May 7, 2025 • 25 mins
Ever wondered why we sometimes make snap judgments, nod along without understanding, or rush into action without thinking? It's not because we're incompetent—it's because our brains love shortcuts.
Cognitive biases are the brain's methodology for simplifying decision-making. They're not inherently bad—they evolved to keep us safe and help us process information quickly. But in today's complex workplace, these mental shortcuts can lead us astray when thoughtful consideration is what's actually needed. In this enlightening conversation, we unpack several cognitive biases through memorable character personas that make these abstract concepts both accessible and actionable.
Meet "Soundbite Steve," who forms opinions based on fragments of information, casting judgment without understanding the full context. There's "Get Along Gary," who nods enthusiastically while claiming to understand, but never asks clarifying questions out of fear of appearing incompetent. We explore the damaging leadership archetype of "All-Knowing Alberto," whose inability to show vulnerability creates a culture where employees stop thinking for themselves. And don't forget "Running Rodney," always eager to execute without seeking clarity on expectations.
The most powerful realization? These aren't just "other people" problems—we all slip into these patterns. When leaders exhibit these biases, they actually induce corresponding biases in their staff, creating organizational cultures that diminish collective brainpower rather than expanding it. The antidote begins with awareness and asking ourselves: "Do I need to think deeply about this, or is skimming the surface appropriate right now?"
Drawing from our upcoming book "Think," we offer not just recognition of these patterns but practical strategies for breaking free from unhelpful cognitive shortcuts. By understanding when to slow down and engage our logical brain instead of letting our "lizard brain" run on autopilot, we can make better decisions, communicate more effectively, and create environments where everyone's thinking potential is maximized rather than constrained.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning Tammy and Scott Morning.
Tammy (00:05):
Karman.
Scott (00:06):
What's going on, norm?
I mean Karman.
Karman (00:14):
Scott, you seem less sassy than you were last Monday
morning.
Scott (00:21):
I'm just warming up.
Tammy (00:23):
Yeah, he probably only got up at like 4 o'clock this
morning, so it's for him this is, like you know, middle of his
day well, I'll wait for the warmup and be very, very afraid
yeah, they see Scott as the lamb.
So interesting, sweet one, thenice one.
(00:46):
Yeah, they see Scott as thelamb.
Karman (00:48):
So interesting, sweet one, the nice one, I'm
speechless.
So last week we talked a littlebit about a new employee who
was maybe struggling a littlebit with information overload,
their perception of informationoverload in a new job, and it is
(01:12):
making me think about your book, think, and how we just all of
us sort of deal in differentways with information overload.
Right, there's a lot coming atus and in the book you explain
that in the context of a coupledifferent personality types,
(01:35):
personas and how they processinformation, and I wondered if
this morning you would tell usabout a couple of those types of
people and what you know.
How do you recognize them andwhat are the pitfalls of working
with people who have that wayof absorbing information or not
(01:59):
absorbing it?
Tammy (02:01):
So,
Karman (02:01):
carmen
Tammy (02:01):
, what you're really talking about is cognitive
biases, and you know that's alot of words, a lot of syllables
in that particular spot, andfolks who are not into
neuroscience you know it canreally like your eyes glaze over
as they kind of go through allthe research.
And so we actually made thedecision to just take those
cognitive biases, put personason them and make it more playful
(02:24):
so that it's easy to remember,right?
And so all of us the three ofus here, as well as anyone
listening we all have cognitivebiases because it's our brain's
methodology of doing shortcutsfor us so that we don't have to
think deeply about everything.
(02:44):
And there are reasons for thoseshortcuts, part of the reason
why we're here today.
They keep us safe, okay.
However, letting our brain doshortcuts all the time is not
healthy for things where we needto really think things through,
consider other options, allthose kinds of things.
So we have some personas tohelp us understand what those
(03:08):
typical cognitive biases are andhow you cannot fall into those
habits when it's not appropriate, right?
So, scott, which one of them islike?
We have a bunch of them.
What's one of your favorites?
Scott (03:21):
Before I answer that, what I was reflecting on is we
should probably just take, youknow, 15 or 20 seconds and just
say, like the premise of thebook, before we talk about the
biases, right, and I think whattriggered this book for you and
I was really what we werenoticing as we worked with
(03:43):
clients and as we worked withourselves and as we worked with
staff, and all of it is thatpeople wait a minute, wait a
minute, I'm kidding.
Tammy (03:54):
Yeah, no, kermit, it's true, it was staff as well.
I mean, we were like it's allof us right.
Scott (04:01):
There are, there are moments in time where we all
fall into this.
