Ready to transform your workplace from a creativity desert into a thriving innovation ecosystem? Jamie Woolf, the first director of culture at Pixar Animation, and Dr. Christopher Bell of Creativity Partners reveal the unexpected connection between play, power dynamics, and breakthrough ideas.
Their conversation shatters common misconceptions about creativity in the workplace. Forget the notion that creativity belongs only in "creative" industries – it's about solving problems that don't yet exist, making it essential for finance teams, healthcare workers, and every organization seeking innovation. The experts share why traditional approaches to workplace culture often miss the mark, especially when it comes to power dynamics between leaders and teams.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when examining how leadership impacts creativity. "75% of people say their boss – not workload or deadlines – is the most stressful part of their day," Dr. Chris reveals, highlighting how unintentional behaviors from well-meaning leaders can stifle innovation. You'll discover practical strategies for flattening power distances without diminishing leadership authority, creating environments where everyone feels empowered to contribute their best ideas.
Perhaps most compelling is their exploration of inclusive storytelling as a foundation for creative cultures. They explain the difference between making people "feel" included versus ensuring people "are" included – a distinction that transforms how teams collaborate and innovate. The conversation concludes with a powerful framework for media literacy that applies equally to workplace communications and broader social narratives.
Whether you're leading a team that needs a creativity boost, working under challenging leadership, or simply fascinated by what makes innovative cultures tick, this episode offers actionable insights to transform how you approach workplace dynamics. Visit creativity-partners.com to learn more about bringing these principles into your organization.
🌐 Connect with Jamie and Dr. Christopher:
• Website: https://www.creativity-partners.com/
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boardroom but in a playground?
What if creativity isn'tsomething you're born with, but
something your workplace eitherunlocks or shuts down? And what
if inclusion isn't about makingpeople feel welcome but making
sure they have a voice thatshapes the room in today's
conversation, I'm joined byJamie Woolf and Dr. Chris bell
(00:22):
of creativity partners, anorganization that helps leaders
build cultures where peopledon't just fit in, they
flourish. We discuss why play isnot a distraction from work.
It's essential to doing our bestwork, and how any team in any
industry can unlock creativity.
(00:46):
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I've
got a special treat for youtoday, a two for one deal. We've
got two very special guests withus today, from creativity
partners, an organization thathelps you to cultivate amazing
cultures, and in particularlycreative cultures, what does it
take to create a creativeculture, and how do bad bosses
(01:08):
kill innovation and creativity,and more importantly, what can
you do about it? So Dr. ChrisBell is the president of
creativity partners. Is is aformer university professor at
the University of Colorado, andalso worked at Sky dance
animation. Jamie Woolf is theCEO of creativity partners, and
(01:33):
was the first director ofculture at Pixar Animation,
where we've seen a, I'm going tosay, a very slow progression in
the way some of organizations,the way media represents
cultures and inclusion overtime, and that might be
something that we touch on as wego. The main part we're going to
talk about is what does it taketo create a creative culture,
(01:57):
and how leaders can impactinnovation and creativity in
your organizations. So withoutany further ado, Jamie and Chris
and I'll come to you one at atime. I would love to know what
inspires you to do this workaround creative cultures, and
I'm really curious to know howthe two of you meet. So Jamie,
(02:19):
I'd love to come to you first onthis one.
Jamie Woolf (02:22):
I think it goes
back to my childhood. Actually.
I grew up with a single mom whowas a teacher, but her father,
my grandfather, said you couldbe a teacher or a nurse, and she
really wanted to be ajournalist, and so she did make
the most of a teacher career,elementary school teacher, and
did brilliant work, but what Isaw was two things. One, what
(02:46):
happens to a human being whodoesn't do the work that they
really want to be doing in theworld? And secondly, working
within an organization where thecircumstances were very
disempowering, low pay, youknow, not enough resources,
principles that didn't reallysupport teachers. And I think
(03:07):
from that experience growing up,you know, seeing the exhaustion,
the burnout, I wanted to helporganizations and human beings
to feel their full agency andtheir gifts and their potential
in the workplace. And how I metChris is I saw his amazing TED
(03:28):
talk, and I said, I want to meetthis person. So I invited him to
come to Pixar, and I got him ina room with our executives. And
so if you haven't seen the TEDtalk yet, I recommend you Google
Dr Chris Bell and Ted Talk.
That's, that's what brought ustogether. And you know, we've
kind of been working together indifferent forums ever since
Mick Spiers (03:50):
Outstanding Jamie.
I'm absolutely certain we'regoing to talk about that TED
talk at some point in in today'sdiscussion. It really hit home
for me as well. And the storyyou just told is part of it,
nurse or teacher. Veryinteresting. Societal
expectations, parentalexpectations, already channeling
someone, and in this case, afemale, towards nurse or
(04:12):
teacher. That's reallyinteresting. We'll come back to
that. I'm sure, Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (04:18):
I'm going
to Cliff Notes, a whole bunch of
stuff, because I have such along and winding road. But
essentially, I study mediaacademically, and my part of the
field is consistently undersiege, particularly in the
modern in the modern climate,because I study what has loosely
(04:41):
come to be termed DEI, although,as I tell people, I don't really
do D or E, I just do I and ifyou do I then D and E will take
care of themselves. And so thathas brought me into all kinds of
interesting spaces, because I'mvery concerned. With how we
(05:01):
treat other people, both in ourpersonal lives and in the
workplace, how other people getto exist in the world, and our
relationship to them. And so Ido a lot of work around gender,
and that brought me into Pixarthrough this TED talk that's
(05:23):
brought me into this space whereJamie was sort of able to open
my eyes up to this whole otherhalf of the equation, which is
sort of the corporate half ofit. It's the people part of it.
You know, I've been so focusedmy whole career on the work, on
the on the tangible things, onthe toys, on the movies, on the
video games, on the things thatwe can see and interact with.
(05:45):
There's this whole human cultureside to it, the people part of
things. And the more I got intothat work dealing with the
people, the more Jamie and Isort of connected over that and
over the way we constructworkplaces. And a lot of my
research area around you know,things like play and creativity
(06:08):
and innovation really lined upwith hers, coming from a more HR
corporate training kind of aside, and we found this really
sort of very cool place in themiddle where we our work sort of
slams together, and we've beenable to take this out to
companies and, you know, studiosand all kinds of interesting
places and interesting people,to say, creativity can flourish
(06:30):
anywhere. Creativity can comefrom anywhere. And how are we
making that environmentconducive to creativity? And
also, how can we createenvironments where people can
show up in their full selves anddo their best work.
