August 23, 2022 • 38 mins
The very best leaders are selfless – they care about helping others, both at work and in society. These leaders of consequence define their own social legacy – something that leaves the world a little bit better. In this episode we chat with McCann China CEO Emily Chang about her social legacy, her book The Spare Room, and how having a social legacy makes you a better leader inside and outside of the boardroom.
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Jason Goldberg (00:00):
Leaders set vision and strategy and
influence and shepherd othersalong the journey to achieve
that vision. The very bestleaders are selfless. They care
about helping others both atwork and in society. core to the
essence of being a Triple Threatleader is being a leader of
consequence. This is someone whorecognizes that success in the
(00:22):
boardroom, that success in theoperating room. That success in
the political arena isinextricably linked to deeply
furthering and supporting asocial cause. Welcome
Voiceover (00:35):
to the leaders perspective podcast where we
talk to Triple Threat leadersabout the people products,
trends and experiences thatinfluence business. I'm now
pleased to introduce your host,Jason Goldberg.
Jason Goldberg (00:57):
Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast
where we engage with TripleThreat leaders to learn about
their lives, careers andleadership philosophies, and
chat with our guests about a hottopic in society. As a reminder,
a Triple Threat leader is onewho embodies the very best of
leadership and who has strong IQEQ and DQ intelligence quotient,
(01:19):
emotional quotient and decencyquotient. I am thrilled to
welcome Emily Chang, executivespeaker, author and influencer.
Emily is the CEO of McCannworldgroup Chyna and previously
served as Chief MarketingOfficer for Starbucks China, and
the Chief Commercial Officer forInterContinental Hotels group in
(01:39):
China. Earlier in her career,she led retail marketing for
Apple in Asia Pacific, and beganher career with 11 years at
Procter and Gamble. She is aprolific speaker having
delivered three TED Talks andspoke at fortunes most powerful
Women's Summit, Emily earned herBA and MBA from the University
(01:59):
of Rochester. She is also thebest selling author of the spare
room and amazing and influentialbook, where she discusses her
journey and supporting nearly 20people who needed a helping
hand. She not only talks aboutvalues based leadership, but she
describes her journey in findingand defining her own social
(02:21):
legacy. Emily, thank you forjoining us today on the leaders
perspective.
Emily Chang (02:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jason Goldberg (02:29):
So where in the world can we find you today?
Emily Chang (02:31):
Today, I'm in Los Angeles, I came on a very
whirlwind tour of the UnitedStates with my daughter, and
then ended up having our flightcanceled. So we're here for a
little while longer thanexpected, but really trying to
enjoy this wonderful place whilewe're here.
Jason Goldberg (02:46):
Awesome, very nice. And how it's traveled in
your to and from China over thelast few months.
Emily Chang (02:52):
It has not been so much. So I went out to China
about two years ago and frankly,didn't even endeavor to leave
the country because I knew itwould be difficult to come back.
In fact, this summer when webooked our trip, it was only
because we had seen more peoplecoming back and everything
seemed like it was starting tohit a rhythm. But there's always
the unexpected.
Jason Goldberg (03:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Awesome. Well, so let's startoff. Just tell us about
yourself. Where are you from?
What are your hobbies? You know,who's Emily?
Emily Chang (03:22):
Sure. That's always the big question. Where am I
from? I was born in the States.
I've now lived half of my adultlife in China and half in the
United States. Same with mycareer. I'm married to a Korean
American and I have a daughterwho's Korean Chinese but born in
America with an Americanpassport. So I think we're all a
little bit global citizens inthat respect. And, in fact, on a
(03:46):
first slight deviation, I thinkthis is a an interesting
conversation these days, people,especially those who are working
between China and us havesomehow felt compelled to pick
aside to I want my kid raised inChina or in the US what
education do I want and it feelslike if I make a stake in the
ground, this is where I need tobe until my kid graduates and I
(04:08):
guess I feel differently eveneven right now as I'm a little
bit stranded in Los Angeles.
What's great is we can feel likewe're home wherever we are home
may not necessarily be thecountry or the place. It's how
we define the space around us.
Jason Goldberg (04:26):
That's That's terrific. What do you what do
you do in your free time?
Emily Chang (04:31):
I love spending time with my daughter though
increasingly as she's about toturn 14 She does not always I
will take all that time that Ican get for as long as I can get
it. I love to read. I love to beoutside. And Los Angeles is
great for that. Some of thethings you forget how much you
(04:53):
enjoy when you live in Shanghaidue to weather it's the humidity
the pollution of the insanemosquito It was, it's just been
nice to be outside this lastweek. So yeah, I love working. I
love moving. I love reading, Ilove spending time with my
daughter loves spending timewith people I love enjoy talking
with you. So thank you forhaving me again.
Jason Goldberg (05:15):
I'm excited to have you on this is a great
topic that we're going to getinto. But so let's talk about
your career for a few minutes.
You've had an incrediblyaccomplished career in
marketing, you've worked acrosshospitality, retail tech. And
now you're leading a significantagency in China. How did all
that come about? Because I knowwhen you were, when we spoke a
(05:39):
few weeks ago, you were tellingme you were actually a biology
major. So how did how did youwind up in marketing?
Emily Chang (05:49):
I think it's about being open to experiences and
thinking a little bit morelaterally in terms of where we
can learn and what we mightcontribute. You know, like, as
my daughter is going into highschool, I think young people
often feel pressured to say,What am I going to be when I
grow up? We do ask thisquestion. And I'm trying really
hard not to ask young peoplethat because what a lot of
(06:11):
unnecessary pressure, if wedon't have a set goal, which, if
I may say more often than not,isn't even designed by us, but
probably by our parents, then wecan think much more broadly
about what interests us and takeeach new opportunity more as
learning than as a forward stepin my career, per se. So though,
(06:32):
I studied science, and I wasvery keen initially on being pre
med, I had a situation where Isuddenly realized that what drew
me to medicine and taking careof sick kids, is in fact, making
me very unsuitable to thiscareer. Because I don't have
that emotional distance. And youknow, what a gift to learn that
I was enrolled in med school andrealizing at that moment, this
(06:55):
can't be for me. And so Iswitched paths and went and got
my MBA instead. And I think thatwas maybe a little bit of a
brave move in some ways, becausesuddenly, you're walking away
from what you thought you wantedto be into something you don't
know. But knowing that plan A isprobably not what I want, or
it's not going to be good fit.
Certainly not even knowing whatPlan B is, it has to be a better
(07:16):
direction. And what it does isit opens more doors in a
different sort of vector. Andthat is a summary of my career.
I've never planned people reachout a lot on LinkedIn, and
they'll say, you've been indifferent industries. Tell me
how you did it. How did you planit? And frankly, none of it was
really planned. I feel verylucky. I've been recruited from
one job to the next by reallybroad minded people who can
(07:40):
probably see what I've done,what I could contribute, and are
willing to teach me the rest.
And now, go ahead.
Jason Goldberg (07:50):
No, I absolutely agree with that. It's about
style. It's about intelligence.
It's about thoughtfulness. It'sthe skills rather than the
knowledge, the knowledge cancome right that you can learn a
particular retail business, butlearning how to stand up a
business lead a team, buildstrategy execute. That's, that's
(08:12):
the skill set side. And I agreethat when you think about it
that way, it's easier to, tomove across industries.
Emily Chang (08:24):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think we may be overlyesteem and industry or a
vertical. You didn't grow up inhospitality, how can you
possibly understand ourbusiness? Or why did you come to
the agency side? They thosequestions. They're not wrong.
