August 20, 2025 • 22 mins
Ever found yourself so mentally drained at the end of a workday that you can't even decide what to eat for dinner? That's decision fatigue in action – a leadership challenge that silently erodes effectiveness and energy.
During our candid conversation, we dive deep into why so many leaders hit this mental wall and the surprising ways they often create their own exhaustion. When leaders make decisions that should rightfully belong to their team members, they not only overburden themselves but also stunt their team's growth. We unpack how "reverse delegation" happens when staff members push decisions upward, and how leaders unwittingly encourage this by second-guessing or overriding the decisions their people do make.
The solution begins with a simple but powerful exercise: tracking every decision you make for a week. This decision inventory reveals which choices could easily be delegated and which team members might be consistently avoiding decision responsibility. We share practical strategies for setting proper boundaries, truly releasing control (not just pretending to), and distinguishing between decisions that genuinely require your attention versus those that don't.
Leaders often misinterpret servant leadership as making all decisions for their team when true servant leadership means developing others' decision-making muscles. By properly analyzing what's driving your decision fatigue and taking specific actions to address it, you can reclaim your mental energy while simultaneously developing a more capable, confident team.
Ready to break free from the exhaustion of making everyone else's decisions? Listen now to discover how to put decisions back where they belong and focus your leadership energy where it matters most.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning Scott and Tammy Morning Carmen.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello Carmen.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
So weird.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Well, you know, you never know how Scott's going to
greet us.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
What side of the bed he got up in this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
The left side.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Is that your normal side?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I take whatever side is furthest from the bathroom,
according to my wife.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's the rule.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
That is the rule.
You guys actually switch sidesof the bed over your marriage,
Like if we're in a hotel orsomewhere and the other side is
closer to the bedroom.
Yeah, we'll switch.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I've never switched sides.
Carmen, have you ever switchedsides?
No, oh wow, scott, you're moreadaptable than most.
I thought you had a side.
That's the side you sleep on.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's just a bed.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I get that in theory, but if I go like to a hotel by
myself, I still sleep on my sideof the bed.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Um, that's every time , yeah, every time.
I have a side.
What side are you, carmen, asyou look at the head of the bed,
what side are you?
Right, I'm left, so you and Icould share a bed if we traveled
together to share a room right,it's good to know?
Yeah, good to know, scott.
Either one of us could share abed if we traveled together to
share a room right, it's good toknow?
Yeah, good to know, scott,either one of us would share a
room with you, just so you know.
That's off the table, I don'tcare.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
If I'm in a hotel by myself, I try out all the beds.
One night in, one bed, onenight in.
I'm sure housekeeping loves me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Do you really?
I wanted to ask forhousekeeping.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You really should.
Yeah, I will sometimes yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Just make sure I use all the sheets and all the
towels, because I'm paying forthis place.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Well, you know we could have the whole
conversation about.
You know, they only come andclean your room every other day
or every third day, which, again, I don't care.
I just find it interesting thatthey've cut their operational
costs, but prices haven't gonedown.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, that was one of the things I thought was really
interesting.
That happened in COVID andpost-COVID is everywhere I go.
Now, you know, and I mean Scottand I are in hotels every week,
right, and yeah, that's.
I don't get clean sheets everyday.
I don't get clean towels everyday, right.
I'm in North Carolina this week, Carolina this week, and I
(02:43):
checked in late last night andI'm looking at the bill and I
was like that's an extremelyexpensive hotel One night
overnight stay.
But it is what it is.
Every city has their thing and,yeah, nice hotel big bucks.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, the thing I wanted to talk about today is
Hotels.
How did you know, I'm trying tolike create some like segue
between hotels and this topic,and I'm usually the queen of
segues and this morning I'm justI'm not getting there.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You fell off your segue.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
You think I was wearing my helmet.
We made it hard on her, Scott.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Sorry about that.
You make it hard on us everyweek when you throw these
questions out there and we haveno idea.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I was going to say she's probably going to pick an
extra hard topic this morning.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, so it's.
I figure it's only fair that wefinally made something hard for
you.
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, this phrase came up recently when I was at a
meeting decision fatigue and Iwas thinking For f*** sake, I
mean, I'd have fatigue, fatiguewell, when I first heard that
(04:09):
phrase I was like, oh my god,yes, like.
