May 12, 2025 • 44 mins
The secret to building customer loyalty might be hiding in plain sight—within your own team. In this fascinating conversation with Lynn Daniel, founder and CEO of The Daniel Group, we uncover the powerful connection between remarkable customer experiences and dedicated employees who stay for decades.
Lynn's story begins with a resourceful decision in the early 2000s to create a remote work environment long before it became mainstream. What started as a financial necessity evolved into a strategic advantage, revealing that when people are trusted rather than monitored, they respond with loyalty and exceptional performance. Through authentic stories and practical wisdom, Lynn shares how genuine empathy, cultural alignment, and respectful leadership have created an environment where people genuinely want to stay.
The conversation explores several game-changing approaches to leadership, including "episodic coaching" that replaces ineffective annual reviews with immediate, context-rich feedback. Lynn's refreshing philosophy—"I'm far more interested in having you beg forgiveness than ask permission"—demonstrates how empowerment and trust become the bedrock of organizational resilience. His three-part mission of having fun, making money, and creating positive impact for clients provides a simple but powerful framework for meaningful work.
Whether you're struggling with high turnover or simply want to create a more engaged workplace, Lynn's insights reveal that the fundamental human desires to feel seen, heard, and valued lie at the heart of both employee loyalty and customer satisfaction. The leadership principles shared go beyond theory—they've been tested through economic ups and downs, proving that values-driven leadership isn't just compassionate, it's competitively advantageous.
🌐 Connect with Lynn:
• Website: https://www.thedanielgroup.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thedanielgroup/
• Email: LynnDaniel@thedanielgroup.com
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🔔 Join us in our mission at The Leadership Project and learn more about our organisation here: https://linktr.ee/mickspiers
📕 You can purchase a copy of the Mick Spiers bestselling book "You're a Leader, Now What?" as an eBook or paperback at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09ZBKK8XV
If you would like a signed copy, please reach out to sei@mickspiers.com and we can arrange it for you too.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick Spiers (00:01):
If your team were free to leave tomorrow, would
they choose to stay? What makessomeone not just work for you,
but stay with you year afteryear? What if the key to
customer experience lies in howwe treat our own people? In
today's episode, I'm joined byLynn Daniel, the founder and CEO
(00:22):
of the Daniel group. What makesLynn's story truly compelling is
that in an industry notoriousfor high turnover, his team has
stuck with him for decades. Soget ready to take notes and be
inspired as we learn the realsecret sauce behind Lynn's low
turnover.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I'm
(00:44):
greatly honored today to bejoined by Lynn Daniel. Lynn is
the CEO of the Daniel group, anorganization that helps other
companies to measure, manage andimprove customer experience. But
here's the thing, in an industrythat typically has a very high
turnover, Lin's organization hasa very low turnover. So that's
(01:09):
what we're going to exploretoday. What does it take to
create a resilient organizationwith a low turnover, and what is
the impact of doing so? Sowithout any further ado, I want
to know the secret sauce thatLynn has got here, and I'm sure
what you do as well. Lynn, I'dlove to hear from you a little
bit of your background, and thenwhat inspired you in this area
(01:32):
around customer experience andhow this resilient organization
with a low turnover impacts thatbusiness.
Lynn Daniel (01:43):
Thanks a lot. I really looking forward to our
discussion today. A little bitof history about us. I started
the firm in 89 we were doingmarket research, strategic
planning work, mostly in late1990s early 2000s we started
(02:03):
working with some clients, acouple of Caterpillar dealers,
and I noticed several things.
One, was not as much awarenessas you might expect of customers
that were they were losing outthe back door, of people walking
away. So we started made a pitchto one of our clients and said,
hey, we'd like to offer you achance to get better feedback
(02:25):
from the customers on an ongoingbasis. So we did they they
started with us Blanchardmachinery, which is a
caterpillar dealer in SouthCarolina, and I'm pleased to say
they're still a client for us.
Enjoy working with them greatly,but we started with them, and
(02:48):
things basically sort of tookoff on their own, and we grew
through just doing a great joband in letting people talk about
what we did for them. As we gotstarted, we had to have people
to make phone calls. Because,remember, this was early 2000s
(03:08):
late 1990s the use of digitalfeedback was not quite as large
as it is now. So we neededinterviewers. We needed people
make phone calls with thesecustomers, and so that's when I
started hiring, creating a callcenter. Well, it was a little
different call center, becauseeven back then, everything was
(03:31):
remote, so people work fromtheir homes. Necessity, they
say, is the mother of invention.
Well, it was a necessity for me,because I, frankly, didn't have
the money to rent space to put alot of people in? Well, it
turned out that that was a bitof a hidden strength for us,
because we found out thatpeople, one liked to work in
this remote environment, andtwo, with technologies as they
(03:52):
evolved, we were able to monitorwhat they were doing, making
sure it met our qualitystandards and making sure about
our productivity standards. Andalong the way, we, I think,
develop this culture aroundpaying attention, listening to
our researchers. Are the peoplewho are doing the interviews and
(04:14):
trying to help them understandone how to do a better job. And
then also, they helped us to inmany times, in being responsive
to our clients. If there was asudden problem, sudden issue
that a customer mentioned, wethey made sure that got back to
our clients. So I think for us,it really took a lot of of work
(04:36):
hiring the right people. I can'temphasize that enough people
have to mesh in well into yourculture. You can't have in our
case, we can't have those thatwant to be lone rangers and want
to go out and do their ownthing. We've got to work as a
team. And I think that's one ofthe things that's been the
(04:58):
secret. Of our success over theyears and keeping a very loyal
workforce where the turnover is,while we still have turnover,
you're going to have turnover inthis business. It's much lower
than any benchmarks we look atfor turnover in this situation.
Mick Spiers (05:18):
So first of all, Lynn, I want to say
congratulations on your success.
If you've got customers that arestill with you 30 years later,
that speaks volumes. I also lovethe resourcefulness of you
finding essentially what is nowthe work from home or hybrid
experience that we're allexperiencing now. You are. You
were a pioneer of that, and youwere 30 years ahead of the rest
(05:39):
of us there as well. The keymessage I heard there, Lynn, is
listening. So in this customerexperience world, you've picked
up that. Well, if you've got anorganization that's losing
customers, are they listening tothe customers? So are they
listening? Why aren't thecustomers sticking with us? What
is that feedback? And what arewe going to do with that
(06:01):
feedback? But then you'reimmediately turning that to your
team and going okay with ourteam if we want our team to
stick around, are we listeningto our team? So listening to
customers to make sure you knowwhat success looks like for them
and why they would leave versuswhy they would stay. And to me,
that's the same with our people.
(06:24):
If we're not listening to ourpeople, they're going to find
the exit door. How does that sitwith you, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (06:29):
That's absolutely true. We have several managers,
the front line, managers, forthis team of 80 some odd people,
and they are just excellent atworking with the team, working
with the individuals, givingthem feedback, training them,
coaching them honestly. Mick,they have a lot more patience
(06:50):
than I would have, but thatjust, that's just me, that's
they. That's why I they're intheir jobs, and I'm in mine,
because I don't think I would dovery well sometimes in their
job, but, but it's thatlistening is it's also goes
beyond listening to express someconcern. For example, we've got
a long time employee now who isbattling cancer, whenever we
(07:15):
have one of our employees,especially a long time, or who's
facing a serious issue likethis, we don't just ignore them.
We'll do things like providesome meals for the families if
they're not able to do anythingat that point, we'll do other
(07:35):
things, because sometimes theone I mentioned is facing the
cancer problem right now, thechallenge with cancer is she's
one of these active, gregarious,really, really effective
interviewers. She could talk tomost anyone, anywhere, and get
the answers that you're we'relooking for. But this bout with
(08:00):
the illness and the treatmentshave really made it very
difficult. So sometimes, some ofour people, I know, I've heard
through the grapevine, they'lljust give her a call and say,
Tina, how are you doing?
Anything we can do for you?
How's it going? Now, she's stillworking part time, but that's an
example of concern, and I thinkin the day's world, just showing
(08:23):
that empathy, showing thatconcern, and I should say,
meaningful concern, it makes alot of difference with your
employees.
Mick Spiers (08:32):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry to hear
that your staff member is goingthrough that, and now our
thoughts and prayers are withthem at this moment, what I'm
hearing there is is two things.
It's empathy and loyalty. Sowhen we're loyal to our staff,
when they're going through atough time, it builds loyalty in
return. They'll always rememberthat. I'm going to double down
(08:52):
and say, not only will thatperson remember it, Lynn,
everyone else sees it. And hegoes, Oh, wow. The company looks
after our people. Well, I'mgoing to stick around here,
because if I fall on hard timesone day, I know that Lynn's not
going to, you know, boot me outthe door. He's, he's going to be
there for me when I need it.