They're interesting. And they'recoming from a place of
curiosity, but they're alsocoming from a self inflicted
definition? For sure. You know,and maybe I don't see it as
(08:49):
changing an industry or going tothe agency side, it's more,
there's an interesting businesschallenge here, the model may be
slightly different than what I'maccustomed to. But there are
enough similarities acrosscommercial business, that the
nuances kind of make themselvesclear. And if you approach a new
opportunity with humility, andinterest to learn, and not
(09:11):
assuming what worked in yourlast role will work here. I
think you just learned so muchas you go. And in many ways that
accelerates your career path,because frankly, it's not your
goal.
Jason Goldberg (09:24):
I think you talk a lot like a consultant. In a
good way, in a good way, inthat, you know, when I when I
talk to CEOs, founders,executives, and I don't know
their business, per se, I alwaysencourage them to think about
the customer first, rather thanthe rather than the product
(09:46):
first, and it's the customer isthe journey. Getting the
customers mind, think about whois that customer what brands are
they interacting with? Where dothey work? I'm how do they earn
money? What stresses them out.
And if you really understand thecustomer, then the business and
(10:07):
the product will follow. And ifyou think about the journey that
way, and then that really movesacross industries. So, so let's,
you know, shift a little bit, Iwant to talk, I want to spend a
good amount of time talkingabout the spare room. And so I
had an opportunity to read thebook over the last few weeks.
(10:31):
It's an absolutely incrediblebook. I encourage our listeners
to download it on Amazon orWalmart. But you know, in your
words, Ken, can you tell thelisteners about the story of the
spare room?
Emily Chang (10:46):
Sure, I'll tell you a little bit about how it
started and how it evolved.
Because that's one of thelessons I shared in my my own
career journey, which is goingwith the flow in a lot of ways
and seeing what transpires, Istarted off with a desire to
share some of the stories fromour own spare room where we've
taken care of now 17 Kids,babies, young people over the
course of the last 23 years orso. But the objective itself
(11:08):
began to evolve. So it becameonly about five of those
stories. And then I startedincluding other stories from
other people all over the world,different walks of life,
different jobs, at differentlevels, because it's important
to me that people don't draw theconclusion that this is Emily's
spare room, the conclusionshould be in fact, actually,
(11:29):
this is a concept of sociallegacy. And absolutely,
everybody has something more tocontribute. And the model itself
came from a very simple mindsetof everybody has an offer
something unique, thatencapsulates our capabilities to
the previous point, ourexperiences, what we're good at
(11:49):
what we love to do ourpersonality traits. The other
side of the offer is what I'mcalling the offense, which is
that thing in the world that's alittle bit offends you, it kind
of captures your heart when yousee it, and you think somebody
has to do something about this.
And that's somebody then isprobably, so if you find the
(12:09):
intersection of your offer, andyour offense, that that middle
of the Venn diagram, I call yoursocial legacy, and legacy
defines leaving something betterthan I found it, that's it, it
doesn't have to be some very bigidea, you know, and social is
the space in which I want tohave that impact. So for me, I
started off thinking that thespare room was my social legacy.
(12:31):
And over, I had the privilege ofdoing a TEDx talk on this
subject. And it really forcesyou to think about what is my
idea worth sharing, I started torealize, over the course of
these nine months, the spareroom is a part of the offer. But
my social legacy is somethingdifferent. And as I articulated
it, it brought incredibleclarity to who I am the
(12:52):
priorities I make where I spendmy time. And it transcended how
I want to live my life at home,and how I want to live my life
at work. So that's thefundamental idea of the social
legacy. And I would love for itto become a movement where
people start asking each other,what's your social legacy?
What's your spare room, and itbecomes an amplifying effect
(13:13):
where people are then able toland on? Oh, my gosh, I do know
what I bring to the world. Ifeel confident in that. And I
know how I want to direct thatoffer. I think it can become
incredibly powerful if peoplestart kind of leaning into what
they believe that they bring tothe table and have more
confidence and how they want toleverage those those skills.
Jason Goldberg (13:35):
All right, great. Let's dive down vote,
just so that everyoneunderstands what you mean by
your spare room? For those whohaven't read the book. And you
mentioned that 17 young people.
Can you tell them what what youdo with the spare room how that
came about?
Emily Chang (13:53):
Well, I think every one of these kids has come to us
through a different way, whichis in and of itself a little bit
magical. I think the very firstgirl I've met when I was only 20
years old, and still anundergrad, she needed a safe
place to stay. I brought herhome. I didn't really know what
I was doing. It wasn't a veryintentional It wasn't even I
(14:14):
can't say like a humanitarianborn out of deep care. It was I
can't just leave this kid on theside of the road. And sometimes
we stumble into something that'smuch bigger than ourselves. So I
think you know, sometimes justsimply being willing to say yes,
sometimes simply following thatsort of instinct, your own
spirit of reaching out to thiskid and saying, I want to go
(14:36):
home, it's cold. I'm tired. Ihave so much work to do, but I
can't get myself to there's areason for that. So stop and see
if you can help in one momentbecause something I've learned
is our capacity to give tocontribute and to grow far
exceeds our wildest imagination.
So this girl came to have dinnerwith me she spent one night she
spent three a week mum And sheultimately ended up living with
(15:00):
a foster family. She thenintroduced another kid she had
met on the street, who thenmoved in with me, and on and on,
and every kid has come to usthrough a very unofficial
channel. And I think that's partof sort of the openness that
comes when you say yes to theseopportunities, those
opportunities will sort of startto find you. So our most recent
(15:22):
kid we met through, again, alink a red thread of a previous
kid we had, this kid's name isWayne and he has hydrocephalus.
He's our second little boy we'vetaken care of with
hydrocephalus. He lived with usfor about six or seven months,
and just had an incredibleprogress report in his home
living with us. And he's nowliving with a different family
(15:45):
who were very much hoping willadopt him he's doing great.
Again, similar to the first boywho Teo who I wrote about in the
book, there are a lot ofparallels, Wayne came to us and
couldn't move really couldn'tarticulate any, any words. And
now he can say a couple, he canuse his hands, he can sit up
unassisted, and just getting achance to see the development,
(16:07):
you know, and the confidencebuilding among some of these
people who we have the privilegeof caring for in our spare room
has been the most inspiringthing in my life.
Jason Goldberg (16:20):
Calling it a spare room is, is interesting,
write it because it talks aboutthe space that you can lend, but
it's so much more than thatyou're providing a sense of
safety, a sense of ability toheal. For for every one of these
kids, and and so it goes beyondthe space. And and by giving
(16:45):
them that space to heal youryour true truly changing their
life, because it's not just theroom, right? It's the it's the
safety, it's the support systembehind that that they would
never have had until they showup on your doorstep.
Emily Chang (17:03):
Jason, I think that's a great point. That was
my realization that the spareroom itself isn't my social
legacy. In fact, what we labeledit is kibou, which is a Korean
word that means comfort for thespirit. That is that is a bigger
idea. And that's what I found soempowering for my own
leadership. I mean, this startedto not only integrate with my
(17:24):
work, but it started totranscend my work because it
began shaping the kind of leaderI more intentionally want to be.
It is about creating comfort forthe spirit. And what is that in
our corporate lingo? It's D Ayay ay. Right? It's diversity,
inclusion, equity,accessibility, it's all of these
things. But in my sort of normallanguage, it is just creating a
(17:46):
comfort for the Spirit, you cancome in and you can be exactly
who you are. Present yourselfwithout a mask on and know that
you are not only accepted,you're respected. And people
want to hear from you, you'revalued. And I think that if you
can, if you can create that kindof space as a leader, that's
where people can thrive becausethey look forward to coming to
(18:06):
work instead of dreading it orthinking I don't want to be in
the workplace. I know that's ahot topic right now, whether
it's actually physically beingin the office or just being
emotionally fully engaged. Ibelieve people bring their best
when they feel like they have asense of belonging.
