February 26, 2025 • 28 mins
Discover the critical role of the Family Liaison Officer in search and rescue operations with our guest, Moose Mutlow, a seasoned expert in the field. Moose sheds light on how this pivotal role serves as the communication lifeline between the incident commander and the families of missing persons, particularly in the challenging landscapes of Yosemite National Park. Through Moose's experience, learn how FLOs help navigate the emotional labyrinth of high-stress missions, ensuring families are kept informed with empathy and precision. We explore the FLO's unique position amidst varied stakeholders, underlining the need for a compassionate and objective communication strategy that bridges families with the search process.
Reach Moose Mutlow at moosemutlow.com or via LinkedIn.
Find his books on Amazon here:
Email Tom: Tom@leadinginacrisis.com
Email Marc: Marcmullenccc@gmail.com
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Moose Mutlow (00:02):
I like the idea of the family liaison officer
being the incident commander'srepresentative to the family.
Quite often there's a breakdownon incidents or missions.
You're focused on trying toresolve a missing person and
trying to scale up to do theappropriate search.
Sometimes the family is justkept on a back burner.
What the family liaison officerdoes is it actually pulls it up
(00:24):
, escalates it to a point whereit has a direct but controlled
line to the incident commanderso that information can flow
both ways.
Tom Mueller (00:34):
That clip you just heard is from our guest today
who's an expert in search andrescue operations around the
Yosemite National Park here inthe US.
A bit more detail on our guestin just a moment and we just
have one quick recognition itemfor us today.
This podcast has beenrecognized by the folks at
(00:55):
Feedspot as the number 13podcast in the state of Texas
for management podcasts.
Again, that's the good folksover at Feedspot who aggregate
global media outlets and contentcreators, making us easier to
find for others who are lookingfor those kinds of services.
So thanks to the folks atFeedspot for that recognition
(01:18):
for the podcast today.
I'm Tom Mueller, with me againtoday, my friend and co-host,
mark Mullin.
Our guest today is Moose Mutlow, who since 2002, has been a
member and a senior trainer forYosemite Search and Rescue.
One of the busiest search andrescue operations in the world,
(01:40):
yosemite National Parkentertains nearly 4 million
visitors a year.
Moose has two books to hiscredit, both written around his
experiences in the search andrescue field, one of which
focuses more specifically aroundthe family liaison officer role
.
Now, neither Mark or I wereparticularly familiar with
(02:01):
family liaison role from ourcrisis experiences, mostly in
the corporate settings, so it'squite an educational
conversation with Moose.
So, moose, welcome to thepodcast.
Moose Mutlow (02:14):
Thank you very much for having me along.
Tom Mueller (02:17):
Now you have.
You've got a kind of aninteresting background.
You've worked in the outdoorspace for really your whole
adult life and obviously you'vedeveloped a deep passion for the
outdoor space, for hiking, youknow, and you've been doing
search and rescue for a longtime.
I was fascinated just to kindof tap your brain earlier when
(02:38):
we spoke around the whole familyliaison officer role, because
when you get into search andrescue missions oftentimes
there's negative outcomes fromthose search and rescues and so
the family liaison officerbecomes quite critical.
In that, tell us a little bit,what does that officer do and
(03:00):
what are those big challenges?
Moose Mutlow (03:02):
I like the idea of the family liaison officer
being the incident commander'srepresentative to the family.
Quite often there's a breakdownon incidents or missions.
You're focused on trying toresolve a missing person and
trying to scale up to do theappropriate search.
Sometimes the family is justkept on a back burner.
What the family liaison officerdoes is it actually pulls it up
(03:24):
, escalates it to a point whereit has a direct but controlled
line to the incident commanderso that information can flow
both ways.
Essentially, by having thatposition work effectively, you
avoid that moment on media wherea family says we don't know
(03:45):
what's going on and that's thetelling point that you haven't
fully integrated them into somesort of compassionate,
empathetic and objectivecommunication strategy.
Marc Mullen (03:54):
So does that?
Then it sounds like it'sanother stakeholder group, as is
media or elected officials andso on.
So do you fit in liaison or isit an independent support box in
the org chart?
Moose Mutlow (04:08):
So if you look at the org chart, quite often it'll
see PIO and liaison andactually the family liaison is
hidden behind that.
It should be a separate one,and that brought up to the same
level of accessibility toinformation.
Tom Mueller (04:22):
Moose, I know when we've spoken before you've
talked about some of the casesthat you've worked in search and
rescue.
I wonder if there's a story ortwo you could share with us
around incidents you've workedin and how does the family
liaison officer engage withsearch and rescue teams?
(04:42):
Got family members around?
What is that dynamic like?
Moose Mutlow (04:46):
Well, the key piece is to have accessibility
to information.
You're sitting in all thebriefs.
You're able to talk to theplanning chief about what's
going on with the action plan.
You're starting to gauge howthe IC is moving forward and
then you're taking thatinformation and delivering it in
a way that a family can digestFor an extended assignment.
(05:08):
You're going to have, reallyearly on, a lot of contact with
the family.
You might be talking with themevery other hour to start to
give them an idea about what'shappening out there.
As you scale up and put morefeet on the ground and as it
goes through to that point ofactually not seeing something
after two or three days, you'restarting to scale down and
actually actually getting familyto a position where they accept
(05:28):
less information.
They're getting to the pointwhere they understand that
there's probably not going to bea good outcome on this.
It's a tempered exercise.
You're dealing with theemotions of a family and what
they need and some of thoseneeds that you simply can't meet
.
You've got to talk to themabout that and also realize that
you report directly to the IC.
(05:50):
You're not an advocate, you'rea liaison A very critical part
of understanding how to run therole well.
Tom Mueller (05:59):
Well, now, if I had a loved one who was missing in
one of the big parks and I havea 28-year-old daughter who is an
avid hiker, loves to travel,been through Yosemite numerous
times, you know if she wentmissing, you know I would want
to be out there on the hunt anddoing part of the search
(06:19):
activity.
Do you let family members getinvolved in that piece of it?
Do you let family members getinvolved in?
Moose Mutlow (06:23):
that piece of it.
There are times that we've hadfamilies out there because
they've got themselves organizedand they've got a high enough
level of personal management.
They've been in the outdoorsenough to not be a risk.