Lynn Daniel (09:13):
And I think another thing, Mick is, I will have to
say I'm not really a strict oneabout did you show up at eight
o'clock, and did you leave atfive? I said to people early on.
I said, if I have to manage yourtime, you don't need to be
working here. You're responsiblefor managing your time and
getting the work done. Sosometimes this means that, you
(09:35):
know, some people may take offearly, but I can tell you if
we're at the end of the monthand we've got a crunch that we
maybe for whatever reason. Youknow, there could have been
storms in part of the US so wewere not able to complete our
required quota. They're going tobe on the phone, they're going
to be working, they're going tobe making sure to the degree
possible that our clients getwhat they pay for. And so that's
(10:01):
the kind of thing that I seehappening. If that empathy, that
concern and that loyalty isthere, that's what happens. What
I've seen happen with employees.
Mick Spiers (10:14):
No one likes a clock watcher. Lena, I can tell
you what happens in those clockwatching businesses where
they're worried about whethersomeone's clocked on it eight
and clocked off at four ispeople just pretend anyway, they
just sit there, and in the lasthour of the day they kind of
moving their mouse around, orthey're doing something that
looks busy, but they're they'renot fully engaged anyway. But if
(10:36):
you have this to and fro, this,this give and take, I tell you
what, they give a lot back when,when it matters most, right? So,
yeah, really, really good. Lynn,all right. So the other thing
that you picked up on before wasyou making the right hiring
decisions, right? So, and theword I heard from you loud and
clear was culture. Tell us abouthiring for culture instead of,
(11:00):
let's say maybe skills andexperience. How does it fit with
you?
Lynn Daniel (11:05):
Let me share a story with you about this
happened about almost 10 yearsago. Now, I knew that I needed
to have someone to back me up. Iwould be retiring at some point,
and so we need to have someoneto run the company, I was very
hesitant to go the traditionalHeadhunter route, primarily
(11:25):
because I think you're I'm notknocking Headhunters, but too
often it's luck of the draw interms of the fit that you have
between the person you hire inyour organization. So I did it a
little differently this time, Iactually hired a psychologist
from Davidson College, and Isaid, John, I need some help. I
(11:48):
want you to go. I want you totalk to the key members of our
organization, and I want you tounderstand our culture, and I
want you to find out what kindsof characteristics does a person
need to have to be successful inour company? So he did that. And
(12:08):
the approach we took, or I took,and then he took, as well, was
we will circulate the jobdescription, which came out of
this analysis that he did withnetworks. He had networks I had.
Well, it so turned out that hehad a student from from years
ago that he'd stayed in touchwith. The fellow was a senior
(12:31):
executive Bank of America, andhe became one of the four
finalists. Now, Doug, our CEO,brings a lot of really good
technical skills, but he'd neverworked in our kind of business.
He was a banker. He was inproduct development and various
other roles at Bank of America,so he never worked in our
(12:55):
business. But what wascompelling to me about Doug is
he fit so well with the culturethat we have? The feedback I got
from the employees, because heinterviewed with everybody on
our management team before wesigned the deal with him, what I
found was they, they reallythought he would be a good match
(13:18):
for our culture, and it it'sbeen a fantastic match. You
know, I consider Doug just soeffective with our team members.
He brings some theme, someskills to the to the table that
I do not have. So I think wecomplement each other very well.
He's just been a fantasticleader for the company. But I
(13:41):
think it took that time, thateffort, to say, what are the
characteristics that a goodleader needs to have in our
company like ours.
Mick Spiers (13:52):
There's a few really key things I'm hearing
there. Lynn and you finishedwith one key one, which is time,
taking the time to find theperson with the right cultural
fit. Sometimes we can get into abit of a panic, and we go, oh,
we must fill this role. Andmaybe we go a bit too fast. If
we pick the wrong person, it'sgoing to have a detriment to our
(14:12):
team. It's not just that persondidn't work out, and that's
expensive. If they turn out tobe a mismatch to the culture. It
can be quite toxic. And itdoesn't just impact that one
mishire, it impacts everyonearound them. But if we take the
time and take an extra month,take an extra two months to find
the right person, you're notgoing to do damage. How does
(14:35):
that sit with you?
Lynn Daniel (14:36):
That is absolutely true. I've had, we had another
situation. It was not the samelevel of higher as Doug, but it
was a senior manager in thecompany, and I think we've paid
a little too much attention toskill set and not enough
attention to culture. And hedidn't, I think he lasted about
(14:58):
six months. But. And the problemwas there were two things. One,
he, it turned out the skill setswe thought he had, he didn't
have them to the degree that hehad the state he had them. So
that was one thing. But thesecond thing is, when you get a
person in that's not a fit,other people notice it, and they
(15:20):
start asking questions. Now Iwas probably, I probably would
have been the last person tohave been asked questions about
it, but I know there werediscussions around the office
about this particular person andthe degree to which, yeah, could
he fit? And could he fit andwork out well in our company?
(15:40):
And he couldn't, so it was a hitto us for time, for money to
hire him, and then we had to goin another direction when we
actually need to fill which alsoincurred more cost. So I think
taking Mick, I can honestly say,taking the time just really
(16:01):
trying to understand, yes, yougotta understand skill sets. And
I think there, we probablydidn't get enough information
about skill sets in that hire.
But also just tell me what turnsyou on, what what excites you,
what brings you joy, if, when inthe interview process, because
it's, it's these so called softand tangible things that really
(16:22):
do shape that person and shapethe way they're going to fit
into your culture.
Mick Spiers (16:32):
Yeah, really good, lean. And there's going to be
people that are listening tothis audience that are trying to
process that. And I want to playsomething to you and see where
we go with this, because we'lltalk about the skill sets versus
culture here for a moment. So insome jobs, the skills can be
taught, right? So I'm talkingentry level jobs where you know
what, anyone can learn this. Aslong as they've got the right
(16:54):
mindset, they've got the rightaptitude, the right attitude,
they can learn how to do this,then there's going to be people
that are listening to this,Lynn, and they're going to be
going, Yeah, that's okay forentry level jobs, but if I've
got a job where there is somekind of qualification needed, it
might be an engineering jobwhere the person needs an
engineering degree. Now what I'mgoing to say here, that I'm
(17:16):
going to test with you, is, whenyou get in that situation, the
qualifications are the tablestakes, but it's not what gets
you the job. So if I'm going torecruit for an engineer that
that must be have an engineeringdegree, the engineering degree
is just going to be the tick inthe box, and then I'm going to
start the interview, and in theinterview I'm going to look for
(17:38):
the attitude, I'm going to lookfor the culture. What makes them
tick. I love the questions thatyou're asking. How does that sit
with you?
Lynn Daniel (17:47):
That's exactly how we look at it. Mick, we have,
really, over the last five orsix years, started to change
even more of what we do in theinterview process. So we
continue to pay we will alwayspay close attention to this
issue of how they look at theworld beyond what their skill
(18:10):
set is. Do they have respect forpeople? I think that's a
fundamental in the world we livein now. You know, we we have to
have respect for people. If not,we just can't. We just can't run
the organization.
Mick Spiers (18:24):
Yeah, spot on. So respect is a great one. And
before, one of the other thingsthat I picked up that you were
doing when you did this, insteadof just going to call it a
throwaway line, oh, we want torecruit someone that will fit
into our culture. Well, what youdid differently is you had your
recruiter understand the culturebefore they went looking for a
(18:46):
culture fit. So what is it aboutthis place and respect might be
the top of the list for yourcompany? For another company, it
might be something elsealtogether. But if you don't
know what those things are, it'shard to go and find out, find
the person that's going to fitin beautifully. So take the time
to understand what your peopleexperience today. What is it
(19:07):
about the culture that with acompany like yours, Lynn, with a
low turnover, what is it thatthey love about the plays? Then
let's make sure that we recruitsomeone that's not going to come
in and be a square peg in around hole.
Lynn Daniel (19:21):
Yes, absolutely true. And I think I wish more
companies would pay moreattention to this question of
culture, this question ofcultural fit. Some are better at
it than others, but I stillthink that's an area of
improvement that's needed formany, perhaps most companies,
(19:43):
particularly, I was looking atsome latest Gallup numbers about
engaged employees in the US,we're now down to about a third
of the employees are trulyengaged in their jobs, so that,
right there is telling. Need tome, pay more attention to the
culture. What kind of cultureyou want to have? What kind of
(20:06):
culture do you have? And thisperson coming in fit with that
culture?
Mick Spiers (20:12):
Yeah, well said.
And those Gallup results, like,I gotta say, they're not getting
any better at the moment, and weneed to do something different
if we want a different result.
All right, so we've gone througha bit of a process here where
we're making sure we're bringingthe right people in the door.
But it can't finish there.
Lindy, you've got anorganization with a very low
turnover, and I've got to saythat turnover is very expensive.