Jason Goldberg (18:21):
So what, let's talk about leaders for a moment,
because when we talk aboutleaders, we often think about it
in the with the connotation ofhey, their leadership, their
leader in business, inhealthcare in politics. Why is
it important for a leader tohave a social legacy?
Emily Chang (18:41):
Well, these days, everybody knows that a business
has to stand for somethingright? At McCann, we have this
truth Central. It's aintelligent operating system.
And basically, we do a lot ofresearch all over the world. And
we know that consumers globallyexpect businesses, individuals
and government to equallycontribute. That's sort of their
(19:02):
their expectation. It is nolonger the government will take
care of us it is individually,what am I going to do? And what
do I expect business to do whenI buy a brand? What do I expect
them to stand for? Where do Iexpect them to invest? These are
meaningful changes in how welook at business, the business
roundtable in I think it wasAugust 2019. Right, right. As I
(19:23):
was writing, the book came outright. Jamie Dimon and a group
of leaders kind of establisheswe have to do more than make
money, we have to stand forsomething bigger. Well, for me,
back to your question. We how dowe help businesses stand for
something more meaningful if weas leaders don't know what we
individually stand for? We haveto find congruence between who
(19:43):
we are as leaders and thebusiness that we serve and the
people that we have theopportunity to lead. We can't
find that congruence if we can'tclearly define ourselves first.
Jason Goldberg (19:55):
Can this be taught so I know this? This is
within you? It's very clear.
You're right, the moment youhave that feeling, I can't leave
this child on the street, thatthat's deep within you. That's
very personal. You know, I havea social legacy of my own. And I
volunteer in EMS for many years.
(20:17):
And, and I like to try to make adifference, you know, one one
patient at a time. So we all dothat, but that's within us. But
Can that be taught? Is thatsomething that just happens? Or?
How do you think about that?
Emily Chang (20:36):
I think he can be shaped. And I think it can be
nurtured, because fundamentally,I think everybody wants to
contribute. Very, very fewpeople say, I would like to do
nothing for anyone else, andreally just suck it all in for
myself, maybe there is the rareperson, but most people aren't
that way. And that's why I cameup with this super simple
(20:59):
diagram, this Venn diagrammodel, because what I
discovered, as I was kind ofpulling together this TEDx Talk
is people fall into one or theother camp, either. I generally
know who I am, and what I offer,but I don't know where to direct
it, the world is really big.
Right? And the other side is, Iknow the thing that pisses me
off, or the opportunity,opportunity or offense, either
(21:20):
one, I know the thing I want togo work on. But what can I do,
I'm just one person. So when youfind an ability to define who I
am, and stand firm in yourconfidence in that, equally, you
define where you want to go putyour energies. And that's why
the book as you read is verymuch a workbook in many ways.
With those reflective exercises,it's intended to help you hone
(21:40):
in on each of these things. Andthen you write your social
legacy, I really believe in thepower of communication. When I
write something down, the wordsbecome somehow cemented, it's a
commitment. And then when Ispeak those words, and share
them with somebody, what I'm nowdoing is sort of making a
promise, because now others haveheard those words, and they can
(22:01):
hold me accountable to them. Sohelping people identify their
social legacy, I think is areally powerful way to serve
people. And to your point, maybepeople don't know the language,
I mean, I made it up. But maybethey can relate to it. And the
goal is to help shape byproviding a framework. And then
to help nurture what side areyou want, you know, your offer
(22:24):
your offense? Do you know both?
And you just need to sort ofdefine that in between space. So
I would love to invest more timeand how do I help people land on
this thing, and then turn thosewords into action.
Voiceover (22:41):
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Jason Goldberg (23:02):
So I've had an interesting debate, with leaders
in recent years about the shiftto being more vocal in the
world. We've seen it in theUnited States, over the last few
years where you have no largeCEOs of large brands that are
taking a stand on social andpolitical issues. And I'll go
(23:26):
out on a limb and say that as asociety, we're in crisis right
now, rights are being taken awayfrom people, people around the
world are still being persecutedin certain countries and
regions. You know, as shockingas it is, we still have horrible
food and healthcare shortagesall around the world at a time
(23:47):
where there there are firstworld countries that have so
much. They're still inequitiesin different parts of the
country in different parts ofthe world. So what I hear from
some leaders, that sometimesthey're concerned, what I hear
from some leaders is thatsometimes they're concerned that
(24:10):
they don't speak up, they fearthe consequences of alienating
customers or employees. Soobviously, having a social
legacy can be personal, but itcan also be brought to the
office. Right? It can besomething that it business takes
on as a cause. So how do youfeel about leaders standing up
(24:32):
for cause publicly?
Emily Chang (24:34):
I feel like it's, in fact, our responsibility. I
think the more trust andresponsibility that is given to
a person, the more we owe backwith the privilege of that role.
I think anybody who is entrustedwith a lot and is given a
platform is being negligent bynot using it. That said, we have
(24:56):
to be wise as well. So let mestep back. I would say they're
probably Probably three thingswe should keep in mind. The
first is courage. I do think ittakes courage to step out and
say, here's who I am. I mean, ittook courage to write a book,
though I've never writtenanything. And frankly, I don't
know if I'm even a good writer.
But let's write this thing,because I believe it's bigger
than myself. And I want to try.
(25:18):
That's courage. You know, andlet's hope that it lands in a
way that it's intended. Thesecond thing is wisdom, which is
courage does not mean completefearlessness. Courage means
having the bravery to do what wethink is right, and where we
feel called to do it. wisdomsays, let's think about how that
manifests. Am I at the rightcompany? Does the company ethos
(25:42):
match my own? And will theysupport what I have to say? So
those two things I think, haveto go hand in hand. We have to
have courage, but we also needto be wise. And I think the
third thing I would say is wewant to be gracious. So it's
very easy to think aboutcourage. And those people who
are throwing their fists in theair right now, I'm not sure
(26:03):
that's my definition of courage.
We want to be gracious topeople, we want to try and
withhold judgment, and not lookto something and say that's
wrong. Instead, let's lead withlove. Let's think about what we
believe in versus what othersbelieve in and criticize that if
we have the courage to stand forwhat we believe in the wisdom to
understand the context in whichwe ought to share that belief
(26:28):
and how to land it in the waythat it's intended. And then the
graciousness to land it in a waythat is not judging others, but
rather saying, here's who I amvulnerably here's what I
believe, and I hope this isbeneficial to you. Those would
be the three words that kind ofcame to mind as you brought up
that question.
Jason Goldberg (26:48):
That's great.
You know, we I've, you mentionedearlier in this chat, that it's
incumbent upon companies to stepup and also take care of other
people and take care of societyas well, in addition to their
core mission, as a business. AndI think we're starting to see
(27:09):
that more and more right asperhaps social and certain
social rights are taken awayfrom, from people, employers are
stepping up and and filling inthe gap so that their employees
don't suffer. How do you feelabout that, you know, is that is
(27:30):
that an employer'sresponsibility, I want to dig a
little bit deeper on how much anemployer should take care of its
employees and really walk thewalk right? If I can, for you to
take care of your family, foryou to take care of other people
in society, we, as an employer,need to take care of our people.
