Join the conversation with Jalen Gonel, the brain behind Breadcrumbs.ai, as we unravel the threads of complexity in learning and entrepreneurship. Imagine a world where the intricate becomes attainable, where AI is your ally on a transformative journey through knowledge—this is the essence of Jalen's vision. In a heartfelt discussion, we trace Jalen's personal evolution from an introverted thinker to a pioneering force in tech, highlighting the pivotal role of self-education and emotional intelligence in crafting solutions that resonate deeply with human needs. As we navigate his narrative, we uncover insights into the art of connecting with others, the power of empathy, and the significance of solving real-world problems through intuitive and innovative thinking.
What if the path to your dreams was not strewn with obstacles but paved with ease? We question the traditional mantra of 'no pain, no gain' and invite you to consider an alternative approach to achieving your aspirations. In this episode, we dissect the creative process, contrasting meticulous planning with the allure of spontaneity, and offer guidance to all visionaries yearning to bring their ideas to life. Delve into a philosophy where meaningful pursuits are guided by your own North Star, and where the genuine effort is not a bid against failure but a peaceful endeavor towards living without regrets. Our dialogue with Jalen promises to not only inspire but also provide you with the mindset to forge your own path, illuminated by purpose and the courage to share your story with the world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Okay, hello and welcome to another episode of
the Leader Brew.
I am Dr Rick Auerwood and I amyour host for today.
As I always say, I'm so excitedto bring you yet another story
from another former student, butI will say this time I am
really excited.
I think it's going to be afascinating topic, not only from
(00:41):
what's facing us all today withthe influx of AI technology,
machine learning, robots and allof that sort of stuff, but I
want to also spend some timewith my guest today talking
about that human side, talkingabout what makes him motivated.
Where is that confidence comingfrom?
(01:02):
What's that conviction?
So it is my pleasure to welcometoday to the Leader Brew
podcast my former student,jaylin Goodell, from
breadcrumbai.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So welcome.
Yes, yes, yes, professor, it issuch a pleasure.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
I've listened to a bunch ofyour podcasts and it's honestly
an honor to be on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That's fantastic and I think it's going to be really
exciting to where we cancertainly talk about breadcrumbs
and that whole platform thatyou've put together.
I did an attempt at trying tosimplify an explanation for our
listeners of what breadcrumbs is.
(01:46):
I'm going to test it out on youand see how close, if at all, I
came and I come up with the.
This is my sort of whatbreadcrumbsai is.
It's like gathering breadcrumbsto piece together like a loaf
of bread.
How close did I come in that?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I want to say you hit the nail right on the head
right there.
I mean, that's exactly wherethe name comes from.
The goal with breadcrumbs isessentially to make complex
topics simple by breaking themup into little, small, little
chunks to create a path tolearning and understanding.
I guess like a trail ofbreadcrumbs, but using the power
(02:29):
of connection, or connectingideas through the power of AI to
get you to your goal faster andyeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I think sometimes we're looking at AI and
leadership and new productscoming at us every day, and
yesterday was the text to videoprogram that will eventually
come out, and I was just sittingon the couch listening to this
and I thought to myself, okay,now this is something new, this
is something different, and itfeels as though it's getting
(03:02):
overwhelming.
I think, in some respects, whatI'm interested in is really
less about the technology andmore about you.
What motivates you to do thiswork?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very good question, I mean.
I think, first and foremost, Ithink, with everything, if you
really want to do I mean to doanything right there has to be
some motivation behind that.
And to do bigger things andtake up a lot of time, take a
lot of sacrifice out of yourlife and other things that you
could be doing, it takes areally large amount of
(03:43):
motivation.
I guess it's twofold.
So the first was I grew up veryshy, anxious, nervous, but I
did love to build things.
I remember in the third grade Ibuilt like a 6,000 piece like
Taj Mahal set.
In high school I wasprogramming with like a VR
headset.
So the Apple Vision Pro isgetting a demo of that.
(04:06):
Crazy, how much time has gone by.
In like you know, past sevenyears I had after getting into
college, I basically told myselfI'm done like being a scared of
the world.
I want to get.
