July 30, 2025 • 22 mins
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn." This simple yet profound statement encapsulates a crucial mindset for effective leadership and personal growth. Our conversation dives deep into the transformative power of embracing failure as a catalyst for development rather than a source of shame.
We explore how our relationship with competition shapes our leadership style. Tammy shares insights from growing up with an ultra-competitive father who viewed drive and hustle as essential traits, while also witnessing the limitations that arise when someone refuses to learn from losses. The most powerful leaders understand that competitiveness isn't about crushing others but elevating ourselves—becoming more through continuous learning.
The distinction between allowing productive failure versus preventing catastrophic mistakes emerges as a critical leadership skill. Just as parents must sometimes let children experience natural consequences to learn life lessons, leaders face similar choices with their teams. When is it appropriate to let someone "clean up aisle five" versus preventing them from "falling off a roof"? These judgment calls require wisdom, empathy, and a genuine commitment to others' growth.
Perhaps most compelling is the research suggesting that what truly ages us isn't our chronology but our unwillingness to keep learning. Those who declare "I'm done" or "I know enough" accelerate their own decline, while those who embrace humility and curiosity continue evolving regardless of age. We discuss how spectacular failures often create the most significant opportunities for growth—if we're willing to get up, dust ourselves off, and try again rather than avoiding challenges altogether.
Ready to transform your relationship with failure? Listen now to discover how embracing both victories and lessons can help you become not just a better leader, but a more fulfilled human being. Share your own learning journey with us and join the conversation about turning setbacks into stepping stones.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning Timmy and Scott.
Scott (00:06):
Hi Karman, Karman, Karman .
Tammy (00:10):
And since when did we become rock stars, Karman?
Karman (00:14):
I love it.
You know you got to start theday with some fan action here.
Absolutely, especially in Julyfan action here, absolutely
Especially in July.
So Scott's in a new officetoday, dear listeners, and I
(00:37):
have purchased for Scott alittle gift for his office that
he has not seen yet and youpodcast listeners will not be
able to see it, so I'll have todescribe it.
It's a little sign that sayssometimes you win and sometimes
you learn.
Scott (00:52):
Nice, Nice.
And what's really cool is Ihave Sharpies so I can change it
.
Sometimes you win and sometimesyou're a loser.
I mean you learn.
Tammy (01:12):
Since he makes a big deal , that second is not a winner.
Scott (01:18):
It's not.
That's why they call it second.
Tammy (01:24):
Second most competitive person in the world that I've
ever met, Mr Bergmeier.
Karman (01:29):
Yeah, second, but doesn't he want to be the most
competitive person you ever met?
Tammy (01:34):
No, because the most competitive person I ever met.
That was their worst trait oftheir entire being and they were
a wonderful being, and thatcompetitiveness got them in
trouble a lot, a lot.
It sounds like they didn'tunderstand how to self-manage
they didn't know how to losewell.
(01:54):
And when you don't know how tolose well, because you can't
always scott, you don't alwayswin.
Scott (02:00):
It's true, I don't right.
Tammy (02:02):
So you have to like be able to be a good loser Right,
which is that thing.
Sometimes you learn.
I like the second right.
Sometimes you win, and if youdon't win then there's always an
opportunity to learn something,to become more, Even if you win
there's an opportunity to learn.
That is also true, except forusually it's more painful when
(02:23):
you don't, and so therefore thelearning lesson becomes great.
That is also true, except forusually it's more painful when
you don't, and so therefore thelearning lesson becomes clear.
Karman (02:27):
that is also true yes well, you guys have, um,
inadvertently, already startedtalking about the topic that I
wanted to introduce today, andbecause that's how good, we are
that's how good.
Tammy (02:39):
You are right.
A good Karman is what my sign.
Karman (02:45):
So just this attitude.
Sometimes you win, sometimesyou learn, like why?
Why would that be an importanttool for a leader to have in
their toolbox?
Tammy (02:58):
Yeah, honestly, Karman , I love this piece.
I come from an uber competitivefamily and that's one of the
pieces that it's kind of fun forScott and I because Scott and I
do compete with one another allthe time and it's a playful
kind of thing back and forth inthat particular spot.
We're not really trying to crusheach other, but it does egg
(03:20):
each other on right in thatspace.
