June 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Why do most transformation efforts fail, even when people are deeply committed? In this thought-provoking episode of The Leadership Project, Michael Lopez, transformation coach and author of Change, unpacks the science behind why change is so hard and what we’ve been getting wrong all along. With over 20 years of experience helping organizations navigate complex change, Lopez challenges the conventional, rational-only approach and introduces six brain-based strategies to make change stick, both personally and systemically.
Rather than focusing on willpower or generic frameworks, Lopez dives into the biology of transformation. He explains how the brain and body respond to change as a perceived threat, which often sabotages even our best intentions. Using real-world examples, including a remarkable case where a failing nuclear plant climbed from the bottom 10 percent to top 10 percent performance in just a year, he reveals how aligning change efforts with our neurobiology unlocks lasting results. His framework begins with understanding what's really going on, fostering individual ownership, and building a movement rather than enforcing compliance.
The episode also flips popular beliefs on stress and failure. Lopez makes a compelling case that stress, when properly framed, is not the enemy but a key ingredient for growth. He unpacks how challenge strengthens the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that helps us overcome difficulty. From building new habits to transforming entire teams, you’ll walk away with a practical, science-backed blueprint to navigate change effectively and sustainably. Whether you're leading others or leading yourself, this is a must-listen.
🌐 Connect with Michael:
• Website: https://www.michaeljlopez.coach/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-j-lopez9/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michaeljlopez9/
📚 You can purchase Michael's book on Amazon:
• CHANGE: https://www.amazon.com/dp/195501874X/
✅ Follow The Leadership Project on your favourite podcast platform and listen to a new episode every week!
📝 Don’t forget to share your thoughts on the episode in the comments below.
🔔 Join us in our mission at The Leadership Project and learn more about our organisation here: https://linktr.ee/mickspiers
📕 You can purchase a copy of the Mick Spiers bestselling book "You're a Leader, Now What?" as an eBook or paperback at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09ZBKK8XV
If you would like a signed copy, please reach out to sei@mickspiers.com and we can arrange it for you too.
If you're thinking about starting a podcast or upgrading your hosting, Buzzsprout is a great option! This link will give both of us a $20 credit when you upgrade:
👉 https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=1701891
Create forms easily with Jotform! Sign up with my link: https://www.jotform.com/?referral=AkWimLxOBz
Get extra Dropbox space—sign up with my link: Dropbox Referral Link
Wise Referral link: https://wise.com/invite/dic/michaels11434
...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick Spiers (00:01):
What really stops us from changing ourselves, our
teams, our organisations?
Is it a lack of willpower or amisunderstanding of how humans
actually respond to change at abiological level?
And what if we could unlocktransformation by working with
our brain and our body, insteadof against them?
(00:24):
Today, we are joined by thebrilliant Michael Lopez, a
transformation coach, changeexpert and author of the book
Six Science-Backed Strategies toTransform Your Brain, Your Body
and Your Behaviour.
We're going to discuss whychange initiatives fail, even
with good intentions, how tomove from resistance and fear to
(00:45):
curiosity and adaptability, andwhy leaders must go first in
modeling vulnerability in change.
This conversation is full ofinsights, honesty and actionable
advice on how you can reframehow you think about change.
So grab a pen, take some notesand get ready to transform the
(01:06):
way you lead.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project.
I'm greatly honored today tobe joined by Michael Lopez.
Michael is a coach who helpsorganizations, companies, teams
and individuals to elevate theirperformance through
transformation.
Change can be scary, but it'ssomething that is with us every
(01:27):
single day, and that's what ourfocus is going to be today.
It's going to be about changeand transformation.
Michael is also the author of abook called Change Six
Science-Backed Strategies toTransform your Brain, your Body
and your Behavior, so I'm reallyinterested to hear Michael's
perspective here.
(01:48):
It's something that we're allfaced with every day and if we
can lean into it, we can getamazing results.
So, Michael, without anyfurther ado, I'd love to hear
from you.
I'd love to know a little bitmore about your background and
what particularly inspired youto do the work that you do to
help individuals, companies andteams around change and
(02:08):
transformation?
Michael Lopez (02:09):
Yeah, thanks, Mick.
It's great to be here with you,thanks for having me on and
really do enjoy the opportunityto talk about all the ways in
which we try to change.
Really there's many layers toit, but I think the most recent
one.
You know, I spent two decadesin big consulting helping
companies of all types try tochange in different ways whether
(02:30):
it's culture, operations,strategy, you name it and what I
found was a lot of thetechniques and methods that we
were using to try to createchange in individuals really
just simply weren't working, andit wasn't because they weren't
well-intentioned, hardworkingpeople trying to drive and
create compelling experiencesfor people and companies.
(02:55):
I think we lost our way when itcomes to understanding what's
happening to us at themicroscopic level when we try to
change, and the more weunderstand what's going on
internally, the more we canleverage those systems and
structures to start toaccomplish our goals, because,
at the end of the day, change isa personal experience.
(03:17):
The only person you can changeis you.
The only person you can everchange is you, and so I just
felt like we needed a differentconversation and a new set of
tools inside these largercompanies to be able to help
really create the outcomes thatwe wanted.
I'll add another piece, which isI spent my life as an athlete.
I played high school football,I played college football, I
(03:39):
coach still on a football teamand I use strategies.
We know so much about the bodyin terms of driving athletic
team and you know I was.
I use strategies, we know somuch about the body in terms of
driving athletic performance,and yet I thought we'd show up
into the office and forget allof those strategies.
So you know, the most recentexperience might've been what I
was going through as aconsultant, but my heritage as a
coach and helping teams andindividuals perform it just
(04:03):
became a natural blend of kindof the science of performance
within the body and now matchingit with what we know about the
brain to try to help bring adifferent set of tools to people
on their change journey.
Mick Spiers (04:15):
Yeah, really good, Michael.
There's a couple of thingsthere I'm curious to unpack One
about where you think we've beengoing wrong in the industry
let's call it that.
And the second one, thisconnection about the self and
thinking in the mirror going howdo I react to change before I
start looking to do a change ina team or whatever the case
might be.
(04:35):
To get back to a bit of basicsand fundamentals, I think that's
pretty interesting.
Let's start with the first one.
So you have worked for EY andBooz Allen and KPMG.
You've worked with somecompanies that do go in and do
big change programs.
Where do you think we've beengoing wrong?
There's a lot of money spent incompanies around the world on
(04:58):
change and not all of thosechange initiatives are
successful.
I remember a stat at one pointthat 70 to 80% of them are not
successful or don't meet theiroriginally intended outcomes.
Why are we keep on repeatingthe same mistakes?
Where are we going wrong?
Michael Lopez (05:16):
Yeah, it's a great question, and you know,
that stat in and of itself to mewas the impetus for wanting to
head down a different path,right, and look, I want to say
that I've worked with a lot ofpeople in the change management
community and that community isfull of hardworking,
well-intentioned, passionatepeople who are trying hard to
(05:37):
help companies meet their goals,and so it's not about intention
or aspiration or anything likethat.
So it's not about intention oraspiration or anything like that
.
But, to your point, it sort ofstruck me as ironic of the
methods that were being usedwere really similar across
companies, and yet you'd askyourself, if 70% of all
transformations fail, let's goback and look at the strategies
(06:00):
we're using to try to help thatchange take place, right?
So I had a hard timereconciling those two things,
and so you know, I think it'sjust important to acknowledge
that it's full of hardworkingpeople.
But you know, effort only getsyou so far, and so I really
wanted to understand some of thethings that I think we're
missing In terms of what we'regetting wrong or maybe not
(06:20):
getting right.
I'd rather use that phrase.
I mentioned it in my opening.
We do a lot of things incompanies at scale, and what
that means is we send people tothe same training, the same
communications, the sameexperiences, and while there's
value in that, the truth is notwo brains on planet Earth are
the same, and I think it'simportant to understand and
(06:42):
acknowledge that change is avery personal, unpredictable,
nonlinear experience.
And so I think a lot of timesin big companies, for the
purposes of being efficient, wetend to take a bit of a
paintbrush to groups of people.
Hey, there's this stakeholdercalled middle manager.
Let's just treat them all asthis unitary group, and we know
(07:02):
from the science of change andthe science of the brain that
two people can have a verydifferent experience going
through the same experience.
Right, and so I think we weremissing the mark on that.
I think I'd say the second thingthat we struggle with is the
economics of change arecomplicated, and in the big
(07:22):
consulting world, we'reobviously trying to keep costs
down.
Money's being spent on strategyor technology, implementation or
whatever the operational driverof that experience is, and we
tend to say well, we don't wantthe change part to be expensive,
keep it minimum, let's just dolight training, a little bit of
communications, and the truth is, all of this sounds great to
(07:45):
get actual people involved,right, and so I think we were
structuring these engagements inways that maybe didn't honor
the time horizon of what isreally required in change.
Right, a lot of money spent inthe strategy and in the
implementation of maybe the morehard experiences.
Right, the technology or thebolt-on company we bought or
(08:06):
whatever it is.
But the truth is a lot of thosethings are just the beginning
of the change experience formost people.
So those are two things that Ithink, again, it's not about
getting them wrong as much asmaybe a point of emphasis on
what's really required to changesomeone's behavior.
So those are two places tostart talking about.
Mick Spiers (08:26):
Really good.
So I'm hearing two things there, Michael.
The first one is that change isvery personal, and I'm sure
we're going to come back to thatin a few moments that, assuming
that what works for one personin the business, if you're in a
3000 people business, is itreally going to work for the
other 2,999?
So that's really good.
So the cookie cutter approachis not working.
(08:47):
The other thing I'm picking upthere that I'd like to go to now
, before we come back to thattopic, is whether we're
investing enough and giving itenough time.
And what I've seen in manyorganizations, Michael and I
think the audience will a lot ofthem will resonate with this is
change du jour.
What's the change initiative oftoday?
(09:10):
And the leadership team mightbe putting out a change
initiative and then the resultsdon't come in the first quarter.
So they go oh, it didn't work,we better try something else
next quarter.
But you didn't give it enoughtime to actually embed or to see
any results.
But the knock-on effect of whatI'm saying is now people now
(09:30):
get change-weary.
In fact, they might even justignore the change because they
go it's okay, ignore this onebecause there'll be a new one
next quarter.
