June 16, 2025 • 37 mins
What truly matters more in hiring—skills or character? Dave MacDonald, founder of Better Together Group, brings hard-earned wisdom to this age-old question. After being fired multiple times in his twenties ("I was a lousy employee"), Dave transformed these setbacks into powerful leadership lessons that now guide his successful HR and staffing business.
With refreshing honesty, Dave introduces us to his "WTF philosophy"—Work hard, Tell the truth, Finish the job—and explains how these principles shape his approach to identifying standout candidates. Through his powerful furnace metaphor, he demonstrates how the right combination of intensity (the fire), integrity (the firebox), and intentionality (the ductwork) creates teams that genuinely thrive together.
Beyond philosophical frameworks, Dave offers practical, immediately applicable interview techniques. Learn why asking for multiple examples of the same character trait reveals authenticity, how pattern interruption separates rehearsed answers from genuine responses, and when to prioritize filling a position versus waiting for the perfect candidate. His advice balances real-world business needs with the pursuit of character-driven cultures.
Perhaps most compelling is Dave's vulnerability about his own leadership journey. "I'm still very confident, but I'm also a scared little boy inside at times too," he admits, reminding us that authentic leadership requires acknowledging our full humanity. Whether you're hiring for your organization or preparing for your next career move, this conversation provides a fresh perspective on what truly matters in building successful teams.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick Spiers (00:01):
Have you ever hired someone with an impressive
resume only to discover theirvalues didn't align with your
team?
Or maybe you've wondered whattruly sets standout candidates
apart Is it talent or is itcharacter?
Today, we explore thesequestions and more with the
incredible Dave McDonald,founder and president of the
(00:24):
Better Together Group.
Dave is a bold and refreshinglyhonest leader who shares his
journey from being firedmultiple times in his 20s to
building a thriving,people-focused business.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Leadership Project.
I'm greatly honored today to bejoined by Dave McDonald.
Dave is the president andfounder of an organization
(00:46):
called the Better Together Group, an organization that brings
skilled people together to helpyou with hiring new people, with
payroll and with other HRservices.
And today we're going to talkquite a bit about that hiring
element how to hire people withcharacter, and I'm really
curious to see Dave'sperspectives on all of these
(01:06):
things.
What does it make to make areally good candidate that
stands out in terms of theirvalues and their character?
So, without any further ado,dave, I would love it if you
would say hello to the audienceand I'd love to hear a little
bit about your background andwhat inspired you to do the work
that you do today.
Dave MacDonald (01:26):
Nick, thank you so much for the invitation and
the opportunity.
I really appreciate being herewith you.
Yeah, I was a lousy employeeand got fired from a lot of good
jobs and I recognized, I guess,pretty early on, that I needed
to be self-employed.
I was part of a family businesswhen I was a child.
(01:47):
I was part of a family businessin my teens and eventually I
wanted to start my own familybusiness for my kids to be a
part of.
And so that combination ofworking in family businesses
with my grandparents and with myparents and those were mostly
side hustles but reallyenjoyable experiences and then
(02:09):
getting fired because I'm alousy employee meant that I
should start my own business andeventually that turned into a
Better Together group.
Mick Spiers (02:19):
Yeah, very good.
So tell me, what does a lousyemployee look like for Dave
McDonald?
Dave MacDonald (02:23):
Oh man.
So I was in my twenties and so,like most people in their
twenties, I thought I knew morethan I knew.
I was hyper confident, and oneof the things we say about the
McDonald clan is confident, butnot always correct, and so I
think I think that most peoplearen't always correct, but
(02:46):
sometimes we're so confident inthe way we say things.
People don't leave any room forus to be wrong, and I was
certainly that way in my 20s,and I needed to eat some humble
pie for a little while to growme into being an adult.
Mick Spiers (03:04):
Yeah, very good, okay.
So I love the self-awareness, Ilove the journey of discovery
of yourself.
I'm going to say there, dave, Ialso like this element you got
there around family business.
I think that will resonate witha lot of people.
What I'm curious to know is whyBetter Together?
Why that business?
Dave MacDonald (03:22):
Okay, so Better Together Group is an
amalgamation of three separateemployment agencies and it just
became cumbersome to talk aboutrevolution staffing and help,
unlimited and essential staffing, and so we rebranded them into
the Better Together group.
We had purchased one of ourfiercest competitors, help
(03:43):
Unlimited.
And when my first day that Imet with that group as a team, I
was like guys, we're doing thisbecause I believe that we can
all be better together, and thatjust naturally flowed out of my
mouth and became the new brand.
Mick Spiers (04:00):
Yeah, really good.
Okay, so hiring decisions arereally.
They can be make or break formany businesses, particularly in
small businesses.
It probably becomes even moreacute.
I want to start with one whichis about sometimes we see hiring
managers in a rush.
They've got a vacant positionand there's a sense of urgency
(04:22):
to fill it, but that sense ofurgency might come to the point
of rushing a decision that theymight regret later.
What's your philosophy in termsof speed versus taking the time
to get the right fit for theright role?
Dave MacDonald (04:36):
Yeah, I think you can end up in paralysis on
both sides of that.
Someone much smarter than mesaid fire fast, hire slow.
I'm not good at firing fast, Ifire too slow, without a doubt,
and I just believe in people.
You can't own an employmentagency and not believe in people
.
I really love people and wantto help people achieve more than
(05:00):
they can even dream ofthemselves.
It's really part of my personalpassion is to help people
achieve more than theyanticipate out of themselves.
But then, secondly, when itcomes to that hiring thing,
there's a balance to like.
Some people talk to me about theconcept of, you know, grabbing
(05:21):
the closest tool instead of theright tool.
And so often in hiringdecisions, particularly in small
, medium-sized businesses,people reach for someone they
know, or reach for somebody thatthey trust, or reach for
somebody that's close so thatthey can fill the gap really
quickly, and I think thatthere's a lot of.
(05:43):
There should be pause in thattype of mindset, because
sometimes, when you need ascrewdriver, you end up with a
hammer, and putting a screw inthe wall with a hammer is never
a good idea.
Equally, putting a nail in thewall with a screwdriver is not a
good idea.
And so finding the right toolfor the job is super important.
Mick Spiers (06:05):
Yeah, right, tool for the job is super important.
Yeah, right, tool for the job.
I like what you're saying thereabout some balance.
If you take forever, you mightactually be losing good
candidates.
If you take too long in theprocess, the candidates get
frustrated.
But equally, if you rush thedecision and I'm going to throw
this to you, dave statementswill be made that oh, I don't
have time.
I don't have time and I'm goingto say that you don't have time
(06:27):
not to do the process well,because you're going to pay for
the consequences later.
If you make the wrong decisionon someone that's not the right
tool for the right job and theright fit, you end up paying for
the consequences in the longrun anyway.
Yeah.
Dave MacDonald (06:43):
I don't know what the current stats are, but
I've heard it said frequentlythat the cost of a bad hire is
between 50% and 100% of aperson's salary, and so you have
to be mindful of hiring theright people, and so quick hires
(07:03):
often run into the wrong hire.
But there's also a spot whereyou end up and we see this with
the clients all the time wherethey're having a loss of
opportunity by not hiring thebest available candidate, and so
I'm a big proponent for hiringthe best available candidate
(07:25):
when you need them, as opposedto looking for perfection.
My daughter says all the time,perfection paralyzes the process
, and so that's you can't lookfor perfection.
No one is perfect, no one willbe perfect.
But then also, by not fillingthe seat, what is your cost
every day by not filling therole?
(07:47):
And that's where you have toreally make a business decision
about what's best for you.
If it costs you $100 a day notto fill the seat, you can go a
bunch of days.
If it costs you $50,000 a daynot to fill the seat, you really
need to make a decision.
Mick Spiers (08:06):
Yeah, really liking the balance.
So the next one I want to gotowards and this is going to be
at the heart of our conversationtoday, and it's an age-old
dilemma that a lot of peoplecome with and that is employing
for skills versus employing forcharacter, and this is what we
were talking about before, andeven the balance between hard
(08:27):
skills versus I don't even likethis term, dave, but soft skills
.
