March 19, 2025 • 24 mins
The media landscape is undergoing a seismic shift, and crisis communications must evolve alongside it. Communications expert Janie Jordan joins us from Australia to explore how influencers and alternative media are reshaping political discourse and crisis management strategies.
We dive into the Trump administration's controversial addition of influencers to White House press briefings and what it means for traditional media gatekeepers. As Janie observes, "We're at a dangerous interesting time with what's going on in the White House." This shift reflects broader trends in audience trust - with legacy media credibility declining while long-form, unfiltered content from podcasters like Joe Rogan draws tens of millions of viewers.
What appears rambling or unpolished to traditional media standards might actually build more audience trust through perceived authenticity. Politicians are increasingly bypassing media filters to connect directly with audiences, yet corporate leaders have been slower to embrace these channels.
Through compelling examples like the Iggy Azalea/Papa John's incident, we examine the tension between control and speed in crisis response. With 75% of crises potentially avoidable through proper issues management, organizations must develop crisis-ready cultures rather than just tactical response plans.
You can reach Janie Jordan at https://www.janejordan.com.au/
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:07):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
like to share stories andlessons learned brought to us by
experienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
Our guest today is Janie Jordan.
Our guest today is JanieJordan.
(00:30):
Janie's joining us from theSydney area of Australia and
Janie is a published author,lecturer and a high-stakes
communications coach.
She's been doing communicationsand media relations work for a
very long time and has a lot ofinteresting stories to share, as
we're going to find out.
Janie, welcome to the program.
Janie Jordan (00:50):
Thanks.
Thank you, virg, for thatlovely introduction.
I've been around the sun toomany times, been in a few war
rooms Like you.
We've seen a lot.
In this crazy crisis space wechoose to practice in Dom.
Tom Mueller (01:08):
It is indeed, and on the podcast today we're going
to dive into a particularlychallenging and evolving area of
communications and that's thenew media and social media,
particularly in things we'reseeing lately in political
campaigns, but then also howit's relevant for crisis
communications and monitoring.
(01:28):
So there's so much happening inthis space.
Now, Janie, I wanted to startwith just sort of the big news
we've seen out of America lately, which is the White House press
briefing room and how the Trumpadministration has sort of
upset the apple card a bit ofwho they're allowing into the
(01:50):
briefing room and the additionof new and alternative media
influencers into that space.
What's your take on what'shappening there, Janie?
What's?
Janie Jordan (02:02):
happening there.
Janie, this is absolutelyfascinating and not probably
surprising move from the Trumpadministration.
I think it's a game changer atmany different levels and I
think it's actually contemporaryand modern.
I think the impact will be feltin many different ways.
(02:29):
I think it's just asinteresting.
We've got social mediainfluencers and bloggers over it
.
It seems to me we're at adangerous interesting time, tom,
with what's going on in theWhite House, because Huffington
Post, which has been around Imean the alternative new media
we have to remind ourselves thatit's been around a very long
(02:50):
time.
But what is really interestingis the rise and the rise and the
rise of the influencers, and inmy case I know one that's
having a big influence in ourelection upcoming election here
has gone from reality TV into aleading podcaster, and that's
(03:12):
without any journalistictraining.
So you know there's two sidesto the coin here.
I think it's great that we arespreading the word.
I think the chaos and thepotential danger comes from
misinformation and onlyisolating it to the media you
want in the room, which is morea dictator like way of looking
(03:32):
at the world rather than ademocratic way of looking at the
world.
Tom Mueller (03:36):
There are so many facets to this.
You know, the trust intraditional legacy media has
been steadily dropping now.
In traditional legacy media hasbeen steadily dropping now and,
you know, in the recent in theAmerican election that brought
Donald Trump back into office.
You know, we saw a hugeinfluence of influencers such as
(03:57):
Joe Rogan, who had Trump on youknow, for a three hour
interview on his show which,last I looked, had garnered
something like 60 million viewsbetween YouTube and X.
