March 12, 2023 • 33 mins
In our uncertain economic environment, executives across financial services, technology and healthcare are asking themselves the question 'what’s next for me?' Many people are feeling stifled in their jobs, and many others are either unemployed or underemployed. In this episode of The Leaders' Perspective Podcast we chat with Kathy Boden Holland, a brilliant and inspiring leader who has worked in a variety of industries including financial services, education and consumer products - in roles ranging from strategy and private equity to business leadership to risk – and we learn how she leverages her network and her skills as a driver to own her unique career path.
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Episode Transcript
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Jason Goldberg (00:00):
Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast
where we engage with TripleThreat leaders to learn about
their lives, careers andleadership philosophies, and
chat with our guests about a hottopic in business or society. As
a reminder, a Triple Threatleader is one who embodies the
very best of leadership and whohas strong IQ, EQ and DQ,
(00:22):
intelligence quotient, emotionalquotient, and decency quotient.
executives across all industriesare finding themselves in a
unique position, following aperiod of growth and now
uncertainty in the economy.
While job growth is strong,we're finding that workers
across tech, financial services,and even healthcare find their
jobs at risk. Career reinventionis key to success. And this can
(00:47):
be in through the form of formaleducation, online courses, and
more often through appliedexperience and self created
business opportunities. Knowinghow to leverage one's skills is
as important as having expertisein any one industry or career
path. My guest today is thesingle strongest leader I've had
(01:07):
the opportunity to work for inmy career, and she is someone
who truly embodies Triple Threatleadership.
Kathy Boden Holland started hercareer as a consultant at
Deloitte, who then made her wayinto the VC and PE worlds. She
was a managing partner at BlueHouse capital, and later was
(01:29):
executive vice president atUrban trust holdings.
After the urban trust holdings,Kathy was president of RLJ
financial investing in newproducts for underbanked
consumers.
Cathy was Executive VicePresident of Corporate
Development for think finance,and then Executive Vice
President of bank products,Executive Vice President of
(01:52):
Corporate Development, and chiefrisk officer for elevate credit.
Cathy then shifted intohealthcare and education as
Group President of adtelehealth, a role where she
oversaw nursing, medical andveterinary schools educating
over 40,000 students across theUS, UK and the Caribbean.
(02:14):
Currently, Cathy is CEO ofconsumer safety technology, a
company which offers productsthat deter impaired driving. She
earned her BA from theUniversity of Pennsylvania where
she played women's basketballfor four years, and earned her
MBA from the UNC Kenan FlaglerBusiness School. Kathy is an
advisory board member of the UNCCenter for Business of health,
(02:37):
and resides in Denver, Colorado,with her husband and two
children.
Voiceover (02:42):
Welcome to the leaders perspective podcast
where we talk to Triple Threatleaders about the people
products, trends and experiencesthat influence business. I'm now
pleased to introduce your host,Jason Goldberg.
Jason Goldberg (03:07):
Welcome, Kathy to the leaders perspective
podcast. So happy to have youon. Thank you, Jason. It's been
a long time in the making.
She you and I met talked tobelieve seven years ago now.
That is hard to believe.
Kathy Boden Holland (03:22):
That might actually be too low of a number.
But yeah, so. Yeah. So yeah,you're at Elevate at the time
and
Jason Goldberg (03:30):
I quickly jumped at the chance to to work with
you there, which was a highlightof my career.
Sotell the listeners all about you
who you are, what makes youtick.
Kathy Boden Holland (03:46):
Ah, let's see. I am. I am a resident in
the Colorado area. I have twoteenagers, one husband, two
dogs. And I always like to addwe have one guinea pig and we've
been here about 10 years weenjoy it. We are skiers,
everybody always asked thatquestion. Yes.
Unknown (04:09):
What makes me tick is really depends on the topic,
right? But what makes me tick,personally is enjoying time with
family and friends and andgetting around and actually
having the opportunity to dothat. I think I'm even more
conscious of that. Post COVID,as many of us are.
What makes me tickprofessionally is
(04:30):
kind of jumping into the deepend and trying new things on a
regular basis. And as I'vegotten older, working with
people that I enjoy workingwith, I think is probably even
higher on my list ofrequirements to to jump in from
a professional perspective.
You're somebody whois think brings balance to the
workplace. And by that I meanyou know, no matter what's going
(04:55):
on how frenzied the environmentis how crazy the objectives
you bring this level of clarityto the objective like you, you
really distill it plus, youbring, you know, humor and
compassion, structure all inone. So how do you do that?
(05:21):
Well, thank you, I,there, there are plenty of days
with teenagers where I don'tfeel like I bring any of that
clarity or calmness to thetable. So maybe I'm using it at
the office.
But I think Ihaving a couple of things that
really influenced me when I whenI look back, like one is
(05:42):
I was an athlete growing up, Ienjoyed the competition.
But equally, I enjoyed theprocess of putting a team or
being on a team, I shouldn't sayputting a team together but
being on a team and gettingbetter, kind of the grind of
getting better. And I had thepleasure of working for some
(06:03):
really good game coaches, who,you know, we're very good at
recentering you on what'simportant that moment in time,
like not getting worked up aboutthings you can't control.
The other part is having reallystarted my career in consulting,
I think you see, I had theluxury of seeing a lot of things
(06:25):
not going well, that right,that's when you're oftentimes
brought in.
Andreally having the, again, luxury
of working for people who werecapable of thinking things
through focusing on the thingsthat matter, and, and keeping
your eyes you know, quote,unquote, keeping your eye on
(06:47):
the, on the end goal. And Ithink it just influenced me, I
would say,you know, at my roots, so to
speak.
And then I think the other part,which is just a benefit from my
perspective, I you know, I justgrew up in a really great
household where, you know, athome, it was just, it was easy.
(07:08):
And so whatever else washappening in around the world
was, was just less, not lessimportant. But you could always
get re centered. And I thinkthat's something that all of us
have to keep in mind thatwhatever we're doing very, very
few of us are impacting.