And I can tell you that myfather thought that the number
one, most important trait thathe gave his kids was
competitiveness, this ability togo out there, and he saw
competitiveness and drive andhustle kind of as the same thing
(03:40):
.
It was really, really pushed inmy family and it wasn't about
being better than others, it wasabout elevating, about leveling
up, it was about becoming morein that spot.
And, honestly, you know, whilemy father might have taken it a
tidge too far because my dad wasthe person who's the most
(04:03):
competitive person I've ever metin my life and he was not, he
was not a good loser and it wasthat second part of that phrase
right he didn't learn from thoseexperiences.
Those experiences frustratedhim so much that he rejected
them, that he pushed them awayand in that spot that,
(04:27):
unfortunately, was somethingthat kept him from becoming more
right, and so that spot for meis one of the great learning
lessons that my father gave me.
I got to watch him in both ofthese things and I said, how can
I do this better?
And that has been one of thebiggest gifts for me.
You know, you, what's thelearning lesson?
(04:51):
To get out of the valley.
Scott (04:53):
I love the.
You know this question is soimportant for us and, whether
it's a leader or any human,frankly, from my perspective is
if we take it away from like, ifwe loosen the definition of
winning right so we can say, oh,I played Monopoly and I won, or
I lost right, or I played abasketball game, or I played a
(05:15):
round of golf or whatever it isWinning, you can look at it and
say what is your definition ofsuccess?
Whether that's in this moment,or today, or this week, or this
meeting, or my career, or arelationship with your spouse,
your kids, whatever.
Tammy (05:31):
Yeah, personally or professionally, right?
Scott (05:33):
Personally or professionally, if you're not
winning right Air quotes winning, then it's okay.
What's preventing you fromhaving that win or that level of
success?
And then what are you going todo about it?
What's your course of action?
What's your learning lesson?
And sometimes, just taking thetime to think about it, talk
(05:56):
about it, reflect on it canallow you to say, oh yeah, gosh,
if I wasn't such an asshole,maybe I would be more successful
.
Or if I, you know, actuallylisten to other people's
perspectives instead of justshoving my thoughts down their
throat.
I mean and those are extremeexamples, but it could be
(06:16):
anything from gosh if I just didthe dishes once in a while or I
took out the garbage withoutbeing asked.
Tammy (06:23):
Do you know, yesterday.
So Michael and I well, as youguys know, we're readers, all of
us at Become More Our Readersand my husband and I also read,
and we oftentimes read together.
My husband and I will sit downon a Sunday afternoon and
Michael will read a book andthen we'll talk about stuff as
(06:45):
he's reading portions of thebook Yesterday we actually had
the opportunity and he's readinga book about aging and what
happens when you age.
Right, what are the things thatyou can do to still be the
person that you want to be?
And one of the pieces ofresearch that he talked about
yesterday that was sofascinating to me was that if
(07:08):
you are done learning, that'swhen you become old.
And there's this wholeconversation in this book that
he that talked about the factlike, what is the I'm old
mindset kind of thing, and oneof them is I don't have anything
more to gain, I have nothingmore to learn, I have nothing
more to expand, level up thatthought pattern.
(07:29):
You know you tie that to thisright.
Sometimes you win and sometimesyou learn or you die.
I mean, you know you, if you,if you stagnate, if you don't
take those steps, you knowyou're basically saying I'm done
.
It's not good for the humanpsyche to be done.
We are, by nature, kind ofthese beings that want to
(07:56):
continue to move forward, tomake a difference, to find out
how we can be the best versionof ourselves.
And I think some people getbeat down in that process and
and you know that's a wholenother podcast.
But this piece that says theirpodcast, but this piece that
(08:19):
says you can let it defeat youright, or you can stand when
things don't go well.
I have always thought about thefact that there's if I look at
my life, I've had spectacularfailures.
That's how we talk about them.
They're not little.
I I have a tendency to if I'mgoing to fail, I'm going to fail
full fledged, all out, right.
The biggest piece after that isbeing humble enough to just get
up, dust yourself off and thentry again.
(08:39):
Those moments are the momentsthat I really believe that I
grew the most.
You know there's lots ofreasons.
I had spectacular failuresright.
Most of them had to do with thefact that I was just, you know,
running at it and I wasabsolutely convinced that I was
doing the right thing until itwas obvious that it wasn't the
right thing.
