October 1, 2025 • 21 mins
Ever been handed “one more thing” and wondered whether pushing back would help you or haunt you? We dig into the real art of saying no at work—how to protect your bandwidth without damaging trust, and how to turn tense requests into clear decisions that move the right work forward. Along the way, we share the exact phrases that keep conversations calm, the questions that reveal hidden context, and the negotiation steps that map tradeoffs without sounding defensive.
We start by separating core responsibilities from additive requests and unpack why that distinction changes your next move. If the work is core, we talk about ownership and execution; if it’s additive, we show you how to probe for intent—stretch assignment, urgent fire drill, or visibility play—so you can assess risk and reward. Then we dive into tone and power dynamics: with a boss, ask permission before offering alternatives; with peers, redirect or delay while still being helpful; with direct reports, be clear and candid so they can succeed. You’ll hear simple scripts like “Help me understand why this, why now, and why us,” “Where does this fit among A, B, and C?,” and “If we prioritize this, X slips two weeks—acceptable?”
Expect practical tools you can use today: a fast mental checklist for on‑the‑spot decisions, ways to avoid over‑questioning that sounds like stonewalling, and a framework to document impacts so leaders can make informed calls. We also cover when a firm refusal is non‑negotiable—anything illegal, unethical, or harmful—and how to do that with professionalism. By the end, you’ll be able to choose among no, not yet, yes if, and yes—and know why each choice fits the moment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 00 (00:00):
Good morning, Scott and Tammy.
Good morning, Karman.
Speaker 02 (00:08):
I'm gonna I'm gonna mind this whole podcast.
Speaker 00 (00:11):
He's not gonna speak.
So, you know, he's just gonnado something.
But I will tell you that herethat will never last for long.
Scott cannot help himself.
He must comment.
It's bringing his whole self tothe table.
I've now left him a challengeand he's gonna see if he can not
speak.
You know, that's that's thewhole thing, right, Scott.
Speaker 01 (00:34):
He just typed into the chat challenge accepted.
So apparently this is gonna bethe Tammy show today.
Speaker 00 (00:41):
Which that's what people come to listen to anyway.
So let's just let's just tellthe truth.
They'd much rather listen to methan Scott.
We need to push Scott's buttonshere.
Speaker 01 (00:53):
I'm trying.
Yes, they're listening to Tammybecause they need something to
help them sleep.
Speaker 00 (01:04):
You know, Karman, if we don't read that, then he
doesn't get any energy fromthis.
So I think we should just lethim be and see how long he can
hold out when we continue toheckle him.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (01:16):
So last week we were talking about some of the newer
self-help books that you knowemphasize creating boundaries,
you know, putting yourselffirst.
If you haven't listened to it,it's a great conversation.
Um, but the during thatconversation, it made me think
(01:39):
about a time in my work when Iwas working on a new team and I
was working with a lot of newteams.
And the woman who ran thisparticular other team, really
great co-worker, somebody that Ireally admired and enjoyed.
(01:59):
And one day she was talkingabout some change that was
coming along or some um taskthat was gonna be transferred
from an old department, maybe toher department.
And she said in a meeting,like, I just told them we'd no,
we can't do that.
That you know, my team's notgonna do that.
(02:22):
And I inside I was like, shit,you can do that.
You can like say no to workthat your team can't handle,
like you can say no to yourboss, right?
It was like I didn't knowwhether to be in awe or to like
(02:44):
be sad for her because shewasn't gonna be around, and and
she's still at thatorganization.
I mean, she's really wellrespected.
So my question today is like,can you tell your boss no?
And are there ways to do it ornot do it?
Speaker 00 (03:05):
So, Karman, this is a phenomenal thing to talk
about, right?
Because I think that there isthis fear that if you say no,
okay, that you're gonna getfired.
And and I will tell you, Ithink that is in many
organizations is a reasonableassumption that if you tell your
(03:33):
boss no, that you are gonnasomehow or another be diminished
and worst case be fired, right?
So Scott worked for anorganization where the
philosophy was if you want to bepromoted, you had to uh go to
different locations.
And so when you get offeredthese different locations, if
(03:56):
you say no more than maybetwice, right, they're gonna stop
offering, right?
So, I mean, there's some truthto some of these things to
recognize that there is a costof saying no in that space.