What a description for when.
You know, when I worked in thecorporate world and I had 25
people reporting to me and 29product lines, and you know,
like, know, like, I get to theend of the day, I'd be like I
(04:30):
can't make one more choice, Ican't decide what's for dinner,
just listeners.
So you know, scott is likeplaying his little violin of sad
music for me, scott, who youknow has one.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
He'll never have decision fatigue in his life.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
He loves to make decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
It's just a decision.
It's just a bad.
It's just a decision.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I would get to a point where, like, don't make me
decide what I'm eating forlunch, like I just I can't make
one more decision.
So my real question for youguys is, like, how do you see
this playing out in leaders thatyou work with, and how do you
(05:17):
help a leader, like get theirmojo back, because decision
making is pretty damn important?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
One of the most important things in terms of a
leader's responsibility, right,is to be able to make certain
calls, not all calls.
So it's Carmen, we're laughingbecause you're talking to two
people who, like, probably don'tvery often feel like we're
tired of making decisions.
So my guess is the two of usmay not be the best people in
(05:46):
the world to listen to at thispoint, but we can try.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I think there's a Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Carmen.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I think you see it happen with clients, right, we
do.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
We do, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about that
too, like what leads into partof that right, and I think there
is a fundamental pieceunderneath this that, as leaders
, we really do need to address.
I think part of decisionfatigue comes from not
(06:24):
delegating some of thosedecisions.
So think about this.
You know, Carmen, all the staffI mean first of all,
20-something staff to reportdirectly to you is a huge number
Too many.
Yeah, we're working.
I'm working with a client rightnow who has 13 direct reports
(06:44):
and does not have enough time tobe able to do anything other
than just like run flat out andin that 13, if any of them are
not like making the calls thatthey should be making.
So, in other words, instead ofit sticking at that level, it's
coming up a level like tell mewhat to do, how do I do this?
(07:08):
What's the right answer, whichyou hear all of the time, is
people coming in and askingpermission or asking for
feedback or information to maketheir own decisions in that
particular spot.
Now you're not making thedecision of your role, you're
making the decisions of lots ofother people's roles and in that
spot we sometimes create ourown problems by not pushing
(07:34):
decisions down to the level ofthe staff where it should be.
And, scott, sometimes you talkabout that chain.
Right, if the bottom of thechain isn't doing their job,
then the next level has to do it.
And that means every level getspulled down a level into that
spot.
And the further down that youare pulled and the further down
(07:55):
people are like hell, no, I'mnot making that call.
Nope, that's not my call.
I better get somebody to tellme, the more decisions get
heaped on an executive'sshoulders.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
If you have decision fatigue, the reality is you're
making the wrong decisions, andI think there's this piece of
you're making decisions thataren't at your level and you're
allowing people to not make thedecisions that they should be
making at their level.
Now we'd likely have to unpackthat to say is it because they
won't make them or is it becauseyou, as the leader, won't let
(08:27):
them?
Right make them, or is itbecause you, as the leader,
won't let them Right?
And it could be column A orcolumn B or a combination of
both.
And the other reality is, ifyou're making that many
decisions and you truly havedecision fatigue, you probably
are also making wrong or baddecisions.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Why do you say that?
Because you're tired.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
You're tired.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You're not thinking as clearly as you could or
should.
I had to decide what I'm havingfor lunch, and now I'm wore out
and I can't decide what, and so, like there is and there is
research out there that talksabout if I do have to make too
many decisions, I will startthat like that, brain power is
(09:09):
not infinite.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What's interesting, carmen, in terms of you were
like I don't want to make youknow the the lunch decision.
See, what's interesting aboutthat is that's actually a good
choice.
And what I mean by that is, ifyou are in a space where you are
the person who has to make alot of decisions, lunch doesn't
(09:30):
matter, right, let's go back toyou know, what side of the bed
are you sleeping on?
Some of these things don'tmatter.
The consequences of whateverdecision that we make is so
minimal that those are decisionsthat, if you're in that world,
those are ones that give up.
And honest to goodness, I mean.
I think about that typical fight.
(09:51):
You come home from work andit's like I don't feel like
cooking, so we're going out todinner.
And then you have this battleabout where you're going out to
dinner and that space.
