August 13, 2025 • 23 mins
What happens when you're responsible for leading a change you don't fully believe in? This question sits at the heart of modern leadership challenges, where changes arrive faster than ever and often from sources beyond our control.
For leaders navigating this landscape, the critical skill isn't avoiding change but transforming how we process it. The most effective approach starts with recognizing our emotional reactions—the fear, resistance, or uncertainty—and deliberately shifting to analytical thinking. By asking structured questions about benefits, concerns, and potential solutions, leaders regain a sense of agency that emotional reactions steal away. This shift doesn't just benefit the leader; it prevents the "infection" of negative reactions throughout the organization.
The timing of change acceptance follows predictable patterns. What takes an executive team months to decide will take directors a similar timeframe to accept, and staff members need equivalent time to process. Leaders often forget this "multiplier effect," expecting immediate buy-in from people who haven't participated in the decision-making conversations. People respond to change by freezing, fighting, fleeing, or appeasing—all natural reactions that require patient leadership to navigate successfully.
Whether change comes from internal decisions or external forces, the leader's responsibility remains the same: to process your own reactions first, help others through their emotional journey, and create space for everyone to find their place within the new reality. When you do this well, even the changes you didn't choose can become opportunities for organizational growth and cohesion rather than sources of division and resistance.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning, tammy and Scott Good morning.
Scott (00:05):
C goin do
Karman (00:10):
I'm going down.
What are you?
No?
Scott (00:12):
what's going down?
Karman (00:13):
You're not going down.
Scott (00:15):
Oh okay.
Karman (00:16):
I mean he's like I don't want to go down, I want to live
.
I want to live Right.
Well, there's a lot of changehappening at my house right now.
There's a big remodelingproject that's getting started
just on the other side of thedoor, and you guys know that
(00:38):
change is one of the topics thatI enjoy the most.
I don't always enjoy the changeitself, but I like talking
about change.
Of course you do so.
My question today is forleaders who find themselves with
(00:58):
change thrust upon them and whomaybe aren't completely on
board yet, but need to be fortheir organization.
And so you're a leader, you'reresponsible for rolling out a
change in your organization.
(01:20):
You're not quite sure about it.
How do you go about rollingthat out anyway, and is it
different if that change iscoming from an internal or an
external source?
Tammy (01:34):
So Karman ,, I actually love this question, and I love
it because it is happening inevery industry, in every company
, to every person with a titleinside of an organization, to
every frontline employee.
Change, whether we like it ornot, is being thrust upon us,
(01:59):
and is thrust upon us in waysthat is uncomfortable for many.
Even folks who are change ready, like, who enjoy change,
oftentimes feel as if, you know,this stuff is being thrown on
top of their shoulders all ofthe time.
So it's an important thing totalk about and I think there's
(02:24):
this impression sometimes insideof an organization that you
know, if I, if only I was incharge, if only I could be the
person making the decisions, youknow, then we would be making
you know, quote, unquote betterdecisions, right, and there is
(02:46):
kind of this fallacy thatsomewhere someone is completely
and totally in charge and theyare, you know, they are all
powerful, they get to make allthese decisions and everything
is fine, and they want to be inthat seat.
And what's really reallyinteresting is, no matter if you
really look, even the CEO,president of an organization,
(03:07):
traditionally has a board, OK,but even if you're in that
particular spot, you knowthere's always state, federal,
county regulations, right,there's, there's laws and
there's stuff that happens, andso the fact of the matter is is
that every single person, nomatter what seat, that you're in
, change is thrust on you thatyou have nothing to say about
(03:29):
and just kind of getting yourarms around that that, even as
much as you want to be incontrol, the fact of the matter
is there's a whole bunch ofstuff that we can't and do not
have the ability to control, andit's really like just kind of
sit in that for a moment.
No, you don't need the nexttitle, right?
There's always going to bechange.
(03:51):
That is thrust upon you, right?
No matter what.
Scott (03:55):
And it's remembering that we're all in quote in the
middle right.
As you talk about change, Ialways think about what you know
people.
You say well, the only thingyou have to do is pay taxes to
die, right?
Well, I would argue, you don'thave to pay taxes.
There just comes consequences.
If you look at kind of the rateof change, if you think kind of
in chunks of five years at atime okay.
