September 10, 2025 • 20 mins
Have you ever felt trapped in your career, wondering if the only way up is out? This candid conversation delves into the fascinating dynamics of succession planning and career advancement within organizations.
We tackle the uncomfortable truth many professionals face: the perception that meaningful career advancement often requires leaving your current employer. Our discussion explores how different organizational structures impact growth opportunities – from learning-focused environments that nurture talent to rigid hierarchies that box employees into limited roles. You'll discover why some companies struggle with internal advancement, whether due to size constraints, leadership philosophies, or traditional career path requirements.
The conversation introduces a practical framework for understanding talent management: the "buy, build, boost, or boot" approach. We examine the financial realities driving career decisions, including the uncomfortable fact that external hires typically command higher salaries than internally promoted employees. This salary disparity explains why strategic job-hopping often results in higher lifetime earnings than company loyalty.
Beyond compensation, we explore what truly creates career satisfaction. While fair pay matters, meaningful work, mutual appreciation between employee and employer, and continuous skill development prove far more powerful for long-term fulfillment. For those feeling pigeonholed, we offer actionable strategies to break free – including proactively developing skills your organization will need before they ask for them.
Whether you're considering your next career move or building a more effective talent development strategy for your team, this episode provides fresh perspectives on creating meaningful growth without necessarily changing employers. What steps will you take to ensure your career path reflects your true potential?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karman (00:00):
Good morning Scott and Tammy Morning Karman.
Scott just like mocked me, Ithink visually.
Tammy (00:10):
He's such a nice man.
Scott (00:12):
I am, I was well.
I was trying to talk over Tammytoo.
Tammy (00:17):
You want to go first, Scott?
Scott (00:19):
Done.
I was trying to be efficientuse of our time Got it.
If we said if Tammy and I bothsaid good morning at the same
time, done it's a done deal.
Karman (00:31):
Right no wasted excellence there.
You guys just talksimultaneously.
Let zoom pick out which voiceit's going to record.
And sort of like a like oh, Ican fix that, scott just put
Tammy on mute.
And sort of like like oh, I canfix that, scott just put.
Tammy (00:48):
Tammy on mute.
It's true, it's true.
And you know, I'm sure Scottthinks that his opinions are the
best, so that's how he does it.
He has to force it.
Scott (01:00):
It's not about the best or the worst, it's just about
who's normally right.
Tammy (01:04):
Oh yeah, you guys all heard it right there.
I mean, I'm telling you, itjust happens.
Your head is so big I can'teven believe, like you can fit
in your office.
Scott (01:19):
It is a struggle.
Sometimes I have to turnsideways.
Karman (01:23):
But it is Speaking of perceptions.
You know how you and anyindividual gets perceived within
their organization starts toaffect what their opportunities
are, what projects, what newjobs you know come along and are
(01:43):
offered to them.
Sometimes people have trouble.
Maybe they've been pigeonholedor feel pigeonholed in a
particular way and want toreinvent themselves.
And so my question today issort of about succession
planning and opportunities whenyou're within an organization
(02:08):
and I think there's a little bitof a perception sometimes that
you have to leave anorganization to really move up
or like to really be appreciated, maybe even to come back at
some point, but that you'llnever like really move much more
than a step or two withoutstepping outside first.
(02:30):
Do you see that happening andis there a solution?
Should there be a solution?
Should people just accept likeI'm going to have to leave if I
want to be the CEO?
Tammy (02:50):
if I want to be the CEO, Karman.
I think this is interestingbecause I think there's so many
pieces of this and ways to delveinto it, and one of them is an
organizational issue.
Okay, so there areorganizations that struggle with
(03:13):
being able to like,intentionally, be a learning
organization where we can givepeople opportunities to continue
to say what's my next learningpiece, what's my next learning
piece?
What's my next learning piece,my next learning piece, what's
my next learning piece?
And in that space, when we donot intentionally and
thoughtfully and purposefullycreate a learning organization
where people can expand andbecome more than they were
(03:34):
before, right, then we have atendency to look at people, put
them in boxes and say this isall they're good for, right,
we're not teaching leaders howto develop people, we're not
making spaces and places forpeople to progress inside the
organization, all those types ofthings.
And sometimes you know that's.