It's a well-used term, buthere's the hint soft skills are
not soft and they're not easybut the difference between human
skills and people skills versusthe hard skills of doing the
job, this is a dilemma thathiring managers face every day.
So what is your guidance tobreak through that?
Dave MacDonald (08:50):
Well, unfortunately, it depends on
where you are in theorganization, right, and so in
certain roles I would suggestthat doctors always hire for
skill, particularly surgeons, atleast my surgeons.
If you want really soft skilledsurgeons, you can have those,
but I want somebody who's goodwith a knife.
(09:11):
But for other roles, the skillscan be quickly learned and
quickly achieved, and so thenyou definitely want to hire for
character, and I think that asan organization, you should
always put character beforeskills.
But knowing how hot to turn upthe temperature on the skill set
(09:35):
is super important, dependingon the role, like I just said
about surgeons and secretaries.
Mick Spiers (09:44):
Yeah, really good.
I'm going to extrapolate on thebit that you used as doctors,
because for a lot of people theymight feel a little bit out of
reach.
But let's be a bit flippanthere for a second and go are you
going to hire a pilot purelyfor character?
Have you ever flown an AirbusA380 before?
No, no, but I've got goodcharacter, right.
That person's not going to flya plane, are they right?
(10:07):
But I could even break thatdown to CNC machinists.
You're not going to employ aCNC machinist that doesn't know
how to run a CNC machine, Right?
So so, yeah, Okay, so theskills are important.
Dave MacDonald (10:19):
The skills are important, but not as important
as character.
In my mind, care you know whatare they?
Character eats strategy forbreakfast, isn't that?
Is that Drucker who said that?
Mick Spiers (10:34):
Drucker was a culture eats strategy for
breakfast.
But culture is built on thecharacters of the individuals.
Dave MacDonald (10:40):
Culture is character.
Like your company, cultureneeds to be the backbone of your
character analysis.
Mick Spiers (10:50):
Yeah, good, all right, so let me put it to you
this way then.
So for many jobs, the hardskills are going to be table
stakes.
If they don't have the hardskills, they don't get a ticket
to the dance.
And then from here we need totalk about and whether they've
got the ability to find thoseskills in, let's say, in a job
where you got some time, wherethey can learn on the job to get
(11:10):
there.
Not all jobs fit that situation, but let's say the hard skills
are table stakes, and thencharacter is now going to be
what sets them apart.
How does that sit with you?
Dave MacDonald (11:21):
Yeah, I would totally agree that the hard
skills are required for the job,but you have to be realistic
about them.
Are you ever going to find acandidate that's 10 out of 10 on
all of the hard skills, andwhat ones are you willing to?
You know what I?
We hire a lot of truck driversand in Canada what we used to
(11:43):
find this is much less the casenow.
But as you would get close tothe summer weekends, hiring
criteria would diminish becausethey needed to get liquor to
cottage country and groceries tocottage country and everything
to where summer happened inCanada, and so there's different
(12:03):
times of the year.
I was just talking to a guy whoowns a toy company yesterday.
He told me that 90% of toyshipments hit the seas in June,
july and like that's of thewhole manufacturing year.
Most of them are shipped in a60-day window.
Mick Spiers (12:25):
Yeah, right, understood.
So, in terms of the seasonalityand the urgency there, also not
looking for the 10 out of 10.
I think that's the key messagethere Look at the best available
candidate for the role and thensee who can bridge the gap.
I'm going to take a smalltangent here, because this is
something I've seen in my careera number of times.
Dave, what impact do you thinkand I'm talking to everyone in
(12:48):
the audience here to listen tothis what impact do you think
that can have on what candidatesyou get applying in the first
place?
Because I've seen with my owneyes, dave people in my own
family fit in two categorieshere.
Even in my close circle, I cantell you this that there will be
some people that look at a jobadvert with 10 criteria and if
(13:08):
they don't meet all 10, theydon't apply and they've just
missed a great opportunity.
I've got other people in myfamily that would loosely get
close to four or five of thecriteria and then back
themselves to learn the rest andthey'll apply.
So does it skew the pool ofapplicants that you get and how
(13:29):
do we fix that?
Dave MacDonald (13:31):
With AI taking such a significant role in
creating applications forcandidates, I'm not sure how we
fix it.
We have people every day thatare working at a variety and
applying for a variety store,selling lotto tickets, applying
for jobs as CNC operators, andit's a massive time waster for
(13:52):
everyone.
I think that I really respectyour family members that you
know hardly qualify for the four, that they're reaching for
something that is better forthem.
Like I said, I really aspire tohelp people achieve more than
they think they can, and so I'mhappy for them to take a step
out like that, but they need tobe honest about the process and
(14:13):
where they're at in the process.
They say, hey, you know, Irecognize I'm not necessarily
the best candidate for this on apaper, but I think when you
meet me you'll find my characterand my determination to be
better is going to make me anamazing candidate for you, and
so I'd love to talk.
So coming front loading, thatis super important in the
(14:35):
application process.
Mick Spiers (14:37):
So really, really good.
So I like that advice for thepeople at the overconfident end
of the scale Just be honest andauthentic in the process.
And for the ones that are notapplying unless they meet every
criteria, push yourself, get outthere.
Dave MacDonald (14:52):
Give it a shot, man Like.
The reality is that, and Irecognize that for people that
and you may not get this from me, but I have insecurity issues
of my own, and that's okay.
We need to be overcomers inevery aspect of our life.
Just reach for it and don'tagain.
(15:14):
Perfection paralyzes thepursuit of good things and
process, and so you can'tparalyze that process by trying
to check every box every time.
Mick Spiers (15:26):
Yeah, very good.
Okay, all right.
Let's pivot back to hiringmanagers now and let's get to
the heart of our conversation,which is hiring for character.
What are we looking for here?
What does character mean to you, dave McDonald?
Dave MacDonald (15:38):
Sure, well, like I mentioned earlier, I think
that character should stem fromyour company culture, and so our
company culture is built arounda WTF philosophy, and that
might not mean what you think itmeans, but we, we talk a lot
about work hard, tell the truthand finish the job, and so those
(16:00):
, those are that our wtfphilosophy.
So, out of that, the characterthat I'm looking for in people
is intensity, integrity andintentionality.
Mick Spiers (16:13):
Integrity and intentionality, yeah, really
good.
There's a key, important stephere, then, dave, where you're
tapping into what is yourcompany's culture first.
So it's not just oh, I want toemploy someone that's got great
values.
It's what is our companyculture, what are we trying to
(16:33):
build here?
What does good look like, whatdoes great look like, and then
transforming it into what am Inow looking for in the candidate
?
Dave MacDonald (16:41):
Yeah, One of the things I think about, Mick, is
that when you do it based onyour own preference of what good
character looks like that's avariable between every hiring
manager in the building and whenyou start with your corporate
culture, defining thecharacteristics that you want,
(17:01):
then you can get to a moreconsistent grading on what your
characters, what characterqualities are important to you
as an organization.
Mick Spiers (17:16):
Yeah, really good, and I'm going to put it.
I'll just use the two extremeshere.
I'm going to say that theculture of a Wall Street trading
platform and a day trader or atrading company would be very
different to a company that's anenvironmental activist, for
example, and what we're lookingfor is people that are going to
match the values and the cultureof the group so that when the
(17:38):
person arrives, there's not ahuge mismatch of he's a square
peg in a round hole from acultural point of view.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Dave MacDonald (17:47):
Yeah, I think that that's true, that those two
companies, depending on theownership group like I deal with
mostly family-owned businesses,but also with you know just
their corporate chosen structureand what the vision of the
board is could be the exact samepriorities, right?
(18:08):
So, like in the environmentalactive protection group, you're
going to want people that havestrong character, that are
steadfast, that are clear aboutwhat they believe and they are
really working towards the samegoal On Wall Street.
