July 9, 2025 • 21 mins
Ever wondered why you rush to judgment, follow trends without thinking, or believe you're always right? You're not alone. In this enlightening conversation, the entire Become More team gathers to unpack the cognitive bias personas introduced in their new book "Think" and confess which bias they most identify with.
Scott humorously embraces being "All-knowing Albert," while Tammy identifies as "Jumping Julia," explaining how quickly jumping to conclusions has been both her superpower and weakness. Karman and Josh connect with "Running Rodney," the bias that manifests as rushing to complete tasks without sufficient thought. The team explores how these mental shortcuts evolved for our survival but can be problematic in modern contexts.
What makes this discussion particularly valuable is the vulnerability shown by each team member. Susan admits that imposter syndrome once made her "Soundbite Steve," adopting others' phrases rather than developing her own thoughts. Marcella shares how making snap judgments gives her comfort when feeling out of control. Michael discusses navigating between industry standards and original thinking as a designer.
The conversation takes a turn when connecting these biases to our relationship with artificial intelligence. In an age where AI can handle routine thinking, our ability to recognize when to use mental shortcuts versus when to engage deeper analysis becomes our competitive advantage.
Your brain developed these shortcuts for good reason, but knowing when they serve you and when they limit you is key to leveling up your thinking. Listen now to discover which cognitive bias persona might be running your thought patterns without you even realizing it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:01):
Hello Tammy and Scott, hello Karman.
Scott (00:06):
C.
Karman (00:09):
And friends and friends.
So, listeners, we are joinedtoday by the entire Become More
staff, well, most.
Tammy (00:20):
We have a couple Oh'm missing, but we have the vast
majority here today.
Karman (00:24):
We've got a lot of guest voices for you to listen to.
Yep, we do so.
We've talked a little bit aboutyour new book for the last
couple of weeks.
I love that.
It's kind of exciting.
It's kind of exciting.
It's kind of exciting.
It's a pretty cool thing andone of the pieces of the book
very early on you lay out acollection of personas that each
(00:50):
tie to a kind of cognitive biasCorrect, and cognitive bias is
like sort of a boring technicalterm.
Tammy (01:00):
Neuroscientists don't think it's boring, but it can be
technical and it's a littleconfusing.
Karman (01:05):
So we created personas to kind of just like help people
understand, yeah, yeah, and Ilove them, and they're each a
really distinct personality.
So what I thought we would dotoday is in a round robin with
all of us staff people togetheris each talk about which of
those personas we kind of likeidentify with, and why that
(01:30):
persona speaks to us or teachesus a lesson or gives us some
insight about ourselves.
Tammy and Scott, do you want tostart?
Tammy (01:39):
Oh, okay, do you have one ?
Scott (01:42):
Oh, absolutely.
Tammy (01:43):
Of course you do.
You probably have all of them.
Scott (01:47):
I've known since we wrote the book it's simple.
Tammy (01:50):
They're all in you.
Scott (01:52):
I'm only one you're only one yes, bob the Brain, that's
not one of the cognitive biaspersonas Scott oh, I'm sorry, I
have none of them which is alsoa lie because all of us those
cognitive biases.
Tammy (02:08):
It's not like hey, like what every person is actually
kind of the way the brain hasevolved.
We have all of those inside ofus, all of them, all of them,
all, of them all of them now.
Some of them may be a littlebit more like, so they may be
prioritized, you might use onemore than others.
Michael (02:26):
Oh, we have a default Kind of sort of.
Tammy (02:29):
It's the stuff that made us safe when we were being
chased by lions.
Scott (02:35):
Are you lying right now?
Tammy (02:38):
You're such a pain in the , the place where the lion bites
you.
Scott (02:44):
You are such a pain in the ass.
You know, if I was going to saywho is mine that I'd probably
default to the most.
Karman (02:51):
Wait, do we get to pick, since you won't?
Oh, yes, you can.
Scott (02:55):
You know, what we ought to do is we ought to vote, and
hold up the sticker.
See, I was going to say.
That's not what I was going tosay.
Jenn (03:02):
This one right there is Mr Bergmeier.
Karman (03:06):
Listeners, you can't see , but we have stickers for each
of the personas, absolutely, andit is so.
That is exactly it Tammy hashanded Scott the sticker for
All-knowing Albert.
Tammy (03:20):
That is Mr Burtman.
Scott (03:22):
See, the problem is I don't see that as a cognitive
bias for me.
I think that is just a fact forme, and we just made the point
of the entire book right there,listeners, please understand.
Tammy (03:34):
There are some of us who, like, think that there's
nothing wrong with thesecognitive biases, and Scott's
just making the point.
I am, I am yes absolutely, I'mjust helping you out.
Scott (03:43):
No, you actually believe it so just there are times I do
believe it, yes, 100.