(20:35):
I don't know if anyone listeningto the show has looked into how
much it costs to onboard new newstaff members. It's very
expensive when you when you havesomeone leave the business and
you have to replace them, it's avery expensive exercise to go
through, what is your secretsauce? How have you got your
your turnover so low? I'm surethe audience will want to know.
Lynn Daniel (21:00):
I think we have an informal understanding around
our company. Becomes very formalwhen someone comes in, and
generally I will be other thansome of the frontline
interviewers. I will intervieweverybody coming in for a new
job. And one of the things thatwhen we hire them, I have a chat
(21:21):
with them, and said, Okay, thisis who we are. You. You've
learned about us, you've decidedyou want to join us, but let me
tell you a little bit more aboutus and the really two things I
say to them. First, we're hereon this earth to and in our in
this business. To one, have somefun. Two, make some money. And
(21:45):
three, make a difference, apositive difference for our
clients, not necessarily in thatorder, but I think we generally
live by that. So if we've got tospend extra time on a phone call
to get some clear answers for aclient. We do that. You know,
people don't get in troublebecause they spent, you know,
(22:06):
more than X number of minutes ona phone call. That's just the
way we are. The second thing Isay to them, which I think also
describes a lot about ourculture, is I've always said to
each new employee coming in, Iam far more interested in having
you beg forgiveness than askpermission. Why? I think that
(22:30):
tells, that communicates topeople that you know you you've
got some responsibility that youneed to fulfill yourself. Will
you make a mistake? Yep, sure.
Will I've made many over thecourse of my career. But you
know, you don't make a mistakeunless you try. And we want to
have an organization in whichpeople feel free to try and at
(22:50):
least explore things that peoplemay not believe are valid,
perhaps may not believe they'reuseful. Perhaps, I mean, we've
had some things that have comeup that from suggestions or
employees that have really beenvery beneficial, but I think the
only way that it was to becomebeneficial is because they felt
(23:14):
comfortable raising what, insome people's minds might have
been a little bit of a crazyidea.
Mick Spiers (23:23):
Really good, Lynn, I'm going to play back to you
what I'm hearing and what Ithink is going to be a large
element of your secret saucehere. So you spoke about having
values around having fun, makingmoney and having an impact. And
then I hear some of the thingsthat you talk about, what, what
do people look for in theworkplace? Lynn, they want to
feel seen, they want to feelheard. They want to feel like
(23:44):
they matter. They want to feelwhat they do matters. They want
to feel that they individuallymatter. Okay, then, when I hear
the things that you're talkingabout, the ability to ask for
forgiveness instead ofpermission, and the license to
go and try a few things that isempowerment and trust. They all
feel empowered and trusted to goand try a few things that's fun.
(24:07):
The opposite is not fun. To benot trusted to be micro managed
to all of these things are notfun. So fun money impact. The
impact is, I want to dosomething that matters. I want
to go home at the end of theday. And when my family asked
me, Did I have a good day today,I want to say with proud Yeah,
we did some really cool thingstoday, that some things that
(24:30):
mattered. And then the Speak Upculture. This is when you said
that you want people to raisetheir hand and hey, this might
be a crazy idea, but if peopledon't feel that they've got the
psychological safety to do that,they also don't feel seen and
heard. So if anyone listening tothe show right now, these are
(24:52):
their secret ingredients ofwhether someone has a good time
in the workplace or not. Do theyfeel seen? Do they feel heard?
Do they feel like they matter?
And that's coming through loudand clear in Lynn's values of
Yeah, we have a bit of funaround here, we make a bit of
money, and we make an impact.
But then it's showing up in theactions, not just the rhetoric,
(25:13):
the actions of showing people,yeah, it's okay to experiment.
Yeah, it's okay to stick up yourhand and speak up with a what
you think might be a crazy idea,but the funny thing with crazy
ideas, they usually turn intogood ideas after a while,
particularly if people startbouncing ideas off each other,
and they start co creating a newidea that's from that one crazy
(25:33):
idea. How does that sit withyou, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (25:35):
Yeah, totally agree. It's, you know, getting
them to raise their hand,getting to the point where they
feel free to raise their hand isreally important. Now, the other
thing I will say, Mick, I thinkas you grow, it becomes harder
and harder to maintain thatculture.
Mick Spiers (25:52):
Yeah, tell me more.
Lynn Daniel (25:54):
Well, I listened to a podcast about customer
experience. It's from a guynamed Rob Markey, he was
involved in just creating theNet Promoter system many years
ago, and so they've done someresearch on companies that have
better CX and one of the thingsthey found is over a third of
(26:16):
the Companies that perform wellon CX measures also had either
family or near family ownershipof the business, and he said the
founders and the families tendto have the kinds of cultures
that need that support this kindof environment where people feel
(26:40):
good about coming to work, nottrue in all cases. But when he
when they look at at the numberof privately held, closely held
companies in these top these arelarge companies. They're looking
at that, he said they arelargely either family held or
they're, they're the owner isvery much still involved. For
(27:02):
example, think about Chick fil Aand the Cathy family here in the
States. Very much involved, veryfocused on their customers. They
do it right now. Not a fast foodfan, but I know a lot of people
who love Chick fil A, and we'vehad a speaker from a Chick fil A
(27:25):
operation speak at one of ourconferences, and he told us
about what they do to betterengage employees. And I think as
I listened to him speak, I wasthinking some of this is coming
right straight out of the valuesystem of the Cathy family. I
suspect so anyway, I thinkhaving those values and living
them out, and having someone orsome group of people there who
(27:50):
hold those values is critical tothe long term evolution of a
company culture.
Mick Spiers (27:56):
Yeah, really good, Lynn, The three words that ring
really loudly for me when I hearspeak the word values, the word
family and the word ownership.
And if I work on those last twohere, the the ownership, it's a
big difference the word ownerversus renter. Imagine a house.
Lynn, if you're the owner of thehouse, you look after the damn
(28:17):
place. If you're at the renterof the house, you do the bare
minimum to make sure it's inokay shape,right?
Lynn Daniel (28:25):
And you don't get in trouble with the landlord.
Mick Spiers (28:27):
Yeah, exactly. So you don't get in trouble. That's
exactly the metaphor, right? Soif you're the owner of the
house, you you improve theplace. You don't just look after
it, you improve the place. Andthen the word family, the for
me, the common thread here, whatdo families do? They care for
each other. They care for eachother. So you don't have to
create an environment in yourorganization that, oh, we're
(28:50):
like a family. We don't have togo that far. But what they do is
they care for each other. And asTeddy Roosevelt puts it, no one
cares how much you know untilthey know how much you care. If
you show people that they carethat you care about them, guess
what, they'll care about you andthey'll care about the business.
How does that sit with you?
Lynn Daniel (29:08):
Completely agree.
Again, I want to come back todoing it. It sounds simple, but
doing it in practice is a lotmore difficult, because you do
run into, well, we've gotfinancial things we have to
concern ourselves with. We'vegot a variety of other things
that can cause you to lose focuson that. Again, going back to
(29:31):
this empathy, this caring, thiskind of environment, I think you
must have to be successfultoday, there are other things,
if you let them, that can get inyour way and get you sidelined.
Many, many, many things.
Mick Spiers (29:50):
I think it's in those tougher times that it's
even more important, all right.
And that's the test. That's thewater test. If your company is.
Showing that they care moreabout the quarter end results
than they do about the peopleyou're already in trouble. And
the word values, what valuesstill exist on that day where
it's not a good day, that's thetrue test of whether a company
(30:15):
is living by their values. It'snot, it's not in smooth waters.
Everyone can live by theirvalues, in their perceived
values, in nice times, it's onthe stormy days. Do we still
live by our values? That's atrue test of the culture at that
point.
Lynn Daniel (30:31):
Yeah, we've, over the years, we've had some
challenging times. And whenyou're the single leader in a
company, which I was for anumber of years, or the CEO
still am CEO, but did not haveDoug in his his role. It gets a
bit lonely. And I can rememberone time we were we were having
(30:54):
some just real big challenges.
And one of our managers, whom Iknow very well. She's been with
us for a long time. I came inone day, and then she came into
my office, shut door, she said,Lynn, let me give you some
feedback. You're walking aroundhere looking like you're about
ready to die. It's affecting allof us. So think about that when
(31:15):
you come in, it's all she said.
She got up and left, and I verymuch appreciate it, because I
never fully realized just how myappearance, how my the way I
held myself, if I was down, howthat affected people when I
walked into the office. But itdid, and it does to this day.
Mick Spiers (31:40):
Absolutely people have pick up on that stuff so
much. Lynn, the other thing yousaid there is very true, by the
way, leadership can get verylonely at the top, but sometimes
we don't let others help us. AndI'd say that when she's reaching
out to you, she's not justreaching out to you to talk
about, hey, we're having animpact on everyone that was out
(32:01):
of genuine care for you too,Lynn.
