August 6, 2025 • 22 mins
Every strength has a shadow side. That confident communication style that makes you so persuasive? It might be shutting down the very conversations you're trying to create. Those brilliant ideas constantly flowing from your mind? They could be overwhelming your team instead of inspiring them. Your nurturing approach that makes people feel safe? It might make your necessary feedback feel unexpectedly harsh.
In this refreshingly honest conversation, we dive into the paradox of leadership traits by examining our own double-edged qualities. Scott reveals how his abundant idea generation requires "ruthless discernment" to prevent overwhelming others. Tammy explores how her authoritative communication style can unintentionally close discussions rather than open them. Karman shares how her supportive "mother hen" approach sometimes makes it difficult to deliver direct feedback when needed.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when we explore how people respond to titles and authority regardless of how we see ourselves. Even leaders who reject hierarchical thinking must recognize that a simple "my boss wants it this way" changes dynamics in ways we can't control. But rather than feeling trapped by these realities, we discover how self-awareness offers freedom - the ability to consciously choose which aspects of ourselves to emphasize in different situations.
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Episode Transcript
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Karman (00:00):
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Good morning Karman.
Scott (00:05):
Yo Karman.
Tammy (00:08):
Scott, you are the weirdest man.
Karman (00:12):
But that's why we like you so true.
A bubble off center.
Tammy (00:16):
The kind of folks I love.
Karman (00:18):
Which is actually a great lead in to something I was
thinking about this morning.
A great lead in to something Iwas thinking about this morning.
Last week, we talked aboutcompetitiveness and how it can
be a good trait.
It could also be somebody'sworst trait, depending on what
you do with that and where youtake it.
(00:39):
And it got me to thinking aboutother traits, other traits that
are considered good leadershiptraits, and what's the flip side
, Like confidence as an example.
You know, like a leader shouldhave confidence, OK.
Well, what can happen if thatgoes wrong?
(01:00):
Being able to speak your mind,you know, can that go bad.
So I guess I'd like you to eachthink about a trait or two that
are considered like goodleadership traits and what
happens when the coin flips onthose.
Tammy (01:20):
Scott.
I think we should do like youshould do yours, scott.
I think we should do like youshould do yours, like here's the
upside of Scott, and thenhere's the downside of Scott.
Scott (01:32):
Oh, I thought we were just supposed to think of traits
and I had a really good one.
Well, you could do that one.
No, I don't want to anymore.
(01:57):
Oh, there's the upside and thedownside of a Tammy trait right
there.
I haven't had an idea or athought or a way to say, hey,
this could be better or thiscould be different, or one's
like, oh, I don't know how tosolve this, like I can probably
think of 30 things you could do.
So I think you know that's apretty fantastic, you know it's
a pretty fantastic trait,frankly.
(02:18):
Now, the downside of that is itcan be overwhelming.
It can be a place where youknow what.
There are times where peopledon't want ideas or suggestions.
Sometimes there can be like oh,we have to filter through all
(02:39):
of these to say which ones makesense and which one doesn't make
sense.
Right, so that can create workand effort that maybe we
wouldn't need to take.
So that, in my mind, is myfirst one.
Tammy (02:55):
So I think about that, scott, and one of the things you
know, as you and I brought ourcompanies together, that thing
that you do, it's like we shoulddo this and this and this and
this and this and this and thisand this and this and this and
this and this and this and this,and I remember early on it was
so much fun because I would belike no, no, no, no, yes, right.
(03:16):
And that's actually part ofwhere the ruthless discernment
started to come out in thatspace is that it was like you
had all these amazing ideas andwe had to ruthlessly discern of
all those, which one was the onewe should go with right.
And so you and I balanced eachother out on that.
Here's this great gift that youhad and something that I will
(03:39):
tell you I thought I needed inmy life right, and you're right.
Then there was too much, it wasoverwhelming, and sometimes it
would be like come on, can't wejust celebrate the fact that
we're really good today, rightIn that space, and we balanced.
We had to find a way to balancethat out between us, right In
(04:00):
that space.
Yeah, so I liked that one a lot.
I, you know, I would say maybeone of mine is I think I've been
given the gift of gab, like Iam fairly eloquent and Fairly
she says this is right.