(04:29):
So if you think from 2005 to2010, it got about twice as fast
Between 2010 and 2020, fourtimes as fast.
If we look at between 2020 andnow, it's even twice as fast
since 2010.
(04:52):
Well, since 2010, it's fivetimes as fast.
Since 2020, it's twice as fastas it was.
It is being projected that itis going to be almost 15 to 20
times the rate of change by like2030, 2035.
Think about that.
Tammy (05:13):
Yeah, and if we think, even I think about even just AI,
yeah, what has happened with AIsince we first started talking
about it today?
Right, I mean, it's like, areyou, are you kidding me?
(05:35):
You know, like, what I can thisAI will do.
Fill in the blank, right, Imean, that wasn't even in my
like brain.
You're right and I?
This is stupid, but I wasStrange New Worlds is a
television show.
It's a takeoff of Star Trekthat is out there and my husband
is a Star Trek fan and we werewatching it last night and they
had someone who had a medicalthing.
They said to the computer hey,if we were to do this, tell us,
(06:00):
you know, run the diagnosticsand tell us what the opportunity
of success is.
Right, and I'm watching this inStrange New World and realizing
that we can do that today withAI.
Right, it's just like, andthere was a time period when
that was like futuristic andit's not futuristic anymore.
It's actually in our ownbackyard and that's kind of the
(06:21):
changes that we're talking about.
Scott (06:45):
And that's kind of the changes that we're talking about
.
It's like, you know, this wasstuff that we watched as kids,
right, that we thought wouldnever happen.
That is absolutely happeningtoday and it's happening in a
way that, you know, it looksjust like how we imagined the
future.
It's kind of a weird thing, ormaybe it was in place and like
it was just held back andreleased just so like things on
TV could be predictions and bemade true.
I don't know, like I'm not surewhich.
Tammy (06:56):
I don't know.
Conspiracy theory.
Scott (06:58):
Yeah.
Tammy (06:59):
Right.
Scott (07:00):
So then it really then becomes and personally I think
about this often that you know,as leaders, how do we lead and
plan for the change.
That has become super importantas individuals.
Again, whether we're leaders, aleader in the middle, somewhere
(07:21):
top of the organization, bottom,like to me, it doesn't matter.
How are you making changecomfortable?
Like how are you looking at this?
And like not being frozen whensomething changes and being
curious and and I'm not sayinglet's just blindly accept, but
(07:43):
look at what's good about that,what's potential risky about
that, how can I adapt in thatsituation and there's probably
decisions in there to why weeven want to live with this,
which might mean I don't want tolive this, I can't accept this
and I'm gonna go find a new jobbecause at the end, like to me,
at the end of the day, if you'renot making the decision and you
(08:05):
, it's something you need to door have to do because that's
your role.
Your job in that moment isaccept and align or get out,
which is hard.
Now I'm being harsh, okay.
Now, that doesn't mean blindly,that doesn't mean let's go do a
bunch of illegal shit.
That just means, like I do haveto look at this reasonably, and
(08:25):
as a leader, I need to do whatI can to make it as clear and as
thoughtful as I can, but inboth cases it just isn't.
Tammy (08:34):
You know, Scott, you said something and I'm going to take
it back.
Karman (08:37):
Right.
Tammy (08:39):
Kind of unfold it, what the questions that you were
asking were analysis questions,oh for sure, yeah, and and one
of the things that to help us tomake change comfortable, let's
go back to your, to your phrase,right, when we actually put
that analysis hat on, right,what's what's good about this
(09:02):
idea?
What are my concerns about thisidea?
How could I overcome thoseconcerns?
What could we do to make thisas painless as possible?
Right, what you haveeffectively done is you've moved
into the logic side of yourbrain.
Most of us are in this emotionalside of the brain when those
(09:24):
changes come.
Right, we are feeling thefeelings.
When we go to analysis, westart thinking the thinking, and
that actually helps us problemsolve.
Now, whether I like it or not,that's the emotion, it's the hey
, what can I do about that?
That's the place where we takecontrol again.
(09:46):
That's the place where we getto make decisions, that's the
place where we can get our feetplanted, and that thing is
actually the action that isgoing to help us move forward.
So, when we're in this placeand I don't like it feeling
emotion right In that space, itis the action of moving it into
(10:10):
analysis and thinking about itthat can make us find that spot.
So how do I do that?
