March 6, 2025 • 23 mins
Wildfires are not just a devastating force of nature; they are a crisis that tests the limits of communication and collaboration. In this episode, we engage with Katy O’Hara, a fire management specialist with a wealth of experience in crisis communication and public information. Katy sheds light on the challenges faced by public information officers during wildfire emergencies, especially in high-stakes situations like those we've witnessed in the Pacific Palisades, where urgent evacuations and tragic losses occurred.
Listeners will gain insight into how communication strategies evolve in response to the demands of affected communities. Katie discusses the tools she uses—from social media to grassroots conversations—and how her training helps bridge the gap between complex firefighting jargon and relatable messaging for those in affected areas. With the stakes as high as lives and homes, understanding how to convey accurate and timely information becomes paramount.
Moreover, the episode underscores the undeniable importance of teamwork among various agencies responding to wildfires. Katie shares valuable lessons on how to navigate the intricate landscape of interagency communication, allowing the public to stay informed while fostering trust among community members.
Reach Katy O'Hara at Control Line Communications https://www.control-line.co/
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:07):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
I'm Tom Mueller.
With me again today, my friendand co-host Marc Mullen.
Marc, how are you?
Marc Mullen (00:16):
I'm well today, tom , thank you.
Tom Mueller (00:18):
Quick reminder if you want to email the show, you
can drop me a line at tom atleadinginacrisiscom.
On the show today we're goingto delve into the topic of
wildfires.
Wildfires have dominated theheadlines here in the United
States in recent weeks owing toa just tragic fire that broke
(00:39):
out in the Pacific Palisadesarea of Los Angeles.
In the Pacific Palisades areaof Los Angeles we saw stories of
homes destroyed.
They're estimating 11,000 homeswere destroyed, something like
$30 billion in damages there.
So just a tragic and horrificfire.
But it was punctuated by theseurgent evacuations and stories
(01:05):
of residents fleeing their homes, surrounded by fire on both
sides of the road.
We wanted to kind of jump in andtake a look at the
communications aspects ofdealing with a wildfire like
that, which would present prettysignificant challenges if you
were a public informationofficer or a liaison officer
(01:25):
challenges if you were a publicinformation officer or a liaison
officer.
So we're going to kind of diveinto that today with our guest,
and she is Katie O'Hara.
Now Katie is a fire managementspecialist at the Bureau of Land
Management, which is a USgovernment entity.
She worked many large firesover the course of her career
and has a number of stories toshare with us around her
(01:47):
experience as a PIO and aliaison officer.
Katie is also founder ofControl Line Communications,
which is a crisis communicationsconsultancy that she and a
partner have recently launched.
So we're going to be watchingKatie to see how that plays out
in the coming months.
And Katie is also a NavalReserve Officer in Public
(02:12):
Affairs and has had deploymentsin Afghanistan and other
locations.
So some interesting stories toshare from all of that
experience.
Katie, welcome to this show.
Katy O'Hara (02:24):
Thanks Tom, thanks Marc for having me.
Tom Mueller (02:27):
Katie, I gave a brief biography of you.
Anything else you want to putin context before we get started
?
Katy O'Hara (02:35):
No, I think that's great.
I think hopefully I can sharemy experience from both the Navy
and the wildland fireperspective.
I've had the pleasure to serveas the lead public information
officer for Southwest Area Team1 for the last five years, five
seasons, and that's one of ourtype one or complex incident
(02:56):
management teams national teamshere in the country so do a lot
of traveling all over thecountry and globe, including
Canada and Australia in yearspast.
Tom Mueller (03:08):
Dealing with firefighter response.
Katy O'Hara (03:11):
Yes.
Tom Mueller (03:12):
Okay, all right.
Well, how did you get intofirefighting?
Katy O'Hara (03:18):
Oh man.
So I affectionately call thisas my stumble into the career.
I affectionately call this asmy stumble into the career.
As a young high school graduate, I was fortunate enough to have
a full ride Navy ROTCscholarship to Oregon State
University, go Beavs.
And in that time frame, lookingat that summer, I was sitting as
(03:44):
a bump on a log at home,actually had no intentions of
getting a summer job and my dad,who is a retired college
football coach, did not likethat option for me and
gracefully told me I had twoweeks to find myself a job or he
(04:04):
was going to go find one for me, and so I took that as a little
bit of a personal challenge.
What could I go seek out and do?
That was a little bit outsideof my comfort zone, probably way
outside of my mom's comfortzone, and be outside Spent a lot
of time as a kid growing up outin the National Forest, camping
(04:28):
and all that stuff.