What we were noticing is lotsof information coming at people
(04:27):
some of it good information,some of it not good the lizard
part of their brain, which isthe habit, or these biases,
versus working in the logic sideof their brain, and what we
realized as we started to lookwas this is more and more common
than we think.
We chuckled about it and said,well, like we probably should
write a book because that mightbe kind of interesting.
And so that's how these biases,right, these personas, were
(04:48):
created.
And it really is.
The shameless plug for the bookis really it is a book that
describes these personas and thebiases, as well as provides
tactics to how can you get overthat, how can you get out of the
lizard part of your brain thereality that, even though you
(05:08):
might not think you do this, youdo.
We all do.
Tammy (05:12):
We probably have already done it this morning in this
podcast.
Yes, and so we're not beatingpeople up to say you know,
you're a shallow thinker, you'restupid.
We're actually saying, hey,take a look at this and
recognize that this is probablyyou, and when you see it, asking
yourself this question, do Ineed to think deeply about this,
(05:35):
or is it okay for me to rightnow, just kind of skim the top
of it and in the end we're goingto need both.
Right, there are times whendeep thinking is critical and
then there are times when,honestly, we can get by with
just a little bit of a skim.
It's really making thatdistinction, right, yeah?
Scott (05:57):
So to your question, who I think my favorite persona is?
Soundbite Steve.
Tammy (06:03):
Oh, tell us about Soundbite, steve.
Scott (06:05):
Oh, tell us about soundbite Steve.
Okay, so soundbite Steve is theperson who hears nuggets of
information.
Maybe it's the first thing theyhear, maybe it's just this one
little piece of information andthey accept that as the truth.
They accept that as oh yeah,that must be right.
They cast judgment, they makedecisions, they take action
(06:27):
based on what may or may not beaccurate information.
Now, part of that stands outfor me because I had an old boss
who was that and could bepretty harsh, arrogant, kind of
an asshole sometimes and reallywas using information without
(06:53):
fully understanding and wouldalready make a decision and run.
Tammy (06:59):
Do you know, scott, consultants get blamed for that
too.
They go in, they haveconversations with staff right
In that spot.
They will oftentimes hear thisone bit of information and they
take that and then they see theworld through that moving
forward right.
(07:20):
It's like having the formalname confirmation bias in that
particular case, whereeverything then falls into kind
of that perspective and it'sjust this.
They don't understand fullcontext.
They have one piece ofinformation and they move
forward with that informationand that really is.
That really is soundbite, steve, and I've seen that over and
(07:44):
over and over and over in mylife and it's something we fight
when we go into organizationsto make sure that we are not
right.
Soundbite Steves.
Scott (07:53):
Yeah.
And again, we can chuckle aboutthese personas and people will
read them and hear about themand they'll be like, oh yeah,
that's so-and-so.
Or that's oh, that'ssuch-and-such.
Well, that's my old boss, I'vefallen into that.
There are times where, like Ican think with the kids when
they were little they'd dosomething or I'd hear something
(08:14):
and I'd be frustrated and it'slike I don't fully understand,
right.
Or you hear the tail end of aconversation and you think you
know it all.
I mean, we've all done this.
Tammy (08:28):
Yeah, one of my favorite in the book is Get Along Gary,
and I will tell you the reasonwhy Get Along Gary is-.
Scott (08:37):
Distant cousin from Hopalong.
Tammy (08:39):
Yes, distant cousin from Avalon.
But I remember being 27 and myboss would say something and I'd
say yep, I know that It'd belike he was trying to help me
grow and see something or giveme some information, whatever
(09:00):
that was, and I had a tendencyjust to nod my head and be like
yep, I got it, yep, I got it.
Yep, I got it.
Yep, I know that.
And the fact of the matter is Inever gave him the chance to
fully explain.
I never asked more questions.
I wanted to look smart, capableand competent and so I was
(09:22):
trying very hard simply to belike yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,
yep.
And unfortunately I didn'tunderstand at 27 that by saying
yep and like being ready to goactually made me look dumb and I
didn't ask questions.
I didn't, and I didn't askquestions, I didn't delve into
(09:47):
what success looked like.
I didn't.
I just was like I'm going to goand take action.
And that spot, getting along inthat place actually hurt me.
And he kept trying to tell methis.
I mean, I recognized this 10years later or so that he was
actually trying very hard for meto not be a get along, gary,
(10:07):
and I was not making it easy onhim at all.
Right?
So that concept of just youknow, give me the basic
information and then let me goprove myself.
That is a typical get along Garykind of thing that we see in
workplaces all the time.
