Episode Transcript
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Mick Spiers (00:01):
What happens when
even the most caring, high
performing leaders start tounravel under pressure? Have you
ever wondered if your goodintentions as a manager might be
getting lost in the noise ofstress and responsibility? And
here's a big one. What kind ofleader Do you truly want to be,
(00:22):
and what kind of leader doesyour team need you to be in
today's conversation, I'm joinedby Sabina Nawaz, former
Microsoft executive a leadexecutive coach, and now the
author of a powerful new book,you're the boss. How to become
the manager you want to be andothers need. Sabina shares her
(00:42):
personal story, one where sheopenly admits as to becoming a
lousy manager, and then what shedid to turn it around. There are
multiple actionable takeawaysfrom today's discussion,
including a concept called thedelegation dial and the multiple
meanings exercised.
(01:03):
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I'm
greatly honored today to bejoined by Sabina Nawaz. Sabina
had a celebrated career atMicrosoft, leading executive
development programs for BillGates and Steve Ballmer, and now
is an elite executive coach.
She's also a prolific author whohas been featured in Harvard
(01:24):
Business Review and the WallStreet Journal, and I'm pleased
to announce she's releasing anupcoming book called you're the
boss, how to become the manageryou want to be and others need.
I'm really excited about today'sdiscussion. Sabina, so without
any further ado, I'd love it ifyou would say hello to the
(01:44):
audience, and I'd love to know abit about your career in in that
interesting career that you'vehad. But what particularly
inspired you to write this book?
Sabina Nawaz (01:55):
Thank you so much
for having me. Mick, and hello
everyone who's listening. Thereare a number of paths points
along my journey, of course,like anybody else, but I think a
pivotal moment for me wasrealizing that I was a lousy
manager at Microsoft, and Ihadn't always been that way for
most of my management career,the feedback I received was,
(02:17):
you're a great boss, because youreally care about us. You invest
in us, you think about ourcareer, you think about our well
being. You give us clearguidance. But as I came back
from parental leave after myfirst child, I was recently
promoted into a big joboverseeing all of the Executive
Leadership, ManagementDevelopment for the company, and
(02:41):
had deliverables all the way tothe top of the organization. The
pace was relentless. Thepressure was intense. And at
home, I had an infant thatdidn't sleep, so with all of
that pressure on me and worriedthat we would look bad to the
senior most executives of thecompany, I would micromanage. I
(03:03):
would oversee every singledetail. I would get grumpy,
snippy, short. I'm five footthree, so I'm short, but short
tempered. And the worst part ofthis was I had no idea that this
was impacting other peoplebadly. I thought, we're being
productive. We're moving fast.
You know, yes, I need toempathize with people more. I
(03:25):
need to connect with them more.
But that will happen later. Ofcourse, that later never came
along. So finally, one day, mycolleague told me that somebody
was crying in their office as aresult of a meeting that we had
had that was a shocking wake upcall. It made me realize or
(03:46):
wonder, how I had becomesomebody who was hurting other
people when my intention, ofcourse, was all great. And how
could the same person be a greatmanager under some circumstances
and a terrible one under othercircumstances. That's what got
me reverse engineering thisprocess and got me curious, and
(04:06):
was the seeds of the book. Fastforward a few years as a CEO
coach, I interview a lot ofpeople about what they actually
think about their bosses, andhave collected, over the years,
12,000 pages of data of howpeople perceive their bosses. So
those 12,000 pages of data withthe starter of my own experience
(04:30):
led me to this book.
Mick Spiers (04:32):
Well, that's
wonderful. Sabine, first of all,
I love that you're puttingyourself in there your own
experience, but 12,000 pages ofresearch, that's amazing. There
must be a lot of richness inthat data. And I would be
curious to know as we go along,how many of the stories repeat
themselves, and how consistentthis story keeps on playing
(04:53):
over. And I've got to say, I'msitting there listening to you
and the and the transition. Itmust be difficult some of those
moments. Particularly the wakeup call of the employee crying.