So this was back in the daywhen you could walk into an
office and and just fill out apaper application and you would
be hired the next day.
Sometime May, june, timeframe ofwhen I graduated from high
(04:48):
school uh, was able to take theinitial pack test, which is the
physical fitness requirements,uh, and go through a little uh
fire school, uh, and get my um,uh, firefighter type two
certification, uh, and start ona on a hand crew Uh, my tool of
choice at that time was a shoveland I took my place in the line
and started digging line andthis was back in 2002, which for
(05:13):
folks who are in the wildlandfire community I know, was a
pretty significant and impactfulfire season that year.
So that was my rookie year andtiptoed into it.
Did that for all four summerswhile I was in college and then
had the opportunity to come backto the field after a four-year
(05:35):
stint on active duty after Igraduated from college, so fell
in love with the community, fellin love with the whole fire
family concept and just keptdoing it ever since.
Tom Mueller (05:48):
So that frontline experience has got to come in
really handy now when you workas a PIO or liaison for a big
fire.
How does that help you?
Katy O'Hara (05:58):
Absolutely so for me.
I feel like that allows me tobe able to translate operational
jargon to the real world.
What do community members and Ialways like to phrase it in the
like what is my mom going tounderstand?
What is my sister going tounderstand?
Who don't work in thisenvironment?
Never really been around it,and so I can take those
(06:20):
operational briefings and thatinformation that our division
chiefs or hotshotsuperintendents on the ground
are talking about and turn itinto something that will be
useful for the public in termsof understanding the story of
the fire, right, like I'm notjust trying to tell them you
know, we're digging line overhere.
(06:40):
We're doing this thing.
We're trying to build the wholestory of what's happening in
that firefight and all of theresources that are there to
support the community that'sbeing impacted.
Tom Mueller (06:53):
Now you're typically you know you don't
have a command post of brick andmortar typically that you're
working from when you're, youknow out working a wildfire.
So what is your office looklike, katie, and what are your
communications tools when you'rethere?
Katy O'Hara (07:12):
Yeah, absolutely so .
Our offices can be anythingfrom the front seat of my car,
which is usually a rentalvehicle of some sort, all the
way to a yurt or a desk out in atrailer in the middle of a
fairgrounds location orsomething like that.
So it really varies fromlocation to location.
(07:35):
Assignment to assignmentflexibility I call it the Semper
Gumby.
You know approach.
You have to be ready to justwork wherever it is.
Coffee shops all across thecountry have been offices for
many, many public informationofficers.
(07:55):
As we try to figure out whatour strategy is going to be, and
tool wise, I like to talk aboutit from sort of a spectrum of
tools.
We've got everything from superlow tech, which is you and me
having a conversation in frontof a grocery store, to the high
tech end of things, where we'reposting, you know, complex video
(08:20):
stories on social media andtrying to get things out that
way.
So we always look at it on thescale of what is the community
that we're trying to serve andmeeting them at the best place
possible to get the informationacross.
It's never cookie cutter, it'snever the same from one location
to the other and it's justhaving that toolbox kind of
(08:44):
built for ourselves to figureout which is the best for where
we're going.
Tom Mueller (08:50):
How about technology wise?
You know, if you're out in anational park or remote area you
typically aren't going to haveWi-Fi.
Internet connectivity is goingto be a challenge.
What kind of technology are youusing to keep in touch?
Katy O'Hara (09:08):
Yeah, so we focus on, like I said, trying to
figure out what it is wherepeople are getting their
information from in the firstplace.
So the more remote the area ifwe're talking smaller
communities then we're going tofocus in on resources or tools
that they have access to.
When we do have the options touse social media, that kind of
(09:34):
stuff we're nowadays especiallyafter this last fire season,
fire year, because it reallynever ended we're using a lot
more satellite technology.
So those low orbit satelliteinfrastructures where we're able
to get high-speed internetservices in extremely remote
(09:56):
conditions has been very, verybeneficial for us, especially
from the perspective of beingable to hear what's happening
out in the field from ouroperations folks and getting it
to us so that we can then relayit out to the public without
having to wait to that you know24 hour cycle of when we would
(10:18):
normally do a daily update typeof thing.
Now we can sort of pick up thatspeed due to the resources that
we have with that satellitetechnology.
Tom Mueller (10:30):
Is that part of your go kit then?
Katy O'Hara (10:32):
Starting to be.
We haven't quite got there yet,but that's more.
That's more due to just um,contracting mechanisms, um
across different agencies andwhere we go Um.