You can be a huge, largeorganization with tons of
(03:57):
internal promotion opportunitiesand still be this place where
you know, I'm sorry, you are notin production, so therefore you
can only go this far or you'reonly in this department.
You can't cross and expand intoanother area.
We see a lot of organizationswho are super rigid like that.
We also see small organizationswhere there's not a lot of you
(04:18):
know.
Hey, we're an organization of30.
There's not a ton of internalpromotion at the top, because
maybe some of our top people arein their forties and fifties
and they, you know, they havethe next 10 years and you're
going to be ready before that 10years up.
So I mean, it depends on wherethe organization is at and those
(04:39):
types of things.
So let's just kind of set thatinside and say, hey, if an
organization is one wherethere's places to go and they're
interested in developingindividuals and not putting them
in these boxes, then we havesomething we can work with.
Scott (04:56):
And I think there's a conversation or a organizational
philosophy that you want to beable to determine, because it is
this, you know, as Karmantalked about succession plan, it
is this what is our philosophyon how we're going to grow
people.
So, is it Tammy to your point?
(05:18):
Is it we're going to be rigid?
I worked for an organizationthat, once you hit, if you
wanted to go into a certain roleor above, you had to have
experience in another countrybecause it was a global company
and they wanted you to have thatexperience.
If you wanted to move up, ifyou wanted to be a plant manager
, you had to have worked in twoor more different facilities.
(05:43):
Now, again, I find those rulesfascinating to me, because what
you're saying is I'm incompetentof learning what I need to
learn unless I'm working in thatfacility which I could get.
Someone that experience in lotsof ways may or may not be
(06:07):
saying go uproot your family togo over there.
Now I also think there'sinherent risk of an organization
where the only place you'veever worked or seen is that one
place, place because you couldbecome in, you know, a corporate
(06:29):
inbreeding place, which is notalso not good.
Tammy (06:32):
Well, I'm working with an organization right now small
executive team there's, I thinksix or seven of them.
Three of them have been insidethat organization for more than
30 years and have never workedanyplace else.
Scott (06:49):
Yeah.
Tammy (06:49):
And they're having a hard time because they're like we're
awesome and don't get me wrong,I'm sure that they are good.
Okay, I'm not going to be theone that says that they're not.
However, they have noexperience to know if they're
good or not.
There's nothing to compare itagainst and they're very tied to
(07:10):
status quo.
The way we've done it is theway that it needs to be done
into the future.
So if it's this internal, ifeverything is internal, you're
not willing to buy talent iesomeone who already has the
skill set and bring them in andyou have to pay more for them
because they have that skill set.
You buy the talent, okay, orthen build or boost.
(07:32):
That's taking talent internallyinside the organization and
building and boosting thattalent right.
So those are kind of those twooptions of how do we promote and
then are you getting rid of,are you booting talent?
That isn't great and thatbecomes believe it or not,
(07:53):
another question in this wholething about promotions and
succession planning.
Because if you're not bootingtalent, you are carrying dead
weight, and so this is kind ofan interesting thing Buy, build
or boost.
Build and boost right or boot.
You kind of have to have thoseBs in place in order for you to
(08:14):
be able to know kind of howwe're working with talent inside
of an organization.
Scott (08:20):
And I think the reality is you're going to buy it or
you're going to buy it.
I mean, you're paying for iteither way.
So if I go externally and I'mgoing to hire someone with that
talent, I likely am going to paya premium.
Tammy (08:33):
Premium correct.
That's why I mean buy yeah.
Scott (08:37):
Or if I'm going to grow that talent it is going to cost
me.
In my experience, when you kindof do the math, it's about the
same.
I mean I don't know that yousave any more money or not.
I think it's just how much timedo you have?
If you have time, you're likelybetter off growing it.
(08:57):
If you don't have time oh, Ican't wait, I don't have two
years Then you're likely betteroff just buying it outright.
Tammy (09:07):
And the piece about that is then we're looking at that
build or boost spot.
Okay, that time, as an employeeto go back to what Karman's
talking about if we have anorganization that is willing to
build and or boost someone inthat spot, as an employee, what
are you doing to put yourself ina spot that says they're going
(09:33):
to see me as someone who'scontinuing to level up, they're
going to see me as that personthat they're willing to invest
in?
And there's a lot of timeswhere employees are like feed me
, feed me, feed me, give me thetraining, give me the training,
give me the training, give methe experiences.