Tammy (03:50):
So all knowing, elbert, I almost wish now that somehow or
another I'd done that with an aand a and smart oh no, you
could have done smarty pants,scott, that would have been fun
With an A and a smart.
Karman (04:04):
Oh no, you could have done smarty pants, Scott.
We need to call back everyepisode every edition of the
book and rewrite it, just torename
Tammy (04:12):
that one, scott, yeah, or smart ass, scott, smart ass.
It's better than being a dumbass.
Scott (04:17):
That's absolutely true.
That is yes, okay, so yeah,that's mine, what's yours?
Tammy (04:21):
You know um I have had different ones over my life that
kind of oh I know what it is,yeah, so the one that I had when
I was younger, right Was getalong, gary.
So I was like I wanted everybodyto like me and I didn't want to
(04:48):
push any envelopes and I woulddo whatever I thought people
wanted me to do, and that's whatget along Gary's do.
Um, but at this age I am not aget along Gary.
So, um, I think, in all honesty, I am a running Rodney.
So I, um, you know, I hearsomething and I, oh no, I'm
lying, I'm lying.
Scott (04:59):
Is it this one?
Tammy (05:00):
It's jumping.
So Scott just actually wrotedown yeah, something I can't say
, but it made me laugh.
That is terrible.
I'm changing my mind.
Look at me, I'm jumping allover the place.
I'm jumping, julia.
I jump to assumptions pretty,pretty quickly, like you meet
(05:23):
someone and you have that firstkind of gut reaction yeah, I'm,
I'm jumping, julia, that'sthat's where does that serve you
well and where does that get inthe way?
Um, so honestly it's.
I do kind of have a superpowermaybe in that space of reading
people and understanding how tobest interact with them.
(05:47):
That is really good.
With that jumping joy, I'm veryquick to see that.
However, I can also jump toconclusions and jump to the
wrong conclusion wrongconclusion, Right and in doing
that sometimes I may, um, jumptoo quickly and not step back
and think it through about whatthat means.
I just am more reactive in thatspot.
(06:07):
So, yeah, that's a.
Karman (06:09):
That's probably the place that I still struggle with
my cognitive bias and I thinkthat's a great example to just
pull back to like why are wetalking about cognitive biases?
And in a book called think, andthe idea is that these
cognitive biases sometimes,maybe historically, have helped
(06:30):
us process lots of informationwhen there's a lot of
information and they've helpedus do it quickly, but then at
some point they become toodefault and we just stop
thinking.
Scott (06:44):
Well and it probably is fair to say it's we've processed
air quote, processedinformation.
But have we processedinformation?
Because I think that's part ofthe thing is we use some of
these as habits to take in andsuck in a bunch of information
and then we make decisions orhave opinions about whatever the
(07:08):
topic is.
That is not right, which is, Ithink, part of the reason
they're called a bias.
I have this perspective thatmay not be factual.
Tammy (07:23):
We use these biases and they take us to the wrong
conclusion.
And they're there to you know,the reason that we have evolved
this as human beings to havethem is that there was a time
period that we actually neededthem.
They helped us.
It allowed us to be able to dowhatever that thing is.
Unfortunately, if we use themin the wrong places, you know, a
(07:45):
lion is probably not going tojump out and bite me right as
I'm walking down the streets ofWest Des Moines in that spot,
and yet my body is still goingto respond in certain ways to
certain situations in the sameway to try to keep me safe.
And that's what these thingsreally happen.
They are, we create them.
(08:05):
You know the way that we'veevolved over time as human
beings is.
We created these things in away that was really positive.
But if we're using them now ina way that is not positive, it's
not helping us, then we end updoing things that are not good
for us in that particular spot,and that's unfortunately what
most of us done.
You know the way that our worldis today.
(08:27):
We don't need a lot of them.
We needed them then.
We don't need them now.
Karman (08:31):
And I think sometimes we do need them now, and while
their um source is maybe morelike lizard brain you know the
lions after us but there areexperiences we have that show us
that sometimes these habitswork for us and then sometimes
(08:54):
they don't.
So my own is running Rodney, myown is running Rodney and,
(09:18):
after working for you know, manydecades in an industry that was
contracting, my ability to showthat I got stuff done was a
really good coping mechanism anda really good habit.
And I also see now wheresometimes my running rod need
like oh, you want that.
Like oh, yeah, and that I don'task questions or I don't think
it through or I'm not criticalabout it.
Um, that doesn't always serveme well.
Yeah, it's a great example.
Tammy (09:36):
Yeah.
Karman (09:37):
Josh, which one do you identify with?
Josh (09:39):
I might just have to piggyback off of what you said.
I identify as running orathlete two reasons.