You got a crying baby at home,and now you've got crying people
at work. You must be thinking,Where did I go wrong? Where did
I go wrong? I'll share a bit ofa reflection of my career. I was
(05:14):
a terrible boss to begin with. Iwas a micro manager. Then when I
discovered what I'd done wrong,I discovered empowerment and
trust. I then build my wholecareer around empowerment and
trust. But then you have thesemoments where things don't go to
plan, and you think, oh, Ishould have stepped in more. I
(05:34):
should have so the situationaland the adaptive leadership can
go a little wrong, and you canstart reverting back to
micromanagement again. I livethis as well, so tell me more
about what you did differentlyonce you had that, that wake up
call of the employee cryingafter a meeting. What happened
(05:55):
next?
Sabina Nawaz (05:56):
Well, starting by
apologizing to people and
slowing down recognizing thatthis is what is happening. So
now I have a tool for this, notjust micromanaging, but us
taking on so much on ourselves.
Because, you see, it's not powerthat corrupts us, it's pressure.
When we're under pressure, someof our good intentions go by the
wayside, and we get short andsnippy and act in ways that we
(06:20):
won't be proud of. Moreimportantly, it's really harmful
to our employees. And thenresearch shows that when
employees feel ill treated, theysabotage results. They don't
work the way we need them to,which then further increases our
pressure and creates thisvicious cycle. So for those
bosses like myself, who thinkthat we have to be the sole
(06:41):
provider. We have to take it allon ourselves and be these
straight A students, I arrivedat a thought around delegation,
which is the number one mistakebosses make in delegation is
treating it like an on offswitch. Here, I trust you. I
empower you. Go do this, give meyou know we're going to go talk
(07:03):
to the customer on Monday, comeback with your stuff on Friday,
and when they come back onFriday, it is not what we were
expecting, and it is not meetingthe bar. So what do we do? We
jump in and we micromanageagain, which is even more
harmful than micromanaging inthe first place because we told
them we were empowering them,that empowerment is now in the
toilet. So the tool that I useis called the delegation dial,
(07:27):
instead of a switch. Treatdelegation like a dial. You
notch it up little at a timebased on the knowledge, the
skills, the experience theperson to whom you're delegating
has, if they're a newbie, you donot give them full empowerment.
That is not setting them up forsuccess. It's not doing them a
favor. You a favor or the work.
(07:52):
So instead, you simply do thework and have them watch, and
then maybe you tell them. Youtell them you're going to
paragraph one is going to beabout this. Paragraph two here.
This is how you're going to endthe document and so on. Then you
teach them. This is why I've gotthis. You know, if you're
editing in a document, forexample, telling them is you're
(08:12):
making red lines in thedocument, teaching them is
you're putting comments in thereto say, the reason we start this
way is this. The reason thiscomes after that is this and so
on. Then you coach them. You askthem questions. What else did
you consider? What were the prosand cons? What made you arrive
at this particular decisionpoint, and only then do you
(08:33):
fully hand it over to them? Soif we can notch up the
delegation dial, we are going tobe a lot more effective at
creating a sustained reductionin our pressure and development
and growth in our people.
Mick Spiers (08:48):
I love this Sabina,
this is our really big takeaway
for the audience already, sohave a think about this.
Delegation is not a switch.
Micromanagement is not a switch.
You don't just switch from oneextreme to another. And in my
example that I was giving beforeI had a project that went really
wrong. That was one project outof 100 projects. So why would I
(09:09):
then just become a micro managerfor 100 projects when it was one
that needed more care andattention? So so the situational
element there is one projectneeded help, not 100 projects.
And then I'm hearing theadaptive element from you,
Sabina, which is you're notgoing to treat an intern the
same way that you're going totreat a 30 year veteran in your
(09:31):
industry. So you're going to usethat delegation dial for the for
the more junior. You are goingto start back at one, and you're
going to ratchet up slowly. AndI love the example that you used
of the document. Yeah, this isreally powerful.
Sabina Nawaz (09:46):
Well, I do want to
add a point you might have to
start earlier in the delegationdial with a 30 year veteran of
the industry. If the topic isnew to them, let's say you're
working on an AI project andthey haven't worked. Done AI
before? Well, you're going to goback to the beginning. So it's
not static. It's dynamicdepending on the situation.
