Would you have fired Kanye?

In today's episode, we're diving into the ultra-complicated question: would you have fired Kanye? The question isn't as simple as you'd think. Here's why.

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Episode Transcript

Travis Thomas (00:00):
Ahoy legend.
Welcome to another episode ofthe team buffalo podcast. I'm
your host, Travis Thomas.
Today's episode is going to beabout a particularly topical and
really recent media topic arounda particular celebrity who will
name in a moment. And youprobably glean that already in
the title. But it's aninteresting one in that we don't

(00:22):
often talk about real examples,right? We will give you
situations where we can unpickit, I use experiences and things
you might have navigated, and Iknow because we've worked
together, and I've worked withothers and listen to this,
around the nuances of thosethings that we want to work
there. But this is interesting,because it's really about
unpicking and understanding.
Where do you draw the line?

(00:42):
Right? Where do you draw theline as leader to go? If I were
in that situation, I probablywouldn't do it or in that
situation, I don't know exactlywhat I would do. And it's easy
to sit on the sidelines and gooff probably the way I would
have done it, maybe not. Butthat's not what we're talking
about today. So today's episodeis about a particularly topical

(01:04):
thing. And that's around Kanye.
You see the stuff around Kanyelast week? You know, you made
some comments around. They wereanti semitic comments. There's
no debating that. But the bitthat becomes challenging and why
I think it's a really good topicfor today for you to get your
really complex thinking skillsinvolved as a leaders, it's easy
to sit on the sidelines and godrop him get him out of there.

(01:27):
But what if Kanye was your topperformer you think about added
us or Adidas For those playingin the States. Yee had a $2
billion deal with these guys.
They were generating massive,massive amounts of revenue. I
love added US products. I've gotmultiple pairs that if I'm not

(01:48):
in some sort of like vans orsomething else, I'm usually in a
pair of Editas. So they're greatshoes, right? They're known for
performing particularly well.
They good branding, goodreleases, and they've got a mega
star, they've done deals withBeyonce there, they've got a
good line, right? And they knowwhat they're doing. But people
immediately called for him to beremoved. And I think the
question you have to askyourself is where would you draw

(02:08):
the line. Now, the complexityhere, and the bit that a lot of
people don't think about ordon't give a $hit about because
it's too complicated. And theworld's easier if I just tell
people what I think they shoulddo, and they do it is that Comey
has been quite open that he hasmental health challenges. He's
been really upfront about notbeing properly medicated. He
shared the kind of trials thathe said, he said, a marital

(02:29):
breakdown, and he's no longer inthat relationship. And so
there's all these reallycomplicating personal and
psychological factors, you know,we're no longer in a point in
humanity, you know, and I have apsychological background, I do
MBA, so I understand the humanmeets business dimension really,
really well and work withclients a lot in that space. But
we're no longer a point inhistory and humanity where we

(02:50):
say, Oh, well, psychologicalproblems are not the same as
medical problems. They are.
They're clinically acceptedthings like depression, bipolar,
they are accepted as clinicaldiagnoses. So now we've got this
thing, right. So we've gotsomeone who has a clinical
psychological condition, who isaffecting their ability to make

(03:11):
good sense, you know, he'sspoken about the need for
medication not been onmedication. And then you've got
that tied now with he generatesa massive, massive amount of
value for shareholders and forthe brand, and for the people
involved in leadership, whobrought him on board and have
these really impressive deals.
So you've got this kind of Man,this guy generates a ton of
money, and the, oh, this isreally bad for the brand. And

(03:33):
the he's got some mental healthissues, he's been pretty open
and transparent. And if hewasn't a normal corporate
setting, that would have gonewell, but they wouldn't have
been able to quickly just likethat, particularly not here in
Australia, you know, fair worksand other rights that employees
have, where if they've signaledthat they have an issue, you
have a duty of care not to justdischarge them from that. Now,
that doesn't mean he would havestayed in that role. But he