Clearly, in what we're seeingtoday is politicians taking it
(04:18):
straight to the audiences andbypassing traditional media
filters in order to get theirmessage across and, to you know,
appear more authentic in theircommunications.
Janie Jordan (04:32):
I think, yes, you know, there's been some analysis
done and you'll probably beacross this too, tom of what
would have been perceived as wewould less than polished, even,
dare I say, unsophisticated,even rambling, interview that
went with Trump.
(04:53):
But when you talk about trust,the analysis that I've been
hearing from colleagues here isthat that actually led to trust
because he came across as beinga human being, not a polished
soundbite spokesperson in thiscase, you know, president,
(05:16):
wanting to get re-elected as apresident again and that led
well.
He's just a human being like us, you know, we don't always, you
know, have the right soundbiteor our conversation don't always
flow properly.
So that sort of two to threehour rambling is we might have
(05:36):
termed it actually has, from ananalysis perspective here, led
to trust.
So those filters you're talkingabout and we know, in
traditional media reporting Icertainly started my working
life it was, you know, all aboutgetting in the right quote, you
(05:58):
know, and writing a story to aquote or getting the right sound
bite and then cutting andediting, you know, the footage
for tv that way.
So I think the rise and the riseof the influencers and the
podcasters isn't a surprise.
When we go well, we can't trustthe media because they always
(06:20):
take people out of context, theymisquote us.
You know one client.
Well, a would-be spokespersonsaid to me oh well, you're just
in the gutter, you just deserveto be in the gutter.
And it was like, wow, that's afull-on.
You know, when I was helping totrain and coach you in the ways
of the media, I would havethought you might want to
(06:42):
appreciate learning about thegutter.
So you know, that's an extremeexample, but my point is I think
there's no surprise that wewant to hear authenticity.
Tom Mueller (06:56):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
(07:16):
You know, and I'm fascinated bythe story you recounted of the
social media influencer there inAustralia now, and the leading
candidates for office are takingtime to go and be on that show,
which of course shows the risein power of those types of
programs, but also the, you know, the desire to bypass social
media filters.
The other thing I think isinteresting is it's much more
difficult to hide yourself inthese long form interviews, and
so that piece to me is, you know, a new and interesting piece.
(07:38):
The other bit is that audiencesout there are willing to sit
and listen to three hours ofthis.
Right, it wasn't that long ago.
We would have never thoughtthat an attention span you know
people's attention span wouldhold for that, and yet we're
seeing it, you know, in those 60million views for the Joe Rogan
(08:00):
podcast with Trump and others.
So it feels like it's somethingthat's going to be with us for
a while and the politicians aregoing to have to embrace it,
right.
Janie Jordan (08:11):
Absolutely we're.
You know we.
Of course politics is very muchon mine because of what's going
on in the White House.
We've got elections here.
I think what's reallyfascinating to me, tom, is the
lack of that in the corporateworld.
Tom Mueller (08:29):
Mm-hmm, tell me.
Janie Jordan (08:31):
Podcasts are very, very popular here in Australia
and I hear more and more that Ilisten to this podcast.
I get my information from thispodcast, I trust this podcast,
and some of them are trainedjournalists and do know their
way how to navigate through aninterview, know how to bring out
(08:55):
the characteristics and sort ofdisclose the personality of
their know of the interviewee,as it were.
You know it's a real skill tointerview and know how to ask
the right questions.
It is an absolute skill.
So I find it fascinating that alot of the corporates here in
(09:15):
Australia, the big corporations,aren't taking as much advantage
to be authentic, you know, getto their community through the
long form, the trend that we'reseeing.
I think they all go.
(09:36):
People are too busy.
It's a fascinating development,isn't it?
Tom Mueller (09:41):
It is.
Janie Jordan (09:42):
We've had the new media around for a long time now
, but I think what we're seeingis this it's like there's a
two-speed highway happening here.
You know, One is full of thechase in the sense of it's speed
, speed, speed.
You know, we want six seconds,that's all.
And then on the other, you'vegot maybe a more, well, less.
