June 18, 2025 • 26 mins
Leadership transitions demand fundamental shifts in how we create value. Moving from frontline supervisor to executive means evolving from performing tasks to developing others who can multiply your impact exponentially. Yet this critical transformation trips up countless leaders who remain stuck in comfortable patterns of doing rather than teaching.
During our conversations with executives across industries, we repeatedly encounter the same challenge: leaders clinging to the technical expertise that propelled them upward instead of embracing the new capabilities their position demands. One executive recently realized his struggling management team needed permission to think, not just follow orders. His revelation came after inheriting a family business where the previous leader's mantra had been "I didn't hire you to think, I hired you to do." This leadership approach created order-takers rather than problem-solvers, limiting organizational growth and exhausting the executive who became the bottleneck for every decision.
The solution involves both mindset and methodology changes. Rather than viewing delegation as abandoning responsibility, successful leaders implement calibrated transition processes. This means investing small amounts of time (often just 10-15 minutes) reviewing work, providing feedback, and gradually increasing autonomy as team members develop. The process moves people from C-level to A-level performance through deliberate practice, not massive time commitments. Organizations can accelerate this transformation by examining how their systems, approval processes, and hiring practices either foster dependency or cultivate independent thinking.
Are you struggling with this leadership evolution? Consider what activities you should start, stop, or continue as you move through your leadership pipeline. Assess whether organizational policies inadvertently create bottlenecks. Most importantly, recognize that your value increasingly comes not from what you personally produce, but from what you enable others to accomplish. This shift might feel uncomfortable, even "lazy" at first, but it's the key to multiplying your impact and creating sustainable organizational growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Tammy (00:03):
Morning Karman.
Scott (00:05):
Hi, Karmen, hold on, I got to get my there, I got to
get my light right.
Tammy (00:12):
They can't see you, scott , they don't care.
Karman (00:16):
He's really worried about his aesthetic this morning
.
Scott (00:18):
Yeah, I am.
Tammy (00:20):
As he works in someone else's office, he probably
doesn't even have a glamourlight in his own office.
Scott (00:28):
No.
Karman (00:30):
If you had a glamour light in your office, Scott,
would you use it on yourself oron your cat?
Scott (00:37):
The cat.
Tammy (00:38):
Tom.
Tom would be in the spotlightwith glamour light.
Scott (00:42):
Yeah, absolutely yes.
Karman (00:44):
He's a very handsome man .
Scott (00:47):
Well, and it's funny because I saw a I think it was
AI generated or someone doingsome kind of fun.
It was a cat doing stand-upcomedy and the joke was I don't
bring them presents because I'ma good hunter.
I bring them so they know thatif they stop feeding me, this is
(01:09):
what will happen.
Karman (01:13):
Such a cat thing to say.
I love cats.
Well, I'm thinking this morningabout you.
Guys have been traveling a lot.
I can't even always keep trackof where you are from one week
to the next.
I'm glad it's not my job toknow.
Tammy (01:32):
Yeah, we don't say where in the world is Karman, we say
where in the world is Scott.
Karman (01:38):
Yes, and I know that when you guys are out with
clients, but also again atconferences, and you're talking
to a lot of people like that's,that's why you're out there
Right, connecting withorganizations that are in
various stages of whateverthey're trying to accomplish
(02:01):
outcomes, change, growth,accomplish outcomes, change, uh,
growth.
That they're seeking somethingis often why you guys are in the
same spot and I think that youmeet a lot of really interesting
characters and stories in thatprocess.
So my question today is liketell us about some of the
(02:24):
biggest like aha or like Ooh,that's a tough one People that
you've encountered lately.
Tammy (02:34):
I love this one.
We have people.
Stories, I mean people we meetare so interesting, Karman, I
mean so interesting.
Okay, scott, you get to gofirst.
I talk too much.
It's your turn.
Scott (02:50):
Yeah, interesting is an interesting word, because not
now, Karman, as you were talkingwhere my head was at and you
probably see in the chat I wasputting gossamer.
And for those who don't knowgossamer, you need to just look
up Bugs, bunny and Gossamer.
But that image of the red,fluffy monster, right, monsters
must lead interesting lives.
(03:10):
And Bugs is doing his nails andthen he says you know, I'll
look there out there in theaudience, people, people, right,
it is fascinating.
As you talk with folks and youwatch, you know what they say,
their challenges are and thenwhat they are willing to do
(03:41):
about it is always justflabbergasts me sometimes.
I was with an organization thisweek and their executive team
is new.
They've done an organizationaldesign, so they've elevated some
executives and they're talkingabout how do they come together
as an executive team and what isthe work of an executive team.
And actually I'm thinkingthere's like three or four
(04:03):
clients that we've had thisconversation with in the last
few weeks.
Tammy (04:06):
This is really normal.
It's like so what should anexecutive be doing Right?
And there's that's not clearand that's interesting to
recognize that as people go upto the ranks, they don't
recognize that the work changesRight.
Scott (04:23):
And it's well.