(04:21):
Okay, this is correct.
This is the idea.
This is what we need to do.
That communication style thathas so much like authority and
confidence or whatever you wantto say behind it, is a great
thing, right, it works reallywell at keynotes and it works
really well with children.
(04:43):
There's a lot of stuff in thatand it is persuasive and that's
great.
However, I think the downsideof that is that it really
oftentimes is not my intentionto say that this is the right
answer.
It is my intention to say I'mthinking this what do you think?
That is not how it comes across, and so, therefore, it can stop
(05:08):
conversation, not extendconversation, and oftentimes
it's my intent to extend and itdoesn't come out correctly.
That has been something I'vestruggled with my entire life
been something I've struggledwith my entire life.
Scott (05:26):
Yeah, tammy, for me as you talk about it when I think
about it.
Tammy (05:37):
I don't notice that part, Because you know that you have
another idea.
Scott (05:39):
So that's another reason why we're good together, right,
right.
But for me it's more of what Isee and I know I fell into this
when we first really startedworking together is you're going
, and so I just let you go, likeif we're co-facilitating, and
it's like, hey, right.
And I can remember us havingthe conversations like hey, you
(06:00):
know, I have to get bigger andyou have to get small, right,
and us trying to figure out howto, and I think we have figured
that out.
So now I'm watching it as Ico-facilitate with some of our
team.
They just defer, and it's likeit's true.
Tammy (06:19):
It's true.
I just did a session with Jen aweek or so ago and I mean Jen
just sat down.
She just it was like oh no, jen, you got to fight for airspace,
yeah.
Scott (06:34):
And again, this is the piece of.
They have to fight and we haveto force the space and create
the space.
Tammy (06:43):
Yeah, make space.
Yeah, have to um force thespace and create space.
Scott (06:46):
yeah, make space you know , and so it's that, it's that
balancing act.
Um, I I tell susan like hey, Iam just gonna sit and be quiet
and you need to speak earlieryeah, and I do t-ups right, so
I'll do.
Tammy (07:01):
Hey, jen, why don't you tell him about?
Because jen will be very happyand she'll be there, and it's
like here's the very intentionalhandoff in that space.
Yeah, all right, Karman, areyou playing?
Or is it just Scott and I todaythat are revealing?
Karman (07:23):
Oh well, I like it best when you guys are on the hot
spot.
Scott (07:28):
That's two weeks in a row .
Two weeks in a row.
That she's like, hey, I'llnibble at that bait and then I'm
going to spit it out right backto you, reel, in your empty
hook.
Tammy (07:41):
And what are the chances we're going to let you off the
hook now, Karman?
Well, probably pretty low.
So you throw these questionsand sometimes I don't think
people even realize we don'tknow what you're going to ask us
, right?
So you just ask questions andwe just then respond.
So every once in a while,Karman, we're going to throw it
(08:03):
back at you.
So since Scott's done one andI've done one, it's your turn.
What is one of your strengths?
But what is the downside ofthat strength?
Karman (08:13):
I'm going to go to this comfortable spot where we think
about me as the mother hen andlisteners.
I am more multidimensional thanthat, but it's a thing that I
bring to this mix and you knowso the great thing about that
people see me as being caring.
(08:33):
When I'm coaching with people,right, they can get really
comfortable being honest andtalking about things, because
they perceive me as being acaring, kind person who will
take their shit and not, youknow, make it stink worse.
(08:54):
You're safe, and so these areall nice things, and sometimes
that doesn't serve me well.
And so these are all nicethings, and sometimes that
doesn't serve me well, you know.
So in a coaching relationship,for example.
Ok, so now it's time to come toJesus and have some harder looks
at things, and people aren'tquite ready for that from me.
(09:16):
Or they don't come expectingthat, or they don't come
expecting that, and so when I ama little harsher or a little
more pointed, it feels extrasharp because that's not you
know, that's not the bucket thatthey had put me in.
