board of SDRC at the time.
Valenson was the head of thedisk drive R&D division at IBM,
(07:59):
had a couple thousand engineersand Art met him at some
conference and kind ofchallenged him can he take his
knowledge of high, high volume,low mix and do low volume, high
mix?
And he goes sure and anyway,hired him as president to come
on board and he's that teamhired me and I met max gerrits
(08:20):
have you heard that name he has?
He has a service bureau on theservice bureau around Santa
Barbara.
But he gave me a 3D cube whichI still have to this day.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You know you gave me a lot of 3D printing stuff.
Actually, it's still on myshelf.
Every time I see you, you giveme something.
So yeah, that's a perk of thejob.
You know, when you started at3D System, were you a business
development.
What was your role back then?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
They went out to be the managing director, so I
started up the operation.
So my wife started the companyin Hong Kong.
We set up a KK company in Japan, offices in Malaysia and Taiwan
and recruited distributors andwe did the maintenance ourselves
, except in Japan, and thenstarted our own company in Japan
(09:08):
.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Under 3D Systems.
Right yeah yeah.
Our own.
Okay, yeah, great how I met youand what I understand what you
do is that these big companiesalways hire you to literally
create new markets because, yes,3d printing is amazing.
Look at all the amazing stuffbehind you.
I'm mesmerized on a daily basiswith all the research paper
(09:33):
that's output.
But commercialization is reallythe pain point, and you've had
decades of experience basicallytrying to create new markets and
how to commercialize theseamazing technologies.
Do you want to unpack thesemoves, maybe some milestones of
(09:56):
what you know?
Back then, decades ago, whatare some of the major milestones
you did in terms of helpingwith commercialization?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So I mean, back then 3D CAD was pretty new, right?
So if you're going to sell 3Dprinting to somebody, they got
to have 3D CAD.
You can't print 3D stuffwithout 3D data.
So that was so my experienceout there in CAD, CAM and
knowing the companies that had3D CAD because, like I said,
when I went back in 97, it wasstill relatively new $50,000 a
(10:28):
seat and all that kind of stuffand so I just focused on the
people that had cab and therewere very few service bureaus.
And so that was the next thingI worked on is getting companies
to start service bureaus.
And then the other thing at thetime, thomas Pang, the guy who
invented epoxy resin, launchedit, but it wasn't humidity
(10:50):
resistant and so, oh my goodness, the parts would go soft in a
couple of days out there, 90%humidity, 90 degrees, and then
3D Systems.
Sl5510 was the first good,humidity-resistant, accurate
epoxy resin and that reallystarted things going.
(11:14):
But yeah, we focus onautomotive companies that have
hundreds, if not thousands, ofseats at CAD, and then service
bureaus and then the toybusiness and the tooling
business.
So of course the toy businessin South China was huge and they
all had CAD.
So it was you focus on thoseguys.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So it's almost like you see some gaps in an
ecosystem and this is where youcan find opportunities to close
the gap and develop verticals.
And then those are industrialverticals which I'm fascinated
with but know very little aboutI want to talk about.
(12:00):
Let's talk about the medicaland dental space that you're
also equally very passionateabout and saw a lot of
revolution throughout the years,you know.
One is the dental revolution,the other one is hearing aid
revolution.
I was not even aware of 3Dprinting back then, but you
(12:21):
lived through those milestones,really systemic shifts, tell us
about.
You know what was it likeliving through?
Let's say first the um, thedental revolution with Align
technology.
I mean, it doesn't happen justovernight, does it?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
no, it took Align 10 years to be profitable and it
and it hit 100 million dollarsin revenue 10 years.
And it was hard work becausethey had to create a business
and at first they went afterorthodontists and they went
public and actually I boughtsome of their pre-IPO stock and
(12:55):
held it for 10 years and doubledmy money A few years later.
Well, 10 years after that, itwas instead of $20, it was $700.
Could have held on to that one alittle bit longer, but double
your money, that's not bad, butyeah, so with them they
approached orthodontists tocarry their stuff, but it was I
(13:18):
think at the time it was about$1,200 for the treatment to the
orthodontist and theorthodontist goes no, no, no, if
I'm going to charge $5,000 forbraces, for bands and brackets
and wires, it'll only cost themmaybe $100.
And so their profit was actuallygoing to go down.
So a line, when IPO, spent alot of the IPO money on
(13:42):
advertising to create demand andthey sent them all to
orthodontists and the patientswould come in and the
orthodontist would say, yeah,yeah, that line stuff is really
great for a lot of people, butyou, my friend, you need braces.
And it almost put them underand it wasn't until they
switched and went after dentistsand the dentist goes wait a
minute, I just take animpression and send it in and I
(14:05):
can make 5 000 bucks instead ofa half hour or 45 minutes
drilling and doing a filling.
He's yeah, sign me up.
So, um, their fortunes really,really changed when they went
after the the dental market andthen they focused on
international, outside thecountry and they have
manufacturing now, I think inPoland and China, as well as
(14:27):
their main thing down in Mexico.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
How did you get into this whole storyline?
Did Align reach out to 3DSystems to figure out a
manufacturing process?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
They did at the very beginning.
Actually, the first processthey had um, they put the, they
take the impressions, they pourplaster models and they put
plaster models in a small panand they would pour black epoxy
around it and then they wouldmill off a layer, take a
photograph of it and they wouldstack the layers on top of each
(15:05):
other.
And that's how they did thesegmentation to create the 3D
models to start with.
And then they had a verycomplicated software algorithm
that moved the teeth and theycornered the market of those CNC
scanning systems.
And then they said this isn'tsustainable and 3d systems have
(15:28):
just launched a large format,high-powered solid state laser
system, as opposed to the onesthey had before were argon gas,
I mean gas tube lasers.
They had a whopping 200milliwatt and it took a 100 amp
three-phase circuit to run it.
What year was that?
It has more than that power now.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Is that 1990s?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, 90s, mid-90s.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Okay.
Yeah that's like the wholenational laboratory, actually no
it was late 90s, I'm sorry,okay, 98, 99.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
And that was just when Align was starting.
So they came up with theaccurate software, a solid state
machine, and um, there was.
This is public information now.
But they, align, came to 3DSystems and says, hey, can you
help us with this?
And um, they tried doing itthemselves for a year or so on
(16:24):
the, on the sly, on the quiet,and they couldn't.
They couldn't figure out how tomake it faster and better and
more accurate.
And 3d said, hey, give us acouple million bucks in
non-recurring engineering, buy50 machines up front and we'll
make it happen.
And they worked on it for a fewmonths and I think the, the
(16:47):
throughput and the accuracy wasalmost order magnitude better, I
mean.
And then it, it just keptgetting better and better after
that.
I mean it's.
I mean they make a millioncustom parts a day, a day.
Yeah, can you imagine thelogistics of trying to keep
track of all the sets of teethand then the thermoformed
(17:10):
aligners, the barcoding, and youhave to get it in the right bag
, in the right box with theright shipping label and the
right billing information.
I mean it's just mind bogglingthe logistics that make all that
stuff happen, so are theyinternalized.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
They're internalized, that manufacturing process,
even today.
Oh it's all internal.
Yeah, they've never outsourcedso I mean that's a long marriage
.
The question is, this is goingto be a marriage that's happily
ever after um so far it has.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Um.
They did buy that europeancompany that had the hot, yeah,
cubicure, yeah, right.
So I've listened to some of theinterviews with the vp of r.
D is the same guy that I workwith.
He's been there 25 years, Superguy, yeah.
But they bought those guys andit'd probably first be grinding
(18:08):
guards or stuff like that, Causeit took them a decade to choose
a new resin, a new thermalforming material, Cause it's got
to have very predictable ummechanical properties for to
work with their software.
And so with 3d printed ones, Imean you ever cut the, the, the
(18:34):
security plastic packagingaround certain stuff?
I mean it's hard to cut, I meanthat stuff is tough and the
aligner stuff is even tougher.
So for them to get thosemechanical properties in a resin
is incredibly hard.
So they might first start withnight guards or the retainers,
(18:55):
ones that don't actually movethe teeth but just keep them in
place, and in that case they canmake areas thicker that they
need more mechanical strength on.
You can't really do that withthermoforming, but you can do it
with some fancy CAD and theirown, their own resin.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat they do.
I mean there's companies thathave claimed to have a liner
(19:16):
material 3D printed, but ithasn't been popular at all.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's always interesting when I talk about
news articles with you aboutsomething that's you know just
came out, and you always justkind of temper my enthusiasm
down a little bit.
This is like nah, jenny, it'snot going to work that well.
As it says yeah, I'vedefinitely seen a lot of new
stuff, like even 3D printedveneers that's coming out, but
(19:49):
then I got tampered down alittle bit that it may not work
for a lot of people.
It's just much harder than itlooks, than our news article,
which is, you know I.
I would say that's part of thehype cycle.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Still, um, so they're getting there.
Dentures has made a lot ofprogress.
I worked on dentures at hp forquite a while.
Um, there are some denturematerials.
3d systems has just launched anew printer that can do
multi-material um, but theaesthetics and the fit and
(20:22):
mechanical properties man,that's.
That's hard all three.
Um, I think a 3d printed basewith cemented in um denture
teeth like dense flies.
I got a factory tour theirtheir denture teeth division and
they've worked on that like for10 or 20 years and those teeth
(20:43):
look fantastic.
They're super tough.
They last a long time.
You can't get that kind oftranslucency, shade gradation
and stuff very easily in 3Dprinting.
3d systems with theirmulti-material new dental
printers getting there, but theythey don't look like handmade
(21:04):
dentures just yet.
But I think a denture base withum out of the box denture teeth
that fit in a custom base, Ithink that would be a good
in-between step.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I mean I think that step one.
It seems like we just need tofind a replacement with whatever
that's comparable to whateverthat we have existing, and then
the next step would be hopefullybe cheaper and more accessible
to a lot of people cheaper andmore accessible to a lot of
people.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, the cheaper.
I mean.
It's interesting.
Dentures are the mostlabor-intensive and least
profitable device in the dentalmarket.
At least you know regularremovable dentures,
implant-retained dentures,they're called all-on-four, so
(21:57):
you put four implants and holdthe denture down.
That's $18,000 to $20,000 anarch.
Wow, and those a lot are 3Dprinted for temps and then CNC
machined for the finals.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, I think a couple of years ago, when we
hosted a global summit somewherein San Francisco, there was a
dentist and I think she is hername is Valerie, I forgot her
last name and she is a denturequeen and she taught me a lot
about the SAS statistics of howmany Americans don't have teeth,
(22:33):
especially elderly, and theyjust live on without teeth for
decades.
And and also the reimbursementof danger is extremely low, like
you said is the return oninvestment is just not
justifiable for a lot of labsand dental practitioners.
So, yeah, I hope that spadescan really revolutionize, but
(22:56):
we're talking about, you know,almost 10 years since this is
last on my radar.
I don't know when we'reactually going to see a real
change.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
It's getting close.
Densply's got one of theirresins that's quite popular, I
think.