Emily Chang (27:57):
I think that's just the most foundational
expectation for an employer isto take care of our people. I
know that's particularlydifficult when the economy is
stressed. And when we have tomake difficult choices, there
have been some interestingthings about crying CEOs in
social media lately, you know,I've withheld judgment on that
(28:18):
one, because we don't know whatother people are really
experiencing, right, we're alltrying to put our own truth out
there in a way, I believe orwant to believe is is intended
to be helpful to other people.
So I think it is theresponsibility of an employer to
create that space, I'm goingback to that word nurture. I see
it as my role, not to just leadas in standing in the front and
(28:43):
charging forward. But it's alsostanding alongside our people
and working hand in hand, andthen importantly, pushing and
supporting from behind. I thinkall three of those dimensions of
leadership are equallyimportant. And it's upon us if
we borrow the phrase,situational leadership, to
understand SituationalLeadership refers to how we
(29:04):
engage with people based on whatthey need. I think this this
dimensional leadership is thesame idea, which is what does
somebody need from me right now,perhaps they need me to stand in
front and help sort of pave theway. Perhaps they just need a
leader who understands andsympathizers and will sit
alongside them so that they feelthat level of day to day
support. And sometimes we needour leaders to stand behind. I
(29:27):
think these three dimensions areall necessary in terms of
creating and cultivating a greatworkspace.
Jason Goldberg (29:36):
Great. So next question is probably my most
important question of this chat.
Those of us who are parents orwho have children in our lives.
It's incumbent at my belief thatit's incumbent upon us to set an
example so that the nextgeneration learns and does it
(29:56):
better. So how has your legacy?
The spare room of supportingpeople influenced your daughter?
Emily Chang (30:09):
I love that you said that's the most important
question. This is what drew meto you in the very beginning,
yes, your your brand ofleadership and what you believe.
I think it is shaping who she isand who she's going to become. I
think just like as leaders, ourresponsibility is to nurture and
cultivate a space where peoplecan thrive equally, that's our
(30:31):
job as parents is to cultivate asafe space where our kids can
explore, experiment and thrive.
It's really important for her tolearn the things she's not good
at, and not see those asfailure. But wow, that's
fantastic. Now I know I don'tlike that. And then try new
things to figure out what it isshe does love to do. It's
(30:52):
interesting, because especiallycoming from an Asian background,
a lot of times we're stronglyencouraged by our parents to
pursue the things we're good at.
Here's what's interesting. Wedon't always love the things
we're good at. My daughter is anincredibly talented artist, but
she doesn't like it. So I've hadto pull myself back from
(31:14):
encouraging her, Hey, do youwant to take classes? Do you
want to submit this for acontest or a gallery? Stop it,
if she's not passionate aboutit, let her explore. And let me
cultivate and nurture. Shedoesn't need me in front in that
dimension. She needs mealongside and she needs me
behind her no matter what shewants to learn. So in the social
legacy, I think it's about rolemodeling. Am I showing her that
(31:38):
I'm really investing in what'simportant to me, the worst thing
that would happen is I taughtthis stuff, but I live
differently. I don't know whatwould happen to the kid who
experiences that. But I hopethat what Lainey is seeing is I
talk about this stuff is superimportant to me. I love that I
feel like I've had the privilegethrough life experience to
define my own social legacy. AndI deeply want to help other
(32:00):
people uncover theirs. So doesshe see that? That's where I
invested my time? Does she seethat that's what drives me and
motivates me. That's whatinspires me as a leader and
informs how I operate. If that'sthe case, then I think what
she's taking away is words arereally important, not not only
(32:21):
because they do become a sort ofcontract, which we talked about
before, but because we theybecome the mantra by which we
live.
Jason Goldberg (32:30):
That's phenomenal. So one question, I
always ask my guests. Becauseevery one of our guests is a
Triple Threat leader. Tell usabout one to two leaders who
you've learned from along theway. And they can either be
great leaders, or bad leaders,right? We learn what not to do
(32:53):
as well. What did you can saywho they are if you'd like, but
certainly what what did theyteach you?
Emily Chang (32:59):
I think to one leader who did something really
phenomenal. This was beforeLaney was even born. So I worked
at the Walmart team with Procterand Gamble. I don't remember
when you guys love to look it upon my LinkedIn. I worked for a
woman named Tia Jordan. She wasshe operated in a way I couldn't
(33:20):
understand. She was so acceptingof what I would consider
borderline unacceptablebehavior. People kind of back
that right people stumbling intowork late kind of hungover
drinking Red Bull, or otherpeople being probably pretty
sharp around the edges. She wasable to accept so much of this
and I kept thinking, How doesshe deal with is why isn't she
(33:42):
having been raised in Procterand Gamble and grown up through
you know, sort of an engineeringbackground? Why isn't she
shaping them? And now we wouldcall that inclusion. But we
didn't even have the word backthen. It's sort of like when
Brene Brown introduced this ideaof vulnerability and suddenly
gave us words to the things thatwe were feeling and didn't know
how to express. I think TiaMorell modeled inclusion to a
(34:05):
degree that I didn't understandor appreciate until somebody
gave me the words. And westarted talking about DNI and I
thought, oh, that's what she wasdoing. It's not just about
numbers. It's not aboutrepresentation of different
backgrounds or skin colors. Itis about truly understanding who
people are bringing up the verybest of them, and creating a
space where they feel like theycan be themselves. I think we
(34:28):
had some incredibly talentedpeople there, who, based on
their behavior, others may nothave seen or recognize the
value, but because she was ableto accept the way they operated.
As I'm thinking of a couple ofpeople in particular that they
are all insanely successfultoday. I think Tia was the
person who unlocked that forthem.
Jason Goldberg (34:51):
Very nice.
That's a great example. Well,Emily, this was an amazing
conversation. I loved learningabout your journey. about
defining your social legacy.
You're an amazing leader ofconsequence. And as a reminder,
for our listeners, you can findEmily's book, the spare room on
Amazon and Walmart. I encourageyou to look up her website, the
(35:15):
social legacy.com The correctyes, social dash legacy. That's
right social dash legacy.com.
And, and to watch her TED talks,you'll you'll learn a lot. So
thanks so much for being with ustoday.
Emily Chang (35:31):
Thanks, Jason. And thanks for encouraging us to be
triple threat leaders.
Jason Goldberg (35:36):
I want to thank Emily for joining us on the
leaders perspective podcast.
Emily is an incredible personand an incredible executive. And
what she's doing with her spareroom is nothing short of
saintly, she is forever changinglives. Emily's book outlines a
framework for leaders toidentify and define their own
social legacy. I encourage allof our listeners to read it, and
(35:59):
think about how to apply that inyour own lives. So at the end of
every podcast, we take a fewminutes, and we think about the
top three things that we learnedfrom our guests today. And there
were three things that I noteddown during the conversation
with Emily. Number one, we haveto find congruence between who
(36:21):
we are as leaders and thebusiness that we serve, and the
people that we have anopportunity to lead. And we
can't find that congruency untilwe clearly define ourselves
first. Number two, three thingsthat we should keep in mind as
leaders that define our socialleadership style or as we define
(36:43):
our social leadership style. Youneed the courage to stand up for
what you believe in. You needwisdom, of understanding the
context in which you shouldshare that belief. And you
should be gracious in sharingwho you are, and what you
believe in. And mostimportantly, as part of that,
(37:06):
always lead with love. The thirdthing that I learned is that
your social legacy can shape theleader that you want to be they
are, as I mentioned earlier,inextricably linked so be
exactly who you are, be genuineand and serve people. So thank
you again for listening to theleaders perspective podcast. As
(37:30):
always, have a great day and beyour best self.
