June 4, 2025 • 20 mins
Scott and Tammy return from hiatus with exciting news—they've published a book called "Think" that addresses a pervasive modern problem: our collective habit of shallow thinking. Rather than suggesting people don't think at all, they observe that many of us operate with thinking "as deep as a parking lot puddle," functioning on autopilot and habitually hitting the easy button when faced with challenges.
The conversation explores several revealing examples of this phenomenon. Tammy shares a three-year gardening saga where repeatedly purchasing "low-light" bushes ended in failure until someone finally asked about nearby pine trees, revealing that soil pH—not just light conditions—was crucial to plant survival. This perfectly illustrates how having knowledge without context leads to poor outcomes. Similarly, Scott reflects on workplace scenarios where employees rush to complete tasks without ensuring they truly understand requirements, creating inefficiencies and frustration.
Technology has accelerated this tendency toward superficial thinking. With Google, Siri, and now AI tools like ChatGPT readily available, we've grown accustomed to outsourcing our thinking. While these tools provide valuable information, they offer no competitive advantage when everyone has access to the same answers. The true edge comes from what you do with that information—how you apply it within specific contexts, how you question assumptions, and how you validate understanding before taking action.
The book's central message is transformative: successful organizations need "an army of thinkers," not just executives making decisions while others execute without question. When people at all levels engage in thoughtful problem-solving, considering both short and long-term implications, the organization's collective intelligence expands exponentially. Beyond organizational success, deeper thinking also fulfills our human desire to contribute meaningfully and make a difference. Ready to move beyond autopilot? Scott and Tammy's insights offer a practical roadmap for individuals and organizations ready to tap into their full thinking potential.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning
.
Good morning, Karman.
We've missed you.
What's going on?
Scott (00:07):
Karman.
Karman (00:08):
I've missed you.
I mean, I haven't missedsleeping, which I get to do if
we're not podcast recording atsome ungodly morning hour, but
I've missed our conversations.
Tammy (00:23):
I actually have too, so it's good to be back.
Karman (00:26):
Well, one of the things that's happened while we were on
our little hiatus here is youguys published a book.
Tammy (00:34):
We did.
It's it is true, we did.
Yeah, it was exciting.
Karman (00:42):
So it's called Think, and I wanted to talk a little
bit this morning about thepremise, which is that people
have kind of stopped thinking.
Tammy (00:57):
When you say that, I wonder how our listeners took
that, because, honest togoodness, every time I say that
out loud, I watch people's facesand they're like, yeah, that's
right.
Karman (01:09):
So maybe let's let's start today with what are some
signs that maybe your team atwork has has stopped thinking,
has started pushing the easybutton.
Yeah, love that.
Scott (01:25):
Well, the number one sign is are they breathing?
Karman (01:32):
If they're breathing.
Scott (01:33):
They're probably not thinking.
Karman (01:35):
That is not necessarily true.
Same time.
Tammy (01:41):
Oh, that dark humor of yours.
Scott (01:44):
Well, I guess, even if they're not breathing, you would
say they're probably notthinking.
So, really, just that theyexist, they're probably not
thinking.
Tammy (01:51):
Yeah, period.
Scott (01:53):
Which is really unfair.
Karman (01:56):
Way to create a huge market for your book, Scott.
Scott (02:00):
The entire world, not a single person is thinking If
dead people can vote, they canbuy our book.
Tammy (02:07):
Oh, for heaven's sakes, Mr.
Burgmeyer.
Oh, geez, whoa.
Okay, I mean right.
Scott (02:15):
The whole thing about the right.
That's the whole joke about howa couple Illinois politicians
got elected.
Tammy (02:22):
Right that was actually when I was a kid.
You know Mayor Daley and thistells you how old I am, because
it was the old Mayor Daley, notthe son of the Mayor Daley that
that was actually what he wasaccused of is having people that
were dead actually voting forhim.
So yes, that's.
Scott (02:39):
Then I could get really political and say, well, and if
they're collecting SocialSecurity, they absolutely not
only can they buy a book.
Tammy (02:50):
They can afford to buy a book because they're getting a
check.
Scott (02:53):
Scott you are going to cause all sorts of grief on this
one.