So tell us more about this timeand investment element?
Michael Lopez (09:43):
Change always takes longer than you think it
will.
It's a fundamental principle.
I talk about it in my book.
I actually dive into some ofthe science behind our
perception of time andparticularly how our hormones.
When we're going throughdifficult experiences, they seem
to take a lot longer than theyactually do.
Or when things are fun we'vebeen on a roller coaster seems
like it's over in a heartbeatand they're not very long or
(10:05):
whatever, right?
So there's actually realscience behind our perception of
time and how our experience ofchange and stress particularly
influences that.
If people are curious about howthat works.
But you're right, change alwaystakes longer than you think and
it's one of the reasons why, atthe individual level, we give
(10:25):
up on our goals, right?
So most people, many people,have heard of this thing called
Quitter's Day.
Quitter's Day is January 19th.
That's the day that most peoplegive up on their New Year's
resolutions, right?
19 days and part of that.
And you were mentioning the ROIeffect of well, our project
isn't returning the money thatwe thought of it was going to
pay off yet.
But it's sort of like losingweight, right?
(10:45):
You don't lose 30 pounds in aworkout, right?
It has to happen repetitively,and so you know, first of all,
we lose patience with the timehorizon that we're trying to
kind of get to the outcome thatwe want, you know.
The second thing is, you know,around that is actually the
outcome itself.
.
We tend to focus on big numbers,particularly in companies.
(11:05):
Right, so much money saved orso much money earned, and those
are the things that are used tosell the project.
Right, it's a compelling ROI,it's a great business case, and
there's nothing wrong with doingthat analysis.
But the reality of changingthousands of people and then
letting their performance growinto a place where you can
actually capture that is muchmore complicated and is a much
(11:29):
slower experience.
And so companies get the samequitter's day effect as well.
Right, oh, we're not earning asmuch as we thought.
Let's stop.
And the truth is, the bestthing you can do is have a more
realistic timeline.
And I think that gets to thisidea One of the reasons I
started my own company.
I won't say where this was and,again, I think it was done with
(11:50):
good intentions.
But we sell the easy button alot in big consulting projects,
and it's because of thecompetitive nature of the
industry.
We're trying to be the cheapest, we're trying to be the highest
ROI.
We're trying to help theclients feel good about what
they're going through, and Ijust felt like it's a little bit
disingenuous, right.
If it was easy, you would havedone it already.
(12:11):
And this is hard, right, andit's hard times the thousands of
people that you have and so Ithink there's a little bit of
intellectual honesty that weneed to bring into the
conversation.
As I tell my clients yeah, thisis probably going to be
difficult, but I'm going to behere with you every step of the
way and I'm going to help youthrough that journey and keep it
realistic and help youunderstand what's really
(12:31):
required.
Mick Spiers (12:33):
Yeah, really good, michael.
So absolutely hearing you loudand clear that we need to stop
kidding ourselves that it'sgoing to be easy.
Change is hard.
Acknowledge that up front andacknowledge that it's going to
take time.
And if I could play back to you, the key lesson I'm taking is a
bit of consistency and a bit ofpatience there.
And I'm going to play back toyou the same analogy around
(12:55):
quitters day and also aroundlet's go with fitness.
I think that can resonate withmost people that, yeah,
expecting that if I work outevery day from January 1 to
January 19, I'm going to seemassive results no, no, it takes
longer than that.
But equally, it's also at theother end of the equation.
Having one burger or pizzadoesn't also make you unfit.
(13:19):
So whilst it's not one workoutthat makes you fit, it's not one
burger and pizza that makes youunfit.
But if you eat burgers andpizza every day for three years,
guess what it's going to happenover time.
So we see that compoundingeffort of bad habits, but we
don't give enough time for thecompounding effect of good
habits.
Is what I'm hearing.
(13:39):
Is that a good takeaway?
Yeah, no, that's absolutelyright.
There's three things that Italk about in my book that are
sort of essential strategies forchange.
We're talking about kind ofpractical tips, right?
And so one of the first thingsto think about is this idea of
what I call embracing stresswith stress, which means the
(14:09):
idea that doing hard things andwithstanding that experience is
a muscle that you can build.
It's a muscle you should build,and if you want to break a
habit, start a new habit, builda goal, you're going to
absolutely need to have a moreproductive relationship with
stress.
The second one I would say isyou talked about this idea of
consistency with stress.
The second one I would say isyou talked about this idea of
(14:30):
consistency?
Michael Lopez (14:30):
Right, repetition is the way that we learn,
particularly as we get older.
Right, there's actually, if youwant to know the scientific
term, it's called long-termpotentiation, which is the act
of repeating something over andover and over again.
You know, the habits thatyou've formed as an adult are
the result of long-termpotentiation.
There's things that maybe youwere aware of.
Many of them were not right.
They're patterns that youdeveloped over years, in some
(14:52):
cases decades.
You're not going to break thatpattern in a weekend, right,
it's going to take you a longtime and it's going to take a
lot of thoughtful time, and it'salso going to take the act of
restraint around performing theold action that you'd like to go
back to, right.
So that's called.
Actually, if you want to knowthe term, it's called long-term
depression, not the emotionalstate, but depressing the action
(15:14):
that you're not to perform.
Most people set goals that arenouns, right, they're outcomes,
a certain amount of money, acertain amount of whatever it
may be.
But the more you can focus onthe effort of chasing your goals
(15:35):
rather than the outcome ofactually getting it, the more
success you'll have and the moremotivated you'll be along that
journey.
And so those are things that Ihelp companies with, right,
which is this idea of rebuildinggoals that are more motivating
to people, helping peopleunderstand how to do hard things
in ways that keep themmotivated through that
experience, or at least helpthem bounce back from failure.
And then the understanding thatit's going to take you a lot of
(15:57):
repetitions in a new set ofpatterns in order to get the
outcome that you want anyway.
So how do we be realistic aboutthat?
Mick Spiers (16:05):
Yeah, really good, okay.
So I'm hearing some key wordshere the long-term potentiation,
the long-term depression ordeprecation of a long-term habit
that you're trying to breakonce and for all.
That it does take time.
And then I'm hearing this wordstress in there as well.
So, and the balance here?
I'm hearing this long-termpotentiation, and how am I going
(16:28):
to keep myself motivated eventhrough the times where I'm
feeling, oh, this is not quiteworking the way I want.
How am I going to show up thenext day?
The impact or the results aregoing to take time, so I need to
be patient.
But then I'm hearing this wordstress, and the picture that
came into my head when I washearing you, michael, is if I
went to the gym every day and Ilifted the same amount of weight
(16:50):
every day, eventually myresults would just plateau.
I'd habituate to that weight,but I need to just push myself
that little bit further outsidemy comfort zone.
What's 1% better?
Look like this week compared tolast week, and that's when I'm
going to see the growth.
Then I'm extrapolating thatinto the business world and go
(17:11):
well, is that what we're tryingin the business world Like?
If we're trying atransformation in our business,
what are we doing to turn thedial 1% every day or every week?
What's 1% better than last week, look like, so that we're not
just habituating, we're actuallypotentiating.
How does that sit with you?
Michael Lopez (17:30):
Yeah, no, look, there's a real challenge in the
business world, which is thatefficiency, right, which is the
shortest possible distance todeliver a product or process or
service or whatever it may be,is really profitable right.
I mean companies designprocesses and then find ways to
execute that process as quicklyas they can, and so the workers,
in all shapes and sizes, andwhether that's actually on an
(17:53):
assembly line or in knowledgework, are incentivized to be
efficient.
And that's just like the humanbody, right, which is designed
to be as efficient as possiblein allocating resources to,
quite frankly, just keep youalive, right.
So the challenge becomes in thechange world as it relates to
companies, is that change is, bydefinition, inefficient, right,
(18:15):
and then, which means it's, bydefinition, not as profitable,
and so what you have to be ableto withstand is the dip in
performance while you'relearning something new, to get
to that tipping point where Ibecome able to move from kind of
this trough of performance intostabilization and into a next
(18:37):
round of efficiency, right.
So it's just like learning anew physical skill or playing an
instrument or learning a newbehavior.
By definition, at the beginningof that experience, you're not
very good at it, right.
And what makes most people giveup is the stress of making
mistakes right.
We don't really like thatemotional experience.
The truth is, mistakes are thesingle largest contributor to
(19:00):
the opportunity forneuroplasticity that you can
actually experience.
And I use that phraseintentionally, because if you
don't learn from the mistake,then of course you know you
can't adapt, and that is, at theend of the day, what change is
all about.
It's about attempting newpatterns, making mistakes
Michael adjusting your behaviorand restarting that experience.
(19:23):
If you can get your employeesto embrace that and, as a
leadership team, if you can setreasonable goals that aren't
just focused on the quantitativeupside of return on investment,
your company and your teamswill do amazing things.
But you've got to strike thatbalance right, because there's
just this reality I'm not goodat something new.
(19:45):
The first time I try it.
It's going to take me a longtime, and so I spent a lot of
time with leaders helping thembe realistic.
It's not about not striving.
In fact, we know that thescience of motivation the
farther I strive, the more Iactually stay motivated.
It's about withstandingmistakes in the path of striving
to that ?
goal.
Mick Spiers (20:05):
Yeah, really good.
So the things I'm taking awayif I'm not pushing myself
slightly outside my comfort zone, I may not be making mistakes.
If I'm not making mistakes, I'mnot learning, I'm not growing.
Then I'm hearing this dip inperformance.
I think this is one we forgetas well, and I'm going to use a
metaphor here of a golf swing.
If you make a change to yourgolf swing, you're trying to
(20:27):
improve your golf swing, by theway, but when you make that
change, you're going to gobackwards first and then you're
going to get better as youmaster that new golf swing.
Michael Lopez (20:35):
And it's going Michael take you tens of
thousands, if not hundreds ofthousands, of swings.
It's such a great analogybecause I'm not very good at
golf.
I play only occasionally.
You know my first analogy,because I'm not very good at
golf, I play only occasionally.
My first golf swing isincredible.
It's straight down the middle,so good.
Then I stop thinking about itand I go watch this and I try to
do it again and it's a disaster.
It's only then, in the nextswing, that I start to go.