I want to give myself theeducation that I guess I hadn't
gotten in school about life, howto communicate, how to make
(04:27):
myself better, how to articulate, how to just, I guess, feel
confident to do what I set mymind to.
And you know there's lots ofdifferent areas in which I mean,
it's everything from, like, thetactics of conversation to the,
I guess, the psychologicalaspect of it.
But from that period of time,which I about three months to
(04:49):
being in college, I went from,you know, maybe having like me,
like well talking and being ableto talk to, I guess, so many
people, and that opened up somany opportunities for me.
I mean, and I remember my 18thbirthday I had maybe seven
people outside my, I guess, likefamily.
It's a happy birthday to me.
And then that next year I hadlike well over 100.
(05:11):
And that was one of the firstvery strong moments for me, when
I realized that giving yourselfthe education that may not have
just sort of come in front ofyou is like the key to unlocking
power in yourself orreimagining the way that you
could change your world and theway that you wanted to.
And I thought that was anamazing feeling and I wanted to,
you know, create that insomething or in others.
(05:35):
But that was freshman year, andso I take a little break and
there's quarantine, right, and Iguess I'd fallen off that path
and someone had said, you knowyou're very emotionally
unintelligent.
I took that more seriously andso during quarantine I mean most
of those books over there Ispent reading If I disagreed
(05:56):
with someone, if I didn't knowwhat I could say about a given
group of people, if I couldn'tget what it is what it was about
, them maybe want to understandthem more, and it was with this
heuristic that you know, I justwant to be an entrepreneur and
if I understand people then Ican understand their problems.
If I understand their problems,then there's some value
(06:20):
somewhere that can come fromthat, like that understanding
along with being able to, Iguess, understand people better,
such that I can connect withthem better and just be able to
say something that resonates, orbe able to get to something
that resonates.
I mean then I guess this is thethird part, but big in San
(06:43):
Francisco.
I was there for about sixmonths ago.
I just wanted to seeentrepreneurship, and you may
not see it over there, but overthere you'll see a leash wrapped
in rope.
Was it that you'd wear aroundyour leash as you're surfing?
It was the end of ourpresentations, the end of the
semester in San Francisco.
I was surfing in Maui and Ithought, oh, wow, pretty cool.
(07:05):
Well, out of all the things Iexpected to happen, I didn't
expect the leash to actuallybreak, snap in the middle of the
ocean while I was fighting arip current and take my board
all the way to the ocean.
And it was quite a near-deathexperience.
Had there not been a surfinstructor who swam all the way
(07:25):
to shore, grabbed my board, swamback and got me, I don't think
I'd be here.
And it is those and I've read alot about the idea of
near-death experiences and howthey can really bring clarity to
your life.
It was in that moment.
It was like, ok, well, what doI want to do?
And it was starting off with ajust to make as many mistakes as
(07:50):
possible clothing line withinNortheastern.
But then, when I saw I wasplaying with chatGPT, I bounced
on this idea of leverage andrealizing, oh my gosh, this
thing is pretty cool, this thingis just utility incarnate.
And I was just trying to testit, asking questions, and I was
(08:11):
asking this really obscuresubject in psychology Termin's
termites, basically this guy whodid a study just to test IQ.
But Termin's termites?
It refers to the 1,000 childrenthat he had watched over 40
years to see how their liveswould play out based on their IQ
.
And this came from giving250,000 kids IQ tests.
(08:36):
But I realized in that moment Icouldn't even begin to ask that
question if I didn't even knowthe word, the term Termin's
termites and I thought, ok, asthe area of our knowledge grows,
so greater does the perimeterof our ignorance.
(08:56):
So how could I create a way toexpand that area of knowledge
such that you could get intosomething, you could learn
something and just get exposedto the topics, to the subjects,
to the real aspect of learning,which is through connection,
through play.
(09:18):
We learn really well in terms ofplay, in terms of being out in
our environment, because, yes,there is some structure, but
when you're forced to haveunpredictable situations, to
things, you're able to buildmultiple connections, you're
able to build those synapses inyour brain such that you can
just comprehend it because yourmind has recalled all these
(09:40):
previous sort of test cases.
And okay, long story short.