No, I was doing.
I was doing this work or I wasdoing this task.
And the advice I gave a CEOthis week was you know, this
person has some longevity withthe organization.
Really, I mean heart's in theright place, really working hard
, and I suggest that maybe theconversation with this person
(04:47):
needs to be that you know I loveyour passion, I love you, know
your commitment.
You can multiply exponentiallyyour impact if you change your
work from you doing to youteaching others how to do.
I think it's an element of yousay you want the change.
(05:11):
Are you willing to do thechange?
Tammy (05:14):
Do you know, scott, years and years and years and years
ago I heard a consultant theyhad this whole thing called the
lazy leader and I was soreactive I was like you cannot
be lazy and be successful.
Those two things like that'snot okay.
(05:36):
That word lazy I am superreactive to.
To me it's like slacker, it'slike you're not a good human
being, because I actually likethat thing that says you know,
when I am like doing stuff, thatactually is the way that I
bring value to the world, theworld.
And it took me years and Ireally do mean this to kind of
(06:01):
go oh, I get it now.
Okay, if I am doing all the work, I am adding value by being the
doer, yes, and there comes atime period that if I'm the only
one that can do the work, theorganization's capacity is like
(06:24):
stuck with just me.
I have to have other people beable to do this work, do this
work effectively, efficientlyand actually even maybe do it
better than I am, so that if Ican have one person do that, or
two people do that, or threepeople do that, all of a sudden
the capacity of the organizationhas grown and I've added value
(06:45):
by having the capacity of theorganization grow because others
now can do those things.
It feels lazy because I'm notdoing it.
It's not lazy I've shifted thework and the output, the gift
that I'm giving, the value tothe organization.
I've shifted what it is andthat is something that every
(07:09):
time someone moves from evenlike a director level in an
organization up into thatexecutive piece, they struggle
with this and they oftentimeshold on.
But that happens even when I gofrom being a frontline to a
supervisor supervisor to manager, manager to director, director
to VP, vp to C-suite.
(07:30):
Every single time you have tolet go of the doing of that job
and find how do I add value inanother way that helps the
organization succeed?
That's a hard one, scott.
I love that one.
Scott (07:46):
Well, and what it really reminds me of is the book I read
years and years ago.
I think it was called theLeadership Pipeline, and the
concept is as you move from onelevel of leadership to the next
level of leadership, there arethings that you need to start
doing, there are things that youneed to stop doing, and how do
(08:08):
you get really purposeful andthoughtful about what those
things are?
Tammy (08:13):
I love that and that it's like sit down and like what's
like make a list, okay, I mean,it really is like what's all
this stuff that needs to be done?
And then look at that andsaying, okay, what stuff of that
should staff be doing?
That's what I used to do.
(08:34):
Who is going to be doing that?
Right, and then what stuff noone's doing, or the person that
I'm replacing used to do, what'sthat look like?
And then if people didn't havea good role model in either of
those places, it's sitting thereand saying what's the best use
of me, right, that theorganization needs, and like
(08:55):
what's that gap and filling thatparticular gap organization
needs, and like what's that gapand filling that particular gap,
and it's okay.
Scott (09:00):
I think, where where I see leaders get stuck sometimes
is, you know, maybe it's notsomething you've done
historically, or maybe theydon't have people that can do it
, and they either say, well,they don't know how, or they
won't do it right, or it'sfaster for me to just do it.
Here's the reality.
All of that is probably truethat is absolutely.
(09:23):
That is absolutely real, and andI think it gets overwhelming
for people because they're likeoh, the and it's.
And you know, what I usuallytell people is like I get it
today.
That's where you are a weekfrom, a week from now, a month
from now, a year from now.
Do you still want to be in thatspot?
(09:43):
And if the answer is no, thenit's what is your action plan?
And it can be all right, I'mgoing to work with Karman so
Karman can do this one thing.
We have three amazing interns.
Yes, we do, and it's like allright, I was editing the podcast
(10:04):
.
First thing I had, like ourintern, michael, who now is
doing the podcast editing.
He's done editing before.
What did I have him do?
He edited one, I listened to it, I gave him feedback, I maybe
did some tweaking.
The next one right, I had himlisten to.
(10:26):
What was it before, what was itafter.
Here's the exact things that Ichanged and we spent some time
calibrate what I call it'scalibration period.
How are you learning and howare you kind of dialing it in?
Marcella, she is right, she'sexploding and expanding our
reach on social media platforms.
(10:47):
She is building social mediaposts and I'm looking at them
and we're talking about hey,that kind of quote really isn't
our voice.
And so there'll be acalibration period where, yep,
she's going to do the work I'mgoing to give her and eventually
she's just going to do it andI'll have no right, I'll do no
(11:09):
approval and no look.
Michael's already at that pointwith the podcast, took him two,
two times.
Now, social media is a littlemore complex because there's
voice and there's look andthere's branding.
So, yeah, probably isn't twoposts.
In that case, maybe it's alittle longer and it's not that.