But the part of that is thensaying okay, what's the learning
(09:00):
lesson in that?
What is it that you have tolearn about you?
Because for me, that stuffhappens, and it happens
oftentimes because of thedecisions and the things that
you've done.
So where is the learning lessonin that?
Not that others should havedone it differently.
It's what was for you in thatmoment the thing.
(09:20):
And you have to be humble inthat.
And there is also a gift inhumbleness which we don't talk
about very much.
We talk about confidence, right.
There is this thing about notalways having the right answer,
not always knowing everything,not always being the person
(09:41):
that's out in front.
There is a really importantplace for us to learn how to do
both of those things lead andfollow, be confident and rely on
others.
Finding that spot in thatbalance is also kind of an
interesting thing to play with.
And leaders and remember aleader you can't have a leader
(10:02):
title, but you can be a leaderin any title, right?
You're a leader at home.
You're a leader with yourfriends.
You're a leader of your ownlife, right?
Part of that is learning how todo both of these things in this
spots.
So you are not so arrogant tobelieve that you are always the
person that is going to have tobe in front.
(10:23):
Have the answer drive tocertain things.
So I like that piece of it too,in terms of that statement of
I'm winning and I'm following atthe same time.
Those things should cometogether, yeah.
Scott (10:38):
What I keep thinking about is Karman's question about
why is it important for aleader?
So if we step back and I likewhat Tammy says, I need to be a
leader and a follower, kind ofin that same spot.
It reminds me of a questionthat I get asked frequently
(10:58):
would I let someone fail onpurpose?
And of course, my answer isalways it depends.
Are they going to fail and falloff a roof and become a
paraplegic?
Are they going to trip and falland cost us a million dollars?
No, I'm not going to allow thatto happen.
Am I going to allow them totrip and fall?
(11:20):
And now they have, you know,clean up an aisle five?
Yeah, I might, absolutely,because the learning that can
come.
Karman (11:30):
I mean, I'm the one that you've let fail, scott.
I've been on the cleanup onaisle five, and how does it feel
?
Karman, I really hate it.
I hate it a lot.
I hate it a whole lot.
Do you hate Scott?
Well, sometimes, but not forthat reason.
Tammy (11:52):
That is an honest answer.
It is an honest answer, but inthe moment, in the moment, right
, I'm pretty sure you'reprobably really irritated, right
?
That quote unquote, scott setyou up in that space.
So talk to us about thatbecause, Karman, it's hard for
us to see it, right.
So what is it like in thatmoment?
(12:14):
I mean, you don't like ScottDoes eventually does it turn, or
do you continue to have thatresentment?
Karman (12:22):
Oh, for me the resentment goes away.
The.
Scott (12:28):
Hold on a second.
She said she did not like me.
For that reason, right.
Karman (12:33):
Right, because the Bullshit.
Scott (12:36):
Like she's spinning it here.
Tammy (12:38):
Well, it's like here's the deal.
I'm putting that emotion inyour mouth, Karman.
I'm assuming that when youfigure out that your boss has
set you up right for that littlebit of failure, that there's
some amount of emotion.
I decided to use the wordresentment.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have putthose words in.
I'll let you tell your story.
Karman (13:00):
Yeah, what emotion would I put to that Frustration?
With some anger.
You know that you feel set upnot just like, oh, I failed,
like that's one thing, but tofeel like somebody set you up to
fail is but I.
(13:22):
I really think I interruptedScott's real point there.
Scott (13:25):
That was a good side left turn pass the baton Nice.
Tammy (13:31):
Oh it is so then go to the next spot, right In that
next place.
So do you get over it?
Honestly, like, is therelearning in that?
Is it worth it?
Right, because there's whateveremotion there is in that.
Is there a learning that'sworth it at the end of it?
Karman (13:47):
I would say when I fail, like just because you know like
things work, some things work,some things don't work, whatever
, yeah, the lesson in that isthat's that's an easy spot to
get to, and I think being partof become more has helped me be
(14:08):
more intentional about thatlesson, Although I think I think
even you know, talking aboutour parents, like even my mom
gave me that like okay, likewell, what's the upside here?
You know, and and I think I'vealways carried that ability to
kind of make that switch, beingset up to fail that one burns
(14:32):
for a long time and it's andit's not personal.
It's not a personal burn, butit hits me a lot harder.