Speaker 02 (04:12):
Oh, did you want me to talk?
Wait, now Tammy's gonna say, Iwon, I won.
I told you you could keepquiet.
Speaker 00 (04:20):
That's exactly leave enough silence and look at
Scott, and eventually he willspeak up.
So go for it.
Speaker 02 (04:27):
I have much longer willpower.
I just assumed, you know, weactually wanted to do a podcast
today.
Speaker 01 (04:35):
Outcomes.
Speaker 02 (04:36):
What was the outcome?
Speaker 00 (04:38):
Outcomes, just so you know.
I I didn't know.
Speaker 02 (04:41):
In Tammy's mind, her outcome was I won.
Speaker 01 (04:44):
Um you need to work on your imp imitation of Tammy,
Scott.
Oh, is that better?
Speaker 02 (04:55):
Oh, wasn't high pension enough yet?
Speaker 00 (04:58):
Actually, I have a pretty low voice for a moment.
Oh my god, I won.
I have a low voice for amoment.
Okay, Mr.
Bergmeyer, step in, keeptalking.
Speaker 02 (05:08):
I think we just have to say, are there things you
should absolutely say no to?
Yes.
Illegal, immoral, unethical.
Like, I don't think we'rereally talking about those kinds
of things.
Okay.
I, you know, then it's well,all right, what's the risk?
What's the reward of saying no?
And is it really about sayingno?
(05:30):
Or is it saying not right now,let's prioritize?
Is it like understanding whyare you, you know, what's the
context around the ask?
Because sometimes you might bebeing asked as a development, or
like, I don't want to say testbecause that sounds like wonky,
(05:51):
but it might be something tosay, hey, are you ready for this
next step of your growth oryour career?
And you're being, you know,you're being stretched.
Yeah, a stretch assignment.
And so I think it is taking thetime to process and think,
okay, why might I being askedand why me?
(06:15):
And okay, what's the impact ifI say yes?
What's the impact if I say no?
And or do I need to have aprioritization conversation?
And I think what happens isit's just my experience is
people fall on the they say noway too fast, or they say yes
way too fast without theconversation and context in
(06:38):
between.
And so, how do you take take abeat or take a moment to process
that?
And how do you get better atprocessing a little faster?
Because sometimes you might beasked in, like, oh, let me think
about that.
And you many times you don'thave days or weeks or months to
think about it.
Like, you might need to kind ofprocess kind of quickly.
Speaker 00 (06:59):
You know, Scott, I love that you bring that up
because I think I think there isthis polarization, like people
fall on one side of this or theother.
So if they're saying no, wetalk about that sometimes as
black hat thinkers, right?
They're like, no, no, no, no,no.
And then we have this personwho says yes, and we think about
(07:21):
them as, you know, yellow hatthinkers in this spot, like,
yeah, and they're happy andthey're hugging trees and they
believe in unicorns, right?
And I mean, there is a balance.
If you are as a human being,you naturally fall into one of
those two spots.
It's this place where it says,How do I come to a place where
(07:42):
there is more balance andthoughtfulness, intentionality,
right?
Instead of reactivity.
Those other two things arepeople are reacting to the
stimulus versus taking a beat.
And again, taking a beat,taking a moment to think about
it, like, how do you pause forjust a bit so that you can ask
(08:05):
some questions?
So I think the first part ofit, you're right.
Like when this opportunitycomes up, whatever that is that
they're trying to put on yourplate, it's asking questions.
Help me understand why me, whymy team.
Why do you think we would bebeneficial in that?
Okay.
Um, as we look at this, if welook at all the other things
that we do, how does it fit withthe prioritization?
(08:28):
Now, notice I'm not saying no,and notice I'm not talking about
it in even a negative way.
Those questions that I justasked were pretty neutral and
it's seeking to understand.
Speaker 02 (08:40):
Sometimes you need to answer, you need to ask
yourself those questions beforeyou ask those questions out
loud.
Because then tell me why.
So I want to assess if my bossis asking me to do something
that is my job, I I need tostart self-reflecting on why
does my boss have to ask me andwhy am I not just getting it
(09:00):
done?
Speaker 00 (09:01):
Okay, you just said something, right?
Speaker 02 (09:04):
So because I because this there's this piece of
like, okay, is it my job?