Lynn Daniel (32:03):
And that's a great example of instances I've seen
over the years where we've hadthings like that happen to sort
of bring us all back in linewhere we need to be.
Mick Spiers (32:14):
Now before we hit record. We also spoke about that
this all rises on and falls onleadership, and you and I, we
spoke about the famous quotethat people don't leave
companies. They leave bosses.
How do you then ingrain some ofthese things that you're talking
about in your leadership? Notnot in new Lynn Daniels
leadership, I'm talking about inyour leadership structure. What
(32:35):
are you doing to invest in yourleaders, to make sure that
they're living these values,that they're creating this
empowerment and trust, thatthey're creating this
environment where people can tryand experiment things without
fear of of being chastised forfailure, etc. How are you
penetrating that into yourleadership structure?
Lynn Daniel (32:56):
First thing, something I've talked about
earlier, is you got to hireright? You've got to hire people
that understand, or at least youthink, may understand your
culture. Secondly, you've got toprovide some coaching. And I'm
not talking about annualreviews. Yes, they're needed,
although I'm as I've gottenolder, I think annual reviews
(33:18):
are a little bit of a waste oftime, but that's my own opinion.
But what is needed, more andmore in companies is episodic
consulting with an employee.
Hey, let me, let me give yousome feedback on how you handle
that. You know, I've got amanager. He tends to like to
talk a little too much,sometimes in presentations, so
(33:39):
I've been giving that kind offeedback to him, and it's
getting better, much better,actually. So I think it's a
matter of coaching Mick a lot tocreate the kind of culture. And
it ultimately starts with me.
I've got to be the one who cando that coaching. I think,
(34:02):
secondly, there are ways to getsome training for people,
especially those that, hey,they've got the real good skill
set. Maybe they're a littlerough on some other things, if,
for example, not someone thatmay not be able to take
constructive feedback very well.
That kind of training can reallybe very helpful to people. Don't
(34:25):
need to overuse it, but it needsto be used where needed, because
I found it to be very, veryeffective. And I think the
employees appreciate it as well,because, hey, they realize
you're trying to help them bemore effective, more productive
employees.
Mick Spiers (34:46):
Yeah, really good, Lynn, two things there, episodic
coaching. You've given me a newterm, and I love it already, and
talk about that in a second, andthen developing your leaders. So
on the episode of coaching, younow got a fan. Base of two that
tells you that the annual reviewdoesn't work. And the problem is
is feedback doesn't age well,then it's unfair. It's
(35:07):
completely unfair on someone topull them side once a year and
say, Hey, here's a list of allthe things that you did right
this year. Here's a list of allthe things that you did wrong
this year. Episodic coaching.
And I'm going to say it's notjust the constructive stuff.
It's also the positivereinforcement in the moment at
the end of that presentation.
Here's all the things that Ithought went really well, but
(35:28):
here's where I also think thatyou could do better next time in
the moment, because it's freshin their mind, telling them that
12 months later, hey, do youremember that presentation that
we did 11 months 11 months ago.
That doesn't work. Linsa,episode of coaching, I love it,
and then develop your leaders.
And if you know listening to theshow, take these two away for
(35:51):
sure. Episode of coaching, andthen developing your leaders. If
you have a high turnover in yourbusiness right now, it'll be
because people are leaving theirboss, not because they're
leaving the company. And if youhaven't developed those
leadership skills in yourleaders, expect that you're
going to have a revolving doorin the organization. How does
(36:11):
that sit with you, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (36:13):
Completely agree, both are needed. You've got to
really work on developing yourpeople, and I think you one of
the tools, or frankly, is othertwo sort of tools I think about.
And one is that episodiccoaching. Because, again, to
your point, I do not thinkpeople remember three or four or
five, sometimes two weeks after,after an episode of something.
(36:37):
And then secondly, you know, asa small company, is sometimes
very hard to say, I'm gonnaspend eight or $9,000, $10,000
to send someone to a trainingcourse on, you know, helping
them develop some of their nontechnical skills. Sometimes I've
that's one of the worst mistakesI made early on, I think with me
(37:01):
is I probably should have donemore of that as a young manager
coming up, because once Iactually did it, I discovered it
was very helpful for me, and itwas, it's been very helpful for
some of the employees that wehave sent through training.
Mick Spiers (37:18):
Yeah, really good, Lynn. All right, I'm going to
bring us to a close now withsome of the things that I've
heard, and then we'll go to ourRapid Round list of the same
four questions we ask all of ourguests, Lynn, so we've spoken a
lot about, how do we stop therevolving door? How do we build
that low turnover that you'reexperiencing? Lynn, and it
(37:38):
started with the recruiting.
Started with understanding yourculture and then recruiting for
cultural fit more than anythingelse. So what is it about this
place that makes it special? Andis this incoming person going to
fit in, or are they going todestroy what makes this place
special, then going deeper onthe culture and the values, then
(37:58):
giving people what they want inthe workplace so they want to
feel seen, they want to feelheard, they want to feel like
they matter. And do your valuesmatch up to that? Do your values
stand the troubled times, thestormy waters, or do the values
go out the door in a panicbecause you're worried about
quarterly results instead ofcaring for your people,
(38:20):
listening to your people,listening to your people, just
like Lynn talks about listeningto customers, listen to your
people. They're going to havegreat ideas, but they're also,
if you give them the rightenvironment, they'll tell you
what they like about the placeand what they don't like, and
then act on those things. Andthen finally, it all rises and
falls on leadership. So ifyou're not giving this episode
(38:41):
of coaching and the developmentof your leaders, you're going to
have people leaving becausethey're leaving their boss.
They're not leaving the company.
Very powerful discussion. Lynn,I really appreciated it. Now
we're going to go to those fourquestions. So what's the one
thing that you know now? LynnDaniel, that you wish you knew
when you were 20?
Lynn Daniel (39:02):
Ooh, I think I wish I knew at 20 to be a little more
confident about my owncapabilities. No need to go into
all the background, but I thinkit's sort of hard to develop
confidence as a young personthat you need to go forward,
especially, I mean, I came froma I grew up on a farm, so my
(39:22):
parents didn't know, they didn'tknow anything about sort of the
world I was moving into greatparents, but still didn't know
much about well, you're going togo to college now, and you're
going to go to business school,and then who knows where you
might Go. So I think that I wishI'd I wish, in hindsight, that
(39:44):
I've had a lot more confidencein my own abilities when I was
in my 20s, although no regrets.
I mean, I just look back on it,that's what I wish I'd done. But
confidence only comes with hardknocks.
Mick Spiers (39:59):
That's it. You got to try come to come to that.
Lynn Daniel (40:02):
You got to try.
Mick Spiers (40:03):
That experience thing. Yeah.
Lynn Daniel (40:05):
You're going to screw things up, but you learn
if you, if you got your eyesopen and your mind open, you're
going to learn from the screwups.
Mick Spiers (40:14):
Yeah, brilliantly.
What's your favorite book?
Lynn Daniel (40:17):
Actually, I can mention too. One is winning on
purpose by Fred Reichel, whodeveloped the Net Promoter
Score. It's a really good bookthat starts to even delve deeper
into some of the economicbenefits of better CX and Fred
is a leader in this whole CXindustry, and someone I greatly
(40:41):
respect for what he's done andwhat he's doing, continuing to
do. And the second one is, Ican't remember the title of it,
but it was a book on NikolaTesla, fascinating character he
was.
Mick Spiers (40:54):
Yeah, we are very good. If you, if you remember
the title, send it to us andwe'll, put it in the show notes.
Uh, what's your favorite quote?
Lynn Daniel (41:03):
It's not over until it's over. Why did I say that?
You never can tell what's goingto happen. Sometimes you make
assumptions that this is goingto happen, and you get there
and, well, it didn't happenquite that way. So making
assumptions, it's really notover until it's over. That
applies to closing a deal, thatapplies to doing things that
(41:28):
sometimes people think areimpossible or hard to do. It's
not over till it's over.
Mick Spiers (41:36):
I like that. You put that in both frames. One is
the complacency frame of, ah,we've got this. It's a done
deal. And then the other one isthe this is a lost course. Is it
really or or are you not beingresourceful enough to work out
what you can do with with withwhere you are? Right? Really
good. Finally, Lynn, how dopeople find you? People are
going to be listening to this,going, Yeah, this is really
(41:57):
interesting, both on thecustomer experience side, but
then the employee experience andgetting that low turnover. How
do people find you?
Lynn Daniel (42:06):
Sure Our website is www.thedanielgroup.com. That's
thedanielgroup.com. I am Lynn,Daniel,
LynnDaniel@thedanielgroup.comlove to chat with anyone,
anytime, about most anything.
Mick Spiers (42:28):
All right, brilliant, Lynn. Thank you so
much for sharing your wisdom tothat your experience and giving
us lots of actionable tips onhow we can lower the turnover in
our team and create anenvironment where people love to
show up and do their very bestwork. Thank you so much.