Okay, connection, bringing thatidea of connection into
learning and using the utilityof AI, which is just the power
of thought, but using that suchthat, based on the individual,
it could unlock, explain andconnect whatever it is that they
(10:00):
wanted to learn, and there'snothing that would allow more
than learning and learning and Ithink as well applying sort of
your mind mapping of thosebreadcrumbs, those
interconnected possibilities andinterrelated perhaps, and I
(10:21):
think that's something that hasbeen a big part of your makeup.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Now you have this opportunity, through technology,
to get it sort of out of thehead and onto something tangible
, something that others canexperience as well, because, as
you're talking and I'm quitesure the listeners were thinking
as well here's someone that'sreally motivated, very
passionate about what they'redoing, and I think sometimes we
(10:48):
get lost in the details and weforget to sort of take a higher
view up and say, okay, what didI just say?
What am I really saying?
And I think the one thing aboutyou is that, yes, you can
provide us with details.
Clearly, I've seen your TikToks, with the showy, the diagrams
(11:09):
written on the board, thecomplexities associated with
that.
It doesn't look anything likemy to-do list, by the way.
Mine is much more linear, but Ithink what's really really
exciting is that thing you'rebringing forward.
I suppose the question reallybecomes do you think that people
(11:32):
are born with confidence or doyou think that's just something
that they gain over a course oftime?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, for example well, I think
the real answer is much grarer,but I mean maybe in the near
future, with how AI is able tosort of like work and think and
solve all these problems, we'llprobably get the real answer.
My personal belief is that it'sa mixture, but I think humans
(12:04):
are sort of like rewritablesoftware in that we're born with
, I guess, some predispositionswe're born with, I guess what
our genetic makeup says thatwe're in some ways predisposed
to be.
For example, I have arelatively well, very low
temperament.
I get that from my fatherbecause he has a very low
temperament.
I recognize that him and I havea certain empathy towards
people that my uncles and myeven my mom and my sister cannot
(12:29):
understand, but we just bothreally resonate and I really
love that about him.
I think that's one of the bestthings I've gotten from him,
because that low temperament hasactually allowed me to have a
greater sense of empathy,because it makes me really
consider the other person asopposed to just instinctively
getting mad.
But I think that confidence Ionce heard from a very wise
(12:52):
person that you know confidenceis building an unshakable stack
of proof that you are who yousay you are and at the same time
, right, you know, it justinherently takes experience.
Right, it takes trials andtribulations, it takes the
ability to do hard things andthe hard things.
(13:14):
The hard thing about hardthings is that, like it's not
easy, it builds adversity, butit's essential because, you know
, I think I've worked very hardwithin myself in my life where I
don't care about what anyonesays about me.
I mean, I do obviously like inthe sense of like for a product,
did I make the correct productsuch that I'm able to cater to
(13:36):
my customer, my archetype.
But just in a, I guess in ahigher sense, right, I am like
I'm not anything, but I'm notnothing either.
Right, I'm the one who decidesthe way I want to live my life.
And I think that that reallyjust comes from like those
(14:01):
really hard, I guess, 20 secondsof courage and like being
willing to go the other way and,you know, against the crowd.
And it may not be a reallystrong moment initially, right,
it may not be like willing tostand up, you know, against
everyone for a given belief.
Right, being ostracizedpublicly in front of like
(14:21):
hundreds.
It may not be that.
It could start off justsomething like, really seriously
, just as simple as I'm going toorder this on the menu that
I've never ordered before, right?
That little like that littlesort of battle, right Can be
like the hardest victories forsomebody, and we never know that
.
But it takes being willing tothink different, to do different
(14:43):
, to act different, over andover and over again, to the
point that's beaten into youthat, yeah, I may be wrong,
right, but I'm confident, basedon what I know, based on the
time I've had, that this is thecorrect answer.
And yes, people are sayingthings and, yes, they're very
smart, yes, they're smarter thanme, yes, they're saying this,
but based on this and this, Ibelieve this.
I could be wrong.
I want to test this hypothesisand I'm confident enough to at
(15:05):
least be willing to try.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
That's wonderful.
Let me sort of pick up on that,but take us back back in time,
two years ago.
Let's go back to just a shortperiod of time it seems like a
couple of years and I think oneof the things that people would
be interested to know is how doyou take something that's sort
of twirling around in your head,something that in your mind you
(15:28):
can obviously see, and then howdo you actually go about
getting it out there, getting itworked on, making that plan?