Mick Spiers (06:48):
Outstanding, Chris
and I'm really glad the two of
you did meet, and if it took aTED Talk to make that happen,
you know, that's great. I'm gladthat you meet because it Mick,
because you got verycomplimentary skills, very
complimentary skills and andyour powerful work, Chris, about
building inclusion intostorytelling and the role the
media plays, I'm going to teasethe audience and say, I want to
(07:10):
come back to this, the role themedia plays in reinforcing some
of those societal norms and someof the expectations that it's a
really interesting topic. And Ithink there's things that we can
do, not just in the media, butimmediately in the workplace,
that can address the way that welook at inclusion. You and I are
potentially kindred spirits onthis one, because I say that D
(07:34):
and E are meaningless unless youhave I like it's if someone
doesn't feel included, itdoesn't matter if you have a
workplace that's very diverse,and you've you've done lots of
things around equity, and you'vegot multicultural environment.
If no one has a voice or feelsthat they belong, I'm sure that
we're going to come back tothat.
Dr. Christopher Bell (07:54):
Even, even
beyond that, just just just to
caveat that even beyond that,one of the things we say all the
time and creativity partners iswe're not in the business of
making people feel included.
We're in the business of makingpeople be included. And those
are two very different things.
Mick Spiers (08:08):
I've got a I can't
ignore that. Tell me more what?
What's the difference?
Dr. Christopher Bell (08:13):
The way I
explain it is like this, let's
say, let's say, we're going tothrow a party. You and I are
going to throw a party, right?
And we're going to invite allour friends, and they're going
to come over to our house, andwe're going to have a good time,
we're going to get some food,we're going to play some music,
and it's going to be a reallygood time, right? All our
friends come over, but it'sstill our house. You and I
decided when the party was youand I decided who was going to
(08:34):
come to the party. You and Idecided what food was going to
be there, you and I decided whatmusic was going to be there. And
all of our friends will feelincluded because we invited them
over, and they're all having agood time, but it's not their
party that's very different thanif we tell all of our friends we
want to have a party, and we geteverybody together and go, What
kind of music should we have,and what kind of food should we
have? And Wendy, when would be agood time for us to have it, and
(08:56):
where should we have the part?
Now, everyone is actuallyincluded. Everyone is a part of
the process. They don't have tofeel included. They are
included. It's too. Verydifferent.
Mick Spiers (09:08):
Yeah, very good. I
love the definition. I'm feeling
an element of ownership thatcomes along at that point as
well. I don't just feelincluded. I also feel I'd feel
part of it, but I also feel likeI've got some ownership of the
result. And, yeah, we're reallygood. Chris, okay, all right, so
I'll tease the audience. We'regoing to come back to more depth
on some of the inclusion elementand the storytelling at the end.
(09:32):
Creativity. What does a creativeworkplace look like? Some people
may not even feel that. Whatdoes it look like, Jamie?
Jamie Woolf (09:41):
Well, we always
share that creativity doesn't
count. Just come out of anorganization like Pixar, which
you can obviously see, okay,creativity and making films and
the art and the story, butcreativity also comes out of
organ. Organizations where Chrisand I have worked with finance
(10:03):
teams, with procurement teams,with healthcare workers, because
creativity, as we define it, issolving problems. Because when
you're solving a problem, you'recreating something that doesn't
yet exist. You're seeingsomething you're envisioning
something that doesn't yetexist, and so we want to expand
the definition of creativity sothat people don't say, Well, I'm
(10:27):
not creative because I webelieve that all human beings
are creative. You're creativewhen you're figuring out how to
get your kids to childcare andmake it to work on time. You
know, it's just an expansiveview of creativity.
Mick Spiers (10:41):
Yeah, really good,
Jamie, I'm glad the examples you
even gave there. So finally, thetwo of you sitting there, you've
both worked in very creativeindustries that people instantly
think of creativity. Pixar wouldbe a company. Sky dance would be
a company that they wouldinstantly think, oh, yeah,
that's very creative field, andthey won't necessarily think,
(11:02):
well, I can be creative in myworkplace, and it and it doesn't
have to be just in fields likeengineering. It can be in
finance. And you could besolving internal problems inside
the company or external problemsfor our for our customers, if
you have the platform thatallows you to be creative. Which
is going to be where we go withthis? Would you like to add
(11:25):
anything, Chris, aboutcreativity and innovation? What
does it mean to you?
Dr. Christopher Bell (11:30):
Work is
not natural. It's not work is
not natural that we areliterally the only species on
the planet that works. It's not.
It's not a part of the naturalkingdom. You know what is a part
of the natural kingdom? Play.
Every species on the planet,plays. We work everything else
(11:52):
around here, plays. And if youwant to get more out of people,
if you want people to be moreinvested, if you want people to
be more innovative, if you wantthem to have better ideas, you
don't need more work at work.
You need more opportunities forpeople to play. You need more
opportunities for people to becreative, for people to be
collaborative, for people towork together, for people to
bring their fun selves to thetable, and to do it in a low
(12:14):
stress, low pressure, low stakesenvironment. You need that it's
not optional. And in the placeswhere people make it optional,
those workplaces suffer you playis the most important part of
work if you want work toactually get done.
Mick Spiers (12:33):
Yeah, this is, this
is powerful already, for sure.
Chris and I can reflect on thatmyself, and I'll ask the
audience to do that. You knowthat when you're having fun, you
do become more creative and abit bit edgy, etc, etc. It feels
different when you're having abit of fun. In fact, I get
myself lost in a flow state, oralmost, if it's fun, I lose
(12:56):
track of time, and I just get,Oh, what if we did this? What if
we did that all of a sudden, andthere's, you know, there's no
there's no pressure ofstructure, and all this kind of
stuff, we're just having a bitof fun, and before you know it,
we have a eureka moment where weland on something.
Dr. Christopher Bell (13:11):
And that's
where innovation comes from. And
I don't care if you're making amovie or you're making a
spreadsheet, fun is fun, andthere has to be a way to make
that other stuff fun. And if,and if it's not, it will become
tedious. It will become work. Weget locked into this, like work
sucks kind of a space, but itdoesn't have to we make work
(13:34):
suck. It does. It doesn't haveto be that way. There are
there's always somewhere to findcreativity, to find fun, to find
the innovation in everythingthat you do.