Tammy (02:55):
This is why we should do it on a weekly basis, because
all Scott does is blow it up inthe beginning because he has
he's had all these things he'swanted to say beginning because
he has, he's had all thesethings.
Scott (03:04):
He's wanted to say, yeah, all of these experiences, yeah.
So now that I've created, nowthat I've created a a fraction,
you know, in our listeningpopulation that's like well
that's not true.
Oh, that's true right now.
Now let's talk about the realtopic.
Tammy (03:15):
Okay, that's go Scott.
So how do you know people arenot thinking yeah.
Scott (03:21):
If I back up just a little bit, what's interesting
is when I've talked about thebook, sometimes I talk about it
as not thinking.
Sometimes I talk about it howwe kind of wrote about it.
That thinking is about as deepas a parking lot puddle, that
(03:45):
people are on autopilot, andit's not that they're not
thinking, it's they've reallyjust built a habit of doing
things in a certain way and theybecome on autopilot, which is
really the place where you're inthe lizard part of your brain.
You're just reacting towhatever it is, and it's the
opportunity to say where do weneed to start to pivot and think
a little deeper?
(04:06):
I think, Tammy and I wouldagree that it's not about you
have to think deeply abouteverything.
It's really about where do Ineed to think deeply and am I
thinking it through and am Iputting the right level of
context around it to say how dowe get better outcomes or how do
we have better relationships oranything in between?
Tammy (04:28):
I think that's really the big message in this.
It's you know, let's not insultthe entire population and say
that you don't think okay,Because we do, and it's a good
attention grabber.
Yeah, exactly.
With that said, though, we knowthat there are and it's kind of
some reasons why and we coulduse the word excuses in this
(04:52):
spot.
Okay, However, you know, Carmen, you use the word easy button.
It's like we need to fill inthe blank and as soon as we
whatever that thing is, you knowthe easy button is the first
thing that comes to mind.
The easy button is that thingthat we have done five, six,
(05:16):
seven times before and it's beensuccessful.
Okay, and while there is apurpose and a reason for us to
have habits and to do things theway that we have always done
them before, it is definitelynot going to be the thing that's
going to help us as anindividual, as a team, as a
(05:37):
company, succeed if we alwayshit the easy button and we now
have, you know, we've hadtechnology in our hand that has
been the easy button for morethan a generation.
It's this thing where you goall right, I'm just going to go
(06:00):
ask google and um, google forFirst Google, then Siri, right?
Scott (06:06):
And now chat GPT.
Tammy (06:08):
And now, and what's hysterical I don't know how many
conferences we've been at thisyear, scott Something like 16
already this year and everysingle conference that we're at,
they're talking about AI.
It's another way that we don'tneed to do the thinking
ourselves.
We can let a system do thethinking for us.
(06:30):
But I want you to think aboutthat from a competitive
perspective.
If you and I ask the samequestion to AI, we're going to
get the same answer, and if wethen take action on that answer
and not adding anything to it,not going any deeper than that,
not pushing out further thanthat there's no competitive
(06:52):
advantage in that.
It is simply I'm lettingsomeone else give me knowledge
or information.
Part of you know that's what wereally mean by not thinking,
going and getting knowledge.
Getting a piece of data is onething.
What are you doing with thatand how are you utilizing that?
(07:14):
And are you simply just sayingthat's the answer, or are you
taking that and doing somethingwith all of that?
Is it?
I need a piece of knowledge?
Knowledge is not thinking, it'sinformation.
I need a piece of knowledge.
Knowledge is not thinking, it'sinformation.
Scott (07:29):
Okay, and it's almost yeah and Tammy, I love this part
about what am I going to?
Do with it and I have to wrapit.
I have to wrap context aroundthis, Because that nugget of
information without context orwithout application, frankly is
pointless.
Tammy (07:49):
And I'm going to do something.
It's like, really, reallysimple.
Okay, A couple of years ago wewanted to do some landscaping in
the backyard, and my backyardis basically completely in shade
, and we needed some bushes.
And we needed some bushes.
And so we went and said, hey,you know what is a bush that can
(08:09):
handle, you know, low to nolight?
And sure enough, you know,there was the answer.
So we went and bought thosebushes, put them in and, you
know, they died.