Is it where you say, okay,here's my calendar for the next
12 months and I'm gonna do thisin month one and this in month
two and this in month three, oris it more?
(15:48):
I'm just gonna get on thishorse and I'm just gonna ride it
and see where I end up at?
I mean, I guess what I'm reallyasking is if someone is out
there that has some sort of anidea it doesn't have to be AI,
of course, but whatever that maybe how do you actually make
that happen?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Good question.
Yeah, I think it's a milliondollar question right For this
person who I'm saying this to.
Have they ever made anythingbefore?
Or probably not really, becauseI think that changes things.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh, in my hypothetical yeah.
No, let's just say they're likemost college students, just
trugging along ultimatelygetting their degree.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So I think that there's, like, I guess, the
deeper sense and then there's,like this quote, unquote, in
reality sense, right, in thereality sense.
One of the best questions Iever learned was from Tim Tim
Ferriss.
He had an essay called what ifit was easy?
Right and how.
Whenever we do anything right,we tell ourselves there's a
(16:58):
certain amount of effort andtime and sacrifice that has to
go into something.
But often that's what we'vetold ourselves is the feeling in
our gut of, like, you know, theanxiety or like the, you know,
overcaffeinated surge, right, aburnout, right.
We need to feel that in orderto feel like we've done the
effort we need.
But often it's not the case.
What if it was easy?
What if I had a day?
(17:19):
What if I had, you know, threedays?
What if I had an hour?
What would this look like?
Right, because obviously it'snot going to be perfect.
You are an individual and ifit's your first project, it's
going to be awful, right, I meanlike.
I mean with the exception that,like I mean, some people are
just, you know, born, you know,like geniuses.
But I think that that'sactually much more subjective
(17:42):
term and much more made Right.
Even in your first iteration itwill be awful from what you
imagine and envisioned in yourhead, but to be willing to put
it out there, to be willing toshow it to people, hey, what do
you think Right, even okay andlike, if it takes having to work
on it, a bit sort of quote,unquote learning in public,
(18:02):
right, posting something on likea page that you don't really
have, like your family andfriends you know there to judge
you on, I think.
I think I think it's actually avery strong component.
It really seriously is thepeople that you're around to
determine who you become right,because, like, even though you
have family and friends whoreally, truly, truly seriously
mean the best for you, it's inthose very impressionable
(18:22):
moments when you're creatingsomething new that you never
have before, that people's wordsare the most powerful and you
need to be able to either bestrong enough to rise against it
, but it's, it's.
It's often much harder right,like, even just a slight little
jab or social ridicule towardswhat someone's done, that that
first thing they've done istheir entire identity Right, and
(18:44):
it's only until you make morethings does that does, like the
given thing, you do become lessof an identity in comparison to
your previous track record.
So it's, I mean, honestly, just, I guess, just just putting
stuff out.
I think in the deeper sense, itsimply would be really think
about, okay, who are you?
What do you want in your life,right?
Are you someone who is willingto say no, I don't want to do
(19:07):
this, I'd rather do somethingelse, I don't want it enough?
That's a very valid answer tosay I don't want it enough,
right?
I think we, you know, we havethis culture of like ambition
and do, do, do, but you knowit's it's even more important to
say I don't want to do this,this thing, that thing, because
then it really clears your mindup.
(19:27):
I think that it really justtakes a much deeper sense of why
am I doing this?
I mean, I actually was talkingwith my friend who's also an
entrepreneur, and we, I guess,traded in terms of this, like
our personal philosophies.
I'm, I guess I'm much morebiased towards the idea of, of
meaning, but my idea of that isjust, is just a North Star,
right?
Why am I doing this?
Because this it could be forany reason, right.
(19:48):
Because I want to, because Imean for me, another one is I
have this serious fear that whenI'm like old and, like you know
, on a rocking chair and I lookback on my life and the
opportunities I had when I wastoo scared to do what I had the
really clear capability to do,even just to fail, and to look
(20:09):
on, to look back on that withregret.
I have a few experiences likethat and it hurts.
But the idea that the end of mylife I would feel that scares
me.