Mick Spiers (13:45):
There's a thread
I'm picking up here, Chris and
Jamie, I'd like to test thiswith you. I'm going to come to
you with it, Jamie, I want tolisten to that. I feel like one
of the lessons we need to learnis that creativity also can't be
forced. Like I'm I'm picking anorganization where you're all
going to work harder until youcome up with better, creative
ideas that it doesn't work. Itdoesn't work like that. Jamie,
(14:08):
what's your reflections on that?
Jamie Woolf (14:10):
Well, I also think
that you can't force fun, so it
takes some mastery to figure outhow to not be cringy about we're
going to play. We're going tohave fun. Because I know, for
me, I hate it when facilitatorscome in and say, you know, we're
going to do trust falls, orwhatever it is like, the way
(14:31):
that we introduce play isstrategic and very intentional
and very creative. It's notdisconnected from that
collaborative common ground, andwe also meet people where they
are. So if they're trying tosolve vexing problems around
climate change, we're not goingto just, you know, play and not
(14:53):
connect the debrief to thecomplicated problems that.
Wrestling with. So it's notgratuitous play, and it's not
frivolous. And one of the thingsthat people always mistake at
Pixar is, you know, people areplaying ping pong, and they're,
you know, doing creatingminiature golf courts and and it
(15:19):
looks frivolous, but it's notfrivolous, because there's an
intention behind it. And we needto make that very clear about it
is a workplace. I mean, it is aplace where people are getting
their paycheck and, you know,it's the necessity of putting
food on the table so, so thattakes some mastery. And that's,
(15:42):
that's what we do, is we put alot of thought into how to
introduce play.
Dr. Christopher Bell (15:48):
Yeah, not
every workplace is the same.
Some some people need certainkinds of play, and other people
need other kinds of play. Andthat's part of, you know what
Jamie and I do, is when we comein to do our team assessments,
and we come in to sort ofevaluate the workplace and try
to find ways to make it morecreative, more innovative. Part
of that is, what is thestructure here? Who are the
(16:08):
people here, and what do theyneed, right? Yeah, some a place,
a place like, you know, acreative industry, they may need
their play focused. They mayalready have a lot of play, and
it just needs to be focused in aparticular direction, right?
Someone who has no play in theirworkplace at all, you can't go
in and be like, Let's build upsome miniature golf courses and
(16:31):
blah blah. They're not in thatplace. And that's not the kind
of play they might need.
Something more subtle, morerefined, smaller, smaller
boundaries, whatever. And sothere, as Jamie said, there is
some some skill, some mastery,to be assessing of what people
need in terms of that play andcreativity, and then helping the
people there figure out how toimplement it. Because Jamie and
(16:54):
I are going to go home like theplay we the play we bring is the
is the very short term kind ofwe're here today and we're going
to play. But the importantlessons of that is, how do we
then sustain this? How do webuild this into our workplace so
that it carries on after Jamieand Chris go home?
Mick Spiers (17:13):
Yeah, there's two
important ingredients that are
here there Chris. One is where Ithink there is something missing
in many organization, which isthe dialog or the conversation,
a lot of executive leadershipteams sitting there getting
worried about, you know, we'vegiven the team all of these
things, and we we still don'tknow what they want. Did you ask
(17:34):
them? Did you ask them what theywould like to see happen? So
that was one thing I picked upfrom what you're saying. Then
Chris, and then the second oneis the sustainability. It's not,
oh, we took everyone for a funbowling afternoon. We did that
three months ago. Why aren'tthey happy? You guys, it's got
to be it's got to be sustainableas well. So we're hearing it
(17:57):
can't be forced. Creativitycan't be forced. The play can't
be forced. I'm going to say,Jamie, coming to you on this
one, that there's going to be acouple of different categories
out there. There's going to bepeople that are sitting in very
conservative industries thathave never tried something like
this before, and they don't knowwhere to start. And I say
there's going to be a potentialsecond category of people that
(18:19):
have put bean bags in thelunchroom and and table tennis
tables, etc, etc, and thinking,Oh, that's it. I'm done now.
Well, it didn't work. How docompanies start the right way
with introducing creative playinto the workplace?
Jamie Woolf (18:35):
Yeah, well, I would
say there's creative play and
then there's just creativity,right? So, and I don't want to
throw out some cookbook example,because it's, you know, there is
a diagnosis process at thebeginning where we're really,
you know, figuring out what ismost needed and where people are
(18:57):
and who the personalities are,but at the very fundamental
level, there's the need forinquiry and curiosity. So it's
that mindset setting of we don'tknow we're we're in a state of
not knowing. We're living in thequestion marks where showing
(19:20):
intellectual curiosity andhumility. And one of the things
that Ed Catmull, the formerpresident of Pixar, always said
is I'm wrong more than half thetime, and by him modeling that
as the president of the company,it freed people up to have that
mindset of not knowing. And Ithink most organizations in a
(19:41):
meeting, you're busy provingyourself and you're trying to
get in, you know, a comment thatmakes you look smart so you can
get the promotion or get theboss's favor. But what if we
turn that on its head and wesaid, No, this is about inquiry,
about not knowing, aboutuncertainty. About posing the
right questions. So I thinkthat's a good starting place,
(20:04):
whether you're in a wildlycreative company or one that's
more conservative.
Mick Spiers (20:11):
So there's two
things I'm taking from that,
Jamie. One is the first thingyou said, which is, don't go
cookie cutter. Don't look at thecompany down the road and go,
Well, they did this, start withdiagnosing your own
organization. Who are theplayers. Have a dialog. Ask
them, What would you like to seehappen and what's preventing us
like have a really good, curiousconversation, diagnosing the
(20:33):
current state before you try tomove to a new state. And then
the second part I picked up wasthe role modeling. So if you
want to build an organizationthat's got that curiosity, you
want to build an organizationthat's got that humility to be
able to say, hey, I don't haveall the answers. Start with
yourself. Start with yourself.
Role modeling that behavior. Allright, that leads us, I think,
(20:56):
to an interesting thing that weall discussed before we hit
record, which is about how badbosses can impact creativity.