We're focusing in on trying tohave, uh, some of those tools on
hand, especially with ouroperations folks when we
(10:52):
initially mobilize Um, butusually within a day or two
we'll have full connectivity upand running.
Marc Mullen (10:59):
So you've got your people scattered all over the
place.
You're not all in one place, soyou're scattered between towns
and parks and everywhere else.
So obviously you run a virtualjet all the time.
How does that work?
And do you centralize some ofthe functions, or do you just
land in coffee shops, as yousaid?
Katy O'Hara (11:22):
So we will tend to have a centralized location as
close to possible as ourincident commander is.
We'll have our main, you know,command and general staff in one
location.
One of the benefits sort ofpost-COVID has been our ability
(11:42):
to use virtual resources more,so I don't need to bring a
public information officer allthe way out to the middle of
nowhere.
Who's going to be responsiblefor managing social media for me
, right?
I can have them stay at home inUtah, you know, and the fires
in California, it doesn't matterand they can manage things for
(12:05):
me from there, and so that'sbeen a huge benefit for us to be
able to disconnect some ofthose things.
It also makes it much easierfor us to manage across, you
know, connectivity issues.
If we were to have connectivityissues at the incident command
post, I have resources thatcontinue, you know, sort of that
continuity of operationsoutside of it.
Tom Mueller (12:28):
So how do you find the approval process, for you
know getting statements approvedand that you know again, in the
remote kind of setting that youare, are you able to sort of
walk a statement around?
You got a printer in yourbackpack there to print it out
and walk it around, or how doyou manage that?
Katy O'Hara (12:49):
Oh, that is that has evolved over the you
know-something years that I'vebeen doing this work.
Now, when we show up into a newlocation especially if it's
sort of an interesting dynamicdepends on the national forest
or the host agency right, whenan incident command team is
(13:12):
mobilized, we work for thatagency.
So we become agency agnosticourselves, right, I no longer
represent the agency that I workfor, I'm representing the
agency that has brought theincident command team there, and
so we work very closely withtheir leadership, their agency
administrators, with theirpublic affairs staff, if they
(13:34):
have them, to identify what isthe best process for them that
allows us to get the messagesout in an efficient and timely
manner, especially when it'scritical, and allows them to
have some buy-in to themessaging.
My hope is that forests andnational parks and agencies and
(13:57):
organizations are planning aheadfor these kind of things, that
they're thinking about themessaging that they want to have
out there and sort ofpreloading some of that.
But a lot of the times we'rehaving to sort of work with them
and find those you know, leftand right limits of what they're
comfortable with in terms ofsharing.
(14:18):
Often, you know, we'll gothrough a process of where it's
emailing drafts back and forthfor the first couple of days,
getting them comfortable withour writing styles, getting
comfortable with where theirlines are, and then it just sort
of you know trickles into athumbs up text message, which is
(14:38):
my hope by the end of the twoweek you know assignment, when a
federal IMT is there, that weget to that just sending it with
a thumbs up.
My poor incident commander hasgotten very used to me just
screenshotting a Word documentand sending it to him for
approval, because I don't wantto travel with a printer anymore
(15:01):
and we have enough technologythat you don't have to do that
kind of stuff.
Tom Mueller (15:07):
So do you often know the incident commander that
you're working with?
Are you working with differentpeople along the way?
Katy O'Hara (15:14):
So on the federal side we have let's see I'll go
with last year's numbers becausethis year's not completely set
yet we have 44 federal incidentmanagement teams, and those
incident management teams, theircore command and general staff,
are all set positions.
So we apply to those positionsevery year and so those core
(15:39):
teams are set.
So, my incident commander, thiswill be the fourth consecutive
year that we've worked together,which I find to be extremely
beneficial because thatrelationship, that trust
relationship, is built, thatsort of small team, you know,
forming, storming, norming typeof thing.
We're allowed to go throughthat.
(16:01):
And then it's at the point thatI, as a communicator, I know
where his lines are at and I canbuild products that are going
to be easy for him to say yes to, or when I need to go, you know
, outside of his comfort zone.
I know when to go ask those,those questions and when to
raise those flags for him.
Marc Mullen (16:23):
So how many deployments are you on in a
typical year?
Katy O'Hara (16:27):
The average number of mobilizations is three to
four per incident managementteam.
Last year my team went out, Ithink, five times six, including
the fact that we were actuallyout on a wildfire in Arizona
over New Year's this year, awildfire in Arizona over New
Year's this year.