Well, if this has been thrustupon me by quote unquote top of
the organization, okay, that's,put my analysis hat on.
Go back and say help meunderstand.
I don't quite get how we got tothis conclusion.
(10:32):
My concern is so this thingthat I'm concerned about how
could we go about addressingthat?
These are analysis questionsthat you can have a dialogue
with upper management about, notin a way that says you're doing
this flippity, flippity wrong,but in a way that says I am
doing my best to try to figureout how to implement it.
(10:54):
So I'm asking some questions sothat I have the information
that I need, so that when myteam asks me the questions that
I need, so that when my teamasks me the questions, I am
supporting you.
Because the place that we screwup is when we haven't gotten
the information, done, theanalysis, and we take all of
(11:15):
that emotion and we push it downto that next level and we let
them start wallowing in thatthis isn't right emotion, okay.
So if we can, in that moment,just take a beat and say I'm
feeling this, okay, that's great.
Now let's ask the questions.
And if I can ask thosequestions up so that I get the
(11:37):
information, if I can't ask thequestions here before I start to
infect everybody else.
Because you know we've talkedabout this before how weird it
is to have these titles and havepeople like look at us and
defer to us.
It doesn't matter if you're ateam lead, a supervisor, a
manager, a director or a vicepresident.
(11:58):
You infect others, and so youhave to think about the fact
that you have a responsibilityto not infect them.
Therefore, you have to manageyourself before you just go
ahead and infect everybody elsebecause of that responsibility
in that space.
So, going from get out of theemotion, going into the logic,
(12:21):
asking the questions or askingyourself the questions before
you push that through theorganization, it will save you
so much grief later on.
But if you're reactive, ifyou're not thinking, if you are
reactive in those moments, youactually make it a bigger issue
and the change becomes morepainful for everyone and lasts
(12:42):
longer.
So that analysis, scott, Iloved what you said Start
thinking, put the thinking capon and start asking questions
and start problem solving, and Ithink it's easy for me.
Scott (12:54):
I'm generally pretty change ready, number one, and I
don't have a way to say thiswithout making it sound super
elitistical and that I don'tintend it that way.
But you know we can have somefun with it.
Tammy (13:07):
So I will beat you up later.
Scott (13:09):
Yeah, that's OK.
Yeah, yeah, it's one of it's.
Just think last week.
This is one of the traits.
That is glorious and a pain inthe ass.
Ok, yep, in the end, I processinformation really pretty
quickly.
Tammy (13:22):
You are so fast, Scott.
Scott (13:27):
And so part of that is many times I see the angles and
lots of perspectives which I canget on board with things pretty
quickly.
Now I also know the downside ofthat is it becomes frustrating
for me to then have to oh my God, we have to talk through this
37,000 more times.
(13:48):
For some people Like that canbe super annoying for me.
Tammy (13:53):
And you're impatient with that.
I am impatient with that.
I mean super impatient withthat, and I know that, yeah, you
push it out to others.
Scott (14:00):
And I know that, yeah, you pushed it out to others.
There's a piece of this that wealso have to look at it, and was
just doing a leadership sessionlast week talking about your
what's your multiplier andthinking of change or how long
something will take, as, thehigher you go in the
organization, as you go from oh,I'm a frontline supervisor and
(14:22):
then maybe I'm a manager or adirector of you know, whatever
your titles are you becomelayers removed and your
multiplier has to get bigger.
Now what I mean by multiplierhere when you're talking about
changes bigger.
Now what I mean by multiplierhere when you're talking about
changes, how long will it takefor someone to accept it or get
on board with it?
You might think, oh, a day.
Okay, I can tell you mymultiplier is 20 to 30, which
(14:47):
means, if I think a day, itreally means 20 to 30 days For
someone else, for someone elseand that doesn't mean they're 20
to 30 times slower than me.
It's like no, that just meansthat that's probably how long it
will take them go through theanalysis process and to go
(15:07):
through all of these things.
Tammy (15:11):
And we forget this I'm laughing because I'm
thinking about an organizationthat we worked, we still work
with, right and we rolled out ahuge change.
I remember how many months youspent talking with the senior
team to help them make thedecisions right.
And let's just say it was.
(15:32):
I think it was like four tofive months that you actually
worked with the senior team andthey made some decisions and
they were like, okay, we'regoing to roll it out and we'll
roll it down to that next leveland you know we'll have a
meeting and then they'll roll itdown to the next level.