And I think that just over myentire career as a leader being
(09:38):
kind I wouldn't say it wasalways the most important thing
to me, but I would also say thatsometimes I held back and I
wasn't always really good atgiving immediate direct feedback
because I wanted to like waitand think about that and come at
(10:00):
it in a way that was superconstructive or whatever I, you
know, wanted it, thought Iwanted it to be, and I wasn't
terribly great at thatin-the-moment correction that
could be just verymatter-of-fact.
Tammy (10:16):
Yeah, because the supportive part of Karman was
stronger than the.
I need to have thisconversation.
Part of Karman.
Karman (10:26):
Right, and some of that, I think, is an overcorrection
from being a super bossy bigsister.
You know, when I was 12.
Was that the right B word?
Well, you'll have to ask mysiblings that.
Ok, all right.
But you know, I was like when Iwas in charge.
I was in charge, damn it, andlike you better, listen to me
(10:49):
four-year-old, because I'm the12-year-old and I'm in charge.
I think you know I learned mylessons from that, from being
that kind of leader.
Tammy (11:05):
And maybe sometimes the pendulum swung a little too far,
just cracks me up, Karman,every time you talk about that,
because I mean, I know you, youare not bossy and she's like I
was so bossy.
And yet, honestly, that is nothow.
It's not only not how Iexperience you.
Your predictive index profileas a guardian right that's the
(11:26):
mother hen piece.
That is what I experience ofyou.
Is this very supportive.
Put other people first, youknow, and don't really step into
that big role and don't reallystep into that big role.
And yet I also knowprofessionally you have held
these very responsible positionsthroughout your entire career
(11:51):
and I'm sure you were.
You know, like I am the boss.
I've just never experienced youlike that, which is always
interesting in that space.
Because I'm not the boss in thisrelationship, yeah, and you
know it's funny, scott and I are, but I don't, I don't.
To me we're just a bunch ofhumans going and doing work, but
(12:15):
I'm pretty sure that's not howeverybody else sees us Right,
cause I just don't think ofmyself in any way, shape or form
like that in that space.
But it's always interestingbecause I know, just with the
title people defer and that isalways an interesting thing to
be at this space and place in mylife to recognize that people
(12:38):
defer to me because not only doI have this confident like way
that I speak and all that kindof stuff, but I also have this
big, huge title and that's soweird because I'm— To defer to
that way is a littledisconcerting.
Karman (12:54):
When it would happen to me, you know, I would hear in
the hallway somebody whoreported to me saying to
somebody else here in thehallway, somebody who reported
to me saying to somebody else,yeah, but Karman wants it that
way, and I'd be like shit,anybody cares, but apparently
they did yeah.
Tammy (13:11):
Yeah, that's why when Jen introduces me and she says this
is my boss, and I'm like, don'tdo that, it's just I'm Tammy,
you know, but I guess it'simportant.
So, scott, do you like it whenpeople refer to you that way,
like you're the boss?
Scott (13:27):
Oh, honestly, the only time I think this is sounds
funny in my mind, the only timethat I think it really really
matters, is when it needs to andit sounds like, well, that's
really not an answer, but no,but like, hey, somebody is
playing, well, I like you haveto talk to my boss, or like
they're playing a power card,then, yeah, we may need to kind
(13:49):
of match that up.
Or if, oh, okay, we need toescalate a situation and someone
will feel good If you have thecertain title in the room, then
yeah, that to me in thosemoments.
Sure, otherwise I don't care.
Tammy (14:11):
Yeah.
So I giggled when you said thatbecause I got an email this
weekend that said hey, I met youat SHRM and you told me that I
really needed to talk with Scott, that Scott was the boss and I
was wondering if you'd make theintroduction.
And I laughed so hard when Iread that this weekend because I
actually had played that cardat SHRM.
I read that this weekendbecause I actually had played
(14:32):
that card at Sherm.
I'm not the right person, butScott is, but he's busy right
now, so we'll have to defer thisconversation?
Scott (14:41):
Oh, I think I know who it is, yeah we don't need to talk
to them.
Hope they're not listening tothis podcast.
Well, if it's who I think it is, it was a company that you know
what we should do.
A podcast about marketing andwhat to do and what not to do if
(15:01):
you want to make an impressionand have a partnership with an
organization.