(07:28):
You know, everybody's gonna wakeup the next morning, we may not
be happy with the outcome, buteveryone's gonna wake up the
next morning. And that'sprobably the most important
part. That's great. So you lead,you were
CEO of your president of aeducational institution, during
(07:50):
COVID.
Gothis is this was an institution
that had nursing schools,medical schools, veterinary, and
in the US, like dozens ofcampuses in the US five
countries, right? Yep. And youhad to figure out how to educate
(08:10):
healthcare professionals.
At a time when health careprofessionals were like running
away from their fields, andcouldn't be present than there
was high risk.
Probably, I'm guessing probablythe most high stakes moment of
your career. Yeah, actually, youknow, probably the only time it
(08:32):
mattered about like, Waseverybody going to wake up the
next day type of my comment. SoI had the luxury of working with
exceptional academic leaders,right. So my role was really to
make sure that we wererunning quality schools from my,
you know, from a business andoperational perspective, and
(08:53):
that I had high quality academicleaders in roles and that they
built the right faculty and theright content. But to be very
clear, I was not an educator, Ihad the luxury of working with
just some fabulous educators.
And then in partnership, really,with people across our
(09:15):
organization, who are allfocused on the same thing. So
yeah, we had 2028 campuses, fivecountries, 40,000 students.
Anything that you could possiblyimagine happened in those, you
know, couple months,especially having people abroad.
(09:36):
It was everything was everythingwas happening real time and we
were all there, right. And notonly was it different in
different areas of the country,as it kind of flowed through
back and forth across thecountry, but different parts of
the world. And in that case, youwere really managing students,
their parents, our teamOur faculty, and then a whole
(10:00):
lot of regulatory bodies thatwere also figuring it out on a
real time basis. So I think thekey to success and I think
really we didan exceptional job. And I think
in looking back, there's no onedecision where I would say,
well, we blew that. I mean, Ithink we really took a very nice
(10:20):
approach across the board, and Icompliment the team. And my, my
peers for that. So but at thesame time, it's it's impossible
to know,it's impossible to know where
you had 45,000 eyes on you,right? You had you had all of
the all of the students, theirfamilies, your employees looking
(10:40):
at you saying, what do we do?
And so clearly, you can't handlethat all yourself. So you had to
set tone and direction and theneveryone had to make decisions.
So how do you go about that? Ithink I think in any
circumstance, you have to,especially one like that, like a
test your test your approach,right, you have to be very clear
(11:02):
that you don't actually have theanswers, right, and that you
kind of, you have to keep comingback to what's the what's the
right thing to do. And in thatenvironment, everybody has,
everybody has a slightlydifferent view of what's the
right thing to do. But like, atthe end of the day, it's you're
trying to both make everyonesafe. That was probably the
(11:22):
first and foremost. But then asthe, as the pandemic wore on,
it's also of people have to getthrough their education. And you
have to figure out how to dothat in a way that's a quality
experience for them. And for theschool, and then for their
ultimate employers. And that Ithink was actually a bigger
challenge, because you don'treally control what the what a
(11:44):
accreditation society decides orwhether or not they're going to
start providing the MCAT again,or whether or not, you know,
they're going to be able to taketheir
the first series in order to getinto the residency, so, or
they're going to be able to getinto like nursing students, or
they're going to be able toactually have all their
practicums that they need tohave in order to graduate.
(12:06):
Because hospitals can't havepeople in and out of them. So
for me,and I wasn't the only one,
right. I mean, I was one of asenior team, it was really
around, hashing it out, but alsobeing very clear that we don't,
we don't have all the answers,this is how we got to this
conclusion, or this decision.
(12:27):
And this is what we're gonnawatch to see
if that's the right decision.
So, you know, being astransparent as you possibly can
to a broad group, you're gonnahave lots of people who are not
happy with it. But if they canat least understand the process,
that were the conclusion. That'shelpful.
(12:51):
So one of the things we wantedto talk about today
is the notion of reinvention.
And as I mentioned, during theintro, you started your career
in consulting and healthcare,consulting, and then made your
way to the VC, pe world, andthen corporate development
(13:13):
into financial products somehow,which was probably a big
mistake.
And then, and even within thatit was corporate development,
product and portfolioleadership, that you had
partnerships, you had your chiefrisk officer at one point,
definitely, that's how, that'show we knew you really lost your
(13:35):
mind.
And, and then from there, madethe hop into for profit, Medical
Edge medical, medical education,and now consumer products. So
what's fascinating, and as youlike to tell it, there, there is
a story behind the madness.
(13:58):
You have, you must haveleveraged core skills.
Because it's not necessarilyindustry knowledge that you've
taken from from place to place.
So talk to us about thatjourney, and how you've
leveraged those skills toreinvent yourself over time.
Yeah, soyeah, like I said, I can give it
(14:21):
a voiceover and I actually hadsomebody tell me one time wow,
that's a great story. And I waslike, Well, only if you hear me,
only hear me tie it alltogether. It's not really a
great story on paper. I mean,it's a hard it's hard to follow
the dots but a little bit goesback to what I said, what makes
me tick, right? I like to jumpinto the deep end of things and
(14:42):
figure them out. And what I'vecome to realize as I again as
I've gotten older is it's notalways about figuring them out
but also making sure you havethe right teammates around you
andand maybe not always having the
best solution but having theright dialogue to see if you can
get there. So I think you startto build Old
(15:03):
won a little bit of a reputationof being capable of quote
unquote figuring it out, whichreally kind of at its core
starts in consulting, right,that's how you learn, and
presenting it, and being able tocommunicate,
but also in being able toformulate a logic to how you're
going to get from point A topoint B. And
(15:28):
maybe better now than earlier inmy career a little bit more
humbleness to say, when you'vegot it wrong, and that you're
going to reevaluate your logicand and start over. So I think
it'sI'm not sure there's any one
core skill other thanreally continually improving,
but also building I think, Iwould say a lot of them go back
(15:53):
to building your leadershipcapabilities. I mean, when I
think about what how I got intosome of the roles I got into
where I was offered theopportunity to jump into the
deep end, as you said, You'reabsolutely right. It wasn't
because I,I knew that space really well,
but because I think I haddemonstrated either real time
(16:13):
because I'd work with folksbefore, or I had been pointed
out to somebody else, because Ihad
demonstrated an ability to bothpull the team together, and move
down, move down a path and applysome logic.