And oh shit, they're asking mebecause I'm not doing it or
there's something going on, andand my questions might need to
shift to oh, am I not deliveringthat in a way that is useful or
beneficial and do I need tochange, versus am I being asked
(09:25):
to do something that maybe isadditive, additive.
All right.
So I like some of these I needto look at myself first.
And I always think you shouldask those those questions for
yourself first.
Can you process and understand?
Because sometimes I might justsay to my boss, hey, this sounds
(09:46):
really important.
I'm thinking my priority shouldbe this thing, this thing, and
then the thing you're asking meto do because of this, this, and
this.
Does that seem right?
Because if because if you go tothe well, I'm just gonna ask
all these questions, I can tellyou in my experience as a
leader, depending on how theyask those questions, tone of
(10:07):
voice, I might interpret that asyou're trying to get out of it.
And so it's kind of like havingthis conversation is really
like, and so I'm not sayingdon't ask the questions, it's
just if you already know theanswer to these questions
because you have the context.
Oh, then don't ask then you'refast forwarding, right?
And so I think it's it'slooking at it and saying, All
(10:28):
right, I love these questions,and in my mind, it's a
checklist.
Do I know this?
Yes, do I know this?
Yes.
Oh, I don't know what prioritythis is.
Okay, now I need to start theconversation there.
Speaker 00 (10:42):
So what you said is really important, okay, because
you know, Karman's example isit's additive, okay?
It wasn't part of the job.
So I started with thatassumption, okay.
If it is not additive, if it'syour job, that's a totally
different set of questions.
Okay, just flat out, okay, inthat in that particular spot.
(11:04):
But if it's additive, I thinkthese questions make sense, but
Scott, you're right.
If you're asking them to try topush back, that's not the
intent of asking thosequestions.
unknown (11:16):
Right.
Speaker 00 (11:17):
So, what is your intent?
Is your intent to make surethat you have all the
information that you need sothat you can then analyze that
and and work through that anddecide how you want to respond?
Yeah, but if your intent is totell them that they're an F an
idiot, reality is that that'snever wise in any situation.
That is backing your boss intoa corner.
Speaker 02 (11:39):
And I don't even if they are an idiot.
Speaker 00 (11:42):
It is, and that is just not smarter wise because
they have power, right?
And you have to understand thatpower.
So you that's why you have toask these kinds of questions
with positive intents, with theright tone, with being in
neutral and with being curious.
Okay.
So, of course, you don't askquestions that you know the
(12:02):
answer to, you ask questionsthat you are unsure of the
answer or don't know.
So you're gaining information.
Okay.
And in that spot, I thinkthat's always wise if you are
doing that for the right reason.
In that spot, once you have abigger picture, then you have to
ask yourself the next set ofquestions.
(12:24):
The bigger picture may changeyour mind.
A broader perspective may makeyour first reaction be one that
you're like, well, I was sayingno, but I'm hearing that there's
benefit in this.
I'm hearing how this actuallyhelps my team.
I'm hearing how this wouldactually move the organization
forward, right?
(12:44):
So there is a chance in thisspot when you understand context
that you can get a morepositive reaction, you know,
like you're thinking this couldbe a good idea, or it could be
it reinforces your firstreaction, which was, hell no, I
don't want to do this.
This doesn't make any sense tome, right?
So let's just kind of fastforward and say, hey, you've
(13:06):
asked your questions and itstill doesn't make sense.
At least not to your brain.
I've asked my questions, I'veI've brought in my context, I've
listened to what my boss has tosay, and I still think it's a
bad idea.
Scott, do you remember when youand I first started working
together?
I wrote a program for yourcompany called How to Say No.
(13:29):
And I do remember that.
Speaker 02 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (13:31):
It it literally is a two-hour program about how to
say no.
And and there is an effectiveway to say no, okay?
Speaker 02 (13:42):
In yeah, without using those words, without
saying no.
Speaker 00 (13:46):
So, like, what are the ways that you can redirect?
I redirect and I say no withbosses differently than I
redirect and say no with staffand coworkers.
Okay.
And there is a reason for that.
Bosses have power, staff andco-workers don't have as much
(14:10):
power over me.
So I have two different ways.
So let's play with that forjust a minute.
Scott, if you as a boss, istelling your staff member no,
how do you know you've asked forsomething?
Okay.
How do you tell them reinforcethat no in a way that's
(14:32):
effective?