Now here's the thing that I wantto start with. I'm 99 point X
percent sure that everyone outthere that's got a bad boss, or
even if you're a bad bossyourself, and you don't know it
(21:18):
yet, No one wakes up in themorning and rubs their hands
together and go hands togetherand go, Oh, this is great. I'm
going to go to work. I'm goingto be a real jerk today. No one
does that. So, so why do badbosses possess? How does this
this evolution like only one infive people in the world truly
love their job and like theirboss? One in five. So that means
four or five of us are missingthe queue somehow. How does this
(21:42):
keep on persisting, Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (21:46):
yeah. I
mean, it's the it's a real
problem. You know, we weretalking beforehand about how,
you know, most of the what weconsider bad boss behavior is is
unintentional, right? Because ifit isn't, if it is intentional,
you should quit your job. If youhave a boss who is intentionally
waking up in the morning,rubbing their hands together and
(22:06):
being like, I'm going to be ajerk today, you work for a super
villain. You should go ahead andquit that job. Most of what we
do is unintentional, but thatdoesn't mean it's it's not real.
It doesn't mean it doesn'tactually exist, right? 75% of
people say that their boss, nottheir workload, not the hours,
not their deadlines, their bossis the worst part of their days,
(22:29):
the most stressful part of theirday. You know, 57% of people
have left a job because of theirmanager. And so you feel like
that's real, that's that's notmake believe. That's what people
say. So all of us at some pointhave probably had a bad boss,
(22:51):
but the converse of that is, ifyou are a leader, for 75% of the
people who work for you, you arethe most stressful part of their
day, and that requires some selfreflection, that requires some
self examination of, am I a partof the problem for my employees?
Everyone wants to say, No, I'm agreat boss. And what we are
(23:15):
saying is, are you? Let's findout, because all of us can be
put into places where even thebest bosses can accidentally
exhibit really bad behaviorsthat are very much detrimental
to the people who work for them,you know. So let's give you the
grace of you're trying to be agood boss. Let's find out if you
(23:39):
actually are, and if not, hereare some things we can do to
help move you in the rightdirection.
Mick Spiers (23:44):
Yeah, really good.
It is the bosses, the differencebetween whether someone has a
good day or a really bad day.
And I can tell you, when they gohome to their families, if
they've had a bad day, theydon't go home to their families
going, I You won't believe whatmy spreadsheet did to me today,
right? It'll be, you won'tbelieve what that jerk did
today, what he what he said, orhow he made me feel, or she you
(24:08):
wouldn't believe what Mick didtoday. He was, he's a worst boss
in the world, right? It's that.
It's always the human beings,right? You know, very good. So,
Jamie, same question, how dopeople start, if people are
listening to this, going, am I?
Am I a bad boss? How do I knowif I'm a bad boss, and how do I
take the first steps to be lessbad?
Jamie Woolf (24:29):
Well, one of our
areas of focus are the
incentives, the powerinfrastructure, the power
dynamics in a workplace thataren't good for any woman,
including leaders. So theincentives are often, get the
numbers up, get the profit, getthe results. They're very short
term, and there's a ton ofpressure. So it's not like we're
(24:51):
vilifying bad bosses. They arethe victims of organizations
that are holding themaccountable. Enough to making
profits, for example, that theymight not have complete
influence over so they'restressed out. And we all know
when we're stressed out, we'renot at our best. So we're going
(25:12):
to our tempers might flare. Wemight feel impatient. We might
if we're the type of person toget cautious, we might get
paralyzed. We're going to showup as our worst selves under
that kind of pressure. And thenthe second thing that happens to
leaders is, the higher up yougo, the more distorted the truth
(25:34):
and the more distorted yoursense of power advantage is. And
so we're blind to the advantagesof our power. Like many bosses
will say, Well, I'm notintimidating. I'm a good person.
My door is always open. They'renot aware that, just by virtue
of their title, they areintimidating. And to say, I have
(25:55):
an open door policy, then theonus is on the person to have
the courage to walk into theboss's office, like, take a
minute to remember, when youwere early in career, would you
have walked into your boss'soffice? There a problem?
Mick Spiers (26:10):
Yeah, really good,
Jamie, so I think we do lose
sight of that power dynamic. Weabsolutely do the further we go
up when we we think that we'rereally friendly, etc, but it's,
it doesn't matter. It's that jobtitle is a little intimidating.
And to quote Stan Lee here for amoment, with great power comes
great responsibility, and weneed to remember that the things
(26:33):
that were ringing very true forme, Jamie, when you were saying
that, and I love the empathy ofwhat you were sharing here. I'm
going to use two examples here.
Let's say that a boss wants toembrace empowerment and trust in
their team, but their boss ismicromanaging them. It makes it
very difficult for you toempower and trust your team if
(26:53):
your boss is micromanaging youevery day. So the tone does come
from the top, or it could be,how is performance measured? If
performance is being measured onvery short term financial
results? Well, my behavior isgoing to be driving short term
financial results. That might beat the expense of the people.
(27:13):
Instead of succeeding throughour people and building a long
term sustainable business, Imight staking, start taking
actions that that look, make mynumbers look good this quarter.
But maybe it's not the bestthing, and I feel bad myself
going home at the end of the daygoing, Oh, cringe, but my
performance is being measuredthat way. How does that sit with
(27:35):
you, Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (27:38):
Yeah, no.
I mean, I think all of us,whether we are the person who
works the front desk, or we aresome sort of coordinator, middle
management kind of person, orwhether we're, you know, the
Vice President, if you have aboss, there's A particular
mindset you get locked intoabout feedback, about your about
(28:01):
speaking up. There's a riskinvolved. There's a risk
involved. And for a lot ofpeople, they sit there and they
go, my boss said they have anopen door policy. And I'm seeing
this thing that's happening, andI'd love to, like, raise this
issue, but I gotta feed my kids,and I got a mortgage payment
(28:22):
due, and I gotta pay my carnote. So how about I shut my
mouth and I put my head down,and I do my job, and I'll go
home and I'll complain to mywife about the worst boss in the
world. I'm not gonna, I'm notgonna take advantage of that
open door, because there is a apower blindness. There's a
power, there's a power distancebetween you and the person who
(28:43):
supervises you. And they can saythey want you to come in an open
door, but if they don't activelycome to find you and ask you
questions and solicit yourfeedback, most people are not
going to freely offer that.
They're just not. It's too much.
There's too much skin in thatgame.
Mick Spiers (29:03):
Okay, all right,
and now we're getting even
further disconnected, becausepeople aren't even speaking up
anymore. So that that thatdisconnect as the as the person
gets higher and higher up in theorganization, people aren't even
telling you the truth anymore,because their fear of the
conversation is is too high, andwe need to change that balance
for sure. All right.