Lynn Daniel (42:45):
Thank you. Mick, I appreciate it. Great job.
Mick Spiers (42:48):
What a rich and meaningful conversation with
Lynn Daniel, he reminded us thatloyalty isn't built through
policies. It's built throughpeople feeling seen, heard and
cared for that customerexperience starts with employee
experience, and that when youhire for values lead with
empathy and trust your people.
You don't just build a team, youbuild a legacy. So here's a
(43:10):
question for you today. Are youcreating the kind of culture
where people choose to staythrough good times and tough
times? And if not, what smallchange can you make today to
better listen, better supportand better lead? If you found
value in today's conversation,be sure to follow, share and
leave us a review. It helps moreleaders around the world find
(43:32):
and benefit from these insights.
In the next episode, I'll besharing my own reflections on
what I learnt from Lynn and howI apply it in my leadership.
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
(43:55):
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject YouTube channel, where
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
(44:17):
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do take
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.
If your team were free to leave tomorrow, would
they choose to stay? What makessomeone not just work for you,
but stay with you year afteryear? What if the key to
customer experience lies in howwe treat our own people? In
today's episode, I'm joined byLynn Daniel, the founder and CEO
(00:22):
of the Daniel group. What makesLynn's story truly compelling is
that in an industry notoriousfor high turnover, his team has
stuck with him for decades. Soget ready to take notes and be
inspired as we learn the realsecret sauce behind Lynn's low
turnover.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I'm
(00:44):
greatly honored today to bejoined by Lynn Daniel. Lynn is
the CEO of the Daniel group, anorganization that helps other
companies to measure, manage andimprove customer experience. But
here's the thing, in an industrythat typically has a very high
turnover, Lin's organization hasa very low turnover. So that's
(01:09):
what we're going to exploretoday. What does it take to
create a resilient organizationwith a low turnover, and what is
the impact of doing so? Sowithout any further ado, I want
to know the secret sauce thatLynn has got here, and I'm sure
what you do as well. Lynn, I'dlove to hear from you a little
bit of your background, and thenwhat inspired you in this area
(01:32):
around customer experience andhow this resilient organization
with a low turnover impacts thatbusiness.
Lynn Daniel (01:43):
Thanks a lot. I really looking forward to our
discussion today. A little bitof history about us. I started
the firm in 89 we were doingmarket research, strategic
planning work, mostly in late1990s early 2000s we started
(02:03):
working with some clients, acouple of Caterpillar dealers,
and I noticed several things.
One, was not as much awarenessas you might expect of customers
that were they were losing outthe back door, of people walking
away. So we started made a pitchto one of our clients and said,
hey, we'd like to offer you achance to get better feedback
(02:25):
from the customers on an ongoingbasis. So we did they they
started with us Blanchardmachinery, which is a
caterpillar dealer in SouthCarolina, and I'm pleased to say
they're still a client for us.
Enjoy working with them greatly,but we started with them, and
(02:48):
things basically sort of tookoff on their own, and we grew
through just doing a great joband in letting people talk about
what we did for them. As we gotstarted, we had to have people
to make phone calls. Because,remember, this was early 2000s
(03:08):
late 1990s the use of digitalfeedback was not quite as large
as it is now. So we neededinterviewers. We needed people
make phone calls with thesecustomers, and so that's when I
started hiring, creating a callcenter. Well, it was a little
different call center, becauseeven back then, everything was
(03:31):
remote, so people work fromtheir homes. Necessity, they
say, is the mother of invention.
Well, it was a necessity for me,because I, frankly, didn't have
the money to rent space to put alot of people in? Well, it
turned out that that was a bitof a hidden strength for us,
because we found out thatpeople, one liked to work in
this remote environment, andtwo, with technologies as they
(03:52):
evolved, we were able to monitorwhat they were doing, making
sure it met our qualitystandards and making sure about
our productivity standards. Andalong the way, we, I think,
develop this culture aroundpaying attention, listening to
our researchers. Are the peoplewho are doing the interviews and
(04:14):
trying to help them understandone how to do a better job. And
then also, they helped us to inmany times, in being responsive
to our clients. If there was asudden problem, sudden issue
that a customer mentioned, wethey made sure that got back to
our clients. So I think for us,it really took a lot of of work
(04:36):
hiring the right people. I can'temphasize that enough people
have to mesh in well into yourculture. You can't have in our
case, we can't have those thatwant to be lone rangers and want
to go out and do their ownthing. We've got to work as a
team. And I think that's one ofthe things that's been the
(04:58):
secret. Of our success over theyears and keeping a very loyal
workforce where the turnover is,while we still have turnover,
you're going to have turnover inthis business. It's much lower
than any benchmarks we look atfor turnover in this situation.
Mick Spiers (05:18):
So first of all, Lynn, I want to say
congratulations on your success.
If you've got customers that arestill with you 30 years later,
that speaks volumes. I also lovethe resourcefulness of you
finding essentially what is nowthe work from home or hybrid
experience that we're allexperiencing now. You are. You
were a pioneer of that, and youwere 30 years ahead of the rest
(05:39):
of us there as well. The keymessage I heard there, Lynn, is
listening. So in this customerexperience world, you've picked
up that. Well, if you've got anorganization that's losing
customers, are they listening tothe customers? So are they
listening? Why aren't thecustomers sticking with us? What
is that feedback? And what arewe going to do with that
(06:01):
feedback? But then you'reimmediately turning that to your
team and going okay with ourteam if we want our team to
stick around, are we listeningto our team? So listening to
customers to make sure you knowwhat success looks like for them
and why they would leave versuswhy they would stay. And to me,
that's the same with our people.
(06:24):
If we're not listening to ourpeople, they're going to find
the exit door. How does that sitwith you, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (06:29):
That's absolutely true. We have several managers,
the front line, managers, forthis team of 80 some odd people,
and they are just excellent atworking with the team, working
with the individuals, givingthem feedback, training them,
coaching them honestly. Mick,they have a lot more patience
(06:50):
than I would have, but thatjust, that's just me, that's
they. That's why I they're intheir jobs, and I'm in mine,
because I don't think I would dovery well sometimes in their
job, but, but it's thatlistening is it's also goes
beyond listening to express someconcern. For example, we've got
a long time employee now who isbattling cancer, whenever we
(07:15):
have one of our employees,especially a long time, or who's
facing a serious issue likethis, we don't just ignore them.
We'll do things like providesome meals for the families if
they're not able to do anythingat that point, we'll do other
(07:35):
things, because sometimes theone I mentioned is facing the
cancer problem right now, thechallenge with cancer is she's
one of these active, gregarious,really, really effective
interviewers. She could talk tomost anyone, anywhere, and get
the answers that you're we'relooking for. But this bout with
(08:00):
the illness and the treatmentshave really made it very
difficult. So sometimes, some ofour people, I know, I've heard
through the grapevine, they'lljust give her a call and say,
Tina, how are you doing?
Anything we can do for you?
How's it going? Now, she's stillworking part time, but that's an
example of concern, and I thinkin the day's world, just showing
(08:23):
that empathy, showing thatconcern, and I should say,
meaningful concern, it makes alot of difference with your
employees.
Mick Spiers (08:32):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry to hear
that your staff member is goingthrough that, and now our
thoughts and prayers are withthem at this moment, what I'm
hearing there is is two things.
It's empathy and loyalty. Sowhen we're loyal to our staff,
when they're going through atough time, it builds loyalty in
return. They'll always rememberthat. I'm going to double down
(08:52):
and say, not only will thatperson remember it, Lynn,
everyone else sees it. And hegoes, Oh, wow. The company looks
after our people. Well, I'mgoing to stick around here,
because if I fall on hard timesone day, I know that Lynn's not
going to, you know, boot me outthe door. He's, he's going to be
there for me when I need it.
Lynn Daniel (09:13):
And I think another thing, Mick is, I will have to
say I'm not really a strict oneabout did you show up at eight
o'clock, and did you leave atfive? I said to people early on.
I said, if I have to manage yourtime, you don't need to be
working here. You're responsiblefor managing your time and
getting the work done. Sosometimes this means that, you
(09:35):
know, some people may take offearly, but I can tell you if
we're at the end of the monthand we've got a crunch that we
maybe for whatever reason. Youknow, there could have been
storms in part of the US so wewere not able to complete our
required quota. They're going tobe on the phone, they're going
to be working, they're going tobe making sure to the degree
possible that our clients getwhat they pay for. And so that's
(10:01):
the kind of thing that I seehappening. If that empathy, that
concern and that loyalty isthere, that's what happens. What
I've seen happen with employees.