Mick Spiers (10:07):
Yeah, really good.
Okay, so two big takeawaysalready, power doesn't corrupt,
pressure does. So when you getinto those precious situations,
don't allow yourself to go intohabits that you wouldn't be
proud of is the is the thing I'mtaking away from that, and then
we've got this situational andadaptive leadership with a
delegation dial how to how do weramp this up? If someone's
(10:30):
listening to the show Sabina,and they're recognizing
themselves, just like I did whenyou were talking, they're
recognizing themselves around,oh yeah, I do a bit of that. I
flick the switch, etc. How doessomeone start with a delegation
doll?
Sabina Nawaz (10:48):
I think a key is
what you're saying, Mick, which
is recognizing. Recognition ishalf the problem, and it's
really hard to recognize,because while pressure corrupts
not power, power then tends toinsulate and isolate you from
the truth. So just like I had noclue that things had gone off
the rails, you won't know thatyou're micromanaging or you're
(11:10):
not delegating appropriately,you're sucking up all the
responsibility to yourself. Sofirst thing to recognize is, Do
other people offer up ideas?
Does anybody disagree with whatI say? And if the answer is no,
then you're likely in thismicromanaging or sole provider
terrain, and it's time to pause.
(11:30):
Then before you even think aboutdelegation, you need to assess
where the employee is. Are they,you know, to use someone else's
framework, are theyunconsciously incompetent? Are
they consciously incompetent?
Are they consciously competentor unconsciously competent? So
based on where they are in theirlevel of competence and
(11:52):
knowledge, you make a choicepoint of which part of the
delegation. Dial, do teach? Dotell, teach, coach and safety
net. Do you start with, and thenyou start with this, a
conversation with the employee.
Mick Spiers (12:09):
They're really
good. So I'm hearing two key
points there. One is around theself awareness and testing. And
I like your idea there do alittle test around psychological
safety and and if people are notspeaking up, it's not because
it's there's nothing wrong. It'snever if they're not speaking
(12:29):
up, it's because they don't feelthat they can, that they feel
that their fear of speaking upis is greater than their
perceived benefit of doing so.
So you've gone wrong somewherealong the line. Let's double and
then, then there were the secondpart, sorry. Was then about
reading the situation of, whereis the person that in their in
their learning cycle? What Iwant to know, though, if you,
(12:50):
let's take a step back and go,if you've done that test, that
psychological safety test of,oh, wow, my team aren't telling
me and not speaking up. They'renot giving me ideas anymore.
They're just saying, yes sir, nosir. Kind of thing. How do we
fix that if we've already donesome damage?
Sabina Nawaz (13:14):
By not talking and
what I mean by that is
exercising your Shut up muscle,which is a series of steps very
practical tactics that don'ttake any extra time, but will
create some discomfort in themand in you, but it it starts to
develop their capabilities andtheir ability to participate and
(13:39):
not just divert all of thatattention and pressure to you.
So here are a few ways you cantake steps towards deploying
your Shut up muscle. First ofall, if you're the first one out
the gate to speak, could you atleast be the third person to
speak, so that others havespace. And you might want to be
(14:00):
transparent about it. You mightsay, look, I noticed that I'm
always the first to speak, andI'm I know there's a lot of
wisdom in this room. I'm notgoing to do that going forward,
and if I do, you can hold meaccountable. I'm going to be at
least the third person to speak.
So people don't think, oh mygosh, what's going on? So that's
one piece. Another is you couldtake notes and capture all of
(14:22):
those ideas that you're buzzingwith so that you're not worried
about losing them, and then onlyspeak up and share the ideas
that others haven't alreadyshared, maybe towards the end of
the meeting.
Mick Spiers (14:35):
Yeah, I'm so happy
with this Sabina, I was doing a
little dance as you were talkingthere, that would that was a
powerful message. So the twothings that I loved, one was
that you're going to have anopen and transparent dialog with
the team about it. If you, ifyou've noticed, talk about it.