First, it's because I'm a trackstar and second, because I do
resonate with the same idea ifthis was an interview setting
and you asked me hey, Joshua,what are your strengths?
I would say yeah, I'm quick onmy feet, I think about stuff
(10:01):
fast, I'm like heavy ondeadlines, and so then that
translates to the persona thatis running Rodney.
So something that could havebeen my strength, if I don't
think about it properly,actually turns into my weakness
if I don't know how to apply it.
Karman (10:17):
Yeah, two sides of the same coin.
Tammy (10:21):
The other side of it is that this persona actually does
look like Josh, so RunningRodney and Josh kind of look
like the same human being.
We actually created thatpersona before we met you.
But you know, you can wear thatas a badge of honor now, here I
am.
Josh (10:37):
You should change the name to Running Joshua.
Tammy (10:40):
Except for you know, they all kind of have this
alliteration, all they do yeahbummer, bummer.
Karman (10:46):
Next job jogging job yeah, jogging or something that
maybe that's fast-paced jogging,john?
Michael (10:52):
oh no, you're making eye contact with Jen.
Jenn (10:57):
Oh, passing the baton, yeah, so I also would pick
jumping Julia.
I think part of it is in mydiscovery calls.
What I've had to learn is keeppeeling back the onion, like I
jumped to conclusion based offof something when really I just
need to keep going deeper andget to the root cause, and
(11:19):
that's what I'm learning and I'mworking on Karman.
Karman (11:22):
I like it.
Are there places where itserves you well?
Um?
Scott (11:29):
Oh gosh, buying 1,072 pairs of shoes 1,072 pairs of
shoes.
Jenn (11:32):
Let's go.
Um, no it.
I can move quickly and I'mrunning here with Josh, but I
think part of it is.
I just need to make sure I hitthe pause button enough to keep
going deep enough, I like that.
Tammy (11:46):
I like that a lot and listeners probably want to know
why she has 1,000, over 1,000pairs of shoes.
It's not because she has a big,huge closet.
Marcela (11:54):
No.
Tammy (11:55):
Actually it's a really, really cool thing that Jen does.
Jen actually every fall notonly gets shoes for kids, but
she also gets backpacks full ofschool supplies for kids and she
helps.
A couple of nonprofits in theAmes area take care of kids who
can't and families who can'tafford to buy that for their
(12:15):
children.
Michael (12:16):
That's amazing.
Tammy (12:17):
It's a really cool thing.
How many backpacks are yougoing to do this?
Jenn (12:19):
year we're going to do 1,700 backpacks and we're going
to do probably about 1,200 pairsof shoes and we're giving them
all away for free.
Tammy (12:26):
Isn't that cool.
Scott (12:27):
Super cool.
Tammy (12:27):
Yeah, it's really neat to have someone in our team that
cares so much about theircommunity.
Jenn (12:33):
And I have a gift of shopping.
So you know what.
Use the gifts that you're given, and she uses other people's
money and it's not my money.
Karman (12:49):
I help organizations buy great products at low prices.
It's awesome.
Susan (12:58):
Susan, which persona do you feel like is speaking to you
, of you?
Yes, so I I've gone back andforth because I can see all of
them in me at times and I feellike I want to relate to running
Rodney, but I want to talkabout it, one that we haven't
talked about as much that I knowI did earlier in my career a
lot which was soundbite Steve,and I think that really came
from a place of having a lot ofimposter syndrome of like I want
to fit in.
(13:18):
So I'm just gonna say, likewhat everyone else says and grab
on to soundbites, that ofpeople that I either looked up
to or worked with a lot, andjust I'm going to say the same
things and I'm not really goingto take the time to think about
what, what does this actuallymean, or how are we going to
apply this in our client work oranything like that.
It was just kind of grabbingonto the catchphrases that other
(13:39):
people said and doing the samething.
Tammy (13:42):
Then you're never wrong, right.
Susan (13:44):
Yes, that's a good point.
I didn't think about it likethat.
Tammy, that's a really goodpoint.
Tammy (13:48):
So if you're saying what other people are saying, it's
just the thing, that's you know,that's fine yeah.
Susan (13:53):
Like I fit in.
I'm never going to create anunpopular opinion Everybody
likes, me.
Scott (13:57):
Yeah, we do Like you, care I.
Susan (14:00):
So that's why it was really hard for me to think
through, because, again, I thinkthere's been projects or phases
or times where I've seen myselfexhibit all of these for sure.
Very relatable, marcella.
Marcela (14:15):
I'll have to choose one that it was already picked,
like Jumping Julia, but mine.
I think that my reasoning comesfrom like the place that like I
feel, like I have no like.
If I have no control, I willjump into conclusions because I
have to know.
Michael (14:28):
Like I, have to know.