(03:54):
surely would have just beenejected within two days, it just
wouldn't have happened that way.
So the question I have for youthen is, what would you do? How
would you unpick that I want youto take a second and really
think, you know, I, I've got theemotions, it's anti symmetric, I
don't believe he represents mybrand. But
let's say he did, let's say at apoint in time, he really

(04:15):
represented the brand. Heperformed phenomenally, but he's
having a personal breakdown.
He's no longer in therelationships, he's spiraling.
There's clear instances of himbeing out in public and not
really doing the right thing orbeing seen to be doing the right
thing. And even I have thisconundrum about where to cut it
off. And I think as leaders, youcan go well, that's an extreme
situation, but it's, it'sunlikely to be real. It's not

(04:36):
true. I mean, with the leaders Iwork with there, once you face
psychological challenges withtheir own team, there's people
who have a financial crises andthat affects the quality of
their work. There's then fastcomes on the back of that or the
breakdown of performance.
There's such an array of thingsthat affect the human condition
and how that plays out in yourbusiness and your organization

(04:59):
or not for profit. for whateveryou're in, that you have to stop
and go, well, where where isthat, and then where do my
values and ethics come intotension with the expectation of
shareholders, that'sparticularly challenging because
if a shareholder or a largegroup of shareholders go, I
don't want this, and I'm notgoing to allow it, or you're
going to pay a consequence, butthen you've got a larger group
of shareholders going, that'sfine, then you have an even

(05:22):
trickier kind of nuances to workthrough. So you compile all that
together. And I ask you, well,when's the last time you had to
face a particularly challengingpersonal situation for an
employee who was on your team?
Or who's in your department thatyou've had to manage? And then
how have you worked throughthat? And so I will weigh in
with what I think from an addedUS perspective, is that I think

(05:43):
they move too quickly. So Ithink, yes, they could have made
a statement or we do not supportor condone the opinions of Kanye
West and the things that hesaid, and we will use this as a
guidepost or a point of acatalytic event, to review our
engagement with Kanye, and whatthat looks like in the future. I
think that would have beenenough, you know, I'm not saying

(06:04):
let people cool off and drop it.
But to do things in the heat ofthe moment to not understand the
nuance of the person in thatsituation, and then to act
swiftly to jettison them.
Without understanding reallywhat that could mean, in the
long term. I think it'sproblematic. Now I'm not saying
added us doesn't know whatthey're doing. Of course, I
mean, I'm here doing thecoaching thing, they're over

(06:24):
there doing the apparel andfootwear thing. So I'm sure they
had a reason for that decision.
But what I do see a lot inbusinesses now is that we really
quickly want to distanceourselves from anything that
could potentially becontentious. And in doing that,
we neglect the human in thatprocess. And so by jettison ye
out of the way, and making roomfor this big void in their

(06:46):
commercial outcomes, they'veleft with a clean nose, but
potentially deep, deep cut totheir pockets, and the overall
experience of their customers.
So people loved his product. Soit's not even if you took his
face out of it, there werereally popular shoes they did
well they sell more for thanwhat you sell them for added us
can pump the price up and theystill sell out there a good
product. So now you've got thatextra dimension of not only is

(07:09):
he a good performer, he makes af*cking good product. So it's a
challenging one. Right. But Ithink the the lesson there for
leaders in the bit that I wouldsuggest that we need to spend
more time on is when you knowwhat decision is right move
quickly. But I think you needmore than a couple of days to
understand the deep implicationsof someone's mental health or
health challenges balanced bycommercial impetus balanced by a

(07:32):
stakeholder group. Now Kanye ata minimum, if he was still
involved would be expected toissue a formal apology, but be
expected to undergo some levelof support. So I think that's
the other thing is if we seethat people on our team are
having a breakdown or strugglingwith the things that are going
on, we can't just sit by andwatch that pan out. That's,
that's poor leadership to justsay, I'm gonna let you kind of