And thenthe reality is, is people work
(16:35):
better when they enjoy working?
Right. And I think,you know, I like to enjoy
working, I like to, that's alost art. It is a lost art. It's
a lost art. And I think I havemaintained a level of humor
(16:56):
throughout, you know, I mean,you can be you can be doing hard
things and still realize howabsurd they are. And you can
laugh at yourself for failures.
And you can also complementpeople and hold people
accountable all in anenvironment where they still
want to come to the office thenext day, virtually or
otherwise.
(17:18):
And I think I've really overtime.
It's it's leadership and teambuilding that has made me more
more successful than any otherskill on that, on that bucket of
skills you could have.
So what what would yourrecommendation be? So there, you
know that this is a weirdmarket? Right? We just saw that
(17:40):
jobs grew by, you know, a few100,000 jobs this month, which
is fantastic. But that is notnecessarily within all within,
you know, financial services,consumer products or, or health
care. And it's not definitelynot at the executive levels.
(18:03):
Yep. So where, you know, with alot of people facing still
facing uncertainty?
What would you recommend? Like,how should they if they're
thinking of that they're in themarket thinking about their next
opportunity?
How can they either think aboutharnessing those skills to
reinvent themselves for theirnext role? Or is it something
(18:26):
else? Is it networking?
Well, I mean, you know,networking never hurts, right?
But I think networking for thesake of accumulating contacts is
not necessarily valuable.
I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big believerin
stepping back and thinking aboutwhat you really want to do. I
(18:48):
think it's you have to be realcareful, especially if you're in
an environment where you'reworried about losing your job,
or you have that you don't moveso quickly, that you actually
land someplace, it's not goingto make you very happy.
So really thinking about whatmakes you tick, like to your
question, are you directing thatcomment?
(19:11):
No, not at all, I think. Andthen
thinking about how you can solvefor what it said another way. I
think it's just like, setting uppartnership deals or selling the
next opportunity, right? It'snot about what you can get out
of it. It's about what your youcan, what problem you can solve
(19:34):
for the folks you're talking to.
And yes, you have to get intothe conversation to be able to
solve the problem. But I thinkand what I've done in the in the
past as you tie all thosethings, random things together
is packaging and thinking aboutwhat you've done and how it
applies to that new opportunityin such a way that is true and
believable, and then shows aHave your own personal strengths
(20:00):
off, right.
And,again, I think doing it in a way
that's true and believable isextremely important because you
have to believe it, you have tobelieve it yourself.
But it doesn't have to bebecause you've had, you know,
you've got these five boxesticked in that industry or even
(20:21):
in that role that they'relooking for. Right, but that you
can translate that experienceprior experience, and
skill set or competencies or,and highlight for them maybe
what they're not even thinkingabout. Yeah.
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(20:42):
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reach our experts today.
Yeah, one of the so I thinkthat's an awesome point. Because
(21:02):
one of the things I've seen inmy career, and certainly in
consulting is I've sold acrossindustries, I remember the first
time I was brought in, to pitchto a retail client. And my
background really was allfinancial services. And I really
needed to take a step back andthink about, you know, where
does financial services andcredit card industry shine? And
where does retail perhaps fallshort? And how could I highlight
(21:26):
those experiences as somethingthat we could use to move across
and you can benefit from myexperiences, we use data all the
time to analyze customerbehaviors, and here's how we can
do that, and help you andindividuals should do the same
thing. Yep, completely agree.
And even in talking through, andthen when you then when you
(21:47):
land, that new opportunity, andyou really start to look at it,
there's, there's always comfortand saying, like I've done this
before, but in many, many times,you have just a different way of
looking at the same problem,right, turning it on its side a
little bit, which I think canactually create a lot of value
forthe company, you know, in that
new role. It's not that you'vedone it before, it's that you've
(22:09):
done enough of it in, in othersituations to know where some of
those opportunities andpotential pitfalls are.
But you know, I've,I've said this to other folks
who are in leadership roles,that you don't have to be the
best at what you do. You have tobe willing to hire the best on
(22:30):
your team, and let them do whatthey do really well. And but
you'll still give them insightsand guidance that they hadn't
thought about because you justcome from a different seat, you
just come from a differentperspective. Well, that's your
that's your athlete coming backto the table as well. Right.
That's the coach mentality.
(22:52):
Right? Making sure they'rethey're running the right, the
right plays, and they know whereto be.
But not getting in the way oftheir skills necessary. Right. I
mean, even I don't I don't wantto get in dangerous territory.
Right. But I mean, even MichaelJordan was is it needs to be
coached. Right? And so sure, youwant to i, i, it took me, I
(23:16):
think you you get you have toget further in your in your
career to realize that if youcan actually hire five Michael
Jordan's to work for you.
They're going to make youMichael Jordan, even if you
can't dribble. Right? I mean,that's it's absolutely. But I
also agree with you like theeveryone needs to take a step
back and realize where they arefrom a maturity standpoint,
(23:38):
because you probably don'trealize the need for coaching
until you're a little bit older.
Yes. Yeah, I think that's true.
I think that's very true. Youknow, I can I can say for sure.
In my early days, I did notthink I was, you know, I was not
easily coachable.
Don't think any of us are Yes.
And yeah. Or what? Or took you awhile, right? I mean, now I can
(24:01):
now I think I can split. I cansit in a discussion and take in
more. Yep. Then, you know,before that it was I could think
about it overnight. Before that,maybe it took me a week before
that it may have taken me monthsto really understand what was
being shared with me. And Ithink it's important to learn
from both, you know, you findthese people in your career, who
(24:21):
you've worked with, or workedfor who are very strong leaders,
strong coaches, and youdefinitely you learn a lot from
them. But you also have to beinsightful to realize, okay, I'm
working for these other peoplewho are really, really terrible
leaders and crappy coaches. AndI need to learn more from that
as well. Yeah. And what do I notwant to do in the future? Yep,
(24:44):
totally agree with you. I hadsomebody asked me one time like,
you know, where did you get yourleadership style? And I was
like, Well, I think it'sinformed by what how you want to
be led, which oftentimes youlearn from working
For leaders that don't actuallyinspire you sometimes, right?