Speaker 02 (14:32):
Yeah, assuming it's a reasonable ask, I am, and it
depends on I'm gonna make adecision in that moment.
Is this the growth opportunity?
Or is this uh I just need to bea little more direct?
Okay, if I need to be a littlemore direct, I'm gonna say no,
or now's not the right time, andhere's why, or here's my
(14:54):
concerns.
Okay, if it's a growthopportunity, I'm going to spend
a bit more time and I'm going toask questions.
Questions such as help meunderstand what's the benefit of
that.
What else have you considered?
What research have you done tosay this is the best path versus
that is a better path?
And so again, I'm to me, thegrowth one may not be a no
(15:20):
immediately, because it may belike, yeah, we do have to solve
that or we do have to dosomething different there.
I just don't know that whatthey're bringing to the table is
the right thing.
And so we we need some moredata.
And so to me, I'm gonna makethat decision and I'm gonna go
path A or path B.
Speaker 00 (15:35):
I hear you.
Okay, and we're probablytalking about the same thing,
it's just uh it's the moment atthe end where it's like, I'm
sorry, the answer is going to bemy answer.
Speaker 02 (15:46):
Oh, yeah.
If if we're talking the moment,the moment at the end, then for
me, it's the no, and here'swhy.
Yeah, here's the context aroundwhy.
Speaker 00 (15:56):
And honestly, it's I I think there's this piece that
it's like, hey, I hear you,right?
So I want to let that staffmember know that I heard them,
that I even get theirreluctance.
Okay, and I'm gonna use thatword, I you know, in that spot.
So I hear you, and I hear thatreluctance, or I hear your
(16:17):
concerns.
And, and you know me, that's mymy connective phrase, and this
decision has been made.
This is why that decision hasbeen made.
So here's the context, andhere's what um, you know, here's
why that decision has been madeand how we're gonna have to
(16:39):
move forward.
I think being very forthrightwhen it's an employee is
critically important becauseit's honest, right?
I agree with that, and thenthey can succeed and there's
clarity in that space.
Now, if it's a boss, okay, Ihandle this very differently.
And my methodology of handlingit is to say, is there an
(17:03):
opportunity still for us to lookat this differently?
I typically ask permission.
And if the boss comes in andsays, no, the decision has been
made, I'm like, okay, I kind ofhave to suck it up.
Okay.
But if they're open, so I'llsay, is there an opportunity to
look at this differently?
Could we have a conversationabout another perspective?
(17:24):
Um, I'd like to share anotheridea.
Is that something you might beopen to?
Those are methodologies of mysaying as an employee no.
And then I would bring that tothe table.
And I'll and like if they'resaying, yeah, but we can still
talk about it, then I'm gonnastart saying my concern is, or
here's what I think we could do,or I think a better outcome
(17:46):
would be.
And I can bring my perspective,right?
But I'm gonna ask permission tobring that perspective if it's
my boss, versus I'm going totell if it is a staff member.
Do you see that differently?
Speaker 02 (17:59):
No, I mean, the only variation that I do sometimes
more of a delay tactic.
Speaker 00 (18:06):
Now that is what I do with coworkers.
Speaker 02 (18:09):
Okay.
Well, and and for me with witha boss, it like if the decision
is made and there's really nolike we can't alter it, then I'm
then I'm gonna have a priorityconversation, right?
Speaker 00 (18:22):
Me too.
Right?
So I get it.
Speaker 02 (18:26):
If if we're gonna start this, are we okay stopping
this and this or delaying thisand this and this?
How do I put it into priority?
And if the answer is no, youknow, I I may have to say, like,
are you willing to pay apremium and pay overtime?
Or like if it really is thatimportant, like let's have that
conversation, which doesn'tcreate a no as much as an
(18:50):
understanding of how hot isthis?
Speaker 00 (18:53):
Yep.
And how are we gonna get itdone?
So it's I I think you go intonegotiations at that point,
right?
And you say, Okay, I hear you.
It's really criticallyimportant.
Let's talk about the stuff thatit's gonna impact.
So notice I'm not like saying,Hey, and that means I can't get
this done, right?
No, let's talk about the impacton that.
(19:14):
It means that this project isprobably gonna be delayed two
weeks.
Can we live with that?
Right?