To like say you know what if I,at least I try, because I've
had experiences where you knowwhat, if I tried, fine, you know
what, I did everything I couldand it wasn't good enough.
That's cool, at least I tried.
But to not scares me.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think that's really interesting because that is
really where you find the solacein trying it, giving it serious
consideration, because you'reright, as life goes on, in a
stage of life I'll just saylater stage at this point you
know, you do sort of sit and say, well, you know, when I was in
my twenties I should have, Icould have, and it's not such
(20:55):
the level of regret, but it's tothat level of, well, maybe I
could have done more.
And so I think that takes usback sort of to that achieving
part.
Okay, hello and welcome to another episode of
the Leader Brew.
I am Dr Rick Auerwood and I amyour host for today.
As I always say, I'm so excitedto bring you yet another story
from another former student, butI will say this time I am
really excited.
I think it's going to be afascinating topic, not only from
(00:41):
what's facing us all today withthe influx of AI technology,
machine learning, robots and allof that sort of stuff, but I
want to also spend some timewith my guest today talking
about that human side, talkingabout what makes him motivated.
Where is that confidence comingfrom?
(01:02):
What's that conviction?
So it is my pleasure to welcometoday to the Leader Brew
podcast my former student,jaylin Goodell, from
breadcrumbai.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So welcome.
Yes, yes, yes, professor, it issuch a pleasure.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
I've listened to a bunch ofyour podcasts and it's honestly
an honor to be on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That's fantastic and I think it's going to be really
exciting to where we cancertainly talk about breadcrumbs
and that whole platform thatyou've put together.
I did an attempt at trying tosimplify an explanation for our
listeners of what breadcrumbs is.
(01:46):
I'm going to test it out on youand see how close, if at all, I
came and I come up with the.
This is my sort of whatbreadcrumbsai is.
It's like gathering breadcrumbsto piece together like a loaf
of bread.
How close did I come in that?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I want to say you hit the nail right on the head
right there.
I mean, that's exactly wherethe name comes from.
The goal with breadcrumbs isessentially to make complex
topics simple by breaking themup into little, small, little
chunks to create a path tolearning and understanding.
I guess like a trail ofbreadcrumbs, but using the power
(02:29):
of connection, or connectingideas through the power of AI to
get you to your goal faster andyeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I think sometimes we're looking at AI and
leadership and new productscoming at us every day, and
yesterday was the text to videoprogram that will eventually
come out, and I was just sittingon the couch listening to this
and I thought to myself, okay,now this is something new, this
is something different, and itfeels as though it's getting
(03:02):
overwhelming.
I think, in some respects, whatI'm interested in is really
less about the technology andmore about you.
What motivates you to do thiswork?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very good question, I mean.
I think, first and foremost, Ithink, with everything, if you
really want to do I mean to doanything right there has to be
some motivation behind that.
And to do bigger things andtake up a lot of time, take a
lot of sacrifice out of yourlife and other things that you
could be doing, it takes areally large amount of
(03:43):
motivation.
I guess it's twofold.
So the first was I grew up veryshy, anxious, nervous, but I
did love to build things.
I remember in the third grade Ibuilt like a 6,000 piece like
Taj Mahal set.
In high school I wasprogramming with like a VR
headset.
So the Apple Vision Pro isgetting a demo of that.
(04:06):
Crazy, how much time has gone by.
In like you know, past sevenyears I had after getting into
college, I basically told myselfI'm done like being a scared of
the world.
I want to get.
I want to give myself theeducation that I guess I hadn't
gotten in school about life, howto communicate, how to make
(04:27):
myself better, how to articulate, how to just, I guess, feel
confident to do what I set mymind to.
And you know there's lots ofdifferent areas in which I mean,
it's everything from, like, thetactics of conversation to the,
I guess, the psychologicalaspect of it.
But from that period of time,which I about three months to
(04:49):
being in college, I went from,you know, maybe having like me,
like well talking and being ableto talk to, I guess, so many
people, and that opened up somany opportunities for me.
I mean, and I remember my 18thbirthday I had maybe seven
people outside my, I guess, likefamily.
It's a happy birthday to me.
And then that next year I hadlike well over 100.