(25:06):
And yeah, I completely agree, Icompletely agree, there's just a
lot to be.
There's a lot to be pulled outof a career, and an experience
that can really informboth how you behave, but then
also how you can help other teammembers grow in that process.
But you have to be thoughtful.
One of the things I like to askall of my guests is if can you
(25:30):
tell us one or maybe two, tellus about one or maybe two
leaders who you learn from whoinspired you.
So, um,I've had a lot of great I've
had, I've been very fortunate,I've had a lot of great
(25:53):
leaders in my personal andprofessional career, I think
thatthe one I, the one I always like
to start with is my father, whowas extremely thoughtful. He was
a leader through behavior ratherthan through
command. Although, you know,when I was a teenager, there
(26:14):
were a few more commands, thenthere were, I wasn't paying
attention as closely as premiumas I should have. So there was a
little more command. But he wasalso extremely humble, and
was reallyexcited about the success of
people around him. And I think Ilearned I know, I learned a lot
through him, whether he said itout loud, or just showed showed
(26:37):
it over time.
Another leader who II really enjoyed having the
opportunity to work for was BobJohnson, who founded the e. T.
Long successful entrepreneurialcareer.
(26:59):
But the thing I and I learned alot from Bob, but the thing I
learned from Bob is everyconversation ends with a
definite maybe write he was verygood at not taking no. And he
was also very good at asking thequestion that quite frankly.
You thought you knew the answerto and you didn't get the you
you didn't get the answer youthought you would a lot of times
(27:20):
I just it just reallycrystallized for me that the
worst? The worst answer you get,or the worst thing that happens
is they do say no, butoftentimes, they'll say yes to
something that maybeyou didn't expect. And there's,
there's that's there'sopportunity there.
And the third one I would put onthat list,
(27:43):
I believe has been one of yourguests can Reese was, is still
are a friend and a mentor. Frommy perspective, he's brilliant
individual who is also reallyself reflective. And I think
that has made him verysuccessful. He's the first to
tell you what he's done wrong.
(28:06):
And he's a serial entrepreneurwho can each time have really
learned from the prior from thepositive and the negative. But
as also,through my observation, I've
learned I learned from him thatif you have a vision of where
you think you should go,you know, come hell or high
(28:28):
water go make that happen. Andnot everybody's going to agree
with you. But that doesn't meanyou're on the wrong the wrong
path in that process. So Ireally I love I love working for
Kenfor a lot of reasons. But I was
really very, I took a lot fromthat experience. And he'd be the
first one to say like, Well,yeah, you learn how not to do
(28:49):
it. ButI learned I learned a heck of a
lot more about how to do it thanthe other way around. Yeah. So
it's a wild ride. But yeah,but yeah, I totally agree. I
totally agree with that. specialpeople. Definitely.
That's awesome. So what youknow, one, one last thing before
(29:13):
we before we park,you balance your role as a CEO,
board member, spouse, and mom.
to teenagers. It's not easy. Howdo you balance everything?
(29:36):
I think I'm in a perpetual stateof not feeling that I'm really
balancing them is the honestanswer.
There's there's no such thing asperfect. And I'm a
I don't like that as an answer.
I spend more timereflecting on things I think I
did poorly than things I didwell, but
(30:00):
But at the same time, I may notgo back to the comment I made
before and nothing that I dooutside of being a parent is
going to really change anybody'sever he's going to wake up
tomorrow. And so I try andremember that too.
I think there's a certaincompulsion in me and maybe in
others who were like, you justalways want to be doing better
(30:22):
and doing more, maybe not moreor doing better. And maybe that
makes me a little bit better atbalancing all that, but also
probably a little more criticalat that. That's great. I think I
have to be real careful.
On who on what I put first onany one day.
And that's sometimes hard tohard to know. But
(30:45):
you know, you do the best youcan you give yourself the same
grace that you hopefully givethe folks that are around you.
And, and get a little bit betterat it all the time. If you don't
look to your teenagers forfeedback wouldn't be one.
And I had a I had a friend toldme the other day, he's in an
(31:06):
executive role. And he said,Yeah, I learned with my
teenagers, I can't treat themlike they're my employees.
I said, I don't know if that'sgood or bad for your employees
or your kids. Right? I'm notsure what other than I would
agree. But yes.
Yeah, they're the I work forthem. I think you're their
(31:27):
general perspective, andcertainly not the perspective of
me or my husband. But you know,at the same time, it's kind of
like I don't know, maybe we gotstarted a little later. Like,
we're older parents. And somaybe we're maybe we have a
little more to bring to thetable for them. But maybe we
maybe they would be better offif we were like, a little more
(31:49):
malleable than that, then? Idon't know. I don't know. But
the balance is hard. And I thinkwe all have to just be easy on
each other. I would go a littlebit back to like in the work
world.
I tried to be very clear, Ithink it's actually one of the
things. One of the good thingsthat came out of COVID. And
they're not a lot of a lot ofthem. But we think about how
life has changed. I think it wasreally healthy for my team to
(32:12):
see that my they weren't bothteenagers then but that they
would walk into my office in themiddle of a call just like their
kids did. Right and asked metotally ridiculous questions,
because it seemed important tothem at the time. Yep.
It's the human I really tried toat the office to be very clear
about, yeah, I'm dealing withthe same human things that
(32:33):
everybody else is. That's great.
So I want to thank you for forjoining us.
As I mentioned earlier, you werean inspiring leader to me. And I
think you have a lot to shareand a lot to teach to teach
others. So thank you so much.
Well, thank you, Jason. I madetime for this because I have the
(32:53):
same level of respect for youand always enjoyed working with
you but more importantly,staying connected and continuing
to learn. So I appreciate theopportunity. Thank you. Thanks
again. All right, thank you.