And it's not a personal burn,but it hits me a lot harder.
And it's a lot harder for me tofind the lesson there, because
the lesson feels like I gotscrewed instead of oh, there's
(14:52):
the thing that I should takeaway from this.
Tammy (14:56):
And honestly, there's a piece here, you know, I would
tell you, at least from Scott'sand my perspective, we don't
like purposely put this wholebig plan in place for the
learning lesson.
It usually is the decisionsthat the follower has made that
we can see it coming.
(15:19):
Okay, the decisions thatthey've made and the path that
they're going down.
I could, course, correct themand tell them that they're wrong
and that this thing is going tohappen, or I could allow them
to experience it and learn thatthis thing is going to happen.
I will say, scott and I will dothat.
(15:41):
Second thing and, by the way,I'm pretty sure, again, I'm not
a parent, but I'm pretty sureparents have done this forever,
since there's ever been parentsright, as long as it doesn't
result in the death of theirchild, it has some huge
consequence, right, because weoftentimes do learn in these
tougher situations, right, andthat's what we're talking about.
(16:04):
And, yes, we can.
There are a lot of folks whosay you, let me do that, you set
me up.
Actually, you may have setyourself up and we just didn't
stop it from happening.
Karman (16:16):
That's a good distinction, tammy yeah, between
what you allow people to learn,and your comparison to child
raising is a good one.
I'm thinking about when my sondecided to go out for wrestling
in high school.
He'd never wrestled before andI thought this looks like a
(16:37):
disaster headed our way.
But you know, like okay, and hewas super miserable.
And then he had to figure outhow to quit, which was its own
lesson, and and then the coachconvinced him to stay through
the first match or meet.
See, I wasn't even a wrestlingparent long enough to learn the
(17:00):
vocabulary and I said, okay, ifyou, if you hang on through that
, then we can get a dog.
And so that's how my son goingout for wrestling made us dog
parents.
Tammy (17:15):
I love the reward in that , in that spot, and I assume he
lost his first meet and his onlymeet.
Karman (17:27):
Yes, first and only.
And I thought like maybe, okay,well, like maybe after you,
maybe after you have a meet,like you sort of understand the
context for the practicing andthat whatever, and like maybe it
would change his mind.
And at the end of the meet Iwas like so what do you think?
And he was like he did not usethis word to me, but basically
(17:48):
he said I am so f***ing out.
Tammy (17:52):
Well, think about this.
Just the fact that it'swrestling, you're pinned.
I mean talk about losing, Imean in all the ways in life
that you can lose, you literallyare pinned on the mat.
That is like the visual oflosing in that spot.
Oh, poor guy, is probably what?
(18:13):
14, 13, learning this lessonyeah, what uh was he?
Scott (18:17):
was he a what year was he ?
The freshman okay, oh yeah,that's even worse because, yeah,
the upper, the upperclassmenare, are brutal brutal in,
especially in that sport.
Tammy (18:27):
I mean, they're brutal anyway, but in wrestling, oh you
it, they're brutal I don't.
Karman (18:33):
I don't know the young man that he was team partnered
up with for practices, but itseemed like it was always the
same person.
Maybe that's a thing inwrestling Again yeah it's a
weight thing and he really didnot particularly care for his
sparring partner and I think youknow like that's a lot of
(18:57):
intimacy with somebody that youdon't particularly care for, so
I think that probably didn'thelp.
Tammy (19:03):
Do you know that?
It's interesting, carmen, interms of that particular story,
because if you think about yourpin, are you going to get up?
Are you going to?
You know, go at it again.
What are those moments?
You know I told you that my dadwas not a good loser.
(19:23):
If you look at the threechildren that came out of my
parents in a relationship.
My sister never learned to getup right.
When she failed, she failed andshe was done.
She would then go to anotherthing.
She would not stay in thatthing and learn from that thing
(19:44):
versus.
I have had spectacular failuresand I have stayed and I've
continued to step through that.
And it is really interesting tosee how, if you look at it in
your life and look at the peoplearound you, who are the people
who have gotten up, dustedthemselves off, moved forward
(20:04):
and learned right, and who arethe people who then said avoid,
take a left turn, don't go downthis path anymore.
Take a left turn and find outwhat's down that path and just
kind of look at the peoplearound you and where are they
and you know what kind of humanbeings are they and where are
they and what kind of humanbeings are they and where are
they in their growth curve?