Mick Spiers (10:14):
No one likes a clock watcher. Lena, I can tell
you what happens in those clockwatching businesses where
they're worried about whethersomeone's clocked on it eight
and clocked off at four ispeople just pretend anyway, they
just sit there, and in the lasthour of the day they kind of
moving their mouse around, orthey're doing something that
looks busy, but they're they'renot fully engaged anyway. But if
(10:36):
you have this to and fro, this,this give and take, I tell you
what, they give a lot back when,when it matters most, right? So,
yeah, really, really good. Lynn,all right. So the other thing
that you picked up on before wasyou making the right hiring
decisions, right? So, and theword I heard from you loud and
clear was culture. Tell us abouthiring for culture instead of,
(11:00):
let's say maybe skills andexperience. How does it fit with
you?
Lynn Daniel (11:05):
Let me share a story with you about this
happened about almost 10 yearsago. Now, I knew that I needed
to have someone to back me up. Iwould be retiring at some point,
and so we need to have someoneto run the company, I was very
hesitant to go the traditionalHeadhunter route, primarily
(11:25):
because I think you're I'm notknocking Headhunters, but too
often it's luck of the draw interms of the fit that you have
between the person you hire inyour organization. So I did it a
little differently this time, Iactually hired a psychologist
from Davidson College, and Isaid, John, I need some help. I
(11:48):
want you to go. I want you totalk to the key members of our
organization, and I want you tounderstand our culture, and I
want you to find out what kindsof characteristics does a person
need to have to be successful inour company? So he did that. And
(12:08):
the approach we took, or I took,and then he took, as well, was
we will circulate the jobdescription, which came out of
this analysis that he did withnetworks. He had networks I had.
Well, it so turned out that hehad a student from from years
ago that he'd stayed in touchwith. The fellow was a senior
(12:31):
executive Bank of America, andhe became one of the four
finalists. Now, Doug, our CEO,brings a lot of really good
technical skills, but he'd neverworked in our kind of business.
He was a banker. He was inproduct development and various
other roles at Bank of America,so he never worked in our
(12:55):
business. But what wascompelling to me about Doug is
he fit so well with the culturethat we have? The feedback I got
from the employees, because heinterviewed with everybody on
our management team before wesigned the deal with him, what I
found was they, they reallythought he would be a good match
(13:18):
for our culture, and it it'sbeen a fantastic match. You
know, I consider Doug just soeffective with our team members.
He brings some theme, someskills to the to the table that
I do not have. So I think wecomplement each other very well.
He's just been a fantasticleader for the company. But I
(13:41):
think it took that time, thateffort, to say, what are the
characteristics that a goodleader needs to have in our
company like ours.
Mick Spiers (13:52):
There's a few really key things I'm hearing
there. Lynn and you finishedwith one key one, which is time,
taking the time to find theperson with the right cultural
fit. Sometimes we can get into abit of a panic, and we go, oh,
we must fill this role. Andmaybe we go a bit too fast. If
we pick the wrong person, it'sgoing to have a detriment to our
(14:12):
team. It's not just that persondidn't work out, and that's
expensive. If they turn out tobe a mismatch to the culture. It
can be quite toxic. And itdoesn't just impact that one
mishire, it impacts everyonearound them. But if we take the
time and take an extra month,take an extra two months to find
the right person, you're notgoing to do damage. How does
(14:35):
that sit with you?
Lynn Daniel (14:36):
That is absolutely true. I've had, we had another
situation. It was not the samelevel of higher as Doug, but it
was a senior manager in thecompany, and I think we've paid
a little too much attention toskill set and not enough
attention to culture. And hedidn't, I think he lasted about
(14:58):
six months. But. And the problemwas there were two things. One,
he, it turned out the skill setswe thought he had, he didn't
have them to the degree that hehad the state he had them. So
that was one thing. But thesecond thing is, when you get a
person in that's not a fit,other people notice it, and they
(15:20):
start asking questions. Now Iwas probably, I probably would
have been the last person tohave been asked questions about
it, but I know there werediscussions around the office
about this particular person andthe degree to which, yeah, could
he fit? And could he fit andwork out well in our company?
(15:40):
And he couldn't, so it was a hitto us for time, for money to
hire him, and then we had to goin another direction when we
actually need to fill which alsoincurred more cost. So I think
taking Mick, I can honestly say,taking the time just really
(16:01):
trying to understand, yes, yougotta understand skill sets. And
I think there, we probablydidn't get enough information
about skill sets in that hire.
But also just tell me what turnsyou on, what what excites you,
what brings you joy, if, when inthe interview process, because
it's, it's these so called softand tangible things that really
(16:22):
do shape that person and shapethe way they're going to fit
into your culture.
Mick Spiers (16:32):
Yeah, really good, lean. And there's going to be
people that are listening tothis audience that are trying to
process that. And I want to playsomething to you and see where
we go with this, because we'lltalk about the skill sets versus
culture here for a moment. So insome jobs, the skills can be
taught, right? So I'm talkingentry level jobs where you know
what, anyone can learn this. Aslong as they've got the right
(16:54):
mindset, they've got the rightaptitude, the right attitude,
they can learn how to do this,then there's going to be people
that are listening to this,Lynn, and they're going to be
going, Yeah, that's okay forentry level jobs, but if I've
got a job where there is somekind of qualification needed, it
might be an engineering jobwhere the person needs an
engineering degree. Now what I'mgoing to say here, that I'm
(17:16):
going to test with you, is, whenyou get in that situation, the
qualifications are the tablestakes, but it's not what gets
you the job. So if I'm going torecruit for an engineer that
that must be have an engineeringdegree, the engineering degree
is just going to be the tick inthe box, and then I'm going to
start the interview, and in theinterview I'm going to look for
(17:38):
the attitude, I'm going to lookfor the culture. What makes them
tick. I love the questions thatyou're asking. How does that sit
with you?
Lynn Daniel (17:47):
That's exactly how we look at it. Mick, we have,
really, over the last five orsix years, started to change
even more of what we do in theinterview process. So we
continue to pay we will alwayspay close attention to this
issue of how they look at theworld beyond what their skill
(18:10):
set is. Do they have respect forpeople? I think that's a
fundamental in the world we livein now. You know, we we have to
have respect for people. If not,we just can't. We just can't run
the organization.
Mick Spiers (18:24):
Yeah, spot on. So respect is a great one. And
before, one of the other thingsthat I picked up that you were
doing when you did this, insteadof just going to call it a
throwaway line, oh, we want torecruit someone that will fit
into our culture. Well, what youdid differently is you had your
recruiter understand the culturebefore they went looking for a
(18:46):
culture fit. So what is it aboutthis place and respect might be
the top of the list for yourcompany? For another company, it
might be something elsealtogether. But if you don't
know what those things are, it'shard to go and find out, find
the person that's going to fitin beautifully. So take the time
to understand what your peopleexperience today. What is it
(19:07):
about the culture that with acompany like yours, Lynn, with a
low turnover, what is it thatthey love about the plays? Then
let's make sure that we recruitsomeone that's not going to come
in and be a square peg in around hole.
Lynn Daniel (19:21):
Yes, absolutely true. And I think I wish more
companies would pay moreattention to this question of
culture, this question ofcultural fit. Some are better at
it than others, but I stillthink that's an area of
improvement that's needed formany, perhaps most companies,
(19:43):
particularly, I was looking atsome latest Gallup numbers about
engaged employees in the US,we're now down to about a third
of the employees are trulyengaged in their jobs, so that,
right there is telling. Need tome, pay more attention to the
culture. What kind of cultureyou want to have? What kind of
(20:06):
culture do you have? And thisperson coming in fit with that
culture?
Mick Spiers (20:12):
Yeah, well said.
And those Gallup results, like,I gotta say, they're not getting
any better at the moment, and weneed to do something different
if we want a different result.
All right, so we've gone througha bit of a process here where
we're making sure we're bringingthe right people in the door.
But it can't finish there.
Lindy, you've got anorganization with a very low
turnover, and I've got to saythat turnover is very expensive.
(20:35):
I don't know if anyone listeningto the show has looked into how
much it costs to onboard new newstaff members. It's very
expensive when you when you havesomeone leave the business and
you have to replace them, it's avery expensive exercise to go
through, what is your secretsauce? How have you got your
your turnover so low? I'm surethe audience will want to know.
Lynn Daniel (21:00):
I think we have an informal understanding around
our company. Becomes very formalwhen someone comes in, and
generally I will be other thansome of the frontline
interviewers. I will intervieweverybody coming in for a new
job. And one of the things thatwhen we hire them, I have a chat
(21:21):
with them, and said, Okay, thisis who we are. You. You've
learned about us, you've decidedyou want to join us, but let me
tell you a little bit more aboutus and the really two things I
say to them. First, we're hereon this earth to and in our in
this business. To one, have somefun. Two, make some money. And
(21:45):
three, make a difference, apositive difference for our
clients, not necessarily in thatorder, but I think we generally
live by that. So if we've got tospend extra time on a phone call
to get some clear answers for aclient. We do that. You know,
people don't get in troublebecause they spent, you know,
(22:06):
more than X number of minutes ona phone call. That's just the
way we are. The second thing Isay to them, which I think also
describes a lot about ourculture, is I've always said to
each new employee coming in, Iam far more interested in having
you beg forgiveness than askpermission. Why? I think that
(22:30):
tells, that communicates topeople that you know you you've
got some responsibility that youneed to fulfill yourself. Will
you make a mistake? Yep, sure.