So we were just north ofPhoenix on January 1st 2025 on a
(16:59):
large incident, so the bad newsis you're never home, but the
good news is you get better andbetter at working together.
Marc Mullen (17:03):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And that's rare because in alot of industries and a lot of
disasters it's a one-off.
Katy O'Hara (17:09):
I think that's one of the bonuses of how the
federal incident managementteams are shaped, and I know
California is a good example.
Oregon also does it this waywhere their state-led incident
management teams are formed.
They're organized and they'reconsistent over a certain number
of years.
(17:29):
Kind of depends state to statehow they look at that.
But that consistency allows usto, like you said, build that
relationship with each other andso we're not having to figure
each other out on day one.
You know we're focused on themission of supporting those
communities and not having tolearn what my IC how to spell
(17:50):
his last name right.
I don't want to have to worryabout that.
Marc Mullen (17:54):
So how soon do you end up in agency soup, where
there's a whole bunch ofagencies responding and you're
getting those multiple levels ofinvolvement?
Katy O'Hara (18:04):
That is basically every wildland fire for the last
decade.
Okay, it is very, very rarethat you end up on an incident
anymore where there isn'tmultiple agencies jurisdictions
that you're representing thatare all part of that delegation
of authority when you show upand they sort of dole out who's
(18:27):
responsible for what piece ofland and what piece of business.
So that is always a challengebecause you also then have to
balance out what their missionsare, what their communication
strategies are right, and makesure that you're not upsetting
the apple cart too much from oneagency to the other as you're
(18:49):
there.
But that's also why we do notwear agency paraphernalia as an
incident management team,because we are not representing
one agency, we're representingeverybody.
Tom Mueller (19:02):
Right, Nice.
Well, Katy, you are hanging outin the danger zone when you're
out on the front lines there.
So have you ever sort of youknow?
Have you ever found yourself ina situation where you had to
evacuate your command postbecause of shifting fires or
(19:24):
anything like that, or?
Katy O'Hara (19:25):
anything like that.
So personally, I have not beenin that exact situation,
especially in the last couple ofyears, but I've been very close
to, we've been in incidentswhere we've taken over a fire or
been in a transition wherethere has been an incident.
So a good example is back in ohgosh, this would have been 2019
(19:50):
.
If folks remember, in Oregonthere was a large oh God, it was
Labor Day weekend and there wasa massive wind event, talking
90 plus mile an hour winds, andyou had three fires that were on
different sides of the Cascadesthat all sort of picked the
(20:11):
wind up and emerged extremelyrapidly, probably some of the
most dramatic that I've seen upuntil 2022.
At that point it was definitelythe most dramatic command post
over outside of Detroit, oregon,where actually the public
information shop were the onlypeople that were in the command
(20:33):
post at that point in time.
Others were out doing meetingsat other locations and the PIOs
were the ones responsibleactually started digging fire
line around the incident commandpost trying to save it.
They went and grabbed tools outof their trucks.
The key there is there's areason that PIOs still have to
(20:55):
go through yearly refreshers, atleast from the federal
perspective, to remember how doyou use your fire shelter, how
do you use a tool, whether youknow, looking for those basic
LCES, so the lookout,communications, escape route,
safety zones and what's yourplan if something bad were to
(21:16):
happen?
You know PIOs are not safe fromany of that.
We're often out in and aboutfire areas and communities.
So luckily nobody was hurt.
But a lot of PIO laptops didnot survive that incident.
I think the daily update wasdelayed by a couple hours the
(21:37):
next day.
Tom Mueller (21:40):
Okay, well, glad everybody got out safely on
there.
It just underscores, you know,the challenge of being in a
frontline support role like that.
You know I'm curious too.
You're that close to the fire.
Typically there's not a hotelnearby.
What do you do for sleepingaccommodations when you're out
deployed like that?
Katy O'Hara (21:59):
Oh man, Well, it's tent city out there, right?
So an incident command post outon the wildfire often turns
into a little like virtual city.
You've got tents that have allof your basic needs, your food
and all of that stuff and forthe most part all of us are
rolling around with our littletwo or three person pop up tents
(22:20):
and go from there.
Now I will admit I'm a littlebougie these days and I just put
my air mattress in the back ofthe SUV that I rent and sleep in
there.
But I will.
I will bust out my tent if Ineed to these days, but often
we're nowhere near hotels oranything like that we're.
(22:41):
It's a good day if we can takea shower every couple of days
and get our laundry done andthat kind of thing.
Tom Mueller (22:49):
Wow, that's amazing .