You're going to want to havepeople that are very convicted
(18:30):
about right and wrong and thatthey don't cross that line, and
you're going to want to havepeople that are driven, but
you're going to want that in theenvironmental group as well,
you want people that are drivenfor a task, and so it's
different ways of shaving it.
It really does depend on theownership structure and what the
ownership group or managementboard or board of directors want
(18:51):
.
Mick Spiers (18:52):
Yeah, really good, and I like yours.
The WTF, and yes, it could bevery easy for people to jump to
a conclusion there, but the workhard, tell the truth, finish
the job really powerful, Talk usthrough the three.
I's again.
What do these mean to you?
Dave MacDonald (19:06):
Sure.
So what I would say is thereare variation on the WTF and
maybe a little bit more acceptedin conference rooms than the
WTF would be.
But if you, the way I think ofit is like a furnace, okay, and
intensity is super important.
In my business I need peoplethat bring it every day and are
(19:28):
really hard chasers.
You have to chase the clientsto get responses for the
candidates.
You have to chase thecandidates to get the paperwork
done right.
You have to really be on top ofthings, and so intensity is
really important to us.
But intensity is like the firein the furnace, and fire in a
furnace is great and reallyimportant, because you're cold
(19:50):
if you don't have it right, butfire alone can turn into an
awful thing and burn down thewhole house, and so you want to
be careful about that, thatyou're not just intense, that
you also have thischaracteristic of being
intentional, that you're processdriven, that you're checking
all the boxes, that you're doingthings not just the right way
(20:12):
but in the right order, theright way, and so that's super
important to us, and I considerthe process or that
intentionality to be the ductwork that runs the heat out to
the various parts of the homeand gets the right heat in the
right room at the right time.
Does that make sense to you?
Mick Spiers (20:31):
Yeah, it does, and I can see how the three come
together.
So the intensity is the fire,but the intentionality is the
focus of where you're going toapply that intensity.
And then the integrity is doesit have the right I'm going to
say boundaries of understandingwhat's?
Dave MacDonald (20:51):
It's the firebox .
Mick Spiers (20:52):
Yeah.
Dave MacDonald (20:53):
It's what contains the fire, so you don't
end up with your house burning.
Mick Spiers (20:58):
Burning the house down.
Yeah, yeah, nice one.
Yeah, I really like themetaphor.
Now, how do we bring that tolife, either in the
pre-screening process or theinterview process?
How am I testing for thesethings, dave?
Dave MacDonald (21:12):
Yeah, you're asking questions that people
aren't accustomed to.
So you know, yeah, you can asklike tell me about a time where
you know you were really ampedup about something and you just
really felt your intensityburning away at you.
And people have a story andthey should have a story.
(21:32):
People should be able toarticulate a time where, you
know, in their workplace theyhad a project that was super
important to them and theyburned the extra, the extra oil,
they stayed late at night, theycame in early, they worked
through their meals, whatever itwas that exemplified their
intensity in that moment.
They could even talk about, youknow, an emotional outburst at
(21:55):
work when, where they were likeman, I was just so frustrated
and I lost it with a coworker.
Those are all signs ofintensity and they're not bad.
But then it's drilling down intothose experiences with the
people, you know, starting withjust simple questions like tell
me more about that.
That's really interesting to me.
Oh, I really liked it.
(22:16):
I'd like to know more, I'd liketo understand better.
It's never allowing it to stopafter the first question.
And you know, in sales theytalk often about when you're
talking to a client who hasacknowledged that they have a
problem, you want to get to thesource of the direct impact on
(22:36):
them, of the pain related to theproblem and if you don't make
that personal connection, it'sreally hard to get through.
And I think it's the same whenyou're interviewing people you
need to get to how thatpersonally impacted them and why
that was so important to them.
Does that make sense?
Mick Spiers (22:55):
Yeah, really good.
So there's two elements I'mtaking away there, dave.
First one was the power ofscenarios and storytelling,
really, and telling people toshare real experiences of where
this has happened, so they don'tjust give you an academic
textbook answer of where thishas happened.
So they don't just give you anacademic textbook answer.
And then the second part is thecuriosity to dig in and see the
substance behind it.
(23:16):
I'll give an example of onethat I use, dave.
So when I ask tell me about thebiggest mistake that you've
made in your career, first ofall it's a bit of a red flag if
they can't think of one, becauseeveryone makes mistakes.
And then my follow-on questionsare things like it might be
about the substance, but thenI'll be asking so what did you
learn from that and what wouldyou do differently next time?
(23:38):
Or how has it shaped the waythat you show up today?
Dave MacDonald (23:42):
so I'm not just looking for the storytelling,
I'm looking for the substancebehind the story yeah, and I
would encourage you, mick, evenwhen they give you a good story
like that, to say, hey, can yougive me another example?
Because so often they'reinterview prepped for a bunch of
questions and it's like, oh,that's really interesting, I
(24:03):
really appreciate you sharing.
That was very vulnerable of youto give me that and I want to
appreciate that from the person,because vulnerability is hard
to give.
It's them actually respectingyou in a way that needs to be
appreciated, in my opinion.
But then when you drill downfor a second or a third
experience like that, thatreally helps you.
Mick Spiers (24:25):
Yeah, that's a good one.
I like that a lot because theymight have expected that
question.
They might have expected thethe what's the biggest mistake
you've made in your career?
Question.
So they got a pre-canned answerthat they rehearsed.
There might be more gold in thesecond time that you ask.
Give me another example.
Yeah, that's really powerful,dave.
I like that.
All right, that may also be atip for what I want to ask next.
(24:45):
I want to explore a little bitaround confirmation bias here,
dave, on two elements, in factprobably three.
One is where you get thisfeeling that the applicant
they're searching, they'retrying to tell you what you want
to hear.
They're not really answeringthe question.
They're trying to read yourbody language, they're trying to
(25:06):
give you the answer that youwant to hear and then on the
receiving side, they starthearing what they want to hear.
How do we get through to makesure that there's a legitimate,
genuine connection here, thatwe've got authenticity in the
process?
Dave MacDonald (25:23):
Wow, this is a little bit uncomfortable, but
what I would say is if you don'tfeel like they're getting it in
the question, cut them off.
Cut them off early.
Don't let that go 15 or 30seconds.
If the question that they'reanswering isn't the question
that you wanted them to answer,pattern, interrupt by breaking
(25:48):
in and say I'm sorry, I don'tthink we're on the right track
and I really want to give youevery opportunity to be
successful, and so let's startthat question again.
I'll restate it and then I'dlike you to tell me what you
heard and then give me youranswer.
Does that make sense?
Mick Spiers (26:07):
Yeah, I like this.
I really like this.
This is a powerful one.
This is a good one for theaudience.
So the example I'm talkingabout I see this a lot.
I do a lot of interviews, dave,and what I see is applicants go
on a fishing exercise, so theinterviewer is asked a question
and they start word salad, butwhat they're doing is watching
(26:28):
the body language of theinterviewer.
Ah, okay, here's the gold.
When they see the body languageshift, or whatever they go,
okay, that's it.
And then they follow, butthey're not giving a genuine
answer at this point.
They're just telling you whatyou want to hear.
I love that you're interruptingthe pattern and, second, I love
that you're asking them what'syour understanding of what I
(26:49):
asked?
That's a powerful approach tomake sure that there's not a
misunderstanding of what thequestion was, let alone the
answer.
Dave MacDonald (26:58):
Do you want to know how I learned that?
Mick Spiers (27:00):
Yeah, please.
Dave MacDonald (27:02):
Fighting with my wife.
I love it.
I've been married for 34 yearsI think, I don't know, it'll be
34 years this September and solike I've got a great thing
going on.
I really do.
I love my wife.
It's a great thing.
She's amazing and patient withme.
But one of the things that welearned really early on was it's
(27:24):
not just enough, in adiscussion or specifically in a
disagreement, to state your case.
You have to give the otherperson the opportunity to
restate what they heard you say,so that you catch the disparity
when you're passionate andthey're passionate, when you're
(27:44):
nervous and they're nervous.