Oh, that person is no, it'sjust like no, that's more
(11:31):
complicated, but it's.
Are you taking purposeful steps, even if they're baby steps,
purposeful?
Tammy (11:41):
steps, even if they're baby steps, just to start to
swing the pendulum.
So I think a big part of thisis sometimes as leaders in this
space, we think, well, I shouldjust be able to tell them and
then I should be able to let go.
Scott (11:51):
Well, you know, tammy, before you continue, you said an
oxymoron.
Sometimes, as leaders, you saidan oxymoron.
Sometimes, as leaders, we thinkthat.
No, that it is not thinking.
That is a logic leap that theyare making Right and an
assumption.
Tammy (12:06):
It is not thinking.
Thank you very much.
And in that space, it is thisthing that says you know telling
right, which is like I think.
As a leader, I think my job isto tell.
And there is a place fortelling.
There is a place for I need youto do it this way, I need you
to do it this to get thisoutcome, okay.
(12:27):
But there's also a place forexplaining Okay, here's why,
right.
There's also a place for, hey,let's talk it through, let's
kind of make sure that what I'mthinking, what you're thinking,
is going together.
Let's kind of like roll aroundin it and kind of spend some
time so that together we arecoming to the same conclusion
(12:50):
for the same reason.
And then there is a place tolet go.
You can't just well, you can,but successfully.
It's very unusual to tell andlet go and have someone
successfully get to the outcomewith the quality and the
efficiency and the understandingof what we're trying to
accomplish.
It very seldom is tell, let go,and so you have to plan for
(13:14):
this middle spot, which takes alittle bit of time but we're not
talking about I'm going tospend eight hours today with you
on this.
Have them do something, reviewit.
Have them do something, reviewit.
Have them do something, reviewit and help them understand.
We're not looking forperfection in this.
We're looking for a draft andtogether we'll make it better.
(13:36):
And when we have a draft, andtogether we'll make it better,
they will grow through that.
Together we'll make it better.
Portion.
That's the explaining, that'sthe working on it together.
Piece.
That's more the messy middle,but that's.
Scott, when you think aboutthat, how much time did you
spend with Michael on thatpodcast?
Scott (13:58):
How much time did you spend with Michael on that
podcast?
Oh, actually spending with himif it was more than 20 minutes,
(14:28):
because most of it was each ofus doing our work and us coming
back together thing.
How much learning curve doesthat person have?
How often do they do it?
Because sometimes it's oh, likeI think of most organizations
budget once or twice a year.
They might do a budget, or theymight do a budget and a revised
budget and you think of howlong does it take for someone to
get really good at budgeting?
It might take several yearsbecause you only have a
(14:50):
repetition once a year versus,oh, I do this five times a day.
I can get five repetitions in aday.
So I think it's also thinkingthrough that like, well, if I
only do this once a week, thatmay not be the thing to offload
from you.
If I do this every day, wow, Iget this really.
(15:13):
I get this big lift if I canshift an everyday thing versus a
once a week thing, versus aonce a month thing.
Tammy (15:20):
So I love this, scott, because here's the piece, right,
we, I think, sometimes imaginein our heads I have to sit down
and I have to design kind of thehow am I going to get them from
here to there?
And you know that's going totake five hours.
Where am I going to carve outfive hours from my day?
(15:43):
This piece of saying what issomething that I can say, hey,
I'm going to move this to them.
It is something that has to bedone frequently.
I'm going to move this to them.
It is something that is thathas to be done frequently.
There's some repetitiveness inthat and we can do quick little
hits 10 minutes here, 15 minuteshere.
You know that kind of thing.
In the end, right, you add upthose things, you can find 10
(16:04):
minutes in a day.
You can find 15 minutes in aday.
10 minutes in a day.
You can find 15 minutes in aday.
It is a matter of saying this isimportant enough that I am
going to go through that messyconversation in the middle and
explain why and look at it andgive feedback.
That thing in these smalllittle hits that over time in a
(16:28):
very short amount of time, ifyou're choosing something that's
a daily or weekly kind ofsituation.
In a short amount of time,they're going to be doing it at
least at a C level and then, asyou continue to move them, get
them to a B level and then, asyou continue to give them
feedback, get them to an A level.
The fact of the matter is youhave very quickly delegated
something and they have takensomething off your plate, and
(16:49):
now they're adding value in abrand new way.
They feel good about it and youhave capacity to go do something
else, and I think there's youknow, and in that space, instead
of just doing what you've beendoing and ending up in the same
place that you ended up, youknow, six months ago when this
started to bug you about it,right?
So it's like, do somethingsmall to move them so that you
(17:14):
have big impact later.
Scott (17:23):
The other harsh reality a little bit here is if you have
people who also can't exploreand try it and learn on their
own, I might suggest to you oneof two things have happened you,
as a leader, have stifled theirability to think and grow, and
or you have a hiring problem.
You're not hiring the rightpeople to be able to think and
(17:44):
explore and learn.
Tammy (17:47):
So, Scott, you just brought something up that for me
is really interesting.
