How does one navigate the chaos of a natural disaster while ensuring cultural respect and effective communication? Join us as we dive into the compelling and heart-wrenching story of the Lahaina wildfire in Hawaii through the eyes of Michael Brogan, a seasoned public affairs expert. He recounts the sheer devastation he witnessed in Lahaina and the complex, multi-agency recovery efforts that ensued. Michael shares the challenges of communicating the EPA's mission in an environment where traditional information channels were obliterated, offering a vivid portrayal akin to his deployments in war zones.
With over three decades of experience in the Department of Defense, Veterans Administration, and the EPA , Michael's journey from childhood inspiration to achieving his dream role at the EPA in San Francisco in 2022 is nothing short of remarkable.
In another gripping segment, we spotlight the critical role of cultural training and sensitivity in emergency response, particularly in Hawaii. Michael discusses how mandatory cultural training, led by a local Hawaiian elder, was pivotal in ensuring respectful and effective operations. He provides insight into the emotional and political turmoil faced by local authorities and federal teams, stressing the importance of understanding, humility, and grace. Michael’s reflections on working with exhausted local staff underscore the human element in crisis management, making this episode an essential listen for anyone interested in emergency response and public affairs.
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:08):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
deliver that through interviews,storytelling and lessons
learned as shared fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
It's great to have you backwith us again today and I want
to welcome in my colleague, markMullen, who's here again.
(00:30):
Mark hi.
Marc Mullen (00:31):
Hello Tom, Happy to be here Looking forward to the
program today.
Tom Mueller (00:36):
Our guest today on the podcast is Michael Brogan,
who worked as a publicinformation officer during the
Lahaina incident in Hawaii.
Now you may recall that was amassive wildfire that consumed
that community on the island ofMaui and it just left the
(00:57):
community in tatters.
But it also created a number ofvery unique issues that public
information team and theemergency responders had to deal
with around the cultural,archaeological and historical
artifacts that are justeverywhere in that community.
(01:19):
So I want to welcome Michael tothe podcast.
Thanks for joining us today.
Michael Brogan (01:37):
Well, T om and Mark, it's really my pleasure to
be here today and to have achance to talk about what, for
me, was a very significantopportunity to be a part of the
response, to have a chance tohelp the wonderful people of
Maui recover from what wasreally just an incredibly
devastating fire.
Yeah, it was just a once in alifetime, once in a generation
opportunity.
Tom Mueller (01:55):
Michael, before we get into the details of working
the incident, can you just giveus a quick thumbnail of your
work history and background
Michael Brogan (02:13):
Yeah, interesting.
I spent about 30 years with theDepartment of Defense 24 of
those in uniform, working inpublic affairs, tv, radio and
then traditional public affairsas well.
And then I spent about threeyears with the Veterans
(02:35):
Administration as a publicaffairs officer, and that was in
Reno, N evada.
And then I actually was able tohave a lifelong dream come true
working for the EPA as a youngboy in the early 70s I'm kind of
showing my age, but folks mayremember that there was an ad
campaign that involved a cryingIndian.
(02:56):
It was the Keep AmericaBeautiful campaign and you know,
as a young boy, that made a bigimpression on me and that was
really the start of the wholeenvironmental movement and also
the birth of the EPA.
And, just like I said, it justkind of planted its seed and I
always wanted to work for theEPA twice, to live in San
(03:21):
Francisco as a younger boy andthen as a young man.
And so, you know, coming backhere after a career in the
military and working for the VA,it was just, you know, a dream
(03:42):
come true quite literally, and Ijoined the EPA in the summer of
2022.
Tom Mueller (03:45):
So you were just a year into your role with the EPA
when this horrific fire camethrough there on Maui.
I wonder if you can give us asense for what you were walking
into when you got the call andsaid hey, we need you to come to
Lahaina and support this effort.
(04:07):
Tell us a little bit about that.
What were you walking into?
Michael Brogan (04:12):
Yeah, I mean, first off, the EPA responded.
I think we had an initial teamon the ground within, I want to
say, four days of the fire.
I did not get on ground untilabout three weeks into it.
But you know, responding tothese kind of natural disasters
(04:34):
is part of the wheelhouse, ofwhat the Environmental
Protection Agency does.