Obviously it starts to get alittle bit more complicated if
you're in technical terrain andvery few families can
participate with that sort ofvertical exposure.
But we've had families out onthe edge having some level of
(06:48):
monitored role in searches.
I think there's also aresponsibility on the IC's end
is if you know or you feel thatthere's going to be that
negative outcome.
It's a fatality.
How do you best manage a familycoming into that reality?
And one of the rules that wehave is if we know we're doing a
recovery in a known location,typically we'll stop the
(07:10):
recovery.
If the family turn up on scene,our attention will turn to the
family.
We'll manage the family andthen, once the family leaves the
scene, we'll start again tomaybe do that car extraction or
pull a body out the river.
And that's based on experience.
It's a traumatic event thattook the life and then it's a
traumatic event for the familyto watch the body be recovered
(07:33):
and it's a traumatic event forthe rescuers because if they're
dealing with that emotionaldeluge that's coming from the
family, that becomes a reallyheavy load to carry.
So we're being careful for allthe parties that are involved,
and that's where the familyliaison is part choreographer
they're figuring out the bestway to give information and move
the family through a process.
(07:54):
It's also air traffic control.
There are all these piecesgoing on and use your experience
to help figure out when tobring the family on the scene,
when to pull them off, when togive a bit more installation to
the rescuers.
And that's all done in carefulcoordination with the incident
commander.
Marc Mullen (08:09):
Out here.
A lot of our law enforcementagencies have what they call the
support officer position.
That sounds sort of like this,except of course it's a
different setting.
You're not up in the hills,You're on the street, but it's
the same idea of having someonethere to care for the family.
What's the training behind this?
How do you get into this?
Maybe how did you get into it?
And then, when we're out therein responses and we're seeing a
(08:33):
need for someone like you, it'dbe nice to know who to look for.
Moose Mutlow (08:37):
You're definitely attracted to this type of work,
probably because ofcommunication skill.
I come from a background ofguiding and working in social
work-esque environments, so alot of communication, a lot of
trying to figure out how to workwell with people, to listen to
people.
That was my background and thenover the years, just being in
the outdoors, you deal with alot of accidents and deaths.
(08:59):
I had a lot of experience thatcould be tapped into for the
search and rescue in thenational park.
We run up to a 16-hour trainingfor qualified people so they
might do the ICS training onlineto get them understanding that
system if they've been exposedto it.
But most times it's skills thatpeople bring in maturity or
(09:19):
previous experience of workingin around the health industry or
within law enforcement.
You've got to be really good atstriking a balance, a
compassionate, empathetic,objectivity.
You're not a grief counselor,you're not a therapist.
You're delivering difficultinformation in a way that people
at that moment could digest itand do something with it.
Tom Mueller (09:41):
So empathy obviously is a critical factor
of being in that kind of role.
Gosh, one of the realchallenges I would think is
delivering that bad news whenthere's a bad outcome for a
family.
What's your experience withthat and how do you work through
sort of the emotional stress ofhaving to deliver that kind of
(10:04):
news to a family?
Moose Mutlow (10:06):
We stage it.
If we have an outcome where weknow we have to do a
notification of death, I'll workreally, really hard to get my
law enforcement uniform personin there with me who's going to
deliver this short, succinct butcaring message about the loss
of their loved one, and thenthey'll express their
condolences and they'll removethemselves from the scene and
(10:27):
then are coming behind toessentially help deal with the
mess that that creates.
I think a lot of times when wetalk about death culturally,
it's uncomfortable for everybodyinvolved and there isn't always
a neat way of doing it.
But the key piece in all ofthose deliverers is keep it
short, be precise and leavesomebody in no doubt that the
(10:51):
worst thing has happened.
Tom Mueller (10:53):
Yeah, there's no sort of sugarcoating this,
talking around it, right?
Moose Mutlow (10:57):
You can't.
You can't say things likethey're in a better place or
they're not in pain anymore.
These are very presumptivesentences, presumptive words.
I tell families, I'm going togive them a single, undeniable
truth.
So I'm going to back up all thefacts they give them.
I'm going to test them threetimes to make sure they're right
.
And if I don't know the answerto something, I'm not going to
(11:17):
tread into that area.
I had a mother who asked meabout what her son's last
moments were like and I said Idon't know.
No-transcript, he was not alone.
I knew that because I talked tothe people on scene.
(11:39):
I'd been on scene and I knew Icould hear them saying his name.
And those are, when you've gotthat sort of fact to a mother,
that they could hold on to that.
But to say any of these otherpresumptive pieces is very
dangerous.
I don't think.
I think you end up servingyourself more.
You end up serving the family.
Marc Mullen (12:03):
I come into this from the other end a little bit,
because in my wife's family herbrother was killed in a
mountain climbing accident, andso we were at the other end of
that, being the family, tryingto figure out what in the world
happened.
That went from a nice, warmJuly afternoon to being in the
hospital at 11 pm.
And it resonates with me whatyou're saying, because if you
(12:27):
start trying to accommodate thespeculation, there's just no end
to it, and if you're in aposition where people are
starting to think if only they'ddone something a bit different,
it doesn't change the outcome.
Moose Mutlow (12:38):
People are like starting to think if only they'd
done something a bit different,it doesn't change the outcome.
And in the outdoors, where somuch of it has happened unseen
and it happens in a moment,people can have an event just in
front of them on the trail andhaving and have three people
have three different memoriesabout what just happened.
The outcome's the same, butthen mechanism and the sort of
story leading up is a little bitdifferent and we share that
without necessarily saying well,that person's version is better
(13:00):
than that person's.
We leave it to the family tonegotiate that.
Marc Mullen (13:05):
Do you end up sharing with the family about
the process of the search andrescue part as well?
Moose Mutlow (13:12):
Oh yeah, absolutely With technology.
Now I will pull out all of thedownloaded data sets.
They will show very detailedtraverses that show where
someone with a little gps hasdone this minute search and you
see the the depth of detail thathas been undertaken by a
specific group on a grid search.
(13:33):
But then at that moment you canalso start to see the enormity
of the task.
To look under every boulder ina massive talus field is an
impossibility.
So I use technology a lot and inthe past we put people up in
helicopters to overflight, do anoverflight that has application
(13:54):
.
It isn't something that I wouldtypically do.
