May 19, 2025 • 52 mins
What if the workplace friction you face daily isn’t just “how things are” but something you can change? In this eye-opening conversation, Margaret Graziano—bestselling author of Ignite Culture—shares how most dysfunction at work is created, not inevitable. Drawing from decades of experience and research in neuroscience and organizational development, Margie empowers us to stop pointing fingers and start looking within.
Science shows that 75% of employees experience high stress, much of it due to interpersonal conflict. When triggered, our brain’s executive function shuts down, leading to poor decisions. Margie introduces a powerful formula—Performance = Potential - Interference—revealing that removing emotional and relational blockers is just as important as building skills or talent.
This episode delivers practical tools like the SCULPT method to shift from reaction to response and strategies for team alignment. Whether you're a leader or team member, Margie’s insights offer a roadmap to building healthy, high-performing cultures—starting with one powerful question: What role am I playing in the problems I see?
🌐 Connect with Margaret:
• Website: https://www.keenalignment.com/ & https://www.margaretgraziano.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaretgraziano/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magigrazi/
• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@magigrazi/
📚 You can purchase 's book on Amazon:
• Ignite Culture: https://www.amazon.com/dp/164704619X/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick Spiers (00:00):
If culture is just the way we do things around
(00:04):
here, what happens when that wayno longer serves us, or worse,
burns us out? In today'sepisode, I'm joined by Margie
Graziano, Best Selling Author ofIgnite culture, a passionate
advocate for consciousleadership and a seasoned expert
who has helped place over 10,000professionals in organizations
(00:27):
around the world, we dive deepinto what it really takes to
build a high performance culturefrom the inside out, you'll hear
how intentional leadership,values, aligned hiring and
emotionally intelligentcommunication can transform not
only your team, but your entireorganization. Margie shares
(00:47):
powerful insights fromneuroscience, behavioral
analytics and real worldconsulting that will help you
spark the change your cultureneeds. So grab a pen, because
you're going to want to takenotes on this one, let's dive
in.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I'm
greatly honored today to bejoined by Margie Graziano.
(01:08):
Margie has had an interestingcareer, moving from a working
mother all the way through toleading one of the world's
fastest growing consultancycompanies and becoming the best
selling author of a book calledIgnite culture, and that's what
we're going to be talking abouttoday. We're going to be talking
about culture and the culture ofhigh performance teams. So I'm
(01:31):
really dying to get into thiscontent. So Margie, without any
further ado, I'd love to hearfrom you tell us a bit about
your background and whatinspired you to do the work that
you do with companies today, andwhat inspired you to write this
book about igniting culture?
Margaret Graziano (01:48):
Yeah, so my background is I've spent over 20
years in the search recruitingand search field so placing over
10,000 people in full time andcontract positions. So I learned
firsthand why people take jobs,why people leave jobs, and why
(02:10):
people stay and why people getpromoted. And through my
journey, super curious, highlytheoretical, I went to back to
school for organizationaldevelopment. I went back to
school for executive coaching. Iwent back to school for
behavioral analytics andpsychometric assessment, and in
(02:33):
the rendition of my career rightnow, I have taken everything I
learned from all of those and Iwork with organizations on how
to lead healthy, intentional andhigh performance organizations
from the inside out. So itbegins with the leader, which is
where the coaching comes in,then the leadership team, and
(02:56):
then everybody they impact.
Mick Spiers (02:59):
You really good, Margie there's a few things
already I love, you know, these,these words, intentional, the
impactful, the high performancefrom the inside out. And I
definitely want to unpack that.
I'm curious about your researchthat you're talking about at the
start there. We talk about thisa lot in the world. You know,
why do people leave companies?
Why do they stay? Why do theyleave? Curious to know what you
(03:20):
found?
Margaret Graziano (03:21):
Yeah, so used to be we would hear, oh, people
don't leave companies. Theyleave bosses. And I think that's
partially true what I have seen,and it's why I moved into the
organ and was curious about theorganizational development and
organizational performance.
There's a lot of friction incompanies. I mean, so much
(03:42):
friction, it's mind blowing, andso much money wasting as a
result of that friction. Soright now, Gallup did a survey,
and 75% of the people working inorganizations say that they
experience stress over 50% oftheir workday, and 30% of that
stress is due to interpersonalconflicts. So it'll give you a
(04:03):
little bit of research on that.
And what I see when, whencompanies call us and we go in,
the first thing we'll do is datacollection, because that is what
all professional organizationaldevelopment, people learn to do.
The first thing you wanna do iscollect data. And so in our
(04:25):
personal interviews and in ourgroup interviews, I'll show them
the chart of the seven levels ofeffectiveness. The lowest level
is hopelessness. The highestlevel is synchronicity, and then
there's fear, and then there'sfrustration, and then there's
courage, and then there'sengagement, and then there's
(04:47):
innovation, and then there'ssynchronicity. Most people in
most companies tell me that theyspend 40 to 50% of their time
straddling frustration andanxiety. If you know. Anything
about brain science, aboutneuroscience, even 101, which I
don't know these days in thecoaching school, if they're if
(05:08):
you have to sign up extra forthat, like with be above
leadership, with Anne andUrsula, or if the coaching
schools are dealing with this,but if your brain is operating
in aggravation, you can't thinkstraight. You get like this haze
because your amygdala has takenyour prefrontal cortex hostage
(05:29):
because it thinks you're indanger. The same thing if you're
operating in anxiety, you can'taccess your prefrontal cortex,
which is the seat of yourexecutive brain, which is your
critical thinker, you can'taccess so you freeze, or you
forget, or you just spin a lotof wheels. It's that downward
(05:51):
spiral. And what I want to sayabout that is, in the beginning,
most people in mostorganizations will say it's
them, it's leadership, it'ssales, it's operations, it's
this one, that one, but throughthe work we do with them, they
realize that there's three otherfingers pointing back at them,
(06:12):
which is the self piece. Whichis why we say transformation
from the inside out, because ifI'm part of a triad or a quad or
a group of seven or eight, I am1/8, 1/7, 1/3, one, half of the
problem always, it's never oneperson. And back in the days of
recruiting, when they would saypeople don't leave jobs, they
(06:34):
leave managers. And everybodybelieves that and says it's
true, actually, what peopleleave is their own discomfort.
Sometimes it's housed as a badmanager. Sometimes it's
perceived as no strategy in thecompany. Sometimes it's
perceived as screwed up culture.
I'm out of here, but when thesame person leaves job after job
(06:55):
after job after job and isalways blaming all those jobs.
You gotta look at who am I andwhat am I bringing or perceiving
in every place I work. I've metmaybe one or two companies that
are truly toxic. The rest ofthem have just lost their way.
And I know there are companiesout there that are truly toxic.
(07:16):
And I also know the rest of themjust lost their way, and they
just don't know how as thecompany scales, how to deal with
all these personality conflictsand weird stuff, or they don't
know how to scale thearchitecture to support the
environment, to fulfill theultimate intent of the
(07:37):
organization. So it's a long wayto answer that question.
Mick Spiers (07:44):
It's really powerful Margie, and there's
lots of nuggets of gold inthere, so I'm going to unpack a
few of them. So first of all,the one common denominator in
every relationship breakout downthat I've been in has been me,
right? So there's a certaintruthiness to what you're
saying. There you are, thatcommon denominator and this
thing, it's always them, a bitof a victim mindset. It wasn't
(08:06):
me, it was them. And I'm goingto reframe that and say It's
always us. You've played a role,but so has your environment and
and what has happened aroundyou, and that friction that you
mentioned, is a huge part of it.
So part of it is the personalrelationships. And I'll share a
view here with you, that whenpeople go home from work at the
end of the day and they've had avery bad day, it's usually
(08:28):
something to do with a personalrelationship. It's usually
you're not going to believe whatthis person did to me, and not
thinking about the full circlethat you're part of that as
well. It's not a spreadsheet.
It's not the craft of doing thejob. It's the interpersonal
relationships. Quite often it isthe boss, Margie, but it doesn't
(08:50):
have to be the boss. It can beco workers and other things. And
the other part is the friction,the frustration, the
bureaucracy, the friction thatyou speak about, if I can't do
my job because I haven't beenempowered, I haven't been
enabled, or there was some kindof bureaucratic hurdle in my
way. I also go home frustrated.
How does that sit with you?
Margaret Graziano (09:09):
Yeah, so there's, there's so much about
what you said, too. So first andforemost, if you haven't read
Michael Brown presence, it's agreat book, and Michael and Joe
Dispenza, who breaking the habitof being you. Margaret, Paul, I
mean all these wonderful authorsand teachers and Bruce Lipton,
(09:31):
The Biology of Belief will arestarting to point to 85 or more
percent of our life is spent inreflection or projection. So
even if I hate my boss, my bossreminds me of somebody from my
past. The boss is never justbrand new. I'm 45 years old, and
(09:53):
I hate my boss. The boss is areflection of somebody from my
past who did me. Wrong or Iperceived he did me wrong. And
when the boss opens his mouth,no matter what he says, because
he's a reflection, or she's areflection of the past, I'm now
projecting my thinking, myperceiving on that guy or gal.
(10:16):
So they just can't win. So ifyou are willing to accept that,
which at 20 a lot of us areunwilling, even at 30, but
around 45 you start to get thatwherever you go, there you are,
and you start to takeresponsibility, hopefully, for
your impact, which going toschool and learning coaching
(10:38):
really allows that reflectiontime. You actually have to do it
to be a good coach. But even ifyou're a leader like you and
your podcast, Mick, you know,leaders need to reflect. So a
percentage of my bad boss is,what am I reflecting and what am
I projecting, which MichaelBrown does a great job of
explaining Bruce Lipton and JoeDispenza. Now, sometimes we did
(11:02):
get a bad boss, but why do westay Why do we keep dealing with
it? Or what are we doing toperpetuate the issue? I'm
coaching someone right now whoworks for the most difficult
person in the company. He alsoholds the largest fund in the
company. It's a private equitycompany, and the guy manages the
(11:23):
most amount of money, likemultiple billions, and he's a
type A and his needs are notbeing met, and so he's kind of a
jerk at work. And I said to theguy I'm coaching, who is the guy
who reports to him, Have youever asked him what keeps him up
at night, or what sets him off,or what puts him in a pissy
mood? And he said no, because Iknow. And I said, Well, I'll
(11:44):
tell you what, when you startengaging with him as a peer,
you'll start to know how to beon the better side of his mood,
because from what I know of,Type A's is when they're on a
mission to go get somethingdone, and they're thwarted, they
get nasty, they get mean, theyget short with people, they're
(12:05):
impatient, they're crabby. Andit's not just, you know, the
type a there's a lot ofdifferent personality types at
work that get triggered, thatcause aggressive, defensive
behavior. There's theperfectionist, there's the
opposer, there's the power, youknow, the power guy or gal, and
then there's the so I said, aposer, power perfection, the
(12:29):
competitor, the guy or gal, hasalways got to win when the
aggressive gets doesn't get whatthey need or want, watch out.