Yes, okay, it's important thatan organization does develop
(09:55):
their staff, but if you want tonot be put in a box, what are
you doing to develop your ownset of skills?
Right, how are you bringinglike to the table your learning
experiences?
Where are you going to get someof those learning experiences?
Where are you going to get someof those learning experiences?
And it doesn't have to beformal education, don't get me
wrong.
Getting you know, getting adegree, getting a master's
(10:17):
degree, getting a PhD, that'sall fine and dandy.
Ultimately, though, what's theskill set that this organization
is going to need in three yearsand are you going after it?
And in technology, that'sreally something that we've seen
smart technologists do.
They see that next piece ofsoftware, they see that next you
(10:39):
know coding language, they seewhatever that, and they go out
and they learn those skills.
So then, when the organizationadopts it, they already know how
to do that right.
And I think that is one of thesecrets if you want to not be
put in the box.
What is the additional skillset that you are going after?
Not that the organization isgiving you.
(11:00):
You are going after it yourselfbecause you're saying I want
that job and that job is goingto need this particular skill
set.
How am I going to get it?
Karman (11:11):
The other thing I want to clarify here is, if I'm
hearing you right, if I'm anindividual, it sounds like I can
make more money if I'm theoutside hire than if I've stuck
around and grown within.
Tammy (11:30):
C, that is a painful truth.
That is not a myth.
You know, organizations, if wethink about it historically,
somewhere in that 3% range rateis kind of the increase inside
of organizations is kind of theincrease inside of organizations
(11:53):
.
And if money is your gig andyou are going to stay inside of
an organization and you kind ofget that 3%, 3%, 3%, now I'm
going to take that promotion.
Maybe it's a boost of 10%.
However, we do know, justlooking at kind of the research,
that if you stay inside theorganization, your salary over
your career is going to be lowerthan that person who leaves
(12:13):
every couple of years, which iswhy people leave.
Okay, money is important to themand their times in your life
becomes even more and more andmore and more important.
We actually lost a staff memberthis spring because they were
in a transition in life.
Right, they're in a place wherethey're starting a family.
And when you're starting afamily and you're like, hey, I'm
(12:34):
going to have a little one andit's my first time and I have,
I'm going to put that kid indaycare and I need a crib and I
need this and I need that.
You never had all that stuffbefore.
Money's talking to you thatstuff before money's talking to
you, and so that is one of theplaces where we see people.
They're like you can almostanticipate that there's going to
(12:56):
be a job change in their familyone way or another, because
ultimately, that's what'simportant right now, but that is
unfortunately Now.
Can companies combat that?
You can.
Who are your superstars?
Who are your high potentials?
Are you providing them with theexperiences that they need for
(13:20):
those promotions?
Are you clearly puttingtogether a career path for them
and are you willing to do morethan that typical 3% right?
What are you doing to help themboost their financial success?
And that's not an easy thing todo.
Scott (13:41):
Yeah, I probably react a little bit because pay is such a
hot topic and I know we spenttime at our retreat last year
talking about our compphilosophy and I know sometimes
people don't agree with thatright and you know so to me that
(14:02):
whether it's 3% or 5% or 0%, Idon't know, for my superstars,
Tammy, are you going to overpayyour superstars versus the role
they're in today?
Tammy (14:20):
So this is a really great question and it's a painful one
because there's two sides ofthis.
Right now they're contributingat this level.
Okay, they actually, we can seetheir potential, but they're
not there yet.
They're in that learning curve.
Oftentimes they know thatthey're better than their peers
(14:45):
and they want to be paid betterthan the current job that
they're in because they knowthat they're better than their
peers.
And yet this is what the job.
If you look and you do kind ofthe comp studies, it fits in
there right.
And it is a piece whereoftentimes people, not just
(15:05):
superstars are going to leavebecause the financial
compensation is better over here.
Scott (15:14):
Which may or may not be a similar job.
Tammy (15:18):
Correct.
And here's the other pieceabout that Okay, is money a
satisfier?
Is money the thing that isgoing to make someone like, say,
I am in the right place, doingthe right thing?
And what we we know is thatmoney actually is the
(15:38):
dissatisfier.
Okay, oftentimes, money isabout comparing your, your
income, to somebody else'sincome, and anytime you're in
this place where you'recomparison, comparing yourself
against somebody else, you'regoing to lose.