I don't think most folksunderstand that level of
commitment that you guys have todeal with and respond to fire
situations like that.
So, on behalf of a gratefulnation, can I say thank you to
you and your team for all thosesacrifices that you're making
when dealing with thosesituations.
And that's going to do it forthis episode of the Leading in a
(23:13):
Crisis podcast.
Please join us for our nextepisode, when we'll continue our
conversation with Katy O'Haraand she'll share stories from
her military experience and, inparticular, her deployment to
Afghanistan, where she has somegood stories to share.
See you soon.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
I'm Tom Mueller.
With me again today, my friendand co-host Marc Mullen.
Marc, how are you?
Marc Mullen (00:16):
I'm well today, tom , thank you.
Tom Mueller (00:18):
Quick reminder if you want to email the show, you
can drop me a line at tom atleadinginacrisiscom.
On the show today we're goingto delve into the topic of
wildfires.
Wildfires have dominated theheadlines here in the United
States in recent weeks owing toa just tragic fire that broke
(00:39):
out in the Pacific Palisadesarea of Los Angeles.
In the Pacific Palisades areaof Los Angeles we saw stories of
homes destroyed.
They're estimating 11,000 homeswere destroyed, something like
$30 billion in damages there.
So just a tragic and horrificfire.
But it was punctuated by theseurgent evacuations and stories
(01:05):
of residents fleeing their homes, surrounded by fire on both
sides of the road.
We wanted to kind of jump in andtake a look at the
communications aspects ofdealing with a wildfire like
that, which would present prettysignificant challenges if you
were a public informationofficer or a liaison officer
(01:25):
challenges if you were a publicinformation officer or a liaison
officer.
So we're going to kind of diveinto that today with our guest,
and she is Katie O'Hara.
Now Katie is a fire managementspecialist at the Bureau of Land
Management, which is a USgovernment entity.
She worked many large firesover the course of her career
and has a number of stories toshare with us around her
(01:47):
experience as a PIO and aliaison officer.
Katie is also founder ofControl Line Communications,
which is a crisis communicationsconsultancy that she and a
partner have recently launched.
So we're going to be watchingKatie to see how that plays out
in the coming months.
And Katie is also a NavalReserve Officer in Public
(02:12):
Affairs and has had deploymentsin Afghanistan and other
locations.
So some interesting stories toshare from all of that
experience.
Katie, welcome to this show.
Katy O'Hara (02:24):
Thanks Tom, thanks Marc for having me.
Tom Mueller (02:27):
Katie, I gave a brief biography of you.
Anything else you want to putin context before we get started
?
Katy O'Hara (02:35):
No, I think that's great.
I think hopefully I can sharemy experience from both the Navy
and the wildland fireperspective.
I've had the pleasure to serveas the lead public information
officer for Southwest Area Team1 for the last five years, five
seasons, and that's one of ourtype one or complex incident
(02:56):
management teams national teamshere in the country so do a lot
of traveling all over thecountry and globe, including
Canada and Australia in yearspast.
Tom Mueller (03:08):
Dealing with firefighter response.
Katy O'Hara (03:11):
Yes.
Tom Mueller (03:12):
Okay, all right.
Well, how did you get intofirefighting?
Katy O'Hara (03:18):
Oh man.
So I affectionately call thisas my stumble into the career.
I affectionately call this asmy stumble into the career.
As a young high school graduate, I was fortunate enough to have
a full ride Navy ROTCscholarship to Oregon State
University, go Beavs.
And in that time frame, lookingat that summer, I was sitting as
(03:44):
a bump on a log at home,actually had no intentions of
getting a summer job and my dad,who is a retired college
football coach, did not likethat option for me and
gracefully told me I had twoweeks to find myself a job or he
(04:04):
was going to go find one for me, and so I took that as a little
bit of a personal challenge.
What could I go seek out and do?
That was a little bit outsideof my comfort zone, probably way
outside of my mom's comfortzone, and be outside Spent a lot
of time as a kid growing up outin the National Forest, camping
(04:28):
and all that stuff.
So this was back in the daywhen you could walk into an
office and and just fill out apaper application and you would
be hired the next day.
Sometime May, june, timeframe ofwhen I graduated from high
(04:48):
school uh, was able to take theinitial pack test, which is the
physical fitness requirements,uh, and go through a little uh
fire school, uh, and get my um,uh, firefighter type two
certification, uh, and start ona on a hand crew Uh, my tool of
choice at that time was a shoveland I took my place in the line
and started digging line andthis was back in 2002, which for
(05:13):
folks who are in the wildlandfire community I know, was a
pretty significant and impactfulfire season that year.