It's like I don't care, I madethis decision, I'm not cooking.
Somehow or another we're goingto eat.
I'm not cooking.
Okay, somehow or another we'regoing to eat.
(10:13):
You figure out, you know,somehow or another we're going
to eat.
I'm just telling you.
I have nothing to do with thecooking side of this thing,
right, and it was really funnywhen I figured that out with my
husband, michael.
Now I'm like I'm not cookingtonight and he's like all right,
and he knows exactly what thatmeans.
He has to either bring food in,pull something out of the
freezer that he can stick in theoven, right, or we're going out
(10:36):
and he has to make all of thosedecisions because I'm done
making decisions in thatparticular spot, which is really
what that means.
I'm just done making thedecisions today in that area.
So that's an interesting pieceof that is, what decisions can
you easily give away?
I mean really like who caresdecisions?
(10:58):
Absolutely give those puppiesaway.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And yet somehow make the decision maker feel like
it's a valuable decision.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
It is to me, because every time when Michael's like,
okay, we're going to go, fill inthe blank, I'm like that's
perfect and that's so.
You also can't argue with themwhen you give that decision away
.
You have to be like whateverthey say, you can live with,
right.
So if my husband comes back andsays, okay, I'm going to go get
McDonald's, the answer isthat's perfect.
(11:29):
Okay, I'm going to go getMcDonald's, the answer is that's
perfect, right, because I'vegiven it away, I need to then
support that decision.
And that's the mistake thatsometimes it's like we still
have vested interest in thissmaller decision, versus if we
could say I don't, I am going tobe happy with whatever that is,
and you know this, this thingwhere it's like I want my cake
(11:54):
and eat it too.
I don't want to make thedecision, but you better make
the right one.
That's part of the reason whythey ended up in that decision
fatigue in the first time isbecause there are other people
are making decisions.
They don't like those decisions, so that they undo them and
then pretty soon no one aroundthem will make those decisions.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Why make a decision if you're just going to undo it?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Correct.
So this piece around that Ikind of get that.
People get there.
I think what we're reallysaying is, before you're like,
hey, don't make me make any moredecisions, it's think about how
you're contributing to thatfatigue yourself.
Are you making decisions forothers that they should be
making for themselves?
(12:34):
Are you over-invested inwhatever these decisions are and
you can't live with theconsequences?
There's a thing there that youshould be looking at too,
because is your brain always theright brain and is your answer
always the right answer?
Is your brain always the rightbrain and is your answer always
the right answer?
Now Scott might say, yes, right,but the fact of the matter is
(12:54):
we all kind of have decisionsthat could easily be delegated
to others, and you know they'reexperienced enough, they have
enough gray matter, we've taughtthem how to think things
through and in that spot weshould trust their decision.
And then, if it's not perfect,they learn through iteration.
(13:16):
That's how all of us learn bynot making perfect decisions, by
the next piece of informationcoming in.
So decisions most of them arenot final.
Decisions can be moved as moreinformation comes in too, and if
you get to the place where youthink this is such an important
decision is it really?
(13:37):
Is it a once and done decision,or is this a for now decision?
And that's the other thing?
We can build this thing intosomething so big that it's not
really that big right Now.
Buying a house pretty bigdecision.
Getting married pretty bigdecision.
Where we go on vacation, it'sjust a week, right.
(14:00):
A job, it's just for a timeframe.
A job is not necessarilyforever, unless, of course, you
work for us that's different,but in most right, all of these
are things that can be changedand or modified over time.
It's not forever.
Scott, is there anything elsethat you would say leads to this
(14:21):
?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I mean, I keep thinking about this piece of.
If you're feeling this decisionfatigue, you know.
Now it is time to start toanalyze what is driving that.
So I love Carmen's examples.
So if it's decisions aboutlunch and some of these things,
it's like okay, what do you needto put around yourself so that
(14:43):
you have less decisions?
Or you think about whatFacebook dude, right, zuckerberg
, he wears the same outfit everyday.
One less decision.
And again some people say, whoa,I can't do that in my job.
(15:04):
And I'm not saying that, thoseare the thing, it's just
starting to unpack.
Where are you making thosedecisions?
And if you find this group ofdecisions that someone else
should be making, before youjust blindly delegate, of course
you have to do the leadershipwork to say have I been holding
too tight?