There's always going to besomeone taller.
There's always going to besomeone smarter.
There's always going to besomeone faster.
(15:59):
There's always going to besomeone right, always.
You can watch this inprofessional sports, right, you
have, I'll just use football,because that's my sport you can
look at.
You know who makes who's thenumber one quarterback in the
NFL?
Okay, and it's like they'remaking X, y, z millions of
(16:22):
dollars per game that they play.
Okay, now let's just talk aboutthat for a minute.
Millions of dollars per game.
Does anybody really needmillions of dollars per game?
Scott (16:33):
No, Need yes, yes.
Tammy (16:37):
Want?
Yes, right, and the wantoftentimes comes from well, I am
number one, I should be paidmore than number two, okay.
Well, then the rankings changeand then number two becomes
number one for a year and theynow they need more money.
And then we have the nextperson and the next thing we do
is we do play this game and oursalaries just get completely and
(17:01):
totally out of whack, becauseyou have to prove to me that I
am, fill in the blank, betterthan the person that's standing
next to me.
You know what my guess is takethe money out of that.
Are you loving playing football?
Okay.
Are you loving playing thesport?
Is it something that brings youjoy?
(17:21):
I'm going to ask you that samequestion.
Take it out of sports now.
Are you loving your job or areyou working for the paycheck?
And in that space, I think wedo know that, long term, if
you're not being paid a fairwage, that's one thing, okay,
but money does not make youhappy.
Your salary does not say I lovethis work.
(17:44):
I want to work for thisparticular company?
Okay, it is not the thing thatbrings you peace inside.
So what is that Typically workthat you love?
Okay.
An organization that thinksyou're all that in a bag of
chips and you think that theorganization is all that in a
(18:04):
bag of chips, right.
And so there's this mutualappreciation back and forth,
where they know that we are goodtogether, right?
So knowing that you love thework, knowing that you're
appreciated for the work thatyou are doing, and then, believe
it or not, continuing to growand expand.
People get very unsatisfied ifthey're stuck in this place
(18:26):
where they're not.
Let's go back to Karman'squestion succession planning
where they're not growing andsuccession growth isn't always a
job title.
Sometimes it's interesting workthat pushes me beyond what I
did before.
That's intellectuallysatisfying and emotionally I am
(18:46):
continuing to grow.
Those are the things that makeus satisfied at work, and so
it's not as much about the title.
So are we as an organizationproviding those opportunities?
And are you as an individualpreparing yourself outside of
having the organization feed youthose things?
Are you actually going after it?
(19:08):
And if you are, then I thinkyou have the best chance of not
being stuck in a box.
And even if you then are in thewrong organization and they've
done that to you, you have theopportunity to move and go
someplace else and see if thatorganization is more about that
openness and that growth andthat ability to move forward in
(19:30):
that space.
Good morning Scott and Tammy Morning Karman.
Scott just like mocked me, Ithink visually.
Tammy (00:10):
He's such a nice man.
Scott (00:12):
I am, I was well.
I was trying to talk over Tammytoo.
Tammy (00:17):
You want to go first, Scott?
Scott (00:19):
Done.
I was trying to be efficientuse of our time Got it.
If we said if Tammy and I bothsaid good morning at the same
time, done it's a done deal.
Karman (00:31):
Right no wasted excellence there.
You guys just talksimultaneously.
Let zoom pick out which voiceit's going to record.
And sort of like a like oh, Ican fix that, scott just put
Tammy on mute.
And sort of like like oh, I canfix that, scott just put.
Tammy (00:48):
Tammy on mute.
It's true, it's true.
And you know, I'm sure Scottthinks that his opinions are the
best, so that's how he does it.
He has to force it.
Scott (01:00):
It's not about the best or the worst, it's just about
who's normally right.
Tammy (01:04):
Oh yeah, you guys all heard it right there.
I mean, I'm telling you, itjust happens.
Your head is so big I can'teven believe, like you can fit
in your office.
Scott (01:19):
It is a struggle.
Sometimes I have to turnsideways.
Karman (01:23):
But it is Speaking of perceptions.
You know how you and anyindividual gets perceived within
their organization starts toaffect what their opportunities
are, what projects, what newjobs you know come along and are
(01:43):
offered to them.
Sometimes people have trouble.