(20:59):
What happened there?
Why did I do that?
Then I try and you go throughthe whole golf experience.
But that is the experience weneed in order to grow.
There's actually been somestudies done around using things
like a dartboard, that peoplewho get closest to the bullseye
actually experience less brainreactivity than people who miss
(21:21):
farther away, because, of course, that's the goal, right?
Is this idea that how was I sofar off?
Right, but you've got to turninto that experience, not away
from it.
And that's somethingparticularly for leaders.
We hear about imposter syndromeand some of these things.
Where do I need to know all theanswers?
I'm totally sure of ourdestination.
(21:42):
I know exactly everythingthat's going to transpire.
Those are things that actuallylimit our growth, because we're
not open to the experience ofbeing wrong.
Mick Spiers (21:52):
Interesting.
Yeah, and what you said thereabout leaning into it.
That's when we can truly learnfrom the mistake and then turn
that into applied learning anddo something different next time
, which is really interesting.
Michael Lopez (22:04):
And there's actually a part of the brain.
This is in the book if you wantto really dive into it.
Science has actually proventhat doing hard things is the
pathway to growth.
There's a part of your braincalled the anterior
mid-singulate cortex, and it's aregion of the brain that, when
you do difficult things andovercome those experiences, it
actually gets bigger, meaningyour brain doesn't physically
(22:24):
grow, but more real estate isdedicated to this part of the
brain.
Athletes have among the largestAMCCs.
People who live a long timehave large AMCCs.
So we've heard this cliche ofdoing hard things.
The truth is, the sciencedemonstrates that the more you
do that, the more skill youdevelop in the experience of
(22:47):
doing hard things, which isreally what this is all about.
Right Change is a skill, and sothat's really what the book's
about, and that's what we'retalking about.
Right Is go make mistakes.
Of course, there's levels tothis.
There's catastrophic mistakesand all of that, and I'm not
minimizing those kinds of thingsbeing unsafe.
Nobody's suggesting to go dothat, but if there's something
(23:08):
that scares the hell out of you,that's a good signal that
that's something you should gotry to figure out.
Mick Spiers (23:16):
Yeah, that's a powerful message there, michael,
and the way I kind of translatewhat you're saying to us.
The picture in my head is allowyourself to scrape your knees a
few times.
It doesn't mean that you walkin front of traffic, right, but
allow yourself to scrape yourknees a few times and then learn
from it.
That's really good.
The bit why I wanted to comeback in the corporate world is
(23:37):
to make sure that yeah, we weretalking about ROI before we
might be trying this changeeffort.
We need to be ready that thebusiness might actually dip for
a bit before it.
Hockey sticks, right, and ifyou give up at the dip, well,
you actually just made thebusiness worse, not better,
through the change effort, right.
Michael Lopez (23:55):
Yeah, and then you put a bunch of people
through a process that they getno retained long-term learning
from right and it's going totake them a while.
So, so yeah, and you know, look, I think AI we can talk about
that is fundamentallyinfluencing this conversation in
incredible ways, becausecompanies are now looking at do
I use AI as the engine?
(24:15):
Because it already knowscertain things about, maybe,
what I'm trying to accomplish?
But the truth is AI, just likea person, has to be trained
right.
You're not going to get betterat using those tools unless you
experiment, try a few has to betrained right.
You're not going to get betterat using those tools unless you
experiment.
Try a few things.
Mess up, right.
Have the AI chat bot saysomething wrong, right.
All of those things are stillgoing to be part of the
(24:36):
experience.
Mick Spiers (24:38):
Yeah, brilliant, michael.
I love it.
Now we need to come back tosomething that we touched on
earlier.
So there's going to be peoplein the audience that are trying
to do change efforts inorganizations.
It could be a small team ofseven through to an organization
of 3,000 people, and what theyheard you say before, michael,
is that change is individual.
So if I am trying to do achange effort across a larger
(25:00):
team, how do I do that?
How do I set the compass forwhere we want to go, but then
realize let's go with 600 people, realize that there's 600
individuals and 600 differentbrains that are on this journey
together.
How do we make it personal?
.
Michael Lopez (33:22):
I like this point that you made about sceince
depersonalizes it a little bitthis a great question.
I'll maybe give you a littleexample of a client of mine.
It happens to be a nuclearpower station out in Mississippi
, one of the worst performingpower stations in the US.
There's about 100 stations inthe US, about 800 people that
work there, and they were in thebottom 10%.
Historically they're thelargest plant actually, but they
had been falling downward inperformance over about a 10-year
period.
The goal was to turn it aroundand how do we get them to be the
best performing station?
I'll give away a little bit ofthe punchline, which is they are
now in the top 10% of allstations.
the hows.
So the first thing is we took agroup of about 40 people that
had a natural inclinationtowards a mindset of growth and
what I call a stresses enhancingmindset.
It's actually this is in thebook as well People that had a
natural orientation towardswanting to get better.
We put them through a set ofexperiences.
The first experience and thisis really important is you have
to create a shared reality amongthat group.
Every one of those 40 peopleand, by definition, all the
other 750, 760, all had adifferent point of view as to
why performance had fallen down.
They're in differentdepartments, they've been there
for different time horizons,maybe different roles in the
community, all of this sort ofstuff.
So the first goal is I have tocreate a shared reality.
I have to get this team tounderstand why are we all here
together and do we all have thesame point of view, or at least
the same understanding as to howwe got here together?
And there's ways to do that, asto how we got here together,
and there's ways to do that.
The second thing that you haveto do is, among that first
cohort, is you have to get themto take individual
responsibility for ourcollective reality right, which
is?
It's not just enough tounderstand why we're here.
I've got to be able to get youindividually to take ownership
of it, not for all of it, butfor your portion of it.
If I can do that, what I'vedone is I've aligned the brains
in the room.
That's what I say.
First step is, if we're alllooking at this problem
differently, that I need to findthe best common denominator
among that experience so thatwhen I ask somebody, why are we
here, we get roughly the sameanswer.
Actually, that answer doesn'teven have to be perfectly
accurate, it just needs to be.
When I ask somebody, why are wehere, we get roughly the same
answer.
Right, and actually that answerdoesn't even have to be
perfectly accurate, it justneeds to be shared among that
group.
Obviously, the more accurate isthe better, but we want it to
be shared.
Then, when I get you to takeindividual ownership of that,
what you stop doing isexternalizing the source of why
we're here.
Remember we talked about changeis personal, it's individual.
I get you to look inward andsay how do I contribute and what
can I do differently, and howcan I take ownership of my own
change responsibility to now getus to a better place.
The third step is then to sayall right, now what is that
better place?
And how do we start to move andchange our patterns the same
patterns that got us here.
It's why the shared reality isso important.
How do we start to break thosepatterns?
Right, and, by the way, wedidn't set a goal to become in
the top 10%.
All that we did was said you'reat the bottom and in order to
get out of the bottom, we needto change the patterns that we
have.
And so, once you start gettingthat group of people to say,
here's four or five behaviorsthat we want to change, how do
we do that?
And since I've got a sharedunderstanding and I've got a
personal commitment, whathappens is those 40 people start
designing strategies to gochange those patterns.
The last step is getting othersinvolved and we call it creating
a movement.
Right, change is not a top-downexperience, it's a movement.
And they started talking topeople.
We would tell people hey, yourjob next week is to talk to
three people about what you'reworking on, and the week after
that is a new three people.
After six weeks they had talkedto everyone in the station and
by the time of about four monthslater, everyone knew that there
was something new happeninghere and they actually called
themselves the new Grand Gulf,which is the name of the station
, and they talk about timebefore and time after, and it's
really, really powerful stuff.
Mick Spiers (29:36):
This is a really powerful framework, Michael.
I really like it a lot.
And the very first step, theshared reality.
I think you will find thatpeople would come into that
first meeting thinking they knowwhat's going on, but they need
to deeply listen to each otherand have some perspective taking
to go.
Oh, that's interesting.
I was seeing this, but Michaelwas seeing this and George was
(29:58):
seeing this and Sally was seeingthis and it's that co-created
shared reality.
Now you're getting a richerpicture of the real state of
what's going on.
So the shared reality is reallygood.
The ownership andresponsibility of how did I
contribute to today's state andwhat can I do differently in the
future to get a differentresult.
And then, what is the sharedvision of?
(30:21):
What does it look like after wedo all of this activity, before
we start proliferating it withothers, and what behaviors will
get us to that shared vision ofthe future reality.
That's a very powerfulframework and everyone listening
at home, I think.
Well, first of all, get a copyof Michael's book.
(30:43):
phases that I've just described.
I use a little bit differentwords, but yeah, that's sort of
effectively how you can apply itto your own life as well.
Yeah, really good, all right.
So shared reality, ownershipand responsibility what does the
future look like and whatbehaviors will get there?
That's really good, michael,all right.
So I want to give you a chanceto talk more about the book.
(31:04):
You talk about sixscience-backed strategies to
transform your brain, body andbehavior.
What's the synopsis here?
Michael Lopez (31:10):
So I talked about three of them already Over the
last several years, going backto this idea that we needed to
have a different conversationaround change.
My time as an athlete workingin a number of different
companies, I wanted to reallyunderstand what's happening to
us at the microscopic level whenwe try to change.
I think there's value in that,not just because it gives us an
(31:33):
understanding of the mechanism,which is important because we
can use that to our advantagebut I think a lot of times we
tend to have negative sort ofinternal dialogue around failure
, not meeting our goals and thatsort of thing.
And I think what helps with thescience is that it kind of
depersonalizes a little bit ofit.
Oh, this is what's happeningwhen I try to do that.
(31:55):
This is why I get so frustrated, this is what I'm experiencing,
and it allows us to kind offeel a sense of I don't know
kinship with our fellow man, oflike, we all go through these
things.
Maybe there's different levelsto it, but each of these
dynamics, these sort of you knowscientific experiences or
things that are just part of ourshared collective human reality
(32:15):
, you know.
And then the last piece wasreally around this idea of how
do I use it, how do I put thosetools into practice?
And there's a quote that I saya lot, which is there's a
formula for change, but changeis not formulaic.
We've got to learn how to mixand match these Lego blocks or
these variables in this equationto kind of form our own
(32:37):
personalized guide, and so thatwas really the inspiration.