Oh, that might be aninteresting Because they have
reached out and I told them noand I think then they came
anyway.
Tammy (15:14):
Oh, so now they're trying a backdoor.
Scott (15:17):
Yeah.
If it's who I think it is, so Idon't know for sure.
Tammy (15:20):
We'll find out.
We'll find out later in thatspace.
Scott (15:24):
So now that we've shared, to Karman's question, like why
does this matter?
Why does it matter to be awareor to have some sort of some
sort of clue, or you get a clueabout what is good or and not
good about this like why doesthat even matter, because
(15:45):
everyone has these things?
Right, we've each named one.
We can likely, like we couldsay right, we can play the game.
You know, tammy names one forme and one for Karman, and I
name one for Karman.
Right, we could play that wholegame, but in the end of the day
, why is everybody naming myfaults here?
Karman (16:01):
Because you don't have the title.
Scott (16:07):
Yeah.
Tammy (16:08):
Oh goodness, you know that is the.
That is this piece right?
I think one of the spots for us, and one of the things that I
believe in fully, isself-awareness allows us to be
able to choose when to pull outa tool right.
(16:29):
When to step into things, whento step back right.
There's so many people thatthey just react.
And when we are reactive, whenwe're not intentional or
purposeful that is, the timeperiods that we sometimes don't
get the outcomes that we wantand don't, you know, move
forward in a way that we hadhoped to move forward
(16:50):
Self-awareness allows us to stopfor a beat and make a choice
instead of just being reactiveIn doing so.
I believe that's when weactually get our brains engaged.
That's when we are actuallybeing able to think things
through and make decisions thatwe think, at least in that
(17:10):
moment, are the right decisions,and we might find out later
that it wasn't.
Think at least in that momentare the right decisions, and we
might find out later that itwasn't.
But I would rather be athinking person and making those
decisions than being anon-thinking person and having
to kick myself later for notthinking it through in those
spaces, and I think that's mywhy right?
(17:30):
Is that self-awareness, so thatI can choose and then, in those
choices, live with theconsequences of the choices that
I've made, instead of justreacting?
Scott, how do you see it?
Scott (17:43):
you know I I use the example a lot and I'll do a
shameless plug of our of thechief optimization officer book,
right, the awareness quotient.
So part of it is we all havetraits that are really, really
good and if we overuse thosetraits they become an anchor.
(18:04):
And it's really about how areyou self-managing those traits
and looking at the impact to thepeople, the individuals around
you, the team around you, theorganization, what kind of an
impact is it having and how areyou adjusting those?
And it's funny because when youstart to really think about it,
(18:24):
if you've ever seen the movieShrek the first one where he
says ogres are like onions,right, they have layers.
It really is how are you lookingat this trait?
That is an amazing trait foreach of us, and how are you
adjusting it?
When I work with Tammy or whenI work with Karman, but when
we're working together, I mighthave to adjust it differently.
(18:45):
And when it's just the three ofus, how I adjust it is one way.
When I'm in a different group,how I adjust it is a different
way.
Which means now I have to lookat how I'm making these
adjustments in athree-dimensional,
four-dimensional,five-dimensional way.
It's like the multiverse ofself-awareness.
Tammy (19:06):
Well, scott, I like what you're saying because in the end
this piece, we have a lot offolks who say you know, but this
is who I am right, and theyhave this spot where they're
trying to like you're making mebe something different than I am
.
That is never the goal, right?
The goal is to find a way.
Scott (19:27):
And my response when they say this is who I am is good
for f***ing you.
Yes, yes, I mean, it's weaksauce, if that is good for
f***ing you, yes, yes.
I mean it's weak sauce.
Tammy (19:37):
If that's how you're going to, be Correct, because
the piece about that is I dowant you to be you and I want
you to recognize that thefullness of you is also a human
being who can modify, who canmake this part bigger right now
(19:58):
and this part smaller right now,and I can overhear in order to
make this situation work.
I'm willing to adjust in thosemoments.
It doesn't mean I'm not beingme.
It means that I am self-awareenough to bring the right part
of me to the table, right, andthat's that thing where anybody
(20:21):
who is like, hey, I have theright to be me yes, you do, and
let's keep growing, becausethere's a lot more to you than I
have the right to be me.