(10:07):
You're taking a bit of a, youknow, a detour off in the
highway and you're meanderingaround and you're going to stop
and perhaps look at the bubblingbrook or visit Yosemite.
You know, for a while, Boy.
Tom Mueller (10:20):
In terms of risk, janie, which do you think brings
the higher risk today?
Is it the long form or is it,you know, the short form?
Janie Jordan (10:29):
well, both, both come with risk.
You know, whenever we'reexposing ourselves into the
public arena, you know to thepublic we are exposing ourselves
.
So there's risk.
There's risk everywhere.
And it goes to one of my bigpieces of advice to anybody
(10:51):
who's putting together a crisiscommunication plan, a crisis
management plan, is look at yourculture.
How has your culture lived out?
Because that is what is ondisplay in a crisis.
And if you are, in a modernsense, not going crisis is scary
(11:12):
because there's a crisis everyday.
We have polycrisis, multiplethings happening at once.
So that's the world we'reliving in.
It's crisis ridden, that's afact.
It's speed, speed, speed.
I think you look at acontemporary practice of crisis
ready culture.
At that initial breaking stage,anybody can declare a crisis
(11:32):
rather than wait.
I think the point here, tom, isif you wait, you're screwed.
Tom Mueller (11:38):
Well, with the speed of social media today, you
know your monitoring needs tobe spot on and ready.
I've just, in preparation forthis podcast, I queried a couple
of large clients about theirmonitoring processes and you
know how much are you monitoringTikTok versus.
(11:58):
You know the Instagram and Xportions and I got real mixed
comments back on that that someare really not paying attention
to the TikTok video piece ofthis.
Others are.
But you know I just find fromtraditional sort of PR and
communications, traditional sortof PR and communications,
(12:24):
finding the right tools to beable to monitor that, or just,
you know, getting yourmanagement engaged in thinking
news is going to break there orwe have some potential risk out
on TikTok of all places.
But to me it's always been anearly warning system that if
you're monitoring carefully thenyou can get you know an early
warning.
There's an issue bubbling upand it gives you a little more
(12:47):
time to deal with it.
But you know, when it comes tothe TikTok videos of the world,
I think the jury's still out.
Janie Jordan (12:55):
Yes, it's fascinating and it is for all
the people listening to us today.
Early warning systems arecritical.
You know how are you managingyour issue.
You know what does your issuesmanagement process look like,
because let's remember, tom,that 75% give or take the year
(13:16):
you're looking at statistics ofcrises, or 75% can be avoided,
you know, and it's very costly,I mean, you know, very, very,
very costly.
So the modern world is TikTok.
Tiktok is ticking, tocking oneverything, be it books, be it
(13:39):
train strikes, be it recipes.
It's where the people are.
If you've got a C2C business,b2c business, even B2B business,
you know.
I did look at TikTok quiteclosely in preparation for this
(14:00):
and the range of peoplecommenting, posting on TikTok is
across the board.
You don't see a lot of peoplein suits per se, maybe not the
lawyers, maybe not theaccountants, the professionals
necessarily.
But there is a very widecross-section and legacy media
(14:23):
in Australia have accounts there, like the Sydney Morning Herald
, for example, the DailyTelegraph here.
The Sydney Morning Herald wouldbe a bit like the New York
Times, just for an example.
The Telegraph is more tabloid,new York Post-ish, that's more
the Daily Mail here.
(14:44):
Really it's like the New YorkPost, but just you know they're
the significant old legacy printmedia here.
They have a presence on TikTokyeah.
Tom Mueller (14:54):
Are you seeing, you know, routine content generated
by those legacy media on theTikTok platform?
Janie Jordan (15:01):
Well, it's interesting.
It's a mix, you know.
It's like I'm going undergroundto look at how the new Sydney
Metro Tunnel's being built.
I'm doing that on TikTok.
I'm Channel 9 News.
I haven't got my big cameracrew with me, it's just me.
I'm Channel 9 News.
I haven't got my big cameracrew with me, it's just me.
So if a trained televisionjournalist is doing that, why
(15:30):
isn't someone in a communicationteam doing that, for example?
