April 24, 2025 • 22 mins
Are you constantly putting out fires at work? That's not a leadership strategy—it's a symptom.
Ever worked in an organization where crisis mode is the default setting? Where teams pride themselves on their ability to "turn on a dime," order late-night pizza, and heroically save the day at the eleventh hour? While this firefighting culture might feel exhilarating and even create a sense of camaraderie, it masks deeper leadership problems that ultimately damage your organization's health and sustainability.
At its core, the firefighting syndrome stems from two fundamental leadership failures: lack of clarity about what success looks like, and insufficient accountability systems. When leaders can't articulate clear expectations or resort to "I'll know it when I see it" feedback, they force their teams into endless cycles of rework and last-minute scrambles. Even worse, organizations often inadvertently reinforce this behavior by celebrating the heroes who "stayed up all night" rather than those who delivered quality work through consistent, measured progress.
Breaking free from a firefighting culture requires a significant shift in leadership approach. Rather than asking vague questions like "How's it going?", effective leaders request to see work in progress with questions like "Show me where you're at." This simple change creates transparency, enables early course correction, and prevents the procrastination that leads to crisis. Taking a page from agile development methodologies, this iterative approach actually reduces overall work by approximately 20% while producing better outcomes.
The maturity of your organization depends on your ability to evolve beyond emergency mode. While startups may thrive on adrenaline and rapid pivots, sustained success requires processes that value outcomes over activities, clarity over chaos, and sustainable pacing over burnout. What kind of culture are you building?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Scott (00:04):
Hola Karmen.
Tammy (00:07):
Good morning Karmen.
Karman (00:09):
I am going to France later this summer and I need to
start practicing my Frenchbecause I have zero French.
So next time, bonjour, carmenBonjour.
I can't say that.
Bonjour, Karmen, bonjour.
I can't say that this listenerswill be doubling now as your
Duolingo, as well as theleadership line.
Tammy (00:33):
There you go.
Learn French from Karmen.
Karman (00:37):
Just learn how to say hello in 25 languages.
So, scott and Tammy, last weekwe talked a little bit about
reverse delegation, and one ofthe things that came up during
that conversation was whathappens when your organization
(00:58):
or your team has a culture whereeverything's an emergency and
we all get to put ourfirefighter hats on and run
around in circles.
And it reminded me of a clientthat I used to work with, a very
famous client who you wouldhave seen on television, and
(01:23):
this was an organization.
Scott (01:25):
Was it Freddy Krueger?
Karman (01:27):
It was not Freddy Krueger Dang it.
Tammy (01:30):
People don't run around in circles when Freddy's around.
Karman (01:33):
No, they just run.
Scott (01:35):
I don't know, you guys haven't seen the movies.
Karman (01:40):
You called it, scott.
I have not seen the movie, meneither, but this particular
team was like always behind,always like trying to play catch
up, always changing their mindalways, and they really prided
themselves on being able to turnon a dime and like loved this
(02:02):
culture they'd created where weall pitch in when we have to.
And tonight, tonight, we'rejust going to like all order
pizza and we're staying untilit's done tonight, and there
were places for that, obviously.
But this particular team hadlet it like we only operate in
(02:25):
emergency mode, and I'm sureTammy and Scott, you guys have
encountered teams like this.
So my question, I guess, islike how do you realize if
that's your team, if this is aculture that you've created, and
how do you get out of that?
Tammy (02:45):
You know, there are some people who never get out of it
and in fact it's what they likeand it's what they prefer and
they create it.
I had a business partner.
This was the way that she lovedto work.
(03:07):
She loved to have a major issuein front of her right at that
moment and just run at it andrun at it hard right.
That was how she reallypreferred to work.
And there are companies thatactually take people like that
and when they're in they have amess somewhere, they drop them
(03:29):
in, kind of like hey, put aparachute on them, fly over,
drop in the firefighter, let thefirefighter fight the battle
right, and when it's over theypick them up and take them to
the next drop site.
Karman (03:38):
So I want you to know it's pretty rewarding.
I could see it would be prettyrewarding.
Tammy (03:51):
Yep, and for some folks, that's the world that they
prefer.
An individual is very differentfrom a team or an organization,
right?
If we have a team that actsthis way or an organization that
acts this way, there are somereally dire long-term
consequences.
Scott (04:06):
It is a question of if you're the leader or the owner
of that organization.
Is that what you want?
So I think that is, to me, isalways the first question.