I actually started writing thebook about companies and
realized I need to take a stepback.
So I am working on another onethat'll be out maybe in 18
months or so, but it really isfor anyone who is trying to
accomplish a goal.
It doesn't have to be just inbusiness, it can be in your life
(32:58):
, in any dimension.
My hope is that it gives youthe tools to go accomplish all
the goals you've been maybetried and haven't succeeded, or
goals that you never thought of,that now are at your fingertips
because you've built this skillof change personalizes it a
(33:22):
little bit.
Mick Spiers (33:22):
This is why I study psychology, by the way to try
to make rational sense of whatis sometimes an irrational world
or irrational behavior, even myown behavior I'm talking about
here, not just externally, likeif I behave in a certain way, if
I go, ah okay, now I'm thesense-making of it.
When you make sense of thecurrent state, you can then make
sense of what you're going todo about it.
So you're really good, michael,all right.
Well, key question then there'sgoing to be a lot of people
(33:44):
listening to this and they mightfit anywhere on that spectrum
of individual transformationthrough to big company.
What's one step that you couldgive them?
What's the one baby step thatyou could give them to get them
to not be so fearful of changeand to lean into it a little bit
more?
Michael Lopez (34:00):
get them to not be so fearful of change and to
lean into it a little bit more.
You know, we talked about it, Imentioned this.
You know, among the six maybeit's like having a favorite kid
or something like that.
I mean, they're all importantin their own right.
We talked about this idea ofembracing stress.
There's demonized stress in waysthat limit our ability to meet
(34:23):
our goals and look just likeanything else.
There's levels to this as well.
We know that long-termemotional, physical, stress is
debilitating and it's importantto get help from someone who's
qualified to help you in thatsituation.
That's certainly not me inthose situations.
But acute, short-term,particularly self-induced stress
(34:45):
is essential for growth.
You know, muscles grow understress, bones grow under stress,
eyesight performs well understress and focus, and so all of
these things we learn understress.
You know, the same behavior orthe same almost hormonal
reaction that creates stress isthe same hormonal reaction
that's used when we're learningsomething new, and so for me, it
(35:08):
all starts with that, andthere's ways to get better at
this.
Right, there's the cold plungecraze.
I take a cold shower every day.
It sucks every time.
Right, it never gets better,but it's this idea that, on the
other side of this experience,is a version of me that will
feel more accomplished, morecapable to take on the next hard
(35:30):
thing.
And so, for me, you know, findsomething and it doesn't have to
be the biggest goal that youhave, and that's part of our
challenge with goals is we setthe goal that's in our face
every day.
That, maybe, is the most likenegatively salient right, maybe
something we've been strugglingwith for years, because it's
that thing we know we want tostop or change, but we just
can't.
Don't pick that one becausethere's a reason it's still
(35:54):
there, right?
It's tough.
Pick something that you know isjust beyond.
You know something new,something that you're a little
bit interested in learning aninstrument, learning a language,
something that is hard enoughfor you that you will struggle,
but not so hard that you'll giveup and put yourself
intentionally in that situation.
That's really the startingpoint, I think, of any change
(36:15):
journey, because what we'retrying to build is the skill of
change, right?
Mick Spiers (36:19):
Really good.
So leaning into the stress,building a michaeljlopez.
coach, of resilience, butstepping just outside your
comfort zone.
Here there's a thing called I'msure you're aware of it,
michael, but for the audiencethe Yerkes-Dodson curve, which
is the curve of stress toperformance, and with no stress
it's zero performance and zerochange.
With moderate stress ismoderate change.
(36:41):
With too much stress, youcapitulate right.
So you got to get it right.
I'm going to use another sportsmetaphor here.
I really need to work ondeveloping some non-sports
metaphors.
Michael Lopez (36:51):
That's all right, I like them.
Mick Spiers (36:53):
I play tennis, Mick .
I love tennis.
Right, and I'm somewherebetween a level four and a level
five tennis player on a scaleof one to seven.
Right, when I play againstlevel five tennis players, Be I
play my best tennis and I getbetter.
When I play against level threetennis players, I actually get
worse.
I actually play really badlyright.
So pushing myself just outsidemy comfort zone is level five
(37:15):
and I get better.
I'm not going to challengeRoger Federer tomorrow because
that would be embarrassing forboth of us.
Right, and I'm not going tolearn anything from that
experience.
Michael Lopez (37:28):
But just outside my comfort zone is where that
growth exists.
How does that sit with you?
No, I, I tell my son all thetime you can see there's a.
I played American football.
I played quarterback.
He plays quarterback.
He's way better than I ever was.
There's a picture behind me ofthe two of us superimposed
together.
And and I've told him his wholelife, the only way to get
better is to play people betterthan you, because you have to
adjust, right, you have to adapt, you have to try new things and
you have to learn to recoverfrom loss.
(37:52):
Right, you have to learn to.
You know, my daughter also playssports.
She rides horses, she playsflag football, she also is a
quarterback it's kind of a thingin our family and she had a
game on Sunday.
They started out on defense.
The other team scored on TheBecause, again, using the sports
analogy like let's go watch thetape right, what happened?
(38:25):
Where was my foot?
Why did I lose this point?
What did I assume about myopponent that maybe was wrong?
What do I need to work on?
Strength-wise or speed-wise orwhatever?
Right, you've got to get thatinformation into your brain and
then you've got to act on it.
And so, yeah, it absolutely istrue.
Mick Spiers (38:44):
And that comes beautifully back to our mistake
learning applied learning curveright.
So really good, All right,Thank you so much, Michael.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
I'd like to now take us to ourrapid round.
So these are the same fourquestions we ask all of our
guests.
So what's the one thing youknow now, Michael Lopez, that
you wish you knew when you were20?
Michael Lopez (39:04):
You know, a year and a half ago, two years ago, I
started my own company and Ihad always wanted to be an
entrepreneur.
I was a little bit afraid to doso.
I wish I had the knowledge andunderstanding that I could be
successful financially,economically, socially in
running my own company.
I wish I had done that reallydecades ago.
Now I'm very grateful for theexperiences that I've had
(39:26):
because it's led me here, so Icertainly don't regret any of it
.
But I always operated with amindset that there was safety in
working for a company.
My parents were very simplepeople so I thought, hey, you
get a good job, you work therefor your whole life and you're
good.
And of course, now I'm in amuch different space and I wish
(39:47):
I had learned that sooner.
Mick Spiers (39:49):
Yeah, all right, nice one, nice reflection.
What's your favorite book?
Michael Lopez (39:53):
I have so many favorite books.
Actually, one of them is rightbehind me, you'll see this book
called Outlive by Peter Attia.
It's really about the scienceand art of longevity and living
longer.
I'm 51, about to be 52 and havelittle kids, so that book has
really spoken to me in many ways, at least recently.
But the one I would have to saythe most just in terms of
(40:15):
longevity of my adulthood isMan's Search for Meaning by
Viktor Frankl.
It's a transformative book thatif you've never read it, you
absolutely need to.
Mick Spiers (40:26):
So I would say that one there's a powerful one
there around resilience.
And then tapping back into yourreason for living, your
motivation.
You spoke about how you'regoing to stay motivated at the
low times.
Well, there's a perfect examplewith Frankl.
Yeah, really good.
And what's your favorite quote?
Michael Lopez (40:44):
Yeah, we talked about that.
I actually have a new favoritequote which I just found
recently and I can't rememberhow I found it, but it's from
George Bernard Shaw.
I'll just read it.
It's a little long, but it's afamous one from him, which is I
want to be thoroughly used upwhen I die, for the harder I
work, the more I live.
I rejoice in life for its ownsake.
(41:04):
Life is no brief candle.
For me, it is a sort ofsplendid torch which I have got
a hold of for the moment and Iwant to make it burn as brightly
as possible before handing iton to future generations.
I find real meaning in that.
I feel like I'm just gettingstarted in my life in a lot of
ways and I'm always working onsomething and trying to build
(41:26):
and create and give, and I justlove that one.
It really speaks to me.
Mick Spiers (41:31):
Yeah, I love it and I can see how meaningful it is
for you.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat with us.
Finally, michael, how do peoplefind you?
If people are interested eitherfrom a corporate change point
of view through to individualtransformation, how do people
find you and take advantage ofyour work?
Michael Lopez (41:47):
Yeah, my website is a great place to start
michaeljlopezcoach Just a kindof nod to my coaching heritage
there.
You can find all of my socialmedia on there.
You can connect with me andcontact me.
I'm really big on.
I spend a my social media onthere.
You can connect with me andcontact me.
I'm really big on.
I spend a lot of time onLinkedIn, as I mentioned maybe I
mentioned I'm a top voice onLinkedIn, which I'm very proud
(42:08):
of.
I spend a lot of time writingabout change there, talking
about change.
I have a weekly LinkedIn Liveseries which has become a bit of
a quasi podcast, called TopVoice Tuesday, where I meet with
other top voices and we talkabout a range of contemporary
business issues.
It's just so many amazingpeople in that community, so
trying to give them a voice.
(42:29):
You can order my book on thewebsite, follow me on all my
other socials, but that's agreat place to start.
Everything can be found there.
Mick Spiers (42:38):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Michael.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom today and for sharing
your experience and giving usvery practical tips on how we
might lean into stress and leaninto change and to have that
resilience and persistence tosee the change effort through to
something that's meaningful.
Thank you so much.
Michael Lopez (42:58):
It's been great, nick.
I appreciate it, and if I couldleave your listeners with one
last thing, I would say that, aI hope you learned something new
the day before they closed thecasket, and B change isn't just
possible, it's necessary, andit's necessary throughout our
whole lives, and so my best toeveryone on their journey.
Mick Spiers (43:18):
Very powerful.
Thank you, Michael.
Wow, what an insightfulconversation with Michael Lopez.
If there's one thing I hope youtake from today, it's this
Change isn't something to manage, it's something to understand,
and when we truly understandwhat's happening in the brain
and the body during times ofchange, we unlock the power to
(43:38):
guide ourselves and others withcompassion, clarity and courage.
Michael reminded us thattransformation is not a checkbox
.
It's a practice.
It's something we show up forevery day, and as leaders, we
have a responsibility and aprivilege to go first, to model
change and to create theconditions where others feel
(44:01):
safe to evolve too.