Thanks for listening to theleaders perspective podcast
brought to you by a celladvisors. Visit a cell dash
(33:17):
advisors.com For moreinformation about our growth
turnaround, optimization, riskin HR Advisory Services
LLC, and is available onYouTube, Apple and Spotify.
Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast
where we engage with TripleThreat leaders to learn about
their lives, careers andleadership philosophies, and
chat with our guests about a hottopic in business or society. As
a reminder, a Triple Threatleader is one who embodies the
very best of leadership and whohas strong IQ, EQ and DQ,
(00:22):
intelligence quotient, emotionalquotient, and decency quotient.
executives across all industriesare finding themselves in a
unique position, following aperiod of growth and now
uncertainty in the economy.
While job growth is strong,we're finding that workers
across tech, financial services,and even healthcare find their
jobs at risk. Career reinventionis key to success. And this can
(00:47):
be in through the form of formaleducation, online courses, and
more often through appliedexperience and self created
business opportunities. Knowinghow to leverage one's skills is
as important as having expertisein any one industry or career
path. My guest today is thesingle strongest leader I've had
(01:07):
the opportunity to work for inmy career, and she is someone
who truly embodies Triple Threatleadership.
Kathy Boden Holland started hercareer as a consultant at
Deloitte, who then made her wayinto the VC and PE worlds. She
was a managing partner at BlueHouse capital, and later was
(01:29):
executive vice president atUrban trust holdings.
After the urban trust holdings,Kathy was president of RLJ
financial investing in newproducts for underbanked
consumers.
Cathy was Executive VicePresident of Corporate
Development for think finance,and then Executive Vice
President of bank products,Executive Vice President of
(01:52):
Corporate Development, and chiefrisk officer for elevate credit.
Cathy then shifted intohealthcare and education as
Group President of adtelehealth, a role where she
oversaw nursing, medical andveterinary schools educating
over 40,000 students across theUS, UK and the Caribbean.
(02:14):
Currently, Cathy is CEO ofconsumer safety technology, a
company which offers productsthat deter impaired driving. She
earned her BA from theUniversity of Pennsylvania where
she played women's basketballfor four years, and earned her
MBA from the UNC Kenan FlaglerBusiness School. Kathy is an
advisory board member of the UNCCenter for Business of health,
(02:37):
and resides in Denver, Colorado,with her husband and two
children.
Voiceover (02:42):
Welcome to the leaders perspective podcast
where we talk to Triple Threatleaders about the people
products, trends and experiencesthat influence business. I'm now
pleased to introduce your host,Jason Goldberg.
Jason Goldberg (03:07):
Welcome, Kathy to the leaders perspective
podcast. So happy to have youon. Thank you, Jason. It's been
a long time in the making.
She you and I met talked tobelieve seven years ago now.
That is hard to believe.
Kathy Boden Holland (03:22):
That might actually be too low of a number.
But yeah, so. Yeah. So yeah,you're at Elevate at the time
and
Jason Goldberg (03:30):
I quickly jumped at the chance to to work with
you there, which was a highlightof my career.
Sotell the listeners all about you
who you are, what makes youtick.
Kathy Boden Holland (03:46):
Ah, let's see. I am. I am a resident in
the Colorado area. I have twoteenagers, one husband, two
dogs. And I always like to addwe have one guinea pig and we've
been here about 10 years weenjoy it. We are skiers,
everybody always asked thatquestion. Yes.
Unknown (04:09):
What makes me tick is really depends on the topic,
right? But what makes me tick,personally is enjoying time with
family and friends and andgetting around and actually
having the opportunity to dothat. I think I'm even more
conscious of that. Post COVID,as many of us are.
What makes me tickprofessionally is
(04:30):
kind of jumping into the deepend and trying new things on a
regular basis. And as I'vegotten older, working with
people that I enjoy workingwith, I think is probably even
higher on my list ofrequirements to to jump in from
a professional perspective.
You're somebody whois think brings balance to the
workplace. And by that I meanyou know, no matter what's going
(04:55):
on how frenzied the environmentis how crazy the objectives
you bring this level of clarityto the objective like you, you
really distill it plus, youbring, you know, humor and
compassion, structure all inone. So how do you do that?
(05:21):
Well, thank you, I,there, there are plenty of days
with teenagers where I don'tfeel like I bring any of that
clarity or calmness to thetable. So maybe I'm using it at
the office.
But I think Ihaving a couple of things that
really influenced me when I whenI look back, like one is
(05:42):
I was an athlete growing up, Ienjoyed the competition.
But equally, I enjoyed theprocess of putting a team or
being on a team, I shouldn't sayputting a team together but
being on a team and gettingbetter, kind of the grind of
getting better. And I had thepleasure of working for some
(06:03):
really good game coaches, who,you know, we're very good at
recentering you on what'simportant that moment in time,
like not getting worked up aboutthings you can't control.
The other part is having reallystarted my career in consulting,
I think you see, I had theluxury of seeing a lot of things
(06:25):
not going well, that right,that's when you're oftentimes
brought in.
Andreally having the, again, luxury
of working for people who werecapable of thinking things
through focusing on the thingsthat matter, and, and keeping
your eyes you know, quote,unquote, keeping your eye on
(06:47):
the, on the end goal. And Ithink it just influenced me, I
would say,you know, at my roots, so to
speak.
And then I think the other part,which is just a benefit from my
perspective, I you know, I justgrew up in a really great
household where, you know, athome, it was just, it was easy.
(07:08):
And so whatever else washappening in around the world
was, was just less, not lessimportant. But you could always
get re centered. And I thinkthat's something that all of us
have to keep in mind thatwhatever we're doing very, very
few of us are impacting.
(07:28):
You know, everybody's gonna wakeup the next morning, we may not
be happy with the outcome, buteveryone's gonna wake up the
next morning. And that'sprobably the most important
part. That's great. So you lead,you were
CEO of your president of aeducational institution, during
(07:50):
COVID.
Gothis is this was an institution
that had nursing schools,medical schools, veterinary, and
in the US, like dozens ofcampuses in the US five
countries, right? Yep. And youhad to figure out how to educate
(08:10):
healthcare professionals.