So that was my rookie year andtiptoed into it.
Did that for all four summerswhile I was in college and then
had the opportunity to come backto the field after a four-year
(05:35):
stint on active duty after Igraduated from college, so fell
in love with the community, fellin love with the whole fire
family concept and just keptdoing it ever since.
Tom Mueller (05:48):
So that frontline experience has got to come in
really handy now when you workas a PIO or liaison for a big
fire.
How does that help you?
Katy O'Hara (05:58):
Absolutely so for me.
I feel like that allows me tobe able to translate operational
jargon to the real world.
What do community members and Ialways like to phrase it in the
like what is my mom going tounderstand?
What is my sister going tounderstand?
Who don't work in thisenvironment?
Never really been around it,and so I can take those
(06:20):
operational briefings and thatinformation that our division
chiefs or hotshotsuperintendents on the ground
are talking about and turn itinto something that will be
useful for the public in termsof understanding the story of
the fire, right, like I'm notjust trying to tell them you
know, we're digging line overhere.
(06:40):
We're doing this thing.
We're trying to build the wholestory of what's happening in
that firefight and all of theresources that are there to
support the community that'sbeing impacted.
Tom Mueller (06:53):
Now you're typically you know you don't
have a command post of brick andmortar typically that you're
working from when you're, youknow out working a wildfire.
So what is your office looklike, katie, and what are your
communications tools when you'rethere?
Katy O'Hara (07:12):
Yeah, absolutely so .
Our offices can be anythingfrom the front seat of my car,
which is usually a rentalvehicle of some sort, all the
way to a yurt or a desk out in atrailer in the middle of a
fairgrounds location orsomething like that.
So it really varies fromlocation to location.
(07:35):
Assignment to assignmentflexibility I call it the Semper
Gumby.
You know approach.
You have to be ready to justwork wherever it is.
Coffee shops all across thecountry have been offices for
many, many public informationofficers.
(07:55):
As we try to figure out whatour strategy is going to be, and
tool wise, I like to talk aboutit from sort of a spectrum of
tools.
We've got everything from superlow tech, which is you and me
having a conversation in frontof a grocery store, to the high
tech end of things, where we'reposting, you know, complex video
(08:20):
stories on social media andtrying to get things out that
way.
So we always look at it on thescale of what is the community
that we're trying to serve andmeeting them at the best place
possible to get the informationacross.
It's never cookie cutter, it'snever the same from one location
to the other and it's justhaving that toolbox kind of
(08:44):
built for ourselves to figureout which is the best for where
we're going.
Tom Mueller (08:50):
How about technology wise?
You know, if you're out in anational park or remote area you
typically aren't going to haveWi-Fi.
Internet connectivity is goingto be a challenge.
What kind of technology are youusing to keep in touch?
Katy O'Hara (09:08):
Yeah, so we focus on, like I said, trying to
figure out what it is wherepeople are getting their
information from in the firstplace.
So the more remote the area ifwe're talking smaller
communities then we're going tofocus in on resources or tools
that they have access to.
When we do have the options touse social media, that kind of
(09:34):
stuff we're nowadays especiallyafter this last fire season,
fire year, because it reallynever ended we're using a lot
more satellite technology.
So those low orbit satelliteinfrastructures where we're able
to get high-speed internetservices in extremely remote
(09:56):
conditions has been very, verybeneficial for us, especially
from the perspective of beingable to hear what's happening
out in the field from ouroperations folks and getting it
to us so that we can then relayit out to the public without
having to wait to that you know24 hour cycle of when we would
(10:18):
normally do a daily update typeof thing.
Now we can sort of pick up thatspeed due to the resources that
we have with that satellitetechnology.
Tom Mueller (10:30):
Is that part of your go kit then?
Katy O'Hara (10:32):
Starting to be.
We haven't quite got there yet,but that's more.
That's more due to just um,contracting mechanisms, um
across different agencies andwhere we go Um.
We're focusing in on trying tohave, uh, some of those tools on
hand, especially with ouroperations folks when we
(10:52):
initially mobilize Um, butusually within a day or two
we'll have full connectivity upand running.
Marc Mullen (10:59):
So you've got your people scattered all over the
place.
You're not all in one place, soyou're scattered between towns
and parks and everywhere else.
So obviously you run a virtualjet all the time.
How does that work?
And do you centralize some ofthe functions, or do you just
land in coffee shops, as yousaid?