Maybe they've been pigeonholedor feel pigeonholed in a
particular way and want toreinvent themselves.
And so my question today issort of about succession
planning and opportunities whenyou're within an organization
(02:08):
and I think there's a little bitof a perception sometimes that
you have to leave anorganization to really move up
or like to really be appreciated, maybe even to come back at
some point, but that you'llnever like really move much more
than a step or two withoutstepping outside first.
(02:30):
Do you see that happening andis there a solution?
Should there be a solution?
Should people just accept likeI'm going to have to leave if I
want to be the CEO?
Tammy (02:50):
if I want to be the CEO, Karman.
I think this is interestingbecause I think there's so many
pieces of this and ways to delveinto it, and one of them is an
organizational issue.
Okay, so there areorganizations that struggle with
(03:13):
being able to like,intentionally, be a learning
organization where we can givepeople opportunities to continue
to say what's my next learningpiece, what's my next learning
piece?
What's my next learning piece,my next learning piece, what's
my next learning piece?
And in that space, when we donot intentionally and
thoughtfully and purposefullycreate a learning organization
where people can expand andbecome more than they were
(03:34):
before, right, then we have atendency to look at people, put
them in boxes and say this isall they're good for, right,
we're not teaching leaders howto develop people, we're not
making spaces and places forpeople to progress inside the
organization, all those types ofthings.
And sometimes you know that's.
You can be a huge, largeorganization with tons of
(03:57):
internal promotion opportunitiesand still be this place where
you know, I'm sorry, you are notin production, so therefore you
can only go this far or you'reonly in this department.
You can't cross and expand intoanother area.
We see a lot of organizationswho are super rigid like that.
We also see small organizationswhere there's not a lot of you
(04:18):
know.
Hey, we're an organization of30.
There's not a ton of internalpromotion at the top, because
maybe some of our top people arein their forties and fifties
and they, you know, they havethe next 10 years and you're
going to be ready before that 10years up.
So I mean, it depends on wherethe organization is at and those
(04:39):
types of things.
So let's just kind of set thatinside and say, hey, if an
organization is one wherethere's places to go and they're
interested in developingindividuals and not putting them
in these boxes, then we havesomething we can work with.
Scott (04:56):
And I think there's a conversation or a organizational
philosophy that you want to beable to determine, because it is
this, you know, as Karmantalked about succession plan, it
is this what is our philosophyon how we're going to grow
people.
So, is it Tammy to your point?
(05:18):
Is it we're going to be rigid?
I worked for an organizationthat, once you hit, if you
wanted to go into a certain roleor above, you had to have
experience in another countrybecause it was a global company
and they wanted you to have thatexperience.
If you wanted to move up, ifyou wanted to be a plant manager
, you had to have worked in twoor more different facilities.
(05:43):
Now, again, I find those rulesfascinating to me, because what
you're saying is I'm incompetentof learning what I need to
learn unless I'm working in thatfacility which I could get.
Someone that experience in lotsof ways may or may not be
(06:07):
saying go uproot your family togo over there.
Now I also think there'sinherent risk of an organization
where the only place you'veever worked or seen is that one
place, place because you couldbecome in, you know, a corporate
(06:29):
inbreeding place, which is notalso not good.
Tammy (06:32):
Well, I'm working with an organization right now small
executive team there's, I thinksix or seven of them.
Three of them have been insidethat organization for more than
30 years and have never workedanyplace else.
Scott (06:49):
Yeah.
Tammy (06:49):
And they're having a hard time because they're like we're
awesome and don't get me wrong,I'm sure that they are good.
Okay, I'm not going to be theone that says that they're not.
However, they have noexperience to know if they're
good or not.
There's nothing to compare itagainst and they're very tied to
(07:10):
status quo.
The way we've done it is theway that it needs to be done
into the future.
So if it's this internal, ifeverything is internal, you're
not willing to buy talent iesomeone who already has the
skill set and bring them in andyou have to pay more for them
because they have that skill set.
You buy the talent, okay, orthen build or boost.
(07:32):
That's taking talent internallyinside the organization and
building and boosting thattalent right.
So those are kind of those twooptions of how do we promote and
then are you getting rid of,are you booting talent?
That isn't great and thatbecomes believe it or not,
(07:53):
another question in this wholething about promotions and
succession planning.