Voiceover (37:38):
Thanks for listening to the leaders perspective
podcast, brought to you by acell advisors visit a cell dash
advisors.com For moreinformation about our growth
turnaround, optimization risk inHR Advisory Services LLC, and is
(38:00):
available on YouTube, Apple andSpotify.
Leaders set vision and strategy and
influence and shepherd othersalong the journey to achieve
that vision. The very bestleaders are selfless. They care
about helping others both atwork and in society. core to the
essence of being a Triple Threatleader is being a leader of
consequence. This is someone whorecognizes that success in the
(00:22):
boardroom, that success in theoperating room. That success in
the political arena isinextricably linked to deeply
furthering and supporting asocial cause. Welcome
Voiceover (00:35):
to the leaders perspective podcast where we
talk to Triple Threat leadersabout the people products,
trends and experiences thatinfluence business. I'm now
pleased to introduce your host,Jason Goldberg.
Jason Goldberg (00:57):
Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast
where we engage with TripleThreat leaders to learn about
their lives, careers andleadership philosophies, and
chat with our guests about a hottopic in society. As a reminder,
a Triple Threat leader is onewho embodies the very best of
leadership and who has strong IQEQ and DQ intelligence quotient,
(01:19):
emotional quotient and decencyquotient. I am thrilled to
welcome Emily Chang, executivespeaker, author and influencer.
Emily is the CEO of McCannworldgroup Chyna and previously
served as Chief MarketingOfficer for Starbucks China, and
the Chief Commercial Officer forInterContinental Hotels group in
(01:39):
China. Earlier in her career,she led retail marketing for
Apple in Asia Pacific, and beganher career with 11 years at
Procter and Gamble. She is aprolific speaker having
delivered three TED Talks andspoke at fortunes most powerful
Women's Summit, Emily earned herBA and MBA from the University
(01:59):
of Rochester. She is also thebest selling author of the spare
room and amazing and influentialbook, where she discusses her
journey and supporting nearly 20people who needed a helping
hand. She not only talks aboutvalues based leadership, but she
describes her journey in findingand defining her own social
(02:21):
legacy. Emily, thank you forjoining us today on the leaders
perspective.
Emily Chang (02:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jason Goldberg (02:29):
So where in the world can we find you today?
Emily Chang (02:31):
Today, I'm in Los Angeles, I came on a very
whirlwind tour of the UnitedStates with my daughter, and
then ended up having our flightcanceled. So we're here for a
little while longer thanexpected, but really trying to
enjoy this wonderful place whilewe're here.
Jason Goldberg (02:46):
Awesome, very nice. And how it's traveled in
your to and from China over thelast few months.
Emily Chang (02:52):
It has not been so much. So I went out to China
about two years ago and frankly,didn't even endeavor to leave
the country because I knew itwould be difficult to come back.
In fact, this summer when webooked our trip, it was only
because we had seen more peoplecoming back and everything
seemed like it was starting tohit a rhythm. But there's always
the unexpected.
Jason Goldberg (03:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Awesome. Well, so let's startoff. Just tell us about
yourself. Where are you from?
What are your hobbies? You know,who's Emily?
Emily Chang (03:22):
Sure. That's always the big question. Where am I
from? I was born in the States.
I've now lived half of my adultlife in China and half in the
United States. Same with mycareer. I'm married to a Korean
American and I have a daughterwho's Korean Chinese but born in
America with an Americanpassport. So I think we're all a
little bit global citizens inthat respect. And, in fact, on a
(03:46):
first slight deviation, I thinkthis is a an interesting
conversation these days, people,especially those who are working
between China and us havesomehow felt compelled to pick
aside to I want my kid raised inChina or in the US what
education do I want and it feelslike if I make a stake in the
ground, this is where I need tobe until my kid graduates and I
(04:08):
guess I feel differently eveneven right now as I'm a little
bit stranded in Los Angeles.
What's great is we can feel likewe're home wherever we are home
may not necessarily be thecountry or the place. It's how
we define the space around us.
Jason Goldberg (04:26):
That's That's terrific. What do you what do
you do in your free time?
Emily Chang (04:31):
I love spending time with my daughter though
increasingly as she's about toturn 14 She does not always I
will take all that time that Ican get for as long as I can get
it. I love to read. I love to beoutside. And Los Angeles is
great for that. Some of thethings you forget how much you
(04:53):
enjoy when you live in Shanghaidue to weather it's the humidity
the pollution of the insanemosquito It was, it's just been
nice to be outside this lastweek. So yeah, I love working. I
love moving. I love reading, Ilove spending time with my
daughter loves spending timewith people I love enjoy talking
with you. So thank you forhaving me again.
Jason Goldberg (05:15):
I'm excited to have you on this is a great
topic that we're going to getinto. But so let's talk about
your career for a few minutes.
You've had an incrediblyaccomplished career in
marketing, you've worked acrosshospitality, retail tech. And
now you're leading a significantagency in China. How did all
that come about? Because I knowwhen you were, when we spoke a
(05:39):
few weeks ago, you were tellingme you were actually a biology
major. So how did how did youwind up in marketing?
Emily Chang (05:49):
I think it's about being open to experiences and
thinking a little bit morelaterally in terms of where we
can learn and what we mightcontribute. You know, like, as
my daughter is going into highschool, I think young people
often feel pressured to say,What am I going to be when I
grow up? We do ask thisquestion. And I'm trying really
hard not to ask young peoplethat because what a lot of
(06:11):
unnecessary pressure, if wedon't have a set goal, which, if
I may say more often than not,isn't even designed by us, but
probably by our parents, then wecan think much more broadly
about what interests us and takeeach new opportunity more as
learning than as a forward stepin my career, per se. So though,
(06:32):
I studied science, and I wasvery keen initially on being pre
med, I had a situation where Isuddenly realized that what drew
me to medicine and taking careof sick kids, is in fact, making
me very unsuitable to thiscareer. Because I don't have
that emotional distance. And youknow, what a gift to learn that
I was enrolled in med school andrealizing at that moment, this
(06:55):
can't be for me. And so Iswitched paths and went and got
my MBA instead. And I think thatwas maybe a little bit of a
brave move in some ways, becausesuddenly, you're walking away
from what you thought you wantedto be into something you don't
know. But knowing that plan A isprobably not what I want, or
it's not going to be good fit.
Certainly not even knowing whatPlan B is, it has to be a better
(07:16):
direction. And what it does isit opens more doors in a
different sort of vector. Andthat is a summary of my career.
I've never planned people reachout a lot on LinkedIn, and
they'll say, you've been indifferent industries. Tell me
how you did it. How did you planit? And frankly, none of it was
really planned. I feel verylucky. I've been recruited from
one job to the next by reallybroad minded people who can
(07:40):
probably see what I've done,what I could contribute, and are
willing to teach me the rest.
And now, go ahead.
Jason Goldberg (07:50):
No, I absolutely agree with that. It's about
style. It's about intelligence.
It's about thoughtfulness. It'sthe skills rather than the
knowledge, the knowledge cancome right that you can learn a
particular retail business, butlearning how to stand up a
business lead a team, buildstrategy execute. That's, that's
(08:12):
the skill set side. And I agreethat when you think about it
that way, it's easier to, tomove across industries.
Emily Chang (08:24):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think we may be overlyesteem and industry or a
vertical. You didn't grow up inhospitality, how can you
possibly understand ourbusiness? Or why did you come to
the agency side? They thosequestions. They're not wrong.