That's an exception to the rule.
It isn't something that I wouldtypically do.
That's an exception to the rule.
You need to give them as muchinformation as you can, as much
to highlight what seems to beworking and where we're sort of
starting to say, oh, this areaisn't a hot area anymore, but
also to show that dog teamsdon't always find people.
They're a good PR exercise alot of times because we see them
(14:15):
on the ground working.
In an urban setup they havefantastic success, but out in
the woods they have limitedexposure, limited use, and it's
I talk through that and have theoperations chief come in and
talk through those details.
Tom Mueller (14:30):
From your experience what the sort of
instigating factors for most ofthe search and rescue are the
incidents that you work out inthe national parks?
Moose Mutlow (14:40):
Overestimating your ability and underestimating
the challenge.
That's kind of the formula isthat people arrive pretty
excited about their TikTok andInstagram opportunity and
they'll be really focused ongetting to the top of that peak.
But they'll be carrying half aliter of water and some salty
snack and it isn't enough forthat 12 or 13 hour undertaking.
(15:02):
But that's part of learning tobe in the outdoors.
The problem is maybe that itwas.
Those are lessons that we mighthave learned when we were eight
or nine years old in ourbackyards and we were only a
half mile away from the housewhen we discovered that we had
inadequate supplies.
Now people, because they haveless exposure to the outdoors,
are learning it later, as youngadults maybe, or even older, and
(15:25):
they just haven't got thatdepth of experience.
And I think that one of thethings that we need to do when
people have those epics is nothumiliate them or embarrass them
, is explain them and educatethem so they can be safer on
their next event oh, is there.
Tom Mueller (15:42):
This is a question my daughter asked me to ask you
is do you see different mistakesbetween different ages or
generation of hikers out there?
Moose Mutlow (15:52):
well, young men I mean they're their own.
Significant proportion of everyaccident, like the way that
young men's brains develop, is Iam indestructible and I always
say that when I'm out, when I'mout training, and I see a group
come by and we'll stop and chat,because that one of the things
we do when we're training isstop training, talk to people,
make a good visitor contact, goback to training and I'll say if
(16:14):
I see a group of young men, I'mlike, you're my, my demographic
.
You're the ones who are goingto have the exit, you're the
ones that will go to the edge.
You will be the ones that jumpout on that rock.
You will be the rock.
They all are and 99.9% of thetime they're young men and they
do fine.
I think the older hikers fallinto that piece where they may
(16:38):
underestimate where they're atphysically.
So they, what they did whenthey were 30 and 40, they can't
do in their 60s and 70s a littlebit different.
And then there's a anothergroup that is is a cross-age.
It's just a disconnect withwhat, where their bodies are at
and what the wilderness is like,the idea that everything's a
(17:02):
curated experience that'scontrollable, that if we have an
accident, an ambulance candrive up here, and actually your
ambulance is a horse and it'sgoing to take six hours for you
to come out in a veryuncomfortable fashion, bumping
up and down.
So there isn't necessarily thefilter that says I'm not going
to jump off of this rock, I'mgoing to climb down off the rock
(17:24):
.
I'm going to do what I do whenI'm just wandering around the
neighborhood jumping offsomething.
I'm just going to do it here.
And rolling your ankle fourmiles up the trail with two and
a half thousand feet to comedown is a very different
undertaking.
Marc Mullen (17:38):
so it's a lack of understanding in that moment
have you seen your work gosideways in a response where the
families didn't cooperate orthe media decided to make
something bigger out of it andsubjected the families to
challenges, embarrassment orwhatever, or on?
Moose Mutlow (17:58):
the fact they built against you.
They're a little bit different.
I mean, if they push back on afamily liaison, you just step
aside and somebody else goes in,or you put an investigator in
it's, it's and there's nojudgment on it.
They're, they're in crisis, sothey get.
They get a pass and we find thebest way to meet their needs.
I we do a lot of briefing aroundmedia, particularly with a
(18:20):
major, about how, if they chooseto have media involved, we'll
help them figure out how toreach out and contact and we'll
do a little bit of chaperoning.
I won't, but the Park Servicepublic affairs person will help
shepherd them.
But I wouldn't say we've hadparticularly negative.
There are moments where you'llhave families that are
disappointed and they'll put apublic appeal out for underwater
(18:41):
resources for diving and theywon't understand that actually
to dive in a swift waterenvironment, for a whitewater
environment at altitude, there'sprobably three people that can
do it nationally and then theyhave to get all that supply up
there and the only way they cando it is an overflight.
It's just born out ofdesperation, it's not bloody
mindedness.
(19:02):
It's people in crisis.
You meet families where they'reat.
I think sometimes we forget wehave this agenda of search, that
search, and we actually havetwo parallel tracks.
We have the search and themission and we have looking
after the family and they kindof are on the same trajectory.
Tom Mueller (19:18):
Wildfires are a thing that's been in the news a
lot lately.
Moose Mutlow (19:30):
And I wonder do you get involved with fire
service issues at all?
We train our engine crews onSwiftwater Rescue each year
because they're a really goodresource.
So they'll do a refresher onthat.
And I've been on one major firewhere I ran the river operation
for the ferguson fire, whereyou're trucking firefighters
(19:50):
across the river safely to getto either build fire lines or
maintain hose lights what havehave you?
But I think everything'sbecoming more closer and closer
in coordination and it'sinescapable, with the frequency
at which fire is kicking off,that you don't have SAR
operations running with afire-based event.
Tom Mueller (20:13):
I'm curious, because you're dealing so much
with emotions and there's a lotof stress involved with engaging
with family members and thatdoes.
Does PTSD become a thing forfolks in your role who deal with
families and how do you assessthat?
(20:35):
How do you deal with that?
Moose Mutlow (20:38):
I think PTSD is the ugly, untalked-about secret
for so long.
Generationally, thisaccumulative trauma of watching
or participating in these eventshas had devastating effect on
law enforcement, emergencyworkers, fire.
Now we have a little bit moreunderstanding about how trauma
(20:58):
works and so we work pretty hardaround something called the
stress continuum, which isessentially a tool that was
evolved by the Marine Corps tolook at whether people are
combat ready, and it's been nowrevised to meet the need of the
responder community and itessentially allows you to have a
self-diagnostic to say, hey,I'm in this position, where I'm
(21:19):
ready, I'm performing, I'm in ahealthy place, through to being
critical, the fourth stage, thered stage, saying I'm actually
injured, I'm unable to deal withcomplexity, is the one I always
talk about.