If you found value in theepisode, please take a moment to
rate and review the show.
It helps us reach more peoplewho care about leadership.
That matters, and if you're notalready part of our growing
community, be sure to subscribeto the Leadership Project on
your favorite podcast platformand follow us on LinkedIn and
(44:22):
YouTube.
We've got more greatconversations coming your way.
In the next episode, it's goingto be a solo cast where I
reflect on the greatconversations we've had this
month.
I'll reflect on the last fourepisodes that we've had.
So until next time, keepleaning in, keep growing and
remember, as Simon Sinekfamously said leadership is not
(44:46):
about being in charge.
It's about taking care of thosein your charge.
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project, mickspiers.
com.
A huge call out to Faris Sedekfor his video editing of all of
our video content and to all ofthe team at TLP Joan Gozon,
(45:06):
Gerald Calibo and my amazingwife Sei Spiers.
I could not do this showwithout you.
Don't forget to subscribe toThe Leadership Project YouTube
channel, where we bring youinteresting videos each and
every week, and you can followus on social, particularly on
LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
Now, in the meantime, please dotake care, look out for each
(45:28):
other and join us on thisjourney as we learn together and
lead together.
What really stops us from changing ourselves, our
teams, our organisations?
Is it a lack of willpower or amisunderstanding of how humans
actually respond to change at abiological level?
And what if we could unlocktransformation by working with
our brain and our body, insteadof against them?
(00:24):
Today, we are joined by thebrilliant Michael Lopez, a
transformation coach, changeexpert and author of the book
Six Science-Backed Strategies toTransform Your Brain, Your Body
and Your Behaviour.
We're going to discuss whychange initiatives fail, even
with good intentions, how tomove from resistance and fear to
(00:45):
curiosity and adaptability, andwhy leaders must go first in
modeling vulnerability in change.
This conversation is full ofinsights, honesty and actionable
advice on how you can reframehow you think about change.
So grab a pen, take some notesand get ready to transform the
(01:06):
way you lead.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto The Leadership Project.
I'm greatly honored today tobe joined by Michael Lopez.
Michael is a coach who helpsorganizations, companies, teams
and individuals to elevate theirperformance through
transformation.
Change can be scary, but it'ssomething that is with us every
(01:27):
single day, and that's what ourfocus is going to be today.
It's going to be about changeand transformation.
Michael is also the author of abook called Change Six
Science-Backed Strategies toTransform your Brain, your Body
and your Behavior, so I'm reallyinterested to hear Michael's
perspective here.
(01:48):
It's something that we're allfaced with every day and if we
can lean into it, we can getamazing results.
So, Michael, without anyfurther ado, I'd love to hear
from you.
I'd love to know a little bitmore about your background and
what particularly inspired youto do the work that you do to
help individuals, companies andteams around change and
(02:08):
transformation?
Michael Lopez (02:09):
Yeah, thanks, Mick.
It's great to be here with you,thanks for having me on and
really do enjoy the opportunityto talk about all the ways in
which we try to change.
Really there's many layers toit, but I think the most recent
one.
You know, I spent two decadesin big consulting helping
companies of all types try tochange in different ways whether
(02:30):
it's culture, operations,strategy, you name it and what I
found was a lot of thetechniques and methods that we
were using to try to createchange in individuals really
just simply weren't working, andit wasn't because they weren't
well-intentioned, hardworkingpeople trying to drive and
create compelling experiencesfor people and companies.
(02:55):
I think we lost our way when itcomes to understanding what's
happening to us at themicroscopic level when we try to
change, and the more weunderstand what's going on
internally, the more we canleverage those systems and
structures to start toaccomplish our goals, because,
at the end of the day, change isa personal experience.
(03:17):
The only person you can changeis you.
The only person you can everchange is you, and so I just
felt like we needed a differentconversation and a new set of
tools inside these largercompanies to be able to help
really create the outcomes thatwe wanted.
I'll add another piece, which isI spent my life as an athlete.
I played high school football,I played college football, I
(03:39):
coach still on a football teamand I use strategies.
We know so much about the bodyin terms of driving athletic
team and you know I was.
I use strategies, we know somuch about the body in terms of
driving athletic performance,and yet I thought we'd show up
into the office and forget allof those strategies.
So you know, the most recentexperience might've been what I
was going through as aconsultant, but my heritage as a
coach and helping teams andindividuals perform it just
(04:03):
became a natural blend of kindof the science of performance
within the body and now matchingit with what we know about the
brain to try to help bring adifferent set of tools to people
on their change journey.
Mick Spiers (04:15):
Yeah, really good, Michael.
There's a couple of thingsthere I'm curious to unpack One
about where you think we've beengoing wrong in the industry
let's call it that.
And the second one, thisconnection about the self and
thinking in the mirror going howdo I react to change before I
start looking to do a change ina team or whatever the case
might be.
(04:35):
To get back to a bit of basicsand fundamentals, I think that's
pretty interesting.
Let's start with the first one.
So you have worked for EY andBooz Allen and KPMG.
You've worked with somecompanies that do go in and do
big change programs.
Where do you think we've beengoing wrong?
There's a lot of money spent incompanies around the world on
(04:58):
change and not all of thosechange initiatives are
successful.
I remember a stat at one pointthat 70 to 80% of them are not
successful or don't meet theiroriginally intended outcomes.
Why are we keep on repeatingthe same mistakes?
Where are we going wrong?
Michael Lopez (05:16):
Yeah, it's a great question, and you know,
that stat in and of itself to mewas the impetus for wanting to
head down a different path,right, and look, I want to say
that I've worked with a lot ofpeople in the change management
community and that community isfull of hardworking,
well-intentioned, passionatepeople who are trying hard to
(05:37):
help companies meet their goals,and so it's not about intention
or aspiration or anything likethat.
So it's not about intention oraspiration or anything like that
.
But, to your point, it sort ofstruck me as ironic of the
methods that were being usedwere really similar across
companies, and yet you'd askyourself, if 70% of all
transformations fail, let's goback and look at the strategies
(06:00):
we're using to try to help thatchange take place, right?
So I had a hard timereconciling those two things,
and so you know, I think it'sjust important to acknowledge
that it's full of hardworkingpeople.
But you know, effort only getsyou so far, and so I really
wanted to understand some of thethings that I think we're
missing In terms of what we'regetting wrong or maybe not
(06:20):
getting right.
I'd rather use that phrase.
I mentioned it in my opening.
We do a lot of things incompanies at scale, and what
that means is we send people tothe same training, the same
communications, the sameexperiences, and while there's
value in that, the truth is notwo brains on planet Earth are
the same, and I think it'simportant to understand and
(06:42):
acknowledge that change is avery personal, unpredictable,
nonlinear experience.
And so I think a lot of timesin big companies, for the
purposes of being efficient, wetend to take a bit of a
paintbrush to groups of people.
Hey, there's this stakeholdercalled middle manager.
Let's just treat them all asthis unitary group, and we know
(07:02):
from the science of change andthe science of the brain that
two people can have a verydifferent experience going
through the same experience.
Right, and so I think we weremissing the mark on that.
I think I'd say the second thingthat we struggle with is the
economics of change arecomplicated, and in the big
(07:22):
consulting world, we'reobviously trying to keep costs
down.
Money's being spent on strategyor technology, implementation or
whatever the operational driverof that experience is, and we
tend to say well, we don't wantthe change part to be expensive,
keep it minimum, let's just dolight training, a little bit of
communications, and the truth is, all of this sounds great to
(07:45):
get actual people involved,right, and so I think we were
structuring these engagements inways that maybe didn't honor
the time horizon of what isreally required in change.
Right, a lot of money spent inthe strategy and in the
implementation of maybe the morehard experiences.
Right, the technology or thebolt-on company we bought or
(08:06):
whatever it is.
But the truth is a lot of thosethings are just the beginning
of the change experience formost people.
So those are two things that Ithink, again, it's not about
getting them wrong as much asmaybe a point of emphasis on
what's really required to changesomeone's behavior.
So those are two places tostart talking about.
Mick Spiers (08:26):
Really good.
So I'm hearing two things there, Michael.
The first one is that change isvery personal, and I'm sure
we're going to come back to thatin a few moments that, assuming
that what works for one personin the business, if you're in a
3000 people business, is itreally going to work for the
other 2,999?
So that's really good.
So the cookie cutter approachis not working.
(08:47):
The other thing I'm picking upthere that I'd like to go to now
, before we come back to thattopic, is whether we're
investing enough and giving itenough time.
And what I've seen in manyorganizations, Michael and I
think the audience will a lot ofthem will resonate with this is
change du jour.
What's the change initiative oftoday?
(09:10):
And the leadership team mightbe putting out a change
initiative and then the resultsdon't come in the first quarter.
So they go oh, it didn't work,we better try something else
next quarter.
But you didn't give it enoughtime to actually embed or to see
any results.
But the knock-on effect of whatI'm saying is now people now
(09:30):
get change-weary.
In fact, they might even justignore the change because they
go it's okay, ignore this onebecause there'll be a new one
next quarter.
So tell us more about this timeand investment element?
Michael Lopez (09:43):
Change always takes longer than you think it
will.
It's a fundamental principle.
I talk about it in my book.
I actually dive into some ofthe science behind our
perception of time andparticularly how our hormones.
When we're going throughdifficult experiences, they seem
to take a lot longer than theyactually do.
Or when things are fun we'vebeen on a roller coaster seems
like it's over in a heartbeatand they're not very long or
(10:05):
whatever, right?
So there's actually realscience behind our perception of
time and how our experience ofchange and stress particularly
influences that.
If people are curious about howthat works.
But you're right, change alwaystakes longer than you think and
it's one of the reasons why, atthe individual level, we give
(10:25):
up on our goals, right?
So most people, many people,have heard of this thing called
Quitter's Day.
Quitter's Day is January 19th.
That's the day that most peoplegive up on their New Year's
resolutions, right?
19 days and part of that.
And you were mentioning the ROIeffect of well, our project
isn't returning the money thatwe thought of it was going to
pay off yet.
But it's sort of like losingweight, right?
(10:45):
You don't lose 30 pounds in aworkout, right?