It's running on carbon and alsoregular DLP machines.
It's running on carbon and alsoregular DLP machines and that's
.
I've heard that one's madepretty good advances in
aesthetics and wear and it'scoming from Dent Supply.
So that's, they know whatthey're doing.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
The other thing I was thinking about when you know,
when I was thinking about dentalmarket is it is considered
technically a luxury marketbecause in the old days, by the
way, there were a lot ofEgyptian dentists I don't know
if you noticed even in America,because they invented dentistry
thousands of years ago and youcan see, mummies had dental
(23:54):
works, but only the rich mummies, not the average Joe.
So it is somewhat in the luxury, premium item category rather
than necessity, like medical.
So my question is in terms ofcommercialization for dental,
it's a little bit different game, right?
I'm talking about it because Iencounter a lot of dental
startups and my question is isthis going to return anything
(24:18):
substantial?
Is this going to be a reallyhard journey, long hard journey.
You know, align Technology Idid some research is one of the
most successful companies thatuses 3D printing as a technology
.
3d technology also probably oneof the most successful dental
space companies.
(24:39):
We're talking about anintersection of two extremely
rare events.
The stat doesn't look very goodfor current existing early
stage startups.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
on that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
They're a billion dollars a quarter and 70 gross
margins yeah and they've got 800million in the bank or
something like that.
I don't know, it's their,they've done well and they
continue to do well, theycontinue to grow and they're
they just launched um palatableexpanders you know, those are
(25:16):
the kids with the pre-teens.
They don't have room in their um, in their upper.
They have to get um a palatableexpander and make room, and
about 25 of all kids that havebraces need a palatable expander
and it's they used.
Well, they're currently still.
The retainers with theexpansion screws in the middle
(25:38):
are like torture devices.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So Align just launched a direct print palette
expander and you change it outevery night, so it's a very
small change and it's not nearlyas painful and they can move
more things around the way theywant, as opposed to just a
general expansion.
It's pretty cool and that's thefirst new product they had and
(26:07):
it's the first 3D printedproduct they've had and I
understand it's going overreally well.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Well, here's a question.
Okay, if there is a startupdoing just that, what is the
success possibility for thatstartup to actually get
somewhere?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It kind of depends.
The problem is access to market.
Any of these little startupsdon't have access to the dental
market.
Dental labs isn't as hard.
Say, there's like five or 6,000labs in the US and you can hire
half a dozen people and coverthe labs fairly well, and the
labs are consolidating.
So you really only have totackle the top 20 and get a good
(26:50):
portion of the market.
But dentists is another problem.
You're not going to get pastthe front desk.
It's you know, even, uh, anynon-dental company, unless
you're dense, ply or line or 3mor somebody that they know and
they need.
You're not getting past thefront office manager and so, and
(27:14):
to get that, then you have tohire one of the big guys to do
it Henry Schein or one of thoseguys to distribute to you, and
they want 30%, 40% off the top.
It's the cost of customeracquisition is the killer, and
that's what kind of did in SmileDirect Club.
They got up to $600 million inrevenue very quickly, very
(27:40):
successful.
And then COVID hit and theirmarket just plummeted and it's
like, well, what, what?
What happened was everybody wasseeing themselves on zoom.
Yeah, like the way their teethlooked, and they didn't say, hey
, send me my do-it-myselfimpression kit.
They went to their dentist andtheir dentist said yes, I can
fix your teeth.
And so Align just boomed forthat and SmileDirect just
(28:05):
crashed.
It's a shame.
It was an awesome businessproposition, but
direct-to-consumer is tough.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I'm learning about business every day and I
think compliance for the linersis a huge problem.
So, without the human component, that's one reason why probably
SmileDirect didn't work as well.
That's one of my hypotheses isthat people just aren't really
(28:38):
good during self-care and theyneed somebody there to supervise
.
The other interesting thingthat you mentioned about that
you need the big guys to beupfront, to be a front
salesperson.
I just heard this expressionthe other day.
I'm trying to see if thistheory actually works.
If there's any kind ofconsumer-based product, you're
(29:00):
essentially some sort ofadvertising company.
So that is exactly what youjust said.
That's something I didn't know,but now it's actually fitting
into that theory.
It's consumer-based products.
You just have to.
Eventually, if you get bigger,you become an advertising
machine.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, smile Direct Club.
They did social mediaadvertising and during COVID
social media advertisingquadrupled in expense and it
just killed them.
They were spending so much foreach new customer that it wasn't
sustainable and they justcouldn't recover.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, it is pretty sad and also, I believe at the
time Smile Direct Club partneredwith HP also right, I'm fairly
familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yes, yeah, it was funny.
The sales guy I worked with at3D Systems and he got an
appointment to go visit themright at the very beginning and
he says, hey, lee, you know thisspace, can you come with me?
And they bought two machines onthe first visit.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Bought two 3D Systems machines.
No, no, Two HP machines.
Oh, okay, Wait.
So the 3D System guy wanted youto go to the meeting and you
sold them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That's one 3D Systems guy who was working for HP.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Oh, okay, that makes more sense.
I was like who would do that?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, that's all I mean.
My grandmother was a dentistthat did active retainers.
My father had a big orthodonticlab.
I was involved with Align for20 years.
I knew that that market andactually a line had offered to
(30:44):
move their head of manufacturingto singapore and actually
insisted that he go.
And he says no, I'm not going,and he and he quit and um, smile
, direct club hired him in aminute and it was so, so funny
and I took him off to the sidewhen I first met him and I go um
, does anybody know that we kneweach other for 20 years?
(31:07):
He goes Nope, I go.
Okay, so I can't share any ofthat knowledge and you can't
share any of that knowledge.
So we're going to have to playit straight.
And it was so funny I'd have toask him all these questions
that he knew I knew all theanswers to, but we had to.
We had to ask it and he had toanswer the questions, so we
wouldn't share any confidentialinformation.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Wait, so wait.
Sorry, I missed that.
Who is this that we're talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I don't want to mention his name, but he worked
for somebody.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I was like suddenly in the storyline there is a
figure with no names.
Okay, yeah, no, I mean, this isactually a very small industry
and sometimes we have to beabsolutely discreet.
So, yeah, no, I get it.
But yeah, no, it sounds likeyou have a family history of
dental industry, so you live andbreathe the business.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You're definitely the perfect guy to really grow the
vertical.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I mean we're skipping around in our agenda here.
But since we're on here ondental, what do you see the
future for dental industry froma 3d printing perspective or
without 3d printing?
Where do you see it's going?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So it's kind of two ways.
You've got big centralmanufacturing with big, fast
machines and there's the bigdental labs.
Use that a little bit but mostof them use desktop machines at
the end of a bench lab managerand he'll have 10 people on his
(32:35):
bench and often they'll have onedesktop dlp printer at the end
of that bench that that teamuses.
They don't do.
They don't necessarily docentral manufacturing, unless
it's it's like a carbon with thedense pie resin in it.
You know that's an expensive,fast machine machine.
(32:56):
Most are still desktop machines.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So that means, formlabs is still.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
No Formlabs.
Their laser systems can'treally compete with the, at
least in speed with the modernDLPs.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I see Okay, and what do you think the business
strategy like for dentists andfor the dental startups that we
are?
I sent you a couple ofcompanies that you took a look.
Where do you think things aregoing to be?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's hard for a startup unless they partner with
one of the dental distributors.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Like Sirona Densply yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Henry Schein, you know the distributors, yeah, or
the big companies that havedirect access with their own
sales force.
So if you're a startup and youwant to get into the dental
business, it's hard Becausethere's I don't know 10 at least
10 dops that are going afterdental but what about, like um
(34:08):
alternatives?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
what about dental software?
Uh, managing, you know, this is, you know, may not, may or may
not involve 3D printing, butjust workflow.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
So there's like three .
There's Serona, 3shape andExoCAD.
If you're not one of thosethree, life is difficult Because
they own the market now andanybody who's got a 3D printer
or a CNC machine has one ofthose three.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
There are some clones , and I believe they took
decades to even get here.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes, 3shape started with the audio, the hearing aids
Right, and then moved over todental.
Exocad was kind of agovernment-funded research
company in Germany and it gotbought by a line and Dentsply
Sirona has done their own for 20years with the CERAC system and
(35:09):
that was CNC machining but nowthey're using it for driving 3D
printers as well.
But the CERAC system owned thedigital CAD business for 10, 15
years before they really had anycompetition, and that was the
point in the office.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, it seems like everybody who is big in the
space already had the foresightof owning the entire ecosystem.
Basically, yeah, they're prettysmart.
That's all I can say.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, and the implant drill guides was owned by
Materialize and Dentsply.
They had the patents on it andthey had a monopoly for a decade
or two.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I wonder how many people are actually using it,
though.
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, drill guides is another.
So it's pretty interesting inthe dental space.
Uh, a few years ago I saw somestatistic where dentists were
placing more implants than oralsurgeons and they crossed that
line.
Must have been five or sixyears ago.
Yeah, because Because, beforeyou know, oral surgeons do I
(36:19):
don't know umpteen a day andthey except for complex cases,
they rarely used guides becauseguides cost four or five hundred
bucks out of a $2,000, $2,500treatment plan, and so they're
not going to pay five hundredbucks for stuff that they do,
you know, several times a day,but you have a dentist doing it
two or three times a month, nottwo or three times before coffee
(36:42):
in the morning.
You want that guy using a guide,because if you mess up the hole
that's bad, and so the peopledoing their own surgical guide
is now fairly common.
Yes, or they'll just do it atdental lab and have it and it's
the.
It's a fraction of the pricenow.
(37:03):
It used to be four or 500 bucks, I don't know how much they are
now.
I doubt they're more than ahundred.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, you know I'm, I think, as a big picture,
growingly, I think 3d printingand 3d technology in general are
upskilling people who weren'tsub-specialized let's say,
implants or particular surgeryor complex orthopedic surgery
(37:29):
and that stuff.
I started to feel like it'sactually the quote-unquote
demarketizing is actually notdemarketizing 3D printing, it's
actually demarketizing theseaccesses to subspecialty care,
which is really the next step ofhigher quality care.
So I think that's really goodfor everybody, for consumers.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, it is for the straightforward stuff.
It's like orthotics.
It's like orthotics.
How long would it take a footdoctor to train a gp doctor how
to prescribe plantar fasciitisinsole?
You know, an hour or two.
And if, if that family practicehad a half a dozen doctors and
(38:15):
they shared one scanner, theycould, they could reduce a
second visit and expense fortheir patients and provide very
good care by outsourcing to acompany that made orthotics.
Yeah, just for the scanner andthe software and the
prescription is super, supereasy.
So there's some of that goingon, but it's not super easy.
(38:38):
So there's some of that going on, but it's not too prevalent yet
.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, I think the key is to know where your limit is,
and I don't think that's a veryclear line sometimes, which
could be dangerous Becausepeople may overestimate
themselves and then try to dostuff they really shouldn't be
doing.