I worked for an organizationthat I believe that is what they
wanted and they created thatthrough different means and it
was, I believe, to this day.
It was purposeful and I'm notsaying that's right or wrong?
(04:27):
I'm just saying that was theirchoice and they created that
environment to push and drivechange.
Tammy (04:34):
And they would say that they were successful.
Oh, sure, and from an outsideperspective.
If you looked at their numbers,they're still in business right
, they're still growing, they'restill attracting customers,
profitable.
Scott (04:56):
All of the things that many people would look.
When you look at a business,you would say that's a
successful business.
Tammy (05:01):
So you have to kind of go all right, this is their
business model, okay, and andwhen.
Scott (05:11):
Typically, if you start to think about the consequences
that has, that will attract acertain persona and people will
like that and people who don'tlike that will churn and churn
pretty significantly.
Tammy (05:26):
Yeah, and if you all don't know what churn is, it
means turnover right, turnoverright, and it's like this spot,
and the fact is is that cultureis so unique and and like it's
really geared towards a certainkind of human being, and
sometimes a certain age humanbeing.
If you want to know the truth,yeah, because as you get older
(05:47):
as I, as I know, as you getolder, it's much harder to run
that fast.
Scott (05:52):
Yeah, and, and so I think the first part is is that what
you want?
And, ideally, you thought aboutwhy do you want that?
And you have to then be okaywith the consequences of that.
And you have to then be okaywith the consequences of that
Right, that churn, that turnover, et cetera.
Okay, now if we set that asideand most organizations I know do
(06:15):
not want that, that is nottheir preferred mode.
So then you have to start tolook at, well, what is creating
that and why are we allowingthat?
When I think about it, Iactually think there's two or
three core reasons that happens.
I'm not clear as a leader aboutwhere we're going and why, and
(06:41):
I'm not holding peopleaccountable to executing and
getting results.
Period.
I really think it is that clear.
Tammy (06:50):
Scott, I haven't thought about it like that, and so let
me just take a beat and let methink about that, okay, the
first one of those absolutelyapplied to this client.
Karman (06:59):
So.
Tammy (07:00):
Yeah, I think one of the things and that's an interesting
piece, right, because the placethat I have seen this with
another client is we sendsomeone off to do something,
they come back with, quoteunquote, a product right, a
(07:21):
draft, and it's not in the realmof what the leader wanted.
It's not in the realm of whatthe leader wanted.
And sometimes I think and Ithink it does fit into your
category they didn't articulateit or they truly didn't know.
And I remember I had a boss who, when I asked, I said well,
(07:43):
help me understand what you'relooking for.
And I was asking questions andhe said I'll know it when I see
it.
Well, if you have this thing asa boss that says I know what
good looks like, I know whatsuccess is when I see it, then
you have staff that isconstantly running around trying
to please you and I will tellyou in that environment.
(08:06):
When that boss said that to me,it demotivated me.
It didn't motivate me.
It demotivated me because I waslike, well, I could probably do
this 18 times and still bringyou 18 iterations that aren't
hitting the mark because youdon't know yet and I'm not a
mind reader.
So, yeah, yeah, I think, scott,that first one, they don't know
(08:29):
, they haven't taken the time tothink about it.
Scott (08:34):
Yeah, they haven't thought about it or they haven't
thought about the why I stillthink the feedback isn't clear.
Like going back and forth 18times is kind of ridiculous,
because now we're just playingthe guessing game.
Tammy (08:46):
Okay, exactly, and I've seen, I'm not sure, maybe it
kind of ridiculous, because nowwe're just playing the guessing
game.
Scott (08:49):
Okay, exactly, and I've seen, I'm not sure, maybe it
kind of looks like this, andthen let's look at that and in
my, in my experience, you shouldbe able, as soon as you see
that can you describe what youlike and what you don't like,
and where do you tweak it?
And ideally, ideally, you're atleast halfway there.
Tammy (09:12):
Well, I think one of the great things of what you just
said, one it would be reallygreat as a boss if you could
take a beat and really thinkabout what success looks like.
I was with a group yesterday.
We were planning a workshop,and I said let's just have a
conversation.
What does success look like foryou?
(09:34):
One idea of what success lookslike on a post it note?
And I had, oh gosh, 12 or soleaders in a room and they that
was hard for them to do becausethey're running all the time.
They're not thinking what isthe outcome I want?
(09:54):
And that is starting with theend in mind.
I need to, as a leader, have avery clear picture of what it
looks like.