Marcela (14:29):
You know what I'm saying like, maybe I think
something's wrong with something.
I'll just make a conclusion towhat that's wrong, because I
feel like I need to have controlof that.
Tammy (14:40):
I think you know what you say there.
That is very true of why peopledo that.
Yeah, and there I have someonein my life that that is exactly
right.
That's thing of if I feel outof control, if I jump in and I
make this thing, this to be true.
Therefore, I don't have toworry about that anymore.
Marcela (14:58):
Yeah, it's like, it's like I want to like judge on
that stuff like someone by itscover, you know, like that
saying, but it's just like Idon't know, know, I just need to
know.
Susan (15:06):
So it's, I jump into the conclusion and then you've
solved it in your brain already,right?
You're like here's theconclusion good, I can move on
and that there's like, exactly,there's like a little piece that
is comforting with that too.
Karman (15:20):
Yeah, I love the self-awareness of that and I
also love how it points out that, um, like we all come to these
things in different ways, likewe have our own, you know,
childhood experiences and earlyjob experiences, and like there
are lots of reasons but the sameactions and biases still show
(15:45):
up, you know, pretty universally, absolutely.
Michael (15:48):
Yeah, all right, I'm up .
All right, michael, you're up.
That's me.
So I'm going to do what wehaven't talked about yet Carry
the trend follower.
You know, in an industry likegraphic design or like when you
work with things like that,there's so many like standards
and kind of rules that youfollow, but it gets to a point
(16:11):
where it can become like almostlike a cookie cutter design.
So like, yeah, it served mewell in certain ways.
You know I'm not using comicsans and papyrus, like it's 2008
, but there's like.
There's a difference betweenbetween kind of like having your
own style and following thattrend.
So like it's it's.
It's a hard line to like tofollow yeah, I love it.
Scott (16:26):
this episode brought to you by comic sans, so like it's
it's, it's a hard line to liketo follow.
Jenn (16:28):
Yeah, this episode brought to you by Comic Sans.
Scott (16:34):
I did not expect that out of his mouth, serving designers
since 2008.
Susan (16:39):
I was going to say, like every graphic designer, every
marketing guru is going to justdie.
Michael (16:46):
No, but it's always like.
It's always like the advice.
Here are these five things youshould be doing as a graphic
designer.
And it's like always, it'salways the same bull Like.
Sorry, oh my bad, but yeah, youknow what I mean.
Karman (16:59):
Yeah, it is that fine line to walk in lots of careers
where you need to be on trend,like, but maybe just enough off
trend to not be doing whateverybody else is doing
Differentiate identify.
Michael (17:15):
yeah.
Tammy (17:16):
The follower versus the leader, that other spot.
Or making decisions not basedupon just following but, based
upon what's best in thesituation and that spot, and
really, in the end, thesepersonas, it's just a sampling
of the cognitive biases that areout there, and the fact of the
matter is, is that all of thebiases that are there,
(17:38):
oftentimes, you know, yeah, asKarman, like you said, they have
served us.
They're there for a reason.
If we had to think throughabsolutely everything every time
, it would slow us down as humanbeings, and so this is like the
shortcuts, right, and thatthat's what they were there for
it's to shortcut it so we canget from here to there faster,
(17:59):
right?
And in the world of AI, where wecan let AI think for us, we
have to recognize that if wedon't go beyond what we can ask
(18:20):
a question about to get ananswer, if we are not taking
ourselves and thinking thatthrough and processing in that
we're not going to differentiateourselves.
Pretty soon we're all going tobe Terry the Trendsman.
Pretty soon.
The answers are there and ourbrains don't have to decide this
one over that Somebody elsewould do that for us.
And in that spot, companiescan't afford that.
We can't afford to just havesomething else do our thinking
(18:44):
for us.
We need to tap into thiswonderful thing between our ears
and make it work for us asindividuals, make it work for us
as a team and make it work forus as an organization, and if we
aren't doing that, we're notbecoming the best of what we
could be.
Scott (19:03):
And I think the other piece I would add is, if we
really want to be the best ofthe best, it's about saying
where do I use these and get theoutcome I need to?
That's speed, go there now,right.
Go there now, right, go therenow.
And where do I not use these tolevel up as an individual, as a
(19:23):
team, as an organization?
Because that's really where thedifferentiation comes Correct.
It's not saying AI is bad, it'ssaying where are you using that
to solve little things that arelower level thinking,
repetitive tasks, those kinds ofthings.
And then how are we reallydifferentiating ourselves as an
(19:43):
individual, a team and as anorganization?
Tammy (19:45):
Absolutely and that spot and remembering that, truly,
this gift of this brain, bob thebrain, right, each of us have
this gift of this brain, bob thebrain, right, each of us have
this gift.
Yes, you are a gift.