Dr. Christopher Bell (29:24):
I work the
front desk, and you're the CEO.
I'm gonna, I'm just gonna getyour coffee and I'm gonna keep
my mouth shut.
Mick Spiers (29:31):
Yeah, really
interesting. So we do need to
create, there's a powerfulsituation here with the role
modeling. If we're gonna tellpeople, I've got an open door
policy, we we get the behaviorthat we celebrate, reward and
tolerate when someone does speakup, we better make sure we damn
listen and to make sure thatthey feel that the benefit of
speaking up outweighs their fearof doing so. Otherwise, they're
(29:55):
going to shut their trap againand they're going to walk off
and just be miserable and notsay anything in the future. And
you can't fix what you don'tknow about. So if you're not
listening, you're not hearingwhat the problems are that you
might be the one that has theinfluence to change that. All
right, so, yeah, really good.
Okay, now I think we've givensome hints to leaders about what
they need to do here, whether,whether it's about the
(30:15):
creativity and play, whetherit's about, am I a bad boss, yes
or no. You know, do a bit ofdiagnostic, do a bit of a
conversation to your team.
What's it like to experience meas a leader and and really
listen and and take action?
Let's flip the script. Whatabout people that are listening
to this show? Going, yeah, yeah,yeah, it's good for Chris, good
(30:37):
for Jamie, but my boss is ajerk. How do I start with that,
Jamie?
Jamie Woolf (30:47):
Well, first of all,
we always say you should not
have to survive your boss. Youjust shouldn't have to survive
your boss. And so given therealities of the prevalence of
bad bosses. The first thing thatwe advocate for is to find your
people, find support, find acoalition, so that you don't
(31:09):
feel like you're alone. It canbe a very disconnected place now
that we're working virtually, sowe have to get creative about
how we build thoserelationships. But we can feel
emboldened when not that we'refinding people to trash talk our
boss, but just for people togive us that feeling of
connection and being whole andbeing seen. So, you know, find
(31:33):
your people, find find acoalition. The second thing is,
because it is so scary when weare coaching people who have a
bad boss, we often find thatthey haven't even tried to
broach a conversation. And sosometimes it is just having the
courage, even just to get thedata to say, you know, when you
(31:55):
interrupt me before I finishspeaking, it makes me feel bad
and see if they're receptive, ifthey're really defensive, or
they, you know, are looking attheir phone while you're talking
and not even listening. That'senough data to tell you to go to
the the other thing that we say,which is, really get out. It's
not worth your mental health.
And so that's no easy task,especially if you have a field
(32:18):
where there's only, you know,limited amount of jobs out there
in your field. So, you know,take the time you need. But we
do say get out, because it takes22 months after you leave a bad
boss, on average, to recovermentally from the confidence
that's been diminished from theMental Health hit. So get out.
Mick Spiers (32:46):
Okay, all right. So
before people start resigning, I
want, I want to make sure peopleon the on the on the some of the
key parts that you said there,Jamie, which is, remember to
practice a little bit ofempathy. Your boss is generally
not turning up purposely being ajerk. They've gone off the rails
at some point. They're not doingit on purpose, and they can't
(33:06):
fix what they don't know about.
So the things I'm hearing fromyou, Jamie, find your allies,
because you do need a supportcrew when you're going through
something like this. And thenstart with something. Actually
try start with something, andmaybe start with something small
and see how the boss reacts ifyou do that, I'm going to say 7,
10 times you've tried to drawsomething to their attention,
(33:28):
and it's gone bad every time,yeah, then I agree with you.
You're in the wrong place. Goand find your tribe somewhere
else. How does that sit you,Jamie?
Jamie Woolf (33:37):
I'm glad Mick that
you mentioned the empathy and I
was neglectful and notamplifying that, because I do
think that most of us are human,whatever power we hold, and so
remembering the pressures thatthat person is under that maybe
made them in a bad mood, and itwasn't about you, and that's not
to give them an excuse, but tolead with compassion, respect
(33:59):
and empathy.
Mick Spiers (34:00):
Yeah. Really good.
All right, so let me reflect onsome of the things I'm taking
away so far, because then I'mgoing to flip a little bit.
We're going to go to a bit toabout inclusive storytelling,
which really captured myattention. So if you're in one
of these organizations, thereare things that you can do if
you want to be more creative.
But start with not cookiecutter. Start thinking about a
(34:21):
diagnostic of of where are youtoday and where do you want to
be? Have a dialog with your teamabout what would good look like,
what would great look like? Whatdo they want to see happen? And
embrace that that creativity isthrough play. It's through
having a bit of fun. It's not,it's not a process that you can
(34:43):
institutionalize and go, youknow, you must be more creative.
It's got to be something thatpeople really get into. And the
leader sets the tone for this.
You can be the one that rolemodels the behaviors of making
it a bit fun, being curious,being humble, being. The
inquisitive mind that says, Whatif we did this? And you know,
you can have these role models.
(35:05):
And then we then we've discussedaround what happens in this bad
boss dynamic, whether you arethe bad boss or you're dealing
with a bad boss, take the timediagnose again and try, try, try
practice some empathy. Have aallies around you and then try
and bring to your boss'sattention the things that are
not landing the way they thinkit's landing because the good
(35:27):
chance they're beingdisconnected and don't even
realize that they're being a badboss. There's some calls to
action there, whether you arethe employee or the team member
or the boss. There's some callsto action that Jamie and Chris
have shared today. Now I want toget into inclusive storytelling,
and we're going to teaseeveryone and say, please go and
(35:48):
watch Dr. Chris Bell's TED Talk.
It is amazing. It captured myattention without any doubt.
What does inclusive storytellinglook like, Chris? And I've heard
you use the terms to make ittransformative instead of
performative?
Dr. Christopher Bell (36:03):
Yeah,
yeah. So two things, number one,
and it's sort of the bridgebetween what we've been talking
about and what we're going totalk about, which is number one,
attitude reflects leadership.
Attitude reflects leadership. Soif you are a leader and you're
(36:23):
like, my team isn't motivated,my team isn't creative, my team
isn't whatever, whatever it'stime to take a look at what
you're doing, because attitudeis reflective of leadership.
Number two is nobody wants to becreative in front of you. Nobody
wants to play in front of you.
(36:46):
They want to be creative withyou. They want to play with you.