And so the next year, yeah, gotto replace those bushes,
because we need a little bit ofa hedge there, a little break
between us and the church that'sbehind us.
And so we went and, you know,did the same thing, looked it up
(08:32):
and said, okay, these are thebushes.
Oh, those are pretty, let's goahead and get those and bought
them.
And guess what?
Year two, another set of bushesdied.
And so year three which, by theway, was the spring went back
to the nursery and said you know, we have tried two different
kinds.
This is what they were andthey're not working.
And they said tell us about thearea that you're trying to put
(08:55):
these bushes in.
It said oh, it's low to nolight.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
Lady asked a bunch of questions.
One of the questions she askedis said do you have any pine
trees or spruce trees?
And I'm like yeah, and she'slike, oh, the pH in your ground
is fill in the blank and youneed a certain kind of bush
(09:16):
that's going to like that kindof pH.
So, therefore, you need ahydrangea?
And I'm like a hydrangea, andshe's like yeah, they thrive
when they are paired with spruceor pine trees.
Hello, context, yes, I had onepiece of knowledge this bush can
handle low light, but I didn'tthink about the pH balance of my
(09:38):
ground.
Scott (09:39):
Okay, I'm not saying that .
And think about it.
You had the context.
You had one requirement RightLow light.
But that's not all of thecontext.
What's the ground type?
What's the pH in the ground?
What's all of that will add toright?
So it's almost like oh, lowlight, was the parking lot
(10:02):
puddle.
Tammy (10:03):
Yes, it was.
It was one piece of information.
Scott (10:06):
And you look at this and it's like was anyone doing
anything wrong?
Tammy (10:10):
No.
Scott (10:11):
Well, I might suggest that where you bought them
ideally would have done a littlemore discovery and asked some
of these other questions.
Tammy (10:19):
Well see, I love that, Scott, because there's like who
is responsible for that, right?
Yeah, so should I have beenasking a lot more questions?
Should I have been asking a lotmore questions?
Should they have been asking alot more questions, or were we
both hitting the easy buttons?
She said low light, here's lowlight.
Right, I sold a bush Right Now.
(10:40):
What's really interesting is,this particular nursery has a
guarantee If it doesn't last, ifit dies over the winter.
So actually they should beteaching their folks to be
asking a whole lot of questionsbecause I only paid for one set
of bushes and they've given methree.
Scott (11:01):
Well, and to me it's.
I think of it as they were onautopilot.
They were in task mode.
You came, you said this I'maccepting that answer.
I'm then going to answer onlythis, that question, and check
the box.
I'm done.
(11:21):
I mean I, someone who was mowingthe lawn, um hit a outdoor
water spigot with the mower andbusted the underground pipe.
I don't know who that was.
And so, of course, water.
You know water is goingeverywhere and, uh, you know I
get the water turned off, andwhoever had piped it in their
infinite wisdom didn't quite doit right.
And I go and I, you know wateris going everywhere and you know
I get the water turned off, andwhoever had piped it in their
(11:44):
infinite wisdom didn't quite doit right.
And I go and I have a part, andthey're like well, we don't
sell that part.
Well, someone has to sell thispart, like it has to exist.
And I find out that whoever didit actually piped it with
electrical piping instead ofwater piping, which is why I
(12:05):
couldn't find the part.
Because I'm looking in and theguy takes me and he's like well,
here, this would replace it.
I said I don't think it will.
He says, oh no, no, it's this,it's this, it's this, it's easy.
He says to me and I said likeat that point I was a little
irritated and so I handed it to,because I had brought, I had
dug up, and I brought the broken, irritated, and so I handed it
to.
I had cause, I had brought, Ihad dug up, and I brought the
broken part and I said, if it isso easy, will you demonstrate
(12:26):
how these two parts would gotogether?
And I handed it to him becauseI could tell it wouldn't.
And he's like fumbling with it,fumbling is like well, that
doesn't fit.
And in my mind I'm like no shit, I told you that five minutes
ago.
You dumbass.
Tammy (12:41):
No shit, sherlock, you were hitting the easy button.
I'm going to sell a part andget him out of here.
Scott (12:46):
He's like oh yeah, you have, you need this, here's the
part you need, and off he goesand I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa,
you know, and it's like I reallythink it's this piece of
connecting.