And we were like, uh-uh, yougot to let that next level roll
(15:52):
around in it.
And they were like, why?
And they were like, it's soclear.
Well, yeah, it was clear,because the senior, the
executive team, spent like fourmonths working it out and having
all these conversations.
None of those conversations werelike the rest of the
organization was not privy tothat.
And so here it is.
(16:12):
And they were just like, well,we'll tell them and they'll be
fine.
Well, we brought it down tothat next level and we'll call
that level director level, right, and that director level.
And I remember because I wasworking with the director level
Scott, you were with the seniorlevel, I was working with the
director level and they werelike struggling and working.
Right Now I have to be honestwith you.
(16:33):
The senior team did a prettygood job of explaining things
and answering questions and allthat kind of stuff, but that
director level reallyinteresting.
It took them about six weeks toget their arms around it and
not even all of them got theirarms around it in that six-week
time.
Scott (16:47):
Well, and I can tell you, I can remember the day it was
announced, there were a handfulof directors that for that
entire day because it wassupposed to be a like a work
session the entire day therewere a couple directors.
They were frozen, they couldnot get out, they could not Like
(17:07):
, they were like they were.
They basically contributednothing.
Now, I have to give one one ofthem were at least had the
awareness to say I'm strugglinghere and I know that I'm
struggling.
They were able to verbalizethat, which to me is great.
That's okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
But for me it's so weird towatch people be so frozen.
(17:30):
I can't fathom being thatfrozen.
I mean, I shared with you Bethis traveling, okay, so I'm
taking care of the horses.
I didn't realize we have tochain the gate because they're
smart enough to open the damngate.
Okay, so I'm half a pastureaway and I look and I see two
(17:50):
horses in our front lawn and allI'm thinking was, if they get
up to the road, this is bad.
Okay, now, yes, it's.
I had a little stress in thatmoment, okay, so I run to the
garage and I'm like okay, whatdo I do?
Like and just like centermyself just for a second Cause
(18:11):
you could get really easy to befrozen, like, like, okay, how do
I get them from the yard backto the pasture?
I'm like, oh, food, they willfollow me for food.
And so I dumped a little foodon the ground and one just stood
there and ate it and the otherone I lured in with the food in
the in a feed bucket, put themin, went back, let that finish
(18:35):
and she followed me in like nobig deal.
Tammy (18:39):
Yeah, in that moment it would be really easy to just
freeze and say Well, and that'sthe research in all of this says
right, we freeze, we run away,flight, we fight or we appease.
I mean, that's like here is thenatural thing that happens.
And that's what we forget inthis change.
(19:02):
Is that in that moment, pleaseknow, those are all that emotion
side.
They're in that emotion,they're in that fear spot right
In their brain, in that space.
It is our job to recognize that.
We have to let people workthese things out, and that
doesn't just happen in ananosecond.
(19:23):
And Scott, those directors, theyworked at this and they had
conversations and they, you know, and I think it was about a
full quarter for those directorsand again, not all of them got
to it in a full quarter, but Ithink that's about the amount of
time that it took them, which,by the way, was about the same
amount of time that the seniorleaders took to make the
(19:44):
decisions.
And once those directors wereon board, now we're pushing it
down to staff.
They don't really have a lot offolks that are managers or
supervisors underneath that, sothey really were pushing it down
to staff at that next level.
I remember them, the directors,then coming back and saying why
are these folks so resistant,right, because it was like they
(20:06):
had thought it through and itwas now so clear to them and
they were ready to go.
They had staff that the vastmajority came on board again in
about a quarter, okay, but theyhad a year later a couple of
holdouts right, that just werenot going to let go of that
particular space.
(20:27):
And it is this piece ofremembering that, in change, if
folks don't feel in control, iffolks don't get to the place
where they get to make somedecisions and move some things
forward, if they are not askingthe question and getting into
the logic side of their brain,they get stuck.
(20:48):
Some of them are just going tofreeze, some of them are going
to fight, some of them are goingto appease and some of them are
going to freeze.
Some of them are going to fight, some of them are going to
appease and some of them aregoing to run away.
And in fact that's what happensinside of an organization when
change comes.