At a time when health careprofessionals were like running
away from their fields, andcouldn't be present than there
was high risk.
Probably, I'm guessing probablythe most high stakes moment of
your career. Yeah, actually, youknow, probably the only time it
(08:32):
mattered about like, Waseverybody going to wake up the
next day type of my comment. SoI had the luxury of working with
exceptional academic leaders,right. So my role was really to
make sure that we wererunning quality schools from my,
you know, from a business andoperational perspective, and
(08:53):
that I had high quality academicleaders in roles and that they
built the right faculty and theright content. But to be very
clear, I was not an educator, Ihad the luxury of working with
just some fabulous educators.
And then in partnership, really,with people across our
(09:15):
organization, who are allfocused on the same thing. So
yeah, we had 2028 campuses, fivecountries, 40,000 students.
Anything that you could possiblyimagine happened in those, you
know, couple months,especially having people abroad.
(09:36):
It was everything was everythingwas happening real time and we
were all there, right. And notonly was it different in
different areas of the country,as it kind of flowed through
back and forth across thecountry, but different parts of
the world. And in that case, youwere really managing students,
their parents, our teamOur faculty, and then a whole
(10:00):
lot of regulatory bodies thatwere also figuring it out on a
real time basis. So I think thekey to success and I think
really we didan exceptional job. And I think
in looking back, there's no onedecision where I would say,
well, we blew that. I mean, Ithink we really took a very nice
(10:20):
approach across the board, and Icompliment the team. And my, my
peers for that. So but at thesame time, it's it's impossible
to know,it's impossible to know where
you had 45,000 eyes on you,right? You had you had all of
the all of the students, theirfamilies, your employees looking
(10:40):
at you saying, what do we do?
And so clearly, you can't handlethat all yourself. So you had to
set tone and direction and theneveryone had to make decisions.
So how do you go about that? Ithink I think in any
circumstance, you have to,especially one like that, like a
test your test your approach,right, you have to be very clear
(11:02):
that you don't actually have theanswers, right, and that you
kind of, you have to keep comingback to what's the what's the
right thing to do. And in thatenvironment, everybody has,
everybody has a slightlydifferent view of what's the
right thing to do. But like, atthe end of the day, it's you're
trying to both make everyonesafe. That was probably the
(11:22):
first and foremost. But then asthe, as the pandemic wore on,
it's also of people have to getthrough their education. And you
have to figure out how to dothat in a way that's a quality
experience for them. And for theschool, and then for their
ultimate employers. And that Ithink was actually a bigger
challenge, because you don'treally control what the what a
(11:44):
accreditation society decides orwhether or not they're going to
start providing the MCAT again,or whether or not, you know,
they're going to be able to taketheir
the first series in order to getinto the residency, so, or
they're going to be able to getinto like nursing students, or
they're going to be able toactually have all their
practicums that they need tohave in order to graduate.
(12:06):
Because hospitals can't havepeople in and out of them. So
for me,and I wasn't the only one,
right. I mean, I was one of asenior team, it was really
around, hashing it out, but alsobeing very clear that we don't,
we don't have all the answers,this is how we got to this
conclusion, or this decision.
(12:27):
And this is what we're gonnawatch to see
if that's the right decision.
So, you know, being astransparent as you possibly can
to a broad group, you're gonnahave lots of people who are not
happy with it. But if they canat least understand the process,
that were the conclusion. That'shelpful.
(12:51):
So one of the things we wantedto talk about today
is the notion of reinvention.
And as I mentioned, during theintro, you started your career
in consulting and healthcare,consulting, and then made your
way to the VC, pe world, andthen corporate development
(13:13):
into financial products somehow,which was probably a big
mistake.
And then, and even within thatit was corporate development,
product and portfolioleadership, that you had
partnerships, you had your chiefrisk officer at one point,
definitely, that's how, that'show we knew you really lost your
(13:35):
mind.
And, and then from there, madethe hop into for profit, Medical
Edge medical, medical education,and now consumer products. So
what's fascinating, and as youlike to tell it, there, there is
a story behind the madness.
(13:58):
You have, you must haveleveraged core skills.
Because it's not necessarilyindustry knowledge that you've
taken from from place to place.
So talk to us about thatjourney, and how you've
leveraged those skills toreinvent yourself over time.
Yeah, soyeah, like I said, I can give it
(14:21):
a voiceover and I actually hadsomebody tell me one time wow,
that's a great story. And I waslike, Well, only if you hear me,
only hear me tie it alltogether. It's not really a
great story on paper. I mean,it's a hard it's hard to follow
the dots but a little bit goesback to what I said, what makes
me tick, right? I like to jumpinto the deep end of things and
(14:42):
figure them out. And what I'vecome to realize as I again as
I've gotten older is it's notalways about figuring them out
but also making sure you havethe right teammates around you
andand maybe not always having the
best solution but having theright dialogue to see if you can
get there. So I think you startto build Old
(15:03):
won a little bit of a reputationof being capable of quote
unquote figuring it out, whichreally kind of at its core
starts in consulting, right,that's how you learn, and
presenting it, and being able tocommunicate,
but also in being able toformulate a logic to how you're
going to get from point A topoint B. And
(15:28):
maybe better now than earlier inmy career a little bit more
humbleness to say, when you'vegot it wrong, and that you're
going to reevaluate your logicand and start over. So I think
it'sI'm not sure there's any one
core skill other thanreally continually improving,
but also building I think, Iwould say a lot of them go back
(15:53):
to building your leadershipcapabilities. I mean, when I
think about what how I got intosome of the roles I got into
where I was offered theopportunity to jump into the
deep end, as you said, You'reabsolutely right. It wasn't
because I,I knew that space really well,
but because I think I haddemonstrated either real time
(16:13):
because I'd work with folksbefore, or I had been pointed
out to somebody else, because Ihad
demonstrated an ability to bothpull the team together, and move
down, move down a path and applysome logic.
And thenthe reality is, is people work
(16:35):
better when they enjoy working?