It's just part of the nationalresponse system.
When I got there, we already hadabout 140 EPA members there and
our primary mission wasrecovery and removal of what we
(04:55):
describe as hazardous householdmaterials, which are, you know,
most people don't.
You don't really think about itall that much, but it's the
cleaning supplies that are inmost houses, you know the Lysols
and the Cloroxes and all thatstuff.
But Lahaina, I mean, asignificant part of that town,
(05:19):
had been literally wiped out.
The fire had just gone throughand burnt everything down, had
been literally wiped out.
The fire had just gone throughand burned everything down, and
so we had teams that were, youknow, going through and just
sorting through the ash torecover all this material.
And then, of course, there wasalso the commercial district as
well that we had to contend with.
(05:40):
And we weren't the only agencydoing this, you know we.
We had other federal agenciesthere as well the US Army, corps
of Engineers, small BusinessAdministration, the Red Cross.
You also had state stateagencies there as well.
There was this huge effort.
(06:01):
But you know, I went there aspart of the EPA emergency
response and I went there as thepublic information officer and
my job was to kind of gather upyou know what the communication
environment was like and let thepublic know what we were doing.
And it sounds, you know,speaking about it.
(06:25):
Now it sounds kind of like asimple undertaking, but
literally, when the town itselfis, it's, you know, all the
normal means of disseminatinginformation are destroyed.
It's not so simple.
(07:13):
Tom, f or anyone who's ever been to Lahaina, you
know we're all human beings,first and foremost, meetings
first and foremost.
And you know my time in um, inuniform, I I've deployed to war
zones and, uh, I it's.
It's not hyper hyperbole to saythat when I crested the hill
(07:36):
and caught my first sight of Llahaina, when I the first time I
flew in and drove in, itliterally took me back to my
deployments into war zones.
The devastation was as far as Icould see.
It took my breath away.
(08:00):
And I had been to Lahainapreviously, while I was in the
military in early 2000.
And so that was my frame ofreference.
And then what I saw, you know,after the fire I just literally
(08:21):
took my breath away and itbrought tears to my eyes.
I just the devastation was justutter.
And then you know, but youstill have a job to do and
you've got to focus on that job,that mission.
And you know we were living andworking.
You know we're staying at ahotel working.
(08:50):
You know we're staying at ahotel and the staff that's
working at the hotel, a lot ofthem have lost everything.
You know, I mean the hotelsemploy locals and a lot of the
locals literally had theirhouses burnt down, and so you
feel that and you see it and itaffects you and I'm glad that I
was exposed to that because itreally I know for a fact that it
(09:16):
affected the entire EPA team.
It affected everybody who waspart of this response and it
really just gave us clarity ofpurpose in what we were doing,
seeing up close and personal andhaving a chance to speak and we
did speak with the familymembers of the people that
(09:41):
suffered through this.
It just, you know, we workedlong hours, but those long hours
paled in comparison to what,you know, the people had
suffered and we just we foundstrength and inspiration in in
just being part of that andsharing with them their, their
(10:02):
experiences.
Marc Mullen (10:04):
So I think many times as we roll into a response
, we put on a protective veneer.
We're there to do a job and wefocus on the words between the
lines and the graphics.
But it sounds like it wasinescapable in this case that
you weren't there just to talkto media.
You were there to interact andcommune with every person that
(10:25):
you came in contact.
That was much more personal.
Michael Brogan (10:30):
Yeah, you know, you, I mean, these are our
fellow Americans and, like Isaid, the devastation, just you
know, we're all human beings and, yes, you've, you've got to you
(10:54):
.
You want to put on your armorand just focus on the mission at
hand and, at the end of the day, you want to just decompress.
But, my god, you know, um, youcan't do that and and, as a
matter of fact, I I didn't wantto do that because it made me a
(11:15):
better public informationofficer and it really informed
my ability to better understandand better do my job, because it
gave me insight into the uniquecultural aspects of the
Hawaiian culture that I neededto understand it and appreciate
(11:37):
in order to communicateeffectively.