But there's another culprit atplay, and that's the passive
defensive. This is the avoider,the one that needs permission,
the one that's complacent, orthe one that wants to conform.
(12:52):
And when the passive defensiveare overly passive, they're over
using that trait. Guess whathappens to the defensive
aggressive so we're all in thiswar of friction, and when we all
can just calm the heck down andrealize that we're bringing our
(13:14):
past in and mostly our mostunderdeveloped part of our self
is what creates our strengths,and when we're lit up or
reactivated or under the gun,that's what shows up, not our
highest and best self. It's whyI have the compass up there. I
(13:37):
mean, it's to remind me, am I atmy highest and best self, and am
I supporting other people inbeing at their highest and best
self? Because when we are in themidst of friction, I don't care
who you are, you're part of theproblem. And usually it's not
250 year olds having a debate.
Usually it's two eight year oldsat the playground deciding who's
going to get the ball, or twoteenage kids deciding who's
(13:59):
going to get the girl or the boyor whatever stuff we carry from
our past.
Mick Spiers (14:06):
Yeah, really good, Margie. All of those characters
show up in most workplaces. SoI'm sure that there's people
listening to the show going, Ohyeah, I know that one. I know
that one. Well, don't forget tolook in the mirror. You're one
of those as well. I love thepoint that you said about the
reflection and projection, andsome of it is reflecting back
things that you thinking you'reseeing, and then projection,
(14:27):
projecting your owninsecurities. So if you find
yourself saying statements like,oh, that person only did that
because part of your brain issaying how you would have
reacted in the same situation,so make sure you're applying
some critical thinking to this,to make sure that you know it to
be true, and to be careful withconfirmation bias, because
(14:50):
you'll then start seeing thethings that confirm this view
that you're formed, and youwon't see the things that that
disprove what you think you'reseeing.
Margaret Graziano (15:00):
He's always.
Mick Spiers (15:02):
Exactly.
Margaret Graziano (15:02):
That's confirmation. And then, and then
you do, you look for evidence.
You look for evidence of how badthis person is or how good this
person is.
Mick Spiers (15:12):
Yeah, exactly. And you might, you might miss red
flags. If your confirmation biasis on the positive, you might
miss a few red flags that youshould have been paying
attention to, and if it's on thenegative, you'll only see the
bad in that person. Then I lovethat. The action part that you
said about, well, what are yougoing to do about it? So, so if
there is a situation that you'renot happy with, don't just go
(15:34):
into your shell. Have aconversation with them. And
people can't fix what they don'tknow about. So unless you have
that conversation. Yeah, go. Goahead, Margie.
Margaret Graziano (15:42):
And most people don't. That's when we go
in and do our deep alignmentretreats. There are these three
day deep dive retreats. We areopening the floor for telling
the truth about what's notworking, you'd be shocked at how
(16:04):
little training people have inwhat I call clearing and upset,
or clearing the space. Thereneeds to be more training in
organizations of how to clearthe space, how to clear and
upset. How do you even know thatyou're upset? You know, there's
three indicators that you mightbe upset you know that show you
(16:24):
know, you know something ishappening when. But there's an
upset whenever one of yourvalues has been stepped over and
you feel friction, constraint,ickiness about it. There's also
an upset when you wantedsomething to happen, and you
thought it was going to happenand it didn't happen. An
(16:45):
unfulfilled expectation. There'salso an upset when you wanted
someone to happen and wantedsomething to happen and you were
counting on someone else to doit, and that would be like a
thwarted intention, like, Hey,you were supposed to do this
thing, or have give me a raiseor give me a promotion, and it
(17:06):
didn't happen. And so then, ofcourse, you look outside, and
then the it's actually fourindicators. And the fourth one
is you have something to say,and you haven't said it. You've
been suppressing it or holdingit in. And then, you know, when
you hold it in and hold it in,it erupts. But all of those
(17:26):
things is typically somethingyou value was stepped over and
the brain, it's easy for thebrain to take a shortcut and
say, back to the bad boss. Thatbad boss did this to me, much
harder for the brain to take astep back and say, How did I
contribute to this breakdown?
What's my cause in the matter ofit? And that's really when we I
(17:47):
was just a podcast, and the guysaid, Tell me about the
evolution of your business. Andit wasn't always from the inside
out. It was we added from theinside out when so many people
were thinking they had nothingto do with the dysfunction, or
people would call me and say, wethink we need to fire John. John
(18:08):
is the problem. And you know,I'm like, it's never just John.
Man. We're all a family, andwe're all bringing in our
baggage.
Mick Spiers (18:20):
This is a really powerful takeaway,
already,Margie, so firstly, theInside Out has come out a few
times, and the words I'mscreaming in my head, how did I
contribute or perpetuate? Howdid I contribute or perpetuate
this situation? And you are, youare part of that situation. Then
everything else I heard from youin that last stanza was the
(18:42):
heart of emotional intelligence,to be able to get out of
autopilot and start noticing andnaming the emotion that you're
feeling. And all emotions areinformation. They're telling you
about a met or unmet need.
Positive emotions are about amet need. Negative emotions are
about an unmet need. So what isthis emotion? Why this emotion?
Why this emotion now? And if youcan do that, by the way, you're
(19:06):
going to get yourself out of theroot brain. You get yourself
into the limbic brain andpotentially to the to the
frontal cortex to start makingmore logical, rather than
reactionary, decisions. How doesthat sit with you, Margie?
Margaret Graziano (19:22):
I want to add one thing to what you said. It's
everything you said. And whatdoes this remind me of where
else felt it so this is a sillyexample, but I'm going to give
it to you. So when I get onstage, I get my hair and makeup
done, and I was doing a showcaseabout two months ago for a bunch
of speaking bureaus, and I gotmy hair done in Florida. And I
(19:46):
didn't know the woman, but shecertainly did not do my hair
like my hair is in all thepictures. She made these spiral
curls. And I looked at myself inthe mirror, and I was
devastated, and I had to bedownstairs in three. 30 minutes,
I looked like little orphan,Annie, like from Annie, it was
awful. And so I went and I didthe showcase, and I did okay,
(20:10):
but it was for a woman, her hairand makeup very important. If
she's on stage. Men might dosomething else, but I know for a
woman, it's like if you don'tfeel good about how you look, it
often can impact how youdeliver, especially on stage
when you're being judged andfilmed. So I was getting my hair
(20:31):
done at home in my ownterritory, with my own people,
and I was telling them thestory, and I said, I have a
little bit of PTSD because Ican't see you doing my hair.
Whatever you do, don't get methose curls. And then I thought
about it, and that moment, Iremembered back when I first got
a divorce, I went on a blue ofblack tie affair date. I had
(20:53):
this beautiful gown that hebought me, $1,000 Armani gown. I
would never spend that, but hebought it for me, and I took it
and wore it, and then I had myhair done, and she made me look
like tendril curls. That is notmy MO I looked ridiculous. I
opened the door and he saw me,and he laughed. Not good. I
(21:14):
stopped going out with him, butstill, and he saw it. I didn't
look well. Then I thought backmiddle school, I got my first
perm. Again, I look like LittleOrphan Annie. My mother worked
with me so hard to fix thatperm. We put so many chemicals
in my hair, it turned green, andI had to start my first day of
(21:34):
middle school with green hair.
So we have all this stuff thathappens in and I'm using a silly
example of hair, but still, atmy age now, I'm in a chair
someone I know is doing my hair,and I get the flash little
orphan. Annie, well, thathappens with bosses. That
happens with reports. It happenswith public speaking. It happens
(21:54):
with performance reviews, andmost people are not saying, what
does this remind me of? Talkedto because we were too
assertive, or we got talked tobecause we weren't assertive
(22:14):
enough, or we got talked tobecause we didn't deliver as
intended on something, or we hada bad hair day, and we bring
those things into the present,and it really does cause an
awful lot of friction betweenrelationships, because we're not
clean, we're not clear. We'reeach bringing in this past and
(22:37):
and sometimes when there'sfriction at work, it's not 250
year old adults, it's 2/8graders or 2/3 graders or two
teenagers. And people don'trealize that that's who's
showing up in the meeting untilthey reflect. So I think the
(23:00):
number one competency that Iwould say that everyone who
cares about culture and abouthappiness needs to focus on is
self awareness.
Mick Spiers (23:16):
All right, yeah, really good. So starting with
self awareness, I'm going toshare a little story with you,
Margie, and it takes intentionalaction to do what I'm about to
say. If I've had a disagreementwith someone, or I've sent an
email, and the email I get backis complete gobbledygook and
going, what on earth I have topurposely pause and delay and
(23:40):
go? Well, hang on a second. Whatcould I have done differently to
get a different result? Thatdoesn't mean that it's all me
and it doesn't mean that it'sall them, but my first step is
to think about, how did I showup? What could I have done
differently? Who did I show up?
Was it my eighth grader or wasit my 51 year old? I'm 51 now. I
think I'm wiser than my eighthgrader self, maybe sometimes,
(24:00):
but yeah, I'd need to take thatintentional act to self reflect.
How am I showing up, and whatcan I do differently to get a
different result, before I startlooking at the environment
around me and the other person,how does that sit with you, with
this inside out philosophy thatyou're sharing with us?
Margaret Graziano (24:21):
If we would all do that, we would be in much
better condition to have abetter experience at work. So
you know, the other thing thatis coming up for me right now is
somebody might be listening tothis saying, I like my job, I
like making good money, but Idon't really care about the
organization long term, becauseI'm only here for a few years.