To do stuff they reallyshouldn't be doing, and that's
actually some of the complaintsI heard from my orthodontist
(39:02):
friends about normal dentistsoffering online technology.
I don't know the details of thediscrepancies, but that is a
concern, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
A lot of the training is what not to try to treat.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
I see, yeah.
So yeah, my question is I askmyself okay, if I ever need a
dental implant, great God forbidwould I go to a certified or a
surgeon who's like the top ofthe pyramid, or do I go to a
friendly local dental office whoI know?
(39:37):
The dentist, I am comfortablewith him doing anything else,
would I be open to do a implantwith this guy?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I'd find out how many he's done.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Definitely don't want to be the first.
That's that I have been thefirst for some procedures in the
past, for some of my friends asa test rabbit.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, so my, my dentist when I lived in
Charlotte was a very avid SironaCERAC dentist, so he would mill
those on crowns and you'd get acrown and run a visit.
It's awesome.
And then he started doing moreimplant retained dentures and
it's all on four.
Then he started doing moreimplant retained dentures and
he's it's all on four.
So it's 2,500, 2,000 to 2,500bucks per implant.
So he's getting 20,000 for thearch but he's got to outsource
(40:29):
it for five to 10,000 bucks forthe screws be placed.
And he goes hey, I could dothat.
So went back to school, learnedhow to do it and then I just
started a um, a cloud based um,a cloud-based um CAT scan
segmentation software, and wecan make an upper and lower arch
out of this plaster.
(40:50):
That actually felt like acranial bone.
And he was ordering models justto explain the procedure to his
patients and then he would useit to practice on himself.
That was really cool.
It was this company that I'dmet.
I heard about them and I calledthem up and I said, hey, do you
have STL output or any kind ofother 3D output?
(41:12):
And he goes no, it's allgraphics.
Why would you want to do that?
And I go well, I explained tohim.
No, it's all graphics.
Why would you want to do that?
And I go?
Well, I explained to him.
And anyway, it only took him acouple of weeks to do it, to get
a file out to us and we printedthem.
And this French company calledvisual 3d was actually based at
(41:33):
a university in Paris thatactually trained oral surgeons,
and so they took some cadaverbones and they took and scanned
them and then made 3D printedbones and then they had the
surgeons do different procedureson them and they said it was at
least 90% the same sensationdrilling the 3D printed bones as
(41:53):
real human bone, cadaver bones.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Is this a visual 3d, that's?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
3d.
That's okay.
The guy that was doing the maina lot of the work there spun
off and formed his own companyalong with a teaching oral
surgeon, so they're stilloperating today.
Yes, making these 3d printedmodels for training classes, for
training training oral surgeonsand dentists.
(42:21):
How to do these surgeries.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Okay.
Well, since we're on the topicof medical, I'd like to shift
into the medical space.
You worked in the medicalverticals quite extensively for
many years, yeah, and what wereyour focus?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
A lot of it was getting production, surgical
guides going and orthotics.
So the surgical guides forknees, I think there's.
I think 20% of all knees arenow done with surgical guides or
something like that.
And that's a lot of knees andthey save 20 or 30 minutes out
(43:02):
of the surgery and that doesn'tsound like a whole lot, but the
whole surgery is only takingabout an hour.
So it actually it's a lot.
Yeah, it is a lot, and I thinkthey get 10,000 bucks an hour.
I think is the cost of asurgical theater or something
like that.
So if they can save 20 minutes,they can do another four or
five, 10, 20,000 hour surgeriesand, uh, according to a lot of
(43:28):
stats I've seen, there's lessrevision, so that's less redos
and there's less pain.
Yeah, and so all of thatcombined makes guided surgery
actually pretty popular, and theonly competition that now is
the robotic surgery and that's a$2 million machine and anyway.
(43:52):
So it's different.
So there are several companiesthat make surgical guides for
knees and now they're moving upto shoulders and other different
things.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I think the robotic companies also belong to the
large ortho companies.
Some of them do, yeah, and theyalso offer some kind of
surgical guides if needed orsomething like that.
I don't think it's like it'sactually part of their portfolio
.
Yeah, yeah, it's actually partof their portfolio.
Yeah, yeah.
And also, just so you know, Ithink the human benefit of
having less operating time andobviously the outcome is better
(44:28):
is that every minute you'reunder general anesthesia, your
brain cells are getting killed.
Oh really, yes, so there is acost.
You may not notice, yeah, butevery time you go under
something's Basically.
Yes, so there is a cost.
You may not notice, yeah, butevery time you go under
something's different.
So, yeah, if me, I definitelywould love to have someone who
(44:49):
have thought about the surgeryplan ahead of the time and then
inside there's more precisionand guidance during the surgery,
if I ever go under for a bigsurgery like that.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, it's replacing knees.
I've seen videos of actualsurgeries and they're using
power tools and hammers.
It is not.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yes, that's exactly why I didn't go into orthopedics
.
It's brutal.
It's like a butchering process.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I do hope that in the future the surgeries will be
less invasive and aggressivelike that, but we're still not
there yet.
So I think surgical guide isdefinitely one step forward.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah yeah, at 3d systems.
Back then we thought we wereall going to be millionaires,
because custom um knee implantsright, and it turns out that
they only have four or fivesizes.
And the knee implantsthemselves are not custom, but
the guides to do the cutting forthe socket is custom.
(45:51):
Almost as exciting, but notquite.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Wow, I'm sure somebody became millionaires
after that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, the people who came up with the first guided
surgeries.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
They're doing well when I knew about it, but I did
not have the business insight orcompetition that I feel like
robots, although it is expensive, it's a bit of like it's a
surprise a little bit to theindustry they actually can make
(46:35):
these guys obsolete in a way.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
It's definitely a different business model.
But Conformis is one of the bigimplant guys and I think they
started out from scratch andthey've got a lot of machines
running 24 hours a day.
I think they signed some dealwith Stryker, I can't remember,
but Stryker is another one ofthose that they make titanium
(47:05):
implants.
But it's interesting, they'renot custom cell-like structure
for um, uh, in the spacesbetween vertebraes and some hip
cups and stuff like that.
But what happens is because ofthe bone structure that they did
(47:29):
the research on bone ingrowsinto the structure and if it's
not the right cell size or notspacings or stuff, different
stuff, the bone won't grow in.
But they've done a lot ofresearch and they 3D print those
as a standard device.
But they used to do it withdiffusion bonding, so you take a
(47:52):
structure and you kind of weldit to the other structure, but
that was super expensive and notvery good throughput and they
started 3D printing and they'vegot a building full of titanium
3D printers.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, I think they made the news.
They bought like hundreds ofmachines.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yes, and they built an entirely new building for
expansion of that.
Oh wow, yeah, they've committed.
Stryker does some incrediblestuff, everything from cranial
patches to knees, to titanium,to guides everything.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Is Stryker still leading in the 3D printing space
?
I think yeah, not.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Because I haven't heard about them lately in the
news.
Yeah, they, they keep it prettyquiet.
I don't think too much haschanged.
Well, I think they might haveeven doubled down okay, yeah,
that's good to know yeah,they've done quite well.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
So Conformis, I think it got acquired by Restore3D as
a startup and actually it aimsto create customized, completely
personalized implant straightout.
Yeah, I mean this is likesomething that's very
interesting to everybody rightnow because it's fairly recent
and we're all kind of monitoringif this acquisition is a
(49:18):
success because there's astartup acquiring a public
company at a very low valuationI mean quote unquote low
valuation.
We don't really know if this isa good acquisition yet.
Um, the other thing is thespace they're going after is the
ones that people typicallydidn't like.
After try, for example, j&j didcompletely personalized implant
(49:43):
for somehow that that is not ahuge part of their portfolio.
And now that this startupfocused just on this and it's
quite ambitious and they have AIand machine learning embedded
in whatever, everybody has AIand machine learning these days,
so it's quite exciting, butalso people are kind of on the
sideline watching to see what'sgoing to happen.
(50:05):
It's very bold, very bold movesfor this company and I like the
team, I talk to them on aregular basis, so, and I invite
them to our webinars and stuff.
So yeah, that's that's like oneinteresting angle they're going
after, but I don't know why thepersonalized implants, as much
as it's very nice to think about, it, hasn't really taken off
(50:32):
yeah, for the metal implantsyeah there's turnaround time and
post-processing.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
It's quite complex.
The throughput on those isn'tsuper.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, you have to have a lot of the what do you
think the current challenge wehave as industry?
Do we need a better machine andbetter post-processing or
software?
What is the pain point rightnow?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I think it's um, one just certification for the
process.
I mean it takes years andthings change within those years
.
I mean it's five to seven yearsfor a new device at least, and
so there's, there's uh approval,and then you need access to
(51:20):
market training, all the doctorsto do it.
It's, it's, it's a slog, it'snot.
Hey, I got a new device, let'sgo.
It's, it's many, many years.
I think that's the biggestchallenge.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
So now let's shift gear a little bit, since I know
that you're still pretty muchactive in the space.
You're an investor of a veryexciting startup in the hearing
aid space.
Do you want to tell us aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Sure, the hearing aid business changed completely to
3D printing within about afive-year period in the early
2000s, so about 2003, 2004,.
3shape came on board.
There was two grad students inDenmark and they got their
(52:18):
thesis project funded by one ofthe hearing aid companies and it
was a scanner.
And then they came on board.
A medical resin company inGermany came on board and 3D
Systems just launched asolid-state laser 3D printer.
And all of those three thingscame on at the same time and I
(52:40):
had just come back from Asia,back to headquarters, to take
over the stereolithographybusiness.
And it was a wild ride.
We got we worked on the firstcouple of companies just all
resources, all hands on deck,and then once the first company
started doing it, the others hadto do it and whole business is
(53:01):
was run by about five companieslike 80 90 percent of the
world's hearing aids are done byfive companies and so once the
first one kind of did it, theothers had to.
So there was just a buyingfrenzy for several years resin
and special machines, specialsoftware, all sorts of good
stuff.
And I started working very,very closely with with three
shape at the time.
(53:21):
So I got to know those guysreally really well, and the guy
that was running their audiobusiness left and he's now the
CEO of this startup down inAustralia.
It was a guy at MonashUniversity that used AI to scan
the outside of the ear and thenhave AI fill in the inside part.
(53:42):
That you don't have line ofsight on and it basically is if
the outside looks like this, theinside must look like that, and
they base that on thousands andthousands of full ear scans
that they had on file, and soyou can actually take an iPhone
10, 11, or 12 with that reallynice 3D scanner that's built
into the phone, wave it aroundyour ear and it takes a very,
(54:05):
very good scan, and then theirsoftware completes the inside.
And they're only business tobusiness, they're not direct to
consumer, so they will sell tolabs or companies that want it
personalized for theirproduction.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
It's called H3D, right?
Yeah, it's also a pitch 3Dcompany.
I don't know if it reallyhelped them with raising any
money, but it was an honor to beable to know the team.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
They're just doing their Series A raise right now.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Cool.
Maybe I'll reach out to Ianagain to see if he needs any
help.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
But that was so I invested in them.