I need to ask some questions, Ineed to get some data and
information.
I need to ask them questions, Ineed to get some data and
information, I need to putcontext around that and then I
need to validate it.
Does that fit, does that work,does it make sense?
(13:07):
And so many times we're just inthis autopilot task.
Check.
Sold part Check.
Submitted the report Check.
Tammy (13:18):
Well and think about this .
We see this with staff.
Right, I need fill in the blank.
They think that what I justsaid makes sense in their brain
and they go okay, got it.
And then they start running andthey go and they, they create
that thing that I said, thatthey interpreted in a certain
way and they bring it to me andit's not what I wanted.
(13:39):
Okay, now, part of it is Ididn't clarify what it was that
I needed but part of it was thisneed to take action or thinking
that you get it without takinga minute to verify and to ask
questions and to make sure thatwe're on the same page.
And those are the things thatwe see in organizations over and
(14:03):
over and over and over again.
It's the propensity to want totake action, the idea that I
want to look competent and sothat I don't ask those questions
, and so I start running downthe road and don't recognize
that I have not made theconnective tissue work, I
(14:25):
haven't put it inside of context, I haven't ensured
understanding, I haven't donesomething that a little bit of
thinking to go beyond my firstknee jerk reaction to that, I
think, to kind of go back tosomething we said in the
beginning, that's also a habit.
It was a habit.
I will tell you that when Iworked for Paul and Frank the
(14:49):
best bosses I ever had in mylife I remember saying yep, yep,
yep, yep, I got it.
And Paul would look at me andhe'd go you don't got it, you're
just saying yes because youthink you've got it.
(15:10):
And when I was 27, I was likewhy are you hassling me?
I'm telling you yes.
Right, it wasn't until muchlater that I understood what he
was saying to me.
Right, I was trying to lookcompetent and by agreeing so
quickly, I was actually notbeing competent.
If I had asked questions toensure my understanding,
(15:31):
competence would have come, andI never did that.
Asking questions, I thought Iwas supposed to understand and
be smart.
Asking questions is what dumbpeople do, when it's actually
just the opposite.
Scott (15:44):
So if we think about, then that is the a little about
why.
You know what we were observingand what triggered us to kind
of write this.
So what?
What does the book do forsomeone?
So this is that was the why andthat's the observation.
Tammy (16:04):
Well, do we want to answer that, or do we want the
listeners to read the book andcome back and say this is what
it did for me?
Scott (16:09):
I mean, I think they should.
I'm thinking like what's in thebook, not like specific details
.
Of course we want people to buythe book.
We didn't write it to write it.
So, true, people write books tomake money.
Right Not to share information?
That's crazy talk.
Tammy (16:27):
Oh for heaven's sakes make money.
I don't think you make moneywhen you write a book, but you
know a book.
But I think honestly, the pieceabout that is really that
organizations need to thinkabout if they want to be
successful.
They need an army of thinkers,not just the CEO, not just the
(16:48):
head of operations.
We need a whole bunch of peoplewho have their thinking caps on
so that when things happen,they can solve problems in the
moment and solve them in a waythat is good and successful for
short and long term.
And we oftentimes stop and say,hey, I don't have the answer.
(17:13):
Let me go to a higher power andthey'll give me the answer, and
then I'll take direction andI'll move forward.
And I think there are someorganizations that, like that,
don't think, do.
Unfortunately, that is not whatis going to make any
organization successful, becausethen you have the capacity.
(17:34):
You have to rely just on thecapacity of the leader, or
leaders who have permission tomake decisions, who have the
permission to think thingsthrough.
So the book really is aboutthis thing that says,
organizationally, how can I helpand encourage people to think
more deeply?
All right, and it reallyprovides kind of that background
(17:56):
of this is what you can do as acompany to promote deeper
thinking so that you create thatarmy that, in the end, is your
competitive advantage.
And eventually not yeteventually there'll be the thing
for the individual to actuallyhelp yourself build your
individual thinking skills right, but for right now the book
(18:19):
really is what can you do as anorganization to help your people
expand and deepen theirthinking?
Scott (18:27):
And, I would add, I can also take the same tactics that
we describe in the book at anorganizational level, a team
level or an individual level,absolutely, and so it is really
describing the reasons thatcontribute to the lack of deep
(18:48):
thinking and the tactics for howto go about that.