Talk about it openly, and go,Well, look, I feel like I've
(14:56):
created an environment herewhere, where you you're not
feeling comfortable. People tospeak up. So I'm going to make
some changes here. I'm going tobe the third one to speak, or,
as you know, the African proverbtalks about being the last
person to speak. And then byleaving that vacuum, people will
step in. It will beuncomfortable, like you said,
Sabina, for a little while. Ifthey're not used to it,
(15:18):
everyone's going to kind of looksideways at each other first,
but then after a while, peoplewill go, Well, okay, no, it is
safe to speak up, and I'm goingto share my so the power of the
Shut up muscle, that's my nexttakeaway today. But then it was
also the Open dialog with theteam to talk about it. If it's a
problem, talk about it. If youtalk about it, people relax,
(15:39):
actually, because they'reprobably all aware of it. Just
no one's talking about it.
Really powerful. All right, whenyou and I were having a chat
before we came on and hitrecord, you spoke about being
promoted being the mostdangerous time in your career.
Tell us about that.
Sabina Nawaz (15:57):
Often when we're
promoted, of course, it's a
wonderful time in a career too,who doesn't want a promotion or
a raise, and all the perks thatgo with it. But when we're
celebrating, we forget thatthere's a risk lurking in the
shadows, and the risk is thatthe higher we go, the very
strengths that have propelled usthere are going to be viewed
(16:21):
completely differently, almost180 degree opposite, by the
people who are working for us.
When necks are craning up, theview is a lot less charitable,
and the impact is hard. So youknow, we had talked about
micromanaging earlier. Mick, andimagine somebody who's very
strong at the details. They'reof course, going to show up as a
(16:42):
micromanager. That's how they'regoing to be viewed. Or what if
you're really strategic, are younow going to be seen as
manipulative? Say you're calmunder pressure, and now people
are going this person's reallyaloof and disinterested in what
we're doing. So that there aretwo sides to the same coin,
viewed very, very differently.
(17:06):
And again, because power hidesthis from us, we don't realize
that our strengths, I'm stillthe same person, but we don't
realize that the circumstanceshave changed and they're being
viewed radically differently.
Mick Spiers (17:20):
Oh yeah, this is a
really good one. So what got you
here may be the very thing thatholds you back in your new role.
So you need to make thesepivots, but it's also the
perception this, the spotlightelement that people are looking
now they're watching. And someof those things that were
strengths may come up asperceived issues right now, the
(17:41):
detailed person becoming themicro manager, absolutely, the
person that's very much aboutempowerment and trust may be
coming across as abdication, andthe boss doesn't even care
anymore. Exactly. Really good.
Okay, so, same thing if you findyourself in this situation.
Sabina, what? What next? So, soif someone's listening to the
(18:02):
show on their way to work, andthey're going, Yeah, that's me,
how does someone address thissituation?
Sabina Nawaz (18:11):
Yeah, it's tough,
because, of course, you don't
know, and nobody's going to tellyou. And so think about on the
eve of your promotion, what areyour signature strengths? What
is the thing that's your secretsauce? What makes you so special
and so shiny? Now try andChannel Five different people
(18:34):
who are in positions that arevery different from you, so not
different people withpersonalities or your friends,
but people in differentpositions. So if you're managing
a team, what does somebody onelevel below or two levels below
you on the organizational chart?
How might they see that detail,orientation? What about your
peers? What would they say? Areyou being persnickety and
(18:56):
resistant to change becauseyou're hanging on to the details
and asking all those questions,what about your boss in this
elevated role? Are they going tothink that you have not been
able to scale up? So you can askyourself, how those strengths
are being seen from a variety ofdifferent perspectives and
(19:16):
roles, and if you're honest withyourself, you'll realize, ah,
this very same trait, eventhough I'm not changing it, is
showing up differently. So nowyou can adjust your
communication. This happened tosomebody I coach who is very,
very much into the details, butwas made in charge of a $14
billion business as a CFO. Sowhen he came on board, he told
(19:41):
his team, he said, the way Ilearn is through details and
asking all the detailedquestions. I am not interested
in micromanaging you. I have toomuch on my plate, but you will
hear me ask these detailedquestions for the first three
months. So. After the firstthree months, you should not
answer detailed questions,because I should be on boarded
(20:05):
and have enough information atthat point, you let me know at
what altitude you want me toplay if you want me to problem
solve with you, of course, I'llask you detailed questions, but
most of the time, that's not myinterest.