Where's the rest of you?
Right, because every humanbeing is more complex than that.
I had a gentleman the other dayin a group and he said I'm
(20:42):
really, really simple.
No, he's not, he's not simple.
He's not simple in any way,shape or form.
He is unwilling to evolve, tosee the rest of the story, and
that's the piece that I think iskind of cool about this
question, Karman, what's therest of the story about that
(21:05):
human being?
And figuring that out foryourself and then figuring out
how to use that for good, notfor evil.
Good morning Scott and Tammy.
Good morning Karman.
Scott (00:05):
Yo Karman.
Tammy (00:08):
Scott, you are the weirdest man.
Karman (00:12):
But that's why we like you so true.
A bubble off center.
Tammy (00:16):
The kind of folks I love.
Karman (00:18):
Which is actually a great lead in to something I was
thinking about this morning.
A great lead in to something Iwas thinking about this morning.
Last week, we talked aboutcompetitiveness and how it can
be a good trait.
It could also be somebody'sworst trait, depending on what
you do with that and where youtake it.
(00:39):
And it got me to thinking aboutother traits, other traits that
are considered good leadershiptraits, and what's the flip side
, Like confidence as an example.
You know, like a leader shouldhave confidence, OK.
Well, what can happen if thatgoes wrong?
(01:00):
Being able to speak your mind,you know, can that go bad.
So I guess I'd like you to eachthink about a trait or two that
are considered like goodleadership traits and what
happens when the coin flips onthose.
Tammy (01:20):
Scott.
I think we should do like youshould do yours, scott.
I think we should do like youshould do yours, like here's the
upside of Scott, and thenhere's the downside of Scott.
Scott (01:32):
Oh, I thought we were just supposed to think of traits
and I had a really good one.
Well, you could do that one.
No, I don't want to anymore.
(01:57):
Oh, there's the upside and thedownside of a Tammy trait right
there.
I haven't had an idea or athought or a way to say, hey,
this could be better or thiscould be different, or one's
like, oh, I don't know how tosolve this, like I can probably
think of 30 things you could do.
So I think you know that's apretty fantastic, you know it's
a pretty fantastic trait,frankly.
(02:18):
Now, the downside of that is itcan be overwhelming.
It can be a place where youknow what.
There are times where peopledon't want ideas or suggestions.
Sometimes there can be like oh,we have to filter through all
(02:39):
of these to say which ones makesense and which one doesn't make
sense.
Right, so that can create workand effort that maybe we
wouldn't need to take.
So that, in my mind, is myfirst one.
Tammy (02:55):
So I think about that, scott, and one of the things you
know, as you and I brought ourcompanies together, that thing
that you do, it's like we shoulddo this and this and this and
this and this and this and thisand this and this and this and
this and this and this and this,and I remember early on it was
so much fun because I would belike no, no, no, no, yes, right.
(03:16):
And that's actually part ofwhere the ruthless discernment
started to come out in thatspace is that it was like you
had all these amazing ideas andwe had to ruthlessly discern of
all those, which one was the onewe should go with right.
And so you and I balanced eachother out on that.
Here's this great gift that youhad and something that I will
(03:39):
tell you I thought I needed inmy life right, and you're right.
Then there was too much, it wasoverwhelming, and sometimes it
would be like come on, can't wejust celebrate the fact that
we're really good today, rightIn that space, and we balanced.
We had to find a way to balancethat out between us, right In
(04:00):
that space.
Yeah, so I liked that one a lot.
I, you know, I would say maybeone of mine is I think I've been
given the gift of gab, like Iam fairly eloquent and Fairly
she says this is right.
(04:21):
Okay, this is correct.
This is the idea.
This is what we need to do.
That communication style thathas so much like authority and
confidence or whatever you wantto say behind it, is a great
thing, right, it works reallywell at keynotes and it works
really well with children.
(04:43):
There's a lot of stuff in thatand it is persuasive and that's
great.
However, I think the downsideof that is that it really
oftentimes is not my intentionto say that this is the right
answer.
It is my intention to say I'mthinking this what do you think?