(24:43):
But the question is, do you likeyour life, and do you want to go
home and be present and withyour family and with your
friends and not be alwaysstruggling with work? Because we
don't leave it at work, we drivehome and we take it in the house
with us. US, and the name of thegame is having agency, autonomy
(25:05):
and authority in all of life,and what that requires is to
reduce the friction at work.
Naturally. There's friction,there's challenges. The Internet
goes out, somebody forgets topay a bill or sign up for a
license, or a client changesdirection, or the new product
has a glitch in it, there'sthere's naturally friction that
(25:28):
will occur. So why add to it?
The cleaner we can be with eachother, and the cleaner we can
be, the quicker we can responsewith agility to what's needed
now. And that's this wholethematic body of work,
responsibility, which is what wedo when we're working with
(25:50):
individuals, teams andorganizations, is how do we
elevate the level ofresponsibility so that who's
solving the problem is present,equipped, aware and connected,
and takes action in accordancewith their own values and with
the values of the organization,and takes the kind of action
(26:12):
that doesn't createrepercussions downstream.
Because when we're in a state offrustration and we don't have
access to our prefrontal cortex,our executive brain, we come up
with solutions that often cause10 other problems downstream
because we have no access to ourwhole thinking, so we can't
(26:33):
think systemically when we arethinking through frustration or
fear.
Mick Spiers (26:40):
Yeah, really, really powerful motion here. So
starting with that, selfawareness for sure,
understanding where my emotionalstate is. Am I in my root brain,
or am I able to access thelimbic brain and the in the
frontal cortex to make sure thatI am thinking clearly? And one
of the things I think of hereis, am I reacting, or am I
responding? And if I'm always inreactionary mode. It's going to
(27:02):
be that root brain Fight, fight,flight or freeze reaction that
hasn't thought things throughclearly at all.
Margaret Graziano (27:10):
Well and can't it's not even it's not
like a bad and wrong. The brainhas been orchestrated to defend
you in trouble like a sabertoothed Tiger, defend you. So
all of your blood drains fromyour brain, goes to protect your
internal organs, puts likeinflammation to protect you. And
(27:35):
so you don't even have access.
You have no control over it, butwhat you do have control over is
learning to slow down. What youdo have control over is choosing
to practice mindfulness. Whatyou do have control over is self
awareness, but in the moment ofthe crisis that your amygdala
thinks you're in, you don't haveany of that control. You've lost
(27:58):
it.
Mick Spiers (28:00):
Yeah, really good.
All right. So we take a beat,maybe a few deep breaths. It can
take as little as six seconds tojust process, and then I'm going
to respond, not react. This isgoing to be a really key part of
it. Want to throw something toyou about the friction that's
come up a lot. Margie, so thisworks. This bounces off the work
of Timothy, go away. The authorof the book The inner game, and
(28:21):
his equation for performance is,performance is equal to
potential minus interference.
Oh, my God, that's so good. Andwe see so many businesses and
people work on their potential,but don't take the time to
remove the interference. Andguess what? There's a reason why
the his book is called the innergame. Most of the interference
(28:44):
is in here. It's in your brain.
It's about how you're perceivingwhat's going on around you. And
if we don't take that time toremove the friction, our full
potential can't be achieved. Howdoes that sit with you? With
your friction to flow thispotential, modest interference.
Margaret Graziano (29:02):
Totally. And I would say the interference is
it's personal and interpersonaland even team and
organizational, because justthink about your own family. You
live with somebody, you have away you interact with each
other. You've got interferencein your own head. They've got
interference in their own head.
Now they're interacting witheach other through that
(29:25):
interference. That's whatclearing the space is about.
That's what cleaning up isabout. And we do that in our
deep alignment, like we'll have.
We're starting at a level set ata ground zero, so we can begin
again, which is a coachingdistinction, and so I agree 100%
(29:45):
I wrote the book down. I think Icall it constraints, internal
and external constraints, but Ithink that we can point enough
data to that 40 or 50% ofpayroll costs. Are being spent
on interference rather thanperformance, which is why so
many people that run companiesare out of their mind aggravated
(30:10):
by performance, and they thinkit's mandating everybody come
back to work, which could help,because at least there's focus,
but if then there's a lot ofinterference in the office, then
you're going to have peoplesaying, I was way more
productive at home. And so Ithink the, you know, if we go
back to the 1960s when Ram Dassfirst started taking Eastern
(30:34):
philosophy through the UnitedStates and through the world,
that was when the inner gamebegan. That's when the birth of
the human potential movementblossomed. I mean, it was the
Ram Das movement, wrist for themill, and polishing the mirror
and all the other work that hedid. And then, I don't know if,
(30:57):
if you have an institute downthere, we have Esalen Institute,
which in the in the States, theysay, is the birthplace of the
human potential movement. Peoplelike Timothy Leary and ROM das
and Daniel Goldman, believe itor not, the guy who wrote the
book on EQ was in India with RamDass. They were all part of the
(31:19):
same cohort. They call him Dannyand, you know, Jack Kornfield
and all of those people got onthis, this mission to bring the
inner game into the world. Andthen in the 80s, it just got,
who needs that? We're on a raceto the moon. Who needs that
(31:40):
we're, you know, we've got tackand high tech and and now, I
think, because of AI and becauseof the battle for technological
supremacy, the inner game meansmore than anything, because
anything that can and will beautomated. And so what's left is
us. Daniel Pink talks about, inhis book to sell as human. He's
(32:04):
not really talking about sales.
He's talking about interacting.
He's talking about being withpeople. He's talking about
emotional quotient, and we'regoing to all need to be way
better at that when a third or afourth or 50% of our job can be
automated. What's left then it'swhat I bring. That's my
(32:26):
intuition, my innateintelligence that a machine does
not have, at least not yet, andmy insight, that's what a human
brings. So we all whether wethink we have friction at work
or not, we all want to becultivating this inside out
world.
Mick Spiers (32:46):
What you caught my attention with there Margie, was
the 40 to 50% inefficiency andfriction, which, for some
companies might be conservative.
By the way, what I was thinkingis many CEOs out there that
would think that they want toincrease productivity, and their
their first go to is, oh, weneed more people. Well, hang on
a second. You're not, you're notmaking the most of the people
that you've already got. You'renot tapping into their inner,
(33:08):
inner genius. And by the way, ifit's a, if it's a, let's say
it's a dysfunctional machinetoday, adding more interfaces
makes it even more complex. It'sactually going to grind it to a
halt.
Margaret Graziano (33:23):
Yeah, it's interesting that as coaches and
if, especially if you'reorganizational, like if you're
holistic thinking, and you'reyou've got good systems
judgment, you can see it. Somepeople in HR can see it, but
they lack the vernacular tocommunicate it in a way that can
be heard. But for most of thetime, my clients don't really
(33:46):
see it until we put them insimulations and they see how
much time they waste spinning.
It's this experiential spinningNess that has them see it. And
then we say, now add that, ifthere's 17 people in this room,
and you have 1500 employees, or500 employees, or 300 employees,
just imagine the payroll cost.
(34:10):
And then the eyes start and thenthen they start getting angry,
because you don't when you havea problem, like, that's like,
what do I do about it? It can befixed, but the last thing you
want to do is throw more peopleat the problem, because it just
adds the complexity and thechaos and and like what you just
said, If communication is roughbetween 20 people, with 20
(34:32):
people, there's something likefor for me and you, if we're
communicating, We have fouropportunities for a
miscommunication, I saysomething in a way that you
can't hear it. I hear what yousaid through my own filter. So
that's me bringing twomiscommunications. You bringing
(34:52):
two miscommunications becauseyou hear it differently and say
it differently. So with twopeople, there's four
opportunities formiscommunication. With five
people, it's double the amountof opportunities for
miscommunication, and then itscales from there, because
everybody's listening andspeaking on their own
vibrational level. And even thewords people use, I'll say, A,
(35:17):
B, C, D, E, and then I'll say tosomebody in the audience, what
did you hear? And they'll say,Z, X, W, 2, 4, 6.
Mick Spiers (35:27):
The world is full of examples of that Margie,
where people walk away from thesame conversation with a
completely differentunderstanding of what was just
said. And to get to your point,about the 17 people in the room,
and there's 500 people in theorganization, what do those 17
people do? They go off in theirown direction. And before you
know it, it has not justmultiplied, it's exponentially
(35:48):
multiplied.
Margaret Graziano (35:50):
And they go off in their own direction from
their own egoic perspective andtheir own past and all their own
projections and all their ownreflections, and for the most
part, these are good people. Theamount of evil doers in the
world is limited, at least rightnow. I think through history,
(36:12):
it's been limited. Most humanbeings want peace. They want
joy. They want happiness. Theywant people to collaborate. Most
people, they're not. They don'twake up in the morning and say,
How can I be evil today? Maybethere's a few of those people in
my country right now, but butfor the most part, I just don't
(36:33):
think the greater masses ofhumanity want to go to work and
create that kind of trouble.
Mick Spiers (36:39):
So before we hit record, Margie, you and I spoke
about the stat that only one infive people in the world truly
love their job and like theirboss. But I can tell you, both
bosses and employees and everylayer of the organization, very
few. There's probably a verysmall percentage of completely
narcissistic people. Very fewpeople turn up to work, going,
(37:00):
rubbing their hands, going, howcan I be a jerk today? It just
doesn't happen. Just doesn'thappen. And yet our mind gets
away on.
Margaret Graziano (37:09):
They don't know when, they don't know what
they don't know about theirimpact.
Mick Spiers (37:13):
Yeah, that's it.
That's exactly right. Okay, so Iwant to reflect on some of the
things we've covered so far.
I've got one more questionbefore we head to our closing
round. So everything I'm hearingtoday, this inside out concept,
is really grabbing hold of me,Margie, and thinking about when
you see something in someoneelse, first thing check, are you
(37:35):
is this reflection andprojection, or are you truly
objectively observing thebehavior of the other person.
Then stop and think about, howam I contributing to or
perpetuating this situation?
What role did I play to gethere? It's not them, it's us. So
you've played a role in how toget there, the self awareness,
(37:55):
the emotional intelligence tothink about, what am I feeling
now? Why am I feeling thatemotion? Why this emotion? Why
this emotion? Now? What is ittrying to tell me about a met or
unmet need? And now we can startbringing together some more
reasoned and critical thinkingto the situation where we stop
reacting and we start respondingbased upon what am I feeling.