Have I been Monday morningquarterbacking and not allowing
them and changing it?
Have I ever said just go ahead,please make that decision.
(15:28):
Have I ever done those things?
Because I do need to give itaway and put it in the right
place and I think sometimespeople they're just making the
decisions.
They haven't put the thoughtinto it and the right level of
thought.
Where am I going for lunch?
Yeah, that's a 10-seconddecision, if that.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I think it might be interesting in this space to
simply sit down and almost do aninventory.
So you know, like, whatdecisions have you made?
You know and just like, keep alog.
Here are the decisions that Imade on Monday.
Here are the decisions I madeon Tuesday, here are the
decisions I made on Wednesday.
Keep a log and let's look at itfor a week At the end of that
(16:22):
week.
Right, take a look and say whatdecisions of these could I have
turned over with little or nonegative consequence?
Because I do think that thereis oftentimes at work staff
members who are going to come toyou and ask you to make a
decision that they could havemade themselves, and ask you to
make a decision that they couldhave made themselves.
And, carmen, you asked us aquestion about reverse
delegation, I don't even know, acouple of months ago, and that
really is this reversedelegation piece.
(16:43):
And when you look at all thedecisions that you made over the
course of the week, my guess isthat you have certain staff
members who have come in andsaid not said out loud, but by
their actions are saying I don'twant to make this call, I'll
get my boss to make this callfor me, so I don't have to think
it through and or beresponsible for it.
And so now you can see thatpattern.
(17:05):
So a couple of things thathappen.
One I can see what kind ofdecisions that I'm making that
really I can delegate.
Two, is there a staff memberwho is responsible for some of
that?
And then I can make choicesabout how to move forward in
that and I can sit down and Ican say hey, billy Bob, you know
, last week you came into theoffice and I actually was
(17:28):
writing down like how manydecisions I made, and I made 29
decisions for you last week.
Let's look through this realquickly.
What does that mean and whatdoes that suggest?
And more than likely, billy Bobdoesn't even know that he's
doing it.
Billy Bob might simply be comingin and asking for permission
(17:49):
right, because many people dothat.
They literally go to their bossand they think, oh, I should
get permission.
But if I notice that with BillyBob, it's so easy for me to say
you have permission for thesethings, okay, I don't need to be
involved in these decisions.
So now you get to also startlike setting expectations and
setting boundaries in thatparticular spot, because, again.
(18:12):
I believe so many times somebodycomes and asks me a question, I
answer that question.
That answer is a decision right, and in those spaces now I've
escalated the number ofdecisions that I've made without
knowing it, unintentionally.
I'm in that spot where I'mmaking decisions that really
(18:33):
aren't mine to make.
So I do think it's thisanalysis and then looking and
saying how am I contributing toit?
Do I have individuals that arecontributing to it?
And then taking action andgetting decision making put in
the right place inside of theorganization, right, and as a
boss, saying that's your call,and that is one of the things
(18:55):
that many bosses don't do.
We're told to be servantleaders, but we misinterpret
what that means.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, we don't misinterpret it, it is
bastardized, correct.
I mean, let's just.
I mean people look at it andsay I need to.
That could be a whole, notherlengthy, long podcast.
It's true, and I think you'reright.
It is looking at it and sayingis this my decision?
If no, whose?
(19:24):
And put it in the spot that itneeds to be.
And you might have to work sideby side with them for a window
of time to support them so thatthey're making decisions within
the boundaries.
You need them to make YepTotally appropriate and if you
continue to have decisionfatigue, there's likely some
(19:45):
work to do for you to say am Ijust?
Do I need to build that muscle?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, and that piece of do I need to build others'
competencies?
And that piece of do I need tobuild others' competencies?
Do I need to build my owncompetency of boundaries and
saying no and handing that thingback in those spaces?
I'm guessing anybody who islistening to this and they're
like, but I do have it.
Well, more than likely, alittle bit of analysis is going
(20:11):
to show you those two thingsright.
I have individuals who aresaying no to me or are like not
wanting to make their owndecisions.
I'm going to have to work withthem to get them there Because,
remember, right, you should notbe doing their work.
They need to be doing theirwork right.
And then this other side too,this spot that says am I holding
onto?