Tammy (18:54):
Moving beyond it.
Right, Because it's not thatother people aren't thinking
deeply, it actually is us, eachof us, and we don't have to be
stuck with the easy button.
We can move past that very,very easily, because people are
(19:14):
brilliant If we help them bebrilliant, if we give them the
space to be brilliant, if we tapinto it.
And there is such a gift whenpeople start to use that stuff
between their ears.
It actually is part of thething that makes us go.
Yeah, I'm making a differenceis part of the thing that makes
(19:36):
us go.
Yeah, I'm making a difference.
And in the end, yes, I wantorganizations to win, but, Scott
Carmen, we want people to win.
We want people to add value tothis world and actually, that
thing between our ears, it's areally great place to start.
Good morning
.
Good morning, Karman.
We've missed you.
What's going on?
Scott (00:07):
Karman.
Karman (00:08):
I've missed you.
I mean, I haven't missedsleeping, which I get to do if
we're not podcast recording atsome ungodly morning hour, but
I've missed our conversations.
Tammy (00:23):
I actually have too, so it's good to be back.
Karman (00:26):
Well, one of the things that's happened while we were on
our little hiatus here is youguys published a book.
Tammy (00:34):
We did.
It's it is true, we did.
Yeah, it was exciting.
Karman (00:42):
So it's called Think, and I wanted to talk a little
bit this morning about thepremise, which is that people
have kind of stopped thinking.
Tammy (00:57):
When you say that, I wonder how our listeners took
that, because, honest togoodness, every time I say that
out loud, I watch people's facesand they're like, yeah, that's
right.
Karman (01:09):
So maybe let's let's start today with what are some
signs that maybe your team atwork has has stopped thinking,
has started pushing the easybutton.
Yeah, love that.
Scott (01:25):
Well, the number one sign is are they breathing?
Karman (01:32):
If they're breathing.
Scott (01:33):
They're probably not thinking.
Karman (01:35):
That is not necessarily true.
Same time.
Tammy (01:41):
Oh, that dark humor of yours.
Scott (01:44):
Well, I guess, even if they're not breathing, you would
say they're probably notthinking.
So, really, just that theyexist, they're probably not
thinking.
Tammy (01:51):
Yeah, period.
Scott (01:53):
Which is really unfair.
Karman (01:56):
Way to create a huge market for your book, Scott.
Scott (02:00):
The entire world, not a single person is thinking If
dead people can vote, they canbuy our book.
Tammy (02:07):
Oh, for heaven's sakes, Mr.
Burgmeyer.
Oh, geez, whoa.
Okay, I mean right.
Scott (02:15):
The whole thing about the right.
That's the whole joke about howa couple Illinois politicians
got elected.
Tammy (02:22):
Right that was actually when I was a kid.
You know Mayor Daley and thistells you how old I am, because
it was the old Mayor Daley, notthe son of the Mayor Daley that
that was actually what he wasaccused of is having people that
were dead actually voting forhim.
So yes, that's.
Scott (02:39):
Then I could get really political and say, well, and if
they're collecting SocialSecurity, they absolutely not
only can they buy a book.
Tammy (02:50):
They can afford to buy a book because they're getting a
check.
Scott (02:53):
Scott you are going to cause all sorts of grief on this
one.
Tammy (02:55):
This is why we should do it on a weekly basis, because
all Scott does is blow it up inthe beginning because he has
he's had all these things he'swanted to say beginning because
he has, he's had all thesethings.
Scott (03:04):
He's wanted to say, yeah, all of these experiences, yeah.
So now that I've created, nowthat I've created a a fraction,
you know, in our listeningpopulation that's like well
that's not true.
Oh, that's true right now.
Now let's talk about the realtopic.
Tammy (03:15):
Okay, that's go Scott.
So how do you know people arenot thinking yeah.
Scott (03:21):
If I back up just a little bit, what's interesting
is when I've talked about thebook, sometimes I talk about it
as not thinking.
Sometimes I talk about it howwe kind of wrote about it.