Because if you're not bootingtalent, you are carrying dead
weight, and so this is kind ofan interesting thing Buy, build
or boost.
Build and boost right or boot.
You kind of have to have thoseBs in place in order for you to
(08:14):
be able to know kind of howwe're working with talent inside
of an organization.
Scott (08:20):
And I think the reality is you're going to buy it or
you're going to buy it.
I mean, you're paying for iteither way.
So if I go externally and I'mgoing to hire someone with that
talent, I likely am going to paya premium.
Tammy (08:33):
Premium correct.
That's why I mean buy yeah.
Scott (08:37):
Or if I'm going to grow that talent it is going to cost
me.
In my experience, when you kindof do the math, it's about the
same.
I mean I don't know that yousave any more money or not.
I think it's just how much timedo you have?
If you have time, you're likelybetter off growing it.
(08:57):
If you don't have time oh, Ican't wait, I don't have two
years Then you're likely betteroff just buying it outright.
Tammy (09:07):
And the piece about that is then we're looking at that
build or boost spot.
Okay, that time, as an employeeto go back to what Karman's
talking about if we have anorganization that is willing to
build and or boost someone inthat spot, as an employee, what
are you doing to put yourself ina spot that says they're going
(09:33):
to see me as someone who'scontinuing to level up, they're
going to see me as that personthat they're willing to invest
in?
And there's a lot of timeswhere employees are like feed me
, feed me, feed me, give me thetraining, give me the training,
give me the training, give methe experiences.
Yes, okay, it's important thatan organization does develop
(09:55):
their staff, but if you want tonot be put in a box, what are
you doing to develop your ownset of skills?
Right, how are you bringinglike to the table your learning
experiences?
Where are you going to get someof those learning experiences?
Where are you going to get someof those learning experiences?
And it doesn't have to beformal education, don't get me
wrong.
Getting you know, getting adegree, getting a master's
(10:17):
degree, getting a PhD, that'sall fine and dandy.
Ultimately, though, what's theskill set that this organization
is going to need in three yearsand are you going after it?
And in technology, that'sreally something that we've seen
smart technologists do.
They see that next piece ofsoftware, they see that next you
(10:39):
know coding language, they seewhatever that, and they go out
and they learn those skills.
So then, when the organizationadopts it, they already know how
to do that right.
And I think that is one of thesecrets if you want to not be
put in the box.
What is the additional skillset that you are going after?
Not that the organization isgiving you.
(11:00):
You are going after it yourselfbecause you're saying I want
that job and that job is goingto need this particular skill
set.
How am I going to get it?
Karman (11:11):
The other thing I want to clarify here is, if I'm
hearing you right, if I'm anindividual, it sounds like I can
make more money if I'm theoutside hire than if I've stuck
around and grown within.
Tammy (11:30):
C, that is a painful truth.
That is not a myth.
You know, organizations, if wethink about it historically,
somewhere in that 3% range rateis kind of the increase inside
of organizations is kind of theincrease inside of organizations
(11:53):
.
And if money is your gig andyou are going to stay inside of
an organization and you kind ofget that 3%, 3%, 3%, now I'm
going to take that promotion.
Maybe it's a boost of 10%.
However, we do know, justlooking at kind of the research,
that if you stay inside theorganization, your salary over
your career is going to be lowerthan that person who leaves
(12:13):
every couple of years, which iswhy people leave.
Okay, money is important to themand their times in your life
becomes even more and more andmore and more important.
We actually lost a staff memberthis spring because they were
in a transition in life.
Right, they're in a place wherethey're starting a family.
And when you're starting afamily and you're like, hey, I'm
(12:34):
going to have a little one andit's my first time and I have,
I'm going to put that kid indaycare and I need a crib and I
need this and I need that.
You never had all that stuffbefore.
Money's talking to you thatstuff before money's talking to
you, and so that is one of theplaces where we see people.
They're like you can almostanticipate that there's going to
(12:56):
be a job change in their familyone way or another, because
ultimately, that's what'simportant right now, but that is
unfortunately Now.
Can companies combat that?
You can.
Who are your superstars?
Who are your high potentials?
Are you providing them with theexperiences that they need for
(13:20):
those promotions?
Are you clearly puttingtogether a career path for them
and are you willing to do morethan that typical 3% right?
What are you doing to help themboost their financial success?