Now, sometimes I don't know, andif I can say I don't know, then
one of the pieces like I'm notsure let's, why don't you give
me something to work with, andthen together we'll talk it
through and we'll make it better.
(10:16):
That's a completely differentthing than go do, and I don't
have a clear picture about whatgood, excellent success looks
like.
And I do think that that is abig reason why we have
firefighting, because we keeprunning towards the end without
understanding what the end is.
So that's of your first one,right?
(10:39):
That makes sense to me.
Okay, I think there's also onethat's maybe Scott, it's the
same thing, but it's the thesame thing.
But it's the middle manager andit's the middle manager caught
between a rock and a hard place.
Upper management says they wantthis.
Middle manager understands andruns for it.
(11:00):
Upper management changes themind, something else happened,
and so sometimes we do get intoa firefighting situation in the
middle of an organization whenupper management shifts.
Okay, is that the same thing asyour first option?
Scott (11:18):
I think that's the same.
I wasn't clear About where ithappens, about what good looks
like or whatever that is.
And again some people say shitchanges all the time.
Yeah, okay, we might learnsomething that we didn't know.
That doesn't mean I wasn'tclear at the beginning.
Right, that just meanssomething changed, like okay,
(11:40):
kind of deal with it.
Tammy (11:43):
Sometimes we have another client who is bound by some
federal regulations andsometimes federal regulators
walk in the door and say I needthis and I have to have it by
Thursday.
Right, you know, now we have anoutside entity who has created
chaos.
(12:03):
Now what I have seen happen isthese outside entities come in,
they create chaos, we run around, we get it done.
Then we reward everybody Highfives, woohoo, we got that done.
Great.
Staff sometimes starts to say,okay, I saw that and they got
high fives.
So if I run around and then Itell people that I ran around
(12:27):
and I explain, I mean, oh man,and then at the last minute I
blah, blah and it was like youdid great, then we start
reinforcing this thing that wascreated and all of a sudden we
think that's how I get rewarded.
Right, that's I like that.
I like all the attention, Ilike the fact that people you
know stayed up all night and didall the stuff.
(12:48):
And and that's the other waythat I do see it happen is that
it becomes a habit because itwas reward.
Scott (12:55):
And in my mind that I would put that in category two,
accountability Cause.
It's cause.
That could be what.
How do you reward it?
Or how do you?
You know what is thatconsequence?
Good or bad?
And it reminds me I canremember a staff member.
They had a project.
We were supposed to review itthe next day, tomorrow, and
(13:16):
they're like, well, I'm notquite ready.
And they were hinting at that.
They would like to move it.
And I said, well, let's justplan.
You know, we have time setaside at 830 tomorrow morning.
You know we have time set asideat 830 tomorrow morning.
Let's just see where you are.
Like I wasn't going to budgeand he came back and he's like
the next morning is like youknow, I stayed up all night and
(13:39):
like he was trying to lay thismartyr thing on it and I said,
and it was crap.
Now I didn't say it was crap tohim.
I said, hey, this isn't goodenough, this is not what we
agreed on.
And then we had a wholeconversation about staying up
(14:00):
all night is not my goal for you.
Do you know?
You have had four months to dothis and you come to me the day
before and say, oh, and we'vebeen talking about it and you've
been telling me oh yeah, I'mmaking good progress, I feel
really good about what I have.
And you didn't show, you didn'tgive me any indication of what
(14:22):
you were working on, because youwanted to come and say ta-da.
And now you've said ta-da, andit's crap, I will.
Are you, as a leader, havingthose conversations?
Tammy (14:31):
and asking the question early.
Show me where you're at right.
Yeah, how's it going?
See, that's the.
That another shift.
It's the thing where a leadersays how's it going, it's great.
Scott (14:43):
Well, oh, we're making progress.
Tammy (14:45):
Yeah, you know we're right on track.
Okay, Now change your questionleader.
Show me where you're at.
Scott (14:52):
Okay, hey, let's take a look at it.
Tammy (14:54):
Yeah, let's take a're getting it more and, by the way,
you don't always know, as aleader, what good looks like.
Okay, and this gets you achance to go.
Oh, now that I see this, itmeans that.
Now that I see that, it meansthis.
So it's just changing a littlebit of language.
Scott (15:14):
Yeah, and that is the foundational principle of agile
software development Correct, weiterate.
It's one of the principle ofagile software development
Correct, we do, we, we iterate,we, we it's.