That thinking is about as deepas a parking lot puddle, that
(03:45):
people are on autopilot, andit's not that they're not
thinking, it's they've reallyjust built a habit of doing
things in a certain way and theybecome on autopilot, which is
really the place where you're inthe lizard part of your brain.
You're just reacting towhatever it is, and it's the
opportunity to say where do weneed to start to pivot and think
a little deeper?
(04:06):
I think, Tammy and I wouldagree that it's not about you
have to think deeply abouteverything.
It's really about where do Ineed to think deeply and am I
thinking it through and am Iputting the right level of
context around it to say how dowe get better outcomes or how do
we have better relationships oranything in between?
Tammy (04:28):
I think that's really the big message in this.
It's you know, let's not insultthe entire population and say
that you don't think okay,Because we do, and it's a good
attention grabber.
Yeah, exactly.
With that said, though, we knowthat there are and it's kind of
some reasons why and we coulduse the word excuses in this
(04:52):
spot.
Okay, However, you know, Carmen, you use the word easy button.
It's like we need to fill inthe blank and as soon as we
whatever that thing is, you knowthe easy button is the first
thing that comes to mind.
The easy button is that thingthat we have done five, six,
(05:16):
seven times before and it's beensuccessful.
Okay, and while there is apurpose and a reason for us to
have habits and to do things theway that we have always done
them before, it is definitelynot going to be the thing that's
going to help us as anindividual, as a team, as a
(05:37):
company, succeed if we alwayshit the easy button and we now
have, you know, we've hadtechnology in our hand that has
been the easy button for morethan a generation.
It's this thing where you goall right, I'm just going to go
(06:00):
ask google and um, google forFirst Google, then Siri, right?
Scott (06:06):
And now chat GPT.
Tammy (06:08):
And now, and what's hysterical I don't know how many
conferences we've been at thisyear, scott Something like 16
already this year and everysingle conference that we're at,
they're talking about AI.
It's another way that we don'tneed to do the thinking
ourselves.
We can let a system do thethinking for us.
(06:30):
But I want you to think aboutthat from a competitive
perspective.
If you and I ask the samequestion to AI, we're going to
get the same answer, and if wethen take action on that answer
and not adding anything to it,not going any deeper than that,
not pushing out further thanthat there's no competitive
(06:52):
advantage in that.
It is simply I'm lettingsomeone else give me knowledge
or information.
Part of you know that's what wereally mean by not thinking,
going and getting knowledge.
Getting a piece of data is onething.
What are you doing with thatand how are you utilizing that?
(07:14):
And are you simply just sayingthat's the answer, or are you
taking that and doing somethingwith all of that?
Is it?
I need a piece of knowledge?
Knowledge is not thinking, it'sinformation.
I need a piece of knowledge.
Knowledge is not thinking, it'sinformation.
Scott (07:29):
Okay, and it's almost yeah and Tammy, I love this part
about what am I going to?
Do with it and I have to wrapit.
I have to wrap context aroundthis, Because that nugget of
information without context orwithout application, frankly is
pointless.
Tammy (07:49):
And I'm going to do something.
It's like, really, reallysimple.
Okay, A couple of years ago wewanted to do some landscaping in
the backyard, and my backyardis basically completely in shade
, and we needed some bushes.
And we needed some bushes.
And so we went and said, hey,you know what is a bush that can
(08:09):
handle, you know, low to nolight?
And sure enough, you know,there was the answer.
So we went and bought thosebushes, put them in and, you
know, they died.
And so the next year, yeah, gotto replace those bushes,
because we need a little bit ofa hedge there, a little break
between us and the church that'sbehind us.
And so we went and, you know,did the same thing, looked it up
(08:32):
and said, okay, these are thebushes.
Oh, those are pretty, let's goahead and get those and bought
them.
And guess what?
Year two, another set of bushesdied.
And so year three which, by theway, was the spring went back
to the nursery and said you know, we have tried two different
kinds.
This is what they were andthey're not working.
And they said tell us about thearea that you're trying to put
(08:55):
these bushes in.
It said oh, it's low to nolight.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
Lady asked a bunch of questions.
One of the questions she askedis said do you have any pine
trees or spruce trees?
And I'm like yeah, and she'slike, oh, the pH in your ground
is fill in the blank and youneed a certain kind of bush
(09:16):
that's going to like that kindof pH.