Something's too tight.
And once you figure out thosetwo things, you can start to
(20:34):
take action to make it better.
Important decisions there aredecisions that leaders should
make.
What are yours?
Where's your line right?
What's the place where itreally has risen to?
It's your responsibility.
Outside of that, we should bepushing those decisions back to
staff and letting staff beinvolved in those decisions, as
(20:55):
well as the consequences thatcome with them.
That's a learning curve andthat's how they become the next
level up.
And the next level up and thenext level up is by looking at
those things, thinking thosethings, through making decisions
, living with the consequencesof that.
That's how you build employeeskill sets and it's important
that you're doing that as well.
Good morning Scott and Tammy Morning Carmen.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello Carmen.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
So weird.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Well, you know, you never know how Scott's going to
greet us.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
What side of the bed he got up in this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
The left side.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Is that your normal side?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I take whatever side is furthest from the bathroom,
according to my wife.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's the rule.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
That is the rule.
You guys actually switch sidesof the bed over your marriage,
Like if we're in a hotel orsomewhere and the other side is
closer to the bedroom.
Yeah, we'll switch.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I've never switched sides.
Carmen, have you ever switchedsides?
No, oh wow, scott, you're moreadaptable than most.
I thought you had a side.
That's the side you sleep on.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's just a bed.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I get that in theory, but if I go like to a hotel by
myself, I still sleep on my sideof the bed.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Um, that's every time , yeah, every time.
I have a side.
What side are you, carmen, asyou look at the head of the bed,
what side are you?
Right, I'm left, so you and Icould share a bed if we traveled
together to share a room right,it's good to know?
Yeah, good to know, scott.
Either one of us could share abed if we traveled together to
share a room right, it's good toknow?
Yeah, good to know, scott,either one of us would share a
room with you, just so you know.
That's off the table, I don'tcare.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
If I'm in a hotel by myself, I try out all the beds.
One night in, one bed, onenight in.
I'm sure housekeeping loves me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Do you really?
I wanted to ask forhousekeeping.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
You really should.
Yeah, I will sometimes yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Just make sure I use all the sheets and all the
towels, because I'm paying forthis place.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Well, you know we could have the whole
conversation about.
You know, they only come andclean your room every other day
or every third day, which, again, I don't care.
I just find it interesting thatthey've cut their operational
costs, but prices haven't gonedown.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, that was one of the things I thought was really
interesting.
That happened in COVID andpost-COVID is everywhere I go.
Now, you know, and I mean Scottand I are in hotels every week,
right, and yeah, that's.
I don't get clean sheets everyday.
I don't get clean towels everyday, right.
I'm in North Carolina this week, Carolina this week, and I
(02:43):
checked in late last night andI'm looking at the bill and I
was like that's an extremelyexpensive hotel One night
overnight stay.
But it is what it is.
Every city has their thing and,yeah, nice hotel big bucks.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, the thing I wanted to talk about today is
Hotels.
How did you know, I'm trying tolike create some like segue
between hotels and this topic,and I'm usually the queen of
segues and this morning I'm justI'm not getting there.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You fell off your segue.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
You think I was wearing my helmet.
We made it hard on her, Scott.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Sorry about that.
You make it hard on us everyweek when you throw these
questions out there and we haveno idea.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I was going to say she's probably going to pick an
extra hard topic this morning.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, so it's.
I figure it's only fair that wefinally made something hard for
you.
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, this phrase came up recently when I was at a
meeting decision fatigue and Iwas thinking For f*** sake, I
mean, I'd have fatigue, fatiguewell, when I first heard that
(04:09):
phrase I was like, oh my god,yes, like.
What a description for when.
You know, when I worked in thecorporate world and I had 25
people reporting to me and 29product lines, and you know,
like, know, like, I get to theend of the day, I'd be like I
(04:30):
can't make one more choice, Ican't decide what's for dinner,
just listeners.
So you know, scott is likeplaying his little violin of sad
music for me, scott, who youknow has one.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
He'll never have decision fatigue in his life.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
He loves to make decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
It's just a decision.
It's just a bad.
It's just a decision.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I would get to a point where, like, don't make me
decide what I'm eating forlunch, like I just I can't make
one more decision.