And then the other one wasAction Face.
The guys that did the figurinesSame thing based upon the
scanner and the iPhone, butunfortunately the software API
that was used to do that wassold to Facebook and Apple
downgraded the 3D scanner infuture iPhones above the 13.
(55:04):
And that kind of made it reallyhard for these guys for Action
Face to continue.
So they got sold to infinitereality.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Undetermined financial return yet Well, it's
better than zero Because, trustme, I've had that this year, and
it's also another fantasticcompany, but I'm not going to
mention the names because it'sjust quite sad.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, there's a lot of 3D printing companies that
are buying the dust now.
That were, yes, that raisedtheir money during the hype
period, and I don't know who'sleft out in the cold, but
there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, there are a couple of interesting things I
want to just rewind a little bit.
You said that the entirehearing aid industry was
basically transformed in fiveyears, which is totally a
dramatic, different story fromthe dental story that we just
heard, which takes decades.
What do you think the keyingredients of that
(56:06):
transformation are?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
It ended up with a better product with less returns
.
Hearing aid doctors they haveto replace it If the fit doesn't
work.
It's a free remake and therewas like 15 to 20% remake rate
and it got down to like 5% withdigital scanning.
(56:29):
And the other thing is the waythe old impressions and hearing
aids were made.
Before it was an art.
I mean, it took about a year toget somebody to get their
reject rate down to anacceptable level.
But with digital you couldtrain somebody in in a few days
and it, the, the remake, is afraction.
(56:52):
I mean all the way in the earsbehind the.
I mean all all types of hearingaids and these things go for
like 2,500 bucks, 33,000 in ayear.
And what's the shell cost Acouple bucks.
Maybe it's not the 3D printing,but it's the whole digital scan
and fabrication.
(57:12):
So it's consistent.
It's definitely value-added,yeah, and then once one company
had it, you couldn't compete ifyou didn't have it too.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
So another thing I would say, proposed in terms of
theory is a fairly consolidatedindustry.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
It is.
Five companies are probably 80%of the business.
There might even be threecompanies.
I know some of them combine andI haven't seen the numbers
combined and then they can and Ihaven't seen the numbers.
I don't think hearing aidsactually have grown in volume
very much, but it was 20,000 aday was the number I recall, and
(57:53):
they all had these $200,000 SLAmachines doing it.
Now it's all DLP on the desktop.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
The other thing is I don't know if you know the
statistic, but if you know thatwould be great.
I think a lot of Americans alsoare living without hearing aids
and hearing period.
It's the stigma.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
It's the cost.
Nobody wants to have a goal.
Hearing aids it's bad enoughgetting old as it is.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
So, while, since you're claiming to be old, what
do you have any?
Well, let's talk about thefuture.
What do you think of the nextfive to 10 years we're going to
see in the industry?
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I've been pushing for 3D printed eyewear for a long
time and did a lot of work at HPwith some of the bigger
companies.
I to this day still don't knowwhy it hasn't really blown up.
I think it's again.
Eyewear is dominated by two orthree companies and they're kind
(58:55):
of fixed in their methods andtheir factories and their supply
chain, brands, brands, all thatkind of stuff I I honestly
don't know, because I mean toolscosts anywhere from 20 000 to
50 000 bucks and that's per size.
And so when you come up with anew branded eye design, how many
(59:18):
sizes they make two or threeand if they don't fit you tough.
It's a funny business where nowyou can actually make a full
frame with 3D printed textures,post-processed and everything
for under $10.
But of course, if injectionmolded it's probably a buck but
(59:40):
they sell it for $ed, it'sprobably a buck, but they sell
it for $300, $400, $500 for aframe, it's the world's biggest
rip-off.
So I think 3D printed eyewearonce one of the larger companies
implements it, I think it'llchange a lot.
Yes, it actually kind of hasthat kind of tincture that we
(01:00:04):
just talked about Right now it'severybody's pitching the
uniqueness, the fashion, thedesign and stuff, not that you
can get a frame that fits yourface perfectly in under a week
in any size that fits you Iactually think they're pushing
(01:00:26):
the the uniqueness.
Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
yes, I also think it doesn't um disapprove our theory
that 3d printing for eyewear is.
I mean, fashion is a fastchanging thing, so one day you
one shape, the next day you'regoing to want another, and it's
actually good for the businessif you think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Yeah, but I just went through this myself.
I had my eyes surgery years agoand finally ended up meeting
readers.
Now I need progressive readersand it's a pain in the ass to go
in and they've got hundreds offrames on the wall.
So it's okay, I want these thistype, this type, this type and
(01:01:09):
this size.
And it quickly comes down tolike four or five pair on a
whole wall of frames.
That actually fit me.
And do you like any of them?
Well, no, this one I like, butthe frame's not exactly the
right size, but it's good enough.
And so you end up with yourglasses slipping down your nose
all the time.
(01:01:31):
I have the same issue.
Yeah Well, and then there's theAsian face, and the.
African-american face verydifferent nose bridges and
different fits.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I can only buy Japanese frames because our nose
bridge is just fits.
That's right.
I can only buy Japanese framesbecause they, you know, our nose
bridge is just shorter, yep.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah, I'm, I'm shocked and I think it's I'm
guessing it's because it's ownedby two or three big companies
and they don't want to mess upwhat they've already got.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
That's, that's the only reason I you know, we we
actually mentioned a company, abig company, in our conversation
so far.
That, I think, is actuallychanging the landscape a little
bit, and they also, first of all, I've noticed a lot of people
who were in 3D printing aregoing to that company, and also
this company has acquired quitea few 3D technology companies,
3d printing companies, and thatis ah, that's Meta Facebook.
Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Oh yes, yes, they have, but they're, yeah, I know.
They're not focusing on.
Yeah, they're not focusing onwhat we wanted to focus on, but
they did do a lot of acquisitioninside in this space.
They're doing some pretty coolstuff, but it's not for
progressive readers, forprogressive readers.
Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Well, if listeners, if you want to start a cool
startup, call me, because I aminterested in starting a company
in the space if opportunityarises, if I found the right
teammate, because I need theglasses myself.
This definitely sounds a veryexciting space, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
The other one is earbuds.
So if you actually do a littlebit of research on how much
market share and what the volumeis on just the Apple AirPod
Pros I mean, it's bigger thanother huge multinational
companies it's billions andbillions, and that's with the
(01:03:21):
standard set of six differentsizes of silicon earbuds.
But if you run they fall out.
If you know your bicyclethey'll fall out, and there goes
your 400 headphones and they've.
There's been custom earbuds onthe market for a couple of
decades.
But price and fit is theproblem, because it's the same
(01:03:43):
process as giving you hearingaid, but you have to go in and
get a hundred dollar impression.
Then somebody has to take theimpression and hand make an
earbud out of it, and it's apretty skilled task and so they
end up costing between 200 and250 bucks for just an earbud.
It's like, okay, there'sthere's very little market for
(01:04:05):
that.
Uh, yeah, but with this uhcompany down in australia, h3d,
they can take a picture of yourear and design an earbud to go
on an airpod pro or any othermaybe I should write him a check
yeah, I did so.
I made a small investmentbecause I was I'd known the guy
(01:04:28):
for decades, when he was atthree shape, and this guy became
the ceo of this little companyand it was this, uh, a guy's
thesis project, using ai to dothe to complete all the things
that the camera couldn't see,and it worked.
And now they're doing dental aswell.
So dental models mainly.
(01:04:49):
It's basically taking a reallycrappy scan and making a
watertight model, filling in allthe information that's missing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yeah, no, I'm going to pin him up.
Yeah, it's really a fascinatingspace and we're reaching the
end of our conversation, Lee.
Thank you so much for cominghere today.
Now any final word to advisefor the future generation,
people who are either in 3Dprinting or just in the
university.
Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Persistence pays off.
It pays off more often than not.
If you really think anapplication is suitable for
production, stick with it andfind an industry champion to
share your thoughts with you.
Not all will cross the chasm,so you have to keep several of
these things going at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
All right With that.
Thank you so much, lee.
Great conversation.
I'm sure I'll invite you backfor another conversation and
talk about our investment andobservations of this world.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
All righty.
Thanks for having me.
What does it take to shape entire industries?
Today, on the Lattice podcast,we're joined by Lee Dockstader,
a true pioneer of 3D printingwho has had decades-long career
with industry giants like 3DSystems and HP.
Lee has helped changeeverything from dental aligners
to custom hearing aids and evensurgical guides.
(00:22):
In this episode, lee shareshard-won lessons,
commercialization secrets andpredictions for where mass
personalization is headed next.
There's just too much to fitinto a 60-minute-long episode
with Lee and I certainly hope toinvite him back again.
Now.
Join us and learn about thereal story behind 3D printing's
(00:45):
most significant milestones inhealthcare.
The content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only anddoes not constitute medical,
legal or financial advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed by the host and guests
are their own and do notnecessarily reflect those of
(01:06):
their employers, affiliates orany associated organizations.
Hello everyone, welcome to theLattice Podcast episode number
90.
Today, our guest is LeeDockstader, a veteran of the 3D
printing industry and also hasvery long track records with two
major 3D printing companies.
(01:26):
One is 3D Systems, the otherone is HP.
Lee, thanks for joining ustoday.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You know, every time I have a meeting with you, I
always learn a ton of stuffbecause you see so much.
I mean you recently claimedquote unquote retired, but
honestly I don't think you are.
I think you're still extremelypassionate about the industry
and where it's heading to.
So tell me what you're, youknow.
Okay, for those people who arenew probably are not familiar
(01:55):
with Lee, but for those peoplewho have already been in 3D
printing industry for a while,there's no way you can miss
Lee's presence everywhere, andespecially when it comes to
healthcare 3D printing, I thinkyour presence is everywhere.
But why don't you tell us aboutyour origin story?
You know how you got started,decades ago, and then from there
(02:17):
.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay.
So originally I wanted to be apilot.
So I applied to the Air ForceAcademy and ended up going to
West Point.
But my eyes weren't bad incollege and so I couldn't be a
pilot.
So I thought, okay, I'll be anengineer and make my own plane.
So I finished up at UCLA andbecause I took drafting, because
(02:42):
I wanted to be an architect, Igot a job at a TRW
Semiconductors laying out hybridamplifiers because drafting and
layout and then I got involvedwith video there and then ended
up moving down to San Diegoafter I graduated from UCLA to
work for a cable TV box companyand I got hired there because I
(03:11):
had the video experience and Ibuilt my own hacker box to break
the cable TV security.
So that got me a job there.
That was pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And then I worked with a lot of HP test equipment
at the time and ended up workingas a field engineer for them
for quite a few years.
And because of my draftingexperience I got recruited to
the CAD CAM when HP got into CADCAM, first in 2D and then 3D,
so I was an electrical engineerbut I had more mechanical
experience than all the otherelectrical engineers.
(03:41):
So I did cad for a while.