They're interesting. And they'recoming from a place of
curiosity, but they're alsocoming from a self inflicted
definition? For sure. You know,and maybe I don't see it as
(08:49):
changing an industry or going tothe agency side, it's more,
there's an interesting businesschallenge here, the model may be
slightly different than what I'maccustomed to. But there are
enough similarities acrosscommercial business, that the
nuances kind of make themselvesclear. And if you approach a new
opportunity with humility, andinterest to learn, and not
(09:11):
assuming what worked in yourlast role will work here. I
think you just learned so muchas you go. And in many ways that
accelerates your career path,because frankly, it's not your
goal.
Jason Goldberg (09:24):
I think you talk a lot like a consultant. In a
good way, in a good way, inthat, you know, when I when I
talk to CEOs, founders,executives, and I don't know
their business, per se, I alwaysencourage them to think about
the customer first, rather thanthe rather than the product
(09:46):
first, and it's the customer isthe journey. Getting the
customers mind, think about whois that customer what brands are
they interacting with? Where dothey work? I'm how do they earn
money? What stresses them out.
And if you really understand thecustomer, then the business and
(10:07):
the product will follow. And ifyou think about the journey that
way, and then that really movesacross industries. So, so let's,
you know, shift a little bit, Iwant to talk, I want to spend a
good amount of time talkingabout the spare room. And so I
had an opportunity to read thebook over the last few weeks.
(10:31):
It's an absolutely incrediblebook. I encourage our listeners
to download it on Amazon orWalmart. But you know, in your
words, Ken, can you tell thelisteners about the story of the
spare room?
Emily Chang (10:46):
Sure, I'll tell you a little bit about how it
started and how it evolved.
Because that's one of thelessons I shared in my my own
career journey, which is goingwith the flow in a lot of ways
and seeing what transpires, Istarted off with a desire to
share some of the stories fromour own spare room where we've
taken care of now 17 Kids,babies, young people over the
course of the last 23 years orso. But the objective itself
(11:08):
began to evolve. So it becameonly about five of those
stories. And then I startedincluding other stories from
other people all over the world,different walks of life,
different jobs, at differentlevels, because it's important
to me that people don't draw theconclusion that this is Emily's
spare room, the conclusionshould be in fact, actually,
(11:29):
this is a concept of sociallegacy. And absolutely,
everybody has something more tocontribute. And the model itself
came from a very simple mindsetof everybody has an offer
something unique, thatencapsulates our capabilities to
the previous point, ourexperiences, what we're good at
(11:49):
what we love to do ourpersonality traits. The other
side of the offer is what I'mcalling the offense, which is
that thing in the world that's alittle bit offends you, it kind
of captures your heart when yousee it, and you think somebody
has to do something about this.
And that's somebody then isprobably, so if you find the
(12:09):
intersection of your offer, andyour offense, that that middle
of the Venn diagram, I call yoursocial legacy, and legacy
defines leaving something betterthan I found it, that's it, it
doesn't have to be some very bigidea, you know, and social is
the space in which I want tohave that impact. So for me, I
started off thinking that thespare room was my social legacy.
(12:31):
And over, I had the privilege ofdoing a TEDx talk on this
subject. And it really forcesyou to think about what is my
idea worth sharing, I started torealize, over the course of
these nine months, the spareroom is a part of the offer. But
my social legacy is somethingdifferent. And as I articulated
it, it brought incredibleclarity to who I am the
(12:52):
priorities I make where I spendmy time. And it transcended how
I want to live my life at home,and how I want to live my life
at work. So that's thefundamental idea of the social
legacy. And I would love for itto become a movement where
people start asking each other,what's your social legacy?
What's your spare room, and itbecomes an amplifying effect
(13:13):
where people are then able toland on? Oh, my gosh, I do know
what I bring to the world. Ifeel confident in that. And I
know how I want to direct thatoffer. I think it can become
incredibly powerful if peoplestart kind of leaning into what
they believe that they bring tothe table and have more
confidence and how they want toleverage those those skills.
Jason Goldberg (13:35):
All right, great. Let's dive down vote,
just so that everyoneunderstands what you mean by
your spare room? For those whohaven't read the book. And you
mentioned that 17 young people.
Can you tell them what what youdo with the spare room how that
came about?
Emily Chang (13:53):
Well, I think every one of these kids has come to us
through a different way, whichis in and of itself a little bit
magical. I think the very firstgirl I've met when I was only 20
years old, and still anundergrad, she needed a safe
place to stay. I brought herhome. I didn't really know what
I was doing. It wasn't a veryintentional It wasn't even I
(14:14):
can't say like a humanitarianborn out of deep care. It was I
can't just leave this kid on theside of the road. And sometimes
we stumble into something that'smuch bigger than ourselves. So I
think you know, sometimes justsimply being willing to say yes,
sometimes simply following thatsort of instinct, your own
spirit of reaching out to thiskid and saying, I want to go
(14:36):
home, it's cold. I'm tired. Ihave so much work to do, but I
can't get myself to there's areason for that. So stop and see
if you can help in one momentbecause something I've learned
is our capacity to give tocontribute and to grow far
exceeds our wildest imagination.
So this girl came to have dinnerwith me she spent one night she
spent three a week mum And sheultimately ended up living with
(15:00):
a foster family. She thenintroduced another kid she had
met on the street, who thenmoved in with me, and on and on,
and every kid has come to usthrough a very unofficial
channel. And I think that's partof sort of the openness that
comes when you say yes to theseopportunities, those
opportunities will sort of startto find you. So our most recent
(15:22):
kid we met through, again, alink a red thread of a previous
kid we had, this kid's name isWayne and he has hydrocephalus.
He's our second little boy we'vetaken care of with
hydrocephalus. He lived with usfor about six or seven months,
and just had an incredibleprogress report in his home
living with us. And he's nowliving with a different family
(15:45):
who were very much hoping willadopt him he's doing great.
Again, similar to the first boywho Teo who I wrote about in the
book, there are a lot ofparallels, Wayne came to us and
couldn't move really couldn'tarticulate any, any words. And
now he can say a couple, he canuse his hands, he can sit up
unassisted, and just getting achance to see the development,
(16:07):
you know, and the confidencebuilding among some of these
people who we have the privilegeof caring for in our spare room
has been the most inspiringthing in my life.
Jason Goldberg (16:20):
Calling it a spare room is, is interesting,
write it because it talks aboutthe space that you can lend, but
it's so much more than thatyou're providing a sense of
safety, a sense of ability toheal. For for every one of these
kids, and and so it goes beyondthe space. And and by giving
(16:45):
them that space to heal youryour true truly changing their
life, because it's not just theroom, right? It's the it's the
safety, it's the support systembehind that that they would
never have had until they showup on your doorstep.
Emily Chang (17:03):
Jason, I think that's a great point. That was
my realization that the spareroom itself isn't my social
legacy. In fact, what we labeledit is kibou, which is a Korean
word that means comfort for thespirit. That is that is a bigger
idea. And that's what I found soempowering for my own
leadership. I mean, this startedto not only integrate with my
(17:24):
work, but it started totranscend my work because it
began shaping the kind of leaderI more intentionally want to be.
It is about creating comfort forthe spirit. And what is that in
our corporate lingo? It's D Ayay ay. Right? It's diversity,
inclusion, equity,accessibility, it's all of these
things. But in my sort of normallanguage, it is just creating a
(17:46):
comfort for the Spirit, you cancome in and you can be exactly
who you are. Present yourselfwithout a mask on and know that
you are not only accepted,you're respected. And people
want to hear from you, you'revalued. And I think that if you
can, if you can create that kindof space as a leader, that's
where people can thrive becausethey look forward to coming to
(18:06):
work instead of dreading it orthinking I don't want to be in
the workplace. I know that's ahot topic right now, whether
it's actually physically beingin the office or just being
emotionally fully engaged. Ibelieve people bring their best
when they feel like they have asense of belonging.