Mick Spiers (20:22):
There's something a
few powerful things in there.
Sabina, the first one is theopen and transparent
conversation. Again, if yourecognize this stuff, and I'll
come back to the process thatyou used in a moment, if you've
recognized it, have that openand transparent conversation
with the team. I'm going to alsogo to another example like this,
(20:44):
about having thoseconversations. So this one comes
from my career as well, becauseI am more one that's about
empowerment and trust, and ifanything, I probably use more of
a coaching style in myleadership. So if someone comes
to me with a problem, I usuallycoach them through it by a bunch
of questions. So if they come tome with a question, I'll answer
(21:05):
it with seven questions. Andmostly that works like in nine
times out of 10. That worksbecause I'm leading them to find
their own answer, and when theyfind their own answer, they'll
it'll live with them forever.
Sabina Nawaz (21:18):
That's brilliant.
Mick, Yes.
Mick Spiers (21:19):
But one time out of
10. It frustrates the hell out
of them, because they go I wentto Mick and I just wanted an
answer, and he wouldn't. He gaveme seven questions. So I empower
my team to say, Hey, this is mystyle. This is what I do. I'm a
coaching style leader. I'm goingto ask you a lot of questions.
If there's a moment where youjust want me to decide, should
(21:40):
this be red or should this beblue? Just tell me, and I'll
make the decision. So to makesure I don't come across as
indecisive, because all I do isask questions. I empower the
people. Hey, if you need ananswer, just just tell me. How
does that sit with you?
Sabina Nawaz (21:55):
That I love the bi
directional nature of that Mick,
where you're not only beingtransparent about what your
style is and how to work withit, but you're also allowing for
that may not be that 10th personstyle, and if it's not, you're
giving them the leeway, theautonomy to come back to you and
push back and ask for thatanswer. So I love the fact that
(22:19):
you're inclusive in yourapproach, because different
people are going to havedifferent styles, and not
everybody has just kowtow to theboss's style.
Mick Spiers (22:27):
Yeah, exactly. All
right. So different styles,
different people will warm toone style or another style, and
then also the situation mightjust call, Hey, we just need to
get on with it. To come back tothe process that you spoke
about, I thought it was reallypowerful. I'm going to add
something, if I can spare you.
So you spoke about, almostdocumenting your superpower,
(22:47):
what makes you special, and thenhaving that empathy circle of of
how are other people going tointerpret that special source? I
would add in there anything thatyou're aware of that's a bit of
a shortcoming. And we're allhuman. None of us are perfect.
I'd say the same with that. Likeif you, if you add both your
(23:09):
strengths and your weaknesses,and then did that empathy view
that you did, where? How will myboss perceive this strength? How
will my boss perceive thisweakness? How will my team
perceive this strength? How willmy team perceive this weakness?
How will my peers perceive thisstrength? Perceive this
weakness? I think you can thenend up with something where you
(23:29):
can adapt and adjust as neededto make sure that your
superpowers are being appliedwhere needed and where there is
a weakness that you'reaccommodating that weakness with
the others around you. How doesthat sit with you?
Sabina Nawaz (23:45):
Very much so, and
sometimes surprisingly, when you
do that with weaknesses, youmight realize no one cares. You
don't really need to work onimproving your PowerPoint
graphic design skills. You canget someone else to do that for
you or with you. So it's areally great exercise, as you're
(24:06):
describing it, Mick, and alsohelping you let go of certain
things that you are beatingyourself up about and you don't
need to.
Mick Spiers (24:14):
I love this, and
I'll give you a silly example
here. The very things thatyou're not good at is going to
be some not only someone else'sstrengths, but it's going to be
the thing that they love. I'llgive you a silly example here.
Let's say that you hate pivottables. Let's say you hate pivot
tables. You're not good at it.