So my real question for youguys is, like, how do you see
this playing out in leaders thatyou work with, and how do you
(05:17):
help a leader, like get theirmojo back, because decision
making is pretty damn important?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
One of the most important things in terms of a
leader's responsibility, right,is to be able to make certain
calls, not all calls.
So it's Carmen, we're laughingbecause you're talking to two
people who, like, probably don'tvery often feel like we're
tired of making decisions.
So my guess is the two of usmay not be the best people in
(05:46):
the world to listen to at thispoint, but we can try.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I think there's a Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Carmen.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I think you see it happen with clients, right, we
do.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
We do, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about that
too, like what leads into partof that right, and I think there
is a fundamental pieceunderneath this that, as leaders
, we really do need to address.
I think part of decisionfatigue comes from not
(06:24):
delegating some of thosedecisions.
So think about this.
You know, Carmen, all the staffI mean first of all,
20-something staff to reportdirectly to you is a huge number
Too many.
Yeah, we're working.
I'm working with a client rightnow who has 13 direct reports
(06:44):
and does not have enough time tobe able to do anything other
than just like run flat out andin that 13, if any of them are
not like making the calls thatthey should be making.
So, in other words, instead ofit sticking at that level, it's
coming up a level like tell mewhat to do, how do I do this?
(07:08):
What's the right answer, whichyou hear all of the time, is
people coming in and askingpermission or asking for
feedback or information to maketheir own decisions in that
particular spot.
Now you're not making thedecision of your role, you're
making the decisions of lots ofother people's roles and in that
spot we sometimes create ourown problems by not pushing
(07:34):
decisions down to the level ofthe staff where it should be.
And, scott, sometimes you talkabout that chain.
Right, if the bottom of thechain isn't doing their job,
then the next level has to do it.
And that means every level getspulled down a level into that
spot.
And the further down that youare pulled and the further down
(07:55):
people are like hell, no, I'mnot making that call.
Nope, that's not my call.
I better get somebody to tellme, the more decisions get
heaped on an executive'sshoulders.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
If you have decision fatigue, the reality is you're
making the wrong decisions, andI think there's this piece of
you're making decisions thataren't at your level and you're
allowing people to not make thedecisions that they should be
making at their level.
Now we'd likely have to unpackthat to say is it because they
won't make them or is it becauseyou, as the leader, won't let
(08:27):
them?
Right make them, or is itbecause you, as the leader,
won't let them Right?
And it could be column A orcolumn B or a combination of
both.
And the other reality is, ifyou're making that many
decisions and you truly havedecision fatigue, you probably
are also making wrong or baddecisions.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Why do you say that?
Because you're tired.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
You're tired.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You're not thinking as clearly as you could or
should.
I had to decide what I'm havingfor lunch, and now I'm wore out
and I can't decide what, and so, like there is and there is
research out there that talksabout if I do have to make too
many decisions, I will startthat like that, brain power is
(09:09):
not infinite.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What's interesting, carmen, in terms of you were
like I don't want to make youknow the the lunch decision.
See, what's interesting aboutthat is that's actually a good
choice.
And what I mean by that is, ifyou are in a space where you are
the person who has to make alot of decisions, lunch doesn't
(09:30):
matter, right, let's go back toyou know, what side of the bed
are you sleeping on?
Some of these things don'tmatter.
The consequences of whateverdecision that we make is so
minimal that those are decisionsthat, if you're in that world,
those are ones that give up.
And honest to goodness, I mean.
I think about that typical fight.
(09:51):
You come home from work andit's like I don't feel like
cooking, so we're going out todinner.
And then you have this battleabout where you're going out to
dinner and that space.
It's like I don't care, I madethis decision, I'm not cooking.
Somehow or another we're goingto eat.
I'm not cooking.
Okay, somehow or another we'regoing to eat.
(10:13):
You figure out, you know,somehow or another we're going
to eat.
I'm just telling you.
I have nothing to do with thecooking side of this thing,
right, and it was really funnywhen I figured that out with my
husband, michael.
Now I'm like I'm not cookingtonight and he's like all right,
and he knows exactly what thatmeans.
He has to either bring food in,pull something out of the
freezer that he can stick in theoven, right, or we're going out
(10:36):
and he has to make all of thosedecisions because I'm done
making decisions in thatparticular spot, which is really
what that means.