Because I think there's stillso much conservatism, so much
fear around the media.
It's like, my goodness,something might happen.
We might have a word up therethat's wrong.
Well, so what?
It's so fast corrected.
It flies past in a second, aswe know, to get a message
through and cut through.
(15:51):
Tom, you've got to it's.
Repetition, repetition,repetition, you know.
And we're lucky if anythingsticks, unless it's a blaring
metaphor and it's dramatic.
It goes fast, right?
So I think the point I'm makinghere and we're really tapping
into is the corporations andbusinesses of this world are
(16:17):
missing key channels ofinfluence to get to where the
people are.
Tom Mueller (16:25):
It is fascinating.
You feel like there's a bit ofa marathon effect happening here
now, with corporations standingback and watching and seeing.
You know you and I have talkedabout in the past of you know
turning loose your social mediateam and letting them run, and I
(16:47):
think the thought of that justterrifies a lot of executives,
right.
Janie Jordan (16:54):
Absolutely terrifies them, terrifies them.
That's when the command andcontrol comes in, and it's like
control, control, control, whichgoes back to the culture of
your organisation, doesn't it?
You build your plans, you doyour training, and if you've got
that right and your valuesactually are real and you've
(17:16):
trained and empowered andeducated your front line, then
why wouldn't you let them runloose?
You know, let's talk aboutfootball analogy for a moment.
Right, you know there's rulesof the game and if you foul,
then there's consequences, right, but the team on the field has
(17:36):
a coach and they are trained.
And you know various sports havedifferent cultures and
different variation in what'sallowed to happen on the field.
You know when the whistle isblown or the red card is given
out or you're taken off thepitch.
It's like that for me.
In corporations, you know tohave a crisis-ready culture.
(18:00):
Speed is everything.
The principles remain the sameTake responsibility, act fast.
And there's no, I think noexcuse for not empowering and
educating your front line andletting them lose if they know
the rules of the game and theyknow where the goalposts are.
Tom Mueller (18:20):
Fair enough and that's been an evolving
opportunity for corporations,you know, over the last 10 years
or 15 years now, as we've seensocial media sort of grow.
But you know, I'll take youback the other direction and
give you a quick anecdote of anincident that happened a few
years ago.
That is reason enough forexecutives to hold back.
(18:42):
And that's just the issue withpop star Iggy Azalea, who some
years ago Iggy was nominated fora Grammy Award and she traveled
to Los Angeles for the eventand the ceremonies.
And in her hotel before theshow she ordered pizza from Papa
John's Pizza and the deliveryman brought the pizza to her and
(19:05):
the young man who deliveredthat pizza recognized Iggy
Azalea and, even moreimportantly, he realized he had
her mobile phone number andshortly thereafter he started
texting Iggy Azalea and I thinkhe even handed her number to one
of his mates, who also startedchatting with her.
(19:28):
And of course she was outragedthat her personal information
had been compromised in this wayand she reached out to Papa
John's Pizza on Twitter to getsome clarification, some
rectification of the situation.
And whoever was on the socialmedia account that day responded
back to her tweet in a veryflippant and offhanded way
(19:52):
quoting one of her song lyrics,like something like just hey,
just let it bounce, it'll befine.
And, of course, if you'resomebody who's concerned about
your mobile phone beingcompromised, what about your
credit card information that youhave on file with them?
And so, in this situation, youknow, iggy Azalea became a
(20:13):
spokesperson for all of thosecustomers who are now concerned
about the security of their data.
But it all came back to who's onthe social media desk when that
tweet comes in and how preparedare they?
Right, of course, typicallygoing to be a 20 something
person.
Who's who's on that desk, who'svery familiar with social media
(20:37):
but may not have the experienceyet to see a potential crisis
developing.
That, I think, is what scaresexecutives off and trying to get
over that hump.
Janie Jordan (20:50):
Yes, that's a very powerful story and those get
highlighted, of course, becauseyou've got a celebrity involved
here.