You know, one of the 14 pieceson the agile manifesto is um,
get it in front of the customerearly and often, and I'm
probably butchering exactly whatit reads, but it really is hey,
(15:37):
react to this.
What do you like, what do younot like, what would you change?
And what you find out is youactually get it done faster and
the research around it says youactually do about 20% less work.
Tammy (15:51):
Yep, yeah, doing it that way, and the perfectionist in
all of us oftentimes wants tobring something of beauty to the
table.
Okay, and the language?
And this is Tammy Rogers' badlanguage, hey, just throw some
shit on paper and bring it to me.
Okay, because, honestly, like,take your first thoughts, put it
(16:13):
on paper, and when you do that,I'm not looking at your first
thoughts and thinking you're anidiot.
I'm looking at the firstthoughts and going, okay, this
is really helpful.
I know what I was thinking.
This is what they're thinking.
What does that mean?
How do we move it forward?
And how?
I hadn't thought about this.
This portion of this was reallysmart.
Okay, they don't know thisportion of it.
(16:34):
Let's talk about that.
So what happens in that spot isit gives us it's like a draft,
give me a draft, and then we canpush off together and we will
make it better and we will, youknow, sharpen it up, shine it
like, make it so much betterbecause we iterate.
And and, scott, okay, I gotta,I have to confess I, especially
(16:59):
in my early career, I alwayswould tell people how hard I
worked.
I would tell people how manyhours I worked, weekends, I
worked at night, I killed myselfto get this thing done and you
use the word martyr.
Other people have told me thatI had that little problem.
I come from a family that has alittle bit of that problem.
(17:21):
Had that little problem.
I come from a family that has alittle bit of that problem, but
that is another place that wesee is a signal of maybe you got
someone who has thisfirefighting syndrome where they
will tell you and explain andlay out all the hard work that
they had to do to get there.
Okay, and you're right.
Most of those folksprocrastinated until the very
(17:44):
last minute and then wanted tobe applauded for putting in the
effort at the last minuteinstead of putting in the effort
slowly and steadily over thetimeframe that they were given.
And that is an accountabilityissue and it needs to be weeded
out of your staff.
It needs to be weeded out ofyour staff.
Scott (18:02):
It needs to be weeded out of your staff and yourself.
Tammy (18:04):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Karman (18:07):
And maybe your processes .
Scott (18:10):
Absolutely, and maybe how you have things structured or
how you function reinforcesthose things.
Tammy (18:17):
Last minute, and we see this all the time with strategic
planning.
We do strategic planning at thebeginning of the year.
Everybody gets their goals andtheir initiatives.
Who's going to be doing what?
They put together this wholeproject plan, and this will be
done by May, this will be doneby July, this will be done in
September, and the companydoesn't think anything about it
(18:37):
until about mid-October, firstof November, and everybody goes
back and goes crap, what did Isay I was going to have done by
the end of the year?
And then they try to jam all oftheir strategic initiatives
into the last four to six weeksof the year and then nothing
gets done.
Scott (18:52):
No, we need a process where we can see where we're at
along the lines and maturingthat process, so that you're not
looking at and rewardingactivity, that we are rewarding
the outcome or hitting whateverthe definition of success is.
Tammy (19:13):
Yeah, the milestones that again are not activity
milestones.
We can have progress in thatparticular.
Scott (19:19):
Because what happens is people talk about it as oh yeah,
we had 13 meetings and we didthis and we're planning and
we're doing all like a wholebunch of shit.
That really does, Frankly, itmatters, it's important.
Okay, Project managers are likerolling over in their grave
right now but what's the outputfrom those 13 meetings?
Yeah, what's the outcome If you,you know, are you supposed to
(19:41):
be building something?
Are you supposed to be whatever?
That is At the end.
I really, if you took you twomeetings or 202 meetings, if you
haven't hit the outcome, youdidn't perform period.
Tammy (19:55):
And that's the piece, and sometimes even in our meetings,
what are we meeting for?
If it's just meeting to rehash,if it's just meeting to talk
about where we're at versus whatis the output, the outcome,
something that's tangible, thatwe can look at and say this is
(20:16):
what we got, and it may be adecision Okay, it's an important
reason to have a meeting, butprogress meetings kill yourself,
right?
So in that space, it is one ofthose things.
So are we making movementtowards things?
Are we tracking it along theway?
Are we saying it's not okay toleave everything to the end and
we're asking the question showme where you're at.