So, therefore, you need ahydrangea?
And I'm like a hydrangea, andshe's like yeah, they thrive
when they are paired with spruceor pine trees.
Hello, context, yes, I had onepiece of knowledge this bush can
handle low light, but I didn'tthink about the pH balance of my
(09:38):
ground.
Scott (09:39):
Okay, I'm not saying that .
And think about it.
You had the context.
You had one requirement RightLow light.
But that's not all of thecontext.
What's the ground type?
What's the pH in the ground?
What's all of that will add toright?
So it's almost like oh, lowlight, was the parking lot
(10:02):
puddle.
Tammy (10:03):
Yes, it was.
It was one piece of information.
Scott (10:06):
And you look at this and it's like was anyone doing
anything wrong?
Tammy (10:10):
No.
Scott (10:11):
Well, I might suggest that where you bought them
ideally would have done a littlemore discovery and asked some
of these other questions.
Tammy (10:19):
Well see, I love that, Scott, because there's like who
is responsible for that, right?
Yeah, so should I have beenasking a lot more questions?
Should I have been asking a lotmore questions?
Should they have been asking alot more questions, or were we
both hitting the easy buttons?
She said low light, here's lowlight.
Right, I sold a bush Right Now.
(10:40):
What's really interesting is,this particular nursery has a
guarantee If it doesn't last, ifit dies over the winter.
So actually they should beteaching their folks to be
asking a whole lot of questionsbecause I only paid for one set
of bushes and they've given methree.
Scott (11:01):
Well, and to me it's.
I think of it as they were onautopilot.
They were in task mode.
You came, you said this I'maccepting that answer.
I'm then going to answer onlythis, that question, and check
the box.
I'm done.
(11:21):
I mean I, someone who was mowingthe lawn, um hit a outdoor
water spigot with the mower andbusted the underground pipe.
I don't know who that was.
And so, of course, water.
You know water is goingeverywhere and, uh, you know I
get the water turned off, andwhoever had piped it in their
infinite wisdom didn't quite doit right.
And I go and I, you know wateris going everywhere and you know
I get the water turned off, andwhoever had piped it in their
(11:44):
infinite wisdom didn't quite doit right.
And I go and I have a part, andthey're like well, we don't
sell that part.
Well, someone has to sell thispart, like it has to exist.
And I find out that whoever didit actually piped it with
electrical piping instead ofwater piping, which is why I
(12:05):
couldn't find the part.
Because I'm looking in and theguy takes me and he's like well,
here, this would replace it.
I said I don't think it will.
He says, oh no, no, it's this,it's this, it's this, it's easy.
He says to me and I said likeat that point I was a little
irritated and so I handed it to,because I had brought, I had
dug up, and I brought the broken, irritated, and so I handed it
to.
I had cause, I had brought, Ihad dug up, and I brought the
broken part and I said, if it isso easy, will you demonstrate
(12:26):
how these two parts would gotogether?
And I handed it to him becauseI could tell it wouldn't.
And he's like fumbling with it,fumbling is like well, that
doesn't fit.
And in my mind I'm like no shit, I told you that five minutes
ago.
You dumbass.
Tammy (12:41):
No shit, sherlock, you were hitting the easy button.
I'm going to sell a part andget him out of here.
Scott (12:46):
He's like oh yeah, you have, you need this, here's the
part you need, and off he goesand I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa,
you know, and it's like I reallythink it's this piece of
connecting.
I need to ask some questions, Ineed to get some data and
information.
I need to ask them questions, Ineed to get some data and
information, I need to putcontext around that and then I
need to validate it.
Does that fit, does that work,does it make sense?
(13:07):
And so many times we're just inthis autopilot task.
Check.
Sold part Check.
Submitted the report Check.
Tammy (13:18):
Well and think about this .
We see this with staff.
Right, I need fill in the blank.
They think that what I justsaid makes sense in their brain
and they go okay, got it.
And then they start running andthey go and they, they create
that thing that I said, thatthey interpreted in a certain
way and they bring it to me andit's not what I wanted.
(13:39):
Okay, now, part of it is Ididn't clarify what it was that
I needed but part of it was thisneed to take action or thinking
that you get it without takinga minute to verify and to ask
questions and to make sure thatwe're on the same page.