I think that if you just satdown and looked at the people
(20:27):
around you, you'd see veryclearly that there is a gift in
the learning if you're willingto learn it.
But it does mean that you'renot looking at what happened out
there, that it happened to you.
The learning is it happened toyou.
The learning is how do I look atthis?
How was I responsible?
What do I need to dodifferently?
(20:49):
And when you are in that kindof learning mode, that is the
place where you're taking stepstowards becoming the full human
being, the full of yourpotential, in your life and
without it and without it,without it, you never reach
(21:09):
those pinnacle moments.
And I think that's what's socool about your statement.
We win, and if you are a humanbeing who says I'm not done yet,
even in your winning you learn.
But you also learn in your, inyour losses.
Good morning Timmy and Scott.
Scott (00:06):
Hi Karman, Karman, Karman .
Tammy (00:10):
And since when did we become rock stars, Karman?
Karman (00:14):
I love it.
You know you got to start theday with some fan action here.
Absolutely, especially in Julyfan action here, absolutely
Especially in July.
So Scott's in a new officetoday, dear listeners, and I
(00:37):
have purchased for Scott alittle gift for his office that
he has not seen yet and youpodcast listeners will not be
able to see it, so I'll have todescribe it.
It's a little sign that sayssometimes you win and sometimes
you learn.
Scott (00:52):
Nice, Nice.
And what's really cool is Ihave Sharpies so I can change it
.
Sometimes you win and sometimesyou're a loser.
I mean you learn.
Tammy (01:12):
Since he makes a big deal , that second is not a winner.
Scott (01:18):
It's not.
That's why they call it second.
Tammy (01:24):
Second most competitive person in the world that I've
ever met, Mr Bergmeier.
Karman (01:29):
Yeah, second, but doesn't he want to be the most
competitive person you ever met?
Tammy (01:34):
No, because the most competitive person I ever met.
That was their worst trait oftheir entire being and they were
a wonderful being, and thatcompetitiveness got them in
trouble a lot, a lot.
It sounds like they didn'tunderstand how to self-manage
they didn't know how to losewell.
(01:54):
And when you don't know how tolose well, because you can't
always scott, you don't alwayswin.
Scott (02:00):
It's true, I don't right.
Tammy (02:02):
So you have to like be able to be a good loser Right,
which is that thing.
Sometimes you learn.
I like the second right.
Sometimes you win, and if youdon't win then there's always an
opportunity to learn something,to become more, Even if you win
there's an opportunity to learn.
That is also true, except forusually it's more painful when
(02:23):
you don't, and so therefore thelearning lesson becomes great.
That is also true, except forusually it's more painful when
you don't, and so therefore thelearning lesson becomes clear.
Karman (02:27):
that is also true yes well, you guys have, um,
inadvertently, already startedtalking about the topic that I
wanted to introduce today, andbecause that's how good, we are
that's how good.
Tammy (02:39):
You are right.
A good Karman is what my sign.
Karman (02:45):
So just this attitude.
Sometimes you win, sometimesyou learn, like why?
Why would that be an importanttool for a leader to have in
their toolbox?
Tammy (02:58):
Yeah, honestly, Karman , I love this piece.
I come from an uber competitivefamily and that's one of the
pieces that it's kind of fun forScott and I because Scott and I
do compete with one another allthe time and it's a playful
kind of thing back and forth inthat particular spot.
We're not really trying to crusheach other, but it does egg
(03:20):
each other on right in thatspace.
And I can tell you that myfather thought that the number
one, most important trait thathe gave his kids was
competitiveness, this ability togo out there, and he saw
competitiveness and drive andhustle kind of as the same thing
(03:40):
.
It was really, really pushed inmy family and it wasn't about
being better than others, it wasabout elevating, about leveling
up, it was about becoming morein that spot.
And, honestly, you know, whilemy father might have taken it a
tidge too far because my dad wasthe person who's the most
(04:03):
competitive person I've ever metin my life and he was not, he
was not a good loser and it wasthat second part of that phrase
right he didn't learn from thoseexperiences.
Those experiences frustratedhim so much that he rejected
them, that he pushed them awayand in that spot that,
(04:27):
unfortunately, was somethingthat kept him from becoming more
right, and so that spot for meis one of the great learning
lessons that my father gave me.