Because there is so muchuniqueness to Hawaiian culture,
to Maui culture, that if youdon't have insight into that and
if you don't respect that, andif you don't have insight into
that, and if you don't respectthat and if you don't leverage
that uniqueness, you're notgoing to be effective in trying
(11:58):
to find ways to effectivelycommunicate and effectively to
inform the local populace aboutwhat it is you're doing to try
and bring relief to And, like Isaid, you know the communication
landscape had been totallywiped out because of the fire,
(12:20):
and so when there's aninformation vacuum, it's going
to be filled.
And what I discovered three youknow, when I landed the first
time three weeks after the firewas that there was a lot of
misinformation filling thatvacuum.
Understandably so, andespecially when you have federal
(12:40):
agencies descending.
You know, and we have the bestintentions, but we're so focused
on getting to work that itdoesn't matter what your
intentions are.
If people don't reallyunderstand what it is you're
doing, it's easy for that to bemisinterpreted.
And so that's where, like, myjob comes in is to help explain
(13:06):
what it is we're doing, what youknow, and, like the cultural
aspect, it was such a challenge,especially early on, because,
like in Hawaiian culture, familyis everything.
if you think about it, the ashwell, that ash contained the
(13:27):
remains of loved ones.
The remains of loved ones, youknow, not only did it have wood
and metal and the remains ofhouses and commercial entities
and cars and everything, butalso the remains of loved ones.
And here we are having to gothrough all this ash looking for
(13:57):
, you know, household hazardousmaterial.
But we had to find a way to dothat in accordance with local
cultural practices.
And so how do we do that?
Well, the smart way of doingthat was to listen to the locals
, listen to the elders, seekguidance from the locals, and we
(14:19):
did that.
But we wouldn't have known todo that had we just gone in
there and not been culturallyattuned to that need.
Tom Mueller (14:39):
That's a huge aspect of this response that
most of us who would deploy toan incident somewhere in the
United States, you know youdon't really have to deal with
that much.
You can really partitionyourself off a little bit and
focus on the job, but every day,with the role you were in, you
were in people's homes, right,and so this was a factor that
(15:00):
you had to deal with every day.
I understand there was actualcultural orientation for
responders who were coming in tosort of help them understand
some of the issues that you'vejust highlighted f or us.
They are the sensitivity offamily and remains and the
(15:20):
cultural issues that are all soimportant there.
Michael Brogan (15:26):
Let me just touch upon one aspect that I
think is really, reallyimportant and it harkens back to
my experiences being in themilitary, and anybody who's been
in the military will understand, like anytime, whether we're
talking about a deployment orjust being stationed in an
(15:47):
overseas environment.
Part of your in processing isyou will go to a class or
classes that involve culturaltraining right, it's, it's a.
You get inculcated and educatedon the local culture so that
you're at least initiallyexposed in in in, so you don't
(16:11):
make a fool of yourself and youunderstand what the expectations
and the norms of behavior are.
We did that with everybody whowas on the EPA team.
It was mandatory training whenthey arrived and some folks were
just doing two-week rotations,others were doing 30 days, but
(16:32):
everybody that rotated in on theEPA team went through that
training and that training wasprovided by a local elder
Hawaiian elder and it wasmandatory and it was tracked.
So everybody, everybody gotthat training Because it was so
important to EPA leadership andit was so important from the top
(16:57):
on down that we wanted to besure that we were in tune with
the local sensibilities and thatwe were following the local
customs and traditions as wewent about our mission Because
we understood we weren't.
The mission was not going tosucceed if we were not, if we
(17:21):
were not acting in partnershipwith the locals it's easy to
tell that this profoundlyimpacted you.
Marc Mullen (17:31):
How does that translate and what would you
tell somebody first of all thatwas having to go to that
response and what would youadvise them as part of your own
onboarding with them?
But second, how do you takethat now and apply it to perish
the term, but a more limited ormore normal response, how does
(17:55):
that translate to PIO andmembers of a joint information
center to be able to do theircommunication job better with
real affected people?
Michael Brogan (18:07):
Again and I'm going to sound like a broken
record right, because I'll refera lot to like my DOD training.
I got some fantastic publicinformation officer, public
affairs officer training in theDOD.
You know you've got to know theenvironment that you're
operating in and part of thatknowing the environment is
(18:27):
knowing the cultural environmentthat you're operating in, is
knowing the cultural environmentthat you're operating in.
I think, like with Hawaii,hawaii is such a unique culture
within the construct of theUnited States.