(38:18):
And one of the really big onethat you shared, what is it
reminding me of as well to lookat is this bringing something up
from my past that I haven'tfully processed, that's going to
impact my judgment today? Theseare really powerful.
Margaret Graziano (38:35):
I want to share with you. So I don't know
if we could put this QR code inthe notes, the show notes, but
basically, this is a ebook ontransforming transforming
friction to flow. And there'stwo other steps in there, and
one of them is, you've got to bein this state of neutrality
(38:56):
before you jump to a conclusion.
And if you are hot under thecollar, or you know out of your
mind, or spinning out down thespiral, down to hopelessness,
you will never be objective. Youcan't be so you want to get
yourself at least to neutral, Itell my clients, just be like
the Buddha for one minute. Justbe neutral. A mountain is a
(39:21):
mountain. It doesn't think aboutbeing a mountain. It's not good
or bad. It's just a mountain.
That guy did what he did, and hejust did that. And then the you
were talking earlier aboutbreathing, we give people all
sorts of different processes toget themselves back to neutral
so they can take action. We sayit's 90 seconds. You have to be
(39:42):
really good to do it in fiveseconds. Really good to do it in
six seconds. But 90 secondsallows you to go through the
whole sculpt process, stop andact, understand, listen, process
and take action. Other things.
We didn't talk about and wewon't have time for today.
Connect to what? What am Iconnecting to? Well, some of the
(40:05):
cultivating work people need todo to master responsibility and
master having a healthy,intentional high performance
culture is creating a noblecause for the business and
creating an ultimate intent foryour life. It's why we're the
compass. It's why I have thecompass behind me. What's my
North Star? What is it about forme? Am I just going to work to
(40:28):
get a paycheck and deal with allthe crap all day long, so that I
can have the paycheck, so that Ican live life and then go back
to work and bring all myaggravation home? No, I'm
working as a vehicle tosomething that's important to me
in life, and we need to do thework before the 90 seconds or
six seconds or five seconds.
(40:51):
What am I working for? Why am Ihere? Why did I pick this job?
Why am I in this role? Why thiscompany? Otherwise we're like a
boat in the ocean with norudder, and we're at the affect
of all of the waves and the rainand the storms and the climate,
and we will all be at the effectof things some of the time. But
(41:13):
wouldn't it be awesome to be themaster of our own ship, 85 to
95% of the time to be awake andaware to what is and making
choices from our highest andbest self. Wouldn't we all want
that most of the time?
Mick Spiers (41:31):
Absolutely Margie and connecting to our why and to
our purpose, it becomes thatpoint of resilience, but it also
can help channel our energy inthe right direction. So part of
that check in with yourself isunderstanding, is this critical?
Is it on the path towards myNorth Star? I think that's a
powerful reflection as well.
Okay, so the final question Iwant to ask, let's say that the
(41:53):
person's done the inner work, sothey're starting to process more
clearly. Margie, they're doingthat. What role did I play in
this situation? They'veprocessed they're much more
clearer. They're coming fromneutrality. What then? So, yes,
we start with us, but then whenwe reconnect to the other person
that we might be having theconflict or friction with, how
(42:16):
do we then take the next steponce we've done that inner work.
Margaret Graziano (42:23):
So it's really good. So one of the
exercises that we have people dois imagine you at your highest
and best self. Picture yourselfhaving a conversation with this
person. From your intent, yourultimate intent, who you are,
what's important to your life?
Mine, for example, is people areliberated. It's why I do
(42:43):
everything I do. And I imaginemyself having a conversation
from that place and ex feel theexpansion of energy of me being
my highest and best having aconversation when I am
visualizing me having thatconversation, and I'm also
holding the space for whateverhas me hot under the collar or
(43:04):
aggravated or sad or upset oranxious or worried. I'm not
dismissing it. I'm notpretending it's not there. It's
there. I'm witnessing it from aplace of neutrality, but I'm
bringing in my highest and bestself, what would she do? What
would she say? She wouldn'tblame that guy. She would say
(43:26):
something like, I notice thatI'm suppressing around you and
that I'm getting aggravated. Canwe talk about what's in the way
here? Because there's a lot offriction, or you might in
visualizing your highest andbest self, you might say, oh, I
need to be curious with thatperson. Hey, I'm noticing we're
(43:49):
not clicking right now thereseems to be a lot of
aggravation. Am I doing orsaying something that is ticking
you off? Have I forgottensomething? Is there something I
said, or did that made you feelless than respected by me? I
mean, it's it's getting curious.
(44:10):
I there's not one thing I cansay, what I could what the
recipe I have and I coach to andin the the free ebook on turning
friction to flow or movingfriction to flow. It's getting
in your highest and best selfand asking yourself, what's the
next right move? What actionwould give me? Alignment with my
(44:33):
highest and best self, alignmentwith our noble cause, alignment
with my values, alignment withour company values, and then
you'll come up with all sorts ofdifferent actions, but you've
got to, and you've talked a lotabout it, and I have, you've got
to take responsibility for whereyou are now. Embody those
(44:54):
emotions, process, where didthey come from? What's going on?
Blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah,and then what do I want? And
then what's the next right thingto do? Being what I want, who I
want, what I'm committed to. Butmost of us don't take those 90
seconds. We just you pissed meoff. Boom, I'm gonna fight you.
(45:16):
You did this. You did that. Andthen we have, you know, a replay
of our relationship with one ofour siblings in the workplace or
with one of our parents.
Mick Spiers (45:24):
Yeah, and adding fuel to the fire. So really
powerful technique that I'mhearing there, Margie is a fly
on the wall or a balcony view ofthe conversation, but doing it
through the eyes of your highestand best self. So the person
that you would be most proud tobecome the person that you're
trying to become. What wouldthey do? That's a great that's a
(45:46):
great example.
Margaret Graziano (45:48):
Yeah. And my coach once told me, you know, in
coaching school, they do a lotabout the future self, who
you're becoming, and MichelleObama becoming. I have a coach
who's really powerful inontology, the study of being
human. She says, I'm tired ofhearing about your future self.
Your future self is who you arenow, who you declare you are
now. It's the highest and bestversion of you, moment by moment
(46:11):
by moment, we could pick to bethat highest and best version
and the highest version ofourself. We're not blaming,
we're not shaming. We aregenerating, we are giving, we
are contributing, we are livingin alignment. So what would that
person do now, here and now, andthat coach is cookie Boudreau,
(46:32):
and she's made such a differencefor me in my life, so I always
want to give her the kudoscookie deserves.
Mick Spiers (46:39):
Yeah, I love it.
All right, brilliant, Margie,you've given us so much to think
about today, a lot of personalreflection, and the Inside Out
philosophy is the one that I'mtaking away, for sure, and I
know that the audience, like, ifyou're listening to this right
now, the things that Margie istalking about, you can start
today. You can start with littlesteps today, to take some time,
to take a beat to take a fewdeep breaths, to process, to
(47:01):
start getting into response, notreaction. You can start taking
these things today and stop andthis external view of it's
always them. That's where westarted this conversation is
Margie was pointing her fingers,going, it was them, it was them.
What role did you play? Whatrole did you play. What did you
do here? Yeah, the fingerexercise. So on the video
(47:23):
podcast, Margie is holding upher fingers, and when you point
with one finger, three fingersare pointed back to you. So what
role did you play to contributeor perpetuate this situation? I
think if we start with that,then you got the building blocks
on how you can move forward. Allright, Margie, I want to take us
now to our our Rapid Round.
(47:43):
These are the same fourquestions we ask all of our
guests. So what's the one thingthat you know now? Margie
graziono, that you wish you knewwhen you were 20?
Margaret Graziano (47:53):
That I will always be a work in progress,
that there is no end game. Thereis no I got to the mountain. I'm
done, and that whenever there isfriction, I have a role in that.
I didn't I didn't get that untilI was 36.
Mick Spiers (48:12):
They're both very powerful and very aligned with
our conversation today as well.
Margie, thank you. What's yourfavorite book?
Margaret Graziano (48:19):
Right now? I do a lot of reading, and I have
different favorites at differenttimes, but right now, giving the
time we're living in, reclaimhigher ground by Lance secreten.
Secreten Creating organizationsthat inspire the Soul. And this
is a very influential book inhow I got started, how I got
(48:40):
into culture, I realized thatjust placing people in jobs,
while it is noble, gettingpeople work is noble. It wasn't
my soul's calling. My soul'scalling was once they're
together. How do we have themequipped to thrive? And I love
this book. Love it, love it.
Love it, love it.
Mick Spiers (49:00):
All right, brilliant. We haven't had that
one on the show, so it's a goodone to add to our list. Well
done. Thank you. What's yourfavorite quote?
Margaret Graziano (49:06):
My favorite quote is by Ram Dass, and this
is for this is for now, for thetimes we are in right now. Let's
trade in all our judging forappreciating. Let's lay down our
righteousness and just betogether, Ram Das.
Mick Spiers (49:24):
I love it. It's so powerful. I hadn't heard that
one either until now, but I lovethat quote. And finally, Margie,
how do people find you? Ifpeople are inspired by this work
and they want to do this insideout work and they want to ignite
culture in their organizations.
How do people get in contactwith you?
Margaret Graziano (49:43):
Well, Ignite culture, if what you want is for
teams and organizations, reallyget the book. It's on Audible.
It's hard copy, it's soft copy,and I think it's under $24 The
other way is through YouTube. Ihave two channels. One is ignite
culture. The other isresponsibility. So if you're if
(50:06):
you're more about leadership,when you might be because you're
on Mick podcast or listening,then that would be
responsibility. If you're aboutculture, then go to the Ignite
culture. My company website iskeenalignment.com and my
personal website ismargaretgraziano.com
Mick Spiers (50:24):
All right, so thank you so much, Margie. This has
been a wonderful conversation.
There's nuggets of goldthroughout. Thank you so much
for sharing your time and yourwisdom with us today.
Margaret Graziano (50:35):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Mick Spiers (50:38):
Thank you for joining us for this powerful
conversation with MargieGraziano, I hope it left you
thinking deeply about theculture you're creating, whether
by design or by default. Iftoday's episode sparks something
in you, I encourage you to pickup a copy of Ignite culture and
explore Margie frameworksfurther and remember this, the
(50:58):
culture you lead is a reflectionof the clarity, courage and care
you bring to the table each day.