So if you're a leader, you can'tgive stuff to your team and be
like, here's some stuff for youto do. You have to be a part of
it. You have to be an activeparticipant. I say both of those
things to say, if we wantenvironments in which people
(37:10):
truly feel invested, truly feelcreative, truly feel like
they're bringing their fullselves to the table, we have to
do as much as as possible to dowhat I call flatten the power
distance, to flatten the powerdistance. So most workplaces
have a sort of a vibe about themwhere some people are down here
(37:30):
and some people are up here, andwhen you say, what I would like
to do is to flatten that so thateveryone's on the same level,
immediately the people who areup here go. What you want to do
is take away from me, so thatI'm down here with these people.
And what I'm asking you to do isnot to do this and move these
people down here. What I'masking you to do is take these
(37:52):
people and move them up here. SoI'm asking you to flatten the
power distance, not by loweringyourself, but by raising up
other people. And the way thatwe do that is we invite their
stories into the workspace, welisten authentically to those
stories in the workplace, and weactually receive and respond to
(38:14):
those stories in ways that letpeople know they matter. Those
are the three things I'm askingpeople to do, I think we get all
we all get bogged down in thelanguage around this. I don't
want to do DEI, or I had to goto diversity training, or I
don't even know what they meanwhen they say equity, or blah,
(38:35):
blah, blah. And what I say isthrow all that stuff out the
window. Throw it out the window,because what I'm asking you to
do is this. I'm asking you tosay, hey, Mick, let's go to
coffee and me. And you sit down,and I go, where are you from?
Mick, tell me about your youknow, where'd you go to school?
Tell me, you know, what do youlike to do on the weekends? What
do you blah, blah, blah. Andthen you say, here's what I like
(38:58):
to do. And, oh, did you knowthis about this place that I
grew up and I go, I visitedthere once, and it was really
cool, man, you and I are tellingstories, and in the process of
you telling me your story and metelling you my story, it's a lot
harder for you to go back toyour desk and be like, I hate
black people, because when yousay stuff like that in your
head, what I always hear is, Idon't Know any black people. I
(39:21):
don't know any gay people. Idon't interact with women in
this way. I don't I I've nevertalked to somebody from this
part of the country, orwhatever, whatever. I think
exposure is the number onedisinfectant for bad
relationships in the workplace.
I think people need to beexposed to each other more, and
so I opportunities to haveconversations, opportunities to
(39:44):
share stories, opportunities totell each other about our lives,
makes it an awful lot harder togeneralize. Makes it an awful
lot harder to paint everyonewith the same brush, because
now. I don't hate white people.
I hate Jamie, and I actuallydon't hate Jamie. I like Jamie,
(40:06):
and Jamie is cool. And now Ihave a person I humanize, I
individualize, I localize in away that makes it a lot harder
for me to be awful to otherpeople.
Mick Spiers (40:20):
Yeah, really
powerful, Chris. I'll share some
of the things I'm taking away.
So I'm hearing ditching termslike I and you, and making it
more we a bit more co creation,but doing so by raising people
up. So the inclusion is to drawpeople up into the conversation.
And I'm going to use a term thatyou hear all the time. Hear
about executives getting down inthe trenches, and I'm hearing
(40:43):
the opposite from you. How aboutlifting people out of the
trenches and having a reallygood conversation with them?
Then if we want to create anorganization that got has got
diversity of thought, peopleneed to feel included. How do
they feel included? Get curious.
Learn a bit about theirbackground and what inspires
(41:03):
them and go and take a coffeemeeting with them. Like
curiosity, a great connection isat the other end of that curious
conversation, then you know,like and trust each other more,
and then you can create cocreate more, because you you
feel like you've got a bond withthose people. How, how does, how
does that say with you, Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (41:21):
You are.
You are not a set of hands thatdraws advertising. You're a
person who went to art schoolbecause you like to draw.
There's a thing. There's a thingthere. You are not a a thing
that sits in a you're not a databased creation machine that I
parked in a cubicle. You're aperson who has kids who are
(41:45):
important to you, and they havehopes and dreams, and you're
trying to send your kids tocollege like the more we can I,
admittedly, in my work, make alot of fun of very serious
people. Capital V, capital S,capital P, with a little
(42:06):
trademark symbol behind it. I domake a lot of fun of very
serious people because most ofus, the vast majority of us, do
not do things that are veryserious. We don't, and because
everything doesn't have to be Idon't want people to be getting
down in the trenches with otherpeople. Because we are not at
(42:26):
war. We're not at war. We tellstories about animated
characters on a screen, right?
We're not at war. We sell coatsin the mall like, come on. So
because of that, there's alwaysspace to humanize there's always
space to talk to the people. Andguess what, even in war, the
(42:48):
reason we like war movies somuch is not because of the
battles, it's because of the twopeople who have to sit side by
side in the foxhole. That's thething you connect to. It's not
the guns and the bullets and thebombs
Mick Spiers (43:00):
And so including
their including their backstory,
including their backstory,Chris.
Dr. Christopher Bell (43:04):
Not you
don't love Saving Private Ryan
because you like the stormingthe beach at Normandy. You like
Saving Private Ryan because it'sa story of a mother who lost
four of her five sons, and theone son who's left is out there
to feel somewhere, and we careabout him, and we're going to go
get him like he has a backstory,he has a family, he has a
(43:25):
history, and that's what youcare about. When everyone uses
all this we're in the trenchesand we're at war and blah, blah,
blah, I always remind peoplewe're about people stories, the
stories of the people who are inthe thing. And that matters,
whether we are shooting gunsacross a field or whether we're
all just sitting in cubiclesdesigning an advertisement like
(43:46):
it, it's the people are thething that matters.
Mick Spiers (43:49):
Yeah, really good.
And that's where we can buildthat empathy, when we understand
that person's backstory andwhat, what's important to them,
the person that went to artschool, because I like to draw,
what? What is it about drawingthat likes? How does it light
you up? Get curious and knowmore about them. Jamie, I want
to come to you with a curiousquestion. The three of us are
together on this conversationtoday because you saw Chris' TED
(44:11):
Talk and inspired you to reachout to him. Tell me how you felt
watching his TED Talk.