Uh, would you carry that?
And so now we do a lot morework of prepping people to
recognize those problems and theidea of ptsi and p to recognize
those problems and the idea ofPTSI and PTSD injury over
(21:41):
disorder is the idea that theinjury has a little bit more of
a less stigma attached to it,the idea you can recover from it
and that could be a peer-basedpiece or change within the work
environment, whereas a disorderneeds a higher level of care.
Tom Mueller (21:55):
Yeah, I like the way you sort of characterize
that.
You've got a post-traumaticstress injury, which you know it
connotes like a first aidinjury or something like that.
As you said, that's treatableand manageable, whereas PTSD
does feel more disorderly.
Moose Mutlow (22:13):
Yeah, and that idea of you can bring yourself
back.
So for me, the thing I love todo is just sit on the river in a
boat or be rafting or swimmingor snorkeling.
These are the things thatreally re-energize me and put me
in a healthy place.
That's in my green zone.
If I've got all the way overinto that critical zone, I'm not
doing that anymore, I'm notlooking after myself, and so a
(22:34):
peer or my family can look at itand say you need to go to the
river and I'll go to the river.
And that 40-minute section isthe start of recovery.
And I think the intensity ofbeing on multi-shift long
call-outs multiple days on,unless you engineer that
downtime, that recovery, thatthing that you used to do, and
include it back in your dailyroutine, that's where your
(22:57):
trauma injury, you're notrecovering.
You're just stacking up andgetting into that negative zone.
I was in a workshop around thestress continuum and a light
bulb went off and I realizedwhere I was at on the continuum
and next to me was an Iraqi warvet who'd been in Afghanistan as
well and they too were at thatcritical area.
(23:18):
They were deeply injured and weboth got there and totally
different pathways, but we hadthe same reaction and we had
different ways of treating it.
What a green zone was going tobe?
But it, trauma is very personal.
It's not a competition.
One person's trauma is not anymore valuable than anybody
else's.
It's a very individual thing.
(23:40):
And then you have an individualtreatment plan.
Marc Mullen (23:45):
In our field, we prepare for things we sincerely
hope never happen.
In the law enforcement or yourrescue field, you're always
preparing for something that isgoing to happen, so I think that
you're more aware of it becauseyou deal with it on a much more
regular basis.
But, tom, to me the challengeis recognizing that our response
(24:05):
isn't over when the incident'sover, that we need to be
thinking about personal care forthe people that are involved.
And in Deep Water Horizon, forexample, there was plenty of
stress and plenty of traumafloating around there and it was
impacting everybody.
The truth is, we're in anindustry whose goal is to go
(24:25):
home, but sometimes you go homebut you're not done yet.
Moose Mutlow (24:29):
Right, and I think that's where peer groups, the
people who you work with it,actually maintain lines of
communication and you don't say,hey, you okay, because you get
a throwaway line, I am all right.
It's say what did you do?
What do you do at the weekend?
And if the person just sataround with the curtain shut,
(24:50):
hitting the bottle, they're notin a good place.
But if they said, oh, I wentfor a picnic, I got out, I
played a pickup game basketballyou start to see this idea that
they're in a healthier place andwe as peers don't have to fix
people.
What we have to do is raise theflag and help them get the
professional care that they needand remove the stigma of
(25:11):
looking after yourself on thatlevel so you can come back and
perform at a high level againwithin your team.
Tom Mueller (25:18):
Yeah, that's really really great advice, Moose,
Thanks for sharing that.
I think most of us who've beenthrough major incidents feel
some level of post-traumaticstress injury and try to figure
out how do we work through thatand we all seem to muddle our
way through or most of us do butit's good to know there's tools
out there that can actuallyhelp teams, management teams
(25:42):
deal with their folks when theycome back from work in a major
incident like that.
Hey, I want to switch gearsreal quick.
Moose, you mentioned somethingearlier about training and I'm
sort of fascinated by that,because you talked about
training in public and thenstopping your training when
people are passing by, which itseems kind of like an
(26:04):
interesting, almost you know apublic relations way to do it.
But you're actually helpingeducate people by being out
there in public doing theexercises so a lot of what I do
in the spring is swift waterrescue training.
Moose Mutlow (26:17):
So we're out in snowmelt rivers that are ripping
by pretty quick, it's cold,it's dynamic, it's kind of
exciting.
And we go to areas that havehigh traffic foot traffic and we
put a little safety zone up sowe keep people back from the
edge.
We put a sandwich board up thatexplains what we're doing and I
just get somebody who's in thetraining to keep their eye out
(26:39):
and they rotate up to talk tomembers of the public if they
stop and ask questions.
And it's the best way to showhey, if you fall in this water
at this time of the year, we'vegot all the gear on.
Look how powerless we are.
It's that experiential approachand it also makes it humor as
well.
It's that Iial approach and italso makes it humor as well is
that I say, hey, if you have anaccident, it's going to be me
(26:59):
coming out and looking for youand I don't want to be put in
that position.
So my face is on there as, hey,when you have an accident, it
isn't just you, it's the entireteam you're exposing.
And then, if we put a ship inthe air, how dangerous is that.
I mean, helicopters aredesigned to self-destruct and
(27:22):
the pilots are trained to stopthem from doing it.
That's the nature of thehelicopter.
So when we start to put thatresponsibility onto onto park
users, I kind of like that and Ilove looking at working with
young people and sort of showingthem in a dynamic sense what
the power is.
It's not an adult tellingwhat's happening, they.
They're watching somebody in aPFD, a flotation device, whip
under a bridge at 20 miles anhour, and they know they're
(27:42):
powerless in that moment.
They understand that.
Tom Mueller (27:45):
If somebody wants to get a hold of you for more
information, what's the best wayto reach you?
Moose Mutlow (27:51):
I've got a website wwwmoosemutlowcom website
wwwmoosemutlowcom and I've got acouple of books out.
There are out on amazon.
When accidents happen is mybook about family liaison work
and I'm also on instagram atmoose all right, moose.