Don't look a gift horse in themouth.
(20:06):
Yeah, I'm not.
Trust me Totally, totally.
Set yourself up.
But in that space, if we, ifyou don't use it, you lose it,
right, and I think it's veryeasy and we kind of slide into
this place where we're justreacting, you know, and it's
that spot that's.
(20:26):
There are places in time forthat right, and where are the
places and spaces that would bereally important for us to go
beyond that right and choosethose time periods so that we
can become more, in all honesty,in that space.
And so, again, just becausewe're saying cognitive biases
(20:47):
doesn't mean they're bad,doesn't mean that right, they're
not.
It's part of who we are, ithelps us in many ways and let's
continue to exercise that thingbetween our ears.
Hello Tammy and Scott, hello Karman.
Scott (00:06):
C.
Karman (00:09):
And friends and friends.
So, listeners, we are joinedtoday by the entire Become More
staff, well, most.
Tammy (00:20):
We have a couple Oh'm missing, but we have the vast
majority here today.
Karman (00:24):
We've got a lot of guest voices for you to listen to.
Yep, we do so.
We've talked a little bit aboutyour new book for the last
couple of weeks.
I love that.
It's kind of exciting.
It's kind of exciting.
It's kind of exciting.
It's a pretty cool thing andone of the pieces of the book
very early on you lay out acollection of personas that each
(00:50):
tie to a kind of cognitive biasCorrect, and cognitive bias is
like sort of a boring technicalterm.
Tammy (01:00):
Neuroscientists don't think it's boring, but it can be
technical and it's a littleconfusing.
Karman (01:05):
So we created personas to kind of just like help people
understand, yeah, yeah, and Ilove them, and they're each a
really distinct personality.
So what I thought we would dotoday is in a round robin with
all of us staff people togetheris each talk about which of
those personas we kind of likeidentify with, and why that
(01:30):
persona speaks to us or teachesus a lesson or gives us some
insight about ourselves.
Tammy and Scott, do you want tostart?
Tammy (01:39):
Oh, okay, do you have one ?
Scott (01:42):
Oh, absolutely.
Tammy (01:43):
Of course you do.
You probably have all of them.
Scott (01:47):
I've known since we wrote the book it's simple.
Tammy (01:50):
They're all in you.
Scott (01:52):
I'm only one you're only one yes, bob the Brain, that's
not one of the cognitive biaspersonas Scott oh, I'm sorry, I
have none of them which is alsoa lie because all of us those
cognitive biases.
Tammy (02:08):
It's not like hey, like what every person is actually
kind of the way the brain hasevolved.
We have all of those inside ofus, all of them, all of them,
all, of them all of them now.
Some of them may be a littlebit more like, so they may be
prioritized, you might use onemore than others.
Michael (02:26):
Oh, we have a default Kind of sort of.
Tammy (02:29):
It's the stuff that made us safe when we were being
chased by lions.
Scott (02:35):
Are you lying right now?
Tammy (02:38):
You're such a pain in the , the place where the lion bites
you.
Scott (02:44):
You are such a pain in the ass.
You know, if I was going to saywho is mine that I'd probably
default to the most.
Karman (02:51):
Wait, do we get to pick, since you won't?
Oh, yes, you can.
Scott (02:55):
You know, what we ought to do is we ought to vote, and
hold up the sticker.
See, I was going to say.
That's not what I was going tosay.
Jenn (03:02):
This one right there is Mr Bergmeier.
Karman (03:06):
Listeners, you can't see , but we have stickers for each
of the personas, absolutely, andit is so.
That is exactly it Tammy hashanded Scott the sticker for
All-knowing Albert.
Tammy (03:20):
That is Mr Burtman.
Scott (03:22):
See, the problem is I don't see that as a cognitive
bias for me.
I think that is just a fact forme, and we just made the point
of the entire book right there,listeners, please understand.
Tammy (03:34):
There are some of us who, like, think that there's
nothing wrong with thesecognitive biases, and Scott's
just making the point.
I am, I am yes absolutely, I'mjust helping you out.
Scott (03:43):
No, you actually believe it so just there are times I do
believe it, yes, 100.
Tammy (03:50):
So all knowing, elbert, I almost wish now that somehow or
another I'd done that with an aand a and smart oh no, you
could have done smarty pants,scott, that would have been fun
With an A and a smart.
Karman (04:04):
Oh no, you could have done smarty pants, Scott.
We need to call back everyepisode every edition of the
book and rewrite it, just torename
Tammy (04:12):
that one, scott, yeah, or smart ass, scott, smart ass.
It's better than being a dumbass.
Scott (04:17):
That's absolutely true.
That is yes, okay, so yeah,that's mine, what's yours?