It's not.
I mean, there's a lot of places, lots of states within the
(18:47):
United States that have uniquecultures.
Alaska would be another one.
If you're operating in triballands within the United States
that have unique cultures,alaska would be another one.
If you're operating in triballands within the United States,
that would be another one.
But just like pulling back alittle bit, you definitely want
to understand the culture inwhich you're operating.
Perhaps you don't have to haveit to a certain degree, maybe
(19:10):
you can dial it back a littlebit, but that needs to be part
of your overall site picture,going into whatever area that
you're going to be operating.
I just think in the case ofHawaii, you really had to dial
it up to the nth degree, youknow.
But yeah, that's justunderstanding the culture.
(19:32):
You've got to factor theculture into whatever JIC
you're setting up.
Tom Mueller (19:41):
I want to take you more into operational mode now a
little bit, M ichael, andthinking about.
You know, as I kind of rememberhearing the early news stories
around this, there was lots ofissues being raised about
alerting the public, and youknow why wasn't there more
(20:02):
warning?
And there were all kinds ofpolitical issues that seemed to
be just swirling around thisresponse.
So you step into a unifiedcommand, setting a joint
information center, and how wasthe environment there?
And you know, did you feel anyof that?
(20:25):
How did you work through it?
J
Michael Brogan (20:28):
Yeah, boy, you hit it on the head.
I mean, I, you know Maui County, Hawaii, each island it's like
a county, right.
So Maui County itself had notseen a natural disaster like
this, if memory serves, I mean,I think it was for well over 20
(20:50):
years.
So they, by the time I gotthere, they'd been dealing with
this for three plus weeks, andit's a small staff to begin with
and they were running on fumes.
They'd been at this 24-7.
By the time I got there, theydid have a unified command
(21:10):
ostensibly stood up, you know,and, like I said, there were
federal agencies that were partof the JIC along with state, but
there was, I think they were.
You know, especially at thecounty level, there was a lot of
(21:30):
shell shock and the federalpartners, you know, we actually
talked about it amongstourselves.
We understood that we had to.
The politics side of it was notours, that was not ours to own.
(21:50):
We had to stay focused on theoperational stuff.
That's what we owned, right,and the politics side,
unfortunately, was somethingthat the county had to deal with
along with the state.
So the county did a lot ofshepherding back to Honolulu,
back to this state, and you know, um, I used the the term grace
(22:18):
a lot with my chick partners andmy uh, federal partners, just
in discussions amongst ourselves, just to remind everybody that
we have to approach this allwith a sense of grace and a
sense of humility, because I Iknow what it's like to be
(22:42):
operating on on empty for anextended period of time and the
county had been operating onempty for a long time and they
were just overwhelmed, sotempers were short, people were
(23:09):
impatient, those kind of things.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I meanthey.
You know Hawaiian culture is sobeautiful, it is some of the
most.
It encompasses some of the mostgracious human characteristics
you'll ever want to be a part of, and so that was just like my
(23:31):
North, my North star.
I just always wanted to keepthat in mind as I, as I went
through my days and and justkind of let things go and stayed
focused on the mission at handand understanding that I was
dealing with a lot of tiredpeople.
I was dealing with a lot oftired people.
I wanted to do what I could tohelp and not, you know, not let
(23:59):
not let the ego get in the way.
Tom Mueller (24:05):
Y ou're not saying a lot by what you're saying
there, M michael, in terms ofyou know what was going on in
that JIC, in that overallunified command response and and
, of course, when you step backand look at it, an entire
community had been decimated.
There were more than 100 peoplekilled in that community and
just the tragedy of people notbeing able to escape from the
(24:26):
flames and the fire, and there'sjust so much for people in
(24:50):
leadership positions to processIn the meantime, you've got to
communicate, you've got to getthe job done.
D id each agency do its ownthing to keep communications
moving .
Michael Brogan (25:18):
In this case, it was not that tightly of an
operationalized JIC like othersthat I've been a part of in
previous scenarios, andunderstandably so.