They sent me out to asia in 89um, right during tenement square
actually and I was out therefor three years and came back
and then one of the littlesoftware companies that was
doing research for hp came upwith the first windows 95
(04:02):
basedbased CAD package and theyshowed it to me on a 486 laptop.
And I'm just going oh man darn,I'm going to have to find
something else to do becausewe're selling CAD workstations
for $50,000 and $20,000 forsoftware.
And here are these guys, showedon Windows 95 and selling it
(04:22):
for $500.
So I went and joined them.
Be the chance to get rich andfamous.
We got the famous parts for alittle while.
What's the name?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
of the company.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
It was 3DI.
It then became IronCab.
It got bought by Autodesk andthen spun off.
Oh okay, I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I would be able to Google this.
To be honest, I mean none ofthis stuff.
I definitely was Googling youbefore I do this podcast, but I
don't think I saw any of thisinformation.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, trispectives, it was very, very cool Windows
95 package.
And then they got bought andthen 3D Systems says hey, you
know CAD and you know Asia,because HP had sent me out to
Asia for three years.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And so they said do you want to go back?
And I go well, yeah, pay forthe apartment, the kids' school
fees, and sure we'll go back.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Asia is nice, asia is nice.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, If somebody else pays the rent.
That was a tough part in HongKong.
Right it was in Hong Kong.
Right, it was an expensive city, yeah, so I worked out there
for another seven years with 3DSystems and came back and ended
up taking over thestereolithography business and
launched the current productline that's there today.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So let's rewind a little bit.
I did not know that you startedyour career in HP as a salesman
.
It's not even his job.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Let's make it his job and send him out to Asia and
have him do it out there.
That's how it came up.
But I actually went out therefor an interview and I came back
and I said thank you, but no,thank you, they go.
Why?
I said well, so I had a longlist of reasons, spreadsheet,
waiting factors, all that stuff.
And my boss, my old boss, saidhey, you're going to go and I go
(06:30):
.
No, look waiting factors.
And says no, because you'regoing to go and I go.
Why?
It's because you're, you're 29years old.
You regret it the rest of yourlife If you don't.
And that got me and I all thethings I was afraid of happening
happened.
Oh, like what?
Shut the division down?
All sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Okay, I see business related, not because of the
place.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
No, no.
I met my gorgeous, tall blondepartner in a law firm.
Well, that's a win.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I would say that's a huge win.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
In Hong Kong.
Yeah, she kind of stood out.
We got married up there andthen when we got the offer to go
back, she goes sure, let's go.
So we went back for anotherseven years.
So I was out there for 10 years.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
That's amazing.
We definitely need to unpackthat at some.
You know, right now China is oneverybody's mind and every
single sentence.
So now going back to the 3dsystems experience, is it true
that Chuck Chuck Hall actuallyhired you directly?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Chuck and Art Sims.
I don't know if you rememberthat name.
He was the CEO.
Rich Valenson was the presidentInterviewed with those three
guys, super, super team.
Art was a management veteranfrom GE and I think he was on
the board of SDRC at the time.
Valenson was the head of thedisk drive R&D division at IBM,
(07:59):
had a couple thousand engineersand Art met him at some
conference and kind ofchallenged him can he take his
knowledge of high, high volume,low mix and do low volume, high
mix?
And he goes sure and anyway,hired him as president to come
on board and he's that teamhired me and I met max gerrits
(08:20):
have you heard that name he has?
He has a service bureau on theservice bureau around Santa
Barbara.
But he gave me a 3D cube whichI still have to this day.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You know you gave me a lot of 3D printing stuff.
Actually, it's still on myshelf.
Every time I see you, you giveme something.
So yeah, that's a perk of thejob.
You know, when you started at3D System, were you a business
development.
What was your role back then?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
They went out to be the managing director, so I
started up the operation.
So my wife started the companyin Hong Kong.
We set up a KK company in Japan, offices in Malaysia and Taiwan
and recruited distributors andwe did the maintenance ourselves
, except in Japan, and thenstarted our own company in Japan
(09:08):
.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Under 3D Systems.
Right yeah yeah.
Our own.
Okay, yeah, great how I met youand what I understand what you
do is that these big companiesalways hire you to literally
create new markets because, yes,3d printing is amazing.
Look at all the amazing stuffbehind you.
I'm mesmerized on a daily basiswith all the research paper
(09:33):
that's output.
But commercialization is reallythe pain point, and you've had
decades of experience basicallytrying to create new markets and
how to commercialize theseamazing technologies.
Do you want to unpack thesemoves, maybe some milestones of
(09:56):
what you know?
Back then, decades ago, whatare some of the major milestones
you did in terms of helpingwith commercialization?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So I mean, back then 3D CAD was pretty new, right?
So if you're going to sell 3Dprinting to somebody, they got
to have 3D CAD.
You can't print 3D stuffwithout 3D data.
So that was so my experienceout there in CAD, CAM and
knowing the companies that had3D CAD because, like I said,
when I went back in 97, it wasstill relatively new $50,000 a
(10:28):
seat and all that kind of stuffand so I just focused on the
people that had cab and therewere very few service bureaus.
And so that was the next thingI worked on is getting companies
to start service bureaus.
And then the other thing at thetime, thomas Pang, the guy who
invented epoxy resin, launchedit, but it wasn't humidity
(10:50):
resistant and so, oh my goodness, the parts would go soft in a
couple of days out there, 90%humidity, 90 degrees, and then
3D Systems.
Sl5510 was the first good,humidity-resistant, accurate
epoxy resin and that reallystarted things going.
(11:14):
But yeah, we focus onautomotive companies that have
hundreds, if not thousands, ofseats at CAD, and then service
bureaus and then the toybusiness and the tooling
business.
So of course the toy businessin South China was huge and they
all had CAD.
So it was you focus on thoseguys.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So it's almost like you see some gaps in an
ecosystem and this is where youcan find opportunities to close
the gap and develop verticals.
And then those are industrialverticals which I'm fascinated
with but know very little aboutI want to talk about.
(12:00):
Let's talk about the medicaland dental space that you're
also equally very passionateabout and saw a lot of
revolution throughout the years,you know.
One is the dental revolution,the other one is hearing aid
revolution.
I was not even aware of 3Dprinting back then, but you
(12:21):
lived through those milestones,really systemic shifts, tell us
about.
You know what was it likeliving through?
Let's say first the um, thedental revolution with Align
technology.
I mean, it doesn't happen justovernight, does it?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
no, it took Align 10 years to be profitable and it
and it hit 100 million dollarsin revenue 10 years.
And it was hard work becausethey had to create a business
and at first they went afterorthodontists and they went
public and actually I boughtsome of their pre-IPO stock and
(12:55):
held it for 10 years and doubledmy money A few years later.
Well, 10 years after that, itwas instead of $20, it was $700.
Could have held on to that one alittle bit longer, but double
your money, that's not bad, butyeah, so with them they
approached orthodontists tocarry their stuff, but it was I
(13:18):
think at the time it was about$1,200 for the treatment to the
orthodontist and theorthodontist goes no, no, no, if
I'm going to charge $5,000 forbraces, for bands and brackets
and wires, it'll only cost themmaybe $100.
And so their profit was actuallygoing to go down.
So a line, when IPO, spent alot of the IPO money on
(13:42):
advertising to create demand andthey sent them all to
orthodontists and the patientswould come in and the
orthodontist would say, yeah,yeah, that line stuff is really
great for a lot of people, butyou, my friend, you need braces.
And it almost put them underand it wasn't until they
switched and went after dentistsand the dentist goes wait a
minute, I just take animpression and send it in and I
(14:05):
can make 5 000 bucks instead ofa half hour or 45 minutes
drilling and doing a filling.
He's yeah, sign me up.
So, um, their fortunes really,really changed when they went
after the the dental market andthen they focused on
international, outside thecountry and they have
manufacturing now, I think inPoland and China, as well as
(14:27):
their main thing down in Mexico.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
How did you get into this whole storyline?
Did Align reach out to 3DSystems to figure out a
manufacturing process?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
They did at the very beginning.
Actually, the first processthey had um, they put the, they
take the impressions, they pourplaster models and they put
plaster models in a small panand they would pour black epoxy
around it and then they wouldmill off a layer, take a
photograph of it and they wouldstack the layers on top of each
(15:05):
other.
And that's how they did thesegmentation to create the 3D
models to start with.
And then they had a verycomplicated software algorithm
that moved the teeth and theycornered the market of those CNC
scanning systems.
And then they said this isn'tsustainable and 3d systems have
(15:28):
just launched a large format,high-powered solid state laser
system, as opposed to the onesthey had before were argon gas,
I mean gas tube lasers.
They had a whopping 200milliwatt and it took a 100 amp
three-phase circuit to run it.
What year was that?
It has more than that power now.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Is that 1990s?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, 90s, mid-90s.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Okay.
Yeah that's like the wholenational laboratory, actually no
it was late 90s, I'm sorry,okay, 98, 99.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
And that was just when Align was starting.
So they came up with theaccurate software, a solid state
machine, and um, there was.
This is public information now.
But they, align, came to 3DSystems and says, hey, can you
help us with this?
And um, they tried doing itthemselves for a year or so on
(16:24):
the, on the sly, on the quiet,and they couldn't.
They couldn't figure out how tomake it faster and better and
more accurate.
And 3d said, hey, give us acouple million bucks in
non-recurring engineering, buy50 machines up front and we'll
make it happen.
And they worked on it for a fewmonths and I think the, the
(16:47):
throughput and the accuracy wasalmost order magnitude better, I
mean.
And then it, it just keptgetting better and better after
that.
I mean it's.
I mean they make a millioncustom parts a day, a day.
Yeah, can you imagine thelogistics of trying to keep
track of all the sets of teethand then the thermoformed
(17:10):
aligners, the barcoding, and youhave to get it in the right bag
, in the right box with theright shipping label and the
right billing information.
I mean it's just mind bogglingthe logistics that make all that
stuff happen, so are theyinternalized.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
They're internalized, that manufacturing process,
even today.
Oh it's all internal.
Yeah, they've never outsourcedso I mean that's a long marriage
.
The question is, this is goingto be a marriage that's happily
ever after um so far it has.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Um.
They did buy that europeancompany that had the hot, yeah,
cubicure, yeah, right.
So I've listened to some of theinterviews with the vp of r.
D is the same guy that I workwith.
He's been there 25 years, Superguy, yeah.
But they bought those guys andit'd probably first be grinding
(18:08):
guards or stuff like that, Causeit took them a decade to choose
a new resin, a new thermalforming material, Cause it's got
to have very predictable ummechanical properties for to
work with their software.
And so with 3d printed ones, Imean you ever cut the, the, the
(18:34):
security plastic packagingaround certain stuff?
I mean it's hard to cut, I meanthat stuff is tough and the
aligner stuff is even tougher.
So for them to get thosemechanical properties in a resin
is incredibly hard.
So they might first start withnight guards or the retainers,
(18:55):
ones that don't actually movethe teeth but just keep them in
place, and in that case they canmake areas thicker that they
need more mechanical strength on.