And those are the things thatwe see in organizations over and
(14:03):
over and over and over again.
It's the propensity to want totake action, the idea that I
want to look competent and sothat I don't ask those questions
, and so I start running downthe road and don't recognize
that I have not made theconnective tissue work, I
(14:25):
haven't put it inside of context, I haven't ensured
understanding, I haven't donesomething that a little bit of
thinking to go beyond my firstknee jerk reaction to that, I
think, to kind of go back tosomething we said in the
beginning, that's also a habit.
It was a habit.
I will tell you that when Iworked for Paul and Frank the
(14:49):
best bosses I ever had in mylife I remember saying yep, yep,
yep, yep, I got it.
And Paul would look at me andhe'd go you don't got it, you're
just saying yes because youthink you've got it.
(15:10):
And when I was 27, I was likewhy are you hassling me?
I'm telling you yes.
Right, it wasn't until muchlater that I understood what he
was saying to me.
Right, I was trying to lookcompetent and by agreeing so
quickly, I was actually notbeing competent.
If I had asked questions toensure my understanding,
(15:31):
competence would have come, andI never did that.
Asking questions, I thought Iwas supposed to understand and
be smart.
Asking questions is what dumbpeople do, when it's actually
just the opposite.
Scott (15:44):
So if we think about, then that is the a little about
why.
You know what we were observingand what triggered us to kind
of write this.
So what?
What does the book do forsomeone?
So this is that was the why andthat's the observation.
Tammy (16:04):
Well, do we want to answer that, or do we want the
listeners to read the book andcome back and say this is what
it did for me?
Scott (16:09):
I mean, I think they should.
I'm thinking like what's in thebook, not like specific details
.
Of course we want people to buythe book.
We didn't write it to write it.
So, true, people write books tomake money.
Right Not to share information?
That's crazy talk.
Tammy (16:27):
Oh for heaven's sakes make money.
I don't think you make moneywhen you write a book, but you
know a book.
But I think honestly, the pieceabout that is really that
organizations need to thinkabout if they want to be
successful.
They need an army of thinkers,not just the CEO, not just the
(16:48):
head of operations.
We need a whole bunch of peoplewho have their thinking caps on
so that when things happen,they can solve problems in the
moment and solve them in a waythat is good and successful for
short and long term.
And we oftentimes stop and say,hey, I don't have the answer.
(17:13):
Let me go to a higher power andthey'll give me the answer, and
then I'll take direction andI'll move forward.
And I think there are someorganizations that, like that,
don't think, do.
Unfortunately, that is not whatis going to make any
organization successful, becausethen you have the capacity.
(17:34):
You have to rely just on thecapacity of the leader, or
leaders who have permission tomake decisions, who have the
permission to think thingsthrough.
So the book really is aboutthis thing that says,
organizationally, how can I helpand encourage people to think
more deeply?
All right, and it reallyprovides kind of that background
(17:56):
of this is what you can do as acompany to promote deeper
thinking so that you create thatarmy that, in the end, is your
competitive advantage.
And eventually not yeteventually there'll be the thing
for the individual to actuallyhelp yourself build your
individual thinking skills right, but for right now the book
(18:19):
really is what can you do as anorganization to help your people
expand and deepen theirthinking?
Scott (18:27):
And, I would add, I can also take the same tactics that
we describe in the book at anorganizational level, a team
level or an individual level,absolutely, and so it is really
describing the reasons thatcontribute to the lack of deep
(18:48):
thinking and the tactics for howto go about that.
Tammy (18:54):
Moving beyond it.
Right, Because it's not thatother people aren't thinking
deeply, it actually is us, eachof us, and we don't have to be
stuck with the easy button.
We can move past that very,very easily, because people are
(19:14):
brilliant If we help them bebrilliant, if we give them the
space to be brilliant, if we tapinto it.
And there is such a gift whenpeople start to use that stuff
between their ears.
It actually is part of thething that makes us go.
Yeah, I'm making a differenceis part of the thing that makes
(19:36):
us go.
Yeah, I'm making a difference.
And in the end, yes, I wantorganizations to win, but, Scott
Carmen, we want people to win.
We want people to add value tothis world and actually, that
thing between our ears, it's areally great place to start.
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