The question is are you, as aleader, going to help them
through those four stages andget them to stay in the fold, or
(21:11):
are those four responses tochange the things that then
divides us and them?
And in the end, if we're makingorganizational changes, whether
it is our choice or on theoutside, we don't want to lose
our great staff.
If we lose staff, that's notgreat.
Maybe that's the bonus ofchange.
(21:31):
However, the staff that we wantto keep, those are the folks
that I think it makes sense forus to put the effort and energy
in to get them out of thoseplaces where they are stuck and
move them forward.
And again, best way to do thatlogic analysis, options,
alternatives and allow them tohave a place where they are in
(21:55):
control of something in themidst of that change, so that
they feel that they'recontributing.
Good morning, tammy and Scott Good morning.
Scott (00:05):
C goin do
Karman (00:10):
I'm going down.
What are you?
No?
Scott (00:12):
what's going down?
Karman (00:13):
You're not going down.
Scott (00:15):
Oh okay.
Karman (00:16):
I mean he's like I don't want to go down, I want to live
.
I want to live Right.
Well, there's a lot of changehappening at my house right now.
There's a big remodelingproject that's getting started
just on the other side of thedoor, and you guys know that
(00:38):
change is one of the topics thatI enjoy the most.
I don't always enjoy the changeitself, but I like talking
about change.
Of course you do so.
My question today is forleaders who find themselves with
(00:58):
change thrust upon them and whomaybe aren't completely on
board yet, but need to be fortheir organization.
And so you're a leader, you'reresponsible for rolling out a
change in your organization.
(01:20):
You're not quite sure about it.
How do you go about rollingthat out anyway, and is it
different if that change iscoming from an internal or an
external source?
Tammy (01:34):
So Karman ,, I actually love this question, and I love
it because it is happening inevery industry, in every company
, to every person with a titleinside of an organization, to
every frontline employee.
Change, whether we like it ornot, is being thrust upon us,
(01:59):
and is thrust upon us in waysthat is uncomfortable for many.
Even folks who are change ready, like, who enjoy change,
oftentimes feel as if, you know,this stuff is being thrown on
top of their shoulders all ofthe time.
So it's an important thing totalk about and I think there's
(02:24):
this impression sometimes insideof an organization that you
know, if I, if only I was incharge, if only I could be the
person making the decisions, youknow, then we would be making
you know, quote, unquote betterdecisions, right, and there is
(02:46):
kind of this fallacy thatsomewhere someone is completely
and totally in charge and theyare, you know, they are all
powerful, they get to make allthese decisions and everything
is fine, and they want to be inthat seat.
And what's really reallyinteresting is, no matter if you
really look, even the CEO,president of an organization,
(03:07):
traditionally has a board, OK,but even if you're in that
particular spot, you knowthere's always state, federal,
county regulations, right,there's, there's laws and
there's stuff that happens, andso the fact of the matter is is
that every single person, nomatter what seat, that you're in
, change is thrust on you thatyou have nothing to say about
(03:29):
and just kind of getting yourarms around that that, even as
much as you want to be incontrol, the fact of the matter
is there's a whole bunch ofstuff that we can't and do not
have the ability to control, andit's really like just kind of
sit in that for a moment.
No, you don't need the nexttitle, right?
There's always going to bechange.
(03:51):
That is thrust upon you, right?
No matter what.
Scott (03:55):
And it's remembering that we're all in quote in the
middle right.
As you talk about change, Ialways think about what you know
people.
You say well, the only thingyou have to do is pay taxes to
die, right?
Well, I would argue, you don'thave to pay taxes.
There just comes consequences.
If you look at kind of the rateof change, if you think kind of
in chunks of five years at atime okay.
(04:29):
So if you think from 2005 to2010, it got about twice as fast
Between 2010 and 2020, fourtimes as fast.
If we look at between 2020 andnow, it's even twice as fast
since 2010.
(04:52):
Well, since 2010, it's fivetimes as fast.
Since 2020, it's twice as fastas it was.
It is being projected that itis going to be almost 15 to 20
times the rate of change by like2030, 2035.
Think about that.
Tammy (05:13):
Yeah, and if we think, even I think about even just AI,
yeah, what has happened with AIsince we first started talking
about it today?
Right, I mean, it's like, areyou, are you kidding me?
(05:35):
You know, like, what I can thisAI will do.