You know, we just published thebook Think, and so we're at
these conferences and we'retalking with folks.
And I had a gentleman come upto me and he was like, after we
did, you know, an hourpresentation on this concept,
and he was like, Tammy, I justfigured something out and I said
(18:09):
what?
And he goes, I took over myfamily's small business.
So this is a business my momand dad, you know, created.
I am second generation.
And he said I'm really, reallystruggling with, like everything
is coming to me, I have to makethe decisions on everything.
And he's like and I don't havetime right To make all these
(18:31):
decisions, and these aredecisions that other people
should be able to make.
And he said and I realized thatmy mother's way of leading was
to tell people his quote, notmine, right?
I did not hire you to think, Ihired you to do.
And he said now I have a wholebunch of people who simply take
(18:51):
orders.
They're order takers.
They come and they're very likethey, they want to do the right
thing.
And so they come to me and saywhat should I do?
And I have to tell them what itis that they have to do, and
then they go do, but they're notthinking.
We have organization afterorganization after organization.
Scott, this story is justillustrative of what we've seen
(19:14):
in many organizations where wehave neutered people's brains
right, we have said, hey, you'renot the smart one, okay, Just
do it my way.
And even when leaders askquestions in those environments,
we have staff who won't answerthose questions, won't think it
(19:34):
through, because they know ifthey don't guess what the leader
wants, they are seen as notbeing smart and capable.
And so, unfortunately, I dothink we have taught people
inside of organizations I'veseen it inside of families to
not use their noggins right, Tosimply wait for someone else to
give them the answer, and inthat space they think that's
(19:57):
good following.
So I do think that that is true, that we have taught them the
wrong thing, the thing thatdoesn't help them, or the
organization flourish.
I love that.
I love that point.
Scott (20:09):
The thing that doesn't help them or the organization
flourish.
I love that.
I love that point.
Then to me the question is allright, I can train someone or
bring them along for a period oftime.
I can say, hey, how do I startto look at myself as a leader?
Am I neutering them in somesort of way or suppressing it?
(20:32):
Or, do you know, am I nothiring quite right?
Because sometimes we're after acertain you know, when we're
not exploring their ability tothink and learn, you know, and
and starting to evolve that whatelse?
I mean, if we kind of boil itdown in my mind, it's what are
the things that are holding youback, as a leader, from from
elevating, and how are youstarting to bring others along?
(20:54):
How are you embodying orrequiring or expecting people to
think and grow maybedifferently than you ever have
before?
Tammy (21:08):
Absolutely, because where we come in is not the only way
that we add value.
That growth over time, that'spart of every human experience,
and when we don't purposely andintentionally grow folks, we
stifle them and that is not goodfor the soul, right?
So, yeah, it's like what am Idoing?
(21:28):
And then do I have thatexpectation and am I, as a
leader, creating an environmentthat's fertile for curiosity,
for growth, for becoming more?
Absolutely, what's the?
I think you had another one.
Scott (21:42):
Yeah, I.
Then I'm wondering, and thethird one is how are you you
know we talked a little bitabout hiring I'm wondering if
it's then starting to look at,okay, me as a leader.
How have I stifled and notallowed kind of this fertile
land?
I'm wondering then are therepolicies, procedures, processes
(22:04):
that we've created that havethose unintended consequences of
also that stifling?
Tammy (22:12):
You know, I think.
So you're really talking kindof like organizational,
environmental, kind of systems,policies, procedures, like think
about how many signatures doyou have to have to be able to
fill in the blank right?
How many levels of permissiondo you have to go through?
Have we have we or do you haveto go through?
Have we have?
Scott (22:30):
we or do you have to turn in travel receipts?
You know to have an invoicepaid.
Tammy (22:35):
Exactly.
And, by the way, everyorganization but ours says yes
to that, scott.
So you know, talk about painand suffering but, like that's
okay, I know how to solve this.
Scott (22:44):
We'll talk later.
Tammy (22:46):
What?
What are, what?
Are all of those places right?
And I think there is thatsystem piece.
One of the things, scott, Iwould tell you that we have seen
in organizations is we haveconcentrated so much on your
ability to do the task right.
So in our hiring we only lookat do have the right credentials
(23:11):
, like I have the righteducation OK, then I have the
right license and then I havethe right experience OK, and
that's like the criteria forhiring.
When, in fact, are we lookingat potential?
Are we looking at the capacityand the desire to grow?
Are we looking at potential?
Are we looking at the capacityand the desire to grow?
Are we looking at adaptability?
(23:33):
Are we looking at how theyinteract with others?
Because all of that is part ofit as well.
And sometimes, right, we hirethe wrong person because we have
a person who has no desire tobe able to like come inside of
an organization and be part ofthat.
They're like this is who I am,this is what I do and this is
(23:55):
what you're going to have to putup with.
Right, and oftentimes those areour energy vampires who don't
understand that our job when wecome into an organization is to
find a way to embrace thatorganization's culture, work
within it and become the best wecan inside of that, versus
saying, hey, I'm an individualentity and so I think that
(24:16):
hiring piece and what we'relooking for and how we go about
hiring is a really big part ofit.