(20:39):
Because firefighting okay, ifyou want that culture, that's
fine, but please know,firefighting burns people out,
firefighting only attracts acertain kind of employee and
that employee is restless, andso there's a thing about that
too.
To really understand the kindof culture that you'll have
(21:02):
there, and if you're looking foran organization that's a little
bit more mature in terms ofhaving processes that are
efficient and effective, waysthat we can deepen our
profitability by making fewermistakes and having fewer rework
and all that kind of stuff, ifyou're in that spot,
firefighting is not somethingthat's healthy for an
(21:25):
organization, startups they'reall firefighting, okay, and when
are you going to mature out ofthat and start reaping the
rewards of the maturedorganization?
That's a little bit furtheralong the line in that maturity
model.
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Scott (00:04):
Hola Karmen.
Tammy (00:07):
Good morning Karmen.
Karman (00:09):
I am going to France later this summer and I need to
start practicing my Frenchbecause I have zero French.
So next time, bonjour, carmenBonjour.
I can't say that.
Bonjour, Karmen, bonjour.
I can't say that this listenerswill be doubling now as your
Duolingo, as well as theleadership line.
Tammy (00:33):
There you go.
Learn French from Karmen.
Karman (00:37):
Just learn how to say hello in 25 languages.
So, scott and Tammy, last weekwe talked a little bit about
reverse delegation, and one ofthe things that came up during
that conversation was whathappens when your organization
(00:58):
or your team has a culture whereeverything's an emergency and
we all get to put ourfirefighter hats on and run
around in circles.
And it reminded me of a clientthat I used to work with, a very
famous client who you wouldhave seen on television, and
(01:23):
this was an organization.
Scott (01:25):
Was it Freddy Krueger?
Karman (01:27):
It was not Freddy Krueger Dang it.
Tammy (01:30):
People don't run around in circles when Freddy's around.
Karman (01:33):
No, they just run.
Scott (01:35):
I don't know, you guys haven't seen the movies.
Karman (01:40):
You called it, scott.
I have not seen the movie, meneither, but this particular
team was like always behind,always like trying to play catch
up, always changing their mindalways, and they really prided
themselves on being able to turnon a dime and like loved this
(02:02):
culture they'd created where weall pitch in when we have to.
And tonight, tonight, we'rejust going to like all order
pizza and we're staying untilit's done tonight, and there
were places for that, obviously.
But this particular team hadlet it like we only operate in
(02:25):
emergency mode, and I'm sureTammy and Scott, you guys have
encountered teams like this.
So my question, I guess, islike how do you realize if
that's your team, if this is aculture that you've created, and
how do you get out of that?
Tammy (02:45):
You know, there are some people who never get out of it
and in fact it's what they likeand it's what they prefer and
they create it.
I had a business partner.
This was the way that she lovedto work.
(03:07):
She loved to have a major issuein front of her right at that
moment and just run at it andrun at it hard right.
That was how she reallypreferred to work.
And there are companies thatactually take people like that
and when they're in they have amess somewhere, they drop them
(03:29):
in, kind of like hey, put aparachute on them, fly over,
drop in the firefighter, let thefirefighter fight the battle
right, and when it's over theypick them up and take them to
the next drop site.
Karman (03:38):
So I want you to know it's pretty rewarding.
I could see it would be prettyrewarding.
Tammy (03:51):
Yep, and for some folks, that's the world that they
prefer.
An individual is very differentfrom a team or an organization,
right?
If we have a team that actsthis way or an organization that
acts this way, there are somereally dire long-term
consequences.
Scott (04:06):
It is a question of if you're the leader or the owner
of that organization.
Is that what you want?
So I think that is, to me, isalways the first question.
I worked for an organizationthat I believe that is what they
wanted and they created thatthrough different means and it
was, I believe, to this day.
It was purposeful and I'm notsaying that's right or wrong?
(04:27):
I'm just saying that was theirchoice and they created that
environment to push and drivechange.
Tammy (04:34):
And they would say that they were successful.
Oh, sure, and from an outsideperspective.
If you looked at their numbers,they're still in business right
, they're still growing, they'restill attracting customers,
profitable.
Scott (04:56):
All of the things that many people would look.
When you look at a business,you would say that's a
successful business.
Tammy (05:01):
So you have to kind of go all right, this is their
business model, okay, and andwhen.
Scott (05:11):
Typically, if you start to think about the consequences
that has, that will attract acertain persona and people will
like that and people who don'tlike that will churn and churn
pretty significantly.