Fill in the blank, right, Imean, that wasn't even in my
like brain.
You're right and I?
This is stupid, but I wasStrange New Worlds is a
television show.
It's a takeoff of Star Trekthat is out there and my husband
is a Star Trek fan and we werewatching it last night and they
had someone who had a medicalthing.
They said to the computer hey,if we were to do this, tell us,
(06:00):
you know, run the diagnosticsand tell us what the opportunity
of success is.
Right, and I'm watching this inStrange New World and realizing
that we can do that today withAI.
Right, it's just like, andthere was a time period when
that was like futuristic andit's not futuristic anymore.
It's actually in our ownbackyard and that's kind of the
(06:21):
changes that we're talking about.
Scott (06:45):
And that's kind of the changes that we're talking about
.
It's like, you know, this wasstuff that we watched as kids,
right, that we thought wouldnever happen.
That is absolutely happeningtoday and it's happening in a
way that, you know, it looksjust like how we imagined the
future.
It's kind of a weird thing, ormaybe it was in place and like
it was just held back andreleased just so like things on
TV could be predictions and bemade true.
I don't know, like I'm not surewhich.
Tammy (06:56):
I don't know.
Conspiracy theory.
Scott (06:58):
Yeah.
Tammy (06:59):
Right.
Scott (07:00):
So then it really then becomes and personally I think
about this often that you know,as leaders, how do we lead and
plan for the change.
That has become super importantas individuals.
Again, whether we're leaders, aleader in the middle, somewhere
(07:21):
top of the organization, bottom,like to me, it doesn't matter.
How are you making changecomfortable?
Like how are you looking at this?
And like not being frozen whensomething changes and being
curious and and I'm not sayinglet's just blindly accept, but
(07:43):
look at what's good about that,what's potential risky about
that, how can I adapt in thatsituation and there's probably
decisions in there to why weeven want to live with this,
which might mean I don't want tolive this, I can't accept this
and I'm gonna go find a new jobbecause at the end, like to me,
at the end of the day, if you'renot making the decision and you
(08:05):
, it's something you need to door have to do because that's
your role.
Your job in that moment isaccept and align or get out,
which is hard.
Now I'm being harsh, okay.
Now, that doesn't mean blindly,that doesn't mean let's go do a
bunch of illegal shit.
That just means, like I do haveto look at this reasonably, and
(08:25):
as a leader, I need to do whatI can to make it as clear and as
thoughtful as I can, but inboth cases it just isn't.
Tammy (08:34):
You know, Scott, you said something and I'm going to take
it back.
Karman (08:37):
Right.
Tammy (08:39):
Kind of unfold it, what the questions that you were
asking were analysis questions,oh for sure, yeah, and and one
of the things that to help us tomake change comfortable, let's
go back to your, to your phrase,right, when we actually put
that analysis hat on, right,what's what's good about this
(09:02):
idea?
What are my concerns about thisidea?
How could I overcome thoseconcerns?
What could we do to make thisas painless as possible?
Right, what you haveeffectively done is you've moved
into the logic side of yourbrain.
Most of us are in this emotionalside of the brain when those
(09:24):
changes come.
Right, we are feeling thefeelings.
When we go to analysis, westart thinking the thinking, and
that actually helps us problemsolve.
Now, whether I like it or not,that's the emotion, it's the hey
, what can I do about that?
That's the place where we takecontrol again.
(09:46):
That's the place where we getto make decisions, that's the
place where we can get our feetplanted, and that thing is
actually the action that isgoing to help us move forward.
So, when we're in this placeand I don't like it feeling
emotion right In that space, itis the action of moving it into
(10:10):
analysis and thinking about itthat can make us find that spot.
So how do I do that?
Well, if this has been thrustupon me by quote unquote top of
the organization, okay, that's,put my analysis hat on.
Go back and say help meunderstand.
I don't quite get how we got tothis conclusion.
(10:32):
My concern is so this thingthat I'm concerned about how
could we go about addressingthat?
These are analysis questionsthat you can have a dialogue
with upper management about, notin a way that says you're doing
this flippity, flippity wrong,but in a way that says I am
doing my best to try to figureout how to implement it.
(10:54):
So I'm asking some questions sothat I have the information
that I need, so that when myteam asks me the questions that
I need, so that when my teamasks me the questions, I am
supporting you.