And then the systems that weuse inside, because we use a
nine box system.
Are we actually looking atsomeone's potential?
Are we looking at theircuriosity?
Those are kind of the twodynamics in a nine box and are
we measuring and saying, hey, wewant to keep people that have
(24:40):
high potential and highperformance, we don't want to
keep people who don't have highperformance, don't have high
curiosity, and the places whereyou are not meeting that we need
to have conversations.
Are we having the conversationsto help people understand what
those expectations are?
So I love that there is someorganizational systems in hiring
(25:04):
as well as in settingexpectations, as well as in
growing.
Are we doing the stuff that weneed to do organizationally to
help everyone succeed?
In that it's good.
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Tammy (00:03):
Morning Karman.
Scott (00:05):
Hi, Karmen, hold on, I got to get my there, I got to
get my light right.
Tammy (00:12):
They can't see you, scott , they don't care.
Karman (00:16):
He's really worried about his aesthetic this morning
.
Scott (00:18):
Yeah, I am.
Tammy (00:20):
As he works in someone else's office, he probably
doesn't even have a glamourlight in his own office.
Scott (00:28):
No.
Karman (00:30):
If you had a glamour light in your office, Scott,
would you use it on yourself oron your cat?
Scott (00:37):
The cat.
Tammy (00:38):
Tom.
Tom would be in the spotlightwith glamour light.
Scott (00:42):
Yeah, absolutely yes.
Karman (00:44):
He's a very handsome man .
Scott (00:47):
Well, and it's funny because I saw a I think it was
AI generated or someone doingsome kind of fun.
It was a cat doing stand-upcomedy and the joke was I don't
bring them presents because I'ma good hunter.
I bring them so they know thatif they stop feeding me, this is
(01:09):
what will happen.
Karman (01:13):
Such a cat thing to say.
I love cats.
Well, I'm thinking this morningabout you.
Guys have been traveling a lot.
I can't even always keep trackof where you are from one week
to the next.
I'm glad it's not my job toknow.
Tammy (01:32):
Yeah, we don't say where in the world is Karman, we say
where in the world is Scott.
Karman (01:38):
Yes, and I know that when you guys are out with
clients, but also again atconferences, and you're talking
to a lot of people like that's,that's why you're out there
Right, connecting withorganizations that are in
various stages of whateverthey're trying to accomplish
(02:01):
outcomes, change, growth,accomplish outcomes, change, uh,
growth.
That they're seeking somethingis often why you guys are in the
same spot and I think that youmeet a lot of really interesting
characters and stories in thatprocess.
So my question today is liketell us about some of the
(02:24):
biggest like aha or like Ooh,that's a tough one People that
you've encountered lately.
Tammy (02:34):
I love this one.
We have people.
Stories, I mean people we meetare so interesting, Karman, I
mean so interesting.
Okay, scott, you get to gofirst.
I talk too much.
It's your turn.
Scott (02:50):
Yeah, interesting is an interesting word, because not
now, Karman, as you were talkingwhere my head was at and you
probably see in the chat I wasputting gossamer.
And for those who don't knowgossamer, you need to just look
up Bugs, bunny and Gossamer.
But that image of the red,fluffy monster, right, monsters
must lead interesting lives.
(03:10):
And Bugs is doing his nails andthen he says you know, I'll
look there out there in theaudience, people, people, right,
it is fascinating.
As you talk with folks and youwatch, you know what they say,
their challenges are and thenwhat they are willing to do
(03:41):
about it is always justflabbergasts me sometimes.
I was with an organization thisweek and their executive team
is new.
They've done an organizationaldesign, so they've elevated some
executives and they're talkingabout how do they come together
as an executive team and what isthe work of an executive team.
And actually I'm thinkingthere's like three or four
(04:03):
clients that we've had thisconversation with in the last
few weeks.
Tammy (04:06):
This is really normal.
It's like so what should anexecutive be doing Right?
And there's that's not clearand that's interesting to
recognize that as people go upto the ranks, they don't
recognize that the work changesRight.
Scott (04:23):
And it's well.
No, I was doing.
I was doing this work or I wasdoing this task.
And the advice I gave a CEOthis week was you know, this
person has some longevity withthe organization.
Really, I mean heart's in theright place, really working hard
, and I suggest that maybe theconversation with this person
(04:47):
needs to be that you know I loveyour passion, I love you, know
your commitment.
You can multiply exponentiallyyour impact if you change your
work from you doing to youteaching others how to do.
I think it's an element of yousay you want the change.
(05:11):
Are you willing to do thechange?
Tammy (05:14):
Do you know, scott, years and years and years and years
ago I heard a consultant theyhad this whole thing called the
lazy leader and I was soreactive I was like you cannot
be lazy and be successful.
Those two things like that'snot okay.
(05:36):
That word lazy I am superreactive to.