I'm just done making thedecisions today in that area.
So that's an interesting pieceof that is, what decisions can
you easily give away?
I mean really like who caresdecisions?
(10:58):
Absolutely give those puppiesaway.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And yet somehow make the decision maker feel like
it's a valuable decision.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
It is to me, because every time when Michael's like,
okay, we're going to go, fill inthe blank, I'm like that's
perfect and that's so.
You also can't argue with themwhen you give that decision away
.
You have to be like whateverthey say, you can live with,
right.
So if my husband comes back andsays, okay, I'm going to go get
McDonald's, the answer isthat's perfect.
(11:29):
Okay, I'm going to go getMcDonald's, the answer is that's
perfect, right, because I'vegiven it away, I need to then
support that decision.
And that's the mistake thatsometimes it's like we still
have vested interest in thissmaller decision, versus if we
could say I don't, I am going tobe happy with whatever that is,
and you know this, this thingwhere it's like I want my cake
(11:54):
and eat it too.
I don't want to make thedecision, but you better make
the right one.
That's part of the reason whythey ended up in that decision
fatigue in the first time isbecause there are other people
are making decisions.
They don't like those decisions, so that they undo them and
then pretty soon no one aroundthem will make those decisions.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Why make a decision if you're just going to undo it?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Correct.
So this piece around that Ikind of get that.
People get there.
I think what we're reallysaying is, before you're like,
hey, don't make me make any moredecisions, it's think about how
you're contributing to thatfatigue yourself.
Are you making decisions forothers that they should be
making for themselves?
(12:34):
Are you over-invested inwhatever these decisions are and
you can't live with theconsequences?
There's a thing there that youshould be looking at too,
because is your brain always theright brain and is your answer
always the right answer?
Is your brain always the rightbrain and is your answer always
the right answer?
Now Scott might say, yes, right,but the fact of the matter is
(12:54):
we all kind of have decisionsthat could easily be delegated
to others, and you know they'reexperienced enough, they have
enough gray matter, we've taughtthem how to think things
through and in that spot weshould trust their decision.
And then, if it's not perfect,they learn through iteration.
(13:16):
That's how all of us learn bynot making perfect decisions, by
the next piece of informationcoming in.
So decisions most of them arenot final.
Decisions can be moved as moreinformation comes in too, and if
you get to the place where youthink this is such an important
decision is it really?
(13:37):
Is it a once and done decision,or is this a for now decision?
And that's the other thing?
We can build this thing intosomething so big that it's not
really that big right Now.
Buying a house pretty bigdecision.
Getting married pretty bigdecision.
Where we go on vacation, it'sjust a week, right.
(14:00):
A job, it's just for a timeframe.
A job is not necessarilyforever, unless, of course, you
work for us that's different,but in most right, all of these
are things that can be changedand or modified over time.
It's not forever.
Scott, is there anything elsethat you would say leads to this
(14:21):
?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I mean, I keep thinking about this piece of.
If you're feeling this decisionfatigue, you know.
Now it is time to start toanalyze what is driving that.
So I love Carmen's examples.
So if it's decisions aboutlunch and some of these things,
it's like okay, what do you needto put around yourself so that
(14:43):
you have less decisions?
Or you think about whatFacebook dude, right, zuckerberg
, he wears the same outfit everyday.
One less decision.
And again some people say, whoa,I can't do that in my job.
(15:04):
And I'm not saying that, thoseare the thing, it's just
starting to unpack.
Where are you making thosedecisions?
And if you find this group ofdecisions that someone else
should be making, before youjust blindly delegate, of course
you have to do the leadershipwork to say have I been holding
too tight?
Have I been Monday morningquarterbacking and not allowing
them and changing it?
Have I ever said just go ahead,please make that decision.
(15:28):
Have I ever done those things?
Because I do need to give itaway and put it in the right
place and I think sometimespeople they're just making the
decisions.
They haven't put the thoughtinto it and the right level of
thought.
Where am I going for lunch?
Yeah, that's a 10-seconddecision, if that.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I think it might be interesting in this space to
simply sit down and almost do aninventory.
So you know, like, whatdecisions have you made?
You know and just like, keep alog.
Here are the decisions that Imade on Monday.