You can't really do that withthermoforming, but you can do it
with some fancy CAD and theirown, their own resin.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat they do.
I mean there's companies thathave claimed to have a liner
(19:16):
material 3D printed, but ithasn't been popular at all.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's always interesting when I talk about
news articles with you aboutsomething that's you know just
came out, and you always justkind of temper my enthusiasm
down a little bit.
This is like nah, jenny, it'snot going to work that well.
As it says yeah, I'vedefinitely seen a lot of new
stuff, like even 3D printedveneers that's coming out, but
(19:49):
then I got tampered down alittle bit that it may not work
for a lot of people.
It's just much harder than itlooks, than our news article,
which is, you know I.
I would say that's part of thehype cycle.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Still, um, so they're getting there.
Dentures has made a lot ofprogress.
I worked on dentures at hp forquite a while.
Um, there are some denturematerials.
3d systems has just launched anew printer that can do
multi-material um, but theaesthetics and the fit and
(20:22):
mechanical properties man,that's.
That's hard all three.
Um, I think a 3d printed basewith cemented in um denture
teeth like dense flies.
I got a factory tour theirtheir denture teeth division and
they've worked on that like for10 or 20 years and those teeth
(20:43):
look fantastic.
They're super tough.
They last a long time.
You can't get that kind oftranslucency, shade gradation
and stuff very easily in 3Dprinting.
3d systems with theirmulti-material new dental
printers getting there, but theythey don't look like handmade
(21:04):
dentures just yet.
But I think a denture base withum out of the box denture teeth
that fit in a custom base, Ithink that would be a good
in-between step.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I mean I think that step one.
It seems like we just need tofind a replacement with whatever
that's comparable to whateverthat we have existing, and then
the next step would be hopefullybe cheaper and more accessible
to a lot of people cheaper andmore accessible to a lot of
people.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, the cheaper.
I mean.
It's interesting.
Dentures are the mostlabor-intensive and least
profitable device in the dentalmarket.
At least you know regularremovable dentures,
implant-retained dentures,they're called all-on-four, so
(21:57):
you put four implants and holdthe denture down.
That's $18,000 to $20,000 anarch.
Wow, and those a lot are 3Dprinted for temps and then CNC
machined for the finals.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, I think a couple of years ago, when we
hosted a global summit somewherein San Francisco, there was a
dentist and I think she is hername is Valerie, I forgot her
last name and she is a denturequeen and she taught me a lot
about the SAS statistics of howmany Americans don't have teeth,
(22:33):
especially elderly, and theyjust live on without teeth for
decades.
And and also the reimbursementof danger is extremely low, like
you said is the return oninvestment is just not
justifiable for a lot of labsand dental practitioners.
So, yeah, I hope that spadescan really revolutionize, but
(22:56):
we're talking about, you know,almost 10 years since this is
last on my radar.
I don't know when we'reactually going to see a real
change.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
It's getting close.
Densply's got one of theirresins that's quite popular, I
think.
It's running on carbon and alsoregular DLP machines.
It's running on carbon and alsoregular DLP machines and that's
.
I've heard that one's madepretty good advances in
aesthetics and wear and it'scoming from Dent Supply.
So that's, they know whatthey're doing.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
The other thing I was thinking about when you know,
when I was thinking about dentalmarket is it is considered
technically a luxury marketbecause in the old days, by the
way, there were a lot ofEgyptian dentists I don't know
if you noticed even in America,because they invented dentistry
thousands of years ago and youcan see, mummies had dental
(23:54):
works, but only the rich mummies, not the average Joe.
So it is somewhat in the luxury, premium item category rather
than necessity, like medical.
So my question is in terms ofcommercialization for dental,
it's a little bit different game, right?
I'm talking about it because Iencounter a lot of dental
startups and my question is isthis going to return anything
(24:18):
substantial?
Is this going to be a reallyhard journey, long hard journey.
You know, align Technology Idid some research is one of the
most successful companies thatuses 3D printing as a technology
.
3d technology also probably oneof the most successful dental
space companies.
(24:39):
We're talking about anintersection of two extremely
rare events.
The stat doesn't look very goodfor current existing early
stage startups.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
on that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
They're a billion dollars a quarter and 70 gross
margins yeah and they've got 800million in the bank or
something like that.
I don't know, it's their,they've done well and they
continue to do well, theycontinue to grow and they're
they just launched um palatableexpanders you know, those are
(25:16):
the kids with the pre-teens.
They don't have room in their um, in their upper.
They have to get um a palatableexpander and make room, and
about 25 of all kids that havebraces need a palatable expander
and it's they used.
Well, they're currently still.
The retainers with theexpansion screws in the middle
(25:38):
are like torture devices.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So Align just launched a direct print palette
expander and you change it outevery night, so it's a very
small change and it's not nearlyas painful and they can move
more things around the way theywant, as opposed to just a
general expansion.
It's pretty cool and that's thefirst new product they had and
(26:07):
it's the first 3D printedproduct they've had and I
understand it's going overreally well.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Well, here's a question.
Okay, if there is a startupdoing just that, what is the
success possibility for thatstartup to actually get
somewhere?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It kind of depends.
The problem is access to market.
Any of these little startupsdon't have access to the dental
market.
Dental labs isn't as hard.
Say, there's like five or 6,000labs in the US and you can hire
half a dozen people and coverthe labs fairly well, and the
labs are consolidating.
So you really only have totackle the top 20 and get a good
(26:50):
portion of the market.
But dentists is another problem.
You're not going to get pastthe front desk.
It's you know, even, uh, anynon-dental company, unless
you're dense, ply or line or 3mor somebody that they know and
they need.
You're not getting past thefront office manager and so, and
(27:14):
to get that, then you have tohire one of the big guys to do
it Henry Schein or one of thoseguys to distribute to you, and
they want 30%, 40% off the top.
It's the cost of customeracquisition is the killer, and
that's what kind of did in SmileDirect Club.
They got up to $600 million inrevenue very quickly, very
(27:40):
successful.
And then COVID hit and theirmarket just plummeted and it's
like, well, what, what?
What happened was everybody wasseeing themselves on zoom.
Yeah, like the way their teethlooked, and they didn't say, hey
, send me my do-it-myselfimpression kit.
They went to their dentist andtheir dentist said yes, I can
fix your teeth.
And so Align just boomed forthat and SmileDirect just
(28:05):
crashed.
It's a shame.
It was an awesome businessproposition, but
direct-to-consumer is tough.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I'm learning about business every day and I
think compliance for the linersis a huge problem.
So, without the human component, that's one reason why probably
SmileDirect didn't work as well.
That's one of my hypotheses isthat people just aren't really
(28:38):
good during self-care and theyneed somebody there to supervise
.
The other interesting thingthat you mentioned about that
you need the big guys to beupfront, to be a front
salesperson.
I just heard this expressionthe other day.
I'm trying to see if thistheory actually works.
If there's any kind ofconsumer-based product, you're
(29:00):
essentially some sort ofadvertising company.
So that is exactly what youjust said.
That's something I didn't know,but now it's actually fitting
into that theory.
It's consumer-based products.
You just have to.
Eventually, if you get bigger,you become an advertising
machine.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, smile Direct Club.
They did social mediaadvertising and during COVID
social media advertisingquadrupled in expense and it
just killed them.
They were spending so much foreach new customer that it wasn't
sustainable and they justcouldn't recover.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, it is pretty sad and also, I believe at the
time Smile Direct Club partneredwith HP also right, I'm fairly
familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yes, yeah, it was funny.
The sales guy I worked with at3D Systems and he got an
appointment to go visit themright at the very beginning and
he says, hey, lee, you know thisspace, can you come with me?
And they bought two machines onthe first visit.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Bought two 3D Systems machines.
No, no, Two HP machines.
Oh, okay, Wait.
So the 3D System guy wanted youto go to the meeting and you
sold them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That's one 3D Systems guy who was working for HP.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Oh, okay, that makes more sense.
I was like who would do that?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, that's all I mean.
My grandmother was a dentistthat did active retainers.
My father had a big orthodonticlab.
I was involved with Align for20 years.
I knew that that market andactually a line had offered to
(30:44):
move their head of manufacturingto singapore and actually
insisted that he go.
And he says no, I'm not going,and he and he quit and um, smile
, direct club hired him in aminute and it was so, so funny
and I took him off to the sidewhen I first met him and I go um
, does anybody know that we kneweach other for 20 years?
(31:07):
He goes Nope, I go.
Okay, so I can't share any ofthat knowledge and you can't
share any of that knowledge.
So we're going to have to playit straight.
And it was so funny I'd have toask him all these questions
that he knew I knew all theanswers to, but we had to.
We had to ask it and he had toanswer the questions, so we
wouldn't share any confidentialinformation.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Wait, so wait.
Sorry, I missed that.
Who is this that we're talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I don't want to mention his name, but he worked
for somebody.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I was like suddenly in the storyline there is a
figure with no names.
Okay, yeah, no, I mean, this isactually a very small industry
and sometimes we have to beabsolutely discreet.
So, yeah, no, I get it.
But yeah, no, it sounds likeyou have a family history of
dental industry, so you live andbreathe the business.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You're definitely the perfect guy to really grow the
vertical.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I mean we're skipping around in our agenda here.
But since we're on here ondental, what do you see the
future for dental industry froma 3d printing perspective or
without 3d printing?
Where do you see it's going?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So it's kind of two ways.
You've got big centralmanufacturing with big, fast
machines and there's the bigdental labs.
Use that a little bit but mostof them use desktop machines at
the end of a bench lab managerand he'll have 10 people on his
(32:35):
bench and often they'll have onedesktop dlp printer at the end
of that bench that that teamuses.
They don't do.
They don't necessarily docentral manufacturing, unless
it's it's like a carbon with thedense pie resin in it.
You know that's an expensive,fast machine machine.
(32:56):
Most are still desktop machines.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So that means, formlabs is still.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
No Formlabs.
Their laser systems can'treally compete with the, at
least in speed with the modernDLPs.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I see Okay, and what do you think the business
strategy like for dentists andfor the dental startups that we
are?
I sent you a couple ofcompanies that you took a look.
Where do you think things aregoing to be?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's hard for a startup unless they partner with
one of the dental distributors.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Like Sirona Densply yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Henry Schein, you know the distributors, yeah, or
the big companies that havedirect access with their own
sales force.
So if you're a startup and youwant to get into the dental
business, it's hard Becausethere's I don't know 10 at least
10 dops that are going afterdental but what about, like um
(34:08):
alternatives?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
what about dental software?
Uh, managing, you know, this is, you know, may not, may or may
not involve 3D printing, butjust workflow.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
So there's like three .
There's Serona, 3shape andExoCAD.
If you're not one of thosethree, life is difficult Because
they own the market now andanybody who's got a 3D printer
or a CNC machine has one ofthose three.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
There are some clones , and I believe they took
decades to even get here.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes, 3shape started with the audio, the hearing aids
Right, and then moved over todental.