It has to happen repetitively,and so you know, first of all,
we lose patience with the timehorizon that we're trying to
kind of get to the outcome thatwe want, you know.
The second thing is, you know,around that is actually the
outcome itself.
.
We tend to focus on big numbers,particularly in companies.
(11:05):
Right, so much money saved orso much money earned, and those
are the things that are used tosell the project.
Right, it's a compelling ROI,it's a great business case, and
there's nothing wrong with doingthat analysis.
But the reality of changingthousands of people and then
letting their performance growinto a place where you can
actually capture that is muchmore complicated and is a much
(11:29):
slower experience.
And so companies get the samequitter's day effect as well.
Right, oh, we're not earning asmuch as we thought.
Let's stop.
And the truth is, the bestthing you can do is have a more
realistic timeline.
And I think that gets to thisidea One of the reasons I
started my own company.
I won't say where this was and,again, I think it was done with
(11:50):
good intentions.
But we sell the easy button alot in big consulting projects,
and it's because of thecompetitive nature of the
industry.
We're trying to be the cheapest, we're trying to be the highest
ROI.
We're trying to help theclients feel good about what
they're going through, and Ijust felt like it's a little bit
disingenuous, right.
If it was easy, you would havedone it already.
(12:11):
And this is hard, right, andit's hard times the thousands of
people that you have and so Ithink there's a little bit of
intellectual honesty that weneed to bring into the
conversation.
As I tell my clients yeah, thisis probably going to be
difficult, but I'm going to behere with you every step of the
way and I'm going to help youthrough that journey and keep it
realistic and help youunderstand what's really
(12:31):
required.
Mick Spiers (12:33):
Yeah, really good, michael.
So absolutely hearing you loudand clear that we need to stop
kidding ourselves that it'sgoing to be easy.
Change is hard.
Acknowledge that up front andacknowledge that it's going to
take time.
And if I could play back to you, the key lesson I'm taking is a
bit of consistency and a bit ofpatience there.
And I'm going to play back toyou the same analogy around
(12:55):
quitters day and also aroundlet's go with fitness.
I think that can resonate withmost people that, yeah,
expecting that if I work outevery day from January 1 to
January 19, I'm going to seemassive results no, no, it takes
longer than that.
But equally, it's also at theother end of the equation.
Having one burger or pizzadoesn't also make you unfit.
(13:19):
So whilst it's not one workoutthat makes you fit, it's not one
burger and pizza that makes youunfit.
But if you eat burgers andpizza every day for three years,
guess what it's going to happenover time.
So we see that compoundingeffort of bad habits, but we
don't give enough time for thecompounding effect of good
habits.
Is what I'm hearing.
(13:39):
Is that a good takeaway?
Yeah, no, that's absolutelyright.
There's three things that Italk about in my book that are
sort of essential strategies forchange.
We're talking about kind ofpractical tips, right?
And so one of the first thingsto think about is this idea of
what I call embracing stresswith stress, which means the
(14:09):
idea that doing hard things andwithstanding that experience is
a muscle that you can build.
It's a muscle you should build,and if you want to break a
habit, start a new habit, builda goal, you're going to
absolutely need to have a moreproductive relationship with
stress.
The second one I would say isyou talked about this idea of
consistency with stress.
The second one I would say isyou talked about this idea of
(14:30):
consistency?
Michael Lopez (14:30):
Right, repetition is the way that we learn,
particularly as we get older.
Right, there's actually, if youwant to know the scientific
term, it's called long-termpotentiation, which is the act
of repeating something over andover and over again.
You know, the habits thatyou've formed as an adult are
the result of long-termpotentiation.
There's things that maybe youwere aware of.
Many of them were not right.
They're patterns that youdeveloped over years, in some
(14:52):
cases decades.
You're not going to break thatpattern in a weekend, right,
it's going to take you a longtime and it's going to take a
lot of thoughtful time, and it'salso going to take the act of
restraint around performing theold action that you'd like to go
back to, right.
So that's called.
Actually, if you want to knowthe term, it's called long-term
depression, not the emotionalstate, but depressing the action
(15:14):
that you're not to perform.
Most people set goals that arenouns, right, they're outcomes,
a certain amount of money, acertain amount of whatever it
may be.
But the more you can focus onthe effort of chasing your goals
(15:35):
rather than the outcome ofactually getting it, the more
success you'll have and the moremotivated you'll be along that
journey.
And so those are things that Ihelp companies with, right,
which is this idea of rebuildinggoals that are more motivating
to people, helping peopleunderstand how to do hard things
in ways that keep themmotivated through that
experience, or at least helpthem bounce back from failure.
And then the understanding thatit's going to take you a lot of
(15:57):
repetitions in a new set ofpatterns in order to get the
outcome that you want anyway.
So how do we be realistic aboutthat?
Mick Spiers (16:05):
Yeah, really good, okay.
So I'm hearing some key wordshere the long-term potentiation,
the long-term depression ordeprecation of a long-term habit
that you're trying to breakonce and for all.
That it does take time.
And then I'm hearing this wordstress in there as well.
So, and the balance here?
I'm hearing this long-termpotentiation, and how am I going
(16:28):
to keep myself motivated eventhrough the times where I'm
feeling, oh, this is not quiteworking the way I want.
How am I going to show up thenext day?
The impact or the results aregoing to take time, so I need to
be patient.
But then I'm hearing this wordstress, and the picture that
came into my head when I washearing you, michael, is if I
went to the gym every day and Ilifted the same amount of weight
(16:50):
every day, eventually myresults would just plateau.
I'd habituate to that weight,but I need to just push myself
that little bit further outsidemy comfort zone.
What's 1% better?
Look like this week compared tolast week, and that's when I'm
going to see the growth.
Then I'm extrapolating thatinto the business world and go
(17:11):
well, is that what we're tryingin the business world Like?
If we're trying atransformation in our business,
what are we doing to turn thedial 1% every day or every week?
What's 1% better than last week, look like, so that we're not
just habituating, we're actuallypotentiating.
How does that sit with you?
Michael Lopez (17:30):
Yeah, no, look, there's a real challenge in the
business world, which is thatefficiency, right, which is the
shortest possible distance todeliver a product or process or
service or whatever it may be,is really profitable right.
I mean companies designprocesses and then find ways to
execute that process as quicklyas they can, and so the workers,
in all shapes and sizes, andwhether that's actually on an
(17:53):
assembly line or in knowledgework, are incentivized to be
efficient.
And that's just like the humanbody, right, which is designed
to be as efficient as possiblein allocating resources to,
quite frankly, just keep youalive, right.
So the challenge becomes in thechange world as it relates to
companies, is that change is, bydefinition, inefficient, right,
(18:15):
and then, which means it's, bydefinition, not as profitable,
and so what you have to be ableto withstand is the dip in
performance while you'relearning something new, to get
to that tipping point where Ibecome able to move from kind of
this trough of performance intostabilization and into a next
(18:37):
round of efficiency, right.
So it's just like learning anew physical skill or playing an
instrument or learning a newbehavior.
By definition, at the beginningof that experience, you're not
very good at it, right.
And what makes most people giveup is the stress of making
mistakes right.
We don't really like thatemotional experience.
The truth is, mistakes are thesingle largest contributor to
(19:00):
the opportunity forneuroplasticity that you can
actually experience.
And I use that phraseintentionally, because if you
don't learn from the mistake,then of course you know you
can't adapt, and that is, at theend of the day, what change is
all about.
It's about attempting newpatterns, making mistakes
Michael adjusting your behaviorand restarting that experience.
(19:23):
If you can get your employeesto embrace that and, as a
leadership team, if you can setreasonable goals that aren't
just focused on the quantitativeupside of return on investment,
your company and your teamswill do amazing things.
But you've got to strike thatbalance right, because there's
just this reality I'm not goodat something new.
(19:45):
The first time I try it.
It's going to take me a longtime, and so I spent a lot of
time with leaders helping thembe realistic.
It's not about not striving.
In fact, we know that thescience of motivation the
farther I strive, the more Iactually stay motivated.
It's about withstandingmistakes in the path of striving
to that ?
goal.
Mick Spiers (20:05):
Yeah, really good.
So the things I'm taking awayif I'm not pushing myself
slightly outside my comfort zone, I may not be making mistakes.
If I'm not making mistakes, I'mnot learning, I'm not growing.
Then I'm hearing this dip inperformance.
I think this is one we forgetas well, and I'm going to use a
metaphor here of a golf swing.
If you make a change to yourgolf swing, you're trying to
(20:27):
improve your golf swing, by theway, but when you make that
change, you're going to gobackwards first and then you're
going to get better as youmaster that new golf swing.
Michael Lopez (20:35):
And it's going Michael take you tens of
thousands, if not hundreds ofthousands, of swings.
It's such a great analogybecause I'm not very good at
golf.
I play only occasionally.
You know my first analogy,because I'm not very good at
golf, I play only occasionally.
My first golf swing isincredible.
It's straight down the middle,so good.
Then I stop thinking about itand I go watch this and I try to
do it again and it's a disaster.
It's only then, in the nextswing, that I start to go.
(20:59):
What happened there?
Why did I do that?
Then I try and you go throughthe whole golf experience.
But that is the experience weneed in order to grow.
There's actually been somestudies done around using things
like a dartboard, that peoplewho get closest to the bullseye
actually experience less brainreactivity than people who miss
(21:21):
farther away, because, of course, that's the goal, right?
Is this idea that how was I sofar off?
Right, but you've got to turninto that experience, not away
from it.
And that's somethingparticularly for leaders.
We hear about imposter syndromeand some of these things.
Where do I need to know all theanswers?
I'm totally sure of ourdestination.
(21:42):
I know exactly everythingthat's going to transpire.
Those are things that actuallylimit our growth, because we're
not open to the experience ofbeing wrong.
Mick Spiers (21:52):
Interesting.
Yeah, and what you said thereabout leaning into it.
That's when we can truly learnfrom the mistake and then turn
that into applied learning anddo something different next time
, which is really interesting.
Michael Lopez (22:04):
And there's actually a part of the brain.
This is in the book if you wantto really dive into it.
Science has actually proventhat doing hard things is the
pathway to growth.
There's a part of your braincalled the anterior
mid-singulate cortex, and it's aregion of the brain that, when
you do difficult things andovercome those experiences, it
actually gets bigger, meaningyour brain doesn't physically
(22:24):
grow, but more real estate isdedicated to this part of the
brain.