That is not how it comes across, and so, therefore, it can stop
(05:08):
conversation, not extendconversation, and oftentimes
it's my intent to extend and itdoesn't come out correctly.
That has been something I'vestruggled with my entire life
been something I've struggledwith my entire life.
Scott (05:26):
Yeah, tammy, for me as you talk about it when I think
about it.
Tammy (05:37):
I don't notice that part, Because you know that you have
another idea.
Scott (05:39):
So that's another reason why we're good together, right,
right.
But for me it's more of what Isee and I know I fell into this
when we first really startedworking together is you're going
, and so I just let you go, likeif we're co-facilitating, and
it's like, hey, right.
And I can remember us havingthe conversations like hey, you
(06:00):
know, I have to get bigger andyou have to get small, right,
and us trying to figure out howto, and I think we have figured
that out.
So now I'm watching it as Ico-facilitate with some of our
team.
They just defer, and it's likeit's true.
Tammy (06:19):
It's true.
I just did a session with Jen aweek or so ago and I mean Jen
just sat down.
She just it was like oh no, jen, you got to fight for airspace,
yeah.
Scott (06:34):
And again, this is the piece of.
They have to fight and we haveto force the space and create
the space.
Tammy (06:43):
Yeah, make space.
Yeah, have to um force thespace and create space.
Scott (06:46):
yeah, make space you know , and so it's that, it's that
balancing act.
Um, I I tell susan like hey, Iam just gonna sit and be quiet
and you need to speak earlieryeah, and I do t-ups right, so
I'll do.
Tammy (07:01):
Hey, jen, why don't you tell him about?
Because jen will be very happyand she'll be there, and it's
like here's the very intentionalhandoff in that space.
Yeah, all right, Karman, areyou playing?
Or is it just Scott and I todaythat are revealing?
Karman (07:23):
Oh well, I like it best when you guys are on the hot
spot.
Scott (07:28):
That's two weeks in a row .
Two weeks in a row.
That she's like, hey, I'llnibble at that bait and then I'm
going to spit it out right backto you, reel, in your empty
hook.
Tammy (07:41):
And what are the chances we're going to let you off the
hook now, Karman?
Well, probably pretty low.
So you throw these questionsand sometimes I don't think
people even realize we don'tknow what you're going to ask us
, right?
So you just ask questions andwe just then respond.
So every once in a while,Karman, we're going to throw it
(08:03):
back at you.
So since Scott's done one andI've done one, it's your turn.
What is one of your strengths?
But what is the downside ofthat strength?
Karman (08:13):
I'm going to go to this comfortable spot where we think
about me as the mother hen andlisteners.
I am more multidimensional thanthat, but it's a thing that I
bring to this mix and you knowso the great thing about that
people see me as being caring.
(08:33):
When I'm coaching with people,right, they can get really
comfortable being honest andtalking about things, because
they perceive me as being acaring, kind person who will
take their shit and not, youknow, make it stink worse.
(08:54):
You're safe, and so these areall nice things, and sometimes
that doesn't serve me well.
And so these are all nicethings, and sometimes that
doesn't serve me well, you know.
So in a coaching relationship,for example.
Ok, so now it's time to come toJesus and have some harder looks
at things, and people aren'tquite ready for that from me.
(09:16):
Or they don't come expectingthat, or they don't come
expecting that, and so when I ama little harsher or a little
more pointed, it feels extrasharp because that's not you
know, that's not the bucket thatthey had put me in.
And I think that just over myentire career as a leader being
(09:38):
kind I wouldn't say it wasalways the most important thing
to me, but I would also say thatsometimes I held back and I
wasn't always really good atgiving immediate direct feedback
because I wanted to like waitand think about that and come at
(10:00):
it in a way that was superconstructive or whatever I, you
know, wanted it, thought Iwanted it to be, and I wasn't
terribly great at thatin-the-moment correction that
could be just verymatter-of-fact.
Tammy (10:16):
Yeah, because the supportive part of Karman was
stronger than the.
I need to have thisconversation.
Part of Karman.
Karman (10:26):
Right, and some of that, I think, is an overcorrection
from being a super bossy bigsister.
You know, when I was 12.