You don't enjoy it. There'sgoing to be someone in your near
vicinity that not only is goodat pivot tables, they love to
(24:39):
it. They're going to be up. Youknow, they're singing along,
going, Oh, I love doing have alook around you. Don't worry
about your weaknesses. Have alook around you. There's going
to be someone for the thing thatyou hate. There's going to be
someone that it's their favoritething to do, and they're good at
it. Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (24:58):
Yeah. I did that
with a. Team that I joined.
There were four people on thisteam, and we just simply went
around and said, What's What'sone thing that you really love
about your job in terms of thethings you're working on, and
what's one thing that you'reworking on that just does not
energize you? And exactly thathappened, it was like magic
(25:18):
Mick, even in a small team,where we were able to then trade
the things that people didn'tlike and the other person
received with gratitude and joy.
So now we just multiplied thejoy in the team simply by having
a conversation of the assets,sort of tallying the assets of
what people are working on, whatthey like doing and what they
don't like doing.
Mick Spiers (25:40):
Yeah,Nbrilliant.
Okay, that's another greattakeaway for the audience today.
There's some really good,actionable things here. The
final chapter that I want tounpack you and I discussed
before we hit record, that powerisolates you from the truth.
Tell us more about that,Sabina,.
Sabina Nawaz (25:57):
Well, some of it
is, is inevitable because the
person in position of power hasa lot of control over your
destiny, whether or not you havea job, how much of a bonus you
get, what projects you work on,where you sit, so many decisions
that will impact you in minorand major ways. So are you going
to be as honest as critical ofthat person who has your fate in
(26:24):
their hands. So that's one partof it. The other part is that
often when you've gotten to aposition of power, you haven't
gotten there by being wrong allthe time. You've gotten there by
being right most of the time. Soyou come in with your right or
your righteous view, and itbecomes the view. And you
(26:45):
assume, like you said before,that silence equals agreement,
compliance. You don't know thatthat's actually there, thinking,
Oh, this is the most ridiculousthing I've ever seen. And so you
continue forward, and then youget more and more isolated in
your own viewpoint. It becomesan echo chamber, as opposed to
pressure testing these ideas andcoming up with the best idea.
Mick Spiers (27:07):
Yeah, there's a big
element there of just
confirmation bias, that youstart believing your own truth,
yes, yes, without actuallytesting it. And if no one's
challenging you on it, becauseyou haven't created that
psychological safety, you'lljust continue to think, Well,
I'm the smartest person in theroom, and the more that you
(27:27):
think you're the smartest personin the room, the more you're
alienating everyone else,exactly. Oh yeah, okay, this is
really powerful. So what are thetips here? So if you've found
yourself in this trap where youdo find yourself thinking that
you're always right and no one'schallenging me, and you're
sitting there going, but I amthe smartest person in the room,
(27:49):
which is a problem, by the way.
What do we do from here? Sabina,how do we break that one?
Sabina Nawaz (27:55):
I use a tool
called multiple meanings, which
are actually designed for mykids, but it works equally well
in corporations, which is makingat least three, if not more,
different interpretations aboutwhat's going on before acting. I
had a client who was reallyupset one day coming into our
coaching session saying that hiscolleague is planning to present
(28:21):
to the leadership team in amonth on a particular topic, and
the client said, That's my area.
Why is he presenting on that?
I'm really mad at him. I'm gonnago read him the riot act and
tell him to back off from myturf. And I said, yeah, maybe he
is out for a power grab, andyou're in trouble. He's got you
(28:43):
in his sights. That might betrue, but Can we pause for a
moment and make three otherinterpretations about what might
be going on? And he was veryreluctant at first, because he
had a full head of steam abouthow this guy was a complete
megalomaniac, but as he startedthinking about it, he said,
Well, this is the newest area inmy organization, and maybe he
(29:07):
doesn't know that this is in myarea. Okay, great. What else
could be going on? And he said,Well, maybe he actually wants to
collaborate with me. And so he'sbringing up this topic because
he has some extra resources withwhich to help me out and for us
(29:27):
to produce something, taking hisstrengths, our strengths and
combining our resources. Great.
What's a third interpretation?
Well, this guy's kind ofinterpersonally awkward. He does
not do well in one on oneconversations, so maybe he meant
to have a one on oneconversation with me, but hasn't
been able to get around to it.