(07:54):
sort your own $hit out. And, youknow, good luck to you may the
odds be ever in your favor, Ithink it's really poor
performance to that as aleadership group. And now, as I
said, I understand there's acontractual arrangement with
Kanye, and he's not an employeeof added us, but he's a prize
winner. And I think to not havegone through that process is
potentially jeopardizing areally good arrangement or a

(08:15):
path to recovery for bothparties where they could have
gotten to a good place. We'veseen other celebrities, look at
the Tiger Woods scandals, andyou go back to others. And of
course, he didn't say anythinganti semitic, but was clearly
doing things that were untoward.
And there are some things you donot come back from. But there
are the things where we go,well, maybe there's a blueprint

(08:35):
back from this, or maybe wedon't understand it enough to be
calling that now. And I thinkit's really important. So if we
park EA for a moment, now thatwe've kind of got that out out
there in the open, the bits thatI've been highlighting for you
that I think are reallyimportant is to understand, when
I've got a performer whoperforms really well, whether
it's my top salesperson, orsomeone on my team who's
particularly strong at theirrole, but they've got some sort

(08:59):
of poor choice they've made orthey've done something really
catastrophic is to understandwhat are the implications for
today?
Who do I need to bring on site?
Or who do I need to be aware of?
Or who do I need to consultaround what that means for them?
So for example, the partiesimpacted by Kanye comments.
Third is what does it meancommercially? What do I need to

(09:20):
consider there? And fourth isreally what do I need to do for
this person? So even if we dopart way is to just discard the
human and go Well, good luck toyou, I hope you're okay. Is not
good leadership. It's reallypoor leadership. And I think
that's important to understandis that we do have a duty of
care, you know, I was on thetrain several months back and
there was this couple up frontof me going to work you know,

(09:43):
they're both in there kind ofcorporate where and I'm reading
book and going through notes forthe session, upcoming coaching
sessions and I saw an article inthe western giant and it was
talking about mental health andthe the call for mental health
to be treated more from a leafperspective in alignment with
physical health. and the husbandturns to the wife and he says, I

(10:03):
think kids these days, they justneed to suck it up. What
rubbish. Why should I pay forpeople who have mental health to
be looked after from a leafperspective? And I just thought,
how ridiculous like whatbackwards thinking, as I said
earlier, these are clearlythings that have been covered
off on where we're no longer ina realm where we can even
question if psychologicalconditions and health disorders

(10:25):
are actually disorders andpeople just taking the Mickey
Yes, like with anything likewith the flu or any people will
take advantage and there willalways be those but to write off
a whole portion of thepopulation who's struggling with
a real thing at peak pandemicpost pandemic burnouts,
recession, at our door, jobmobility, you know, all kinds of
technology, interconnectivitythat we don't necessarily want,

(10:47):
not being able to turn off workto go that people shouldn't be
having mental struggles in theback of that, I think is f*cking
idiotic. And I think really poornonsensical thinking in the back
of what should be a clear nod tothe value of giving people leave
when they need it to supporttheir mental health. So I
challenge you as a leader tothink about that Konya case
study and to understand well,how would I've treated someone

(11:10):
in a particularly similarengagement or even in my own
kind of one, look at those fourprinciples I shared of kind of
pulling that situation apart,and then to understand the duty
of care, really, on that fourthpoint that you have for those
performers. I'm not saying keeppoor performers around that you
if you've listened to me at all,for the last however many
episodes, I'm not in that camp,I'm around that balance and

(11:33):
actually a little bit moretowards Let's manage people to
the standards we expect withoutmicromanaging. So the point on
this was religious just go Ithink there's more complexity to
the situation than people areprepared to sit with and to
really deeply understand, and tounderstand that as a leader, I
think and I deeply believe thatyou have a responsibility to
look after the people aroundyou, and do as best you can

(11:55):
while balancing those commercialand shareholder requirements.
That's been today's episode ofthe Team Buffalo podcast. I've
been your host, Travis Thomas,and I look forward to seeing you
in the next episode tomorrow.
Have a kick a$$ day and keepbeing amazing.