I got to watch him in both ofthese things and I said, how can
I do this better?
And that has been one of thebiggest gifts for me.
You know, you, what's thelearning lesson?
(04:51):
To get out of the valley.
Scott (04:53):
I love the.
You know this question is soimportant for us and, whether
it's a leader or any human,frankly, from my perspective is
if we take it away from like, ifwe loosen the definition of
winning right so we can say, oh,I played Monopoly and I won, or
I lost right, or I played abasketball game, or I played a
(05:15):
round of golf or whatever it isWinning, you can look at it and
say what is your definition ofsuccess?
Whether that's in this moment,or today, or this week, or this
meeting, or my career, or arelationship with your spouse,
your kids, whatever.
Tammy (05:31):
Yeah, personally or professionally, right?
Scott (05:33):
Personally or professionally, if you're not
winning right Air quotes winning, then it's okay.
What's preventing you fromhaving that win or that level of
success?
And then what are you going todo about it?
What's your course of action?
What's your learning lesson?
And sometimes, just taking thetime to think about it, talk
(05:56):
about it, reflect on it canallow you to say, oh yeah, gosh,
if I wasn't such an asshole,maybe I would be more successful
.
Or if I, you know, actuallylisten to other people's
perspectives instead of justshoving my thoughts down their
throat.
I mean and those are extremeexamples, but it could be
(06:16):
anything from gosh if I just didthe dishes once in a while or I
took out the garbage withoutbeing asked.
Tammy (06:23):
Do you know, yesterday.
So Michael and I well, as youguys know, we're readers, all of
us at Become More Our Readersand my husband and I also read,
and we oftentimes read together.
My husband and I will sit downon a Sunday afternoon and
Michael will read a book andthen we'll talk about stuff as
(06:45):
he's reading portions of thebook Yesterday we actually had
the opportunity and he's readinga book about aging and what
happens when you age.
Right, what are the things thatyou can do to still be the
person that you want to be?
And one of the pieces ofresearch that he talked about
yesterday that was sofascinating to me was that if
(07:08):
you are done learning, that'swhen you become old.
And there's this wholeconversation in this book that
he that talked about the factlike, what is the I'm old
mindset kind of thing, and oneof them is I don't have anything
more to gain, I have nothingmore to learn, I have nothing
more to expand, level up thatthought pattern.
(07:29):
You know you tie that to thisright.
Sometimes you win and sometimesyou learn or you die.
I mean, you know you, if you,if you stagnate, if you don't
take those steps, you knowyou're basically saying I'm done
.
It's not good for the humanpsyche to be done.
We are, by nature, kind ofthese beings that want to
(07:56):
continue to move forward, tomake a difference, to find out
how we can be the best versionof ourselves.
And I think some people getbeat down in that process and
and you know that's a wholenother podcast.
But this piece that says theirpodcast, but this piece that
(08:19):
says you can let it defeat youright, or you can stand when
things don't go well.
I have always thought about thefact that there's if I look at
my life, I've had spectacularfailures.
That's how we talk about them.
They're not little.
I I have a tendency to if I'mgoing to fail, I'm going to fail
full fledged, all out, right.
The biggest piece after that isbeing humble enough to just get
up, dust yourself off and thentry again.
(08:39):
Those moments are the momentsthat I really believe that I
grew the most.
You know there's lots ofreasons.
I had spectacular failuresright.
Most of them had to do with thefact that I was just, you know,
running at it and I wasabsolutely convinced that I was
doing the right thing until itwas obvious that it wasn't the
right thing.
But the part of that is thensaying okay, what's the learning
(09:00):
lesson in that?
What is it that you have tolearn about you?
Because for me, that stuffhappens, and it happens
oftentimes because of thedecisions and the things that
you've done.
So where is the learning lessonin that?
Not that others should havedone it differently.
It's what was for you in thatmoment the thing.
(09:20):
And you have to be humble inthat.
And there is also a gift inhumbleness which we don't talk
about very much.
We talk about confidence, right.
There is this thing about notalways having the right answer,
not always knowing everything,not always being the person
(09:41):
that's out in front.
There is a really importantplace for us to learn how to do
both of those things lead andfollow, be confident and rely on
others.
Finding that spot in thatbalance is also kind of an
interesting thing to play with.
