Fostering a Culture of Thought: Tactics for Modern Leaders

Diving beneath surface-level leadership advice, our conversation explores how to truly foster environments where thinking flourishes. We unpack two pivotal tactics from our new book that transform organizational culture: the power of reading and the counterintuitive approach of "staying stupid longer."

Reading isn't just about information acquisition—it's about making connections between ideas that spark innovation. When leaders read deeply and encourage teams to do the same, they create neural networks of knowledge that drive breakthrough thinking. The magic happens not just in solitary reading but in the collective discussion of ideas, where different perspectives illuminate blind spots and challenge assumptions. As we share, reading approximately fifty books yearly provides a substantial foundation for leadership thinking, but it's the active engagement—highlighting passages, making connections between concepts—that transforms passive information into actionable insight.

Perhaps more surprising is our second favorite tactic: "Stay Stupid Longer" (SSL). This approach challenges leaders to resist providing immediate solutions when team members raise questions. When experienced leaders with organizational authority quickly offer answers, they inadvertently shut down thinking throughout their team. People learn to wait for direction rather than developing analytical abilities. By intentionally holding back expertise—"staying stupid longer"—leaders create space for others to develop and articulate their thinking. This builds problem-solving capacity throughout the organization rather than centralizing it with leadership.

Ready to transform your leadership approach? These two tactics represent just a third of our complete framework for building cultures where thinking thrives. Discover all six tactics and practical implementation strategies in our new book—because organizations that think together succeed together.

Episode Transcript

Karman (00:01):
Hello Scott and Tammy, hello Karman.

Scott (00:05):
What the f*** is up, Karman.

Tammy (00:08):
You're so terrible.
This is my co-CEO, Karman, whois a potty mouth.

Scott (00:14):
It's true.
Yeah, it's a Kohler, at least.
It's an expensive potty.
It's actually.
It's a really expensive potty.
It's a a toro t-o-r-o.
You know one of those, toto?
Oh, I thought toto was a bandwell, that and a really

(00:38):
expensive, and a reallyexpensive of okay, because it's
a japanese toilet that's true.

Tammy (00:43):
That hangs usually off the wall.

Scott (00:45):
Yeah, and has heated seats Is it gold-plated no, but
it feels like it have you sat inone I have, yeah.
We rented an Airbnb that hadone and I looked it up and I
kind of threw up in my mouth alittle bit when I saw it was
$1,400 for a toilet.
There you go, yeah.
Okay, did for a toilet, thereyou go, yeah.

Karman (01:03):
Okay, did it make you appreciate the experience?

Scott (01:06):
more.
Well, what I really appreciatedwas we were somewhere in
February and it was cold out,and when you sit down on a
heated toilet seat, there'ssomething comforting about that.

Karman (01:20):
I actually have a different feeling when I'm
sitting on a warm toilet seatbut I'm not going to go there.
I understand that's not ourpoint today.

Scott (01:28):
No, I'm thinking, not our point.

Karman (01:31):
I want to talk a little bit about your new book.
New book, new book, thank you.
I love this book and you knowwe we um have talked a little
bit about the idea behind thebook and some previous podcasts.
What I want to talk about todayis the tactics that you guys

(01:53):
tackle for helping leaders get aculture of thinking established
or reestablished in theirworkplace Perfect.
And you go through about sevendifferent tactics in the book.
What I want to know today is,like in your secret heart of
hearts, which of those tacticsis your favorite?

Tammy (02:20):
Of all the tactics in the book, which one is our favorite
?

Scott (02:23):
Well, there's two ways to look at that.

Tammy (02:25):
Yeah, one, what do we see as being most effective?
And two, like which one do Ireally just like, cause I like
it.

Karman (02:33):
I'm looking for the second one.

Tammy (02:35):
Ah, okay, which one do I like Cause I just like it.
Okay, you get to go first.

Scott (02:40):
Yeah, well, there are.
There are six of them, six, andif you really want to know what
my favorite is, the first thingyou do is buy a book, and then
I'm going to tell you myfavorite is tactic number three.

Tammy (02:54):
All right, so tactic number three is what.

Scott (02:55):
When they buy the book, they'll know.

Tammy (02:59):
That is true.
And since we're on a podcast,oh, I'm sorry, yes, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

Scott (03:04):
I don't even know what tactic number three is.
I just picked a number to drivethe point home.

Tammy (03:10):
Because it says that thinkers read oh nice.
So that's the formal.
I'll just read it out of thebook.
Right Tactic number threereaders are thinkers.
That's the one that you chose.

Scott (03:24):
Number three, readers, are thinkers.
That's the one that you chose.
You know, actually, thatprobably is my favorite and and
it really is what I think aboutwhen I really started to read I
mean back in the long, long daysago, but when I really started
to read professional books andstarted to see the connections

(03:46):
of oh, this book is very similarto that one.
And when you startinterconnecting the thinking and
the collective thinking of thedifferent authors, for me that's
when light bulbs went off.
That's where I thought I reallystarted to make a difference,
because not only did I connectdots, but then I started to
actually apply the things andmake changes, make refinements.

(04:08):
Um, and then, for the otherpart, is when you ask staff to
read, or we force staff to read,and you say, well, what was
your best, what was yourfavorite learning lesson out of
the book?
And um, it's always, sometimes,you know, I love when they have
something and it's sometimesfun to watch them squirm when

(04:30):
they haven't read.