Tammy (04:21):
You know um I have had different ones over my life that
kind of oh I know what it is,yeah, so the one that I had when
I was younger, right Was getalong, gary.
So I was like I wanted everybodyto like me and I didn't want to
(04:48):
push any envelopes and I woulddo whatever I thought people
wanted me to do, and that's whatget along Gary's do.
Um, but at this age I am not aget along Gary.
So, um, I think, in all honesty, I am a running Rodney.
So I, um, you know, I hearsomething and I, oh no, I'm
lying, I'm lying.
Scott (04:59):
Is it this one?
Tammy (05:00):
It's jumping.
So Scott just actually wrotedown yeah, something I can't say
, but it made me laugh.
That is terrible.
I'm changing my mind.
Look at me, I'm jumping allover the place.
I'm jumping, julia.
I jump to assumptions pretty,pretty quickly, like you meet
(05:23):
someone and you have that firstkind of gut reaction yeah, I'm,
I'm jumping, julia, that'sthat's where does that serve you
well and where does that get inthe way?
Um, so honestly it's.
I do kind of have a superpowermaybe in that space of reading
people and understanding how tobest interact with them.
(05:47):
That is really good.
With that jumping joy, I'm veryquick to see that.
However, I can also jump toconclusions and jump to the
wrong conclusion wrongconclusion, Right and in doing
that sometimes I may, um, jumptoo quickly and not step back
and think it through about whatthat means.
I just am more reactive in thatspot.
(06:07):
So, yeah, that's a.
Karman (06:09):
That's probably the place that I still struggle with
my cognitive bias and I thinkthat's a great example to just
pull back to like why are wetalking about cognitive biases?
And in a book called think, andthe idea is that these
cognitive biases sometimes,maybe historically, have helped
(06:30):
us process lots of informationwhen there's a lot of
information and they've helpedus do it quickly, but then at
some point they become toodefault and we just stop
thinking.
Scott (06:44):
Well and it probably is fair to say it's we've processed
air quote, processedinformation.
But have we processedinformation?
Because I think that's part ofthe thing is we use some of
these as habits to take in andsuck in a bunch of information
and then we make decisions orhave opinions about whatever the
(07:08):
topic is.
That is not right, which is, Ithink, part of the reason
they're called a bias.
I have this perspective thatmay not be factual.
Tammy (07:23):
We use these biases and they take us to the wrong
conclusion.
And they're there to you know,the reason that we have evolved
this as human beings to havethem is that there was a time
period that we actually neededthem.
They helped us.
It allowed us to be able to dowhatever that thing is.
Unfortunately, if we use themin the wrong places, you know, a
(07:45):
lion is probably not going tojump out and bite me right as
I'm walking down the streets ofWest Des Moines in that spot,
and yet my body is still goingto respond in certain ways to
certain situations in the sameway to try to keep me safe.
And that's what these thingsreally happen.
They are, we create them.
(08:05):
You know the way that we'veevolved over time as human
beings is.
We created these things in away that was really positive.
But if we're using them now ina way that is not positive, it's
not helping us, then we end updoing things that are not good
for us in that particular spot,and that's unfortunately what
most of us done.
You know the way that our worldis today.
(08:27):
We don't need a lot of them.
We needed them then.
We don't need them now.
Karman (08:31):
And I think sometimes we do need them now, and while
their um source is maybe morelike lizard brain you know the
lions after us but there areexperiences we have that show us
that sometimes these habitswork for us and then sometimes
(08:54):
they don't.
So my own is running Rodney, myown is running Rodney and,
(09:18):
after working for you know, manydecades in an industry that was
contracting, my ability to showthat I got stuff done was a
really good coping mechanism anda really good habit.
And I also see now wheresometimes my running rod need
like oh, you want that.
Like oh, yeah, and that I don'task questions or I don't think
it through or I'm not criticalabout it.
Um, that doesn't always serveme well.
Yeah, it's a great example.
Tammy (09:36):
Yeah.
Karman (09:37):
Josh, which one do you identify with?
Josh (09:39):
I might just have to piggyback off of what you said.
I identify as running orathlete two reasons.
First, it's because I'm a trackstar and second, because I do
resonate with the same idea ifthis was an interview setting
and you asked me hey, Joshua,what are your strengths?
I would say yeah, I'm quick onmy feet, I think about stuff
(10:01):
fast, I'm like heavy ondeadlines, and so then that
translates to the persona thatis running Rodney.
So something that could havebeen my strength, if I don't
think about it properly,actually turns into my weakness
if I don't know how to apply it.
Karman (10:17):
Yeah, two sides of the same coin.
Tammy (10:21):
The other side of it is that this persona actually does
look like Josh, so RunningRodney and Josh kind of look
like the same human being.
We actually created thatpersona before we met you.
But you know, you can wear thatas a badge of honor now, here I
am.