To me it's like slacker, it'slike you're not a good human
being, because I actually likethat thing that says you know,
when I am like doing stuff, thatactually is the way that I
bring value to the world, theworld.
And it took me years and Ireally do mean this to kind of
(06:01):
go oh, I get it now.
Okay, if I am doing all the work, I am adding value by being the
doer, yes, and there comes atime period that if I'm the only
one that can do the work, theorganization's capacity is like
(06:24):
stuck with just me.
I have to have other people beable to do this work, do this
work effectively, efficientlyand actually even maybe do it
better than I am, so that if Ican have one person do that, or
two people do that, or threepeople do that, all of a sudden
the capacity of the organizationhas grown and I've added value
(06:45):
by having the capacity of theorganization grow because others
now can do those things.
It feels lazy because I'm notdoing it.
It's not lazy I've shifted thework and the output, the gift
that I'm giving, the value tothe organization.
I've shifted what it is andthat is something that every
(07:09):
time someone moves from evenlike a director level in an
organization up into thatexecutive piece, they struggle
with this and they oftentimeshold on.
But that happens even when I gofrom being a frontline to a
supervisor supervisor to manager, manager to director, director
to VP, vp to C-suite.
(07:30):
Every single time you have tolet go of the doing of that job
and find how do I add value inanother way that helps the
organization succeed?
That's a hard one, scott.
I love that one.
Scott (07:46):
Well, and what it really reminds me of is the book I read
years and years ago.
I think it was called theLeadership Pipeline, and the
concept is as you move from onelevel of leadership to the next
level of leadership, there arethings that you need to start
doing, there are things that youneed to stop doing, and how do
(08:08):
you get really purposeful andthoughtful about what those
things are?
Tammy (08:13):
I love that and that it's like sit down and like what's
like make a list, okay, I mean,it really is like what's all
this stuff that needs to be done?
And then look at that andsaying, okay, what stuff of that
should staff be doing?
That's what I used to do.
(08:34):
Who is going to be doing that?
Right, and then what stuff noone's doing, or the person that
I'm replacing used to do, what'sthat look like?
And then if people didn't havea good role model in either of
those places, it's sitting thereand saying what's the best use
of me, right, that theorganization needs, and like
(08:55):
what's that gap and filling thatparticular gap organization
needs, and like what's that gapand filling that particular gap,
and it's okay.
Scott (09:00):
I think, where where I see leaders get stuck sometimes
is, you know, maybe it's notsomething you've done
historically, or maybe theydon't have people that can do it
, and they either say, well,they don't know how, or they
won't do it right, or it'sfaster for me to just do it.
Here's the reality.
All of that is probably truethat is absolutely.
(09:23):
That is absolutely real, and andI think it gets overwhelming
for people because they're likeoh, the and it's.
And you know, what I usuallytell people is like I get it
today.
That's where you are a weekfrom, a week from now, a month
from now, a year from now.
Do you still want to be in thatspot?
(09:43):
And if the answer is no, thenit's what is your action plan?
And it can be all right, I'mgoing to work with Karman so
Karman can do this one thing.
We have three amazing interns.
Yes, we do, and it's like allright, I was editing the podcast
(10:04):
.
First thing I had, like ourintern, michael, who now is
doing the podcast editing.
He's done editing before.
What did I have him do?
He edited one, I listened to it, I gave him feedback, I maybe
did some tweaking.
The next one right, I had himlisten to.
(10:26):
What was it before, what was itafter.
Here's the exact things that Ichanged and we spent some time
calibrate what I call it'scalibration period.
How are you learning and howare you kind of dialing it in?
Marcella, she is right, she'sexploding and expanding our
reach on social media platforms.
(10:47):
She is building social mediaposts and I'm looking at them
and we're talking about hey,that kind of quote really isn't
our voice.
And so there'll be acalibration period where, yep,
she's going to do the work I'mgoing to give her and eventually
she's just going to do it andI'll have no right, I'll do no
(11:09):
approval and no look.
Michael's already at that pointwith the podcast, took him two,
two times.
Now, social media is a littlemore complex because there's
voice and there's look andthere's branding.
So, yeah, probably isn't twoposts.
In that case, maybe it's alittle longer and it's not that.
Oh, that person is no, it'sjust like no, that's more
(11:31):
complicated, but it's.
Are you taking purposeful steps, even if they're baby steps,
purposeful?
Tammy (11:41):
steps, even if they're baby steps, just to start to
swing the pendulum.
So I think a big part of thisis sometimes as leaders in this
space, we think, well, I shouldjust be able to tell them and
then I should be able to let go.
Scott (11:51):
Well, you know, tammy, before you continue, you said an
oxymoron.
Sometimes, as leaders, you saidan oxymoron.
Sometimes, as leaders, we thinkthat.
No, that it is not thinking.
That is a logic leap that theyare making Right and an
assumption.
Tammy (12:06):
It is not thinking.
Thank you very much.
And in that space, it is thisthing that says you know telling
right, which is like I think.
As a leader, I think my job isto tell.
And there is a place fortelling.