In the next episode, I'll bediving into my own reflections
on the conversation with Margieand my own experience about how
to create a culture that you'dbe proud to lead.
(51:22):
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject YouTube channel, where
(51:44):
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do take
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.
If culture is just the way we do things around
(00:04):
here, what happens when that wayno longer serves us, or worse,
burns us out? In today'sepisode, I'm joined by Margie
Graziano, Best Selling Author ofIgnite culture, a passionate
advocate for consciousleadership and a seasoned expert
who has helped place over 10,000professionals in organizations
(00:27):
around the world, we dive deepinto what it really takes to
build a high performance culturefrom the inside out, you'll hear
how intentional leadership,values, aligned hiring and
emotionally intelligentcommunication can transform not
only your team, but your entireorganization. Margie shares
(00:47):
powerful insights fromneuroscience, behavioral
analytics and real worldconsulting that will help you
spark the change your cultureneeds. So grab a pen, because
you're going to want to takenotes on this one, let's dive
in.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project. I'm
greatly honored today to bejoined by Margie Graziano.
(01:08):
Margie has had an interestingcareer, moving from a working
mother all the way through toleading one of the world's
fastest growing consultancycompanies and becoming the best
selling author of a book calledIgnite culture, and that's what
we're going to be talking abouttoday. We're going to be talking
about culture and the culture ofhigh performance teams. So I'm
(01:31):
really dying to get into thiscontent. So Margie, without any
further ado, I'd love to hearfrom you tell us a bit about
your background and whatinspired you to do the work that
you do with companies today, andwhat inspired you to write this
book about igniting culture?
Margaret Graziano (01:48):
Yeah, so my background is I've spent over 20
years in the search recruitingand search field so placing over
10,000 people in full time andcontract positions. So I learned
firsthand why people take jobs,why people leave jobs, and why
(02:10):
people stay and why people getpromoted. And through my
journey, super curious, highlytheoretical, I went to back to
school for organizationaldevelopment. I went back to
school for executive coaching. Iwent back to school for
behavioral analytics andpsychometric assessment, and in
(02:33):
the rendition of my career rightnow, I have taken everything I
learned from all of those and Iwork with organizations on how
to lead healthy, intentional andhigh performance organizations
from the inside out. So itbegins with the leader, which is
where the coaching comes in,then the leadership team, and
(02:56):
then everybody they impact.
Mick Spiers (02:59):
You really good, Margie there's a few things
already I love, you know, these,these words, intentional, the
impactful, the high performancefrom the inside out. And I
definitely want to unpack that.
I'm curious about your researchthat you're talking about at the
start there. We talk about thisa lot in the world. You know,
why do people leave companies?
Why do they stay? Why do theyleave? Curious to know what you
(03:20):
found?
Margaret Graziano (03:21):
Yeah, so used to be we would hear, oh, people
don't leave companies. Theyleave bosses. And I think that's
partially true what I have seen,and it's why I moved into the
organ and was curious about theorganizational development and
organizational performance.
There's a lot of friction incompanies. I mean, so much
(03:42):
friction, it's mind blowing, andso much money wasting as a
result of that friction. Soright now, Gallup did a survey,
and 75% of the people working inorganizations say that they
experience stress over 50% oftheir workday, and 30% of that
stress is due to interpersonalconflicts. So it'll give you a
(04:03):
little bit of research on that.
And what I see when, whencompanies call us and we go in,
the first thing we'll do is datacollection, because that is what
all professional organizationaldevelopment, people learn to do.
The first thing you wanna do iscollect data. And so in our
(04:25):
personal interviews and in ourgroup interviews, I'll show them
the chart of the seven levels ofeffectiveness. The lowest level
is hopelessness. The highestlevel is synchronicity, and then
there's fear, and then there'sfrustration, and then there's
courage, and then there'sengagement, and then there's
(04:47):
innovation, and then there'ssynchronicity. Most people in
most companies tell me that theyspend 40 to 50% of their time
straddling frustration andanxiety. If you know. Anything
about brain science, aboutneuroscience, even 101, which I
don't know these days in thecoaching school, if they're if
(05:08):
you have to sign up extra forthat, like with be above
leadership, with Anne andUrsula, or if the coaching
schools are dealing with this,but if your brain is operating
in aggravation, you can't thinkstraight. You get like this haze
because your amygdala has takenyour prefrontal cortex hostage
(05:29):
because it thinks you're indanger. The same thing if you're
operating in anxiety, you can'taccess your prefrontal cortex,
which is the seat of yourexecutive brain, which is your
critical thinker, you can'taccess so you freeze, or you
forget, or you just spin a lotof wheels. It's that downward
(05:51):
spiral. And what I want to sayabout that is, in the beginning,
most people in mostorganizations will say it's
them, it's leadership, it'ssales, it's operations, it's
this one, that one, but throughthe work we do with them, they
realize that there's three otherfingers pointing back at them,
(06:12):
which is the self piece. Whichis why we say transformation
from the inside out, because ifI'm part of a triad or a quad or
a group of seven or eight, I am1/8, 1/7, 1/3, one, half of the
problem always, it's never oneperson. And back in the days of
recruiting, when they would saypeople don't leave jobs, they
(06:34):
leave managers. And everybodybelieves that and says it's
true, actually, what peopleleave is their own discomfort.
Sometimes it's housed as a badmanager. Sometimes it's
perceived as no strategy in thecompany. Sometimes it's
perceived as screwed up culture.
I'm out of here, but when thesame person leaves job after job
(06:55):
after job after job and isalways blaming all those jobs.
You gotta look at who am I andwhat am I bringing or perceiving
in every place I work. I've metmaybe one or two companies that
are truly toxic. The rest ofthem have just lost their way.
And I know there are companiesout there that are truly toxic.
(07:16):
And I also know the rest of themjust lost their way, and they
just don't know how as thecompany scales, how to deal with
all these personality conflictsand weird stuff, or they don't
know how to scale thearchitecture to support the
environment, to fulfill theultimate intent of the
(07:37):
organization. So it's a long wayto answer that question.
Mick Spiers (07:44):
It's really powerful Margie, and there's
lots of nuggets of gold inthere, so I'm going to unpack a
few of them. So first of all,the one common denominator in
every relationship breakout downthat I've been in has been me,
right? So there's a certaintruthiness to what you're
saying. There you are, thatcommon denominator and this
thing, it's always them, a bitof a victim mindset. It wasn't
(08:06):
me, it was them. And I'm goingto reframe that and say It's
always us. You've played a role,but so has your environment and
and what has happened aroundyou, and that friction that you
mentioned, is a huge part of it.
So part of it is the personalrelationships. And I'll share a
view here with you, that whenpeople go home from work at the
end of the day and they've had avery bad day, it's usually
(08:28):
something to do with a personalrelationship. It's usually
you're not going to believe whatthis person did to me, and not
thinking about the full circlethat you're part of that as
well. It's not a spreadsheet.
It's not the craft of doing thejob. It's the interpersonal
relationships. Quite often it isthe boss, Margie, but it doesn't
(08:50):
have to be the boss. It can beco workers and other things. And
the other part is the friction,the frustration, the
bureaucracy, the friction thatyou speak about, if I can't do
my job because I haven't beenempowered, I haven't been
enabled, or there was some kindof bureaucratic hurdle in my
way. I also go home frustrated.
How does that sit with you?
Margaret Graziano (09:09):
Yeah, so there's, there's so much about
what you said, too. So first andforemost, if you haven't read
Michael Brown presence, it's agreat book, and Michael and Joe
Dispenza, who breaking the habitof being you. Margaret, Paul, I
mean all these wonderful authorsand teachers and Bruce Lipton,
(09:31):
The Biology of Belief will arestarting to point to 85 or more
percent of our life is spent inreflection or projection. So
even if I hate my boss, my bossreminds me of somebody from my
past. The boss is never justbrand new. I'm 45 years old, and
(09:53):
I hate my boss. The boss is areflection of somebody from my
past who did me. Wrong or Iperceived he did me wrong. And
when the boss opens his mouth,no matter what he says, because
he's a reflection, or she's areflection of the past, I'm now
projecting my thinking, myperceiving on that guy or gal.
(10:16):
So they just can't win. So ifyou are willing to accept that,
which at 20 a lot of us areunwilling, even at 30, but
around 45 you start to get thatwherever you go, there you are,
and you start to takeresponsibility, hopefully, for
your impact, which going toschool and learning coaching
(10:38):
really allows that reflectiontime. You actually have to do it
to be a good coach. But even ifyou're a leader like you and
your podcast, Mick, you know,leaders need to reflect. So a
percentage of my bad boss is,what am I reflecting and what am
I projecting, which MichaelBrown does a great job of
explaining Bruce Lipton and JoeDispenza. Now, sometimes we did
(11:02):
get a bad boss, but why do westay Why do we keep dealing with
it? Or what are we doing toperpetuate the issue? I'm
coaching someone right now whoworks for the most difficult
person in the company. He alsoholds the largest fund in the
company. It's a private equitycompany, and the guy manages the
(11:23):
most amount of money, likemultiple billions, and he's a
type A and his needs are notbeing met, and so he's kind of a
jerk at work. And I said to theguy I'm coaching, who is the guy
who reports to him, Have youever asked him what keeps him up
at night, or what sets him off,or what puts him in a pissy
mood? And he said no, because Iknow. And I said, Well, I'll
(11:44):
tell you what, when you startengaging with him as a peer,
you'll start to know how to beon the better side of his mood,
because from what I know of,Type A's is when they're on a
mission to go get somethingdone, and they're thwarted, they
get nasty, they get mean, theyget short with people, they're
(12:05):
impatient, they're crabby. Andit's not just, you know, the
type a there's a lot ofdifferent personality types at
work that get triggered, thatcause aggressive, defensive
behavior. There's theperfectionist, there's the
opposer, there's the power, youknow, the power guy or gal, and
then there's the so I said, aposer, power perfection, the
(12:29):
competitor, the guy or gal, hasalways got to win when the
aggressive gets doesn't get whatthey need or want, watch out.
But there's another culprit atplay, and that's the passive
defensive. This is the avoider,the one that needs permission,
the one that's complacent, orthe one that wants to conform.