So I start like negotiating andsetting expectations for this
is now become the priority,what's gonna happen with
everything else?
And I think that is importantin that space because sometimes
priorities change, sometimes newthings come to the table that
(19:38):
you know, maybe our boss doesn'teven have the ability to say no
to.
And therefore, we have tofigure out a way to align to get
that stuff done.
Right.
And I will say the last pieceof this, if it's a coworker,
sometimes it's like, I'm notsure I'm the best person.
Karman actually is reallyskilled at this.
Do you want to check with her?
(20:00):
Or my other one is I can getthat done, but it's gonna be
about three, three and a halfweeks.
Will that fit with your timeframe?
Those are two really good waysof saying no and delaying it,
and maybe somebody else willpick it up.
Good morning, Scott and Tammy.
Good morning, Karman.
Speaker 02 (00:08):
I'm gonna I'm gonna mind this whole podcast.
Speaker 00 (00:11):
He's not gonna speak.
So, you know, he's just gonnado something.
But I will tell you that herethat will never last for long.
Scott cannot help himself.
He must comment.
It's bringing his whole self tothe table.
I've now left him a challengeand he's gonna see if he can not
speak.
You know, that's that's thewhole thing, right, Scott.
Speaker 01 (00:34):
He just typed into the chat challenge accepted.
So apparently this is gonna bethe Tammy show today.
Speaker 00 (00:41):
Which that's what people come to listen to anyway.
So let's just let's just tellthe truth.
They'd much rather listen to methan Scott.
We need to push Scott's buttonshere.
Speaker 01 (00:53):
I'm trying.
Yes, they're listening to Tammybecause they need something to
help them sleep.
Speaker 00 (01:04):
You know, Karman, if we don't read that, then he
doesn't get any energy fromthis.
So I think we should just lethim be and see how long he can
hold out when we continue toheckle him.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (01:16):
So last week we were talking about some of the newer
self-help books that you knowemphasize creating boundaries,
you know, putting yourselffirst.
If you haven't listened to it,it's a great conversation.
Um, but the during thatconversation, it made me think
(01:39):
about a time in my work when Iwas working on a new team and I
was working with a lot of newteams.
And the woman who ran thisparticular other team, really
great co-worker, somebody that Ireally admired and enjoyed.
(01:59):
And one day she was talkingabout some change that was
coming along or some um taskthat was gonna be transferred
from an old department, maybe toher department.
And she said in a meeting,like, I just told them we'd no,
we can't do that.
That you know, my team's notgonna do that.
(02:22):
And I inside I was like, shit,you can do that.
You can like say no to workthat your team can't handle,
like you can say no to yourboss, right?
It was like I didn't knowwhether to be in awe or to like
(02:44):
be sad for her because shewasn't gonna be around, and and
she's still at thatorganization.
I mean, she's really wellrespected.
So my question today is like,can you tell your boss no?
And are there ways to do it ornot do it?
Speaker 00 (03:05):
So, Karman, this is a phenomenal thing to talk
about, right?
Because I think that there isthis fear that if you say no,
okay, that you're gonna getfired.
And and I will tell you, Ithink that is in many
organizations is a reasonableassumption that if you tell your
(03:33):
boss no, that you are gonnasomehow or another be diminished
and worst case be fired, right?
So Scott worked for anorganization where the
philosophy was if you want to bepromoted, you had to uh go to
different locations.
And so when you get offeredthese different locations, if
(03:56):
you say no more than maybetwice, right, they're gonna stop
offering, right?
So, I mean, there's some truthto some of these things to
recognize that there is a costof saying no in that space.
Speaker 02 (04:12):
Oh, did you want me to talk?
Wait, now Tammy's gonna say, Iwon, I won.
I told you you could keepquiet.
Speaker 00 (04:20):
That's exactly leave enough silence and look at
Scott, and eventually he willspeak up.
So go for it.
Speaker 02 (04:27):
I have much longer willpower.
I just assumed, you know, weactually wanted to do a podcast
today.
Speaker 01 (04:35):
Outcomes.
Speaker 02 (04:36):
What was the outcome?
Speaker 00 (04:38):
Outcomes, just so you know.
I I didn't know.
Speaker 02 (04:41):
In Tammy's mind, her outcome was I won.
Speaker 01 (04:44):
Um you need to work on your imp imitation of Tammy,
Scott.