I absolutely had it at 27.
I don't have it at 64.
(10:29):
Because I learned that lesson.
I learned that I needed to askquestions.
I learned that I needed toensure that I understood what my
boss said.
There were certain words but Imight interpret those in a
different way and if I didn't,when I went and took action
there was a really good chance Iwas not gonna bring something
(10:51):
to the table that actually metmy boss's expectations.
So that's Get Along Gary I lovein the book because Get Along
Gary was Tammy at 27.
Scott (11:02):
Yeah.
Tammy (11:03):
Absolutely.
Scott (11:04):
What I've had folks yep, I know, yep, I know, yep, I know
.
One of my favorite questions toask, which is a little bit
tongue in cheek, is you say youknow and your performance is not
quite to par.
So what that means is youeither don't know or you're
(11:25):
being defiant and or incompetent.
Which one is it?
And let's have a conversationabout like, like, I know, you
think you know it's okay to notknow.
Tammy (11:40):
I think that's the piece Scott is.
Get along, gary's really notknowing, not having the answer
right, then not fully having youknow, comprehension of the
bigger picture, all of thosekinds of things.
That seems really abhorrent toa get along Gary.
Get along, gary wants to please.
We think we're supposed to knoweverything.
(12:04):
That's an interesting thingwith staff Like you're supposed
to know.
I mean, we've talked about thisin the past Even executives
sometimes don't know.
We are actually making our bestwild ass guess and we're going
to see what happens and thenwe're going to learn from it.
(12:28):
But there is this perceptionthat we're supposed to be all
knowing and that in and ofitself is a false, a false
standard to set that you aresupposed to know all things.
And one of the great gifts,again, of being a consultant is
when we go into organizationsand into vertical markets that
(12:49):
we know nothing about, we get toask all sorts of like naive
questions and we learn all sortsof things because we're not in
that company, we're not in thatindustry and it allows us to
stay stupid longer.
And the longer that we can staystupid, the more we learn, the
(13:11):
more we grow, the more that wecan actually long term add value
and so that thing we thinkwe're supposed to be smart,
which is another character inthis book, all knowing, alberto,
do you, scott?
Do you know?
Does that persona hit you atall?
Scott (13:28):
Oh yeah, but I can't say why.
Tammy (13:36):
Oh, you can't say why, alberto, all-knowing Alberto.
Scott (13:47):
Yeah, I can't that one hits a little too close
self-awareness.
Karman (13:52):
Scott is, I think, one of the lessons that become more
group sort of like talks about alot oh so you're saying that
I'm all-knowing, alberto, if theshoe fits, I mean and again,
(14:17):
there is a difference betweenhaving that cognitive bias and
having it be true, or is thatthe cognitive bias showing
itself Now?
Scott (14:23):
I'm confused.
Tammy (14:24):
It's like he's picking.
We need to pick up our feet.
It's getting a little deep inhere in this moment in that
space, but that's a spot, too,that we see in leadership a lot
All-knowing Albertos.
We have leaders who also thinkthat they have to know all
(14:44):
things that they have to like bein this spot where they can
never show any vulnerability.
They cannot show this placewhere they don't know, and it is
an ugly side of leadershipwhere people have to pretend as
if they know all things.
It's extremely ugly, it's very,very arrogant, and that is a
(15:06):
disease that we see sometimes insupervisors, sometimes in
middle managers, sometimes inexecutive managers.
Scott (15:14):
And it's even like this may not fall at.
I'm on the fence of whetherthis falls in there.
I think there is the bias whereyou think you know.
There's also this you do know.
However, you don't allow othersto grow, and we see both ends
(15:39):
of that.
I was at a client last week.
Everything was running throughthe leader, everything.
I got this test result.
I'm going to go turn this valve, I'm going to go do this
no-transcript, and I asked Iasked the person I was with.
I'm like so is that normal?
Yep, is that normal at all thelocations?
Yep, is that what you want?
(16:00):
And they couldn't answer thatquestion.
They're like I'm not sure,because they're working through
some leadership developmentstuff this year.
Is that being addressed and doyou want to address that?
Because maybe that is what youwant, maybe you want that, that
oof, which is probably a wholedifferent podcast.
Tammy (16:19):
It is a whole different podcast and I think that people
don't understand when you are inthat all-knowing Alberto space,
not make space for others whoactually could turn their brains
on add value, do things welland independently of you.
(16:44):
If you know all things and youtreat others as if they don't
know all things right, or theycan't learn all things, or
they're not capable of learning,growing, expanding, you have
now just limited that particularresource.