(05:11):
And that was one of the firstvery strong moments for me, when
I realized that giving yourselfthe education that may not have
just sort of come in front ofyou is like the key to unlocking
power in yourself orreimagining the way that you
could change your world and theway that you wanted to.
And I thought that was anamazing feeling and I wanted to,
you know, create that insomething or in others.
(05:35):
But that was freshman year, andso I take a little break and
there's quarantine, right, and Iguess I'd fallen off that path
and someone had said, you knowyou're very emotionally
unintelligent.
I took that more seriously andso during quarantine I mean most
of those books over there Ispent reading If I disagreed
(05:56):
with someone, if I didn't knowwhat I could say about a given
group of people, if I couldn'tget what it is what it was about
, them maybe want to understandthem more, and it was with this
heuristic that you know, I justwant to be an entrepreneur and
if I understand people then Ican understand their problems.
If I understand their problems,then there's some value
(06:20):
somewhere that can come fromthat, like that understanding
along with being able to, Iguess, understand people better,
such that I can connect withthem better and just be able to
say something that resonates, orbe able to get to something
that resonates.
I mean then I guess this is thethird part, but big in San
(06:43):
Francisco.
I was there for about sixmonths ago.
I just wanted to seeentrepreneurship, and you may
not see it over there, but overthere you'll see a leash wrapped
in rope.
Was it that you'd wear aroundyour leash as you're surfing?
It was the end of ourpresentations, the end of the
semester in San Francisco.
I was surfing in Maui and Ithought, oh, wow, pretty cool.
(07:05):
Well, out of all the things Iexpected to happen, I didn't
expect the leash to actuallybreak, snap in the middle of the
ocean while I was fighting arip current and take my board
all the way to the ocean.
And it was quite a near-deathexperience.
Had there not been a surfinstructor who swam all the way
(07:25):
to shore, grabbed my board, swamback and got me, I don't think
I'd be here.
And it is those and I've read alot about the idea of
near-death experiences and howthey can really bring clarity to
your life.
It was in that moment.
It was like, ok, well, what doI want to do?
And it was starting off with ajust to make as many mistakes as
(07:50):
possible clothing line withinNortheastern.
But then, when I saw I wasplaying with chatGPT, I bounced
on this idea of leverage andrealizing, oh my gosh, this
thing is pretty cool, this thingis just utility incarnate.
And I was just trying to testit, asking questions, and I was
(08:11):
asking this really obscuresubject in psychology Termin's
termites, basically this guy whodid a study just to test IQ.
But Termin's termites?
It refers to the 1,000 childrenthat he had watched over 40
years to see how their liveswould play out based on their IQ
.
And this came from giving250,000 kids IQ tests.
(08:36):
But I realized in that moment Icouldn't even begin to ask that
question if I didn't even knowthe word, the term Termin's
termites and I thought, ok, asthe area of our knowledge grows,
so greater does the perimeterof our ignorance.
(08:56):
So how could I create a way toexpand that area of knowledge
such that you could get intosomething, you could learn
something and just get exposedto the topics, to the subjects,
to the real aspect of learning,which is through connection,
through play.
(09:18):
We learn really well in terms ofplay, in terms of being out in
our environment, because, yes,there is some structure, but
when you're forced to haveunpredictable situations, to
things, you're able to buildmultiple connections, you're
able to build those synapses inyour brain such that you can
just comprehend it because yourmind has recalled all these
(09:40):
previous sort of test cases.
And okay, long story short.
Okay, connection, bringing thatidea of connection into
learning and using the utilityof AI, which is just the power
of thought, but using that suchthat, based on the individual,
it could unlock, explain andconnect whatever it is that they
(10:00):
wanted to learn, and there'snothing that would allow more
than learning and learning and Ithink as well applying sort of
your mind mapping of thosebreadcrumbs, those
interconnected possibilities andinterrelated perhaps, and I
(10:21):
think that's something that hasbeen a big part of your makeup.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Now you have this opportunity, through technology,
to get it sort of out of thehead and onto something tangible
, something that others canexperience as well, because, as
you're talking and I'm quitesure the listeners were thinking
as well here's someone that'sreally motivated, very
passionate about what they'redoing, and I think sometimes we
(10:48):
get lost in the details and weforget to sort of take a higher
view up and say, okay, what didI just say?