Of course, as he started makingthese multiple interpretations,
(29:50):
his temperature started goingdown, he realized he didn't
really know what was going onand that his extreme view. Was
likely not the truth, or atleast not the full truth. He
went and talked to the person.
Turned out the person wasn'taware this was in his area and
(30:11):
would be very open tocollaborating. And in a month,
they co presented to theleadership team the project, and
they collaborated in deliveringthat project with great results,
but that wouldn't have happenedif he'd gone in attacking this
guy.
Mick Spiers (30:26):
I'm going to say
there might have even been a
fourth and a fifthinterpretation. Absolutely,
person might not have known thatthis was your baby and the thing
that you care about most in theworld, and they've got no idea
that they're stepping on yourtoes, etc. Exactly. I love this
Sabina, the multiple meaningsexercise. I love that you did it
with your kids as well. That'sThat's awesome. But absolutely,
(30:48):
this can play out in theworkplace, and I'm going to say
both cognitively andemotionally, so in terms of
looking at differentperspectives of reality from a
cognitive basis and then theemotional basis. And what I'm
going to say like listening toyou if you find yourself falling
into this trap in the workplace,no one really turns up to the
(31:12):
workplace every day going, Whatcan I do today to be a real
jerk? No, no one does that.
Usually people have got verygood intentions. There are some
narcissist out there, butthey're a minority. Most people
turn up with very goodintentions. If you find yourself
in a situation, whether it'swith a customer, a peer or a
boss, and you find yourself inyour head saying the following
(31:34):
thing, oh, you only did thatbecause and you're making an
assumption on someone else'sintentions, you're already in a
trap, and you you can use thismultiple meanings exercise of
Sabina to get you out of thattrap. If you've come to a
conclusion that the person didthis because and you've come up
with some evil intent, take abreath and go, What? What's
(31:58):
another interpretation of whatthey just did. And I can tell
you, Sabina that I didn't have aname for it, but I've done this
throughout my career, andusually when you come up with
the most innocent interpretationof events, is usually the most
accurate?
Sabina Nawaz (32:17):
Right. Exactly,
because most people are not out
to get you.
Mick Spiers (32:21):
No.
Sabina Nawaz (32:23):
In fact, the
opposite.
Mick Spiers (32:25):
Yeah, exactly. So
honestly, the most innocent
explanation and the simplestexplanation is usually the most
accurate one. All right, thishas been really powerful.
Sabina, I want to play back someof the things for the audience,
some big takeaways for fromtoday, and then we'll go to our
Rapid Round, our final fourquestions. So first of all,
(32:47):
congratulations on the upcomingbook. You're the boss. How to
become the boss you want to beand others need. I love this
concept that power doesn'tcorrupt, the pressure does. So
if you find yourself in thesesituations where the pressure is
mounted and you start revertingto habits that don't serve you
well, you need to take that stepback and go, hang on a sec. Is
(33:10):
this working? Is this what thesituation requires? Is this what
the person or people need? Andthe delegation dial was a
perfect illustration of that.
Where on the delegation dial doI need to be right now? What
does the situation call for, andwhat does the person that I'm
leading need right now? What'sgoing to serve them well? And is
it a dial starting to one, thento two, then to three? It's not
(33:33):
even static at any moment intime. We spoke about that what
serves you, what has served youwell, to get you to hear may be
the very things that hold youback going forward. And I
thought this empathy circle ofwhere you're you're looking at,
well, what are my strengths?
(33:54):
What are my weaknesses? But howis it impacting those around me,
and how will they perceived thevery same strengths and
weaknesses I thought was really,really powerful, and then that
power isolates you from thetruth. If people are not telling
you things, it's not becauseeverything's perfect and you're
the smartest person in theworld. That's not at all. You
(34:16):
need to break that and the beingthe last person to speak, or the
third person to speak. Havingthat those conversations with
your team is really powerful.
And then the final one is themultiple meanings exercise, if
something's happening and you'restarting to see red mist around
some other individual, take thismultiple meanings exercise from
(34:37):
Sabina, and think about, isthere a simpler and more
innocent explanation of whatjust happened compared to the
one that you've just dreamt upin your head? These are very
powerful tools. Sabina, andthank you so much for sharing
these with us.