That's the piece that I thinkpeople don't understand about
(17:05):
being all knowing Albertos.
It's like, yes, you look smart,but then you become the go-to
for everything instead ofactually helping someone know
that they can think these thingsthrough and come to really good
conclusions.
Right, yeah, there's a learningcurve, I get it.
(17:27):
Okay, but if you're, if you areall knowing and all powerful
and you don't take peoplethrough that learning curve, you
will soon have people who stopthinking and just wait for
direction, and that will limitthe organization, and that's not
a leader's job.
A leader's job is not to limitthe organization.
(17:48):
It's to expand the resources,to be a good steward of the
resources that you've been givenand that includes people's
brains of the resources thatyou've been given, and that
includes people's brains, and sothat's the other part of this,
when we think about thesecognitive biases.
As a leader, are you helpingpeople overcome their own
(18:12):
cognitive biases so that we aredeveloping their brains and
those brains can be added to thetreasure trust of this
organization, because that isactually an amazing, it's wealth
.
It is all of this stuff that wecould put into the organization
, we could grow the organizationwith, but if we're like, sorry,
your brain is capped, you'renot capable, we're not doing our
(18:34):
jobs as leaders, and I thinkthat's a big part of this book
as well.
Scott (18:39):
Yeah, and as you were talking about this, I don't know
that we've ever talked about itin this way.
If I'm a leader and I fall preyinto one of the biases, I
actually induce other biasesinto the staff.
Tammy (18:58):
That's correct.
Scott (19:09):
We end up diminishing their brainpower instead of
expanding their brainpower, andmaybe we're not inducing it.
We're inducing it in thatsituation.
They may then apply theirbrainpower in other places.
Tammy (19:18):
Think about this, scott, for just a minute.
How many organizations have wecome into?
And there is a culture whereit's like people just wait to be
told what to do.
They are doers, right.
And if management tells themwhat to do, they will run and
they will go do and they'regreat, okay.
(19:39):
But they have, over time,developed a habit that says it's
not my job to think, it's myjob to respond to leadership.
And when we see that culture,that's a culture that we would
say somewhere in their historyand it could have been at
(19:59):
another company that they'vecome in, or it could be in this
company it was years and yearsago.
But there's a spot where weknow that other people did the
thinking and the staff isactually just executors.
They go and execute.
Whatever that thinking is and tome that's one of the saddest
cultures to walk into is a placewhere it's like don't ask me to
(20:20):
think, that's not my job, okay,because we're diminishing that
human being.
And and I think that happensall of the time and again, some
of us did it to ourselves.
You know, things came in andhappened to us and then we just
decided that's how we were goingto act.
And when we make that our habit, we start to not think highly
(20:42):
of ourselves.
That's the saddest thing of all.
People are not reaching theirpotential.
Scott (20:46):
Carmen, who's your favorite?
Karman (20:47):
I think running Rodney, you know, it goes back a little
bit to Tammy's like oh, I haveto prove that I'm competent and
I'm a, you know, a super doer,and so that idea of like, ok,
you tell Rodney, carmen, rodney,you know, and they're like got
(21:08):
it, I'm off, I'm going to it's.
Tammy (21:11):
Consider it done without asking for context or deadlines
or expectations or details orwhatever.
I think people pleasers Right.
So running Rodneys aretraditionally folks who they
(21:34):
really do want to please others,they really do want to be seen
as competent, they really dowant to get that thing done and
check it off and move on to thenext thing.
And it's not because they don'tcare, it's actually because of
what they care about right inthat spot.
Karman (21:56):
If you had all this time to tell me all the details,
you'd just do it yourself.
I'm saving you time.
Tammy (22:04):
Yeah, yep, and they're making all sorts of assumptions
along that particular way, right, and it's one of those things.
And we've had running Ronniesin our organization Scott and I
both have and they are so like,you know, bright eyed and bushy
(22:25):
tailed, and you, you hate toslow them down because of course
, they feel like that'smicromanagement and this piece
of it is like it's notmicromanagement.
We want you to think before yourun, okay, that's all right and
it's like, but no, I, I, I gotit, I just need to, I'm going to
(22:45):
run.
It's like, hold on, just take abeat, just take a minute.
Right, that, that's hardbecause they're so eager.
I love Rodney's and I hate whenI am one, and I am frequently.
Karman (22:59):
If they take a beat, then they're, you know, slow
decision makers.
Tammy (23:05):
Because of course, that would be just a terrible slow
down to think it would just bean absolutely horrible
organizational value.
And yet we do know thatsometimes we actually now when
there's a fire, someone's dying,right, we need to run.