Jason Goldberg (18:21):
So what, let's talk about leaders for a moment,
because when we talk aboutleaders, we often think about it
in the with the connotation ofhey, their leadership, their
leader in business, inhealthcare in politics. Why is
it important for a leader tohave a social legacy?
Emily Chang (18:41):
Well, these days, everybody knows that a business
has to stand for somethingright? At McCann, we have this
truth Central. It's aintelligent operating system.
And basically, we do a lot ofresearch all over the world. And
we know that consumers globallyexpect businesses, individuals
and government to equallycontribute. That's sort of their
(19:02):
their expectation. It is nolonger the government will take
care of us it is individually,what am I going to do? And what
do I expect business to do whenI buy a brand? What do I expect
them to stand for? Where do Iexpect them to invest? These are
meaningful changes in how welook at business, the business
roundtable in I think it wasAugust 2019. Right, right. As I
(19:23):
was writing, the book came outright. Jamie Dimon and a group
of leaders kind of establisheswe have to do more than make
money, we have to stand forsomething bigger. Well, for me,
back to your question. We how dowe help businesses stand for
something more meaningful if weas leaders don't know what we
individually stand for? We haveto find congruence between who
(19:43):
we are as leaders and thebusiness that we serve and the
people that we have theopportunity to lead. We can't
find that congruence if we can'tclearly define ourselves first.
Jason Goldberg (19:55):
Can this be taught so I know this? This is
within you? It's very clear.
You're right, the moment youhave that feeling, I can't leave
this child on the street, thatthat's deep within you. That's
very personal. You know, I havea social legacy of my own. And I
volunteer in EMS for many years.
(20:17):
And, and I like to try to make adifference, you know, one one
patient at a time. So we all dothat, but that's within us. But
Can that be taught? Is thatsomething that just happens? Or?
How do you think about that?
Emily Chang (20:36):
I think he can be shaped. And I think it can be
nurtured, because fundamentally,I think everybody wants to
contribute. Very, very fewpeople say, I would like to do
nothing for anyone else, andreally just suck it all in for
myself, maybe there is the rareperson, but most people aren't
that way. And that's why I cameup with this super simple
(20:59):
diagram, this Venn diagrammodel, because what I
discovered, as I was kind ofpulling together this TEDx Talk
is people fall into one or theother camp, either. I generally
know who I am, and what I offer,but I don't know where to direct
it, the world is really big.
Right? And the other side is, Iknow the thing that pisses me
off, or the opportunity,opportunity or offense, either
(21:20):
one, I know the thing I want togo work on. But what can I do,
I'm just one person. So when youfind an ability to define who I
am, and stand firm in yourconfidence in that, equally, you
define where you want to go putyour energies. And that's why
the book as you read is verymuch a workbook in many ways.
With those reflective exercises,it's intended to help you hone
(21:40):
in on each of these things. Andthen you write your social
legacy, I really believe in thepower of communication. When I
write something down, the wordsbecome somehow cemented, it's a
commitment. And then when Ispeak those words, and share
them with somebody, what I'm nowdoing is sort of making a
promise, because now others haveheard those words, and they can
(22:01):
hold me accountable to them. Sohelping people identify their
social legacy, I think is areally powerful way to serve
people. And to your point, maybepeople don't know the language,
I mean, I made it up. But maybethey can relate to it. And the
goal is to help shape byproviding a framework. And then
to help nurture what side areyou want, you know, your offer
(22:24):
your offense? Do you know both?
And you just need to sort ofdefine that in between space. So
I would love to invest more timeand how do I help people land on
this thing, and then turn thosewords into action.
Voiceover (22:41):
Sell advisors, expert consultants are all veteran
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Jason Goldberg (23:02):
So I've had an interesting debate, with leaders
in recent years about the shiftto being more vocal in the
world. We've seen it in theUnited States, over the last few
years where you have no largeCEOs of large brands that are
taking a stand on social andpolitical issues. And I'll go
(23:26):
out on a limb and say that as asociety, we're in crisis right
now, rights are being taken awayfrom people, people around the
world are still being persecutedin certain countries and
regions. You know, as shockingas it is, we still have horrible
food and healthcare shortagesall around the world at a time
(23:47):
where there there are firstworld countries that have so
much. They're still inequitiesin different parts of the
country in different parts ofthe world. So what I hear from
some leaders, that sometimesthey're concerned, what I hear
from some leaders is thatsometimes they're concerned that
(24:10):
they don't speak up, they fearthe consequences of alienating
customers or employees. Soobviously, having a social
legacy can be personal, but itcan also be brought to the
office. Right? It can besomething that it business takes
on as a cause. So how do youfeel about leaders standing up
(24:32):
for cause publicly?
Emily Chang (24:34):
I feel like it's, in fact, our responsibility. I
think the more trust andresponsibility that is given to
a person, the more we owe backwith the privilege of that role.
I think anybody who is entrustedwith a lot and is given a
platform is being negligent bynot using it. That said, we have
(24:56):
to be wise as well. So let mestep back. I would say they're
probably Probably three thingswe should keep in mind. The
first is courage. I do think ittakes courage to step out and
say, here's who I am. I mean, ittook courage to write a book,
though I've never writtenanything. And frankly, I don't
know if I'm even a good writer.
But let's write this thing,because I believe it's bigger
than myself. And I want to try.
(25:18):
That's courage. You know, andlet's hope that it lands in a
way that it's intended. Thesecond thing is wisdom, which is
courage does not mean completefearlessness. Courage means
having the bravery to do what wethink is right, and where we
feel called to do it. wisdomsays, let's think about how that
manifests. Am I at the rightcompany? Does the company ethos
(25:42):
match my own? And will theysupport what I have to say? So
those two things I think, haveto go hand in hand. We have to
have courage, but we also needto be wise. And I think the
third thing I would say is wewant to be gracious. So it's
very easy to think aboutcourage. And those people who
are throwing their fists in theair right now, I'm not sure
(26:03):
that's my definition of courage.
We want to be gracious topeople, we want to try and
withhold judgment, and not lookto something and say that's
wrong. Instead, let's lead withlove. Let's think about what we
believe in versus what othersbelieve in and criticize that if
we have the courage to stand forwhat we believe in the wisdom to
understand the context in whichwe ought to share that belief
(26:28):
and how to land it in the waythat it's intended. And then the
graciousness to land it in a waythat is not judging others, but
rather saying, here's who I amvulnerably here's what I
believe, and I hope this isbeneficial to you. Those would
be the three words that kind ofcame to mind as you brought up
that question.
Jason Goldberg (26:48):
That's great.
You know, we I've, you mentionedearlier in this chat, that it's
incumbent upon companies to stepup and also take care of other
people and take care of societyas well, in addition to their
core mission, as a business. AndI think we're starting to see
(27:09):
that more and more right asperhaps social and certain
social rights are taken awayfrom, from people, employers are
stepping up and and filling inthe gap so that their employees
don't suffer. How do you feelabout that, you know, is that is
(27:30):
that an employer'sresponsibility, I want to dig a
little bit deeper on how much anemployer should take care of its
employees and really walk thewalk right? If I can, for you to
take care of your family, foryou to take care of other people
in society, we, as an employer,need to take care of our people.
Emily Chang (27:57):
I think that's just the most foundational
expectation for an employer isto take care of our people. I
know that's particularlydifficult when the economy is
stressed. And when we have tomake difficult choices, there
have been some interestingthings about crying CEOs in
social media lately, you know,I've withheld judgment on that
(28:18):
one, because we don't know whatother people are really
experiencing, right, we're alltrying to put our own truth out
there in a way, I believe orwant to believe is is intended
to be helpful to other people.