(12:52):
And when the passive defensiveare overly passive, they're over
using that trait. Guess whathappens to the defensive
aggressive so we're all in thiswar of friction, and when we all
can just calm the heck down andrealize that we're bringing our
(13:14):
past in and mostly our mostunderdeveloped part of our self
is what creates our strengths,and when we're lit up or
reactivated or under the gun,that's what shows up, not our
highest and best self. It's whyI have the compass up there. I
(13:37):
mean, it's to remind me, am I atmy highest and best self, and am
I supporting other people inbeing at their highest and best
self? Because when we are in themidst of friction, I don't care
who you are, you're part of theproblem. And usually it's not
250 year olds having a debate.
Usually it's two eight year oldsat the playground deciding who's
going to get the ball, or twoteenage kids deciding who's
(13:59):
going to get the girl or the boyor whatever stuff we carry from
our past.
Mick Spiers (14:06):
Yeah, really good, Margie. All of those characters
show up in most workplaces. SoI'm sure that there's people
listening to the show going, Ohyeah, I know that one. I know
that one. Well, don't forget tolook in the mirror. You're one
of those as well. I love thepoint that you said about the
reflection and projection, andsome of it is reflecting back
things that you thinking you'reseeing, and then projection,
(14:27):
projecting your owninsecurities. So if you find
yourself saying statements like,oh, that person only did that
because part of your brain issaying how you would have
reacted in the same situation,so make sure you're applying
some critical thinking to this,to make sure that you know it to
be true, and to be careful withconfirmation bias, because
(14:50):
you'll then start seeing thethings that confirm this view
that you're formed, and youwon't see the things that that
disprove what you think you'reseeing.
Margaret Graziano (15:00):
He's always.
Mick Spiers (15:02):
Exactly.
Margaret Graziano (15:02):
That's confirmation. And then, and then
you do, you look for evidence.
You look for evidence of how badthis person is or how good this
person is.
Mick Spiers (15:12):
Yeah, exactly. And you might, you might miss red
flags. If your confirmation biasis on the positive, you might
miss a few red flags that youshould have been paying
attention to, and if it's on thenegative, you'll only see the
bad in that person. Then I lovethat. The action part that you
said about, well, what are yougoing to do about it? So, so if
there is a situation that you'renot happy with, don't just go
(15:34):
into your shell. Have aconversation with them. And
people can't fix what they don'tknow about. So unless you have
that conversation. Yeah, go. Goahead, Margie.
Margaret Graziano (15:42):
And most people don't. That's when we go
in and do our deep alignmentretreats. There are these three
day deep dive retreats. We areopening the floor for telling
the truth about what's notworking, you'd be shocked at how
(16:04):
little training people have inwhat I call clearing and upset,
or clearing the space. Thereneeds to be more training in
organizations of how to clearthe space, how to clear and
upset. How do you even know thatyou're upset? You know, there's
three indicators that you mightbe upset you know that show you
(16:24):
know, you know something ishappening when. But there's an
upset whenever one of yourvalues has been stepped over and
you feel friction, constraint,ickiness about it. There's also
an upset when you wantedsomething to happen, and you
thought it was going to happenand it didn't happen. An
(16:45):
unfulfilled expectation. There'salso an upset when you wanted
someone to happen and wantedsomething to happen and you were
counting on someone else to doit, and that would be like a
thwarted intention, like, Hey,you were supposed to do this
thing, or have give me a raiseor give me a promotion, and it
(17:06):
didn't happen. And so then, ofcourse, you look outside, and
then the it's actually fourindicators. And the fourth one
is you have something to say,and you haven't said it. You've
been suppressing it or holdingit in. And then, you know, when
you hold it in and hold it in,it erupts. But all of those
(17:26):
things is typically somethingyou value was stepped over and
the brain, it's easy for thebrain to take a shortcut and
say, back to the bad boss. Thatbad boss did this to me, much
harder for the brain to take astep back and say, How did I
contribute to this breakdown?
What's my cause in the matter ofit? And that's really when we I
(17:47):
was just a podcast, and the guysaid, Tell me about the
evolution of your business. Andit wasn't always from the inside
out. It was we added from theinside out when so many people
were thinking they had nothingto do with the dysfunction, or
people would call me and say, wethink we need to fire John. John
(18:08):
is the problem. And you know,I'm like, it's never just John.
Man. We're all a family, andwe're all bringing in our
baggage.
Mick Spiers (18:20):
This is a really powerful takeaway,
already,Margie, so firstly, theInside Out has come out a few
times, and the words I'mscreaming in my head, how did I
contribute or perpetuate? Howdid I contribute or perpetuate
this situation? And you are, youare part of that situation. Then
everything else I heard from youin that last stanza was the
(18:42):
heart of emotional intelligence,to be able to get out of
autopilot and start noticing andnaming the emotion that you're
feeling. And all emotions areinformation. They're telling you
about a met or unmet need.
Positive emotions are about amet need. Negative emotions are
about an unmet need. So what isthis emotion? Why this emotion?
Why this emotion now? And if youcan do that, by the way, you're
(19:06):
going to get yourself out of theroot brain. You get yourself
into the limbic brain andpotentially to the to the
frontal cortex to start makingmore logical, rather than
reactionary, decisions. How doesthat sit with you, Margie?
Margaret Graziano (19:22):
I want to add one thing to what you said. It's
everything you said. And whatdoes this remind me of where
else felt it so this is a sillyexample, but I'm going to give
it to you. So when I get onstage, I get my hair and makeup
done, and I was doing a showcaseabout two months ago for a bunch
of speaking bureaus, and I gotmy hair done in Florida. And I
(19:46):
didn't know the woman, but shecertainly did not do my hair
like my hair is in all thepictures. She made these spiral
curls. And I looked at myself inthe mirror, and I was
devastated, and I had to bedownstairs in three. 30 minutes,
I looked like little orphan,Annie, like from Annie, it was
awful. And so I went and I didthe showcase, and I did okay,
(20:10):
but it was for a woman, her hairand makeup very important. If
she's on stage. Men might dosomething else, but I know for a
woman, it's like if you don'tfeel good about how you look, it
often can impact how youdeliver, especially on stage
when you're being judged andfilmed. So I was getting my hair
(20:31):
done at home in my ownterritory, with my own people,
and I was telling them thestory, and I said, I have a
little bit of PTSD because Ican't see you doing my hair.
Whatever you do, don't get methose curls. And then I thought
about it, and that moment, Iremembered back when I first got
a divorce, I went on a blue ofblack tie affair date. I had
(20:53):
this beautiful gown that hebought me, $1,000 Armani gown. I
would never spend that, but hebought it for me, and I took it
and wore it, and then I had myhair done, and she made me look
like tendril curls. That is notmy MO I looked ridiculous. I
opened the door and he saw me,and he laughed. Not good. I
(21:14):
stopped going out with him, butstill, and he saw it. I didn't
look well. Then I thought backmiddle school, I got my first
perm. Again, I look like LittleOrphan Annie. My mother worked
with me so hard to fix thatperm. We put so many chemicals
in my hair, it turned green, andI had to start my first day of
(21:34):
middle school with green hair.
So we have all this stuff thathappens in and I'm using a silly
example of hair, but still, atmy age now, I'm in a chair
someone I know is doing my hair,and I get the flash little
orphan. Annie, well, thathappens with bosses. That
happens with reports. It happenswith public speaking. It happens
(21:54):
with performance reviews, andmost people are not saying, what
does this remind me of? Talkedto because we were too
assertive, or we got talked tobecause we weren't assertive
(22:14):
enough, or we got talked tobecause we didn't deliver as
intended on something, or we hada bad hair day, and we bring
those things into the present,and it really does cause an
awful lot of friction betweenrelationships, because we're not
clean, we're not clear. We'reeach bringing in this past and
(22:37):
and sometimes when there'sfriction at work, it's not 250
year old adults, it's 2/8graders or 2/3 graders or two
teenagers. And people don'trealize that that's who's
showing up in the meeting untilthey reflect. So I think the
(23:00):
number one competency that Iwould say that everyone who
cares about culture and abouthappiness needs to focus on is
self awareness.
Mick Spiers (23:16):
All right, yeah, really good. So starting with
self awareness, I'm going toshare a little story with you,
Margie, and it takes intentionalaction to do what I'm about to
say. If I've had a disagreementwith someone, or I've sent an
email, and the email I get backis complete gobbledygook and
going, what on earth I have topurposely pause and delay and
(23:40):
go? Well, hang on a second. Whatcould I have done differently to
get a different result? Thatdoesn't mean that it's all me
and it doesn't mean that it'sall them, but my first step is
to think about, how did I showup? What could I have done
differently? Who did I show up?
Was it my eighth grader or wasit my 51 year old? I'm 51 now. I
think I'm wiser than my eighthgrader self, maybe sometimes,
(24:00):
but yeah, I'd need to take thatintentional act to self reflect.
How am I showing up, and whatcan I do differently to get a
different result, before I startlooking at the environment
around me and the other person,how does that sit with you, with
this inside out philosophy thatyou're sharing with us?
Margaret Graziano (24:21):
If we would all do that, we would be in much
better condition to have abetter experience at work. So
you know, the other thing thatis coming up for me right now is
somebody might be listening tothis saying, I like my job, I
like making good money, but Idon't really care about the
organization long term, becauseI'm only here for a few years.
(24:43):
But the question is, do you likeyour life, and do you want to go
home and be present and withyour family and with your
friends and not be alwaysstruggling with work? Because we
don't leave it at work, we drivehome and we take it in the house
with us. US, and the name of thegame is having agency, autonomy
(25:05):
and authority in all of life,and what that requires is to
reduce the friction at work.
Naturally. There's friction,there's challenges. The Internet
goes out, somebody forgets topay a bill or sign up for a
license, or a client changesdirection, or the new product
has a glitch in it, there'sthere's naturally friction that
(25:28):
will occur. So why add to it?
The cleaner we can be with eachother, and the cleaner we can
be, the quicker we can responsewith agility to what's needed
now. And that's this wholethematic body of work,
responsibility, which is what wedo when we're working with
(25:50):
individuals, teams andorganizations, is how do we
elevate the level ofresponsibility so that who's
solving the problem is present,equipped, aware and connected,
and takes action in accordancewith their own values and with
the values of the organization,and takes the kind of action
(26:12):
that doesn't createrepercussions downstream.