Exocad was kind of agovernment-funded research
company in Germany and it gotbought by a line and Dentsply
Sirona has done their own for 20years with the CERAC system and
(35:09):
that was CNC machining but nowthey're using it for driving 3D
printers as well.
But the CERAC system owned thedigital CAD business for 10, 15
years before they really had anycompetition, and that was the
point in the office.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, it seems like everybody who is big in the
space already had the foresightof owning the entire ecosystem.
Basically, yeah, they're prettysmart.
That's all I can say.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, and the implant drill guides was owned by
Materialize and Dentsply.
They had the patents on it andthey had a monopoly for a decade
or two.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I wonder how many people are actually using it,
though.
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, drill guides is another.
So it's pretty interesting inthe dental space.
Uh, a few years ago I saw somestatistic where dentists were
placing more implants than oralsurgeons and they crossed that
line.
Must have been five or sixyears ago.
Yeah, because Because, beforeyou know, oral surgeons do I
(36:19):
don't know umpteen a day andthey except for complex cases,
they rarely used guides becauseguides cost four or five hundred
bucks out of a $2,000, $2,500treatment plan, and so they're
not going to pay five hundredbucks for stuff that they do,
you know, several times a day,but you have a dentist doing it
two or three times a month, nottwo or three times before coffee
(36:42):
in the morning.
You want that guy using a guide,because if you mess up the hole
that's bad, and so the peopledoing their own surgical guide
is now fairly common.
Yes, or they'll just do it atdental lab and have it and it's
the.
It's a fraction of the pricenow.
(37:03):
It used to be four or 500 bucks, I don't know how much they are
now.
I doubt they're more than ahundred.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, you know I'm, I think, as a big picture,
growingly, I think 3d printingand 3d technology in general are
upskilling people who weren'tsub-specialized let's say,
implants or particular surgeryor complex orthopedic surgery
(37:29):
and that stuff.
I started to feel like it'sactually the quote-unquote
demarketizing is actually notdemarketizing 3D printing, it's
actually demarketizing theseaccesses to subspecialty care,
which is really the next step ofhigher quality care.
So I think that's really goodfor everybody, for consumers.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, it is for the straightforward stuff.
It's like orthotics.
It's like orthotics.
How long would it take a footdoctor to train a gp doctor how
to prescribe plantar fasciitisinsole?
You know, an hour or two.
And if, if that family practicehad a half a dozen doctors and
(38:15):
they shared one scanner, theycould, they could reduce a
second visit and expense fortheir patients and provide very
good care by outsourcing to acompany that made orthotics.
Yeah, just for the scanner andthe software and the
prescription is super, supereasy.
So there's some of that goingon, but it's not super easy.
(38:38):
So there's some of that going on, but it's not too prevalent yet
.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, I think the key is to know where your limit is,
and I don't think that's a veryclear line sometimes, which
could be dangerous Becausepeople may overestimate
themselves and then try to dostuff they really shouldn't be
doing.
To do stuff they reallyshouldn't be doing, and that's
actually some of the complaintsI heard from my orthodontist
(39:02):
friends about normal dentistsoffering online technology.
I don't know the details of thediscrepancies, but that is a
concern, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
A lot of the training is what not to try to treat.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
I see, yeah.
So yeah, my question is I askmyself okay, if I ever need a
dental implant, great God forbidwould I go to a certified or a
surgeon who's like the top ofthe pyramid, or do I go to a
friendly local dental office whoI know?
(39:37):
The dentist, I am comfortablewith him doing anything else,
would I be open to do a implantwith this guy?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I'd find out how many he's done.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Definitely don't want to be the first.
That's that I have been thefirst for some procedures in the
past, for some of my friends asa test rabbit.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, so my, my dentist when I lived in
Charlotte was a very avid SironaCERAC dentist, so he would mill
those on crowns and you'd get acrown and run a visit.
It's awesome.
And then he started doing moreimplant retained dentures and
it's all on four.
Then he started doing moreimplant retained dentures and
he's it's all on four.
So it's 2,500, 2,000 to 2,500bucks per implant.
So he's getting 20,000 for thearch but he's got to outsource
(40:29):
it for five to 10,000 bucks forthe screws be placed.
And he goes hey, I could dothat.
So went back to school, learnedhow to do it and then I just
started a um, a cloud based um,a cloud-based um CAT scan
segmentation software, and wecan make an upper and lower arch
out of this plaster.
(40:50):
That actually felt like acranial bone.
And he was ordering models justto explain the procedure to his
patients and then he would useit to practice on himself.
That was really cool.
It was this company that I'dmet.
I heard about them and I calledthem up and I said, hey, do you
have STL output or any kind ofother 3D output?
(41:12):
And he goes no, it's allgraphics.
Why would you want to do that?
And I go well, I explained tohim.
No, it's all graphics.
Why would you want to do that?
And I go?
Well, I explained to him.
And anyway, it only took him acouple of weeks to do it, to get
a file out to us and we printedthem.
And this French company calledvisual 3d was actually based at
(41:33):
a university in Paris thatactually trained oral surgeons,
and so they took some cadaverbones and they took and scanned
them and then made 3D printedbones and then they had the
surgeons do different procedureson them and they said it was at
least 90% the same sensationdrilling the 3D printed bones as
(41:53):
real human bone, cadaver bones.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Is this a visual 3d, that's?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
3d.
That's okay.
The guy that was doing the maina lot of the work there spun
off and formed his own companyalong with a teaching oral
surgeon, so they're stilloperating today.
Yes, making these 3d printedmodels for training classes, for
training training oral surgeonsand dentists.
(42:21):
How to do these surgeries.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Okay.
Well, since we're on the topicof medical, I'd like to shift
into the medical space.
You worked in the medicalverticals quite extensively for
many years, yeah, and what wereyour focus?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
A lot of it was getting production, surgical
guides going and orthotics.
So the surgical guides forknees, I think there's.
I think 20% of all knees arenow done with surgical guides or
something like that.
And that's a lot of knees andthey save 20 or 30 minutes out
(43:02):
of the surgery and that doesn'tsound like a whole lot, but the
whole surgery is only takingabout an hour.
So it actually it's a lot.
Yeah, it is a lot, and I thinkthey get 10,000 bucks an hour.
I think is the cost of asurgical theater or something
like that.
So if they can save 20 minutes,they can do another four or
five, 10, 20,000 hour surgeriesand, uh, according to a lot of
(43:28):
stats I've seen, there's lessrevision, so that's less redos
and there's less pain.
Yeah, and so all of thatcombined makes guided surgery
actually pretty popular, and theonly competition that now is
the robotic surgery and that's a$2 million machine and anyway.
(43:52):
So it's different.
So there are several companiesthat make surgical guides for
knees and now they're moving upto shoulders and other different
things.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I think the robotic companies also belong to the
large ortho companies.
Some of them do, yeah, and theyalso offer some kind of
surgical guides if needed orsomething like that.
I don't think it's like it'sactually part of their portfolio
.
Yeah, yeah, it's actually partof their portfolio.
Yeah, yeah.
And also, just so you know, Ithink the human benefit of
having less operating time andobviously the outcome is better
(44:28):
is that every minute you'reunder general anesthesia, your
brain cells are getting killed.
Oh really, yes, so there is acost.
You may not notice, yeah, butevery time you go under
something's Basically.
Yes, so there is a cost.
You may not notice, yeah, butevery time you go under
something's different.
So, yeah, if me, I definitelywould love to have someone who
(44:49):
have thought about the surgeryplan ahead of the time and then
inside there's more precisionand guidance during the surgery,
if I ever go under for a bigsurgery like that.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, it's replacing knees.
I've seen videos of actualsurgeries and they're using
power tools and hammers.
It is not.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yes, that's exactly why I didn't go into orthopedics
.
It's brutal.
It's like a butchering process.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I do hope that in the future the surgeries will be
less invasive and aggressivelike that, but we're still not
there yet.
So I think surgical guide isdefinitely one step forward.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah yeah, at 3d systems.
Back then we thought we wereall going to be millionaires,
because custom um knee implantsright, and it turns out that
they only have four or fivesizes.
And the knee implantsthemselves are not custom, but
the guides to do the cutting forthe socket is custom.
(45:51):
Almost as exciting, but notquite.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Wow, I'm sure somebody became millionaires
after that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, the people who came up with the first guided
surgeries.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
They're doing well when I knew about it, but I did
not have the business insight orcompetition that I feel like
robots, although it is expensive, it's a bit of like it's a
surprise a little bit to theindustry they actually can make
(46:35):
these guys obsolete in a way.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
It's definitely a different business model.
But Conformis is one of the bigimplant guys and I think they
started out from scratch andthey've got a lot of machines
running 24 hours a day.
I think they signed some dealwith Stryker, I can't remember,
but Stryker is another one ofthose that they make titanium
(47:05):
implants.
But it's interesting, they'renot custom cell-like structure
for um, uh, in the spacesbetween vertebraes and some hip
cups and stuff like that.
But what happens is because ofthe bone structure that they did
(47:29):
the research on bone ingrowsinto the structure and if it's
not the right cell size or notspacings or stuff, different
stuff, the bone won't grow in.
But they've done a lot ofresearch and they 3D print those
as a standard device.
But they used to do it withdiffusion bonding, so you take a
(47:52):
structure and you kind of weldit to the other structure, but
that was super expensive and notvery good throughput and they
started 3D printing and they'vegot a building full of titanium
3D printers.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, I think they made the news.
They bought like hundreds ofmachines.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yes, and they built an entirely new building for
expansion of that.
Oh wow, yeah, they've committed.
Stryker does some incrediblestuff, everything from cranial
patches to knees, to titanium,to guides everything.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Is Stryker still leading in the 3D printing space
?
I think yeah, not.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Because I haven't heard about them lately in the
news.
Yeah, they, they keep it prettyquiet.
I don't think too much haschanged.
Well, I think they might haveeven doubled down okay, yeah,
that's good to know yeah,they've done quite well.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
So Conformis, I think it got acquired by Restore3D as
a startup and actually it aimsto create customized, completely
personalized implant straightout.
Yeah, I mean this is likesomething that's very
interesting to everybody rightnow because it's fairly recent
and we're all kind of monitoringif this acquisition is a
(49:18):
success because there's astartup acquiring a public
company at a very low valuationI mean quote unquote low
valuation.
We don't really know if this isa good acquisition yet.
Um, the other thing is thespace they're going after is the
ones that people typicallydidn't like.
After try, for example, j&j didcompletely personalized implant
(49:43):
for somehow that that is not ahuge part of their portfolio.
And now that this startupfocused just on this and it's
quite ambitious and they have AIand machine learning embedded
in whatever, everybody has AIand machine learning these days,
so it's quite exciting, butalso people are kind of on the
sideline watching to see what'sgoing to happen.
(50:05):
It's very bold, very bold movesfor this company and I like the
team, I talk to them on aregular basis, so, and I invite
them to our webinars and stuff.
So yeah, that's that's like oneinteresting angle they're going
after, but I don't know why thepersonalized implants, as much
as it's very nice to think about, it, hasn't really taken off
(50:32):
yeah, for the metal implantsyeah there's turnaround time and
post-processing.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
It's quite complex.