Jamie Woolf (44:21):
Well as somebody
who has two kids and daughters,
and first of all, I was just soemotionally overtaken when I saw
Chris as a father the deep carehe has for his daughter. I mean,
(44:41):
I have to say, like, I'll get tothe other things. But like,
whoa, true confession. Like, Ididn't have a father who, who
was like that, like that, youknow, I had more of a typical
father off to work, not, youknow, kind of absent and so,
like, the fierce. Passion thatChris shows in his TED Talk and
(45:04):
and with vulnerability about,you know, what kind of world he
wants to create for hisdaughter. And then you know,
after that, all of the evidencethat he shows about the
disparity in what is accessiblefor boys in the terms of
consumer products and for girls,and what that impact is on girls
(45:26):
in our society. And then Ithought about consumer products
at Disney and Pixar. And youknow how it's been for me,
shopping for, you know, havingtwo kids who one is non binary.
Now, one, you know, a daughter,neither were girly girls. And
(45:47):
you know, there were no consumerproducts that I felt got my kids
either. So there was just, therewas a heart connection. And then
when I met Chris, like, Okay,this heart connection is, this
is going places. Thisrelationship has legs, and here
we are now, all these yearslater.
Mick Spiers (46:07):
Yeah, well done. So
for those that haven't watched
it yet, and I do encourage youto go and watch it, Chris talks
about the media's role, and whenwe say media, we're through to
motion pictures and what youfind in the supermarket aisles,
etc. The the way that genderbias is is reinforced and and
that you know you when you golooking for superhero
(46:29):
characters, as an example, youwon't find very many female
superhero characters in the inthe supermarket. I won't spoil
the TED talk. Go and watch it.
You're going to be shocked bywhat you see, Chris, I can tell
you, I wrote an article a fewyears ago. I believe that gender
bias is reinforced even beforeyou were born. So I'm going to
share a story about when my son,when my wife was pregnant with
(46:52):
my son, and we were sharing thestory and saying, oh, you know,
we're pregnant. We're soexcited. And then people would
ask with curiosity to beginwith, Oh, do you know if you're
having a boy or a girl? I say,yeah, yeah, we're having a boy.
The reaction was always, oh, youmust be so proud. And I would
always stop and think, Well, ifI said I was going to have a
(47:13):
girl, would you what were yougoing to say? That it feels very
real. I I can't put my finger onit. And then when I watch your
TED talk, I go, yes, we continueto reinforce this in all of our
shows. If you watch somethinglike cocamelon, I can tell you,
and they and they try theirbest, I think, to be a bit more
balanced, but they'll have fivemonkeys jumping on the bed the
(47:35):
song, and three of the monkeyswill be boys, and two will be
girls, and then I think aboutall of the storytelling in my
childhood. If there was a girlin the story, she was the token,
and the rest were boys. It'svery real. It's very real. How
do we fix this, Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (47:55):
Well, no,
I think it's a how do we fix it?
Well, there's, there's a lot ofmoving parts here, right? But
what I do think, number one is,you know, evil, evil dies in the
light, right? I think, I thinkwhen we, when we shine lights on
things, people, you know,things, things, crawl out of the
(48:19):
darkness when you shine a lighton them. And so I think that's
really important. Having theconversations is important. I
always say that it doesn'tmatter what you because I work
with students a lot, right? So,you know, in academia, and I
always tell students or parentsor whoever, when I'm working
with people, it doesn't matterwhat you want to do in life, it
doesn't matter what job youhave, it doesn't matter where
(48:40):
you live, how you vote, whereyou raise your kids. The most
important skill you can have in2025 is media literacy. It's
understanding what you areconsuming and what's behind what
you are consuming. I say, youknow, media literacy sounds
really scary and sounds like abig term, mostly because the
(49:02):
vast majority of adult humanbeings are functionally media
illiterate. They don'tunderstand how media operate,
because media are designed forpassive consumption, and so you
don't know how to zoom actively.
So I always say three questions.
If you can answer these threequestions, you are more media
(49:23):
literate than most adult humanbeings on the planet, anything
you watch, anything you read,anything you hear, anything you
consume, you can ask, Who madethis? What is this trying to
teach me, and who benefits fromme learning that. And if you can
ask those three questions,you're in the ball game, right?
(49:47):
Who made this What is it tryingto teach me, and who benefits
from me learning that? I say, ifyou want to change the
relationship that we have toeach other, you. Whether that's
around gender or around race oraround religion or around
nationality, or pick a thinggenerations, pick a thing you
(50:09):
want to change the nature ofthose relationships. Teach
people to ask those threequestions, because there's a
vested interest in media.
There's a vested interest in younot asking those questions. Why?
The why is not ideological, thewhy is financial. They don't
want you asking those questionsso that they can sell you stuff.
(50:33):
So if you can get past thesethings, it makes it more likely
that you are going to be savvyabout what you consume. You're
going to ask good questions.
You're not just going to be ledaround by the nose. It makes it
more likely that you are goingto be able to enter into
conversations with other humanbeings, because you're not just
(50:57):
believing what you're reading orbelieving what you're seeing on
television or on Facebook orwhatever, you're actually able
to have human conversations, andyou understand there is, there
are people who benefit from youbelieving certain things, even
when those things are not true,and oftentimes especially when
those things are not true.
Mick Spiers (51:17):
I'm going to say
that I like what you said about
bringing light to the dark. Whatworries me, in the last thing
you said, is the resistance fromchange will come from the people
that are benefiting from thestatus quo. So so it's not going
to necessarily be easy, but, butI do think you're right. The
heart of what I'm hearing Chrisis critical thinking. And I
think we are losing our criticalthinking skills, and we just
(51:40):
consume.
Dr. Christopher Bell (51:40):
Consumer
being taken from us. There's a
different we're not losing them.
They're literally actively beingtaken from us.
Mick Spiers (51:48):
Yeah. Okay, so I
like what you said. What is the
source of this? What is what isits provenance? Is this a
trustworthy source? What is ittrying to teach me, and who is
benefiting from me, thinking,doing or feeling something
different, because I justconsumed this. Yeah, really
powerful. I want to quicklybring this to the workplace a
(52:08):
little bit this inclusivestorytelling. I'm going to stick
my own hand up here and andshare some feedback that I
recently received. First of all,I'm proud that person told me,
by the way, because I would havehad no idea if I didn't know. So
they had the courage to tell meabout this. But I can tell you
that when I do storytelling inthe workplace and I'm trying to
fix this, by the way, that'sreally hard. I my metaphors. 90
(52:33):
out of 100 of them are sportsmetaphors, and I lose people
that aren't interested insports. Bang, straight, like
straight, like that. And quiteoften, by the way, I'm
Australian, so quite often it'scricket or rugby. If you're not
Australian, you probably don'teven know what the hell I'm
talking about. So one thing I'mgoing to say in the workplace
(52:53):
around inclusive storytelling,think about your audience and
and if the person can't seethemselves or relate to the
story, the story is not going towork. How does that sit with
you, Jamie?