Was that the right B word?
Well, you'll have to ask mysiblings that.
Ok, all right.
But you know, I was like when Iwas in charge.
I was in charge, damn it, andlike you better, listen to me
(10:49):
four-year-old, because I'm the12-year-old and I'm in charge.
I think you know I learned mylessons from that, from being
that kind of leader.
Tammy (11:05):
And maybe sometimes the pendulum swung a little too far,
just cracks me up, Karman,every time you talk about that,
because I mean, I know you, youare not bossy and she's like I
was so bossy.
And yet, honestly, that is nothow.
It's not only not how Iexperience you.
Your predictive index profileas a guardian right that's the
(11:26):
mother hen piece.
That is what I experience ofyou.
Is this very supportive.
Put other people first, youknow, and don't really step into
that big role and don't reallystep into that big role.
And yet I also knowprofessionally you have held
these very responsible positionsthroughout your entire career
(11:51):
and I'm sure you were.
You know, like I am the boss.
I've just never experienced youlike that, which is always
interesting in that space.
Because I'm not the boss in thisrelationship, yeah, and you
know it's funny, scott and I are, but I don't, I don't.
To me we're just a bunch ofhumans going and doing work, but
(12:15):
I'm pretty sure that's not howeverybody else sees us Right,
cause I just don't think ofmyself in any way, shape or form
like that in that space.
But it's always interestingbecause I know, just with the
title people defer and that isalways an interesting thing to
be at this space and place in mylife to recognize that people
(12:38):
defer to me because not only doI have this confident like way
that I speak and all that kindof stuff, but I also have this
big, huge title and that's soweird because I'm— To defer to
that way is a littledisconcerting.
Karman (12:54):
When it would happen to me, you know, I would hear in
the hallway somebody whoreported to me saying to
somebody else here in thehallway, somebody who reported
to me saying to somebody else,yeah, but Karman wants it that
way, and I'd be like shit,anybody cares, but apparently
they did yeah.
Tammy (13:11):
Yeah, that's why when Jen introduces me and she says this
is my boss, and I'm like, don'tdo that, it's just I'm Tammy,
you know, but I guess it'simportant.
So, scott, do you like it whenpeople refer to you that way,
like you're the boss?
Scott (13:27):
Oh, honestly, the only time I think this is sounds
funny in my mind, the only timethat I think it really really
matters, is when it needs to andit sounds like, well, that's
really not an answer, but no,but like, hey, somebody is
playing, well, I like you haveto talk to my boss, or like
they're playing a power card,then, yeah, we may need to kind
(13:49):
of match that up.
Or if, oh, okay, we need toescalate a situation and someone
will feel good If you have thecertain title in the room, then
yeah, that to me in thosemoments.
Sure, otherwise I don't care.
Tammy (14:11):
Yeah.
So I giggled when you said thatbecause I got an email this
weekend that said hey, I met youat SHRM and you told me that I
really needed to talk with Scott, that Scott was the boss and I
was wondering if you'd make theintroduction.
And I laughed so hard when Iread that this weekend because I
actually had played that cardat SHRM.
I read that this weekendbecause I actually had played
(14:32):
that card at Sherm.
I'm not the right person, butScott is, but he's busy right
now, so we'll have to defer thisconversation?
Scott (14:41):
Oh, I think I know who it is, yeah we don't need to talk
to them.
Hope they're not listening tothis podcast.
Well, if it's who I think it is, it was a company that you know
what we should do.
A podcast about marketing andwhat to do and what not to do if
(15:01):
you want to make an impressionand have a partnership with an
organization.
Oh, that might be aninteresting Because they have
reached out and I told them noand I think then they came
anyway.
Tammy (15:14):
Oh, so now they're trying a backdoor.
Scott (15:17):
Yeah.
If it's who I think it is, so Idon't know for sure.
Tammy (15:20):
We'll find out.
We'll find out later in thatspace.
Scott (15:24):
So now that we've shared, to Karman's question, like why
does this matter?
Why does it matter to be awareor to have some sort of some
sort of clue, or you get a clueabout what is good or and not
good about this like why doesthat even matter, because
(15:45):
everyone has these things?