Will I've made many over thecourse of my career. But you
know, you don't make a mistakeunless you try. And we want to
have an organization in whichpeople feel free to try and at
(22:50):
least explore things that peoplemay not believe are valid,
perhaps may not believe they'reuseful. Perhaps, I mean, we've
had some things that have comeup that from suggestions or
employees that have really beenvery beneficial, but I think the
only way that it was to becomebeneficial is because they felt
(23:14):
comfortable raising what, insome people's minds might have
been a little bit of a crazyidea.
Mick Spiers (23:23):
Really good, Lynn, I'm going to play back to you
what I'm hearing and what Ithink is going to be a large
element of your secret saucehere. So you spoke about having
values around having fun, makingmoney and having an impact. And
then I hear some of the thingsthat you talk about, what, what
do people look for in theworkplace? Lynn, they want to
feel seen, they want to feelheard. They want to feel like
(23:44):
they matter. They want to feelwhat they do matters. They want
to feel that they individuallymatter. Okay, then, when I hear
the things that you're talkingabout, the ability to ask for
forgiveness instead ofpermission, and the license to
go and try a few things that isempowerment and trust. They all
feel empowered and trusted to goand try a few things that's fun.
(24:07):
The opposite is not fun. To benot trusted to be micro managed
to all of these things are notfun. So fun money impact. The
impact is, I want to dosomething that matters. I want
to go home at the end of theday. And when my family asked
me, Did I have a good day today,I want to say with proud Yeah,
we did some really cool thingstoday, that some things that
(24:30):
mattered. And then the Speak Upculture. This is when you said
that you want people to raisetheir hand and hey, this might
be a crazy idea, but if peopledon't feel that they've got the
psychological safety to do that,they also don't feel seen and
heard. So if anyone listening tothe show right now, these are
(24:52):
their secret ingredients ofwhether someone has a good time
in the workplace or not. Do theyfeel seen? Do they feel heard?
Do they feel like they matter?
And that's coming through loudand clear in Lynn's values of
Yeah, we have a bit of funaround here, we make a bit of
money, and we make an impact.
But then it's showing up in theactions, not just the rhetoric,
(25:13):
the actions of showing people,yeah, it's okay to experiment.
Yeah, it's okay to stick up yourhand and speak up with a what
you think might be a crazy idea,but the funny thing with crazy
ideas, they usually turn intogood ideas after a while,
particularly if people startbouncing ideas off each other,
and they start co creating a newidea that's from that one crazy
(25:33):
idea. How does that sit withyou, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (25:35):
Yeah, totally agree. It's, you know, getting
them to raise their hand,getting to the point where they
feel free to raise their hand isreally important. Now, the other
thing I will say, Mick, I thinkas you grow, it becomes harder
and harder to maintain thatculture.
Mick Spiers (25:52):
Yeah, tell me more.
Lynn Daniel (25:54):
Well, I listened to a podcast about customer
experience. It's from a guynamed Rob Markey, he was
involved in just creating theNet Promoter system many years
ago, and so they've done someresearch on companies that have
better CX and one of the thingsthey found is over a third of
(26:16):
the Companies that perform wellon CX measures also had either
family or near family ownershipof the business, and he said the
founders and the families tendto have the kinds of cultures
that need that support this kindof environment where people feel
(26:40):
good about coming to work, nottrue in all cases. But when he
when they look at at the numberof privately held, closely held
companies in these top these arelarge companies. They're looking
at that, he said they arelargely either family held or
they're, they're the owner isvery much still involved. For
(27:02):
example, think about Chick fil Aand the Cathy family here in the
States. Very much involved, veryfocused on their customers. They
do it right now. Not a fast foodfan, but I know a lot of people
who love Chick fil A, and we'vehad a speaker from a Chick fil A
(27:25):
operation speak at one of ourconferences, and he told us
about what they do to betterengage employees. And I think as
I listened to him speak, I wasthinking some of this is coming
right straight out of the valuesystem of the Cathy family. I
suspect so anyway, I thinkhaving those values and living
them out, and having someone orsome group of people there who
(27:50):
hold those values is critical tothe long term evolution of a
company culture.
Mick Spiers (27:56):
Yeah, really good, Lynn, The three words that ring
really loudly for me when I hearspeak the word values, the word
family and the word ownership.
And if I work on those last twohere, the the ownership, it's a
big difference the word ownerversus renter. Imagine a house.
Lynn, if you're the owner of thehouse, you look after the damn
(28:17):
place. If you're at the renterof the house, you do the bare
minimum to make sure it's inokay shape,right?
Lynn Daniel (28:25):
And you don't get in trouble with the landlord.
Mick Spiers (28:27):
Yeah, exactly. So you don't get in trouble. That's
exactly the metaphor, right? Soif you're the owner of the
house, you you improve theplace. You don't just look after
it, you improve the place. Andthen the word family, the for
me, the common thread here, whatdo families do? They care for
each other. They care for eachother. So you don't have to
create an environment in yourorganization that, oh, we're
(28:50):
like a family. We don't have togo that far. But what they do is
they care for each other. And asTeddy Roosevelt puts it, no one
cares how much you know untilthey know how much you care. If
you show people that they carethat you care about them, guess
what, they'll care about you andthey'll care about the business.
How does that sit with you?
Lynn Daniel (29:08):
Completely agree.
Again, I want to come back todoing it. It sounds simple, but
doing it in practice is a lotmore difficult, because you do
run into, well, we've gotfinancial things we have to
concern ourselves with. We'vegot a variety of other things
that can cause you to lose focuson that. Again, going back to
(29:31):
this empathy, this caring, thiskind of environment, I think you
must have to be successfultoday, there are other things,
if you let them, that can get inyour way and get you sidelined.
Many, many, many things.
Mick Spiers (29:50):
I think it's in those tougher times that it's
even more important, all right.
And that's the test. That's thewater test. If your company is.
Showing that they care moreabout the quarter end results
than they do about the peopleyou're already in trouble. And
the word values, what valuesstill exist on that day where
it's not a good day, that's thetrue test of whether a company
(30:15):
is living by their values. It'snot, it's not in smooth waters.
Everyone can live by theirvalues, in their perceived
values, in nice times, it's onthe stormy days. Do we still
live by our values? That's atrue test of the culture at that
point.
Lynn Daniel (30:31):
Yeah, we've, over the years, we've had some
challenging times. And whenyou're the single leader in a
company, which I was for anumber of years, or the CEO
still am CEO, but did not haveDoug in his his role. It gets a
bit lonely. And I can rememberone time we were we were having
(30:54):
some just real big challenges.
And one of our managers, whom Iknow very well. She's been with
us for a long time. I came inone day, and then she came into
my office, shut door, she said,Lynn, let me give you some
feedback. You're walking aroundhere looking like you're about
ready to die. It's affecting allof us. So think about that when
(31:15):
you come in, it's all she said.
She got up and left, and I verymuch appreciate it, because I
never fully realized just how myappearance, how my the way I
held myself, if I was down, howthat affected people when I
walked into the office. But itdid, and it does to this day.
Mick Spiers (31:40):
Absolutely people have pick up on that stuff so
much. Lynn, the other thing yousaid there is very true, by the
way, leadership can get verylonely at the top, but sometimes
we don't let others help us. AndI'd say that when she's reaching
out to you, she's not justreaching out to you to talk
about, hey, we're having animpact on everyone that was out
(32:01):
of genuine care for you too,Lynn.
Lynn Daniel (32:03):
And that's a great example of instances I've seen
over the years where we've hadthings like that happen to sort
of bring us all back in linewhere we need to be.
Mick Spiers (32:14):
Now before we hit record. We also spoke about that
this all rises on and falls onleadership, and you and I, we
spoke about the famous quotethat people don't leave
companies. They leave bosses.
How do you then ingrain some ofthese things that you're talking
about in your leadership? Notnot in new Lynn Daniels
leadership, I'm talking about inyour leadership structure. What
(32:35):
are you doing to invest in yourleaders, to make sure that
they're living these values,that they're creating this
empowerment and trust, thatthey're creating this
environment where people can tryand experiment things without
fear of of being chastised forfailure, etc. How are you
penetrating that into yourleadership structure?
Lynn Daniel (32:56):
First thing, something I've talked about
earlier, is you got to hireright? You've got to hire people
that understand, or at least youthink, may understand your
culture. Secondly, you've got toprovide some coaching. And I'm
not talking about annualreviews. Yes, they're needed,
although I'm as I've gottenolder, I think annual reviews
(33:18):
are a little bit of a waste oftime, but that's my own opinion.