The agencies we would operateindependently as much as
possible to minimize the burdenon, say, the county, and then we
(25:44):
would utilize the traditionalJIC channels when absolutely
necessary, channels whenabsolutely necessary, and I
think that was just a way tokind of divide and conquer
understanding the operationalenvironment that we were in,
given the situation, and I foundthat it was a good and
(26:08):
effective compromise thatallowed folks to get some sleep
and some rest much needed,certainly on the local side
while still meeting, you know,the operational needs of the
agencies and the needs also ofthe media, both local media as
(26:30):
well as national andinternational.
I mean it was we were gettinginquiries from all over the
world.
Tom Mueller (26:41):
That's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks for joining us today.
If you like what you're hearing, then please like and subscribe
to the podcast and please tellyour friends and colleagues
about us as well.
We'll see you again soon onanother episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
deliver that through interviews,storytelling and lessons
learned as shared fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
It's great to have you backwith us again today and I want
to welcome in my colleague, markMullen, who's here again.
(00:30):
Mark hi.
Marc Mullen (00:31):
Hello Tom, Happy to be here Looking forward to the
program today.
Tom Mueller (00:36):
Our guest today on the podcast is Michael Brogan,
who worked as a publicinformation officer during the
Lahaina incident in Hawaii.
Now you may recall that was amassive wildfire that consumed
that community on the island ofMaui and it just left the
(00:57):
community in tatters.
But it also created a number ofvery unique issues that public
information team and theemergency responders had to deal
with around the cultural,archaeological and historical
artifacts that are justeverywhere in that community.
(01:19):
So I want to welcome Michael tothe podcast.
Thanks for joining us today.
Michael Brogan (01:37):
Well, T om and Mark, it's really my pleasure to
be here today and to have achance to talk about what, for
me, was a very significantopportunity to be a part of the
response, to have a chance tohelp the wonderful people of
Maui recover from what wasreally just an incredibly
devastating fire.
Yeah, it was just a once in alifetime, once in a generation
opportunity.
Tom Mueller (01:55):
Michael, before we get into the details of working
the incident, can you just giveus a quick thumbnail of your
work history and background
Michael Brogan (02:13):
Yeah, interesting.
I spent about 30 years with theDepartment of Defense 24 of
those in uniform, working inpublic affairs, tv, radio and
then traditional public affairsas well.
And then I spent about threeyears with the Veterans
(02:35):
Administration as a publicaffairs officer, and that was in
Reno, N evada.
And then I actually was able tohave a lifelong dream come true
working for the EPA as a youngboy in the early 70s I'm kind of
showing my age, but folks mayremember that there was an ad
campaign that involved a cryingIndian.
(02:56):
It was the Keep AmericaBeautiful campaign and you know,
as a young boy, that made a bigimpression on me and that was
really the start of the wholeenvironmental movement and also
the birth of the EPA.
And, just like I said, it justkind of planted its seed and I
always wanted to work for theEPA twice, to live in San
(03:21):
Francisco as a younger boy andthen as a young man.
And so, you know, coming backhere after a career in the
military and working for the VA,it was just, you know, a dream
(03:42):
come true quite literally, and Ijoined the EPA in the summer of
2022.
Tom Mueller (03:45):
So you were just a year into your role with the EPA
when this horrific fire camethrough there on Maui.
I wonder if you can give us asense for what you were walking
into when you got the call andsaid hey, we need you to come to
Lahaina and support this effort.
(04:07):
Tell us a little bit about that.
What were you walking into?
Michael Brogan (04:12):
Yeah, I mean, first off, the EPA responded.
I think we had an initial teamon the ground within, I want to
say, four days of the fire.
I did not get on ground untilabout three weeks into it.
But you know, responding tothese kind of natural disasters
(04:34):
is part of the wheelhouse, ofwhat the Environmental
Protection Agency does.
It's just part of the nationalresponse system.
When I got there, we already hadabout 140 EPA members there and
our primary mission wasrecovery and removal of what we
(04:55):
describe as hazardous householdmaterials, which are, you know,
most people don't.
You don't really think about itall that much, but it's the
cleaning supplies that are inmost houses, you know the Lysols
and the Cloroxes and all thatstuff.
But Lahaina, I mean, asignificant part of that town,
(05:19):
had been literally wiped out.
The fire had just gone throughand burnt everything down, had
been literally wiped out.
The fire had just gone throughand burned everything down, and
so we had teams that were, youknow, going through and just
sorting through the ash torecover all this material.