It's equally important in aninterview, because you want to
give a person permission to say,hey, I'm not sure what happened
there, I got that mixed up, andI would encourage you to open
your initial interviews withstatements like that Like, look,
this is a conversation, we'rejust really here to have a
(28:07):
coffee together, virtually.
I don't want you to feel superjudged.
Obviously, I'm evaluating you,you're evaluating virtually.
I don't want you to feel superjudged.
Obviously, I'm evaluating you,you're evaluating me.
I don't want to hide from that.
But let's feel free tointerrupt each other if there's
a confusion or if there'ssomething that's just not making
sense.
So bring the level ofcamaraderie up and the level of
(28:30):
I'm scrutinizing you way down.
Mick Spiers (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's powerful in both
directions.
I think it's mutuallybeneficial.
What you're talking about, thisinterrupt and this confirmation
A it'll stop that word saladapproach of the person just
trying to tell you what you wantto hear.
And B it'll reduce the riskthat the interviewer walks away
with a perception of oh, that,dave, he didn't even understand
(28:56):
the question.
Well, interrupt and say hang ona second and I'm going to put
it back onto the intervieweesposition here as well, dave for
them to interrupt and say oh,hang on a second, dave.
I'm not sure I quite got thequestion.
Are you asking?
Like you can do it too?
The interviewer doesn't.
Dave MacDonald (29:13):
Absolutely.
It needs to be a two-way streetand that needs to be clear in
the opening conversation.
Mick Spiers (29:19):
Yeah, really good.
Okay, now, how do we then dothe post-processing?
So you've got your characterthat you're looking for.
You've got your values and yourculture that you're looking for
, dave, work hard, tell thetruth, finish the job intensity,
integrity and intentionality.
When you've finished theinterviews, let's say that you
shortlisted five applicants andyou're sitting down with the
(29:42):
other people in the interviewpanel.
How are you going to grade them?
How are you going to pick theone that stood out?
Dave MacDonald (29:48):
interview panel.
How are you going to grade them?
How are you going to pick theone that stood out?
Well, I think that's where youhave to measure them against the
hard skills and you have tohave them listed and say, okay,
here it's a five out of five ora four out of five, or you got
to measure those things and say,I think that overall they're
(30:08):
capable of doing the job.
And these are the areas where Iwould be concerned and these
were the areas where I'd bereally confident.
And then, secondly, you need toalways be talking about
workplace culture and you know,measuring them to your workplace
culture and and thecharacteristics that come out of
that.
And again, I would like thosethings are harder to number
(30:29):
because it's much more based onyour observations and really
your gut feel than it is inanything that they say.
But I think that you'll findthat the more you do it, the
more you talk about it.
You just give them a rating onculture and character and I
think you're good.
Mick Spiers (30:46):
Yeah, brilliant, dave, all right.
Well, thank you so much.
I've you're good.
Yeah, brilliant, dave, Allright.
Well, thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed this.
I want to summarize a little bitsome of the things that we've
discussed and then take us toour rapid round.
So, yes, okay, hard skills needto be the ticket for the dance.
You can't ignore those.
You can't employ someone in ahighly skilled job if they don't
either have the skills or the,or the pathway that will allow
(31:08):
them to acquire the skills in atimeframe that suits you and the
business.
Then, once we get beyond that,we're employing for character.
So, thinking about the cultureof the organization, what does
it mean to work here?
What is the culture and howdoes the character that we're
looking for in the individualfit into that culture?
(31:28):
Dave's, it's about work hard,tell the truth, finish the job.
It's about intensity, integrityand intentionality.
You need to know what yours are, what are you looking for, and
then you can use the interviewto draw that out, draw it out
through experiences.
I get, as Dave said, if someonegives you the first answer, go
(31:49):
oh, can you give me anotherexample to make sure it's not
just the pre-rehearsed answerand then get curious to unpack
what it really means.
And that's what's going toenable you to make better hiring
decisions.
And if you make a good hiringdecision, you will never regret
it.
You don't want the opposite.
You don't want the opposite.
You don't want the opposite.
All right, dave, this has beenreally interesting.
Dave MacDonald (32:11):
You will have the opposite, and then you have
to be prepared to act on it.
Mick Spiers (32:15):
Oh, that's true as well, which is the fire fast If
it really doesn't work out,that's okay too.
Dave MacDonald (32:21):
Just own it and admit it.
Mick Spiers (32:23):
Yeah, don't let it dwell.
Yeah, very good, all right,thank you so much, dave.
I'm going to take us to ourrapid round now.
These are the same fourquestions that we ask all of our
guests.
So what's the one thing youknow now, dave McDonald, that
you wish you knew when you were20?
Dave MacDonald (32:38):
I'm not all that and a bag of chips, I think you
know.
Just my overconfidence in my20s was problematic and I had a
chip on my shoulder that I wastrying to prove and I think, the
more comfortable I became withmyself.
I'm still very confident, butI'm also a scared little boy
(32:59):
inside at times too and I can't.
I can't get away from those twothings.
So I think it's really justabout you know being
authentically who you are andowning that and not being afraid
to talk about it, becauseactually everyone is a scared
little boy or girl inside and weneed to help them draw out and
(33:19):
be welcome and accepted in theworkplace, whomever they are.
Mick Spiers (33:24):
There's so many layers to that answer, david.
It's really good.
I'm going to let the audienceunpack that themselves.
If you need to replay that bit,replay it, because that's a lot
of people's lived experience.
All right, what's your favoritebook, dave?
Dave MacDonald (33:37):
Favorite business book would be probably
I'm still I'm a Patrick Lencionifan.
They're short, they're easy toread, they've got enough
storyline to them, plus the realbusiness theory that helps me
apply it.
Um.
So that would be ideal teamplayer by patrick glencioni all
(33:58):
right, very, very good.
Mick Spiers (34:00):
And what is your favorite quote?
Dave MacDonald (34:03):
oh, I've got a couple of them.
I was actually just shared thisquote with someone today, and
it comes from the Bible.
It comes from Philippians.
It says let your reasonablenessbe known to all men, and for me
, I can be a bit of a tyrant attimes, and so it's just a good
(34:27):
reminder to humble yourself andlet your reasonableness be known
to all men.
I also love Zig Ziglar, andwhen Zig Ziglar said, if you
help enough other people getwhat they want out of life,
you'll have lots for yourself,that's a go-to for me.
Mick Spiers (34:38):
Yeah, very good, okay, and finally, how do people
find you, dave?
If people are listening to thisand they have their own
challenges aligned with hiring,with HR, with payroll, with all
of the things that BetterTogether do, how do people find
you?
Dave MacDonald (34:53):
Sure, probably the easiest way to find me is
dave at bettertogethergroupcom,or our website is
bettertogethergroupcom.
My daughter and I also have apodcast where we talk about
these types of things, andthat's actually called
WTFtalkswork.
Mick Spiers (35:13):
Yeah, brilliant, all right, thank you so much,
dave.
I really enjoyed ourconversation today.
You've given the audience somevery actionable things that they
can do in their next hiringjourney, whether they are the
candidate or whether they arethe hiring manager.
You've given people some goodingredients on how they can make
better decisions.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom with us today.
Dave MacDonald (35:36):
Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate the time.
Mick Spiers (35:39):
What a powerful and honest conversation with Dave
McDonald.
I loved his vulnerability insharing how his own missteps
helped him grow into the leaderhe is today and his philosophy
that we are better together.
It isn't just a catchy brandname, it's a leadership mindset.
From the importance of hiringfor character to the role of
(35:59):
humility in personal growth,dave gave us many lessons to
reflect on.
He reminded us that confidencewithout awareness can be
dangerous and that the bestteams are built on shared values
, not just skills.
If this episode made youreflect on how you hire, how you
lead or how you grow, thenshare a comment with us, so we'd
(36:20):
love to hear from you.
And remember that leadership isnot about title or position.
It's about your ability toinspire people into meaningful
action around a worthy cause,bringing the right people
together with the right valuesand a common purpose where you
can have a true impact on theworld.