There are many times that wethink it's a fire and all it is
(23:28):
is a tiny little flame and if wetake a beat we can actually
have a better solution.
And therefore, running Rodney's, you know, don't have to run
towards everything.
There are times when they canjust slow down, think about it
for a minute and then takeaction.
Yeah, I love the characters,scott.
(23:49):
I mean, we had so much funputting them together and kind
of matching kind of a persona tothese cognitive biases and it's
playful and it's fun and it'sso much easier to like, read and
understand neuroscience thanhaving to go in and, you know,
reading a manual on all of this,because we can remember, you
(24:11):
know, the Terry, the trendfollowers and running Rodney's
and soundbite Steves.
Those are easy for us to holdon to and remember, and so we've
really been playful with thatand it'll be fun.
The books it's in editing, it'sin graphics and it should be
out soon.
Good morning Tammy and Scott Morning.
Tammy (00:05):
Karman.
Scott (00:06):
What's going on, norm?
I mean Karman.
Karman (00:14):
Scott, you seem less sassy than you were last Monday
morning.
Scott (00:21):
I'm just warming up.
Tammy (00:23):
Yeah, he probably only got up at like 4 o'clock this
morning, so it's for him this is, like you know, middle of his
day well, I'll wait for the warmup and be very, very afraid
yeah, they see Scott as the lamb.
So interesting, sweet one, thenice one.
(00:46):
Yeah, they see Scott as thelamb.
Karman (00:48):
So interesting, sweet one, the nice one, I'm
speechless.
So last week we talked a littlebit about a new employee who
was maybe struggling a littlebit with information overload,
their perception of informationoverload in a new job, and it is
(01:12):
making me think about your book, think, and how we just all of
us sort of deal in differentways with information overload.
Right, there's a lot coming atus and in the book you explain
that in the context of a coupledifferent personality types,
(01:35):
personas and how they processinformation, and I wondered if
this morning you would tell usabout a couple of those types of
people and what you know.
How do you recognize them andwhat are the pitfalls of working
with people who have that wayof absorbing information or not
(01:59):
absorbing it?
Tammy (02:01):
So,
Karman (02:01):
carmen
Tammy (02:01):
, what you're really talking about is cognitive
biases, and you know that's alot of words, a lot of syllables
in that particular spot, andfolks who are not into
neuroscience you know it canreally like your eyes glaze over
as they kind of go through allthe research.
And so we actually made thedecision to just take those
cognitive biases, put personason them and make it more playful
(02:24):
so that it's easy to remember,right?
And so all of us the three ofus here, as well as anyone
listening we all have cognitivebiases because it's our brain's
methodology of doing shortcutsfor us so that we don't have to
think deeply about everything.
(02:44):
And there are reasons for thoseshortcuts, part of the reason
why we're here today.
They keep us safe, okay.
However, letting our brain doshortcuts all the time is not
healthy for things where we needto really think things through,
consider other options, allthose kinds of things.
So we have some personas tohelp us understand what those
(03:08):
typical cognitive biases are andhow you cannot fall into those
habits when it's not appropriate, right?
So, scott, which one of them islike?
We have a bunch of them.
What's one of your favorites?
Scott (03:21):
Before I answer that, what I was reflecting on is we
should probably just take, youknow, 15 or 20 seconds and just
say, like the premise of thebook, before we talk about the
biases, right, and I think whattriggered this book for you and
I was really what we werenoticing as we worked with
(03:43):
clients and as we worked withourselves and as we worked with
staff, and all of it is thatpeople wait a minute, wait a
minute, I'm kidding.
Tammy (03:54):
Yeah, no, kermit, it's true, it was staff as well.
I mean, we were like it's allof us right.
Scott (04:01):
There are, there are moments in time where we all
fall into this.
What we were noticing is lotsof information coming at people
(04:27):
some of it good information,some of it not good the lizard
part of their brain, which isthe habit, or these biases,
versus working in the logic sideof their brain, and what we
realized as we started to lookwas this is more and more common
than we think.
We chuckled about it and said,well, like we probably should
write a book because that mightbe kind of interesting.
And so that's how these biases,right, these personas, were
(04:48):
created.
And it really is.
The shameless plug for the bookis really it is a book that
describes these personas and thebiases, as well as provides
tactics to how can you get overthat, how can you get out of the
lizard part of your brain thereality that, even though you
(05:08):
might not think you do this, youdo.
We all do.
Tammy (05:12):
We probably have already done it this morning in this
podcast.
Yes, and so we're not beatingpeople up to say you know,
you're a shallow thinker, you'restupid.