Tom Mueller (28:09):
Thanks for joining us on the podcast today, really
uh informative, and it's reallynice to know there's people like
you out there willing to takethe lead and help families in
difficult situations they mightface.
So thanks very much for beingwith us.
Moose Mutlow (28:25):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Tom Mueller (28:27):
And that'll do it for this episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks again for joining usAgain, if you want to email the
show, hit Tom atleadinginacrisiscom, and we'll
catch you soon for anotherepisode of the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
I like the idea of the family liaison officer
being the incident commander'srepresentative to the family.
Quite often there's a breakdownon incidents or missions.
You're focused on trying toresolve a missing person and
trying to scale up to do theappropriate search.
Sometimes the family is justkept on a back burner.
What the family liaison officerdoes is it actually pulls it up
(00:24):
, escalates it to a point whereit has a direct but controlled
line to the incident commanderso that information can flow
both ways.
Tom Mueller (00:34):
That clip you just heard is from our guest today
who's an expert in search andrescue operations around the
Yosemite National Park here inthe US.
A bit more detail on our guestin just a moment and we just
have one quick recognition itemfor us today.
This podcast has beenrecognized by the folks at
(00:55):
Feedspot as the number 13podcast in the state of Texas
for management podcasts.
Again, that's the good folksover at Feedspot who aggregate
global media outlets and contentcreators, making us easier to
find for others who are lookingfor those kinds of services.
So thanks to the folks atFeedspot for that recognition
(01:18):
for the podcast today.
I'm Tom Mueller, with me againtoday, my friend and co-host,
mark Mullin.
Our guest today is Moose Mutlow, who since 2002, has been a
member and a senior trainer forYosemite Search and Rescue.
One of the busiest search andrescue operations in the world,
(01:40):
yosemite National Parkentertains nearly 4 million
visitors a year.
Moose has two books to hiscredit, both written around his
experiences in the search andrescue field, one of which
focuses more specifically aroundthe family liaison officer role
.
Now, neither Mark or I wereparticularly familiar with
(02:01):
family liaison role from ourcrisis experiences, mostly in
the corporate settings, so it'squite an educational
conversation with Moose.
So, moose, welcome to thepodcast.
Moose Mutlow (02:14):
Thank you very much for having me along.
Tom Mueller (02:17):
Now you have.
You've got a kind of aninteresting background.
You've worked in the outdoorspace for really your whole
adult life and obviously you'vedeveloped a deep passion for the
outdoor space, for hiking, youknow, and you've been doing
search and rescue for a longtime.
I was fascinated just to kindof tap your brain earlier when
(02:38):
we spoke around the whole familyliaison officer role, because
when you get into search andrescue missions oftentimes
there's negative outcomes fromthose search and rescues and so
the family liaison officerbecomes quite critical.
In that, tell us a little bit,what does that officer do and
(03:00):
what are those big challenges?
Moose Mutlow (03:02):
I like the idea of the family liaison officer
being the incident commander'srepresentative to the family.
Quite often there's a breakdownon incidents or missions.
You're focused on trying toresolve a missing person and
trying to scale up to do theappropriate search.
Sometimes the family is justkept on a back burner.
What the family liaison officerdoes is it actually pulls it up
(03:24):
, escalates it to a point whereit has a direct but controlled
line to the incident commanderso that information can flow
both ways.
Essentially, by having thatposition work effectively, you
avoid that moment on media wherea family says we don't know
(03:45):
what's going on and that's thetelling point that you haven't
fully integrated them into somesort of compassionate,
empathetic and objectivecommunication strategy.
Marc Mullen (03:54):
So does that?
Then it sounds like it'sanother stakeholder group, as is
media or elected officials andso on.
So do you fit in liaison or isit an independent support box in
the org chart?
Moose Mutlow (04:08):
So if you look at the org chart, quite often it'll
see PIO and liaison andactually the family liaison is
hidden behind that.
It should be a separate one,and that brought up to the same
level of accessibility toinformation.
Tom Mueller (04:22):
Moose, I know when we've spoken before you've
talked about some of the casesthat you've worked in search and
rescue.
I wonder if there's a story ortwo you could share with us
around incidents you've workedin and how does the family
liaison officer engage withsearch and rescue teams?
(04:42):
Got family members around?
What is that dynamic like?
Moose Mutlow (04:46):
Well, the key piece is to have accessibility
to information.
You're sitting in all thebriefs.
You're able to talk to theplanning chief about what's
going on with the action plan.
You're starting to gauge howthe IC is moving forward and
then you're taking thatinformation and delivering it in
a way that a family can digestFor an extended assignment.
(05:08):
You're going to have, reallyearly on, a lot of contact with
the family.
You might be talking with themevery other hour to start to
give them an idea about what'shappening out there.
As you scale up and put morefeet on the ground and as it
goes through to that point ofactually not seeing something
after two or three days, you'restarting to scale down and
actually actually getting familyto a position where they accept
(05:28):
less information.
They're getting to the pointwhere they understand that
there's probably not going to bea good outcome on this.
It's a tempered exercise.
You're dealing with theemotions of a family and what
they need and some of thoseneeds that you simply can't meet
.
You've got to talk to themabout that and also realize that
you report directly to the IC.
(05:50):
You're not an advocate, you'rea liaison A very critical part
of understanding how to run therole well.
Tom Mueller (05:59):
Well, now, if I had a loved one who was missing in
one of the big parks and I havea 28-year-old daughter who is an
avid hiker, loves to travel,been through Yosemite numerous
times, you know if she wentmissing, you know I would want
to be out there on the hunt anddoing part of the search
(06:19):
activity.
Do you let family members getinvolved in that piece of it?
Do you let family members getinvolved in?
Moose Mutlow (06:23):
that piece of it.
There are times that we've hadfamilies out there because
they've got themselves organizedand they've got a high enough
level of personal management.
They've been in the outdoorsenough to not be a risk.
Obviously it starts to get alittle bit more complicated if
you're in technical terrain andvery few families can
participate with that sort ofvertical exposure.
But we've had families out onthe edge having some level of
(06:48):
monitored role in searches.
I think there's also aresponsibility on the IC's end
is if you know or you feel thatthere's going to be that
negative outcome.
It's a fatality.
How do you best manage a familycoming into that reality?