Oh, is that better?
Speaker 02 (04:55):
Oh, wasn't high pension enough yet?
Speaker 00 (04:58):
Actually, I have a pretty low voice for a moment.
Oh my god, I won.
I have a low voice for amoment.
Okay, Mr.
Bergmeyer, step in, keeptalking.
Speaker 02 (05:08):
I think we just have to say, are there things you
should absolutely say no to?
Yes.
Illegal, immoral, unethical.
Like, I don't think we'rereally talking about those kinds
of things.
Okay.
I, you know, then it's well,all right, what's the risk?
What's the reward of saying no?
And is it really about sayingno?
(05:30):
Or is it saying not right now,let's prioritize?
Is it like understanding whyare you, you know, what's the
context around the ask?
Because sometimes you might bebeing asked as a development, or
like, I don't want to say testbecause that sounds like wonky,
(05:51):
but it might be something tosay, hey, are you ready for this
next step of your growth oryour career?
And you're being, you know,you're being stretched.
Yeah, a stretch assignment.
And so I think it is taking thetime to process and think,
okay, why might I being askedand why me?
(06:15):
And okay, what's the impact ifI say yes?
What's the impact if I say no?
And or do I need to have aprioritization conversation?
And I think what happens isit's just my experience is
people fall on the they say noway too fast, or they say yes
way too fast without theconversation and context in
(06:38):
between.
And so, how do you take take abeat or take a moment to process
that?
And how do you get better atprocessing a little faster?
Because sometimes you might beasked in, like, oh, let me think
about that.
And you many times you don'thave days or weeks or months to
think about it.
Like, you might need to kind ofprocess kind of quickly.
Speaker 00 (06:59):
You know, Scott, I love that you bring that up
because I think I think there isthis polarization, like people
fall on one side of this or theother.
So if they're saying no, wetalk about that sometimes as
black hat thinkers, right?
They're like, no, no, no, no,no.
And then we have this personwho says yes, and we think about
(07:21):
them as, you know, yellow hatthinkers in this spot, like,
yeah, and they're happy andthey're hugging trees and they
believe in unicorns, right?
And I mean, there is a balance.
If you are as a human being,you naturally fall into one of
those two spots.
It's this place where it says,How do I come to a place where
(07:42):
there is more balance andthoughtfulness, intentionality,
right?
Instead of reactivity.
Those other two things arepeople are reacting to the
stimulus versus taking a beat.
And again, taking a beat,taking a moment to think about
it, like, how do you pause forjust a bit so that you can ask
(08:05):
some questions?
So I think the first part ofit, you're right.
Like when this opportunitycomes up, whatever that is that
they're trying to put on yourplate, it's asking questions.
Help me understand why me, whymy team.
Why do you think we would bebeneficial in that?
Okay.
Um, as we look at this, if welook at all the other things
that we do, how does it fit withthe prioritization?
(08:28):
Now, notice I'm not saying no,and notice I'm not talking about
it in even a negative way.
Those questions that I justasked were pretty neutral and
it's seeking to understand.
Speaker 02 (08:40):
Sometimes you need to answer, you need to ask
yourself those questions beforeyou ask those questions out
loud.
Because then tell me why.
So I want to assess if my bossis asking me to do something
that is my job, I I need tostart self-reflecting on why
does my boss have to ask me andwhy am I not just getting it
(09:00):
done?
Speaker 00 (09:01):
Okay, you just said something, right?
Speaker 02 (09:04):
So because I because this there's this piece of
like, okay, is it my job?
And oh shit, they're asking mebecause I'm not doing it or
there's something going on, andand my questions might need to
shift to oh, am I not deliveringthat in a way that is useful or
beneficial and do I need tochange, versus am I being asked
(09:25):
to do something that maybe isadditive, additive.
All right.
So I like some of these I needto look at myself first.
And I always think you shouldask those those questions for
yourself first.
Can you process and understand?
Because sometimes I might justsay to my boss, hey, this sounds
(09:46):
really important.
I'm thinking my priority shouldbe this thing, this thing, and
then the thing you're asking meto do because of this, this, and
this.
Does that seem right?
Because if because if you go tothe well, I'm just gonna ask
all these questions, I can tellyou in my experience as a
leader, depending on how theyask those questions, tone of
(10:07):
voice, I might interpret that asyou're trying to get out of it.