We're actually saying, hey,take a look at this and
recognize that this is probablyyou, and when you see it, asking
yourself this question, do Ineed to think deeply about this,
(05:35):
or is it okay for me to rightnow, just kind of skim the top
of it and in the end we're goingto need both.
Right, there are times whendeep thinking is critical and
then there are times when,honestly, we can get by with
just a little bit of a skim.
It's really making thatdistinction, right, yeah?
Scott (05:57):
So to your question, who I think my favorite persona is?
Soundbite Steve.
Tammy (06:03):
Oh, tell us about Soundbite, steve.
Scott (06:05):
Oh, tell us about soundbite Steve.
Okay, so soundbite Steve is theperson who hears nuggets of
information.
Maybe it's the first thing theyhear, maybe it's just this one
little piece of information andthey accept that as the truth.
They accept that as oh yeah,that must be right.
They cast judgment, they makedecisions, they take action
(06:27):
based on what may or may not beaccurate information.
Now, part of that stands outfor me because I had an old boss
who was that and could bepretty harsh, arrogant, kind of
an asshole sometimes and reallywas using information without
(06:53):
fully understanding and wouldalready make a decision and run.
Tammy (06:59):
Do you know, scott, consultants get blamed for that
too.
They go in, they haveconversations with staff right
In that spot.
They will oftentimes hear thisone bit of information and they
take that and then they see theworld through that moving
forward right.
(07:20):
It's like having the formalname confirmation bias in that
particular case, whereeverything then falls into kind
of that perspective and it'sjust this.
They don't understand fullcontext.
They have one piece ofinformation and they move
forward with that informationand that really is.
That really is soundbite, steve, and I've seen that over and
(07:44):
over and over and over in mylife and it's something we fight
when we go into organizationsto make sure that we are not
right.
Soundbite Steves.
Scott (07:53):
Yeah.
And again, we can chuckle aboutthese personas and people will
read them and hear about themand they'll be like, oh yeah,
that's so-and-so.
Or that's oh, that'ssuch-and-such.
Well, that's my old boss, I'vefallen into that.
There are times where, like Ican think with the kids when
they were little they'd dosomething or I'd hear something
(08:14):
and I'd be frustrated and it'slike I don't fully understand,
right.
Or you hear the tail end of aconversation and you think you
know it all.
I mean, we've all done this.
Tammy (08:28):
Yeah, one of my favorite in the book is Get Along Gary,
and I will tell you the reasonwhy Get Along Gary is-.
Scott (08:37):
Distant cousin from Hopalong.
Tammy (08:39):
Yes, distant cousin from Avalon.
But I remember being 27 and myboss would say something and I'd
say yep, I know that It'd belike he was trying to help me
grow and see something or giveme some information, whatever
(09:00):
that was, and I had a tendencyjust to nod my head and be like
yep, I got it, yep, I got it.
Yep, I got it.
Yep, I know that.
And the fact of the matter is Inever gave him the chance to
fully explain.
I never asked more questions.
I wanted to look smart, capableand competent and so I was
(09:22):
trying very hard simply to belike yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,
yep.
And unfortunately I didn'tunderstand at 27 that by saying
yep and like being ready to goactually made me look dumb and I
didn't ask questions.
I didn't, and I didn't askquestions, I didn't delve into
(09:47):
what success looked like.
I didn't.
I just was like I'm going to goand take action.
And that spot, getting along inthat place actually hurt me.
And he kept trying to tell methis.
I mean, I recognized this 10years later or so that he was
actually trying very hard for meto not be a get along, gary,
(10:07):
and I was not making it easy onhim at all.
Right?
So that concept of just youknow, give me the basic
information and then let me goprove myself.
That is a typical get along Garykind of thing that we see in
workplaces all the time.
I absolutely had it at 27.
I don't have it at 64.
(10:29):
Because I learned that lesson.
I learned that I needed to askquestions.
I learned that I needed toensure that I understood what my
boss said.
There were certain words but Imight interpret those in a
different way and if I didn't,when I went and took action
there was a really good chance Iwas not gonna bring something
(10:51):
to the table that actually metmy boss's expectations.
So that's Get Along Gary I lovein the book because Get Along
Gary was Tammy at 27.
Scott (11:02):
Yeah.
Tammy (11:03):
Absolutely.
Scott (11:04):
What I've had folks yep, I know, yep, I know, yep, I know
.
One of my favorite questions toask, which is a little bit
tongue in cheek, is you say youknow and your performance is not
quite to par.
So what that means is youeither don't know or you're
(11:25):
being defiant and or incompetent.