And one of the rules that wehave is if we know we're doing a
recovery in a known location,typically we'll stop the
(07:10):
recovery.
If the family turn up on scene,our attention will turn to the
family.
We'll manage the family andthen, once the family leaves the
scene, we'll start again tomaybe do that car extraction or
pull a body out the river.
And that's based on experience.
It's a traumatic event thattook the life and then it's a
traumatic event for the familyto watch the body be recovered
(07:33):
and it's a traumatic event forthe rescuers because if they're
dealing with that emotionaldeluge that's coming from the
family, that becomes a reallyheavy load to carry.
So we're being careful for allthe parties that are involved,
and that's where the familyliaison is part choreographer
they're figuring out the bestway to give information and move
the family through a process.
(07:54):
It's also air traffic control.
There are all these piecesgoing on and use your experience
to help figure out when tobring the family on the scene,
when to pull them off, when togive a bit more installation to
the rescuers.
And that's all done in carefulcoordination with the incident
commander.
Marc Mullen (08:09):
Out here.
A lot of our law enforcementagencies have what they call the
support officer position.
That sounds sort of like this,except of course it's a
different setting.
You're not up in the hills,You're on the street, but it's
the same idea of having someonethere to care for the family.
What's the training behind this?
How do you get into this?
Maybe how did you get into it?
And then, when we're out therein responses and we're seeing a
(08:33):
need for someone like you, it'dbe nice to know who to look for.
Moose Mutlow (08:37):
You're definitely attracted to this type of work,
probably because ofcommunication skill.
I come from a background ofguiding and working in social
work-esque environments, so alot of communication, a lot of
trying to figure out how to workwell with people, to listen to
people.
That was my background and thenover the years, just being in
the outdoors, you deal with alot of accidents and deaths.
(08:59):
I had a lot of experience thatcould be tapped into for the
search and rescue in thenational park.
We run up to a 16-hour trainingfor qualified people so they
might do the ICS training onlineto get them understanding that
system if they've been exposedto it.
But most times it's skills thatpeople bring in maturity or
(09:19):
previous experience of workingin around the health industry or
within law enforcement.
You've got to be really good atstriking a balance, a
compassionate, empathetic,objectivity.
You're not a grief counselor,you're not a therapist.
You're delivering difficultinformation in a way that people
at that moment could digest itand do something with it.
Tom Mueller (09:41):
So empathy obviously is a critical factor
of being in that kind of role.
Gosh, one of the realchallenges I would think is
delivering that bad news whenthere's a bad outcome for a
family.
What's your experience withthat and how do you work through
sort of the emotional stress ofhaving to deliver that kind of
(10:04):
news to a family?
Moose Mutlow (10:06):
We stage it.
If we have an outcome where weknow we have to do a
notification of death, I'll workreally, really hard to get my
law enforcement uniform personin there with me who's going to
deliver this short, succinct butcaring message about the loss
of their loved one, and thenthey'll express their
condolences and they'll removethemselves from the scene and
(10:27):
then are coming behind toessentially help deal with the
mess that that creates.
I think a lot of times when wetalk about death culturally,
it's uncomfortable for everybodyinvolved and there isn't always
a neat way of doing it.
But the key piece in all ofthose deliverers is keep it
short, be precise and leavesomebody in no doubt that the
(10:51):
worst thing has happened.
Tom Mueller (10:53):
Yeah, there's no sort of sugarcoating this,
talking around it, right?
Moose Mutlow (10:57):
You can't.
You can't say things likethey're in a better place or
they're not in pain anymore.
These are very presumptivesentences, presumptive words.
I tell families, I'm going togive them a single, undeniable
truth.
So I'm going to back up all thefacts they give them.
I'm going to test them threetimes to make sure they're right
.
And if I don't know the answerto something, I'm not going to
(11:17):
tread into that area.
I had a mother who asked meabout what her son's last
moments were like and I said Idon't know.
No-transcript, he was not alone.
I knew that because I talked tothe people on scene.
(11:39):
I'd been on scene and I knew Icould hear them saying his name.
And those are, when you've gotthat sort of fact to a mother,
that they could hold on to that.
But to say any of these otherpresumptive pieces is very
dangerous.
I don't think.
I think you end up servingyourself more.
You end up serving the family.
Marc Mullen (12:03):
I come into this from the other end a little bit,
because in my wife's family herbrother was killed in a
mountain climbing accident, andso we were at the other end of
that, being the family, tryingto figure out what in the world
happened.
That went from a nice, warmJuly afternoon to being in the
hospital at 11 pm.
And it resonates with me whatyou're saying, because if you
(12:27):
start trying to accommodate thespeculation, there's just no end
to it, and if you're in aposition where people are
starting to think if only they'ddone something a bit different,
it doesn't change the outcome.
Moose Mutlow (12:38):
People are like starting to think if only they'd
done something a bit different,it doesn't change the outcome.
And in the outdoors, where somuch of it has happened unseen
and it happens in a moment,people can have an event just in
front of them on the trail andhaving and have three people
have three different memoriesabout what just happened.
The outcome's the same, butthen mechanism and the sort of
story leading up is a little bitdifferent and we share that
without necessarily saying well,that person's version is better
(13:00):
than that person's.
We leave it to the family tonegotiate that.
Marc Mullen (13:05):
Do you end up sharing with the family about
the process of the search andrescue part as well?
Moose Mutlow (13:12):
Oh yeah, absolutely With technology.
Now I will pull out all of thedownloaded data sets.
They will show very detailedtraverses that show where
someone with a little gps hasdone this minute search and you
see the the depth of detail thathas been undertaken by a
specific group on a grid search.
(13:33):
But then at that moment you canalso start to see the enormity
of the task.
To look under every boulder ina massive talus field is an
impossibility.
So I use technology a lot and inthe past we put people up in
helicopters to overflight, do anoverflight that has application
(13:54):
.
It isn't something that I wouldtypically do.
That's an exception to the rule.
It isn't something that I wouldtypically do.
That's an exception to the rule.
You need to give them as muchinformation as you can, as much
to highlight what seems to beworking and where we're sort of
starting to say, oh, this areaisn't a hot area anymore, but
also to show that dog teamsdon't always find people.
They're a good PR exercise alot of times because we see them
(14:15):
on the ground working.