Because when we're in a state offrustration and we don't have
access to our prefrontal cortex,our executive brain, we come up
with solutions that often cause10 other problems downstream
because we have no access to ourwhole thinking, so we can't
(26:33):
think systemically when we arethinking through frustration or
fear.
Mick Spiers (26:40):
Yeah, really, really powerful motion here. So
starting with that, selfawareness for sure,
understanding where my emotionalstate is. Am I in my root brain,
or am I able to access thelimbic brain and the in the
frontal cortex to make sure thatI am thinking clearly? And one
of the things I think of hereis, am I reacting, or am I
responding? And if I'm always inreactionary mode. It's going to
(27:02):
be that root brain Fight, fight,flight or freeze reaction that
hasn't thought things throughclearly at all.
Margaret Graziano (27:10):
Well and can't it's not even it's not
like a bad and wrong. The brainhas been orchestrated to defend
you in trouble like a sabertoothed Tiger, defend you. So
all of your blood drains fromyour brain, goes to protect your
internal organs, puts likeinflammation to protect you. And
(27:35):
so you don't even have access.
You have no control over it, butwhat you do have control over is
learning to slow down. What youdo have control over is choosing
to practice mindfulness. Whatyou do have control over is self
awareness, but in the moment ofthe crisis that your amygdala
thinks you're in, you don't haveany of that control. You've lost
(27:58):
it.
Mick Spiers (28:00):
Yeah, really good.
All right. So we take a beat,maybe a few deep breaths. It can
take as little as six seconds tojust process, and then I'm going
to respond, not react. This isgoing to be a really key part of
it. Want to throw something toyou about the friction that's
come up a lot. Margie, so thisworks. This bounces off the work
of Timothy, go away. The authorof the book The inner game, and
(28:21):
his equation for performance is,performance is equal to
potential minus interference.
Oh, my God, that's so good. Andwe see so many businesses and
people work on their potential,but don't take the time to
remove the interference. Andguess what? There's a reason why
the his book is called the innergame. Most of the interference
(28:44):
is in here. It's in your brain.
It's about how you're perceivingwhat's going on around you. And
if we don't take that time toremove the friction, our full
potential can't be achieved. Howdoes that sit with you? With
your friction to flow thispotential, modest interference.
Margaret Graziano (29:02):
Totally. And I would say the interference is
it's personal and interpersonaland even team and
organizational, because justthink about your own family. You
live with somebody, you have away you interact with each
other. You've got interferencein your own head. They've got
interference in their own head.
Now they're interacting witheach other through that
(29:25):
interference. That's whatclearing the space is about.
That's what cleaning up isabout. And we do that in our
deep alignment, like we'll have.
We're starting at a level set ata ground zero, so we can begin
again, which is a coachingdistinction, and so I agree 100%
(29:45):
I wrote the book down. I think Icall it constraints, internal
and external constraints, but Ithink that we can point enough
data to that 40 or 50% ofpayroll costs. Are being spent
on interference rather thanperformance, which is why so
many people that run companiesare out of their mind aggravated
(30:10):
by performance, and they thinkit's mandating everybody come
back to work, which could help,because at least there's focus,
but if then there's a lot ofinterference in the office, then
you're going to have peoplesaying, I was way more
productive at home. And so Ithink the, you know, if we go
back to the 1960s when Ram Dassfirst started taking Eastern
(30:34):
philosophy through the UnitedStates and through the world,
that was when the inner gamebegan. That's when the birth of
the human potential movementblossomed. I mean, it was the
Ram Das movement, wrist for themill, and polishing the mirror
and all the other work that hedid. And then, I don't know if,
(30:57):
if you have an institute downthere, we have Esalen Institute,
which in the in the States, theysay, is the birthplace of the
human potential movement. Peoplelike Timothy Leary and ROM das
and Daniel Goldman, believe itor not, the guy who wrote the
book on EQ was in India with RamDass. They were all part of the
(31:19):
same cohort. They call him Dannyand, you know, Jack Kornfield
and all of those people got onthis, this mission to bring the
inner game into the world. Andthen in the 80s, it just got,
who needs that? We're on a raceto the moon. Who needs that
(31:40):
we're, you know, we've got tackand high tech and and now, I
think, because of AI and becauseof the battle for technological
supremacy, the inner game meansmore than anything, because
anything that can and will beautomated. And so what's left is
us. Daniel Pink talks about, inhis book to sell as human. He's
(32:04):
not really talking about sales.
He's talking about interacting.
He's talking about being withpeople. He's talking about
emotional quotient, and we'regoing to all need to be way
better at that when a third or afourth or 50% of our job can be
automated. What's left then it'swhat I bring. That's my
(32:26):
intuition, my innateintelligence that a machine does
not have, at least not yet, andmy insight, that's what a human
brings. So we all whether wethink we have friction at work
or not, we all want to becultivating this inside out
world.
Mick Spiers (32:46):
What you caught my attention with there Margie, was
the 40 to 50% inefficiency andfriction, which, for some
companies might be conservative.
By the way, what I was thinkingis many CEOs out there that
would think that they want toincrease productivity, and their
their first go to is, oh, weneed more people. Well, hang on
a second. You're not, you're notmaking the most of the people
that you've already got. You'renot tapping into their inner,
(33:08):
inner genius. And by the way, ifit's a, if it's a, let's say
it's a dysfunctional machinetoday, adding more interfaces
makes it even more complex. It'sactually going to grind it to a
halt.
Margaret Graziano (33:23):
Yeah, it's interesting that as coaches and
if, especially if you'reorganizational, like if you're
holistic thinking, and you'reyou've got good systems
judgment, you can see it. Somepeople in HR can see it, but
they lack the vernacular tocommunicate it in a way that can
be heard. But for most of thetime, my clients don't really
(33:46):
see it until we put them insimulations and they see how
much time they waste spinning.
It's this experiential spinningNess that has them see it. And
then we say, now add that, ifthere's 17 people in this room,
and you have 1500 employees, or500 employees, or 300 employees,
just imagine the payroll cost.
(34:10):
And then the eyes start and thenthen they start getting angry,
because you don't when you havea problem, like, that's like,
what do I do about it? It can befixed, but the last thing you
want to do is throw more peopleat the problem, because it just
adds the complexity and thechaos and and like what you just
said, If communication is roughbetween 20 people, with 20
(34:32):
people, there's something likefor for me and you, if we're
communicating, We have fouropportunities for a
miscommunication, I saysomething in a way that you
can't hear it. I hear what yousaid through my own filter. So
that's me bringing twomiscommunications. You bringing
(34:52):
two miscommunications becauseyou hear it differently and say
it differently. So with twopeople, there's four
opportunities formiscommunication. With five
people, it's double the amountof opportunities for
miscommunication, and then itscales from there, because
everybody's listening andspeaking on their own
vibrational level. And even thewords people use, I'll say, A,
(35:17):
B, C, D, E, and then I'll say tosomebody in the audience, what
did you hear? And they'll say,Z, X, W, 2, 4, 6.
Mick Spiers (35:27):
The world is full of examples of that Margie,
where people walk away from thesame conversation with a
completely differentunderstanding of what was just
said. And to get to your point,about the 17 people in the room,
and there's 500 people in theorganization, what do those 17
people do? They go off in theirown direction. And before you
know it, it has not justmultiplied, it's exponentially
(35:48):
multiplied.
Margaret Graziano (35:50):
And they go off in their own direction from
their own egoic perspective andtheir own past and all their own
projections and all their ownreflections, and for the most
part, these are good people. Theamount of evil doers in the
world is limited, at least rightnow. I think through history,
(36:12):
it's been limited. Most humanbeings want peace. They want
joy. They want happiness. Theywant people to collaborate. Most
people, they're not. They don'twake up in the morning and say,
How can I be evil today? Maybethere's a few of those people in
my country right now, but butfor the most part, I just don't
(36:33):
think the greater masses ofhumanity want to go to work and
create that kind of trouble.
Mick Spiers (36:39):
So before we hit record, Margie, you and I spoke
about the stat that only one infive people in the world truly
love their job and like theirboss. But I can tell you, both
bosses and employees and everylayer of the organization, very
few. There's probably a verysmall percentage of completely
narcissistic people. Very fewpeople turn up to work, going,
(37:00):
rubbing their hands, going, howcan I be a jerk today? It just
doesn't happen. Just doesn'thappen. And yet our mind gets
away on.
Margaret Graziano (37:09):
They don't know when, they don't know what
they don't know about theirimpact.
Mick Spiers (37:13):
Yeah, that's it.
That's exactly right. Okay, so Iwant to reflect on some of the
things we've covered so far.
I've got one more questionbefore we head to our closing
round. So everything I'm hearingtoday, this inside out concept,
is really grabbing hold of me,Margie, and thinking about when
you see something in someoneelse, first thing check, are you
(37:35):
is this reflection andprojection, or are you truly
objectively observing thebehavior of the other person.
Then stop and think about, howam I contributing to or
perpetuating this situation?
What role did I play to gethere? It's not them, it's us. So
you've played a role in how toget there, the self awareness,
(37:55):
the emotional intelligence tothink about, what am I feeling
now? Why am I feeling thatemotion? Why this emotion? Why
this emotion? Now? What is ittrying to tell me about a met or
unmet need? And now we can startbringing together some more
reasoned and critical thinkingto the situation where we stop
reacting and we start respondingbased upon what am I feeling.
(38:18):
And one of the really big onethat you shared, what is it
reminding me of as well to lookat is this bringing something up
from my past that I haven'tfully processed, that's going to
impact my judgment today? Theseare really powerful.
Margaret Graziano (38:35):
I want to share with you. So I don't know
if we could put this QR code inthe notes, the show notes, but
basically, this is a ebook ontransforming transforming
friction to flow. And there'stwo other steps in there, and
one of them is, you've got to bein this state of neutrality
(38:56):
before you jump to a conclusion.
And if you are hot under thecollar, or you know out of your
mind, or spinning out down thespiral, down to hopelessness,
you will never be objective. Youcan't be so you want to get
yourself at least to neutral, Itell my clients, just be like
the Buddha for one minute. Justbe neutral. A mountain is a
(39:21):
mountain. It doesn't think aboutbeing a mountain. It's not good
or bad. It's just a mountain.