Jamie Woolf (53:05):
I just went
straight to an executive meeting
that I used to go to regularly,where for the first five or 10
minutes, the men would talkabout sports. And I immediately
felt if I didn't already feellike the outsider, because I was
the, you know, one of maybe twowomen now I really felt on the
(53:27):
outskirts, because they're allbonding, and I don't know what
the hell they're talking about.
So I resonate with that.
Mick Spiers (53:33):
Yeah, okay, so
that's a, it's a small call to
action to finish the show whenyou're doing it's, it's
inclusive storytelling, but it'salso inclusive language. Think
the language that uses reallypowerful. So think about the
language that you're using,thinking about if there's
implicit bias in the questionsthat you ask. So ask, when you
(53:54):
go back to that curiosity thatChris and Jamie were talking
about before, ask very openquestions, questions that don't
have any judgment in themwhatsoever. And then we can
start breaking some of these thepower of language and making
sure that our stories arerelatable to everyone, not not
just a small subset ofAustralians that like cricket
(54:17):
and rugby. Okay, all right,there's been so many great
takeaways from today'sconversation, Chris and Jamie,
I'd like to take us now to ourRapid Round. These are the same
four questions we ask all of ourguests, and I'm going to give
you both the opportunity toanswer all of these, but we'll
need to be kind of quick. Sowhat's the one thing that you
know now? Chris Bell, that youwish you knew when you were 20?
Dr. Christopher Bell (54:43):
I wish
that I knew that there were
doors that I thought were closedthat were only closed because I
didn't have the courage to move
Mick Spiers (54:55):
Ohh okay.
Dr. Christopher Bell (54:57):
I wish I
knew that it was going to be.
Okay for me to not live in thesame five mile radius of all of
my friends that I grew up with,of my house, of my parents, of I
wish I knew it was okay for meto spread fly.
Mick Spiers (55:13):
That hits home
really hard. All right, really
good. What's the one thing youknow now, Jamie wolf that you
wish you knew when you were 20?
Jamie Woolf (55:20):
I just say the
first thing that came to mind,
it's very personal. I wish Iknew now how lucky I was to be
an only child raised by a singlemom. I often looked at my
friends who had, you know, bigfamilies. I now know that those
(55:40):
families are probably fraughtwith all sorts of things, and I
had such a close relationshipwith my mom, but I think I felt
somewhat less than a lot of mychildhood because of that.
Mick Spiers (55:53):
Interestingly, I
like the gratitude, and I think
we lose sight of havinggratitude of what we have and
thinking about what we don'thave, we do that far too often?
Yeah, really good. Jamie, what'syour favorite book?
Jamie Woolf (56:06):
I don't know. It's
hard to zero down to one
favorite book. I cannot do that.
But one book that really stayedwith me, and I thought was so
beautiful and such greatstorytelling, was by Gabriel
Zevin, called tomorrow andtomorrow and tomorrow.
Mick Spiers (56:22):
Okay, don't know
that one. Okay. All right, I'll
have to look into that one. Allright, really good. Chris,
what's your favorite book?
Dr. Christopher Bell (56:28):
Easily,
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy.
Mick Spiers (56:31):
Okay, there's a lot
of creative storytelling in
there. That's really cool. Okay,what's your favorite quote,
Chris?
Dr. Christopher Bell (56:37):
What's my
favorite quote? Um, oh, man,
what's my favorite quote? That'sa that's a hard one. Um, I was
gonna try to come up withsomething, something, you know,
clever or whatever, but I thinkat the end of the day, I'm a
Spider Man guy, you know, andwith great power comes great
(56:57):
response.
Mick Spiers (56:57):
Oh, wow. We just
came full circle from before?
Yeah, really good. That's reallyimportant. That's Yes, it comes
from a Spider Man story, butthink about that in the
workplace. Yeah, really good.
Jamie, what's your favoritequote?
Jamie Woolf (57:13):
Again, I don't know
if it's my favorite, but be the
change that you wish to see inthe world, because I think it
gives us all agency to bepowerful.
Mick Spiers (57:20):
Outstanding, and
the role modeling that we were
talking about before as well,rings very loudly in that one.
Finally, there's going to bepeople listening to this, and
whether it's inclusivestorytelling or, more
importantly, changing thecreativity and innovation
culture in their workplace. Howdo they're going to be curious
(57:40):
to know more about your servicesand and how they can get
started. They they want to dothis, but they don't know how.
How do people find you, Jamie?
Jamie Woolf (57:50):
Our website is
www.creativity-partners.com, and
you can find us. I'mjamie@creativity-partners.com.
Chris ischris@creativity-partners.com.
Mick Spiers (58:04):
All right,
brilliant. I'm so glad that the
world brought the two of youtogether. You have incredibly
complimentary skills, and you'veyou're both very purpose driven,
and you're on a mission that Ithink is a really powerful one,
not just about the creativityand the innovation, but about
the change in the workplace,people spend up to 1/3 of their
(58:25):
life in the workplace. Theydon't deserve to work in a
workplace with a toxic culture.
They all deserve to work in aworkplace where they feel
included and where they feelseen, heard and valued, that
they're doing somethingimportant. So thank you both for
finding each other and thank youboth for the work that you do
and thank you for your timetoday sharing your wisdom.
Jamie Woolf (58:47):
Thank you so much,
Mick, your listening and
questioning is so beautiful. Itreally is.
Mick Spiers (58:54):
What an amazing
conversation. A huge thank you
to Jamie Woolf and Dr. Chrisbell for joining us today and
sharing their wisdom with suchclarity, compassion and courage,
there's one thing I hope youtake from today. It's this.
Creativity isn't a job title,it's a mindset. It's not
reserved for artists oranimators. It's for anyone who
(59:15):
solves problems, makes decisionsor dreams of doing things
better. And most of all,creativity requires inclusion,
not just making people feelincluded, but making sure they
are included they have a voiceownership and a seat at the
table, and we as leaders have animportant role here. We can
(59:36):
either create a platform ofcreativity, or we can be the one
that's stifling the creativityin the organization. In the next
episode, I'll be sharing my owntakeaways from today's
discussion with Jamie and Chris,talking about inclusion and
talking about cultures ofcreativity.
(01:00:00):
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject, YouTube channel, where
(01:00:21):
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do take
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.