There is a place for I need youto do it this way, I need you
to do it this to get thisoutcome, okay.
(12:27):
But there's also a place forexplaining Okay, here's why,
right.
There's also a place for, hey,let's talk it through, let's
kind of make sure that what I'mthinking, what you're thinking,
is going together.
Let's kind of like roll aroundin it and kind of spend some
time so that together we arecoming to the same conclusion
(12:50):
for the same reason.
And then there is a place tolet go.
You can't just well, you can,but successfully.
It's very unusual to tell andlet go and have someone
successfully get to the outcomewith the quality and the
efficiency and the understandingof what we're trying to
accomplish.
It very seldom is tell, let go,and so you have to plan for
(13:14):
this middle spot, which takes alittle bit of time but we're not
talking about I'm going tospend eight hours today with you
on this.
Have them do something, reviewit.
Have them do something, reviewit.
Have them do something, reviewit and help them understand.
We're not looking forperfection in this.
We're looking for a draft andtogether we'll make it better.
(13:36):
And when we have a draft, andtogether we'll make it better,
they will grow through that.
Together we'll make it better.
Portion.
That's the explaining, that'sthe working on it together.
Piece.
That's more the messy middle,but that's.
Scott, when you think aboutthat, how much time did you
spend with Michael on thatpodcast?
Scott (13:58):
How much time did you spend with Michael on that
podcast?
Oh, actually spending with himif it was more than 20 minutes,
(14:28):
because most of it was each ofus doing our work and us coming
back together thing.
How much learning curve doesthat person have?
How often do they do it?
Because sometimes it's oh, likeI think of most organizations
budget once or twice a year.
They might do a budget, or theymight do a budget and a revised
budget and you think of howlong does it take for someone to
get really good at budgeting?
It might take several yearsbecause you only have a
(14:50):
repetition once a year versus,oh, I do this five times a day.
I can get five repetitions in aday.
So I think it's also thinkingthrough that like, well, if I
only do this once a week, thatmay not be the thing to offload
from you.
If I do this every day, wow, Iget this really.
(15:13):
I get this big lift if I canshift an everyday thing versus a
once a week thing, versus aonce a month thing.
Tammy (15:20):
So I love this, scott, because here's the piece, right,
we, I think, sometimes imaginein our heads I have to sit down
and I have to design kind of thehow am I going to get them from
here to there?
And you know that's going totake five hours.
Where am I going to carve outfive hours from my day?
(15:43):
This piece of saying what issomething that I can say, hey,
I'm going to move this to them.
It is something that has to bedone frequently.
I'm going to move this to them.
It is something that is thathas to be done frequently.
There's some repetitiveness inthat and we can do quick little
hits 10 minutes here, 15 minuteshere.
You know that kind of thing.
In the end, right, you add upthose things, you can find 10
(16:04):
minutes in a day.
You can find 15 minutes in aday.
10 minutes in a day.
You can find 15 minutes in aday.
It is a matter of saying this isimportant enough that I am
going to go through that messyconversation in the middle and
explain why and look at it andgive feedback.
That thing in these smalllittle hits that over time in a
(16:28):
very short amount of time, ifyou're choosing something that's
a daily or weekly kind ofsituation.
In a short amount of time,they're going to be doing it at
least at a C level and then, asyou continue to move them, get
them to a B level and then, asyou continue to give them
feedback, get them to an A level.
The fact of the matter is youhave very quickly delegated
something and they have takensomething off your plate, and
(16:49):
now they're adding value in abrand new way.
They feel good about it and youhave capacity to go do something
else, and I think there's youknow, and in that space, instead
of just doing what you've beendoing and ending up in the same
place that you ended up, youknow, six months ago when this
started to bug you about it,right?
So it's like, do somethingsmall to move them so that you
(17:14):
have big impact later.
Scott (17:23):
The other harsh reality a little bit here is if you have
people who also can't exploreand try it and learn on their
own, I might suggest to you oneof two things have happened you,
as a leader, have stifled theirability to think and grow, and
or you have a hiring problem.
You're not hiring the rightpeople to be able to think and
(17:44):
explore and learn.
Tammy (17:47):
So, Scott, you just brought something up that for me
is really interesting.
You know, we just published thebook Think, and so we're at
these conferences and we'retalking with folks.
And I had a gentleman come upto me and he was like, after we
did, you know, an hourpresentation on this concept,
and he was like, Tammy, I justfigured something out and I said
(18:09):
what?
And he goes, I took over myfamily's small business.
So this is a business my momand dad, you know, created.
I am second generation.
And he said I'm really, reallystruggling with, like everything
is coming to me, I have to makethe decisions on everything.
And he's like and I don't havetime right To make all these
(18:31):
decisions, and these aredecisions that other people
should be able to make.
And he said and I realized thatmy mother's way of leading was
to tell people his quote, notmine, right?
I did not hire you to think, Ihired you to do.
And he said now I have a wholebunch of people who simply take
(18:51):
orders.
They're order takers.