Right. And I think,you know, I like to enjoy
working, I like to, that's alost art. It is a lost art. It's
a lost art. And I think I havemaintained a level of humor
(16:56):
throughout, you know, I mean,you can be you can be doing hard
things and still realize howabsurd they are. And you can
laugh at yourself for failures.
And you can also complementpeople and hold people
accountable all in anenvironment where they still
want to come to the office thenext day, virtually or
otherwise.
(17:18):
And I think I've really overtime.
It's it's leadership and teambuilding that has made me more
more successful than any otherskill on that, on that bucket of
skills you could have.
So what what would yourrecommendation be? So there, you
know that this is a weirdmarket? Right? We just saw that
(17:40):
jobs grew by, you know, a few100,000 jobs this month, which
is fantastic. But that is notnecessarily within all within,
you know, financial services,consumer products or, or health
care. And it's not definitelynot at the executive levels.
(18:03):
Yep. So where, you know, with alot of people facing still
facing uncertainty?
What would you recommend? Like,how should they if they're
thinking of that they're in themarket thinking about their next
opportunity?
How can they either think aboutharnessing those skills to
reinvent themselves for theirnext role? Or is it something
(18:26):
else? Is it networking?
Well, I mean, you know,networking never hurts, right?
But I think networking for thesake of accumulating contacts is
not necessarily valuable.
I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big believerin
stepping back and thinking aboutwhat you really want to do. I
(18:48):
think it's you have to be realcareful, especially if you're in
an environment where you'reworried about losing your job,
or you have that you don't moveso quickly, that you actually
land someplace, it's not goingto make you very happy.
So really thinking about whatmakes you tick, like to your
question, are you directing thatcomment?
(19:11):
No, not at all, I think. Andthen
thinking about how you can solvefor what it said another way. I
think it's just like, setting uppartnership deals or selling the
next opportunity, right? It'snot about what you can get out
of it. It's about what your youcan, what problem you can solve
(19:34):
for the folks you're talking to.
And yes, you have to get intothe conversation to be able to
solve the problem. But I thinkand what I've done in the in the
past as you tie all thosethings, random things together
is packaging and thinking aboutwhat you've done and how it
applies to that new opportunityin such a way that is true and
believable, and then shows aHave your own personal strengths
(20:00):
off, right.
And,again, I think doing it in a way
that's true and believable isextremely important because you
have to believe it, you have tobelieve it yourself.
But it doesn't have to bebecause you've had, you know,
you've got these five boxesticked in that industry or even
(20:21):
in that role that they'relooking for. Right, but that you
can translate that experienceprior experience, and
skill set or competencies or,and highlight for them maybe
what they're not even thinkingabout. Yeah.
Cell advisors, expertconsultants, or all veteran
(20:42):
operators to bring realsolutions to your business
challenges, contact us at infoat a cell dash advisors.com To
reach our experts today.
Yeah, one of the so I thinkthat's an awesome point. Because
(21:02):
one of the things I've seen inmy career, and certainly in
consulting is I've sold acrossindustries, I remember the first
time I was brought in, to pitchto a retail client. And my
background really was allfinancial services. And I really
needed to take a step back andthink about, you know, where
does financial services andcredit card industry shine? And
where does retail perhaps fallshort? And how could I highlight
(21:26):
those experiences as somethingthat we could use to move across
and you can benefit from myexperiences, we use data all the
time to analyze customerbehaviors, and here's how we can
do that, and help you andindividuals should do the same
thing. Yep, completely agree.
And even in talking through, andthen when you then when you
(21:47):
land, that new opportunity, andyou really start to look at it,
there's, there's always comfortand saying, like I've done this
before, but in many, many times,you have just a different way of
looking at the same problem,right, turning it on its side a
little bit, which I think canactually create a lot of value
forthe company, you know, in that
new role. It's not that you'vedone it before, it's that you've
(22:09):
done enough of it in, in othersituations to know where some of
those opportunities andpotential pitfalls are.
But you know, I've,I've said this to other folks
who are in leadership roles,that you don't have to be the
best at what you do. You have tobe willing to hire the best on
(22:30):
your team, and let them do whatthey do really well. And but
you'll still give them insightsand guidance that they hadn't
thought about because you justcome from a different seat, you
just come from a differentperspective. Well, that's your
that's your athlete coming backto the table as well. Right.
That's the coach mentality.
(22:52):
Right? Making sure they'rethey're running the right, the
right plays, and they know whereto be.
But not getting in the way oftheir skills necessary. Right. I
mean, even I don't I don't wantto get in dangerous territory.
Right. But I mean, even MichaelJordan was is it needs to be
coached. Right? And so sure, youwant to i, i, it took me, I
(23:16):
think you you get you have toget further in your in your
career to realize that if youcan actually hire five Michael
Jordan's to work for you.
They're going to make youMichael Jordan, even if you
can't dribble. Right? I mean,that's it's absolutely. But I
also agree with you like theeveryone needs to take a step
back and realize where they arefrom a maturity standpoint,
(23:38):
because you probably don'trealize the need for coaching
until you're a little bit older.
Yes. Yeah, I think that's true.
I think that's very true. Youknow, I can I can say for sure.
In my early days, I did notthink I was, you know, I was not
easily coachable.
Don't think any of us are Yes.
And yeah. Or what? Or took you awhile, right? I mean, now I can
(24:01):
now I think I can split. I cansit in a discussion and take in
more. Yep. Then, you know,before that it was I could think
about it overnight. Before that,maybe it took me a week before
that it may have taken me monthsto really understand what was
being shared with me. And Ithink it's important to learn
from both, you know, you findthese people in your career, who
(24:21):
you've worked with, or workedfor who are very strong leaders,
strong coaches, and youdefinitely you learn a lot from
them. But you also have to beinsightful to realize, okay, I'm
working for these other peoplewho are really, really terrible
leaders and crappy coaches. AndI need to learn more from that
as well. Yeah. And what do I notwant to do in the future? Yep,
(24:44):
totally agree with you. I hadsomebody asked me one time like,
you know, where did you get yourleadership style? And I was
like, Well, I think it'sinformed by what how you want to
be led, which oftentimes youlearn from working
For leaders that don't actuallyinspire you sometimes, right?