Here are the decisions I madeon Tuesday, here are the
decisions I made on Wednesday.
Keep a log and let's look at itfor a week At the end of that
(16:22):
week.
Right, take a look and say whatdecisions of these could I have
turned over with little or nonegative consequence?
Because I do think that thereis oftentimes at work staff
members who are going to come toyou and ask you to make a
decision that they could havemade themselves, and ask you to
make a decision that they couldhave made themselves.
And, carmen, you asked us aquestion about reverse
delegation, I don't even know, acouple of months ago, and that
really is this reversedelegation piece.
(16:43):
And when you look at all thedecisions that you made over the
course of the week, my guess isthat you have certain staff
members who have come in andsaid not said out loud, but by
their actions are saying I don'twant to make this call, I'll
get my boss to make this callfor me, so I don't have to think
it through and or beresponsible for it.
And so now you can see thatpattern.
(17:05):
So a couple of things thathappen.
One I can see what kind ofdecisions that I'm making that
really I can delegate.
Two, is there a staff memberwho is responsible for some of
that?
And then I can make choicesabout how to move forward in
that and I can sit down and Ican say hey, billy Bob, you know
, last week you came into theoffice and I actually was
(17:28):
writing down like how manydecisions I made, and I made 29
decisions for you last week.
Let's look through this realquickly.
What does that mean and whatdoes that suggest?
And more than likely, billy Bobdoesn't even know that he's
doing it.
Billy Bob might simply be comingin and asking for permission
(17:49):
right, because many people dothat.
They literally go to their bossand they think, oh, I should
get permission.
But if I notice that with BillyBob, it's so easy for me to say
you have permission for thesethings, okay, I don't need to be
involved in these decisions.
So now you get to also startlike setting expectations and
setting boundaries in thatparticular spot, because, again.
(18:12):
I believe so many times somebodycomes and asks me a question, I
answer that question.
That answer is a decision right, and in those spaces now I've
escalated the number ofdecisions that I've made without
knowing it, unintentionally.
I'm in that spot where I'mmaking decisions that really
(18:33):
aren't mine to make.
So I do think it's thisanalysis and then looking and
saying how am I contributing toit?
Do I have individuals that arecontributing to it?
And then taking action andgetting decision making put in
the right place inside of theorganization, right, and as a
boss, saying that's your call,and that is one of the things
(18:55):
that many bosses don't do.
We're told to be servantleaders, but we misinterpret
what that means.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, we don't misinterpret it, it is
bastardized, correct.
I mean, let's just.
I mean people look at it andsay I need to.
That could be a whole, notherlengthy, long podcast.
It's true, and I think you'reright.
It is looking at it and sayingis this my decision?
If no, whose?
(19:24):
And put it in the spot that itneeds to be.
And you might have to work sideby side with them for a window
of time to support them so thatthey're making decisions within
the boundaries.
You need them to make YepTotally appropriate and if you
continue to have decisionfatigue, there's likely some
(19:45):
work to do for you to say am Ijust?
Do I need to build that muscle?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, and that piece of do I need to build others'
competencies?
And that piece of do I need tobuild others' competencies?
Do I need to build my owncompetency of boundaries and
saying no and handing that thingback in those spaces?
I'm guessing anybody who islistening to this and they're
like, but I do have it.
Well, more than likely, alittle bit of analysis is going
(20:11):
to show you those two thingsright.
I have individuals who aresaying no to me or are like not
wanting to make their owndecisions.
I'm going to have to work withthem to get them there Because,
remember, right, you should notbe doing their work.
They need to be doing theirwork right.
And then this other side too,this spot that says am I holding
onto?
Something's too tight.
And once you figure out thosetwo things, you can start to
(20:34):
take action to make it better.
Important decisions there aredecisions that leaders should
make.
What are yours?
Where's your line right?
What's the place where itreally has risen to?
It's your responsibility.
Outside of that, we should bepushing those decisions back to
staff and letting staff beinvolved in those decisions, as
(20:55):
well as the consequences thatcome with them.
That's a learning curve andthat's how they become the next
level up.
And the next level up and thenext level up is by looking at
those things, thinking thosethings, through making decisions
, living with the consequencesof that.
That's how you build employeeskill sets and it's important
that you're doing that as well.
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