They come and they're very likethey, they want to do the right
thing.
And so they come to me and saywhat should I do?
And I have to tell them what itis that they have to do, and
then they go do, but they're notthinking.
We have organization afterorganization after organization.
Scott, this story is justillustrative of what we've seen
(19:14):
in many organizations where wehave neutered people's brains
right, we have said, hey, you'renot the smart one, okay, Just
do it my way.
And even when leaders askquestions in those environments,
we have staff who won't answerthose questions, won't think it
(19:34):
through, because they know ifthey don't guess what the leader
wants, they are seen as notbeing smart and capable.
And so, unfortunately, I dothink we have taught people
inside of organizations I'veseen it inside of families to
not use their noggins right, Tosimply wait for someone else to
give them the answer, and inthat space they think that's
(19:57):
good following.
So I do think that that is true, that we have taught them the
wrong thing, the thing thatdoesn't help them, or the
organization flourish.
I love that.
I love that point.
Scott (20:09):
The thing that doesn't help them or the organization
flourish.
I love that.
I love that point.
Then to me the question is allright, I can train someone or
bring them along for a period oftime.
I can say, hey, how do I startto look at myself as a leader?
Am I neutering them in somesort of way or suppressing it?
(20:32):
Or, do you know, am I nothiring quite right?
Because sometimes we're after acertain you know, when we're
not exploring their ability tothink and learn, you know, and
and starting to evolve that whatelse?
I mean, if we kind of boil itdown in my mind, it's what are
the things that are holding youback, as a leader, from from
elevating, and how are youstarting to bring others along?
(20:54):
How are you embodying orrequiring or expecting people to
think and grow maybedifferently than you ever have
before?
Tammy (21:08):
Absolutely, because where we come in is not the only way
that we add value.
That growth over time, that'spart of every human experience,
and when we don't purposely andintentionally grow folks, we
stifle them and that is not goodfor the soul, right?
So, yeah, it's like what am Idoing?
(21:28):
And then do I have thatexpectation and am I, as a
leader, creating an environmentthat's fertile for curiosity,
for growth, for becoming more?
Absolutely, what's the?
I think you had another one.
Scott (21:42):
Yeah, I.
Then I'm wondering, and thethird one is how are you you
know we talked a little bitabout hiring I'm wondering if
it's then starting to look at,okay, me as a leader.
How have I stifled and notallowed kind of this fertile
land?
I'm wondering then are therepolicies, procedures, processes
(22:04):
that we've created that havethose unintended consequences of
also that stifling?
Tammy (22:12):
You know, I think.
So you're really talking kindof like organizational,
environmental, kind of systems,policies, procedures, like think
about how many signatures doyou have to have to be able to
fill in the blank right?
How many levels of permissiondo you have to go through?
Have we have we or do you haveto go through?
Have we have?
Scott (22:30):
we or do you have to turn in travel receipts?
You know to have an invoicepaid.
Tammy (22:35):
Exactly.
And, by the way, everyorganization but ours says yes
to that, scott.
So you know, talk about painand suffering but, like that's
okay, I know how to solve this.
Scott (22:44):
We'll talk later.
Tammy (22:46):
What?
What are, what?
Are all of those places right?
And I think there is thatsystem piece.
One of the things, scott, Iwould tell you that we have seen
in organizations is we haveconcentrated so much on your
ability to do the task right.
So in our hiring we only lookat do have the right credentials
(23:11):
, like I have the righteducation OK, then I have the
right license and then I havethe right experience OK, and
that's like the criteria forhiring.
When, in fact, are we lookingat potential?
Are we looking at the capacityand the desire to grow?
Are we looking at potential?
Are we looking at the capacityand the desire to grow?
Are we looking at adaptability?
(23:33):
Are we looking at how theyinteract with others?
Because all of that is part ofit as well.
And sometimes, right, we hirethe wrong person because we have
a person who has no desire tobe able to like come inside of
an organization and be part ofthat.
They're like this is who I am,this is what I do and this is
(23:55):
what you're going to have to putup with.
Right, and oftentimes those areour energy vampires who don't
understand that our job when wecome into an organization is to
find a way to embrace thatorganization's culture, work
within it and become the best wecan inside of that, versus
saying, hey, I'm an individualentity and so I think that
(24:16):
hiring piece and what we'relooking for and how we go about
hiring is a really big part ofit.
And then the systems that weuse inside, because we use a
nine box system.
Are we actually looking atsomeone's potential?
Are we looking at theircuriosity?
Those are kind of the twodynamics in a nine box and are
we measuring and saying, hey, wewant to keep people that have
(24:40):
high potential and highperformance, we don't want to
keep people who don't have highperformance, don't have high
curiosity, and the places whereyou are not meeting that we need
to have conversations.
Are we having the conversationsto help people understand what
those expectations are?
So I love that there is someorganizational systems in hiring
(25:04):
as well as in settingexpectations, as well as in
growing.
Are we doing the stuff that weneed to do organizationally to
help everyone succeed?
In that it's good.
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