Josh (10:37):
You should change the name to Running Joshua.
Tammy (10:40):
Except for you know, they all kind of have this
alliteration, all they do yeahbummer, bummer.
Karman (10:46):
Next job jogging job yeah, jogging or something that
maybe that's fast-paced jogging,john?
Michael (10:52):
oh no, you're making eye contact with Jen.
Jenn (10:57):
Oh, passing the baton, yeah, so I also would pick
jumping Julia.
I think part of it is in mydiscovery calls.
What I've had to learn is keeppeeling back the onion, like I
jumped to conclusion based offof something when really I just
need to keep going deeper andget to the root cause, and
(11:19):
that's what I'm learning and I'mworking on Karman.
Karman (11:22):
I like it.
Are there places where itserves you well?
Um?
Scott (11:29):
Oh gosh, buying 1,072 pairs of shoes 1,072 pairs of
shoes.
Jenn (11:32):
Let's go.
Um, no it.
I can move quickly and I'mrunning here with Josh, but I
think part of it is.
I just need to make sure I hitthe pause button enough to keep
going deep enough, I like that.
Tammy (11:46):
I like that a lot and listeners probably want to know
why she has 1,000, over 1,000pairs of shoes.
It's not because she has a big,huge closet.
Marcela (11:54):
No.
Tammy (11:55):
Actually it's a really, really cool thing that Jen does.
Jen actually every fall notonly gets shoes for kids, but
she also gets backpacks full ofschool supplies for kids and she
helps.
A couple of nonprofits in theAmes area take care of kids who
can't and families who can'tafford to buy that for their
(12:15):
children.
Michael (12:16):
That's amazing.
Tammy (12:17):
It's a really cool thing.
How many backpacks are yougoing to do this?
Jenn (12:19):
year we're going to do 1,700 backpacks and we're going
to do probably about 1,200 pairsof shoes and we're giving them
all away for free.
Tammy (12:26):
Isn't that cool.
Scott (12:27):
Super cool.
Tammy (12:27):
Yeah, it's really neat to have someone in our team that
cares so much about theircommunity.
Jenn (12:33):
And I have a gift of shopping.
So you know what.
Use the gifts that you're given, and she uses other people's
money and it's not my money.
Karman (12:49):
I help organizations buy great products at low prices.
It's awesome.
Susan (12:58):
Susan, which persona do you feel like is speaking to you
, of you?
Yes, so I I've gone back andforth because I can see all of
them in me at times and I feellike I want to relate to running
Rodney, but I want to talkabout it, one that we haven't
talked about as much that I knowI did earlier in my career a
lot which was soundbite Steve,and I think that really came
from a place of having a lot ofimposter syndrome of like I want
to fit in.
(13:18):
So I'm just gonna say, likewhat everyone else says and grab
on to soundbites, that ofpeople that I either looked up
to or worked with a lot, andjust I'm going to say the same
things and I'm not really goingto take the time to think about
what, what does this actuallymean, or how are we going to
apply this in our client work oranything like that.
It was just kind of grabbingonto the catchphrases that other
(13:39):
people said and doing the samething.
Tammy (13:42):
Then you're never wrong, right.
Susan (13:44):
Yes, that's a good point.
I didn't think about it likethat.
Tammy, that's a really goodpoint.
Tammy (13:48):
So if you're saying what other people are saying, it's
just the thing, that's you know,that's fine yeah.
Susan (13:53):
Like I fit in.
I'm never going to create anunpopular opinion Everybody
likes, me.
Scott (13:57):
Yeah, we do Like you, care I.
Susan (14:00):
So that's why it was really hard for me to think
through, because, again, I thinkthere's been projects or phases
or times where I've seen myselfexhibit all of these for sure.
Very relatable, marcella.
Marcela (14:15):
I'll have to choose one that it was already picked,
like Jumping Julia, but mine.
I think that my reasoning comesfrom like the place that like I
feel, like I have no like.
If I have no control, I willjump into conclusions because I
have to know.
Michael (14:28):
Like I, have to know.
Marcela (14:29):
You know what I'm saying like, maybe I think
something's wrong with something.
I'll just make a conclusion towhat that's wrong, because I
feel like I need to have controlof that.
Tammy (14:40):
I think you know what you say there.
That is very true of why peopledo that.
Yeah, and there I have someonein my life that that is exactly
right.
That's thing of if I feel outof control, if I jump in and I
make this thing, this to be true.
Therefore, I don't have toworry about that anymore.
Marcela (14:58):
Yeah, it's like, it's like I want to like judge on
that stuff like someone by itscover, you know, like that
saying, but it's just like Idon't know, know, I just need to
know.
Susan (15:06):
So it's, I jump into the conclusion and then you've
solved it in your brain already,right?