In the next episode, we're goingto be joined by Michael Lopez,
(36:42):
who is an expert intransformational change, and
he's going to introduce us tosome science-backed strategies
on how we can impact change inour organizations.
Thank you for listening to theLeadership Project at
mickspearscom.
A huge call out to Faris Sadekfor his video editing.
(37:03):
Of all of our video content andto all of the team at TLP all
of our video content and to allof the team at TLP.
Joanne goes on, gerald Calaboand my amazing wife Say Spears.
I could not do this showwithout you.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Leadership Project YouTube
channel, where we bring youinteresting videos each and
every week, and you can followus on social, particularly on
(37:24):
LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
Now, in the meantime, please dotake care, look out for each
other and join us on thisjourney as we learn together and
lead together.
Have you ever hired someone with an impressive
resume only to discover theirvalues didn't align with your
team?
Or maybe you've wondered whattruly sets standout candidates
apart Is it talent or is itcharacter?
Today, we explore thesequestions and more with the
incredible Dave McDonald,founder and president of the
(00:24):
Better Together Group.
Dave is a bold and refreshinglyhonest leader who shares his
journey from being firedmultiple times in his 20s to
building a thriving,people-focused business.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Leadership Project.
I'm greatly honored today to bejoined by Dave McDonald.
Dave is the president andfounder of an organization
(00:46):
called the Better Together Group, an organization that brings
skilled people together to helpyou with hiring new people, with
payroll and with other HRservices.
And today we're going to talkquite a bit about that hiring
element how to hire people withcharacter, and I'm really
curious to see Dave'sperspectives on all of these
(01:06):
things.
What does it make to make areally good candidate that
stands out in terms of theirvalues and their character?
So, without any further ado,dave, I would love it if you
would say hello to the audienceand I'd love to hear a little
bit about your background andwhat inspired you to do the work
that you do today.
Dave MacDonald (01:26):
Nick, thank you so much for the invitation and
the opportunity.
I really appreciate being herewith you.
Yeah, I was a lousy employeeand got fired from a lot of good
jobs and I recognized, I guess,pretty early on, that I needed
to be self-employed.
I was part of a family businesswhen I was a child.
(01:47):
I was part of a family businessin my teens and eventually I
wanted to start my own familybusiness for my kids to be a
part of.
And so that combination ofworking in family businesses
with my grandparents and with myparents and those were mostly
side hustles but reallyenjoyable experiences and then
(02:09):
getting fired because I'm alousy employee meant that I
should start my own business andeventually that turned into a
Better Together group.
Mick Spiers (02:19):
Yeah, very good.
So tell me, what does a lousyemployee look like for Dave
McDonald?
Dave MacDonald (02:23):
Oh man.
So I was in my twenties and so,like most people in their
twenties, I thought I knew morethan I knew.
I was hyper confident, and oneof the things we say about the
McDonald clan is confident, butnot always correct, and so I
think I think that most peoplearen't always correct, but
(02:46):
sometimes we're so confident inthe way we say things.
People don't leave any room forus to be wrong, and I was
certainly that way in my 20s,and I needed to eat some humble
pie for a little while to growme into being an adult.
Mick Spiers (03:04):
Yeah, very good, okay.
So I love the self-awareness, Ilove the journey of discovery
of yourself.
I'm going to say there, dave, Ialso like this element you got
there around family business.
I think that will resonate witha lot of people.
What I'm curious to know is whyBetter Together?
Why that business?
Dave MacDonald (03:22):
Okay, so Better Together Group is an
amalgamation of three separateemployment agencies and it just
became cumbersome to talk aboutrevolution staffing and help,
unlimited and essential staffing, and so we rebranded them into
the Better Together group.
We had purchased one of ourfiercest competitors, help
(03:43):
Unlimited.
And when my first day that Imet with that group as a team, I
was like guys, we're doing thisbecause I believe that we can
all be better together, and thatjust naturally flowed out of my
mouth and became the new brand.
Mick Spiers (04:00):
Yeah, really good.
Okay, so hiring decisions arereally.
They can be make or break formany businesses, particularly in
small businesses.
It probably becomes even moreacute.
I want to start with one whichis about sometimes we see hiring
managers in a rush.
They've got a vacant positionand there's a sense of urgency
(04:22):
to fill it, but that sense ofurgency might come to the point
of rushing a decision that theymight regret later.
What's your philosophy in termsof speed versus taking the time
to get the right fit for theright role?
Dave MacDonald (04:36):
Yeah, I think you can end up in paralysis on
both sides of that.
Someone much smarter than mesaid fire fast, hire slow.
I'm not good at firing fast, Ifire too slow, without a doubt,
and I just believe in people.
You can't own an employmentagency and not believe in people
.
I really love people and wantto help people achieve more than
(05:00):
they can even dream ofthemselves.
It's really part of my personalpassion is to help people
achieve more than theyanticipate out of themselves.
But then, secondly, when itcomes to that hiring thing,
there's a balance to like.
Some people talk to me about theconcept of, you know, grabbing
(05:21):
the closest tool instead of theright tool.
And so often in hiringdecisions, particularly in small
, medium-sized businesses,people reach for someone they
know, or reach for somebody thatthey trust, or reach for
somebody that's close so thatthey can fill the gap really
quickly, and I think thatthere's a lot of.
(05:43):
There should be pause in thattype of mindset, because
sometimes, when you need ascrewdriver, you end up with a
hammer, and putting a screw inthe wall with a hammer is never
a good idea.
Equally, putting a nail in thewall with a screwdriver is not a
good idea.
And so finding the right toolfor the job is super important.
Mick Spiers (06:05):
Yeah, right, tool for the job is super important.
Yeah, right, tool for the job.
I like what you're saying thereabout some balance.
If you take forever, you mightactually be losing good
candidates.
If you take too long in theprocess, the candidates get
frustrated.
But equally, if you rush thedecision and I'm going to throw
this to you, dave statementswill be made that oh, I don't
have time.
I don't have time and I'm goingto say that you don't have time
(06:27):
not to do the process well,because you're going to pay for
the consequences later.
If you make the wrong decisionon someone that's not the right
tool for the right job and theright fit, you end up paying for
the consequences in the longrun anyway.
Yeah.
Dave MacDonald (06:43):
I don't know what the current stats are, but
I've heard it said frequentlythat the cost of a bad hire is
between 50% and 100% of aperson's salary, and so you have
to be mindful of hiring theright people, and so quick hires
(07:03):
often run into the wrong hire.
But there's also a spot whereyou end up and we see this with
the clients all the time wherethey're having a loss of
opportunity by not hiring thebest available candidate, and so
I'm a big proponent for hiringthe best available candidate
(07:25):
when you need them, as opposedto looking for perfection.
My daughter says all the time,perfection paralyzes the process
, and so that's you can't lookfor perfection.
No one is perfect, no one willbe perfect.
But then also, by not fillingthe seat, what is your cost
every day by not filling therole?
(07:47):
And that's where you have toreally make a business decision
about what's best for you.
If it costs you $100 a day notto fill the seat, you can go a
bunch of days.
If it costs you $50,000 a daynot to fill the seat, you really
need to make a decision.
Mick Spiers (08:06):
Yeah, really liking the balance.
So the next one I want to gotowards and this is going to be
at the heart of our conversationtoday, and it's an age-old
dilemma that a lot of peoplecome with and that is employing
for skills versus employing forcharacter, and this is what we
were talking about before, andeven the balance between hard
(08:27):
skills versus I don't even likethis term, dave, but soft skills
.
It's a well-used term, buthere's the hint soft skills are
not soft and they're not easybut the difference between human
skills and people skills versusthe hard skills of doing the
job, this is a dilemma thathiring managers face every day.
So what is your guidance tobreak through that?
Dave MacDonald (08:50):
Well, unfortunately, it depends on
where you are in theorganization, right, and so in
certain roles I would suggestthat doctors always hire for
skill, particularly surgeons, atleast my surgeons.
If you want really soft skilledsurgeons, you can have those,
but I want somebody who's goodwith a knife.