And that's not an easy thing todo.
Scott (13:41):
Yeah, I probably react a little bit because pay is such a
hot topic and I know we spenttime at our retreat last year
talking about our compphilosophy and I know sometimes
people don't agree with thatright and you know so to me that
(14:02):
whether it's 3% or 5% or 0%, Idon't know, for my superstars,
Tammy, are you going to overpayyour superstars versus the role
they're in today?
Tammy (14:20):
So this is a really great question and it's a painful one
because there's two sides ofthis.
Right now they're contributingat this level.
Okay, they actually, we can seetheir potential, but they're
not there yet.
They're in that learning curve.
Oftentimes they know thatthey're better than their peers
(14:45):
and they want to be paid betterthan the current job that
they're in because they knowthat they're better than their
peers.
And yet this is what the job.
If you look and you do kind ofthe comp studies, it fits in
there right.
And it is a piece whereoftentimes people, not just
(15:05):
superstars are going to leavebecause the financial
compensation is better over here.
Scott (15:14):
Which may or may not be a similar job.
Tammy (15:18):
Correct.
And here's the other pieceabout that Okay, is money a
satisfier?
Is money the thing that isgoing to make someone like, say,
I am in the right place, doingthe right thing?
And what we we know is thatmoney actually is the
(15:38):
dissatisfier.
Okay, oftentimes, money isabout comparing your, your
income, to somebody else'sincome, and anytime you're in
this place where you'recomparison, comparing yourself
against somebody else, you'regoing to lose.
There's always going to besomeone taller.
There's always going to besomeone smarter.
There's always going to besomeone faster.
(15:59):
There's always going to besomeone right, always.
You can watch this inprofessional sports, right, you
have, I'll just use football,because that's my sport you can
look at.
You know who makes who's thenumber one quarterback in the
NFL?
Okay, and it's like they'remaking X, y, z millions of
(16:22):
dollars per game that they play.
Okay, now let's just talk aboutthat for a minute.
Millions of dollars per game.
Does anybody really needmillions of dollars per game?
Scott (16:33):
No, Need yes, yes.
Tammy (16:37):
Want?
Yes, right, and the wantoftentimes comes from well, I am
number one, I should be paidmore than number two, okay.
Well, then the rankings changeand then number two becomes
number one for a year and theynow they need more money.
And then we have the nextperson and the next thing we do
is we do play this game and oursalaries just get completely and
(17:01):
totally out of whack, becauseyou have to prove to me that I
am, fill in the blank, betterthan the person that's standing
next to me.
You know what my guess is takethe money out of that.
Are you loving playing football?
Okay.
Are you loving playing thesport?
Is it something that brings youjoy?
(17:21):
I'm going to ask you that samequestion.
Take it out of sports now.
Are you loving your job or areyou working for the paycheck?
And in that space, I think wedo know that, long term, if
you're not being paid a fairwage, that's one thing, okay,
but money does not make youhappy.
Your salary does not say I lovethis work.
(17:44):
I want to work for thisparticular company?
Okay, it is not the thing thatbrings you peace inside.
So what is that Typically workthat you love?
Okay.
An organization that thinksyou're all that in a bag of
chips and you think that theorganization is all that in a
(18:04):
bag of chips, right.
And so there's this mutualappreciation back and forth,
where they know that we are goodtogether, right?
So knowing that you love thework, knowing that you're
appreciated for the work thatyou are doing, and then, believe
it or not, continuing to growand expand.
People get very unsatisfied ifthey're stuck in this place
(18:26):
where they're not.
Let's go back to Karman'squestion succession planning
where they're not growing andsuccession growth isn't always a
job title.
Sometimes it's interesting workthat pushes me beyond what I
did before.
That's intellectuallysatisfying and emotionally I am
(18:46):
continuing to grow.
Those are the things that makeus satisfied at work, and so
it's not as much about the title.
So are we as an organizationproviding those opportunities?
And are you as an individualpreparing yourself outside of
having the organization feed youthose things?
Are you actually going after it?
(19:08):
And if you are, then I thinkyou have the best chance of not
being stuck in a box.
And even if you then are in thewrong organization and they've
done that to you, you have theopportunity to move and go
someplace else and see if thatorganization is more about that
openness and that growth andthat ability to move forward in
(19:30):
that space.
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