You're like here's theconclusion good, I can move on
and that there's like, exactly,there's like a little piece that
is comforting with that too.
Karman (15:20):
Yeah, I love the self-awareness of that and I
also love how it points out that, um, like we all come to these
things in different ways, likewe have our own, you know,
childhood experiences and earlyjob experiences, and like there
are lots of reasons but the sameactions and biases still show
(15:45):
up, you know, pretty universally, absolutely.
Michael (15:48):
Yeah, all right, I'm up .
All right, michael, you're up.
That's me.
So I'm going to do what wehaven't talked about yet Carry
the trend follower.
You know, in an industry likegraphic design or like when you
work with things like that,there's so many like standards
and kind of rules that youfollow, but it gets to a point
(16:11):
where it can become like almostlike a cookie cutter design.
So like, yeah, it served mewell in certain ways.
You know I'm not using comicsans and papyrus, like it's 2008
, but there's like.
There's a difference betweenbetween kind of like having your
own style and following thattrend.
So like it's it's.
It's a hard line to like tofollow yeah, I love it.
Scott (16:26):
this episode brought to you by comic sans, so like it's
it's, it's a hard line to liketo follow.
Jenn (16:28):
Yeah, this episode brought to you by Comic Sans.
Scott (16:34):
I did not expect that out of his mouth, serving designers
since 2008.
Susan (16:39):
I was going to say, like every graphic designer, every
marketing guru is going to justdie.
Michael (16:46):
No, but it's always like.
It's always like the advice.
Here are these five things youshould be doing as a graphic
designer.
And it's like always, it'salways the same bull Like.
Sorry, oh my bad, but yeah, youknow what I mean.
Karman (16:59):
Yeah, it is that fine line to walk in lots of careers
where you need to be on trend,like, but maybe just enough off
trend to not be doing whateverybody else is doing
Differentiate identify.
Michael (17:15):
yeah.
Tammy (17:16):
The follower versus the leader, that other spot.
Or making decisions not basedupon just following but, based
upon what's best in thesituation and that spot, and
really, in the end, thesepersonas, it's just a sampling
of the cognitive biases that areout there, and the fact of the
matter is, is that all of thebiases that are there,
(17:38):
oftentimes, you know, yeah, asKarman, like you said, they have
served us.
They're there for a reason.
If we had to think throughabsolutely everything every time
, it would slow us down as humanbeings, and so this is like the
shortcuts, right, and thatthat's what they were there for
it's to shortcut it so we canget from here to there faster,
(17:59):
right?
And in the world of AI, where wecan let AI think for us, we
have to recognize that if wedon't go beyond what we can ask
(18:20):
a question about to get ananswer, if we are not taking
ourselves and thinking thatthrough and processing in that
we're not going to differentiateourselves.
Pretty soon we're all going tobe Terry the Trendsman.
Pretty soon.
The answers are there and ourbrains don't have to decide this
one over that Somebody elsewould do that for us.
And in that spot, companiescan't afford that.
We can't afford to just havesomething else do our thinking
(18:44):
for us.
We need to tap into thiswonderful thing between our ears
and make it work for us asindividuals, make it work for us
as a team and make it work forus as an organization, and if we
aren't doing that, we're notbecoming the best of what we
could be.
Scott (19:03):
And I think the other piece I would add is, if we
really want to be the best ofthe best, it's about saying
where do I use these and get theoutcome I need to?
That's speed, go there now,right.
Go there now, right, go therenow.
And where do I not use these tolevel up as an individual, as a
(19:23):
team, as an organization?
Because that's really where thedifferentiation comes Correct.
It's not saying AI is bad, it'ssaying where are you using that
to solve little things that arelower level thinking,
repetitive tasks, those kinds ofthings.
And then how are we reallydifferentiating ourselves as an
(19:43):
individual, a team and as anorganization?
Tammy (19:45):
Absolutely and that spot and remembering that, truly,
this gift of this brain, bob thebrain, right, each of us have
this gift of this brain, bob thebrain, right, each of us have
this gift.
Yes, you are a gift.
Don't look a gift horse in themouth.
(20:06):
Yeah, I'm not.
Trust me Totally, totally.
Set yourself up.
But in that space, if we, ifyou don't use it, you lose it,
right, and I think it's veryeasy and we kind of slide into
this place where we're justreacting, you know, and it's
that spot that's.
(20:26):
There are places in time forthat right, and where are the
places and spaces that would bereally important for us to go
beyond that right and choosethose time periods so that we
can become more, in all honesty,in that space.
And so, again, just becausewe're saying cognitive biases
(20:47):
doesn't mean they're bad,doesn't mean that right, they're
not.
It's part of who we are, ithelps us in many ways and let's
continue to exercise that thingbetween our ears.
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