Which one is it?
And let's have a conversationabout like, like, I know, you
think you know it's okay to notknow.
Tammy (11:40):
I think that's the piece Scott is.
Get along, gary's really notknowing, not having the answer
right, then not fully having youknow, comprehension of the
bigger picture, all of thosekinds of things.
That seems really abhorrent toa get along Gary.
Get along, gary wants to please.
We think we're supposed to knoweverything.
(12:04):
That's an interesting thingwith staff Like you're supposed
to know.
I mean, we've talked about thisin the past Even executives
sometimes don't know.
We are actually making our bestwild ass guess and we're going
to see what happens and thenwe're going to learn from it.
(12:28):
But there is this perceptionthat we're supposed to be all
knowing and that in and ofitself is a false, a false
standard to set that you aresupposed to know all things.
And one of the great gifts,again, of being a consultant is
when we go into organizationsand into vertical markets that
(12:49):
we know nothing about, we get toask all sorts of like naive
questions and we learn all sortsof things because we're not in
that company, we're not in thatindustry and it allows us to
stay stupid longer.
And the longer that we can staystupid, the more we learn, the
(13:11):
more we grow, the more that wecan actually long term add value
and so that thing we thinkwe're supposed to be smart,
which is another character inthis book, all knowing, alberto,
do you, scott?
Do you know?
Does that persona hit you atall?
Scott (13:28):
Oh yeah, but I can't say why.
Tammy (13:36):
Oh, you can't say why, alberto, all-knowing Alberto.
Scott (13:47):
Yeah, I can't that one hits a little too close
self-awareness.
Karman (13:52):
Scott is, I think, one of the lessons that become more
group sort of like talks about alot oh so you're saying that
I'm all-knowing, alberto, if theshoe fits, I mean and again,
(14:17):
there is a difference betweenhaving that cognitive bias and
having it be true, or is thatthe cognitive bias showing
itself Now?
Scott (14:23):
I'm confused.
Tammy (14:24):
It's like he's picking.
We need to pick up our feet.
It's getting a little deep inhere in this moment in that
space, but that's a spot, too,that we see in leadership a lot
All-knowing Albertos.
We have leaders who also thinkthat they have to know all
(14:44):
things that they have to like bein this spot where they can
never show any vulnerability.
They cannot show this placewhere they don't know, and it is
an ugly side of leadershipwhere people have to pretend as
if they know all things.
It's extremely ugly, it's very,very arrogant, and that is a
(15:06):
disease that we see sometimes insupervisors, sometimes in
middle managers, sometimes inexecutive managers.
Scott (15:14):
And it's even like this may not fall at.
I'm on the fence of whetherthis falls in there.
I think there is the bias whereyou think you know.
There's also this you do know.
However, you don't allow othersto grow, and we see both ends
(15:39):
of that.
I was at a client last week.
Everything was running throughthe leader, everything.
I got this test result.
I'm going to go turn this valve, I'm going to go do this
no-transcript, and I asked Iasked the person I was with.
I'm like so is that normal?
Yep, is that normal at all thelocations?
Yep, is that what you want?
(16:00):
And they couldn't answer thatquestion.
They're like I'm not sure,because they're working through
some leadership developmentstuff this year.
Is that being addressed and doyou want to address that?
Because maybe that is what youwant, maybe you want that, that
oof, which is probably a wholedifferent podcast.
Tammy (16:19):
It is a whole different podcast and I think that people
don't understand when you are inthat all-knowing Alberto space,
not make space for others whoactually could turn their brains
on add value, do things welland independently of you.
(16:44):
If you know all things and youtreat others as if they don't
know all things right, or theycan't learn all things, or
they're not capable of learning,growing, expanding, you have
now just limited that particularresource.
That's the piece that I thinkpeople don't understand about
(17:05):
being all knowing Albertos.
It's like, yes, you look smart,but then you become the go-to
for everything instead ofactually helping someone know
that they can think these thingsthrough and come to really good
conclusions.
Right, yeah, there's a learningcurve, I get it.
(17:27):
Okay, but if you're, if you areall knowing and all powerful
and you don't take peoplethrough that learning curve, you
will soon have people who stopthinking and just wait for
direction, and that will limitthe organization, and that's not
a leader's job.
A leader's job is not to limitthe organization.
(17:48):
It's to expand the resources,to be a good steward of the
resources that you've been givenand that includes people's
brains of the resources thatyou've been given, and that
includes people's brains, and sothat's the other part of this,
when we think about thesecognitive biases.