Sabina Nawaz (34:54):
Thank you, Mick,
thank you for that excellent
summary.
Mick Spiers (34:58):
Oh, okay, I'm
going. Take us now to our four
questions that we ask all of ourguests. Sabina, so, so what's
the one thing that you know now?
Sabina noaz, that you wish youknew when you were 20?
Sabina Nawaz (35:10):
Oh, there are so
many things we could be talking
for an hour, but if I were toboil it down to one, it would be
do less that you don't have tobe busy all the time. You don't
have to be doing all the time.
Take the time to be radicallypresent and be as opposed to do.
You'll get great insights.
(35:32):
You'll build betterrelationships, and it's also
wonderful for your own mentalhealth and well being.
Mick Spiers (35:37):
Wonderful. So do
less be not to I really love
this, and there's so many thingsthat happen with that. Sabina,
a, your focus will be improved.
The things that you focus on andprioritize will be improved. But
when you do less, it creates, itcreates the space for others to
learn and grow.
Sabina Nawaz (35:59):
It sure done.
Mick Spiers (36:01):
They step into the
bridge? Really good. Okay, so as
an author yourself, what is yourfavorite book?
Sabina Nawaz (36:06):
Well, I am not
monogamous to any one book or
author. My favorite book changesdepending on what I'm reading
recently, and the one I've readright now that I've really
appreciated is called martyr byCOVID Akbar.
Mick Spiers (36:21):
Okay, I don't know
much about it. Tell tell us the
synopsis.
Sabina Nawaz (36:25):
I would be giving
away too much. It is, it is a
book that is very complex in anumber of ways, and it's, I
think the author brings in someof his own story in there. He's
interwoven it with some poetrythat he's written, but it's a
deep examination of life througha fiction book, and the story
takes many twists and turns thatI'm not going to create a
(36:47):
spoiler for, but it is highlyworth your time to read it.
Mick Spiers (36:52):
All right,
wonderful. What's your favorite
quote?
Sabina Nawaz (36:55):
I don't know how
to pronounce his name, but this
is the author of The LittlePrince, and the quote goes along
the lines of perfection is notwhen you have more to add, but
when you have nothing left totake away.
Mick Spiers (37:08):
Oh, yeah. Okay,
that one hit home nicely. Yeah.
I like that a lot. All right.
Finally. Sabina, first of all,you got your your new book
coming out. There's going to bepeople that have listened to
this, and it's resonated withthem strongly. How do people
find you? If they'd like to knowmore, they'd like to get a copy
of the book.
Sabina Nawaz (37:28):
The book is sold
everywhere. Books are found, and
they can follow me on LinkedInor Instagram and so on, but also
perhaps the best way where theycan also get additional
resources and tools is on mywebsite. sabinanawaz.com,
Mick Spiers (37:46):
All right,
brilliant. Thank you so much for
your time today and for your thegift of your wisdom and
experience. Mostly, I want tosay thank you for the really
actionable insights. Like it wasa great conversation, but it was
so many things that peoplelistening to the show right now
can apply immediately in theirleadership practice. Thank you
(38:06):
so much.
Sabina Nawaz (38:08):
Thank you so much.
Mick Spiers (38:10):
So how do you show
up when the pressure is on, and
how aware are you really of theimpact you're having on the
people around you? A huge thankyou to Sabina Nawaz for joining
us today and for her openness,her honesty and her insight, I
hope her story inspired you asmuch as it inspired me.
Remember, Leadership isn't abouthaving all the answers. It's
(38:32):
about being aware of the impactyou having on others around you.
There are so many greattakeaways for me today. This
power doesn't corrupt pressuredoes the delegation? Dial the
empathy circle. Power isolatesyou from the truth and this
multiple meanings exercise,there are lots of actionable
insights for you today. In thenext episode, I'll be sharing my
(38:55):
reflections on this conversationwith Sabina and adding my own
thoughts about some of themistakes I've made as a leader
over my career and what I did tocourse correct.
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
(39:18):
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject YouTube channel, where
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do, take
(39:41):
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.