What am I really saying?
And I think the one thing aboutyou is that, yes, you can
provide us with details.
Clearly, I've seen your TikToks, with the showy, the diagrams
(11:09):
written on the board, thecomplexities associated with
that.
It doesn't look anything likemy to-do list, by the way.
Mine is much more linear, but Ithink what's really really
exciting is that thing you'rebringing forward.
I suppose the question reallybecomes do you think that people
(11:32):
are born with confidence or doyou think that's just something
that they gain over a course oftime?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, for example well, I think
the real answer is much grarer,but I mean maybe in the near
future, with how AI is able tosort of like work and think and
solve all these problems, we'llprobably get the real answer.
My personal belief is that it'sa mixture, but I think humans
(12:04):
are sort of like rewritablesoftware in that we're born with
, I guess, some predispositionswe're born with, I guess what
our genetic makeup says thatwe're in some ways predisposed
to be.
For example, I have arelatively well, very low
temperament.
I get that from my fatherbecause he has a very low
temperament.
I recognize that him and I havea certain empathy towards
people that my uncles and myeven my mom and my sister cannot
(12:29):
understand, but we just bothreally resonate and I really
love that about him.
I think that's one of the bestthings I've gotten from him,
because that low temperament hasactually allowed me to have a
greater sense of empathy,because it makes me really
consider the other person asopposed to just instinctively
getting mad.
But I think that confidence Ionce heard from a very wise
(12:52):
person that you know confidenceis building an unshakable stack
of proof that you are who yousay you are and at the same time
, right, you know, it justinherently takes experience.
Right, it takes trials andtribulations, it takes the
ability to do hard things andthe hard things.
(13:14):
The hard thing about hardthings is that, like it's not
easy, it builds adversity, butit's essential because, you know
, I think I've worked very hardwithin myself in my life where I
don't care about what anyonesays about me.
I mean, I do obviously like inthe sense of like for a product,
did I make the correct productsuch that I'm able to cater to
(13:36):
my customer, my archetype.
But just in a, I guess in ahigher sense, right, I am like
I'm not anything, but I'm notnothing either.
Right, I'm the one who decidesthe way I want to live my life.
And I think that that reallyjust comes from like those
(14:01):
really hard, I guess, 20 secondsof courage and like being
willing to go the other way and,you know, against the crowd.
And it may not be a reallystrong moment initially, right,
it may not be like willing tostand up, you know, against
everyone for a given belief.
Right, being ostracizedpublicly in front of like
(14:21):
hundreds.
It may not be that.
It could start off justsomething like, really seriously
, just as simple as I'm going toorder this on the menu that
I've never ordered before, right?
That little like that littlesort of battle, right Can be
like the hardest victories forsomebody, and we never know that
.
But it takes being willing tothink different, to do different
(14:43):
, to act different, over andover and over again, to the
point that's beaten into youthat, yeah, I may be wrong,
right, but I'm confident, basedon what I know, based on the
time I've had, that this is thecorrect answer.
And yes, people are sayingthings and, yes, they're very
smart, yes, they're smarter thanme, yes, they're saying this,
but based on this and this, Ibelieve this.
I could be wrong.
I want to test this hypothesisand I'm confident enough to at
(15:05):
least be willing to try.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
That's wonderful.
Let me sort of pick up on that,but take us back back in time,
two years ago.
Let's go back to just a shortperiod of time it seems like a
couple of years and I think oneof the things that people would
be interested to know is how doyou take something that's sort
of twirling around in your head,something that in your mind you
(15:28):
can obviously see, and then howdo you actually go about
getting it out there, getting itworked on, making that plan?
Is it where you say, okay,here's my calendar for the next
12 months and I'm gonna do thisin month one and this in month
two and this in month three, oris it more?
(15:48):
I'm just gonna get on thishorse and I'm just gonna ride it
and see where I end up at?
I mean, I guess what I'm reallyasking is if someone is out
there that has some sort of anidea it doesn't have to be AI,
of course, but whatever that maybe how do you actually make
that happen?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Good question.
Yeah, I think it's a milliondollar question right For this
person who I'm saying this to.