In an urban setup they havefantastic success, but out in
the woods they have limitedexposure, limited use, and it's
I talk through that and have theoperations chief come in and
talk through those details.
Tom Mueller (14:30):
From your experience what the sort of
instigating factors for most ofthe search and rescue are the
incidents that you work out inthe national parks?
Moose Mutlow (14:40):
Overestimating your ability and underestimating
the challenge.
That's kind of the formula isthat people arrive pretty
excited about their TikTok andInstagram opportunity and
they'll be really focused ongetting to the top of that peak.
But they'll be carrying half aliter of water and some salty
snack and it isn't enough forthat 12 or 13 hour undertaking.
(15:02):
But that's part of learning tobe in the outdoors.
The problem is maybe that itwas.
Those are lessons that we mighthave learned when we were eight
or nine years old in ourbackyards and we were only a
half mile away from the housewhen we discovered that we had
inadequate supplies.
Now people, because they haveless exposure to the outdoors,
are learning it later, as youngadults maybe, or even older, and
(15:25):
they just haven't got thatdepth of experience.
And I think that one of thethings that we need to do when
people have those epics is nothumiliate them or embarrass them
, is explain them and educatethem so they can be safer on
their next event oh, is there.
Tom Mueller (15:42):
This is a question my daughter asked me to ask you
is do you see different mistakesbetween different ages or
generation of hikers out there?
Moose Mutlow (15:52):
well, young men I mean they're their own.
Significant proportion of everyaccident, like the way that
young men's brains develop, is Iam indestructible and I always
say that when I'm out, when I'mout training, and I see a group
come by and we'll stop and chat,because that one of the things
we do when we're training isstop training, talk to people,
make a good visitor contact, goback to training and I'll say if
(16:14):
I see a group of young men, I'mlike, you're my, my demographic
.
You're the ones who are goingto have the exit, you're the
ones that will go to the edge.
You will be the ones that jumpout on that rock.
You will be the rock.
They all are and 99.9% of thetime they're young men and they
do fine.
I think the older hikers fallinto that piece where they may
(16:38):
underestimate where they're atphysically.
So they, what they did whenthey were 30 and 40, they can't
do in their 60s and 70s a littlebit different.
And then there's a anothergroup that is is a cross-age.
It's just a disconnect withwhat, where their bodies are at
and what the wilderness is like,the idea that everything's a
(17:02):
curated experience that'scontrollable, that if we have an
accident, an ambulance candrive up here, and actually your
ambulance is a horse and it'sgoing to take six hours for you
to come out in a veryuncomfortable fashion, bumping
up and down.
So there isn't necessarily thefilter that says I'm not going
to jump off of this rock, I'mgoing to climb down off the rock
(17:24):
.
I'm going to do what I do whenI'm just wandering around the
neighborhood jumping offsomething.
I'm just going to do it here.
And rolling your ankle fourmiles up the trail with two and
a half thousand feet to comedown is a very different
undertaking.
Marc Mullen (17:38):
so it's a lack of understanding in that moment
have you seen your work gosideways in a response where the
families didn't cooperate orthe media decided to make
something bigger out of it andsubjected the families to
challenges, embarrassment orwhatever, or on?
Moose Mutlow (17:58):
the fact they built against you.
They're a little bit different.
I mean, if they push back on afamily liaison, you just step
aside and somebody else goes in,or you put an investigator in
it's, it's and there's nojudgment on it.
They're, they're in crisis, sothey get.
They get a pass and we find thebest way to meet their needs.
I we do a lot of briefing aroundmedia, particularly with a
(18:20):
major, about how, if they chooseto have media involved, we'll
help them figure out how toreach out and contact and we'll
do a little bit of chaperoning.
I won't, but the Park Servicepublic affairs person will help
shepherd them.
But I wouldn't say we've hadparticularly negative.
There are moments where you'llhave families that are
disappointed and they'll put apublic appeal out for underwater
(18:41):
resources for diving and theywon't understand that actually
to dive in a swift waterenvironment, for a whitewater
environment at altitude, there'sprobably three people that can
do it nationally and then theyhave to get all that supply up
there and the only way they cando it is an overflight.
It's just born out ofdesperation, it's not bloody
mindedness.
(19:02):
It's people in crisis.
You meet families where they'reat.
I think sometimes we forget wehave this agenda of search, that
search, and we actually havetwo parallel tracks.
We have the search and themission and we have looking
after the family and they kindof are on the same trajectory.
Tom Mueller (19:18):
Wildfires are a thing that's been in the news a
lot lately.
Moose Mutlow (19:30):
And I wonder do you get involved with fire
service issues at all?
We train our engine crews onSwiftwater Rescue each year
because they're a really goodresource.
So they'll do a refresher onthat.
And I've been on one major firewhere I ran the river operation
for the ferguson fire, whereyou're trucking firefighters
(19:50):
across the river safely to getto either build fire lines or
maintain hose lights what havehave you?
But I think everything'sbecoming more closer and closer
in coordination and it'sinescapable, with the frequency
at which fire is kicking off,that you don't have SAR
operations running with afire-based event.
Tom Mueller (20:13):
I'm curious, because you're dealing so much
with emotions and there's a lotof stress involved with engaging
with family members and thatdoes.
Does PTSD become a thing forfolks in your role who deal with
families and how do you assessthat?
(20:35):
How do you deal with that?
Moose Mutlow (20:38):
I think PTSD is the ugly, untalked-about secret
for so long.
Generationally, thisaccumulative trauma of watching
or participating in these eventshas had devastating effect on
law enforcement, emergencyworkers, fire.
Now we have a little bit moreunderstanding about how trauma
(20:58):
works and so we work pretty hardaround something called the
stress continuum, which isessentially a tool that was
evolved by the Marine Corps tolook at whether people are
combat ready, and it's been nowrevised to meet the need of the
responder community and itessentially allows you to have a
self-diagnostic to say, hey,I'm in this position, where I'm
(21:19):
ready, I'm performing, I'm in ahealthy place, through to being
critical, the fourth stage, thered stage, saying I'm actually
injured, I'm unable to deal withcomplexity, is the one I always
talk about.
Uh, would you carry that?