Athletes have among the largestAMCCs.
People who live a long timehave large AMCCs.
So we've heard this cliche ofdoing hard things.
The truth is, the sciencedemonstrates that the more you
do that, the more skill youdevelop in the experience of
(22:47):
doing hard things, which isreally what this is all about.
Right Change is a skill, and sothat's really what the book's
about, and that's what we'retalking about.
Right Is go make mistakes.
Of course, there's levels tothis.
There's catastrophic mistakesand all of that, and I'm not
minimizing those kinds of thingsbeing unsafe.
Nobody's suggesting to go dothat, but if there's something
(23:08):
that scares the hell out of you,that's a good signal that
that's something you should gotry to figure out.
Mick Spiers (23:16):
Yeah, that's a powerful message there, michael,
and the way I kind of translatewhat you're saying to us.
The picture in my head is allowyourself to scrape your knees a
few times.
It doesn't mean that you walkin front of traffic, right, but
allow yourself to scrape yourknees a few times and then learn
from it.
That's really good.
The bit why I wanted to comeback in the corporate world is
(23:37):
to make sure that yeah, we weretalking about ROI before we
might be trying this changeeffort.
We need to be ready that thebusiness might actually dip for
a bit before it.
Hockey sticks, right, and ifyou give up at the dip, well,
you actually just made thebusiness worse, not better,
through the change effort, right.
Michael Lopez (23:55):
Yeah, and then you put a bunch of people
through a process that they getno retained long-term learning
from right and it's going totake them a while.
So, so yeah, and you know, look, I think AI we can talk about
that is fundamentallyinfluencing this conversation in
incredible ways, becausecompanies are now looking at do
I use AI as the engine?
(24:15):
Because it already knowscertain things about, maybe,
what I'm trying to accomplish?
But the truth is AI, just likea person, has to be trained
right.
You're not going to get betterat using those tools unless you
experiment, try a few has to betrained right.
You're not going to get betterat using those tools unless you
experiment.
Try a few things.
Mess up, right.
Have the AI chat bot saysomething wrong, right.
All of those things are stillgoing to be part of the
(24:36):
experience.
Mick Spiers (24:38):
Yeah, brilliant, michael.
I love it.
Now we need to come back tosomething that we touched on
earlier.
So there's going to be peoplein the audience that are trying
to do change efforts inorganizations.
It could be a small team ofseven through to an organization
of 3,000 people, and what theyheard you say before, michael,
is that change is individual.
So if I am trying to do achange effort across a larger
(25:00):
team, how do I do that?
How do I set the compass forwhere we want to go, but then
realize let's go with 600 people, realize that there's 600
individuals and 600 differentbrains that are on this journey
together.
How do we make it personal?
.
Michael Lopez (33:22):
I like this point that you made about sceince
depersonalizes it a little bitthis a great question.
I'll maybe give you a littleexample of a client of mine.
It happens to be a nuclearpower station out in Mississippi
, one of the worst performingpower stations in the US.
There's about 100 stations inthe US, about 800 people that
work there, and they were in thebottom 10%.
Historically they're thelargest plant actually, but they
had been falling downward inperformance over about a 10-year
period.
The goal was to turn it aroundand how do we get them to be the
best performing station?
I'll give away a little bit ofthe punchline, which is they are
now in the top 10% of allstations.
the hows.
So the first thing is we took agroup of about 40 people that
had a natural inclinationtowards a mindset of growth and
what I call a stresses enhancingmindset.
It's actually this is in thebook as well People that had a
natural orientation towardswanting to get better.
We put them through a set ofexperiences.
The first experience and thisis really important is you have
to create a shared reality amongthat group.
Every one of those 40 peopleand, by definition, all the
other 750, 760, all had adifferent point of view as to
why performance had fallen down.
They're in differentdepartments, they've been there
for different time horizons,maybe different roles in the
community, all of this sort ofstuff.
So the first goal is I have tocreate a shared reality.
I have to get this team tounderstand why are we all here
together and do we all have thesame point of view, or at least
the same understanding as to howwe got here together?
And there's ways to do that, asto how we got here together,
and there's ways to do that.
The second thing that you haveto do is, among that first
cohort, is you have to get themto take individual
responsibility for ourcollective reality right, which
is?
It's not just enough tounderstand why we're here.
I've got to be able to get youindividually to take ownership
of it, not for all of it, butfor your portion of it.
If I can do that, what I'vedone is I've aligned the brains
in the room.
That's what I say.
First step is, if we're alllooking at this problem
differently, that I need to findthe best common denominator
among that experience so thatwhen I ask somebody, why are we
here, we get roughly the sameanswer.
Actually, that answer doesn'teven have to be perfectly
accurate, it just needs to be.
When I ask somebody, why are wehere, we get roughly the same
answer.
Right, and actually that answerdoesn't even have to be
perfectly accurate, it justneeds to be shared among that
group.
Obviously, the more accurate isthe better, but we want it to
be shared.
Then, when I get you to takeindividual ownership of that,
what you stop doing isexternalizing the source of why
we're here.
Remember we talked about changeis personal, it's individual.
I get you to look inward andsay how do I contribute and what
can I do differently, and howcan I take ownership of my own
change responsibility to now getus to a better place.
The third step is then to sayall right, now what is that
better place?
And how do we start to move andchange our patterns the same
patterns that got us here.
It's why the shared reality isso important.
How do we start to break thosepatterns?
Right, and, by the way, wedidn't set a goal to become in
the top 10%.
All that we did was said you'reat the bottom and in order to
get out of the bottom, we needto change the patterns that we
have.
And so, once you start gettingthat group of people to say,
here's four or five behaviorsthat we want to change, how do
we do that?
And since I've got a sharedunderstanding and I've got a
personal commitment, whathappens is those 40 people start
designing strategies to gochange those patterns.
The last step is getting othersinvolved and we call it creating
a movement.
Right, change is not a top-downexperience, it's a movement.
And they started talking topeople.
We would tell people hey, yourjob next week is to talk to
three people about what you'reworking on, and the week after
that is a new three people.
After six weeks they had talkedto everyone in the station and
by the time of about four monthslater, everyone knew that there
was something new happeninghere and they actually called
themselves the new Grand Gulf,which is the name of the station
, and they talk about timebefore and time after, and it's
really, really powerful stuff.
Mick Spiers (29:36):
This is a really powerful framework, Michael.
I really like it a lot.
And the very first step, theshared reality.
I think you will find thatpeople would come into that
first meeting thinking they knowwhat's going on, but they need
to deeply listen to each otherand have some perspective taking
to go.
Oh, that's interesting.
I was seeing this, but Michaelwas seeing this and George was
(29:58):
seeing this and Sally was seeingthis and it's that co-created
shared reality.
Now you're getting a richerpicture of the real state of
what's going on.
So the shared reality is reallygood.
The ownership andresponsibility of how did I
contribute to today's state andwhat can I do differently in the
future to get a differentresult.
And then, what is the sharedvision of?
(30:21):
What does it look like after wedo all of this activity, before
we start proliferating it withothers, and what behaviors will
get us to that shared vision ofthe future reality.
That's a very powerfulframework and everyone listening
at home, I think.
Well, first of all, get a copyof Michael's book.
(30:43):
phases that I've just described.
I use a little bit differentwords, but yeah, that's sort of
effectively how you can apply itto your own life as well.
Yeah, really good, all right.
So shared reality, ownershipand responsibility what does the
future look like and whatbehaviors will get there?
That's really good, michael,all right.
So I want to give you a chanceto talk more about the book.
(31:04):
You talk about sixscience-backed strategies to
transform your brain, body andbehavior.
What's the synopsis here?
Michael Lopez (31:10):
So I talked about three of them already Over the
last several years, going backto this idea that we needed to
have a different conversationaround change.
My time as an athlete workingin a number of different
companies, I wanted to reallyunderstand what's happening to
us at the microscopic level whenwe try to change.
I think there's value in that,not just because it gives us an
(31:33):
understanding of the mechanism,which is important because we
can use that to our advantagebut I think a lot of times we
tend to have negative sort ofinternal dialogue around failure
, not meeting our goals and thatsort of thing.
And I think what helps with thescience is that it kind of
depersonalizes a little bit ofit.
Oh, this is what's happeningwhen I try to do that.
(31:55):
This is why I get so frustrated, this is what I'm experiencing,
and it allows us to kind offeel a sense of I don't know
kinship with our fellow man, oflike, we all go through these
things.
Maybe there's different levelsto it, but each of these
dynamics, these sort of you knowscientific experiences or
things that are just part of ourshared collective human reality
(32:15):
, you know.
And then the last piece wasreally around this idea of how
do I use it, how do I put thosetools into practice?
And there's a quote that I saya lot, which is there's a
formula for change, but changeis not formulaic.
We've got to learn how to mixand match these Lego blocks or
these variables in this equationto kind of form our own
(32:37):
personalized guide, and so thatwas really the inspiration.
I actually started writing thebook about companies and
realized I need to take a stepback.
So I am working on another onethat'll be out maybe in 18
months or so, but it really isfor anyone who is trying to
accomplish a goal.
It doesn't have to be just inbusiness, it can be in your life
(32:58):
, in any dimension.
My hope is that it gives youthe tools to go accomplish all
the goals you've been maybetried and haven't succeeded, or
goals that you never thought of,that now are at your fingertips
because you've built this skillof change personalizes it a
(33:22):
little bit.
Mick Spiers (33:22):
This is why I study psychology, by the way to try
to make rational sense of whatis sometimes an irrational world
or irrational behavior, even myown behavior I'm talking about
here, not just externally, likeif I behave in a certain way, if
I go, ah okay, now I'm thesense-making of it.
When you make sense of thecurrent state, you can then make
sense of what you're going todo about it.
So you're really good, michael,all right.
Well, key question then there'sgoing to be a lot of people
(33:44):
listening to this and they mightfit anywhere on that spectrum
of individual transformationthrough to big company.
What's one step that you couldgive them?
What's the one baby step thatyou could give them to get them
to not be so fearful of changeand to lean into it a little bit
more?
Michael Lopez (34:00):
get them to not be so fearful of change and to
lean into it a little bit more.