We have a popular pizza brandinvolved here and it's
everybody's nightmare that mybank account details are going
to be leaked and I'm going toget scammed or I'm going to get
my account fleeced of thousandsof dollars.
(21:13):
So that's a really good exampleof the risks involved in social
media.
I think it also goes back to myculture will eat strategy for
breakfast.
And so you look at the culture.
You have the pop culture andIggy was perhaps naive in giving
(21:33):
out her phone number as opposedto having a minder do it for
her.
So that's probably the rootcause right there.
And then you have probablyinsufficiently trained in crisis
management and response and inthe culture of the organisation.
(21:54):
You know it was a bit loose.
Potentially I don't know thevalues that are written on the
website, but you know the valuesare there on display the values
of that young man who quotedback cheekily and you could have
done.
You know, like Red Cross.
You know, with the beerincident on a Friday night, you
(22:14):
know they took control of thatvery quickly and did it
beautifully and it went away in,you know, less than 12 hours.
It shows you also, tom, what acrisis is In real time.
There's the opportunity and thedanger.
You know the good old classicChinese symbol we talk about.
You know one part of the symbolfor crisis, the meaning of
(22:38):
crisis in Chinese language oneside is opportunity and one side
is danger.
Well, the opportunity, in looseterms, there is that it brought
and, as you said, by defaultIggy became the spokesperson for
the use of privacy and the useof data, and how that can get
(23:04):
out of hand very quickly.
So that's a really good exampleto look at and think out from
very, very many different angles.
Tom Mueller (23:13):
And, to be fair, that several years in the past
when that happened.
It's still a great story toshare, but I think most
corporations have moved on fromthat right.
The level of sophisticationwithin the corporate social
media teams is quite significanttoday.
Janie Jordan (23:34):
One would hope so.
One would expect that to be thecase.
Really, you know,sophistication at all levels.
Tom Mueller (23:45):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
On our next episode, we'llcontinue our conversation with
Janie Jordan and we'll talkabout the risks and
opportunities of doing theselong-form interviews like
podcasts, and why it may not bethe right venue for every senior
executive.
We'll also talk about the roleof the CEO in a crisis, with a
(24:09):
focus on some recent airlineincidents and how the CEOs were
involved early on in those.
So please join us for that nextepisode and thank you again for
joining us for the Leading in aCrisis podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
like to share stories andlessons learned brought to us by
experienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
Our guest today is Janie Jordan.
Our guest today is JanieJordan.
(00:30):
Janie's joining us from theSydney area of Australia and
Janie is a published author,lecturer and a high-stakes
communications coach.
She's been doing communicationsand media relations work for a
very long time and has a lot ofinteresting stories to share, as
we're going to find out.
Janie, welcome to the program.
Janie Jordan (00:50):
Thanks.
Thank you, virg, for thatlovely introduction.
I've been around the sun toomany times, been in a few war
rooms Like you.
We've seen a lot.
In this crazy crisis space wechoose to practice in Dom.
Tom Mueller (01:08):
It is indeed, and on the podcast today we're going
to dive into a particularlychallenging and evolving area of
communications and that's thenew media and social media,
particularly in things we'reseeing lately in political
campaigns, but then also howit's relevant for crisis
communications and monitoring.
(01:28):
So there's so much happening inthis space.
Now, Janie, I wanted to startwith just sort of the big news
we've seen out of America lately, which is the White House press
briefing room and how the Trumpadministration has sort of
upset the apple card a bit ofwho they're allowing into the
(01:50):
briefing room and the additionof new and alternative media
influencers into that space.
What's your take on what'shappening there, Janie?
What's?
Janie Jordan (02:02):
happening there.
Janie, this is absolutelyfascinating and not probably
surprising move from the Trumpadministration.
I think it's a game changer atmany different levels and I
think it's actually contemporaryand modern.
I think the impact will be feltin many different ways.
(02:29):
I think it's just asinteresting.
We've got social mediainfluencers and bloggers over it
.