Have they ever made anythingbefore?
Or probably not really, becauseI think that changes things.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh, in my hypothetical yeah.
No, let's just say they're likemost college students, just
trugging along ultimatelygetting their degree.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So I think that there's, like, I guess, the
deeper sense and then there's,like this quote, unquote, in
reality sense, right, in thereality sense.
One of the best questions Iever learned was from Tim Tim
Ferriss.
He had an essay called what ifit was easy?
Right and how.
Whenever we do anything right,we tell ourselves there's a
(16:58):
certain amount of effort andtime and sacrifice that has to
go into something.
But often that's what we'vetold ourselves is the feeling in
our gut of, like, you know, theanxiety or like the, you know,
overcaffeinated surge, right, aburnout, right.
We need to feel that in orderto feel like we've done the
effort we need.
But often it's not the case.
What if it was easy?
What if I had a day?
(17:19):
What if I had, you know, threedays?
What if I had an hour?
What would this look like?
Right, because obviously it'snot going to be perfect.
You are an individual and ifit's your first project, it's
going to be awful, right, I meanlike.
I mean with the exception that,like I mean, some people are
just, you know, born, you know,like geniuses.
But I think that that'sactually much more subjective
(17:42):
term and much more made Right.
Even in your first iteration itwill be awful from what you
imagine and envisioned in yourhead, but to be willing to put
it out there, to be willing toshow it to people, hey, what do
you think Right, even okay andlike, if it takes having to work
on it, a bit sort of quote,unquote learning in public,
(18:02):
right, posting something on likea page that you don't really
have, like your family andfriends you know there to judge
you on, I think.
I think I think it's actually avery strong component.
It really seriously is thepeople that you're around to
determine who you become right,because, like, even though you
have family and friends whoreally, truly, truly seriously
mean the best for you, it's inthose very impressionable
(18:22):
moments when you're creatingsomething new that you never
have before, that people's wordsare the most powerful and you
need to be able to either bestrong enough to rise against it
, but it's, it's.
It's often much harder right,like, even just a slight little
jab or social ridicule towardswhat someone's done, that that
first thing they've done istheir entire identity Right, and
(18:44):
it's only until you make morethings does that does, like the
given thing, you do become lessof an identity in comparison to
your previous track record.
So it's, I mean, honestly, just, I guess, just just putting
stuff out.
I think in the deeper sense, itsimply would be really think
about, okay, who are you?
What do you want in your life,right?
Are you someone who is willingto say no, I don't want to do
(19:07):
this, I'd rather do somethingelse, I don't want it enough?
That's a very valid answer tosay I don't want it enough,
right?
I think we, you know, we havethis culture of like ambition
and do, do, do, but you knowit's it's even more important to
say I don't want to do this,this thing, that thing, because
then it really clears your mindup.
(19:27):
I think that it really justtakes a much deeper sense of why
am I doing this?
I mean, I actually was talkingwith my friend who's also an
entrepreneur, and we, I guess,traded in terms of this, like
our personal philosophies.
I'm, I guess I'm much morebiased towards the idea of, of
meaning, but my idea of that isjust, is just a North Star,
right?
Why am I doing this?
Because this it could be forany reason, right.
(19:48):
Because I want to, because Imean for me, another one is I
have this serious fear that whenI'm like old and, like you know
, on a rocking chair and I lookback on my life and the
opportunities I had when I wastoo scared to do what I had the
really clear capability to do,even just to fail, and to look
(20:09):
on, to look back on that withregret.
I have a few experiences likethat and it hurts.
But the idea that the end of mylife I would feel that scares
me.
To like say you know what if I,at least I try, because I've
had experiences where you knowwhat, if I tried, fine, you know
what, I did everything I couldand it wasn't good enough.
That's cool, at least I tried.
But to not scares me.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I think that's really interesting because that is
really where you find the solacein trying it, giving it serious
consideration, because you'reright, as life goes on, in a
stage of life I'll just saylater stage at this point you
know, you do sort of sit and say, well, you know, when I was in
my twenties I should have, Icould have, and it's not such
(20:55):
the level of regret, but it's tothat level of, well, maybe I
could have done more.
And so I think that takes usback sort of to that achieving
part.
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