You know, we talked about it, Imentioned this.
You know, among the six maybeit's like having a favorite kid
or something like that.
I mean, they're all importantin their own right.
We talked about this idea ofembracing stress.
There's demonized stress in waysthat limit our ability to meet
(34:23):
our goals and look just likeanything else.
There's levels to this as well.
We know that long-termemotional, physical, stress is
debilitating and it's importantto get help from someone who's
qualified to help you in thatsituation.
That's certainly not me inthose situations.
But acute, short-term,particularly self-induced stress
(34:45):
is essential for growth.
You know, muscles grow understress, bones grow under stress,
eyesight performs well understress and focus, and so all of
these things we learn understress.
You know, the same behavior orthe same almost hormonal
reaction that creates stress isthe same hormonal reaction
that's used when we're learningsomething new, and so for me, it
(35:08):
all starts with that, andthere's ways to get better at
this.
Right, there's the cold plungecraze.
I take a cold shower every day.
It sucks every time.
Right, it never gets better,but it's this idea that, on the
other side of this experience,is a version of me that will
feel more accomplished, morecapable to take on the next hard
(35:30):
thing.
And so, for me, you know, findsomething and it doesn't have to
be the biggest goal that youhave, and that's part of our
challenge with goals is we setthe goal that's in our face
every day.
That, maybe, is the most likenegatively salient right, maybe
something we've been strugglingwith for years, because it's
that thing we know we want tostop or change, but we just
can't.
Don't pick that one becausethere's a reason it's still
(35:54):
there, right?
It's tough.
Pick something that you know isjust beyond.
You know something new,something that you're a little
bit interested in learning aninstrument, learning a language,
something that is hard enoughfor you that you will struggle,
but not so hard that you'll giveup and put yourself
intentionally in that situation.
That's really the startingpoint, I think, of any change
(36:15):
journey, because what we'retrying to build is the skill of
change, right?
Mick Spiers (36:19):
Really good.
So leaning into the stress,building a michaeljlopez.
coach, of resilience, butstepping just outside your
comfort zone.
Here there's a thing called I'msure you're aware of it,
michael, but for the audiencethe Yerkes-Dodson curve, which
is the curve of stress toperformance, and with no stress
it's zero performance and zerochange.
With moderate stress ismoderate change.
(36:41):
With too much stress, youcapitulate right.
So you got to get it right.
I'm going to use another sportsmetaphor here.
I really need to work ondeveloping some non-sports
metaphors.
Michael Lopez (36:51):
That's all right, I like them.
Mick Spiers (36:53):
I play tennis, Mick .
I love tennis.
Right, and I'm somewherebetween a level four and a level
five tennis player on a scaleof one to seven.
Right, when I play againstlevel five tennis players, Be I
play my best tennis and I getbetter.
When I play against level threetennis players, I actually get
worse.
I actually play really badlyright.
So pushing myself just outsidemy comfort zone is level five
(37:15):
and I get better.
I'm not going to challengeRoger Federer tomorrow because
that would be embarrassing forboth of us.
Right, and I'm not going tolearn anything from that
experience.
Michael Lopez (37:28):
But just outside my comfort zone is where that
growth exists.
How does that sit with you?
No, I, I tell my son all thetime you can see there's a.
I played American football.
I played quarterback.
He plays quarterback.
He's way better than I ever was.
There's a picture behind me ofthe two of us superimposed
together.
And and I've told him his wholelife, the only way to get
better is to play people betterthan you, because you have to
adjust, right, you have to adapt, you have to try new things and
you have to learn to recoverfrom loss.
(37:52):
Right, you have to learn to.
You know, my daughter also playssports.
She rides horses, she playsflag football, she also is a
quarterback it's kind of a thingin our family and she had a
game on Sunday.
They started out on defense.
The other team scored on TheBecause, again, using the sports
analogy like let's go watch thetape right, what happened?
(38:25):
Where was my foot?
Why did I lose this point?
What did I assume about myopponent that maybe was wrong?
What do I need to work on?
Strength-wise or speed-wise orwhatever?
Right, you've got to get thatinformation into your brain and
then you've got to act on it.
And so, yeah, it absolutely istrue.
Mick Spiers (38:44):
And that comes beautifully back to our mistake
learning applied learning curveright.
So really good, All right,Thank you so much, Michael.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
I'd like to now take us to ourrapid round.
So these are the same fourquestions we ask all of our
guests.
So what's the one thing youknow now, Michael Lopez, that
you wish you knew when you were20?
Michael Lopez (39:04):
You know, a year and a half ago, two years ago, I
started my own company and Ihad always wanted to be an
entrepreneur.
I was a little bit afraid to doso.
I wish I had the knowledge andunderstanding that I could be
successful financially,economically, socially in
running my own company.
I wish I had done that reallydecades ago.
Now I'm very grateful for theexperiences that I've had
(39:26):
because it's led me here, so Icertainly don't regret any of it
.
But I always operated with amindset that there was safety in
working for a company.
My parents were very simplepeople so I thought, hey, you
get a good job, you work therefor your whole life and you're
good.
And of course, now I'm in amuch different space and I wish
(39:47):
I had learned that sooner.
Mick Spiers (39:49):
Yeah, all right, nice one, nice reflection.
What's your favorite book?
Michael Lopez (39:53):
I have so many favorite books.
Actually, one of them is rightbehind me, you'll see this book
called Outlive by Peter Attia.
It's really about the scienceand art of longevity and living
longer.
I'm 51, about to be 52 and havelittle kids, so that book has
really spoken to me in many ways, at least recently.
But the one I would have to saythe most just in terms of
(40:15):
longevity of my adulthood isMan's Search for Meaning by
Viktor Frankl.
It's a transformative book thatif you've never read it, you
absolutely need to.
Mick Spiers (40:26):
So I would say that one there's a powerful one
there around resilience.
And then tapping back into yourreason for living, your
motivation.
You spoke about how you'regoing to stay motivated at the
low times.
Well, there's a perfect examplewith Frankl.
Yeah, really good.
And what's your favorite quote?
Michael Lopez (40:44):
Yeah, we talked about that.
I actually have a new favoritequote which I just found
recently and I can't rememberhow I found it, but it's from
George Bernard Shaw.
I'll just read it.
It's a little long, but it's afamous one from him, which is I
want to be thoroughly used upwhen I die, for the harder I
work, the more I live.
I rejoice in life for its ownsake.
(41:04):
Life is no brief candle.
For me, it is a sort ofsplendid torch which I have got
a hold of for the moment and Iwant to make it burn as brightly
as possible before handing iton to future generations.
I find real meaning in that.
I feel like I'm just gettingstarted in my life in a lot of
ways and I'm always working onsomething and trying to build
(41:26):
and create and give, and I justlove that one.
It really speaks to me.
Mick Spiers (41:31):
Yeah, I love it and I can see how meaningful it is
for you.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat with us.
Finally, michael, how do peoplefind you?
If people are interested eitherfrom a corporate change point
of view through to individualtransformation, how do people
find you and take advantage ofyour work?
Michael Lopez (41:47):
Yeah, my website is a great place to start
michaeljlopezcoach Just a kindof nod to my coaching heritage
there.
You can find all of my socialmedia on there.
You can connect with me andcontact me.
I'm really big on.
I spend a my social media onthere.
You can connect with me andcontact me.
I'm really big on.
I spend a lot of time onLinkedIn, as I mentioned maybe I
mentioned I'm a top voice onLinkedIn, which I'm very proud
(42:08):
of.
I spend a lot of time writingabout change there, talking
about change.
I have a weekly LinkedIn Liveseries which has become a bit of
a quasi podcast, called TopVoice Tuesday, where I meet with
other top voices and we talkabout a range of contemporary
business issues.
It's just so many amazingpeople in that community, so
trying to give them a voice.
(42:29):
You can order my book on thewebsite, follow me on all my
other socials, but that's agreat place to start.
Everything can be found there.
Mick Spiers (42:38):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Michael.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom today and for sharing
your experience and giving usvery practical tips on how we
might lean into stress and leaninto change and to have that
resilience and persistence tosee the change effort through to
something that's meaningful.
Thank you so much.
Michael Lopez (42:58):
It's been great, nick.
I appreciate it, and if I couldleave your listeners with one
last thing, I would say that, aI hope you learned something new
the day before they closed thecasket, and B change isn't just
possible, it's necessary, andit's necessary throughout our
whole lives, and so my best toeveryone on their journey.
Mick Spiers (43:18):
Very powerful.
Thank you, Michael.
Wow, what an insightfulconversation with Michael Lopez.
If there's one thing I hope youtake from today, it's this
Change isn't something to manage, it's something to understand,
and when we truly understandwhat's happening in the brain
and the body during times ofchange, we unlock the power to
(43:38):
guide ourselves and others withcompassion, clarity and courage.
Michael reminded us thattransformation is not a checkbox
.
It's a practice.
It's something we show up forevery day, and as leaders, we
have a responsibility and aprivilege to go first, to model
change and to create theconditions where others feel
(44:01):
safe to evolve too.
If you found value in theepisode, please take a moment to
rate and review the show.
It helps us reach more peoplewho care about leadership.
That matters, and if you're notalready part of our growing
community, be sure to subscribeto the Leadership Project on
your favorite podcast platformand follow us on LinkedIn and
(44:22):
YouTube.
We've got more greatconversations coming your way.
In the next episode, it's goingto be a solo cast where I
reflect on the greatconversations we've had this
month.
I'll reflect on the last fourepisodes that we've had.
So until next time, keepleaning in, keep growing and
remember, as Simon Sinekfamously said leadership is not
(44:46):
about being in charge.
It's about taking care of thosein your charge.
Thank you for listening to TheLeadership Project, mickspiers.
com.
A huge call out to Faris Sedekfor his video editing of all of
our video content and to all ofthe team at TLP Joan Gozon,
(45:06):
Gerald Calibo and my amazingwife Sei Spiers.
I could not do this showwithout you.
Don't forget to subscribe toThe Leadership Project YouTube
channel, where we bring youinteresting videos each and
every week, and you can followus on social, particularly on
LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
Now, in the meantime, please dotake care, look out for each
(45:28):
other and join us on thisjourney as we learn together and
lead together.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com