As a leader, are you helpingpeople overcome their own
(18:12):
cognitive biases so that we aredeveloping their brains and
those brains can be added to thetreasure trust of this
organization, because that isactually an amazing, it's wealth
.
It is all of this stuff that wecould put into the organization
, we could grow the organizationwith, but if we're like, sorry,
your brain is capped, you'renot capable, we're not doing our
(18:34):
jobs as leaders, and I thinkthat's a big part of this book
as well.
Scott (18:39):
Yeah, and as you were talking about this, I don't know
that we've ever talked about itin this way.
If I'm a leader and I fall preyinto one of the biases, I
actually induce other biasesinto the staff.
Tammy (18:58):
That's correct.
Scott (19:09):
We end up diminishing their brainpower instead of
expanding their brainpower, andmaybe we're not inducing it.
We're inducing it in thatsituation.
They may then apply theirbrainpower in other places.
Tammy (19:18):
Think about this, scott, for just a minute.
How many organizations have wecome into?
And there is a culture whereit's like people just wait to be
told what to do.
They are doers, right.
And if management tells themwhat to do, they will run and
they will go do and they'regreat, okay.
(19:39):
But they have, over time,developed a habit that says it's
not my job to think, it's myjob to respond to leadership.
And when we see that culture,that's a culture that we would
say somewhere in their historyand it could have been at
(19:59):
another company that they'vecome in, or it could be in this
company it was years and yearsago.
But there's a spot where weknow that other people did the
thinking and the staff isactually just executors.
They go and execute.
Whatever that thinking is and tome that's one of the saddest
cultures to walk into is a placewhere it's like don't ask me to
(20:20):
think, that's not my job, okay,because we're diminishing that
human being.
And and I think that happensall of the time and again, some
of us did it to ourselves.
You know, things came in andhappened to us and then we just
decided that's how we were goingto act.
And when we make that our habit, we start to not think highly
(20:42):
of ourselves.
That's the saddest thing of all.
People are not reaching theirpotential.
Scott (20:46):
Carmen, who's your favorite?
Karman (20:47):
I think running Rodney, you know, it goes back a little
bit to Tammy's like oh, I haveto prove that I'm competent and
I'm a, you know, a super doer,and so that idea of like, ok,
you tell Rodney, carmen, rodney,you know, and they're like got
(21:08):
it, I'm off, I'm going to it's.
Tammy (21:11):
Consider it done without asking for context or deadlines
or expectations or details orwhatever.
I think people pleasers Right.
So running Rodneys aretraditionally folks who they
(21:34):
really do want to please others,they really do want to be seen
as competent, they really dowant to get that thing done and
check it off and move on to thenext thing.
And it's not because they don'tcare, it's actually because of
what they care about right inthat spot.
Karman (21:56):
If you had all this time to tell me all the details,
you'd just do it yourself.
I'm saving you time.
Tammy (22:04):
Yeah, yep, and they're making all sorts of assumptions
along that particular way, right, and it's one of those things.
And we've had running Ronniesin our organization Scott and I
both have and they are so like,you know, bright eyed and bushy
(22:25):
tailed, and you, you hate toslow them down because of course
, they feel like that'smicromanagement and this piece
of it is like it's notmicromanagement.
We want you to think before yourun, okay, that's all right and
it's like, but no, I, I, I gotit, I just need to, I'm going to
(22:45):
run.
It's like, hold on, just take abeat, just take a minute.
Right, that, that's hardbecause they're so eager.
I love Rodney's and I hate whenI am one, and I am frequently.
Karman (22:59):
If they take a beat, then they're, you know, slow
decision makers.
Tammy (23:05):
Because of course, that would be just a terrible slow
down to think it would just bean absolutely horrible
organizational value.
And yet we do know thatsometimes we actually now when
there's a fire, someone's dying,right, we need to run.
There are many times that wethink it's a fire and all it is
(23:28):
is a tiny little flame and if wetake a beat we can actually
have a better solution.
And therefore, running Rodney's, you know, don't have to run
towards everything.
There are times when they canjust slow down, think about it
for a minute and then takeaction.
Yeah, I love the characters,scott.
(23:49):
I mean, we had so much funputting them together and kind
of matching kind of a persona tothese cognitive biases and it's
playful and it's fun and it'sso much easier to like, read and
understand neuroscience thanhaving to go in and, you know,
reading a manual on all of this,because we can remember, you
(24:11):
know, the Terry, the trendfollowers and running Rodney's
and soundbite Steves.
Those are easy for us to holdon to and remember, and so we've
really been playful with thatand it'll be fun.
The books it's in editing, it'sin graphics and it should be
out soon.
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