(25:06):
And yeah, I completely agree, Icompletely agree, there's just a
lot to be.
There's a lot to be pulled outof a career, and an experience
that can really informboth how you behave, but then
also how you can help other teammembers grow in that process.
But you have to be thoughtful.
One of the things I like to askall of my guests is if can you
(25:30):
tell us one or maybe two, tellus about one or maybe two
leaders who you learn from whoinspired you.
So, um,I've had a lot of great I've
had, I've been very fortunate,I've had a lot of great
(25:53):
leaders in my personal andprofessional career, I think
thatthe one I, the one I always like
to start with is my father, whowas extremely thoughtful. He was
a leader through behavior ratherthan through
command. Although, you know,when I was a teenager, there
(26:14):
were a few more commands, thenthere were, I wasn't paying
attention as closely as premiumas I should have. So there was a
little more command. But he wasalso extremely humble, and
was reallyexcited about the success of
people around him. And I think Ilearned I know, I learned a lot
through him, whether he said itout loud, or just showed showed
(26:37):
it over time.
Another leader who II really enjoyed having the
opportunity to work for was BobJohnson, who founded the e. T.
Long successful entrepreneurialcareer.
(26:59):
But the thing I and I learned alot from Bob, but the thing I
learned from Bob is everyconversation ends with a
definite maybe write he was verygood at not taking no. And he
was also very good at asking thequestion that quite frankly.
You thought you knew the answerto and you didn't get the you
you didn't get the answer youthought you would a lot of times
(27:20):
I just it just reallycrystallized for me that the
worst? The worst answer you get,or the worst thing that happens
is they do say no, butoftentimes, they'll say yes to
something that maybeyou didn't expect. And there's,
there's that's there'sopportunity there.
And the third one I would put onthat list,
(27:43):
I believe has been one of yourguests can Reese was, is still
are a friend and a mentor. Frommy perspective, he's brilliant
individual who is also reallyself reflective. And I think
that has made him verysuccessful. He's the first to
tell you what he's done wrong.
(28:06):
And he's a serial entrepreneurwho can each time have really
learned from the prior from thepositive and the negative. But
as also,through my observation, I've
learned I learned from him thatif you have a vision of where
you think you should go,you know, come hell or high
(28:28):
water go make that happen. Andnot everybody's going to agree
with you. But that doesn't meanyou're on the wrong the wrong
path in that process. So Ireally I love I love working for
Kenfor a lot of reasons. But I was
really very, I took a lot fromthat experience. And he'd be the
first one to say like, Well,yeah, you learn how not to do
(28:49):
it. ButI learned I learned a heck of a
lot more about how to do it thanthe other way around. Yeah. So
it's a wild ride. But yeah,but yeah, I totally agree. I
totally agree with that. specialpeople. Definitely.
That's awesome. So what youknow, one, one last thing before
(29:13):
we before we park,you balance your role as a CEO,
board member, spouse, and mom.
to teenagers. It's not easy. Howdo you balance everything?
(29:36):
I think I'm in a perpetual stateof not feeling that I'm really
balancing them is the honestanswer.
There's there's no such thing asperfect. And I'm a
I don't like that as an answer.
I spend more timereflecting on things I think I
did poorly than things I didwell, but
(30:00):
But at the same time, I may notgo back to the comment I made
before and nothing that I dooutside of being a parent is
going to really change anybody'sever he's going to wake up
tomorrow. And so I try andremember that too.
I think there's a certaincompulsion in me and maybe in
others who were like, you justalways want to be doing better
(30:22):
and doing more, maybe not moreor doing better. And maybe that
makes me a little bit better atbalancing all that, but also
probably a little more criticalat that. That's great. I think I
have to be real careful.
On who on what I put first onany one day.
And that's sometimes hard tohard to know. But
(30:45):
you know, you do the best youcan you give yourself the same
grace that you hopefully givethe folks that are around you.
And, and get a little bit betterat it all the time. If you don't
look to your teenagers forfeedback wouldn't be one.
And I had a I had a friend toldme the other day, he's in an
(31:06):
executive role. And he said,Yeah, I learned with my
teenagers, I can't treat themlike they're my employees.
I said, I don't know if that'sgood or bad for your employees
or your kids. Right? I'm notsure what other than I would
agree. But yes.
Yeah, they're the I work forthem. I think you're their
(31:27):
general perspective, andcertainly not the perspective of
me or my husband. But you know,at the same time, it's kind of
like I don't know, maybe we gotstarted a little later. Like,
we're older parents. And somaybe we're maybe we have a
little more to bring to thetable for them. But maybe we
maybe they would be better offif we were like, a little more
(31:49):
malleable than that, then? Idon't know. I don't know. But
the balance is hard. And I thinkwe all have to just be easy on
each other. I would go a littlebit back to like in the work
world.
I tried to be very clear, Ithink it's actually one of the
things. One of the good thingsthat came out of COVID. And
they're not a lot of a lot ofthem. But we think about how
life has changed. I think it wasreally healthy for my team to
(32:12):
see that my they weren't bothteenagers then but that they
would walk into my office in themiddle of a call just like their
kids did. Right and asked metotally ridiculous questions,
because it seemed important tothem at the time. Yep.
It's the human I really tried toat the office to be very clear
about, yeah, I'm dealing withthe same human things that
(32:33):
everybody else is. That's great.
So I want to thank you for forjoining us.
As I mentioned earlier, you werean inspiring leader to me. And I
think you have a lot to shareand a lot to teach to teach
others. So thank you so much.
Well, thank you, Jason. I madetime for this because I have the
(32:53):
same level of respect for youand always enjoyed working with
you but more importantly,staying connected and continuing
to learn. So I appreciate theopportunity. Thank you. Thanks
again. All right, thank you.
Thanks for listening to theleaders perspective podcast
brought to you by a celladvisors. Visit a cell dash
(33:17):
advisors.com For moreinformation about our growth
turnaround, optimization, riskin HR Advisory Services
LLC, and is available onYouTube, Apple and Spotify.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!