Katy O'Hara (11:22):
So we will tend to have a centralized location as
close to possible as ourincident commander is.
We'll have our main, you know,command and general staff in one
location.
One of the benefits sort ofpost-COVID has been our ability
(11:42):
to use virtual resources more,so I don't need to bring a
public information officer allthe way out to the middle of
nowhere.
Who's going to be responsiblefor managing social media for me
, right?
I can have them stay at home inUtah, you know, and the fires
in California, it doesn't matterand they can manage things for
(12:05):
me from there, and so that'sbeen a huge benefit for us to be
able to disconnect some ofthose things.
It also makes it much easierfor us to manage across, you
know, connectivity issues.
If we were to have connectivityissues at the incident command
post, I have resources thatcontinue, you know, sort of that
continuity of operationsoutside of it.
Tom Mueller (12:28):
So how do you find the approval process, for you
know getting statements approvedand that you know again, in the
remote kind of setting that youare, are you able to sort of
walk a statement around?
You got a printer in yourbackpack there to print it out
and walk it around, or how doyou manage that?
Katy O'Hara (12:49):
Oh, that is that has evolved over the you
know-something years that I'vebeen doing this work.
Now, when we show up into a newlocation especially if it's
sort of an interesting dynamicdepends on the national forest
or the host agency right, whenan incident command team is
(13:12):
mobilized, we work for thatagency.
So we become agency agnosticourselves, right, I no longer
represent the agency that I workfor, I'm representing the
agency that has brought theincident command team there, and
so we work very closely withtheir leadership, their agency
administrators, with theirpublic affairs staff, if they
(13:34):
have them, to identify what isthe best process for them that
allows us to get the messagesout in an efficient and timely
manner, especially when it'scritical, and allows them to
have some buy-in to themessaging.
My hope is that forests andnational parks and agencies and
(13:57):
organizations are planning aheadfor these kind of things, that
they're thinking about themessaging that they want to have
out there and sort ofpreloading some of that.
But a lot of the times we'rehaving to sort of work with them
and find those you know, leftand right limits of what they're
comfortable with in terms ofsharing.
(14:18):
Often, you know, we'll gothrough a process of where it's
emailing drafts back and forthfor the first couple of days,
getting them comfortable withour writing styles, getting
comfortable with where theirlines are, and then it just sort
of you know trickles into athumbs up text message, which is
(14:38):
my hope by the end of the twoweek you know assignment, when a
federal IMT is there, that weget to that just sending it with
a thumbs up.
My poor incident commander hasgotten very used to me just
screenshotting a Word documentand sending it to him for
approval, because I don't wantto travel with a printer anymore
(15:01):
and we have enough technologythat you don't have to do that
kind of stuff.
Tom Mueller (15:07):
So do you often know the incident commander that
you're working with?
Are you working with differentpeople along the way?
Katy O'Hara (15:14):
So on the federal side we have let's see I'll go
with last year's numbers becausethis year's not completely set
yet we have 44 federal incidentmanagement teams, and those
incident management teams, theircore command and general staff,
are all set positions.
So we apply to those positionsevery year and so those core
(15:39):
teams are set.
So, my incident commander, thiswill be the fourth consecutive
year that we've worked together,which I find to be extremely
beneficial because thatrelationship, that trust
relationship, is built, thatsort of small team, you know,
forming, storming, norming typeof thing.
We're allowed to go throughthat.
(16:01):
And then it's at the point thatI, as a communicator, I know
where his lines are at and I canbuild products that are going
to be easy for him to say yes to, or when I need to go, you know
, outside of his comfort zone.
I know when to go ask those,those questions and when to
raise those flags for him.
Marc Mullen (16:23):
So how many deployments are you on in a
typical year?
Katy O'Hara (16:27):
The average number of mobilizations is three to
four per incident managementteam.
Last year my team went out, Ithink, five times six, including
the fact that we were actuallyout on a wildfire in Arizona
over New Year's this year, awildfire in Arizona over New
Year's this year.
So we were just north ofPhoenix on January 1st 2025 on a
(16:59):
large incident, so the bad newsis you're never home, but the
good news is you get better andbetter at working together.
Marc Mullen (17:03):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And that's rare because in alot of industries and a lot of
disasters it's a one-off.
Katy O'Hara (17:09):
I think that's one of the bonuses of how the
federal incident managementteams are shaped, and I know
California is a good example.
Oregon also does it this waywhere their state-led incident
management teams are formed.
They're organized and they'reconsistent over a certain number
of years.