(09:11):
But for other roles, the skillscan be quickly learned and
quickly achieved, and so thenyou definitely want to hire for
character, and I think that asan organization, you should
always put character beforeskills.
But knowing how hot to turn upthe temperature on the skill set
(09:35):
is super important, dependingon the role, like I just said
about surgeons and secretaries.
Mick Spiers (09:44):
Yeah, really good.
I'm going to extrapolate on thebit that you used as doctors,
because for a lot of people theymight feel a little bit out of
reach.
But let's be a bit flippanthere for a second and go are you
going to hire a pilot purelyfor character?
Have you ever flown an AirbusA380 before?
No, no, but I've got goodcharacter, right.
That person's not going to flya plane, are they right?
(10:07):
But I could even break thatdown to CNC machinists.
You're not going to employ aCNC machinist that doesn't know
how to run a CNC machine, Right?
So so, yeah, Okay, so theskills are important.
Dave MacDonald (10:19):
The skills are important, but not as important
as character.
In my mind, care you know whatare they?
Character eats strategy forbreakfast, isn't that?
Is that Drucker who said that?
Mick Spiers (10:34):
Drucker was a culture eats strategy for
breakfast.
But culture is built on thecharacters of the individuals.
Dave MacDonald (10:40):
Culture is character.
Like your company, cultureneeds to be the backbone of your
character analysis.
Mick Spiers (10:50):
Yeah, good, all right, so let me put it to you
this way then.
So for many jobs, the hardskills are going to be table
stakes.
If they don't have the hardskills, they don't get a ticket
to the dance.
And then from here we need totalk about and whether they've
got the ability to find thoseskills in, let's say, in a job
where you got some time, wherethey can learn on the job to get
(11:10):
there.
Not all jobs fit that situation, but let's say the hard skills
are table stakes, and thencharacter is now going to be
what sets them apart.
How does that sit with you?
Dave MacDonald (11:21):
Yeah, I would totally agree that the hard
skills are required for the job,but you have to be realistic
about them.
Are you ever going to find acandidate that's 10 out of 10 on
all of the hard skills, andwhat ones are you willing to?
You know what I?
We hire a lot of truck driversand in Canada what we used to
(11:43):
find this is much less the casenow.
But as you would get close tothe summer weekends, hiring
criteria would diminish becausethey needed to get liquor to
cottage country and groceries tocottage country and everything
to where summer happened inCanada, and so there's different
(12:03):
times of the year.
I was just talking to a guy whoowns a toy company yesterday.
He told me that 90% of toyshipments hit the seas in June,
july and like that's of thewhole manufacturing year.
Most of them are shipped in a60-day window.
Mick Spiers (12:25):
Yeah, right, understood.
So, in terms of the seasonalityand the urgency there, also not
looking for the 10 out of 10.
I think that's the key messagethere Look at the best available
candidate for the role and thensee who can bridge the gap.
I'm going to take a smalltangent here, because this is
something I've seen in my careera number of times.
Dave, what impact do you thinkand I'm talking to everyone in
(12:48):
the audience here to listen tothis what impact do you think
that can have on what candidatesyou get applying in the first
place?
Because I've seen with my owneyes, dave people in my own
family fit in two categorieshere.
Even in my close circle, I cantell you this that there will be
some people that look at a jobadvert with 10 criteria and if
(13:08):
they don't meet all 10, theydon't apply and they've just
missed a great opportunity.
I've got other people in myfamily that would loosely get
close to four or five of thecriteria and then back
themselves to learn the rest andthey'll apply.
So does it skew the pool ofapplicants that you get and how
(13:29):
do we fix that?
Dave MacDonald (13:31):
With AI taking such a significant role in
creating applications forcandidates, I'm not sure how we
fix it.
We have people every day thatare working at a variety and
applying for a variety store,selling lotto tickets, applying
for jobs as CNC operators, andit's a massive time waster for
(13:52):
everyone.
I think that I really respectyour family members that you
know hardly qualify for the four, that they're reaching for
something that is better forthem.
Like I said, I really aspire tohelp people achieve more than
they think they can, and so I'mhappy for them to take a step
out like that, but they need tobe honest about the process and
(14:13):
where they're at in the process.
They say, hey, you know, Irecognize I'm not necessarily
the best candidate for this on apaper, but I think when you
meet me you'll find my characterand my determination to be
better is going to make me anamazing candidate for you, and
so I'd love to talk.
So coming front loading, thatis super important in the
(14:35):
application process.
Mick Spiers (14:37):
So really, really good.
So I like that advice for thepeople at the overconfident end
of the scale Just be honest andauthentic in the process.
And for the ones that are notapplying unless they meet every
criteria, push yourself, get outthere.
Dave MacDonald (14:52):
Give it a shot, man Like.
The reality is that, and Irecognize that for people that
and you may not get this from me, but I have insecurity issues
of my own, and that's okay.
We need to be overcomers inevery aspect of our life.
Just reach for it and don'tagain.
(15:14):
Perfection paralyzes thepursuit of good things and
process, and so you can'tparalyze that process by trying
to check every box every time.
Mick Spiers (15:26):
Yeah, very good.
Okay, all right.
Let's pivot back to hiringmanagers now and let's get to
the heart of our conversation,which is hiring for character.
What are we looking for here?
What does character mean to you, dave McDonald?
Dave MacDonald (15:38):
Sure, well, like I mentioned earlier, I think
that character should stem fromyour company culture, and so our
company culture is built arounda WTF philosophy, and that
might not mean what you think itmeans, but we, we talk a lot
about work hard, tell the truthand finish the job, and so those
(16:00):
, those are that our wtfphilosophy.
So, out of that, the characterthat I'm looking for in people
is intensity, integrity andintentionality.
Mick Spiers (16:13):
Integrity and intentionality, yeah, really
good.
There's a key, important stephere, then, dave, where you're
tapping into what is yourcompany's culture first.
So it's not just oh, I want toemploy someone that's got great
values.
It's what is our companyculture, what are we trying to
(16:33):
build here?
What does good look like, whatdoes great look like, and then
transforming it into what am Inow looking for in the candidate
?
Dave MacDonald (16:41):
Yeah, One of the things I think about, Mick, is
that when you do it based onyour own preference of what good
character looks like that's avariable between every hiring
manager in the building and whenyou start with your corporate
culture, defining thecharacteristics that you want,
(17:01):
then you can get to a moreconsistent grading on what your
characters, what characterqualities are important to you
as an organization.
Mick Spiers (17:16):
Yeah, really good, and I'm going to put it.
I'll just use the two extremeshere.
I'm going to say that theculture of a Wall Street trading
platform and a day trader or atrading company would be very
different to a company that's anenvironmental activist, for
example, and what we're lookingfor is people that are going to
match the values and the cultureof the group so that when the
(17:38):
person arrives, there's not ahuge mismatch of he's a square
peg in a round hole from acultural point of view.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Dave MacDonald (17:47):
Yeah, I think that that's true, that those two
companies, depending on theownership group like I deal with
mostly family-owned businesses,but also with you know just
their corporate chosen structureand what the vision of the
board is could be the exact samepriorities, right?
(18:08):
So, like in the environmentalactive protection group, you're
going to want people that havestrong character, that are
steadfast, that are clear aboutwhat they believe and they are
really working towards the samegoal On Wall Street.
You're going to want to havepeople that are very convicted
(18:30):
about right and wrong and thatthey don't cross that line, and
you're going to want to havepeople that are driven, but
you're going to want that in theenvironmental group as well,
you want people that are drivenfor a task, and so it's
different ways of shaving it.
It really does depend on theownership structure and what the
ownership group or managementboard or board of directors want
(18:51):
.
Mick Spiers (18:52):
Yeah, really good, and I like yours.
The WTF, and yes, it could bevery easy for people to jump to
a conclusion there, but the workhard, tell the truth, finish
the job really powerful, Talk usthrough the three.
I's again.
What do these mean to you?
Dave MacDonald (19:06):
Sure.
So what I would say is thereare variation on the WTF and
maybe a little bit more acceptedin conference rooms than the
WTF would be.