The throughput on those isn'tsuper.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, you have to have a lot of the what do you
think the current challenge wehave as industry?
Do we need a better machine andbetter post-processing or
software?
What is the pain point rightnow?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I think it's um, one just certification for the
process.
I mean it takes years andthings change within those years
.
I mean it's five to seven yearsfor a new device at least, and
so there's, there's uh approval,and then you need access to
(51:20):
market training, all the doctorsto do it.
It's, it's, it's a slog, it'snot.
Hey, I got a new device, let'sgo.
It's, it's many, many years.
I think that's the biggestchallenge.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
So now let's shift gear a little bit, since I know
that you're still pretty muchactive in the space.
You're an investor of a veryexciting startup in the hearing
aid space.
Do you want to tell us aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Sure, the hearing aid business changed completely to
3D printing within about afive-year period in the early
2000s, so about 2003, 2004,.
3shape came on board.
There was two grad students inDenmark and they got their
(52:18):
thesis project funded by one ofthe hearing aid companies and it
was a scanner.
And then they came on board.
A medical resin company inGermany came on board and 3D
Systems just launched asolid-state laser 3D printer.
And all of those three thingscame on at the same time and I
(52:40):
had just come back from Asia,back to headquarters, to take
over the stereolithographybusiness.
And it was a wild ride.
We got we worked on the firstcouple of companies just all
resources, all hands on deck,and then once the first company
started doing it, the others hadto do it and whole business is
(53:01):
was run by about five companieslike 80 90 percent of the
world's hearing aids are done byfive companies and so once the
first one kind of did it, theothers had to.
So there was just a buyingfrenzy for several years resin
and special machines, specialsoftware, all sorts of good
stuff.
And I started working very,very closely with with three
shape at the time.
(53:21):
So I got to know those guysreally really well, and the guy
that was running their audiobusiness left and he's now the
CEO of this startup down inAustralia.
It was a guy at MonashUniversity that used AI to scan
the outside of the ear and thenhave AI fill in the inside part.
(53:42):
That you don't have line ofsight on and it basically is if
the outside looks like this, theinside must look like that, and
they base that on thousands andthousands of full ear scans
that they had on file, and soyou can actually take an iPhone
10, 11, or 12 with that reallynice 3D scanner that's built
into the phone, wave it aroundyour ear and it takes a very,
(54:05):
very good scan, and then theirsoftware completes the inside.
And they're only business tobusiness, they're not direct to
consumer, so they will sell tolabs or companies that want it
personalized for theirproduction.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
It's called H3D, right?
Yeah, it's also a pitch 3Dcompany.
I don't know if it reallyhelped them with raising any
money, but it was an honor to beable to know the team.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
They're just doing their Series A raise right now.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Cool.
Maybe I'll reach out to Ianagain to see if he needs any
help.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
But that was so I invested in them.
And then the other one wasAction Face.
The guys that did the figurinesSame thing based upon the
scanner and the iPhone, butunfortunately the software API
that was used to do that wassold to Facebook and Apple
downgraded the 3D scanner infuture iPhones above the 13.
(55:04):
And that kind of made it reallyhard for these guys for Action
Face to continue.
So they got sold to infinitereality.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Undetermined financial return yet Well, it's
better than zero Because, trustme, I've had that this year, and
it's also another fantasticcompany, but I'm not going to
mention the names because it'sjust quite sad.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, there's a lot of 3D printing companies that
are buying the dust now.
That were, yes, that raisedtheir money during the hype
period, and I don't know who'sleft out in the cold, but
there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, there are a couple of interesting things I
want to just rewind a little bit.
You said that the entirehearing aid industry was
basically transformed in fiveyears, which is totally a
dramatic, different story fromthe dental story that we just
heard, which takes decades.
What do you think the keyingredients of that
(56:06):
transformation are?
Speaker 2 (56:09):
It ended up with a better product with less returns
.
Hearing aid doctors they haveto replace it If the fit doesn't
work.
It's a free remake and therewas like 15 to 20% remake rate
and it got down to like 5% withdigital scanning.
(56:29):
And the other thing is the waythe old impressions and hearing
aids were made.
Before it was an art.
I mean, it took about a year toget somebody to get their
reject rate down to anacceptable level.
But with digital you couldtrain somebody in in a few days
and it, the, the remake, is afraction.
(56:52):
I mean all the way in the earsbehind the.
I mean all all types of hearingaids and these things go for
like 2,500 bucks, 33,000 in ayear.
And what's the shell cost Acouple bucks.
Maybe it's not the 3D printing,but it's the whole digital scan
and fabrication.
(57:12):
So it's consistent.
It's definitely value-added,yeah, and then once one company
had it, you couldn't compete ifyou didn't have it too.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
So another thing I would say, proposed in terms of
theory is a fairly consolidatedindustry.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
It is.
Five companies are probably 80%of the business.
There might even be threecompanies.
I know some of them combine andI haven't seen the numbers
combined and then they can and Ihaven't seen the numbers.
I don't think hearing aidsactually have grown in volume
very much, but it was 20,000 aday was the number I recall, and
(57:53):
they all had these $200,000 SLAmachines doing it.
Now it's all DLP on the desktop.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
The other thing is I don't know if you know the
statistic, but if you know thatwould be great.
I think a lot of Americans alsoare living without hearing aids
and hearing period.
It's the stigma.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
It's the cost.
Nobody wants to have a goal.
Hearing aids it's bad enoughgetting old as it is.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
So, while, since you're claiming to be old, what
do you have any?
Well, let's talk about thefuture.
What do you think of the nextfive to 10 years we're going to
see in the industry?
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I've been pushing for 3D printed eyewear for a long
time and did a lot of work at HPwith some of the bigger
companies.
I to this day still don't knowwhy it hasn't really blown up.
I think it's again.
Eyewear is dominated by two orthree companies and they're kind
(58:55):
of fixed in their methods andtheir factories and their supply
chain, brands, brands, all thatkind of stuff I I honestly
don't know, because I mean toolscosts anywhere from 20 000 to
50 000 bucks and that's per size.
And so when you come up with anew branded eye design, how many
(59:18):
sizes they make two or threeand if they don't fit you tough.
It's a funny business where nowyou can actually make a full
frame with 3D printed textures,post-processed and everything
for under $10.
But of course, if injectionmolded it's probably a buck but
(59:40):
they sell it for $ed, it'sprobably a buck, but they sell
it for $300, $400, $500 for aframe, it's the world's biggest
rip-off.
So I think 3D printed eyewearonce one of the larger companies
implements it, I think it'llchange a lot.
Yes, it actually kind of hasthat kind of tincture that we
(01:00:04):
just talked about Right now it'severybody's pitching the
uniqueness, the fashion, thedesign and stuff, not that you
can get a frame that fits yourface perfectly in under a week
in any size that fits you Iactually think they're pushing
(01:00:26):
the the uniqueness.
Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
yes, I also think it doesn't um disapprove our theory
that 3d printing for eyewear is.
I mean, fashion is a fastchanging thing, so one day you
one shape, the next day you'regoing to want another, and it's
actually good for the businessif you think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Yeah, but I just went through this myself.
I had my eyes surgery years agoand finally ended up meeting
readers.
Now I need progressive readersand it's a pain in the ass to go
in and they've got hundreds offrames on the wall.
So it's okay, I want these thistype, this type, this type and
(01:01:09):
this size.
And it quickly comes down tolike four or five pair on a
whole wall of frames.
That actually fit me.
And do you like any of them?
Well, no, this one I like, butthe frame's not exactly the
right size, but it's good enough.
And so you end up with yourglasses slipping down your nose
all the time.
(01:01:31):
I have the same issue.
Yeah Well, and then there's theAsian face, and the.
African-american face verydifferent nose bridges and
different fits.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I can only buy Japanese frames because our nose
bridge is just fits.
That's right.
I can only buy Japanese framesbecause they, you know, our nose
bridge is just shorter, yep.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah, I'm, I'm shocked and I think it's I'm
guessing it's because it's ownedby two or three big companies
and they don't want to mess upwhat they've already got.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
That's, that's the only reason I you know, we we
actually mentioned a company, abig company, in our conversation
so far.
That, I think, is actuallychanging the landscape a little
bit, and they also, first of all, I've noticed a lot of people
who were in 3D printing aregoing to that company, and also
this company has acquired quitea few 3D technology companies,
3d printing companies, and thatis ah, that's Meta Facebook.
Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Oh yes, yes, they have, but they're, yeah, I know.
They're not focusing on.
Yeah, they're not focusing onwhat we wanted to focus on, but
they did do a lot of acquisitioninside in this space.
They're doing some pretty coolstuff, but it's not for
progressive readers, forprogressive readers.
Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Well, if listeners, if you want to start a cool
startup, call me, because I aminterested in starting a company
in the space if opportunityarises, if I found the right
teammate, because I need theglasses myself.
This definitely sounds a veryexciting space, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
The other one is earbuds.
So if you actually do a littlebit of research on how much
market share and what the volumeis on just the Apple AirPod
Pros I mean, it's bigger thanother huge multinational
companies it's billions andbillions, and that's with the
(01:03:21):
standard set of six differentsizes of silicon earbuds.
But if you run they fall out.
If you know your bicyclethey'll fall out, and there goes
your 400 headphones and they've.
There's been custom earbuds onthe market for a couple of
decades.
But price and fit is theproblem, because it's the same
(01:03:43):
process as giving you hearingaid, but you have to go in and
get a hundred dollar impression.
Then somebody has to take theimpression and hand make an
earbud out of it, and it's apretty skilled task and so they
end up costing between 200 and250 bucks for just an earbud.
It's like, okay, there'sthere's very little market for
(01:04:05):
that.
Uh, yeah, but with this uhcompany down in australia, h3d,
they can take a picture of yourear and design an earbud to go
on an airpod pro or any othermaybe I should write him a check
yeah, I did so.
I made a small investmentbecause I was I'd known the guy
(01:04:28):
for decades, when he was atthree shape, and this guy became
the ceo of this little companyand it was this, uh, a guy's
thesis project, using ai to dothe to complete all the things
that the camera couldn't see,and it worked.
And now they're doing dental aswell.
So dental models mainly.
(01:04:49):
It's basically taking a reallycrappy scan and making a
watertight model, filling in allthe information that's missing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yeah, no, I'm going to pin him up.
Yeah, it's really a fascinatingspace and we're reaching the
end of our conversation, Lee.
Thank you so much for cominghere today.
Now any final word to advisefor the future generation,
people who are either in 3Dprinting or just in the
university.
Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Persistence pays off.
It pays off more often than not.
If you really think anapplication is suitable for
production, stick with it andfind an industry champion to
share your thoughts with you.
Not all will cross the chasm,so you have to keep several of
these things going at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
All right With that.
Thank you so much, lee.
Great conversation.
I'm sure I'll invite you backfor another conversation and
talk about our investment andobservations of this world.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
All righty.
Thanks for having me.
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