Tammy (05:26):
Yeah, and if you all don't know what churn is, it
means turnover right, turnoverright, and it's like this spot,
and the fact is is that cultureis so unique and and like it's
really geared towards a certainkind of human being, and
sometimes a certain age humanbeing.
If you want to know the truth,yeah, because as you get older
(05:47):
as I, as I know, as you getolder, it's much harder to run
that fast.
Scott (05:52):
Yeah, and, and so I think the first part is is that what
you want?
And, ideally, you thought aboutwhy do you want that?
And you have to then be okaywith the consequences of that.
And you have to then be okaywith the consequences of that
Right, that churn, that turnover, et cetera.
Okay, now if we set that asideand most organizations I know do
(06:15):
not want that, that is nottheir preferred mode.
So then you have to start tolook at, well, what is creating
that and why are we allowingthat?
When I think about it, Iactually think there's two or
three core reasons that happens.
I'm not clear as a leader aboutwhere we're going and why, and
(06:41):
I'm not holding peopleaccountable to executing and
getting results.
Period.
I really think it is that clear.
Tammy (06:50):
Scott, I haven't thought about it like that, and so let
me just take a beat and let methink about that, okay, the
first one of those absolutelyapplied to this client.
Karman (06:59):
So.
Tammy (07:00):
Yeah, I think one of the things and that's an interesting
piece, right, because the placethat I have seen this with
another client is we sendsomeone off to do something,
they come back with, quoteunquote, a product right, a
(07:21):
draft, and it's not in the realmof what the leader wanted.
It's not in the realm of whatthe leader wanted.
And sometimes I think and Ithink it does fit into your
category they didn't articulateit or they truly didn't know.
And I remember I had a boss who, when I asked, I said well,
(07:43):
help me understand what you'relooking for.
And I was asking questions andhe said I'll know it when I see
it.
Well, if you have this thing asa boss that says I know what
good looks like, I know whatsuccess is when I see it, then
you have staff that isconstantly running around trying
to please you and I will tellyou in that environment.
(08:06):
When that boss said that to me,it demotivated me.
It didn't motivate me.
It demotivated me because I waslike, well, I could probably do
this 18 times and still bringyou 18 iterations that aren't
hitting the mark because youdon't know yet and I'm not a
mind reader.
So, yeah, yeah, I think, scott,that first one, they don't know
(08:29):
, they haven't taken the time tothink about it.
Scott (08:34):
Yeah, they haven't thought about it or they haven't
thought about the why I stillthink the feedback isn't clear.
Like going back and forth 18times is kind of ridiculous,
because now we're just playingthe guessing game.
Tammy (08:46):
Okay, exactly, and I've seen, I'm not sure, maybe it
kind of ridiculous, because nowwe're just playing the guessing
game.
Scott (08:49):
Okay, exactly, and I've seen, I'm not sure, maybe it
kind of looks like this, andthen let's look at that and in
my, in my experience, you shouldbe able, as soon as you see
that can you describe what youlike and what you don't like,
and where do you tweak it?
And ideally, ideally, you're atleast halfway there.
Tammy (09:12):
Well, I think one of the great things of what you just
said, one it would be reallygreat as a boss if you could
take a beat and really thinkabout what success looks like.
I was with a group yesterday.
We were planning a workshop,and I said let's just have a
conversation.
What does success look like foryou?
(09:34):
One idea of what success lookslike on a post it note?
And I had, oh gosh, 12 or soleaders in a room and they that
was hard for them to do becausethey're running all the time.
They're not thinking what isthe outcome I want?
(09:54):
And that is starting with theend in mind.
I need to, as a leader, have avery clear picture of what it
looks like.
Now, sometimes I don't know, andif I can say I don't know, then
one of the pieces like I'm notsure let's, why don't you give
me something to work with, andthen together we'll talk it
through and we'll make it better.
(10:16):
That's a completely differentthing than go do, and I don't
have a clear picture about whatgood, excellent success looks
like.
And I do think that that is abig reason why we have
firefighting, because we keeprunning towards the end without
understanding what the end is.
So that's of your first one,right?
(10:39):
That makes sense to me.
Okay, I think there's also onethat's maybe Scott, it's the
same thing, but it's the thesame thing.
But it's the middle manager andit's the middle manager caught
between a rock and a hard place.
Upper management says they wantthis.
Middle manager understands andruns for it.