And leaders and remember aleader you can't have a leader
(10:02):
title, but you can be a leaderin any title, right?
You're a leader at home.
You're a leader with yourfriends.
You're a leader of your ownlife, right?
Part of that is learning how todo both of these things in this
spots.
So you are not so arrogant tobelieve that you are always the
person that is going to have tobe in front.
(10:23):
Have the answer drive tocertain things.
So I like that piece of it too,in terms of that statement of
I'm winning and I'm following atthe same time.
Those things should cometogether, yeah.
Scott (10:38):
What I keep thinking about is Karman's question about
why is it important for aleader?
So if we step back and I likewhat Tammy says, I need to be a
leader and a follower, kind ofin that same spot.
It reminds me of a questionthat I get asked frequently
(10:58):
would I let someone fail onpurpose?
And of course, my answer isalways it depends.
Are they going to fail and falloff a roof and become a
paraplegic?
Are they going to trip and falland cost us a million dollars?
No, I'm not going to allow thatto happen.
Am I going to allow them totrip and fall?
(11:20):
And now they have, you know,clean up an aisle five?
Yeah, I might, absolutely,because the learning that can
come.
Karman (11:30):
I mean, I'm the one that you've let fail, scott.
I've been on the cleanup onaisle five, and how does it feel
?
Karman, I really hate it.
I hate it a lot.
I hate it a whole lot.
Do you hate Scott?
Well, sometimes, but not forthat reason.
Tammy (11:52):
That is an honest answer.
It is an honest answer, but inthe moment, in the moment, right
, I'm pretty sure you'reprobably really irritated, right
?
That quote unquote, scott setyou up in that space.
So talk to us about thatbecause, Karman, it's hard for
us to see it, right.
So what is it like in thatmoment?
(12:14):
I mean, you don't like ScottDoes eventually does it turn, or
do you continue to have thatresentment?
Karman (12:22):
Oh, for me the resentment goes away.
The.
Scott (12:28):
Hold on a second.
She said she did not like me.
For that reason, right.
Karman (12:33):
Right, because the Bullshit.
Scott (12:36):
Like she's spinning it here.
Tammy (12:38):
Well, it's like here's the deal.
I'm putting that emotion inyour mouth, Karman.
I'm assuming that when youfigure out that your boss has
set you up right for that littlebit of failure, that there's
some amount of emotion.
I decided to use the wordresentment.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have putthose words in.
I'll let you tell your story.
Karman (13:00):
Yeah, what emotion would I put to that Frustration?
With some anger.
You know that you feel set upnot just like, oh, I failed,
like that's one thing, but tofeel like somebody set you up to
fail is but I.
(13:22):
I really think I interruptedScott's real point there.
Scott (13:25):
That was a good side left turn pass the baton Nice.
Tammy (13:31):
Oh it is so then go to the next spot, right In that
next place.
So do you get over it?
Honestly, like, is therelearning in that?
Is it worth it?
Right, because there's whateveremotion there is in that.
Is there a learning that'sworth it at the end of it?
Karman (13:47):
I would say when I fail, like just because you know like
things work, some things work,some things don't work, whatever
, yeah, the lesson in that isthat's that's an easy spot to
get to, and I think being partof become more has helped me be
(14:08):
more intentional about thatlesson, Although I think I think
even you know, talking aboutour parents, like even my mom
gave me that like okay, likewell, what's the upside here?
You know, and and I think I'vealways carried that ability to
kind of make that switch, beingset up to fail that one burns
(14:32):
for a long time and it's andit's not personal.
It's not a personal burn, butit hits me a lot harder.
And it's not a personal burn,but it hits me a lot harder.
And it's a lot harder for me tofind the lesson there, because
the lesson feels like I gotscrewed instead of oh, there's
(14:52):
the thing that I should takeaway from this.
Tammy (14:56):
And honestly, there's a piece here, you know, I would
tell you, at least from Scott'sand my perspective, we don't
like purposely put this wholebig plan in place for the
learning lesson.
It usually is the decisionsthat the follower has made that
we can see it coming.
(15:19):
Okay, the decisions thatthey've made and the path that
they're going down.
I could, course, correct themand tell them that they're wrong
and that this thing is going tohappen, or I could allow them
to experience it and learn thatthis thing is going to happen.
I will say, scott and I will dothat.