And then, of course, there wasalso the commercial district as
well that we had to contend with.
(05:40):
And we weren't the only agencydoing this, you know we.
We had other federal agenciesthere as well the US Army, corps
of Engineers, small BusinessAdministration, the Red Cross.
You also had state stateagencies there as well.
There was this huge effort.
(06:01):
But you know, I went there aspart of the EPA emergency
response and I went there as thepublic information officer and
my job was to kind of gather upyou know what the communication
environment was like and let thepublic know what we were doing.
And it sounds, you know,speaking about it.
(06:25):
Now it sounds kind of like asimple undertaking, but
literally, when the town itselfis, it's, you know, all the
normal means of disseminatinginformation are destroyed.
It's not so simple.
(07:13):
Tom, f or anyone who's ever been to Lahaina, you
know we're all human beings,first and foremost, meetings
first and foremost.
And you know my time in um, inuniform, I I've deployed to war
zones and, uh, I it's.
It's not hyper hyperbole to saythat when I crested the hill
(07:36):
and caught my first sight of Llahaina, when I the first time I
flew in and drove in, itliterally took me back to my
deployments into war zones.
The devastation was as far as Icould see.
It took my breath away.
(08:00):
And I had been to Lahainapreviously, while I was in the
military in early 2000.
And so that was my frame ofreference.
And then what I saw, you know,after the fire I just literally
(08:21):
took my breath away and itbrought tears to my eyes.
I just the devastation was justutter.
And then you know, but youstill have a job to do and
you've got to focus on that job,that mission.
And you know we were living andworking.
You know we're staying at ahotel working.
(08:50):
You know we're staying at ahotel and the staff that's
working at the hotel, a lot ofthem have lost everything.
You know, I mean the hotelsemploy locals and a lot of the
locals literally had theirhouses burnt down, and so you
feel that and you see it and itaffects you and I'm glad that I
was exposed to that because itreally I know for a fact that it
(09:16):
affected the entire EPA team.
It affected everybody who waspart of this response and it
really just gave us clarity ofpurpose in what we were doing,
seeing up close and personal andhaving a chance to speak and we
did speak with the familymembers of the people that
(09:41):
suffered through this.
It just, you know, we workedlong hours, but those long hours
paled in comparison to what,you know, the people had
suffered and we just we foundstrength and inspiration in in
just being part of that andsharing with them their, their
(10:02):
experiences.
Marc Mullen (10:04):
So I think many times as we roll into a response
, we put on a protective veneer.
We're there to do a job and wefocus on the words between the
lines and the graphics.
But it sounds like it wasinescapable in this case that
you weren't there just to talkto media.
You were there to interact andcommune with every person that
(10:25):
you came in contact.
That was much more personal.
Michael Brogan (10:30):
Yeah, you know, you, I mean, these are our
fellow Americans and, like Isaid, the devastation, just you
know, we're all human beings and, yes, you've, you've got to you
(10:54):
.
You want to put on your armorand just focus on the mission at
hand and, at the end of the day, you want to just decompress.
But, my god, you know, um, youcan't do that and and, as a
matter of fact, I I didn't wantto do that because it made me a
(11:15):
better public informationofficer and it really informed
my ability to better understandand better do my job, because it
gave me insight into the uniquecultural aspects of the
Hawaiian culture that I neededto understand it and appreciate
(11:37):
in order to communicateeffectively.
Because there is so muchuniqueness to Hawaiian culture,
to Maui culture, that if youdon't have insight into that and
if you don't respect that, andif you don't have insight into
that, and if you don't respectthat and if you don't leverage
that uniqueness, you're notgoing to be effective in trying
(11:58):
to find ways to effectivelycommunicate and effectively to
inform the local populace aboutwhat it is you're doing to try
and bring relief to And, like Isaid, you know the communication
landscape had been totallywiped out because of the fire,
(12:20):
and so when there's aninformation vacuum, it's going
to be filled.
And what I discovered three youknow, when I landed the first
time three weeks after the firewas that there was a lot of
misinformation filling thatvacuum.
Understandably so, andespecially when you have federal
(12:40):
agencies descending.
You know, and we have the bestintentions, but we're so focused
on getting to work that itdoesn't matter what your
intentions are.