And so now we do a lot morework of prepping people to
recognize those problems and theidea of ptsi and p to recognize
those problems and the idea ofPTSI and PTSD injury over
(21:41):
disorder is the idea that theinjury has a little bit more of
a less stigma attached to it,the idea you can recover from it
and that could be a peer-basedpiece or change within the work
environment, whereas a disorderneeds a higher level of care.
Tom Mueller (21:55):
Yeah, I like the way you sort of characterize
that.
You've got a post-traumaticstress injury, which you know it
connotes like a first aidinjury or something like that.
As you said, that's treatableand manageable, whereas PTSD
does feel more disorderly.
Moose Mutlow (22:13):
Yeah, and that idea of you can bring yourself
back.
So for me, the thing I love todo is just sit on the river in a
boat or be rafting or swimmingor snorkeling.
These are the things thatreally re-energize me and put me
in a healthy place.
That's in my green zone.
If I've got all the way overinto that critical zone, I'm not
doing that anymore, I'm notlooking after myself, and so a
(22:34):
peer or my family can look at itand say you need to go to the
river and I'll go to the river.
And that 40-minute section isthe start of recovery.
And I think the intensity ofbeing on multi-shift long
call-outs multiple days on,unless you engineer that
downtime, that recovery, thatthing that you used to do, and
include it back in your dailyroutine, that's where your
(22:57):
trauma injury, you're notrecovering.
You're just stacking up andgetting into that negative zone.
I was in a workshop around thestress continuum and a light
bulb went off and I realizedwhere I was at on the continuum
and next to me was an Iraqi warvet who'd been in Afghanistan as
well and they too were at thatcritical area.
(23:18):
They were deeply injured and weboth got there and totally
different pathways, but we hadthe same reaction and we had
different ways of treating it.
What a green zone was going tobe?
But it, trauma is very personal.
It's not a competition.
One person's trauma is not anymore valuable than anybody
else's.
It's a very individual thing.
(23:40):
And then you have an individualtreatment plan.
Marc Mullen (23:45):
In our field, we prepare for things we sincerely
hope never happen.
In the law enforcement or yourrescue field, you're always
preparing for something that isgoing to happen, so I think that
you're more aware of it becauseyou deal with it on a much more
regular basis.
But, tom, to me the challengeis recognizing that our response
(24:05):
isn't over when the incident'sover, that we need to be
thinking about personal care forthe people that are involved.
And in Deep Water Horizon, forexample, there was plenty of
stress and plenty of traumafloating around there and it was
impacting everybody.
The truth is, we're in anindustry whose goal is to go
(24:25):
home, but sometimes you go homebut you're not done yet.
Moose Mutlow (24:29):
Right, and I think that's where peer groups, the
people who you work with it,actually maintain lines of
communication and you don't say,hey, you okay, because you get
a throwaway line, I am all right.
It's say what did you do?
What do you do at the weekend?
And if the person just sataround with the curtain shut,
(24:50):
hitting the bottle, they're notin a good place.
But if they said, oh, I wentfor a picnic, I got out, I
played a pickup game basketballyou start to see this idea that
they're in a healthier place andwe as peers don't have to fix
people.
What we have to do is raise theflag and help them get the
professional care that they needand remove the stigma of
(25:11):
looking after yourself on thatlevel so you can come back and
perform at a high level againwithin your team.
Tom Mueller (25:18):
Yeah, that's really really great advice, Moose,
Thanks for sharing that.
I think most of us who've beenthrough major incidents feel
some level of post-traumaticstress injury and try to figure
out how do we work through thatand we all seem to muddle our
way through or most of us do butit's good to know there's tools
out there that can actuallyhelp teams, management teams
(25:42):
deal with their folks when theycome back from work in a major
incident like that.
Hey, I want to switch gearsreal quick.
Moose, you mentioned somethingearlier about training and I'm
sort of fascinated by that,because you talked about
training in public and thenstopping your training when
people are passing by, which itseems kind of like an
(26:04):
interesting, almost you know apublic relations way to do it.
But you're actually helpingeducate people by being out
there in public doing theexercises so a lot of what I do
in the spring is swift waterrescue training.
Moose Mutlow (26:17):
So we're out in snowmelt rivers that are ripping
by pretty quick, it's cold,it's dynamic, it's kind of
exciting.
And we go to areas that havehigh traffic foot traffic and we
put a little safety zone up sowe keep people back from the
edge.
We put a sandwich board up thatexplains what we're doing and I
just get somebody who's in thetraining to keep their eye out
(26:39):
and they rotate up to talk tomembers of the public if they
stop and ask questions.
And it's the best way to showhey, if you fall in this water
at this time of the year, we'vegot all the gear on.
Look how powerless we are.
It's that experiential approachand it also makes it humor as
well.
It's that Iial approach and italso makes it humor as well is
that I say, hey, if you have anaccident, it's going to be me
(26:59):
coming out and looking for youand I don't want to be put in
that position.
So my face is on there as, hey,when you have an accident, it
isn't just you, it's the entireteam you're exposing.
And then, if we put a ship inthe air, how dangerous is that.
I mean, helicopters aredesigned to self-destruct and
(27:22):
the pilots are trained to stopthem from doing it.
That's the nature of thehelicopter.
So when we start to put thatresponsibility onto onto park
users, I kind of like that and Ilove looking at working with
young people and sort of showingthem in a dynamic sense what
the power is.
It's not an adult tellingwhat's happening, they.
They're watching somebody in aPFD, a flotation device, whip
under a bridge at 20 miles anhour, and they know they're
(27:42):
powerless in that moment.
They understand that.
Tom Mueller (27:45):
If somebody wants to get a hold of you for more
information, what's the best wayto reach you?
Moose Mutlow (27:51):
I've got a website wwwmoosemutlowcom website
wwwmoosemutlowcom and I've got acouple of books out.
There are out on amazon.
When accidents happen is mybook about family liaison work
and I'm also on instagram atmoose all right, moose.
Tom Mueller (28:09):
Thanks for joining us on the podcast today, really
uh informative, and it's reallynice to know there's people like
you out there willing to takethe lead and help families in
difficult situations they mightface.
So thanks very much for beingwith us.
Moose Mutlow (28:25):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Tom Mueller (28:27):
And that'll do it for this episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks again for joining usAgain, if you want to email the
show, hit Tom atleadinginacrisiscom, and we'll
catch you soon for anotherepisode of the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
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