(15:41):
Second thing and, by the way,I'm pretty sure, again, I'm not
a parent, but I'm pretty sureparents have done this forever,
since there's ever been parentsright, as long as it doesn't
result in the death of theirchild, it has some huge
consequence, right, because weoftentimes do learn in these
tougher situations, right, andthat's what we're talking about.
(16:04):
And, yes, we can.
There are a lot of folks whosay you, let me do that, you set
me up.
Actually, you may have setyourself up and we just didn't
stop it from happening.
Karman (16:16):
That's a good distinction, tammy yeah, between
what you allow people to learn,and your comparison to child
raising is a good one.
I'm thinking about when my sondecided to go out for wrestling
in high school.
He'd never wrestled before andI thought this looks like a
(16:37):
disaster headed our way.
But you know, like okay, and hewas super miserable.
And then he had to figure outhow to quit, which was its own
lesson, and and then the coachconvinced him to stay through
the first match or meet.
See, I wasn't even a wrestlingparent long enough to learn the
(17:00):
vocabulary and I said, okay, ifyou, if you hang on through that
, then we can get a dog.
And so that's how my son goingout for wrestling made us dog
parents.
Tammy (17:15):
I love the reward in that , in that spot, and I assume he
lost his first meet and his onlymeet.
Karman (17:27):
Yes, first and only.
And I thought like maybe, okay,well, like maybe after you,
maybe after you have a meet,like you sort of understand the
context for the practicing andthat whatever, and like maybe it
would change his mind.
And at the end of the meet Iwas like so what do you think?
And he was like he did not usethis word to me, but basically
(17:48):
he said I am so f***ing out.
Tammy (17:52):
Well, think about this.
Just the fact that it'swrestling, you're pinned.
I mean talk about losing, Imean in all the ways in life
that you can lose, you literallyare pinned on the mat.
That is like the visual oflosing in that spot.
Oh, poor guy, is probably what?
(18:13):
14, 13, learning this lessonyeah, what uh was he?
Scott (18:17):
was he a what year was he ?
The freshman okay, oh yeah,that's even worse because, yeah,
the upper, the upperclassmenare, are brutal brutal in,
especially in that sport.
Tammy (18:27):
I mean, they're brutal anyway, but in wrestling, oh you
it, they're brutal I don't.
Karman (18:33):
I don't know the young man that he was team partnered
up with for practices, but itseemed like it was always the
same person.
Maybe that's a thing inwrestling Again yeah it's a
weight thing and he really didnot particularly care for his
sparring partner and I think youknow like that's a lot of
(18:57):
intimacy with somebody that youdon't particularly care for, so
I think that probably didn'thelp.
Tammy (19:03):
Do you know that?
It's interesting, carmen, interms of that particular story,
because if you think about yourpin, are you going to get up?
Are you going to?
You know, go at it again.
What are those moments?
You know I told you that my dadwas not a good loser.
(19:23):
If you look at the threechildren that came out of my
parents in a relationship.
My sister never learned to getup right.
When she failed, she failed andshe was done.
She would then go to anotherthing.
She would not stay in thatthing and learn from that thing
(19:44):
versus.
I have had spectacular failuresand I have stayed and I've
continued to step through that.
And it is really interesting tosee how, if you look at it in
your life and look at the peoplearound you, who are the people
who have gotten up, dustedthemselves off, moved forward
(20:04):
and learned right, and who arethe people who then said avoid,
take a left turn, don't go downthis path anymore.
Take a left turn and find outwhat's down that path and just
kind of look at the peoplearound you and where are they
and you know what kind of humanbeings are they and where are
they and what kind of humanbeings are they and where are
they in their growth curve?
I think that if you just satdown and looked at the people
(20:27):
around you, you'd see veryclearly that there is a gift in
the learning if you're willingto learn it.
But it does mean that you'renot looking at what happened out
there, that it happened to you.
The learning is it happened toyou.
The learning is how do I look atthis?
How was I responsible?
What do I need to dodifferently?
(20:49):
And when you are in that kindof learning mode, that is the
place where you're taking stepstowards becoming the full human
being, the full of yourpotential, in your life and
without it and without it,without it, you never reach
(21:09):
those pinnacle moments.
And I think that's what's socool about your statement.
We win, and if you are a humanbeing who says I'm not done yet,
even in your winning you learn.
But you also learn in your, inyour losses.
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