But if you, the way I think ofit is like a furnace, okay, and
intensity is super important.
In my business I need peoplethat bring it every day and are
(19:28):
really hard chasers.
You have to chase the clientsto get responses for the
candidates.
You have to chase thecandidates to get the paperwork
done right.
You have to really be on top ofthings, and so intensity is
really important to us.
But intensity is like the firein the furnace, and fire in a
furnace is great and reallyimportant, because you're cold
(19:50):
if you don't have it right, butfire alone can turn into an
awful thing and burn down thewhole house, and so you want to
be careful about that, thatyou're not just intense, that
you also have thischaracteristic of being
intentional, that you're processdriven, that you're checking
all the boxes, that you're doingthings not just the right way
(20:12):
but in the right order, theright way, and so that's super
important to us, and I considerthe process or that
intentionality to be the ductwork that runs the heat out to
the various parts of the homeand gets the right heat in the
right room at the right time.
Does that make sense to you?
Mick Spiers (20:31):
Yeah, it does, and I can see how the three come
together.
So the intensity is the fire,but the intentionality is the
focus of where you're going toapply that intensity.
And then the integrity is doesit have the right I'm going to
say boundaries of understandingwhat's?
Dave MacDonald (20:51):
It's the firebox .
Mick Spiers (20:52):
Yeah.
Dave MacDonald (20:53):
It's what contains the fire, so you don't
end up with your house burning.
Mick Spiers (20:58):
Burning the house down.
Yeah, yeah, nice one.
Yeah, I really like themetaphor.
Now, how do we bring that tolife, either in the
pre-screening process or theinterview process?
How am I testing for thesethings, dave?
Dave MacDonald (21:12):
Yeah, you're asking questions that people
aren't accustomed to.
So you know, yeah, you can asklike tell me about a time where
you know you were really ampedup about something and you just
really felt your intensityburning away at you.
And people have a story andthey should have a story.
(21:32):
People should be able toarticulate a time where, you
know, in their workplace theyhad a project that was super
important to them and theyburned the extra, the extra oil,
they stayed late at night, theycame in early, they worked
through their meals, whatever itwas that exemplified their
intensity in that moment.
They could even talk about, youknow, an emotional outburst at
(21:55):
work when, where they were likeman, I was just so frustrated
and I lost it with a coworker.
Those are all signs ofintensity and they're not bad.
But then it's drilling down intothose experiences with the
people, you know, starting withjust simple questions like tell
me more about that.
That's really interesting to me.
Oh, I really liked it.
(22:16):
I'd like to know more, I'd liketo understand better.
It's never allowing it to stopafter the first question.
And you know, in sales theytalk often about when you're
talking to a client who hasacknowledged that they have a
problem, you want to get to thesource of the direct impact on
(22:36):
them, of the pain related to theproblem and if you don't make
that personal connection, it'sreally hard to get through.
And I think it's the same whenyou're interviewing people you
need to get to how thatpersonally impacted them and why
that was so important to them.
Does that make sense?
Mick Spiers (22:55):
Yeah, really good.
So there's two elements I'mtaking away there, dave.
First one was the power ofscenarios and storytelling,
really, and telling people toshare real experiences of where
this has happened, so they don'tjust give you an academic
textbook answer of where thishas happened.
So they don't just give you anacademic textbook answer.
And then the second part is thecuriosity to dig in and see the
substance behind it.
(23:16):
I'll give an example of onethat I use, dave.
So when I ask tell me about thebiggest mistake that you've
made in your career, first ofall it's a bit of a red flag if
they can't think of one, becauseeveryone makes mistakes.
And then my follow-on questionsare things like it might be
about the substance, but thenI'll be asking so what did you
learn from that and what wouldyou do differently next time?
(23:38):
Or how has it shaped the waythat you show up today?
Dave MacDonald (23:42):
so I'm not just looking for the storytelling,
I'm looking for the substancebehind the story yeah, and I
would encourage you, mick, evenwhen they give you a good story
like that, to say, hey, can yougive me another example?
Because so often they'reinterview prepped for a bunch of
questions and it's like, oh,that's really interesting, I
(24:03):
really appreciate you sharing.
That was very vulnerable of youto give me that and I want to
appreciate that from the person,because vulnerability is hard
to give.
It's them actually respectingyou in a way that needs to be
appreciated, in my opinion.
But then when you drill downfor a second or a third
experience like that, thatreally helps you.
Mick Spiers (24:25):
Yeah, that's a good one.
I like that a lot because theymight have expected that
question.
They might have expected thethe what's the biggest mistake
you've made in your career?
Question.
So they got a pre-canned answerthat they rehearsed.
There might be more gold in thesecond time that you ask.
Give me another example.
Yeah, that's really powerful,dave.
I like that.
All right, that may also be atip for what I want to ask next.
(24:45):
I want to explore a little bitaround confirmation bias here,
dave, on two elements, in factprobably three.
One is where you get thisfeeling that the applicant
they're searching, they'retrying to tell you what you want
to hear.
They're not really answeringthe question.
They're trying to read yourbody language, they're trying to
(25:06):
give you the answer that youwant to hear and then on the
receiving side, they starthearing what they want to hear.
How do we get through to makesure that there's a legitimate,
genuine connection here, thatwe've got authenticity in the
process?
Dave MacDonald (25:23):
Wow, this is a little bit uncomfortable, but
what I would say is if you don'tfeel like they're getting it in
the question, cut them off.
Cut them off early.
Don't let that go 15 or 30seconds.
If the question that they'reanswering isn't the question
that you wanted them to answer,pattern, interrupt by breaking
(25:48):
in and say I'm sorry, I don'tthink we're on the right track
and I really want to give youevery opportunity to be
successful, and so let's startthat question again.
I'll restate it and then I'dlike you to tell me what you
heard and then give me youranswer.
Does that make sense?
Mick Spiers (26:07):
Yeah, I like this.
I really like this.
This is a powerful one.
This is a good one for theaudience.
So the example I'm talkingabout I see this a lot.
I do a lot of interviews, dave,and what I see is applicants go
on a fishing exercise, so theinterviewer is asked a question
and they start word salad, butwhat they're doing is watching
(26:28):
the body language of theinterviewer.
Ah, okay, here's the gold.
When they see the body languageshift, or whatever they go,
okay, that's it.
And then they follow, butthey're not giving a genuine
answer at this point.
They're just telling you whatyou want to hear.
I love that you're interruptingthe pattern and, second, I love
that you're asking them what'syour understanding of what I
(26:49):
asked?
That's a powerful approach tomake sure that there's not a
misunderstanding of what thequestion was, let alone the
answer.
Dave MacDonald (26:58):
Do you want to know how I learned that?
Mick Spiers (27:00):
Yeah, please.
Dave MacDonald (27:02):
Fighting with my wife.
I love it.
I've been married for 34 yearsI think, I don't know, it'll be
34 years this September and solike I've got a great thing
going on.
I really do.
I love my wife.
It's a great thing.
She's amazing and patient withme.
But one of the things that welearned really early on was it's
(27:24):
not just enough, in adiscussion or specifically in a
disagreement, to state your case.
You have to give the otherperson the opportunity to
restate what they heard you say,so that you catch the disparity
when you're passionate andthey're passionate, when you're
(27:44):
nervous and they're nervous.
It's equally important in aninterview, because you want to
give a person permission to say,hey, I'm not sure what happened
there, I got that mixed up, andI would encourage you to open
your initial interviews withstatements like that Like, look,
this is a conversation, we'rejust really here to have a
(28:07):
coffee together, virtually.
I don't want you to feel superjudged.
Obviously, I'm evaluating you,you're evaluating virtually.
I don't want you to feel superjudged.
Obviously, I'm evaluating you,you're evaluating me.
I don't want to hide from that.
But let's feel free tointerrupt each other if there's
a confusion or if there'ssomething that's just not making
sense.
So bring the level ofcamaraderie up and the level of
(28:30):
I'm scrutinizing you way down.
Mick Spiers (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's powerful in both
directions.