Tammy (04:32):
You know, I will tell you my best professor right.
One of the things he would dois he would just sign reading
assignments and then he wouldjust out of out of a bowl.
He would go in and pull out aname.
Oh, that person had to actuallyrespond to the question that he
had about the book, which Ialways loved in that particular

(04:52):
space as well.
I will tell you that ourbusiness book club, that we do
along with that, which isn'talways about our book, obviously
, but um, that listening andtalking with other people about
the book, not just reading ityourself, but actually having
people to like talk about itwith that and like debate back
and forth and to say what didyou take out of it?
Cause I think sometimes theytake more out of the book that I

(05:15):
did, or they see things out ofthe book that I didn't see, and
I really love to hear otherpeople's perspective.
So that is the other side ofthat is, I don't.
I like to read and I think it'simportant that individuals and
if you want to truly have peoplethink reading helps you.
The conversation about the bookis also the thing that I think

(05:39):
expands that perspective.
So I don't like to read inisolation, I'd like to read in
groups, yeah, so from thatstandpoint that makes a lot of
sense to me.

Scott (05:47):
A hundred percent.

Tammy (05:48):
So you stole mine oh well .
And you did it just likerandomly, which also pisses me
off.
You do this thing to me all thetime Because, honestly, that is
by far the one that for me, isthe most meaningful.
It's the place that I grew themost.
It's the place that I think hashad the most individual impact.

(06:11):
And think about it, scott howmany books do you read a year?

Scott (06:17):
You know it's probably around 50.
Now it's down mostly because oftime and they're starting to
well, I can't say they'restarting to say the same thing,
because our book isn't sayingthe same thing.
So it's probably around 50.

Tammy (06:35):
So I will tell you, historically, if you look over
my professional career, it'sbeen more than 50 this year.
It's way down for a lot ofother reasons in that particular
spot, but I think that's one ofthe things that's also
interesting is I like I readpleasure books and I consume
them.
And I read it and I'm done, butfor some reason consume them

(06:56):
and I read it and I'm done.
But for some reason, when I amreading business books, my I'm
much more in tune in thatparticular spot.
I write in them, I highlightthem and, um, I'm reading one
right now that I just picked upon Monday and, um, I am excited
to finish it.
And I was sitting in the planewhen we were flying to Atlanta
and I'm highlighting stuff and Iam underlining and the lady

(07:18):
next to me she goes what are youdoing, you know?
And I was like, well, that'show I remember things and that's
how I tie in this book intothat book.
And for me it's not aboutconsuming.
It is actually about like beingcritical about that or making
connections in other places.
So when I read business books,I read it differently than I

(07:40):
read a pleasure book.
A pleasure book is more aboutwhat's going to happen next, and
I am thinking while I'm readingbusiness books, which is
probably why it's my favorite inthat but if I can't do that one
, because you already stole that.

Scott (07:55):
Well, you can.

Tammy (07:56):
I can, but I don't think that was your real question,
Carmen, right?

Scott (08:00):
You said what was a favorite.
You can do what's your secondfavorite.

Tammy (08:03):
I'm going to go my second favorite Since you've answered
what's your first favorite?

Scott (08:07):
you've answered the question.

Tammy (08:09):
My second favorite is SSL .

Scott (08:12):
Oh yeah.

Tammy (08:13):
Which we've talked about before.
Okay, but it is a leadershiptactic.

Scott (08:19):
Super Scottalicious.

Tammy (08:22):
Don't you wish, don't you wish that you were a dessert,
but you are not.

Scott (08:28):
Oh, I see a podcast coming.

Tammy (08:30):
I do.

Scott (08:31):
If you were a dessert, what would you be?

Tammy (08:35):
scotch a room no, no banana pudding, I was gonna say
lava cake you know, in that spotsquishy in the inside, but you
know, pretty delicious on theoutside.

Scott (08:48):
Yeah, and that's.
There.

Tammy (08:49):
Weren't so many witnesses around, I'd say no, you cannot
say that one, and that istotally and completely
inappropriate.
And I know exactly where yourbrain was going, because you are
naughty, yeah, very, verynaughty.
Okay, it's tactic two.

Scott (09:04):
SSL, which means stay stupid longer.

Tammy (09:06):
And the thing about staying stupid longer is when we
answer people's questions, whenwe always bring our solution to
the table, or our tactic, ouridea, our perspective especially
as someone that has been in theorganization longer, has a

(09:29):
little bit more experienceunderneath their belt or has a
big old, flippant title rightwhen we bring stuff to the table
, people stop thinking and theyjust go.
Well, scott and Tammy knowswhat that is, and that's true of
every organization.
Anytime you have anorganizational title, other
people stop thinking it throughand they'll just follow you.

(09:50):
Staying stupid longer allowspeople to bring their ideas to
their table.
It allows them to exploreinstead of just responding to
someone else's thought, and sothat's probably my second
favorite in the book, and it'sone that, as a leader, is really
really, really hard to do.

(10:11):
And, organizationally, if wecan help leaders not bring the
answer, but encourage their teamto bring the answer, it makes
the difference, and that's whatI really love about that
particular one.
I think it works, and I thinkit makes people think instead of
do.

Scott (10:34):
Yeah, love that.
So what would you?
What advice would you give thereaders?
Or are we just ending it on do?
Huh advice yeah, oh, is thattoo shameful?
That's what I was thinking toomaybe it's not too shameful.

Tammy (10:55):
Maybe the part of that is those are two tactics, but if
you want to know what the otherfour are, read the book.