If people don't reallyunderstand what it is you're
doing, it's easy for that to bemisinterpreted.
And so that's where, like, myjob comes in is to help explain
(13:06):
what it is we're doing, what youknow, and, like the cultural
aspect, it was such a challenge,especially early on, because,
like in Hawaiian culture, familyis everything.
if you think about it, the ashwell, that ash contained the
(13:27):
remains of loved ones.
The remains of loved ones, youknow, not only did it have wood
and metal and the remains ofhouses and commercial entities
and cars and everything, butalso the remains of loved ones.
And here we are having to gothrough all this ash looking for
(13:57):
, you know, household hazardousmaterial.
But we had to find a way to dothat in accordance with local
cultural practices.
And so how do we do that?
Well, the smart way of doingthat was to listen to the locals
, listen to the elders, seekguidance from the locals, and we
(14:19):
did that.
But we wouldn't have known todo that had we just gone in
there and not been culturallyattuned to that need.
Tom Mueller (14:39):
That's a huge aspect of this response that
most of us who would deploy toan incident somewhere in the
United States, you know youdon't really have to deal with
that much.
You can really partitionyourself off a little bit and
focus on the job, but every day,with the role you were in, you
were in people's homes, right,and so this was a factor that
(15:00):
you had to deal with every day.
I understand there was actualcultural orientation for
responders who were coming in tosort of help them understand
some of the issues that you'vejust highlighted f or us.
They are the sensitivity offamily and remains and the
(15:20):
cultural issues that are all soimportant there.
Michael Brogan (15:26):
Let me just touch upon one aspect that I
think is really, reallyimportant and it harkens back to
my experiences being in themilitary, and anybody who's been
in the military will understand, like anytime, whether we're
talking about a deployment orjust being stationed in an
(15:47):
overseas environment.
Part of your in processing isyou will go to a class or
classes that involve culturaltraining right, it's, it's a.
You get inculcated and educatedon the local culture so that
you're at least initiallyexposed in in in, so you don't
(16:11):
make a fool of yourself and youunderstand what the expectations
and the norms of behavior are.
We did that with everybody whowas on the EPA team.
It was mandatory training whenthey arrived and some folks were
just doing two-week rotations,others were doing 30 days, but
(16:32):
everybody that rotated in on theEPA team went through that
training and that training wasprovided by a local elder
Hawaiian elder and it wasmandatory and it was tracked.
So everybody, everybody gotthat training Because it was so
important to EPA leadership andit was so important from the top
(16:57):
on down that we wanted to besure that we were in tune with
the local sensibilities and thatwe were following the local
customs and traditions as wewent about our mission Because
we understood we weren't.
The mission was not going tosucceed if we were not, if we
(17:21):
were not acting in partnershipwith the locals it's easy to
tell that this profoundlyimpacted you.
Marc Mullen (17:31):
How does that translate and what would you
tell somebody first of all thatwas having to go to that
response and what would youadvise them as part of your own
onboarding with them?
But second, how do you takethat now and apply it to perish
the term, but a more limited ormore normal response, how does
(17:55):
that translate to PIO andmembers of a joint information
center to be able to do theircommunication job better with
real affected people?
Michael Brogan (18:07):
Again and I'm going to sound like a broken
record right, because I'll refera lot to like my DOD training.
I got some fantastic publicinformation officer, public
affairs officer training in theDOD.
You know you've got to know theenvironment that you're
operating in and part of thatknowing the environment is
(18:27):
knowing the cultural environmentthat you're operating in, is
knowing the cultural environmentthat you're operating in.
I think, like with Hawaii,hawaii is such a unique culture
within the construct of theUnited States.
It's not.
I mean, there's a lot of places, lots of states within the
(18:47):
United States that have uniquecultures.
Alaska would be another one.
If you're operating in triballands within the United States
that have unique cultures,alaska would be another one.
If you're operating in triballands within the United States,
that would be another one.
But just like pulling back alittle bit, you definitely want
to understand the culture inwhich you're operating.
Perhaps you don't have to haveit to a certain degree, maybe
(19:10):
you can dial it back a littlebit, but that needs to be part
of your overall site picture,going into whatever area that
you're going to be operating.
I just think in the case ofHawaii, you really had to dial
it up to the nth degree, youknow.