(17:29):
Kind of depends state to statehow they look at that.
But that consistency allows usto, like you said, build that
relationship with each other andso we're not having to figure
each other out on day one.
You know we're focused on themission of supporting those
communities and not having tolearn what my IC how to spell
(17:50):
his last name right.
I don't want to have to worryabout that.
Marc Mullen (17:54):
So how soon do you end up in agency soup, where
there's a whole bunch ofagencies responding and you're
getting those multiple levels ofinvolvement?
Katy O'Hara (18:04):
That is basically every wildland fire for the last
decade.
Okay, it is very, very rarethat you end up on an incident
anymore where there isn'tmultiple agencies jurisdictions
that you're representing thatare all part of that delegation
of authority when you show upand they sort of dole out who's
(18:27):
responsible for what piece ofland and what piece of business.
So that is always a challengebecause you also then have to
balance out what their missionsare, what their communication
strategies are right, and makesure that you're not upsetting
the apple cart too much from oneagency to the other as you're
(18:49):
there.
But that's also why we do notwear agency paraphernalia as an
incident management team,because we are not representing
one agency, we're representingeverybody.
Tom Mueller (19:02):
Right, Nice.
Well, Katy, you are hanging outin the danger zone when you're
out on the front lines there.
So have you ever sort of youknow?
Have you ever found yourself ina situation where you had to
evacuate your command postbecause of shifting fires or
(19:24):
anything like that, or?
Katy O'Hara (19:25):
anything like that.
So personally, I have not beenin that exact situation,
especially in the last couple ofyears, but I've been very close
to, we've been in incidentswhere we've taken over a fire or
been in a transition wherethere has been an incident.
So a good example is back in ohgosh, this would have been 2019
(19:50):
.
If folks remember, in Oregonthere was a large oh God, it was
Labor Day weekend and there wasa massive wind event, talking
90 plus mile an hour winds, andyou had three fires that were on
different sides of the Cascadesthat all sort of picked the
(20:11):
wind up and emerged extremelyrapidly, probably some of the
most dramatic that I've seen upuntil 2022.
At that point it was definitelythe most dramatic command post
over outside of Detroit, oregon,where actually the public
information shop were the onlypeople that were in the command
(20:33):
post at that point in time.
Others were out doing meetingsat other locations and the PIOs
were the ones responsibleactually started digging fire
line around the incident commandpost trying to save it.
They went and grabbed tools outof their trucks.
The key there is there's areason that PIOs still have to
(20:55):
go through yearly refreshers, atleast from the federal
perspective, to remember how doyou use your fire shelter, how
do you use a tool, whether youknow, looking for those basic
LCES, so the lookout,communications, escape route,
safety zones and what's yourplan if something bad were to
(21:16):
happen?
You know PIOs are not safe fromany of that.
We're often out in and aboutfire areas and communities.
So luckily nobody was hurt.
But a lot of PIO laptops didnot survive that incident.
I think the daily update wasdelayed by a couple hours the
(21:37):
next day.
Tom Mueller (21:40):
Okay, well, glad everybody got out safely on
there.
It just underscores, you know,the challenge of being in a
frontline support role like that.
You know I'm curious too.
You're that close to the fire.
Typically there's not a hotelnearby.
What do you do for sleepingaccommodations when you're out
deployed like that?
Katy O'Hara (21:59):
Oh man, Well, it's tent city out there, right?
So an incident command post outon the wildfire often turns
into a little like virtual city.
You've got tents that have allof your basic needs, your food
and all of that stuff and forthe most part all of us are
rolling around with our littletwo or three person pop up tents
(22:20):
and go from there.
Now I will admit I'm a littlebougie these days and I just put
my air mattress in the back ofthe SUV that I rent and sleep in
there.
But I will.
I will bust out my tent if Ineed to these days, but often
we're nowhere near hotels oranything like that we're.
(22:41):
It's a good day if we can takea shower every couple of days
and get our laundry done andthat kind of thing.
Tom Mueller (22:49):
Wow, that's amazing .
I don't think most folksunderstand that level of
commitment that you guys have todeal with and respond to fire
situations like that.
So, on behalf of a gratefulnation, can I say thank you to
you and your team for all thosesacrifices that you're making
when dealing with thosesituations.
And that's going to do it forthis episode of the Leading in a
(23:13):
Crisis podcast.
Please join us for our nextepisode, when we'll continue our
conversation with Katy O'Haraand she'll share stories from
her military experience and, inparticular, her deployment to
Afghanistan, where she has somegood stories to share.
See you soon.
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