That guy did what he did, and hejust did that. And then the you
were talking earlier aboutbreathing, we give people all
sorts of different processes toget themselves back to neutral
so they can take action. We sayit's 90 seconds. You have to be
(39:42):
really good to do it in fiveseconds. Really good to do it in
six seconds. But 90 secondsallows you to go through the
whole sculpt process, stop andact, understand, listen, process
and take action. Other things.
We didn't talk about and wewon't have time for today.
Connect to what? What am Iconnecting to? Well, some of the
(40:05):
cultivating work people need todo to master responsibility and
master having a healthy,intentional high performance
culture is creating a noblecause for the business and
creating an ultimate intent foryour life. It's why we're the
compass. It's why I have thecompass behind me. What's my
North Star? What is it about forme? Am I just going to work to
(40:28):
get a paycheck and deal with allthe crap all day long, so that I
can have the paycheck, so that Ican live life and then go back
to work and bring all myaggravation home? No, I'm
working as a vehicle tosomething that's important to me
in life, and we need to do thework before the 90 seconds or
six seconds or five seconds.
(40:51):
What am I working for? Why am Ihere? Why did I pick this job?
Why am I in this role? Why thiscompany? Otherwise we're like a
boat in the ocean with norudder, and we're at the affect
of all of the waves and the rainand the storms and the climate,
and we will all be at the effectof things some of the time. But
(41:13):
wouldn't it be awesome to be themaster of our own ship, 85 to
95% of the time to be awake andaware to what is and making
choices from our highest andbest self. Wouldn't we all want
that most of the time?
Mick Spiers (41:31):
Absolutely Margie and connecting to our why and to
our purpose, it becomes thatpoint of resilience, but it also
can help channel our energy inthe right direction. So part of
that check in with yourself isunderstanding, is this critical?
Is it on the path towards myNorth Star? I think that's a
powerful reflection as well.
Okay, so the final question Iwant to ask, let's say that the
(41:53):
person's done the inner work, sothey're starting to process more
clearly. Margie, they're doingthat. What role did I play in
this situation? They'veprocessed they're much more
clearer. They're coming fromneutrality. What then? So, yes,
we start with us, but then whenwe reconnect to the other person
that we might be having theconflict or friction with, how
(42:16):
do we then take the next steponce we've done that inner work.
Margaret Graziano (42:23):
So it's really good. So one of the
exercises that we have people dois imagine you at your highest
and best self. Picture yourselfhaving a conversation with this
person. From your intent, yourultimate intent, who you are,
what's important to your life?
Mine, for example, is people areliberated. It's why I do
(42:43):
everything I do. And I imaginemyself having a conversation
from that place and ex feel theexpansion of energy of me being
my highest and best having aconversation when I am
visualizing me having thatconversation, and I'm also
holding the space for whateverhas me hot under the collar or
(43:04):
aggravated or sad or upset oranxious or worried. I'm not
dismissing it. I'm notpretending it's not there. It's
there. I'm witnessing it from aplace of neutrality, but I'm
bringing in my highest and bestself, what would she do? What
would she say? She wouldn'tblame that guy. She would say
(43:26):
something like, I notice thatI'm suppressing around you and
that I'm getting aggravated. Canwe talk about what's in the way
here? Because there's a lot offriction, or you might in
visualizing your highest andbest self, you might say, oh, I
need to be curious with thatperson. Hey, I'm noticing we're
(43:49):
not clicking right now thereseems to be a lot of
aggravation. Am I doing orsaying something that is ticking
you off? Have I forgottensomething? Is there something I
said, or did that made you feelless than respected by me? I
mean, it's it's getting curious.
(44:10):
I there's not one thing I cansay, what I could what the
recipe I have and I coach to andin the the free ebook on turning
friction to flow or movingfriction to flow. It's getting
in your highest and best selfand asking yourself, what's the
next right move? What actionwould give me? Alignment with my
(44:33):
highest and best self, alignmentwith our noble cause, alignment
with my values, alignment withour company values, and then
you'll come up with all sorts ofdifferent actions, but you've
got to, and you've talked a lotabout it, and I have, you've got
to take responsibility for whereyou are now. Embody those
(44:54):
emotions, process, where didthey come from? What's going on?
Blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah,and then what do I want? And
then what's the next right thingto do? Being what I want, who I
want, what I'm committed to. Butmost of us don't take those 90
seconds. We just you pissed meoff. Boom, I'm gonna fight you.
(45:16):
You did this. You did that. Andthen we have, you know, a replay
of our relationship with one ofour siblings in the workplace or
with one of our parents.
Mick Spiers (45:24):
Yeah, and adding fuel to the fire. So really
powerful technique that I'mhearing there, Margie is a fly
on the wall or a balcony view ofthe conversation, but doing it
through the eyes of your highestand best self. So the person
that you would be most proud tobecome the person that you're
trying to become. What wouldthey do? That's a great that's a
(45:46):
great example.
Margaret Graziano (45:48):
Yeah. And my coach once told me, you know, in
coaching school, they do a lotabout the future self, who
you're becoming, and MichelleObama becoming. I have a coach
who's really powerful inontology, the study of being
human. She says, I'm tired ofhearing about your future self.
Your future self is who you arenow, who you declare you are
now. It's the highest and bestversion of you, moment by moment
(46:11):
by moment, we could pick to bethat highest and best version
and the highest version ofourself. We're not blaming,
we're not shaming. We aregenerating, we are giving, we
are contributing, we are livingin alignment. So what would that
person do now, here and now, andthat coach is cookie Boudreau,
(46:32):
and she's made such a differencefor me in my life, so I always
want to give her the kudoscookie deserves.
Mick Spiers (46:39):
Yeah, I love it.
All right, brilliant, Margie,you've given us so much to think
about today, a lot of personalreflection, and the Inside Out
philosophy is the one that I'mtaking away, for sure, and I
know that the audience, like, ifyou're listening to this right
now, the things that Margie istalking about, you can start
today. You can start with littlesteps today, to take some time,
to take a beat to take a fewdeep breaths, to process, to
(47:01):
start getting into response, notreaction. You can start taking
these things today and stop andthis external view of it's
always them. That's where westarted this conversation is
Margie was pointing her fingers,going, it was them, it was them.
What role did you play? Whatrole did you play. What did you
do here? Yeah, the fingerexercise. So on the video
(47:23):
podcast, Margie is holding upher fingers, and when you point
with one finger, three fingersare pointed back to you. So what
role did you play to contributeor perpetuate this situation? I
think if we start with that,then you got the building blocks
on how you can move forward. Allright, Margie, I want to take us
now to our our Rapid Round.
(47:43):
These are the same fourquestions we ask all of our
guests. So what's the one thingthat you know now? Margie
graziono, that you wish you knewwhen you were 20?
Margaret Graziano (47:53):
That I will always be a work in progress,
that there is no end game. Thereis no I got to the mountain. I'm
done, and that whenever there isfriction, I have a role in that.
I didn't I didn't get that untilI was 36.
Mick Spiers (48:12):
They're both very powerful and very aligned with
our conversation today as well.
Margie, thank you. What's yourfavorite book?
Margaret Graziano (48:19):
Right now? I do a lot of reading, and I have
different favorites at differenttimes, but right now, giving the
time we're living in, reclaimhigher ground by Lance secreten.
Secreten Creating organizationsthat inspire the Soul. And this
is a very influential book inhow I got started, how I got
(48:40):
into culture, I realized thatjust placing people in jobs,
while it is noble, gettingpeople work is noble. It wasn't
my soul's calling. My soul'scalling was once they're
together. How do we have themequipped to thrive? And I love
this book. Love it, love it.
Love it, love it.
Mick Spiers (49:00):
All right, brilliant. We haven't had that
one on the show, so it's a goodone to add to our list. Well
done. Thank you. What's yourfavorite quote?
Margaret Graziano (49:06):
My favorite quote is by Ram Dass, and this
is for this is for now, for thetimes we are in right now. Let's
trade in all our judging forappreciating. Let's lay down our
righteousness and just betogether, Ram Das.
Mick Spiers (49:24):
I love it. It's so powerful. I hadn't heard that
one either until now, but I lovethat quote. And finally, Margie,
how do people find you? Ifpeople are inspired by this work
and they want to do this insideout work and they want to ignite
culture in their organizations.
How do people get in contactwith you?
Margaret Graziano (49:43):
Well, Ignite culture, if what you want is for
teams and organizations, reallyget the book. It's on Audible.
It's hard copy, it's soft copy,and I think it's under $24 The
other way is through YouTube. Ihave two channels. One is ignite
culture. The other isresponsibility. So if you're if
(50:06):
you're more about leadership,when you might be because you're
on Mick podcast or listening,then that would be
responsibility. If you're aboutculture, then go to the Ignite
culture. My company website iskeenalignment.com and my
personal website ismargaretgraziano.com
Mick Spiers (50:24):
All right, so thank you so much, Margie. This has
been a wonderful conversation.
There's nuggets of goldthroughout. Thank you so much
for sharing your time and yourwisdom with us today.
Margaret Graziano (50:35):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Mick Spiers (50:38):
Thank you for joining us for this powerful
conversation with MargieGraziano, I hope it left you
thinking deeply about theculture you're creating, whether
by design or by default. Iftoday's episode sparks something
in you, I encourage you to pickup a copy of Ignite culture and
explore Margie frameworksfurther and remember this, the
(50:58):
culture you lead is a reflectionof the clarity, courage and care
you bring to the table each day.
In the next episode, I'll bediving into my own reflections
on the conversation with Margieand my own experience about how
to create a culture that you'dbe proud to lead.
(51:22):
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project
mickspiers.com a huge call outto Faris Sedek for his video
editing of all of our videocontent and to all of the team
at TLP. Joan Gozon, GeraldCalibo and my amazing wife Sei
Spiers, I could not do this showwithout you. Don't forget to
subscribe to The LeadershipProject YouTube channel, where
(51:44):
we bring you interesting videoseach and every week, and you can
follow us on social,particularly on LinkedIn,
Facebook and Instagram. Now, inthe meantime, please do take
care, look out for each otherand join us on this journey as
we learn together and leadtogether.
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