Because the place that we screwup is when we haven't gotten
the information, done, theanalysis, and we take all of
(11:15):
that emotion and we push it downto that next level and we let
them start wallowing in thatthis isn't right emotion, okay.
So if we can, in that moment,just take a beat and say I'm
feeling this, okay, that's great.
Now let's ask the questions.
And if I can ask thosequestions up so that I get the
(11:37):
information, if I can't ask thequestions here before I start to
infect everybody else.
Because you know we've talkedabout this before how weird it
is to have these titles and havepeople like look at us and
defer to us.
It doesn't matter if you're ateam lead, a supervisor, a
manager, a director or a vicepresident.
(11:58):
You infect others, and so youhave to think about the fact
that you have a responsibilityto not infect them.
Therefore, you have to manageyourself before you just go
ahead and infect everybody elsebecause of that responsibility
in that space.
So, going from get out of theemotion, going into the logic,
(12:21):
asking the questions or askingyourself the questions before
you push that through theorganization, it will save you
so much grief later on.
But if you're reactive, ifyou're not thinking, if you are
reactive in those moments, youactually make it a bigger issue
and the change becomes morepainful for everyone and lasts
(12:42):
longer.
So that analysis, scott, Iloved what you said Start
thinking, put the thinking capon and start asking questions
and start problem solving, and Ithink it's easy for me.
Scott (12:54):
I'm generally pretty change ready, number one, and I
don't have a way to say thiswithout making it sound super
elitistical and that I don'tintend it that way.
But you know we can have somefun with it.
Tammy (13:07):
So I will beat you up later.
Scott (13:09):
Yeah, that's OK.
Yeah, yeah, it's one of it's.
Just think last week.
This is one of the traits.
That is glorious and a pain inthe ass.
Ok, yep, in the end, I processinformation really pretty
quickly.
Tammy (13:22):
You are so fast, Scott.
Scott (13:27):
And so part of that is many times I see the angles and
lots of perspectives which I canget on board with things pretty
quickly.
Now I also know the downside ofthat is it becomes frustrating
for me to then have to oh my God, we have to talk through this
37,000 more times.
(13:48):
For some people Like that canbe super annoying for me.
Tammy (13:53):
And you're impatient with that.
I am impatient with that.
I mean super impatient withthat, and I know that, yeah, you
push it out to others.
Scott (14:00):
And I know that, yeah, you pushed it out to others.
There's a piece of this that wealso have to look at it, and was
just doing a leadership sessionlast week talking about your
what's your multiplier andthinking of change or how long
something will take, as, thehigher you go in the
organization, as you go from oh,I'm a frontline supervisor and
(14:22):
then maybe I'm a manager or adirector of you know, whatever
your titles are you becomelayers removed and your
multiplier has to get bigger.
Now what I mean by multiplierhere when you're talking about
changes bigger.
Now what I mean by multiplierhere when you're talking about
changes, how long will it takefor someone to accept it or get
on board with it?
You might think, oh, a day.
Okay, I can tell you mymultiplier is 20 to 30, which
(14:47):
means, if I think a day, itreally means 20 to 30 days For
someone else, for someone elseand that doesn't mean they're 20
to 30 times slower than me.
It's like no, that just meansthat that's probably how long it
will take them go through theanalysis process and to go
(15:07):
through all of these things.
Tammy (15:11):
And we forget this I'm laughing because I'm
thinking about an organizationthat we worked, we still work
with, right and we rolled out ahuge change.
I remember how many months youspent talking with the senior
team to help them make thedecisions right.
And let's just say it was.
(15:32):
I think it was like four tofive months that you actually
worked with the senior team andthey made some decisions and
they were like, okay, we'regoing to roll it out and we'll
roll it down to that next leveland you know we'll have a
meeting and then they'll roll itdown to the next level.
And we were like, uh-uh, yougot to let that next level roll
(15:52):
around in it.
And they were like, why?
And they were like, it's soclear.
Well, yeah, it was clear,because the senior, the
executive team, spent like fourmonths working it out and having
all these conversations.
None of those conversations werelike the rest of the
organization was not privy tothat.
And so here it is.
(16:12):
And they were just like, well,we'll tell them and they'll be
fine.
Well, we brought it down tothat next level and we'll call
that level director level, right, and that director level.