But what is needed, more andmore in companies is episodic
consulting with an employee.
Hey, let me, let me give yousome feedback on how you handle
that. You know, I've got amanager. He tends to like to
talk a little too much,sometimes in presentations, so
(33:39):
I've been giving that kind offeedback to him, and it's
getting better, much better,actually. So I think it's a
matter of coaching Mick a lot tocreate the kind of culture. And
it ultimately starts with me.
I've got to be the one who cando that coaching. I think,
(34:02):
secondly, there are ways to getsome training for people,
especially those that, hey,they've got the real good skill
set. Maybe they're a littlerough on some other things, if,
for example, not someone thatmay not be able to take
constructive feedback very well.
That kind of training can reallybe very helpful to people. Don't
(34:25):
need to overuse it, but it needsto be used where needed, because
I found it to be very, veryeffective. And I think the
employees appreciate it as well,because, hey, they realize
you're trying to help them bemore effective, more productive
employees.
Mick Spiers (34:46):
Yeah, really good, Lynn, two things there, episodic
coaching. You've given me a newterm, and I love it already, and
talk about that in a second, andthen developing your leaders. So
on the episode of coaching, younow got a fan. Base of two that
tells you that the annual reviewdoesn't work. And the problem is
is feedback doesn't age well,then it's unfair. It's
(35:07):
completely unfair on someone topull them side once a year and
say, Hey, here's a list of allthe things that you did right
this year. Here's a list of allthe things that you did wrong
this year. Episodic coaching.
And I'm going to say it's notjust the constructive stuff.
It's also the positivereinforcement in the moment at
the end of that presentation.
Here's all the things that Ithought went really well, but
(35:28):
here's where I also think thatyou could do better next time in
the moment, because it's freshin their mind, telling them that
12 months later, hey, do youremember that presentation that
we did 11 months 11 months ago.
That doesn't work. Linsa,episode of coaching, I love it,
and then develop your leaders.
And if you know listening to theshow, take these two away for
(35:51):
sure. Episode of coaching, andthen developing your leaders. If
you have a high turnover in yourbusiness right now, it'll be
because people are leaving theirboss, not because they're
leaving the company. And if youhaven't developed those
leadership skills in yourleaders, expect that you're
going to have a revolving doorin the organization. How does
(36:11):
that sit with you, Lynn?
Lynn Daniel (36:13):
Completely agree, both are needed. You've got to
really work on developing yourpeople, and I think you one of
the tools, or frankly, is othertwo sort of tools I think about.
And one is that episodiccoaching. Because, again, to
your point, I do not thinkpeople remember three or four or
five, sometimes two weeks after,after an episode of something.
(36:37):
And then secondly, you know, asa small company, is sometimes
very hard to say, I'm gonnaspend eight or $9,000, $10,000
to send someone to a trainingcourse on, you know, helping
them develop some of their nontechnical skills. Sometimes I've
that's one of the worst mistakesI made early on, I think with me
(37:01):
is I probably should have donemore of that as a young manager
coming up, because once Iactually did it, I discovered it
was very helpful for me, and itwas, it's been very helpful for
some of the employees that wehave sent through training.
Mick Spiers (37:18):
Yeah, really good, Lynn. All right, I'm going to
bring us to a close now withsome of the things that I've
heard, and then we'll go to ourRapid Round list of the same
four questions we ask all of ourguests, Lynn, so we've spoken a
lot about, how do we stop therevolving door? How do we build
that low turnover that you'reexperiencing? Lynn, and it
(37:38):
started with the recruiting.
Started with understanding yourculture and then recruiting for
cultural fit more than anythingelse. So what is it about this
place that makes it special? Andis this incoming person going to
fit in, or are they going todestroy what makes this place
special, then going deeper onthe culture and the values, then
(37:58):
giving people what they want inthe workplace so they want to
feel seen, they want to feelheard, they want to feel like
they matter. And do your valuesmatch up to that? Do your values
stand the troubled times, thestormy waters, or do the values
go out the door in a panicbecause you're worried about
quarterly results instead ofcaring for your people,
(38:20):
listening to your people,listening to your people, just
like Lynn talks about listeningto customers, listen to your
people. They're going to havegreat ideas, but they're also,
if you give them the rightenvironment, they'll tell you
what they like about the placeand what they don't like, and
then act on those things. Andthen finally, it all rises and
falls on leadership. So ifyou're not giving this episode
(38:41):
of coaching and the developmentof your leaders, you're going to
have people leaving becausethey're leaving their boss.
They're not leaving the company.
Very powerful discussion. Lynn,I really appreciated it. Now
we're going to go to those fourquestions. So what's the one
thing that you know now? LynnDaniel, that you wish you knew
when you were 20?
Lynn Daniel (39:02):
Ooh, I think I wish I knew at 20 to be a little more
confident about my owncapabilities. No need to go into
all the background, but I thinkit's sort of hard to develop
confidence as a young personthat you need to go forward,
especially, I mean, I came froma I grew up on a farm, so my
(39:22):
parents didn't know, they didn'tknow anything about sort of the
world I was moving into greatparents, but still didn't know
much about well, you're going togo to college now, and you're
going to go to business school,and then who knows where you
might Go. So I think that I wishI'd I wish, in hindsight, that
(39:44):
I've had a lot more confidencein my own abilities when I was
in my 20s, although no regrets.
I mean, I just look back on it,that's what I wish I'd done. But
confidence only comes with hardknocks.
Mick Spiers (39:59):
That's it. You got to try come to come to that.
Lynn Daniel (40:02):
You got to try.
Mick Spiers (40:03):
That experience thing. Yeah.
Lynn Daniel (40:05):
You're going to screw things up, but you learn
if you, if you got your eyesopen and your mind open, you're
going to learn from the screwups.
Mick Spiers (40:14):
Yeah, brilliantly.
What's your favorite book?
Lynn Daniel (40:17):
Actually, I can mention too. One is winning on
purpose by Fred Reichel, whodeveloped the Net Promoter
Score. It's a really good bookthat starts to even delve deeper
into some of the economicbenefits of better CX and Fred
is a leader in this whole CXindustry, and someone I greatly
(40:41):
respect for what he's done andwhat he's doing, continuing to
do. And the second one is, Ican't remember the title of it,
but it was a book on NikolaTesla, fascinating character he
was.
Mick Spiers (40:54):
Yeah, we are very good. If you, if you remember
the title, send it to us andwe'll, put it in the show notes.
Uh, what's your favorite quote?
Lynn Daniel (41:03):
It's not over until it's over. Why did I say that?
You never can tell what's goingto happen. Sometimes you make
assumptions that this is goingto happen, and you get there
and, well, it didn't happenquite that way. So making
assumptions, it's really notover until it's over. That
applies to closing a deal, thatapplies to doing things that
(41:28):
sometimes people think areimpossible or hard to do. It's
not over till it's over.
Mick Spiers (41:36):
I like that. You put that in both frames. One is
the complacency frame of, ah,we've got this. It's a done
deal. And then the other one isthe this is a lost course. Is it
really or or are you not beingresourceful enough to work out
what you can do with with withwhere you are? Right? Really
good. Finally, Lynn, how dopeople find you? People are
going to be listening to this,going, Yeah, this is really
(41:57):
interesting, both on thecustomer experience side, but
then the employee experience andgetting that low turnover. How
do people find you?
Lynn Daniel (42:06):
Sure Our website is www.thedanielgroup.com. That's
thedanielgroup.com. I am Lynn,Daniel,
LynnDaniel@thedanielgroup.comlove to chat with anyone,
anytime, about most anything.
Mick Spiers (42:28):
All right, brilliant, Lynn. Thank you so
much for sharing your wisdom tothat your experience and giving
us lots of actionable tips onhow we can lower the turnover in
our team and create anenvironment where people love to
show up and do their very bestwork. Thank you so much.
Lynn Daniel (42:45):
Thank you. Mick, I appreciate it. Great job.
Mick Spiers (42:48):
What a rich and meaningful conversation with
Lynn Daniel, he reminded us thatloyalty isn't built through
policies. It's built throughpeople feeling seen, heard and
cared for that customerexperience starts with employee
experience, and that when youhire for values lead with
empathy and trust your people.
You don't just build a team, youbuild a legacy. So here's a
(43:10):
question for you today. Are youcreating the kind of culture
where people choose to staythrough good times and tough
times? And if not, what smallchange can you make today to
better listen, better supportand better lead? If you found
value in today's conversation,be sure to follow, share and
leave us a review. It helps moreleaders around the world find
(43:32):
and benefit from these insights.
In the next episode, I'll besharing my own reflections on
what I learnt from Lynn and howI apply it in my leadership.
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
(43:55):
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject YouTube channel, where
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
(44:17):
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do take
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.
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Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com