So I think it is theresponsibility of an employer to
create that space, I'm goingback to that word nurture. I see
it as my role, not to just leadas in standing in the front and
(28:43):
charging forward. But it's alsostanding alongside our people
and working hand in hand, andthen importantly, pushing and
supporting from behind. I thinkall three of those dimensions of
leadership are equallyimportant. And it's upon us if
we borrow the phrase,situational leadership, to
understand SituationalLeadership refers to how we
(29:04):
engage with people based on whatthey need. I think this this
dimensional leadership is thesame idea, which is what does
somebody need from me right now,perhaps they need me to stand in
front and help sort of pave theway. Perhaps they just need a
leader who understands andsympathizers and will sit
alongside them so that they feelthat level of day to day
support. And sometimes we needour leaders to stand behind. I
(29:27):
think these three dimensions areall necessary in terms of
creating and cultivating a greatworkspace.
Jason Goldberg (29:36):
Great. So next question is probably my most
important question of this chat.
Those of us who are parents orwho have children in our lives.
It's incumbent at my belief thatit's incumbent upon us to set an
example so that the nextgeneration learns and does it
(29:56):
better. So how has your legacy?
The spare room of supportingpeople influenced your daughter?
Emily Chang (30:09):
I love that you said that's the most important
question. This is what drew meto you in the very beginning,
yes, your your brand ofleadership and what you believe.
I think it is shaping who she isand who she's going to become. I
think just like as leaders, ourresponsibility is to nurture and
cultivate a space where peoplecan thrive equally, that's our
(30:31):
job as parents is to cultivate asafe space where our kids can
explore, experiment and thrive.
It's really important for her tolearn the things she's not good
at, and not see those asfailure. But wow, that's
fantastic. Now I know I don'tlike that. And then try new
things to figure out what it isshe does love to do. It's
(30:52):
interesting, because especiallycoming from an Asian background,
a lot of times we're stronglyencouraged by our parents to
pursue the things we're good at.
Here's what's interesting. Wedon't always love the things
we're good at. My daughter is anincredibly talented artist, but
she doesn't like it. So I've hadto pull myself back from
(31:14):
encouraging her, Hey, do youwant to take classes? Do you
want to submit this for acontest or a gallery? Stop it,
if she's not passionate aboutit, let her explore. And let me
cultivate and nurture. Shedoesn't need me in front in that
dimension. She needs mealongside and she needs me
behind her no matter what shewants to learn. So in the social
legacy, I think it's about rolemodeling. Am I showing her that
(31:38):
I'm really investing in what'simportant to me, the worst thing
that would happen is I taughtthis stuff, but I live
differently. I don't know whatwould happen to the kid who
experiences that. But I hopethat what Lainey is seeing is I
talk about this stuff is superimportant to me. I love that I
feel like I've had the privilegethrough life experience to
define my own social legacy. AndI deeply want to help other
(32:00):
people uncover theirs. So doesshe see that? That's where I
invested my time? Does she seethat that's what drives me and
motivates me. That's whatinspires me as a leader and
informs how I operate. If that'sthe case, then I think what
she's taking away is words arereally important, not not only
(32:21):
because they do become a sort ofcontract, which we talked about
before, but because we theybecome the mantra by which we
live.
Jason Goldberg (32:30):
That's phenomenal. So one question, I
always ask my guests. Becauseevery one of our guests is a
Triple Threat leader. Tell usabout one to two leaders who
you've learned from along theway. And they can either be
great leaders, or bad leaders,right? We learn what not to do
(32:53):
as well. What did you can saywho they are if you'd like, but
certainly what what did theyteach you?
Emily Chang (32:59):
I think to one leader who did something really
phenomenal. This was beforeLaney was even born. So I worked
at the Walmart team with Procterand Gamble. I don't remember
when you guys love to look it upon my LinkedIn. I worked for a
woman named Tia Jordan. She wasshe operated in a way I couldn't
(33:20):
understand. She was so acceptingof what I would consider
borderline unacceptablebehavior. People kind of back
that right people stumbling intowork late kind of hungover
drinking Red Bull, or otherpeople being probably pretty
sharp around the edges. She wasable to accept so much of this
and I kept thinking, How doesshe deal with is why isn't she
(33:42):
having been raised in Procterand Gamble and grown up through
you know, sort of an engineeringbackground? Why isn't she
shaping them? And now we wouldcall that inclusion. But we
didn't even have the word backthen. It's sort of like when
Brene Brown introduced this ideaof vulnerability and suddenly
gave us words to the things thatwe were feeling and didn't know
how to express. I think TiaMorell modeled inclusion to a
(34:05):
degree that I didn't understandor appreciate until somebody
gave me the words. And westarted talking about DNI and I
thought, oh, that's what she wasdoing. It's not just about
numbers. It's not aboutrepresentation of different
backgrounds or skin colors. Itis about truly understanding who
people are bringing up the verybest of them, and creating a
space where they feel like theycan be themselves. I think we
(34:28):
had some incredibly talentedpeople there, who, based on
their behavior, others may nothave seen or recognize the
value, but because she was ableto accept the way they operated.
As I'm thinking of a couple ofpeople in particular that they
are all insanely successfultoday. I think Tia was the
person who unlocked that forthem.
Jason Goldberg (34:51):
Very nice.
That's a great example. Well,Emily, this was an amazing
conversation. I loved learningabout your journey. about
defining your social legacy.
You're an amazing leader ofconsequence. And as a reminder,
for our listeners, you can findEmily's book, the spare room on
Amazon and Walmart. I encourageyou to look up her website, the
(35:15):
social legacy.com The correctyes, social dash legacy. That's
right social dash legacy.com.
And, and to watch her TED talks,you'll you'll learn a lot. So
thanks so much for being with ustoday.
Emily Chang (35:31):
Thanks, Jason. And thanks for encouraging us to be
triple threat leaders.
Jason Goldberg (35:36):
I want to thank Emily for joining us on the
leaders perspective podcast.
Emily is an incredible personand an incredible executive. And
what she's doing with her spareroom is nothing short of
saintly, she is forever changinglives. Emily's book outlines a
framework for leaders toidentify and define their own
social legacy. I encourage allof our listeners to read it, and
(35:59):
think about how to apply that inyour own lives. So at the end of
every podcast, we take a fewminutes, and we think about the
top three things that we learnedfrom our guests today. And there
were three things that I noteddown during the conversation
with Emily. Number one, we haveto find congruence between who
(36:21):
we are as leaders and thebusiness that we serve, and the
people that we have anopportunity to lead. And we
can't find that congruency untilwe clearly define ourselves
first. Number two, three thingsthat we should keep in mind as
leaders that define our socialleadership style or as we define
(36:43):
our social leadership style. Youneed the courage to stand up for
what you believe in. You needwisdom, of understanding the
context in which you shouldshare that belief. And you
should be gracious in sharingwho you are, and what you
believe in. And mostimportantly, as part of that,
(37:06):
always lead with love. The thirdthing that I learned is that
your social legacy can shape theleader that you want to be they
are, as I mentioned earlier,inextricably linked so be
exactly who you are, be genuineand and serve people. So thank
you again for listening to theleaders perspective podcast. As
(37:30):
always, have a great day and beyour best self.
Voiceover (37:38):
Thanks for listening to the leaders perspective
podcast, brought to you by acell advisors visit a cell dash
advisors.com For moreinformation about our growth
turnaround, optimization risk inHR Advisory Services LLC, and is
(38:00):
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