And I remember because I wasworking with the director level
Scott, you were with the seniorlevel, I was working with the
director level and they werelike struggling and working.
Right Now I have to be honestwith you.
(16:33):
The senior team did a prettygood job of explaining things
and answering questions and allthat kind of stuff, but that
director level reallyinteresting.
It took them about six weeks toget their arms around it and
not even all of them got theirarms around it in that six-week
time.
Scott (16:47):
Well, and I can tell you, I can remember the day it was
announced, there were a handfulof directors that for that
entire day because it wassupposed to be a like a work
session the entire day therewere a couple directors.
They were frozen, they couldnot get out, they could not Like
(17:07):
, they were like they were.
They basically contributednothing.
Now, I have to give one one ofthem were at least had the
awareness to say I'm strugglinghere and I know that I'm
struggling.
They were able to verbalizethat, which to me is great.
That's okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
But for me it's so weird towatch people be so frozen.
(17:30):
I can't fathom being thatfrozen.
I mean, I shared with you Bethis traveling, okay, so I'm
taking care of the horses.
I didn't realize we have tochain the gate because they're
smart enough to open the damngate.
Okay, so I'm half a pastureaway and I look and I see two
(17:50):
horses in our front lawn and allI'm thinking was, if they get
up to the road, this is bad.
Okay, now, yes, it's.
I had a little stress in thatmoment, okay, so I run to the
garage and I'm like okay, whatdo I do?
Like and just like centermyself just for a second Cause
(18:11):
you could get really easy to befrozen, like, like, okay, how do
I get them from the yard backto the pasture?
I'm like, oh, food, they willfollow me for food.
And so I dumped a little foodon the ground and one just stood
there and ate it and the otherone I lured in with the food in
the in a feed bucket, put themin, went back, let that finish
(18:35):
and she followed me in like nobig deal.
Tammy (18:39):
Yeah, in that moment it would be really easy to just
freeze and say Well, and that'sthe research in all of this says
right, we freeze, we run away,flight, we fight or we appease.
I mean, that's like here is thenatural thing that happens.
And that's what we forget inthis change.
(19:02):
Is that in that moment, pleaseknow, those are all that emotion
side.
They're in that emotion,they're in that fear spot right
In their brain, in that space.
It is our job to recognize that.
We have to let people workthese things out, and that
doesn't just happen in ananosecond.
(19:23):
And Scott, those directors, theyworked at this and they had
conversations and they, you know, and I think it was about a
full quarter for those directorsand again, not all of them got
to it in a full quarter, but Ithink that's about the amount of
time that it took them, which,by the way, was about the same
amount of time that the seniorleaders took to make the
(19:44):
decisions.
And once those directors wereon board, now we're pushing it
down to staff.
They don't really have a lot offolks that are managers or
supervisors underneath that, sothey really were pushing it down
to staff at that next level.
I remember them, the directors,then coming back and saying why
are these folks so resistant,right, because it was like they
(20:06):
had thought it through and itwas now so clear to them and
they were ready to go.
They had staff that the vastmajority came on board again in
about a quarter, okay, but theyhad a year later a couple of
holdouts right, that just werenot going to let go of that
particular space.
(20:27):
And it is this piece ofremembering that, in change, if
folks don't feel in control, iffolks don't get to the place
where they get to make somedecisions and move some things
forward, if they are not askingthe question and getting into
the logic side of their brain,they get stuck.
(20:48):
Some of them are just going tofreeze, some of them are going
to fight, some of them are goingto appease and some of them are
going to freeze.
Some of them are going to fight, some of them are going to
appease and some of them aregoing to run away.
And in fact that's what happensinside of an organization when
change comes.
The question is are you, as aleader, going to help them
through those four stages andget them to stay in the fold, or
(21:11):
are those four responses tochange the things that then
divides us and them?
And in the end, if we're makingorganizational changes, whether
it is our choice or on theoutside, we don't want to lose
our great staff.
If we lose staff, that's notgreat.
Maybe that's the bonus ofchange.
(21:31):
However, the staff that we wantto keep, those are the folks
that I think it makes sense forus to put the effort and energy
in to get them out of thoseplaces where they are stuck and
move them forward.
And again, best way to do thatlogic analysis, options,
alternatives and allow them tohave a place where they are in
(21:55):
control of something in themidst of that change, so that
they feel that they'recontributing.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.