(11:00):
Upper management changes themind, something else happened,
and so sometimes we do get intoa firefighting situation in the
middle of an organization whenupper management shifts.
Okay, is that the same thing asyour first option?
Scott (11:18):
I think that's the same.
I wasn't clear About where ithappens, about what good looks
like or whatever that is.
And again some people say shitchanges all the time.
Yeah, okay, we might learnsomething that we didn't know.
That doesn't mean I wasn'tclear at the beginning.
Right, that just meanssomething changed, like okay,
(11:40):
kind of deal with it.
Tammy (11:43):
Sometimes we have another client who is bound by some
federal regulations andsometimes federal regulators
walk in the door and say I needthis and I have to have it by
Thursday.
Right, you know, now we have anoutside entity who has created
chaos.
(12:03):
Now what I have seen happen isthese outside entities come in,
they create chaos, we run around, we get it done.
Then we reward everybody Highfives, woohoo, we got that done.
Great.
Staff sometimes starts to say,okay, I saw that and they got
high fives.
So if I run around and then Itell people that I ran around
(12:27):
and I explain, I mean, oh man,and then at the last minute I
blah, blah and it was like youdid great, then we start
reinforcing this thing that wascreated and all of a sudden we
think that's how I get rewarded.
Right, that's I like that.
I like all the attention, Ilike the fact that people you
know stayed up all night and didall the stuff.
(12:48):
And and that's the other waythat I do see it happen is that
it becomes a habit because itwas reward.
Scott (12:55):
And in my mind that I would put that in category two,
accountability Cause.
It's cause.
That could be what.
How do you reward it?
Or how do you?
You know what is thatconsequence?
Good or bad?
And it reminds me I canremember a staff member.
They had a project.
We were supposed to review itthe next day, tomorrow, and
(13:16):
they're like, well, I'm notquite ready.
And they were hinting at that.
They would like to move it.
And I said, well, let's justplan.
You know, we have time setaside at 830 tomorrow morning.
You know we have time set asideat 830 tomorrow morning.
Let's just see where you are.
Like I wasn't going to budgeand he came back and he's like
the next morning is like youknow, I stayed up all night and
(13:39):
like he was trying to lay thismartyr thing on it and I said,
and it was crap.
Now I didn't say it was crap tohim.
I said, hey, this isn't goodenough, this is not what we
agreed on.
And then we had a wholeconversation about staying up
(14:00):
all night is not my goal for you.
Do you know?
You have had four months to dothis and you come to me the day
before and say, oh, and we'vebeen talking about it and you've
been telling me oh yeah, I'mmaking good progress, I feel
really good about what I have.
And you didn't show, you didn'tgive me any indication of what
(14:22):
you were working on, because youwanted to come and say ta-da.
And now you've said ta-da, andit's crap, I will.
Are you, as a leader, havingthose conversations?
Tammy (14:31):
and asking the question early.
Show me where you're at right.
Yeah, how's it going?
See, that's the.
That another shift.
It's the thing where a leadersays how's it going, it's great.
Scott (14:43):
Well, oh, we're making progress.
Tammy (14:45):
Yeah, you know we're right on track.
Okay, Now change your questionleader.
Show me where you're at.
Scott (14:52):
Okay, hey, let's take a look at it.
Tammy (14:54):
Yeah, let's take a're getting it more and, by the way,
you don't always know, as aleader, what good looks like.
Okay, and this gets you achance to go.
Oh, now that I see this, itmeans that.
Now that I see that, it meansthis.
So it's just changing a littlebit of language.
Scott (15:14):
Yeah, and that is the foundational principle of agile
software development Correct, weiterate.
It's one of the principle ofagile software development
Correct, we do, we, we iterate,we, we it's.
You know, one of the 14 pieceson the agile manifesto is um,
get it in front of the customerearly and often, and I'm
probably butchering exactly whatit reads, but it really is hey,
(15:37):
react to this.
What do you like, what do younot like, what would you change?
And what you find out is youactually get it done faster and
the research around it says youactually do about 20% less work.
Tammy (15:51):
Yep, yeah, doing it that way, and the perfectionist in
all of us oftentimes wants tobring something of beauty to the
table.
Okay, and the language?
And this is Tammy Rogers' badlanguage, hey, just throw some
shit on paper and bring it to me.
Okay, because, honestly, like,take your first thoughts, put it
(16:13):
on paper, and when you do that,I'm not looking at your first
thoughts and thinking you're anidiot.