And so it's kind of like havingthis conversation is really
like, and so I'm not sayingdon't ask the questions, it's
just if you already know theanswer to these questions
because you have the context.
Oh, then don't ask then you'refast forwarding, right?
And so I think it's it'slooking at it and saying, All
(10:28):
right, I love these questions,and in my mind, it's a
checklist.
Do I know this?
Yes, do I know this?
Yes.
Oh, I don't know what prioritythis is.
Okay, now I need to start theconversation there.
Speaker 00 (10:42):
So what you said is really important, okay, because
you know, Karman's example isit's additive, okay?
It wasn't part of the job.
So I started with thatassumption, okay.
If it is not additive, if it'syour job, that's a totally
different set of questions.
Okay, just flat out, okay, inthat in that particular spot.
(11:04):
But if it's additive, I thinkthese questions make sense, but
Scott, you're right.
If you're asking them to try topush back, that's not the
intent of asking thosequestions.
unknown (11:16):
Right.
Speaker 00 (11:17):
So, what is your intent?
Is your intent to make surethat you have all the
information that you need sothat you can then analyze that
and and work through that anddecide how you want to respond?
Yeah, but if your intent is totell them that they're an F an
idiot, reality is that that'snever wise in any situation.
That is backing your boss intoa corner.
Speaker 02 (11:39):
And I don't even if they are an idiot.
Speaker 00 (11:42):
It is, and that is just not smarter wise because
they have power, right?
And you have to understand thatpower.
So you that's why you have toask these kinds of questions
with positive intents, with theright tone, with being in
neutral and with being curious.
Okay.
So, of course, you don't askquestions that you know the
(12:02):
answer to, you ask questionsthat you are unsure of the
answer or don't know.
So you're gaining information.
Okay.
And in that spot, I thinkthat's always wise if you are
doing that for the right reason.
In that spot, once you have abigger picture, then you have to
ask yourself the next set ofquestions.
(12:24):
The bigger picture may changeyour mind.
A broader perspective may makeyour first reaction be one that
you're like, well, I was sayingno, but I'm hearing that there's
benefit in this.
I'm hearing how this actuallyhelps my team.
I'm hearing how this wouldactually move the organization
forward, right?
(12:44):
So there is a chance in thisspot when you understand context
that you can get a morepositive reaction, you know,
like you're thinking this couldbe a good idea, or it could be
it reinforces your firstreaction, which was, hell no, I
don't want to do this.
This doesn't make any sense tome, right?
So let's just kind of fastforward and say, hey, you've
(13:06):
asked your questions and itstill doesn't make sense.
At least not to your brain.
I've asked my questions, I'veI've brought in my context, I've
listened to what my boss has tosay, and I still think it's a
bad idea.
Scott, do you remember when youand I first started working
together?
I wrote a program for yourcompany called How to Say No.
(13:29):
And I do remember that.
Speaker 02 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (13:31):
It it literally is a two-hour program about how to
say no.
And and there is an effectiveway to say no, okay?
Speaker 02 (13:42):
In yeah, without using those words, without
saying no.
Speaker 00 (13:46):
So, like, what are the ways that you can redirect?
I redirect and I say no withbosses differently than I
redirect and say no with staffand coworkers.
Okay.
And there is a reason for that.
Bosses have power, staff andco-workers don't have as much
(14:10):
power over me.
So I have two different ways.
So let's play with that forjust a minute.
Scott, if you as a boss, istelling your staff member no,
how do you know you've asked forsomething?
Okay.
How do you tell them reinforcethat no in a way that's
(14:32):
effective?
Speaker 02 (14:32):
Yeah, assuming it's a reasonable ask, I am, and it
depends on I'm gonna make adecision in that moment.
Is this the growth opportunity?
Or is this uh I just need to bea little more direct?
Okay, if I need to be a littlemore direct, I'm gonna say no,
or now's not the right time, andhere's why, or here's my
(14:54):
concerns.
Okay, if it's a growthopportunity, I'm going to spend
a bit more time and I'm going toask questions.
Questions such as help meunderstand what's the benefit of
that.
What else have you considered?
What research have you done tosay this is the best path versus
that is a better path?
And so again, I'm to me, thegrowth one may not be a no
(15:20):
immediately, because it may belike, yeah, we do have to solve
that or we do have to dosomething different there.