I think it's mutuallybeneficial.
What you're talking about, thisinterrupt and this confirmation
A it'll stop that word saladapproach of the person just
trying to tell you what you wantto hear.
And B it'll reduce the riskthat the interviewer walks away
with a perception of oh, that,dave, he didn't even understand
(28:56):
the question.
Well, interrupt and say hang ona second and I'm going to put
it back onto the intervieweesposition here as well, dave for
them to interrupt and say oh,hang on a second, dave.
I'm not sure I quite got thequestion.
Are you asking?
Like you can do it too?
The interviewer doesn't.
Dave MacDonald (29:13):
Absolutely.
It needs to be a two-way streetand that needs to be clear in
the opening conversation.
Mick Spiers (29:19):
Yeah, really good.
Okay, now, how do we then dothe post-processing?
So you've got your characterthat you're looking for.
You've got your values and yourculture that you're looking for
, dave, work hard, tell thetruth, finish the job intensity,
integrity and intentionality.
When you've finished theinterviews, let's say that you
shortlisted five applicants andyou're sitting down with the
(29:42):
other people in the interviewpanel.
How are you going to grade them?
How are you going to pick theone that stood out?
Dave MacDonald (29:48):
interview panel.
How are you going to grade them?
How are you going to pick theone that stood out?
Well, I think that's where youhave to measure them against the
hard skills and you have tohave them listed and say, okay,
here it's a five out of five ora four out of five, or you got
to measure those things and say,I think that overall they're
(30:08):
capable of doing the job.
And these are the areas where Iwould be concerned and these
were the areas where I'd bereally confident.
And then, secondly, you need toalways be talking about
workplace culture and you know,measuring them to your workplace
culture and and thecharacteristics that come out of
that.
And again, I would like thosethings are harder to number
(30:29):
because it's much more based onyour observations and really
your gut feel than it is inanything that they say.
But I think that you'll findthat the more you do it, the
more you talk about it.
You just give them a rating onculture and character and I
think you're good.
Mick Spiers (30:46):
Yeah, brilliant, dave, all right.
Well, thank you so much.
I've you're good.
Yeah, brilliant, dave, Allright.
Well, thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed this.
I want to summarize a little bitsome of the things that we've
discussed and then take us toour rapid round.
So, yes, okay, hard skills needto be the ticket for the dance.
You can't ignore those.
You can't employ someone in ahighly skilled job if they don't
either have the skills or the,or the pathway that will allow
(31:08):
them to acquire the skills in atimeframe that suits you and the
business.
Then, once we get beyond that,we're employing for character.
So, thinking about the cultureof the organization, what does
it mean to work here?
What is the culture and howdoes the character that we're
looking for in the individualfit into that culture?
(31:28):
Dave's, it's about work hard,tell the truth, finish the job.
It's about intensity, integrityand intentionality.
You need to know what yours are, what are you looking for, and
then you can use the interviewto draw that out, draw it out
through experiences.
I get, as Dave said, if someonegives you the first answer, go
(31:49):
oh, can you give me anotherexample to make sure it's not
just the pre-rehearsed answerand then get curious to unpack
what it really means.
And that's what's going toenable you to make better hiring
decisions.
And if you make a good hiringdecision, you will never regret
it.
You don't want the opposite.
You don't want the opposite.
You don't want the opposite.
All right, dave, this has beenreally interesting.
Dave MacDonald (32:11):
You will have the opposite, and then you have
to be prepared to act on it.
Mick Spiers (32:15):
Oh, that's true as well, which is the fire fast If
it really doesn't work out,that's okay too.
Dave MacDonald (32:21):
Just own it and admit it.
Mick Spiers (32:23):
Yeah, don't let it dwell.
Yeah, very good, all right,thank you so much, dave.
I'm going to take us to ourrapid round now.
These are the same fourquestions that we ask all of our
guests.
So what's the one thing youknow now, dave McDonald, that
you wish you knew when you were20?
Dave MacDonald (32:38):
I'm not all that and a bag of chips, I think you
know.
Just my overconfidence in my20s was problematic and I had a
chip on my shoulder that I wastrying to prove and I think, the
more comfortable I became withmyself.
I'm still very confident, butI'm also a scared little boy
(32:59):
inside at times too and I can't.
I can't get away from those twothings.
So I think it's really justabout you know being
authentically who you are andowning that and not being afraid
to talk about it, becauseactually everyone is a scared
little boy or girl inside and weneed to help them draw out and
(33:19):
be welcome and accepted in theworkplace, whomever they are.
Mick Spiers (33:24):
There's so many layers to that answer, david.
It's really good.
I'm going to let the audienceunpack that themselves.
If you need to replay that bit,replay it, because that's a lot
of people's lived experience.
All right, what's your favoritebook, dave?
Dave MacDonald (33:37):
Favorite business book would be probably
I'm still I'm a Patrick Lencionifan.
They're short, they're easy toread, they've got enough
storyline to them, plus the realbusiness theory that helps me
apply it.
Um.
So that would be ideal teamplayer by patrick glencioni all
(33:58):
right, very, very good.
Mick Spiers (34:00):
And what is your favorite quote?
Dave MacDonald (34:03):
oh, I've got a couple of them.
I was actually just shared thisquote with someone today, and
it comes from the Bible.
It comes from Philippians.
It says let your reasonablenessbe known to all men, and for me
, I can be a bit of a tyrant attimes, and so it's just a good
(34:27):
reminder to humble yourself andlet your reasonableness be known
to all men.
I also love Zig Ziglar, andwhen Zig Ziglar said, if you
help enough other people getwhat they want out of life,
you'll have lots for yourself,that's a go-to for me.
Mick Spiers (34:38):
Yeah, very good, okay, and finally, how do people
find you, dave?
If people are listening to thisand they have their own
challenges aligned with hiring,with HR, with payroll, with all
of the things that BetterTogether do, how do people find
you?
Dave MacDonald (34:53):
Sure, probably the easiest way to find me is
dave at bettertogethergroupcom,or our website is
bettertogethergroupcom.
My daughter and I also have apodcast where we talk about
these types of things, andthat's actually called
WTFtalkswork.
Mick Spiers (35:13):
Yeah, brilliant, all right, thank you so much,
dave.
I really enjoyed ourconversation today.
You've given the audience somevery actionable things that they
can do in their next hiringjourney, whether they are the
candidate or whether they arethe hiring manager.
You've given people some goodingredients on how they can make
better decisions.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom with us today.
Dave MacDonald (35:36):
Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate the time.
Mick Spiers (35:39):
What a powerful and honest conversation with Dave
McDonald.
I loved his vulnerability insharing how his own missteps
helped him grow into the leaderhe is today and his philosophy
that we are better together.
It isn't just a catchy brandname, it's a leadership mindset.
From the importance of hiringfor character to the role of
(35:59):
humility in personal growth,dave gave us many lessons to
reflect on.
He reminded us that confidencewithout awareness can be
dangerous and that the bestteams are built on shared values
, not just skills.
If this episode made youreflect on how you hire, how you
lead or how you grow, thenshare a comment with us, so we'd
(36:20):
love to hear from you.
And remember that leadership isnot about title or position.
It's about your ability toinspire people into meaningful
action around a worthy cause,bringing the right people
together with the right valuesand a common purpose where you
can have a true impact on theworld.
In the next episode, we're goingto be joined by Michael Lopez,
(36:42):
who is an expert intransformational change, and
he's going to introduce us tosome science-backed strategies
on how we can impact change inour organizations.
Thank you for listening to theLeadership Project at
mickspearscom.
A huge call out to Faris Sadekfor his video editing.
(37:03):
Of all of our video content andto all of the team at TLP all
of our video content and to allof the team at TLP.
Joanne goes on, gerald Calaboand my amazing wife Say Spears.
I could not do this showwithout you.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Leadership Project YouTube
channel, where we bring youinteresting videos each and
every week, and you can followus on social, particularly on
(37:24):
LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
Now, in the meantime, please dotake care, look out for each
other and join us on thisjourney as we learn together and
lead together.
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