I'm looking at the firstthoughts and going, okay, this
is really helpful.
I know what I was thinking.
This is what they're thinking.
What does that mean?
How do we move it forward?
And how?
I hadn't thought about this.
This portion of this was reallysmart.
Okay, they don't know thisportion of it.
(16:34):
Let's talk about that.
So what happens in that spot isit gives us it's like a draft,
give me a draft, and then we canpush off together and we will
make it better and we will, youknow, sharpen it up, shine it
like, make it so much betterbecause we iterate.
And and, scott, okay, I gotta,I have to confess I, especially
(16:59):
in my early career, I alwayswould tell people how hard I
worked.
I would tell people how manyhours I worked, weekends, I
worked at night, I killed myselfto get this thing done and you
use the word martyr.
Other people have told me thatI had that little problem.
I come from a family that has alittle bit of that problem.
(17:21):
Had that little problem.
I come from a family that has alittle bit of that problem, but
that is another place that wesee is a signal of maybe you got
someone who has thisfirefighting syndrome where they
will tell you and explain andlay out all the hard work that
they had to do to get there.
Okay, and you're right.
Most of those folksprocrastinated until the very
(17:44):
last minute and then wanted tobe applauded for putting in the
effort at the last minuteinstead of putting in the effort
slowly and steadily over thetimeframe that they were given.
And that is an accountabilityissue and it needs to be weeded
out of your staff.
It needs to be weeded out ofyour staff.
Scott (18:02):
It needs to be weeded out of your staff and yourself.
Tammy (18:04):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Karman (18:07):
And maybe your processes .
Scott (18:10):
Absolutely, and maybe how you have things structured or
how you function reinforcesthose things.
Tammy (18:17):
Last minute, and we see this all the time with strategic
planning.
We do strategic planning at thebeginning of the year.
Everybody gets their goals andtheir initiatives.
Who's going to be doing what?
They put together this wholeproject plan, and this will be
done by May, this will be doneby July, this will be done in
September, and the companydoesn't think anything about it
(18:37):
until about mid-October, firstof November, and everybody goes
back and goes crap, what did Isay I was going to have done by
the end of the year?
And then they try to jam all oftheir strategic initiatives
into the last four to six weeksof the year and then nothing
gets done.
Scott (18:52):
No, we need a process where we can see where we're at
along the lines and maturingthat process, so that you're not
looking at and rewardingactivity, that we are rewarding
the outcome or hitting whateverthe definition of success is.
Tammy (19:13):
Yeah, the milestones that again are not activity
milestones.
We can have progress in thatparticular.
Scott (19:19):
Because what happens is people talk about it as oh yeah,
we had 13 meetings and we didthis and we're planning and
we're doing all like a wholebunch of shit.
That really does, Frankly, itmatters, it's important.
Okay, Project managers are likerolling over in their grave
right now but what's the outputfrom those 13 meetings?
Yeah, what's the outcome If you,you know, are you supposed to
(19:41):
be building something?
Are you supposed to be whatever?
That is At the end.
I really, if you took you twomeetings or 202 meetings, if you
haven't hit the outcome, youdidn't perform period.
Tammy (19:55):
And that's the piece, and sometimes even in our meetings,
what are we meeting for?
If it's just meeting to rehash,if it's just meeting to talk
about where we're at versus whatis the output, the outcome,
something that's tangible, thatwe can look at and say this is
(20:16):
what we got, and it may be adecision Okay, it's an important
reason to have a meeting, butprogress meetings kill yourself,
right?
So in that space, it is one ofthose things.
So are we making movementtowards things?
Are we tracking it along theway?
Are we saying it's not okay toleave everything to the end and
we're asking the question showme where you're at.
(20:39):
Because firefighting okay, ifyou want that culture, that's
fine, but please know,firefighting burns people out,
firefighting only attracts acertain kind of employee and
that employee is restless, andso there's a thing about that
too.
To really understand the kindof culture that you'll have
(21:02):
there, and if you're looking foran organization that's a little
bit more mature in terms ofhaving processes that are
efficient and effective, waysthat we can deepen our
profitability by making fewermistakes and having fewer rework
and all that kind of stuff, ifyou're in that spot,
firefighting is not somethingthat's healthy for an
(21:25):
organization, startups they'reall firefighting, okay, and when
are you going to mature out ofthat and start reaping the
rewards of the maturedorganization?
That's a little bit furtheralong the line in that maturity
model.
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