I just don't know that whatthey're bringing to the table is
the right thing.
And so we we need some moredata.
And so to me, I'm gonna makethat decision and I'm gonna go
path A or path B.
Speaker 00 (15:35):
I hear you.
Okay, and we're probablytalking about the same thing,
it's just uh it's the moment atthe end where it's like, I'm
sorry, the answer is going to bemy answer.
Speaker 02 (15:46):
Oh, yeah.
If if we're talking the moment,the moment at the end, then for
me, it's the no, and here'swhy.
Yeah, here's the context aroundwhy.
Speaker 00 (15:56):
And honestly, it's I I think there's this piece that
it's like, hey, I hear you,right?
So I want to let that staffmember know that I heard them,
that I even get theirreluctance.
Okay, and I'm gonna use thatword, I you know, in that spot.
So I hear you, and I hear thatreluctance, or I hear your
(16:17):
concerns.
And, and you know me, that's mymy connective phrase, and this
decision has been made.
This is why that decision hasbeen made.
So here's the context, andhere's what um, you know, here's
why that decision has been madeand how we're gonna have to
(16:39):
move forward.
I think being very forthrightwhen it's an employee is
critically important becauseit's honest, right?
I agree with that, and thenthey can succeed and there's
clarity in that space.
Now, if it's a boss, okay, Ihandle this very differently.
And my methodology of handlingit is to say, is there an
(17:03):
opportunity still for us to lookat this differently?
I typically ask permission.
And if the boss comes in andsays, no, the decision has been
made, I'm like, okay, I kind ofhave to suck it up.
Okay.
But if they're open, so I'llsay, is there an opportunity to
look at this differently?
Could we have a conversationabout another perspective?
(17:24):
Um, I'd like to share anotheridea.
Is that something you might beopen to?
Those are methodologies of mysaying as an employee no.
And then I would bring that tothe table.
And I'll and like if they'resaying, yeah, but we can still
talk about it, then I'm gonnastart saying my concern is, or
here's what I think we could do,or I think a better outcome
(17:46):
would be.
And I can bring my perspective,right?
But I'm gonna ask permission tobring that perspective if it's
my boss, versus I'm going totell if it is a staff member.
Do you see that differently?
Speaker 02 (17:59):
No, I mean, the only variation that I do sometimes
more of a delay tactic.
Speaker 00 (18:06):
Now that is what I do with coworkers.
Speaker 02 (18:09):
Okay.
Well, and and for me with witha boss, it like if the decision
is made and there's really nolike we can't alter it, then I'm
then I'm gonna have a priorityconversation, right?
Speaker 00 (18:22):
Me too.
Right?
So I get it.
Speaker 02 (18:26):
If if we're gonna start this, are we okay stopping
this and this or delaying thisand this and this?
How do I put it into priority?
And if the answer is no, youknow, I I may have to say, like,
are you willing to pay apremium and pay overtime?
Or like if it really is thatimportant, like let's have that
conversation, which doesn'tcreate a no as much as an
(18:50):
understanding of how hot isthis?
Speaker 00 (18:53):
Yep.
And how are we gonna get itdone?
So it's I I think you go intonegotiations at that point,
right?
And you say, Okay, I hear you.
It's really criticallyimportant.
Let's talk about the stuff thatit's gonna impact.
So notice I'm not like saying,Hey, and that means I can't get
this done, right?
No, let's talk about the impacton that.
(19:14):
It means that this project isprobably gonna be delayed two
weeks.
Can we live with that?
Right?
So I start like negotiating andsetting expectations for this
is now become the priority,what's gonna happen with
everything else?
And I think that is importantin that space because sometimes
priorities change, sometimes newthings come to the table that
(19:38):
you know, maybe our boss doesn'teven have the ability to say no
to.
And therefore, we have tofigure out a way to align to get
that stuff done.
Right.
And I will say the last pieceof this, if it's a coworker,
sometimes it's like, I'm notsure I'm the best person.
Karman actually is reallyskilled at this.
Do you want to check with her?
(20:00):
Or my other one is I can getthat done, but it's gonna be
about three, three and a halfweeks.
Will that fit with your timeframe?
Those are two really good waysof saying no and delaying it,
and maybe somebody else willpick it up.
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