But yeah, that's justunderstanding the culture.
(19:32):
You've got to factor theculture into whatever JIC
you're setting up.
Tom Mueller (19:41):
I want to take you more into operational mode now a
little bit, M ichael, andthinking about.
You know, as I kind of rememberhearing the early news stories
around this, there was lots ofissues being raised about
alerting the public, and youknow why wasn't there more
(20:02):
warning?
And there were all kinds ofpolitical issues that seemed to
be just swirling around thisresponse.
So you step into a unifiedcommand, setting a joint
information center, and how wasthe environment there?
And you know, did you feel anyof that?
(20:25):
How did you work through it?
J
Michael Brogan (20:28):
Yeah, boy, you hit it on the head.
I mean, I, you know Maui County, Hawaii, each island it's like
a county, right.
So Maui County itself had notseen a natural disaster like
this, if memory serves, I mean,I think it was for well over 20
(20:50):
years.
So they, by the time I gotthere, they'd been dealing with
this for three plus weeks, andit's a small staff to begin with
and they were running on fumes.
They'd been at this 24-7.
By the time I got there, theydid have a unified command
(21:10):
ostensibly stood up, you know,and, like I said, there were
federal agencies that were partof the JIC along with state, but
there was, I think they were.
You know, especially at thecounty level, there was a lot of
(21:30):
shell shock and the federalpartners, you know, we actually
talked about it amongstourselves.
We understood that we had to.
The politics side of it was notours, that was not ours to own.
(21:50):
We had to stay focused on theoperational stuff.
That's what we owned, right,and the politics side,
unfortunately, was somethingthat the county had to deal with
along with the state.
So the county did a lot ofshepherding back to Honolulu,
back to this state, and you know, um, I used the the term grace
(22:18):
a lot with my chick partners andmy uh, federal partners, just
in discussions amongst ourselves, just to remind everybody that
we have to approach this allwith a sense of grace and a
sense of humility, because I Iknow what it's like to be
(22:42):
operating on on empty for anextended period of time and the
county had been operating onempty for a long time and they
were just overwhelmed, sotempers were short, people were
(23:09):
impatient, those kind of things.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and I meanthey.
You know Hawaiian culture is sobeautiful, it is some of the
most.
It encompasses some of the mostgracious human characteristics
you'll ever want to be a part of, and so that was just like my
(23:31):
North, my North star.
I just always wanted to keepthat in mind as I, as I went
through my days and and justkind of let things go and stayed
focused on the mission at handand understanding that I was
dealing with a lot of tiredpeople.
I was dealing with a lot oftired people.
I wanted to do what I could tohelp and not, you know, not let
(23:59):
not let the ego get in the way.
Tom Mueller (24:05):
Y ou're not saying a lot by what you're saying
there, M michael, in terms ofyou know what was going on in
that JIC, in that overallunified command response and and
, of course, when you step backand look at it, an entire
community had been decimated.
There were more than 100 peoplekilled in that community and
just the tragedy of people notbeing able to escape from the
(24:26):
flames and the fire, and there'sjust so much for people in
(24:50):
leadership positions to processIn the meantime, you've got to
communicate, you've got to getthe job done.
D id each agency do its ownthing to keep communications
moving .
Michael Brogan (25:18):
In this case, it was not that tightly of an
operationalized JIC like othersthat I've been a part of in
previous scenarios, andunderstandably so.
The agencies we would operateindependently as much as
possible to minimize the burdenon, say, the county, and then we
(25:44):
would utilize the traditionalJIC channels when absolutely
necessary, channels whenabsolutely necessary, and I
think that was just a way tokind of divide and conquer
understanding the operationalenvironment that we were in,
given the situation, and I foundthat it was a good and
(26:08):
effective compromise thatallowed folks to get some sleep
and some rest much needed,certainly on the local side
while still meeting, you know,the operational needs of the
agencies and the needs also ofthe media, both local media as
(26:30):
well as national andinternational.
I mean it was we were gettinginquiries from all over the
world.
Tom Mueller (26:41):
That's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks for joining us today.
If you like what you're hearing, then please like and subscribe
to the podcast and please tellyour friends and colleagues
about us as well.
We'll see you again soon onanother episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
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