Right, we've each named one.
We can likely, like we couldsay right, we can play the game.
You know, tammy names one forme and one for Karman, and I
name one for Karman.
Right, we could play that wholegame, but in the end of the day
, why is everybody naming myfaults here?
Karman (16:01):
Because you don't have the title.
Scott (16:07):
Yeah.
Tammy (16:08):
Oh goodness, you know that is the.
That is this piece right?
I think one of the spots for us, and one of the things that I
believe in fully, isself-awareness allows us to be
able to choose when to pull outa tool right.
(16:29):
When to step into things, whento step back right.
There's so many people thatthey just react.
And when we are reactive, whenwe're not intentional or
purposeful that is, the timeperiods that we sometimes don't
get the outcomes that we wantand don't, you know, move
forward in a way that we hadhoped to move forward
(16:50):
Self-awareness allows us to stopfor a beat and make a choice
instead of just being reactiveIn doing so.
I believe that's when weactually get our brains engaged.
That's when we are actuallybeing able to think things
through and make decisions thatwe think, at least in that
(17:10):
moment, are the right decisions,and we might find out later
that it wasn't.
Think at least in that momentare the right decisions, and we
might find out later that itwasn't.
But I would rather be athinking person and making those
decisions than being anon-thinking person and having
to kick myself later for notthinking it through in those
spaces, and I think that's mywhy right?
(17:30):
Is that self-awareness, so thatI can choose and then, in those
choices, live with theconsequences of the choices that
I've made, instead of justreacting?
Scott, how do you see it?
Scott (17:43):
you know I I use the example a lot and I'll do a
shameless plug of our of thechief optimization officer book,
right, the awareness quotient.
So part of it is we all havetraits that are really, really
good and if we overuse thosetraits they become an anchor.
(18:04):
And it's really about how areyou self-managing those traits
and looking at the impact to thepeople, the individuals around
you, the team around you, theorganization, what kind of an
impact is it having and how areyou adjusting those?
And it's funny because when youstart to really think about it,
(18:24):
if you've ever seen the movieShrek the first one where he
says ogres are like onions,right, they have layers.
It really is how are you lookingat this trait?
That is an amazing trait foreach of us, and how are you
adjusting it?
When I work with Tammy or whenI work with Karman, but when
we're working together, I mighthave to adjust it differently.
(18:45):
And when it's just the three ofus, how I adjust it is one way.
When I'm in a different group,how I adjust it is a different
way.
Which means now I have to lookat how I'm making these
adjustments in athree-dimensional,
four-dimensional,five-dimensional way.
It's like the multiverse ofself-awareness.
Tammy (19:06):
Well, scott, I like what you're saying because in the end
this piece, we have a lot offolks who say you know, but this
is who I am right, and theyhave this spot where they're
trying to like you're making mebe something different than I am
.
That is never the goal, right?
The goal is to find a way.
Scott (19:27):
And my response when they say this is who I am is good
for f***ing you.
Yes, yes, I mean, it's weaksauce, if that is good for
f***ing you, yes, yes.
I mean it's weak sauce.
Tammy (19:37):
If that's how you're going to, be Correct, because
the piece about that is I dowant you to be you and I want
you to recognize that thefullness of you is also a human
being who can modify, who canmake this part bigger right now
(19:58):
and this part smaller right now,and I can overhear in order to
make this situation work.
I'm willing to adjust in thosemoments.
It doesn't mean I'm not beingme.
It means that I am self-awareenough to bring the right part
of me to the table, right, andthat's that thing where anybody
(20:21):
who is like, hey, I have theright to be me yes, you do, and
let's keep growing, becausethere's a lot more to you than I
have the right to be me.
Where's the rest of you?
Right, because every humanbeing is more complex than that.
I had a gentleman the other dayin a group and he said I'm
(20:42):
really, really simple.
No, he's not, he's not simple.
He's not simple in any way,shape or form.
He is unwilling to evolve, tosee the rest of the story, and
that's the piece that I think iskind of cool about this
question, Karman, what's therest of the story about that
(21:05):
human being?
And figuring that out foryourself and then figuring out
how to use that for good, notfor evil.
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