It seems to me we're at adangerous interesting time, tom,
with what's going on in theWhite House, because Huffington
Post, which has been around Imean the alternative new media
we have to remind ourselves thatit's been around a very long
(02:50):
time.
But what is really interestingis the rise and the rise and the
rise of the influencers, and inmy case I know one that's
having a big influence in ourelection upcoming election here
has gone from reality TV into aleading podcaster, and that's
(03:12):
without any journalistictraining.
So you know there's two sidesto the coin here.
I think it's great that we arespreading the word.
I think the chaos and thepotential danger comes from
misinformation and onlyisolating it to the media you
want in the room, which is morea dictator like way of looking
(03:32):
at the world rather than ademocratic way of looking at the
world.
Tom Mueller (03:36):
There are so many facets to this.
You know, the trust intraditional legacy media has
been steadily dropping now.
In traditional legacy media hasbeen steadily dropping now and,
you know, in the recent in theAmerican election that brought
Donald Trump back into office.
You know, we saw a hugeinfluence of influencers such as
(03:57):
Joe Rogan, who had Trump on youknow, for a three hour
interview on his show which,last I looked, had garnered
something like 60 million viewsbetween YouTube and X.
Clearly, in what we're seeingtoday is politicians taking it
(04:18):
straight to the audiences andbypassing traditional media
filters in order to get theirmessage across and, to you know,
appear more authentic in theircommunications.
Janie Jordan (04:32):
I think, yes, you know, there's been some analysis
done and you'll probably beacross this too, tom of what
would have been perceived as wewould less than polished, even,
dare I say, unsophisticated,even rambling, interview that
went with Trump.
(04:53):
But when you talk about trust,the analysis that I've been
hearing from colleagues here isthat that actually led to trust
because he came across as beinga human being, not a polished
soundbite spokesperson in thiscase, you know, president,
(05:16):
wanting to get re-elected as apresident again and that led
well.
He's just a human being like us, you know, we don't always, you
know, have the right soundbiteor our conversation don't always
flow properly.
So that sort of two to threehour rambling is we might have
(05:36):
termed it actually has, from ananalysis perspective here, led
to trust.
So those filters you're talkingabout and we know, in
traditional media reporting Icertainly started my working
life it was, you know, all aboutgetting in the right quote, you
(05:58):
know, and writing a story to aquote or getting the right sound
bite and then cutting andediting, you know, the footage
for tv that way.
So I think the rise and the riseof the influencers and the
podcasters isn't a surprise.
When we go well, we can't trustthe media because they always
(06:20):
take people out of context, theymisquote us.
You know one client.
Well, a would-be spokespersonsaid to me oh well, you're just
in the gutter, you just deserveto be in the gutter.
And it was like, wow, that's afull-on.
You know, when I was helping totrain and coach you in the ways
of the media, I would havethought you might want to
(06:42):
appreciate learning about thegutter.
So you know, that's an extremeexample, but my point is I think
there's no surprise that wewant to hear authenticity.
Tom Mueller (06:56):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
(07:16):
You know, and I'm fascinated bythe story you recounted of the
social media influencer there inAustralia now, and the leading
candidates for office are takingtime to go and be on that show,
which of course shows the risein power of those types of
programs, but also the, you know, the desire to bypass social
media filters.
The other thing I think isinteresting is it's much more
difficult to hide yourself inthese long form interviews, and
so that piece to me is, you know, a new and interesting piece.
(07:38):
The other bit is that audiencesout there are willing to sit
and listen to three hours ofthis.
Right, it wasn't that long ago.
We would have never thoughtthat an attention span you know
people's attention span wouldhold for that, and yet we're
seeing it, you know, in those 60million views for the Joe Rogan
(08:00):
podcast with Trump and others.
So it feels like it's somethingthat's going to be with us for
a while and the politicians aregoing to have to embrace it,
right.
Janie Jordan (08:11):
Absolutely we're.
You know we.
Of course politics is very muchon mine because of what's going
on in the White House.
We've got elections here.
I think what's reallyfascinating to me, tom, is the
lack of that in the corporateworld.
Tom Mueller (08:29):
Mm-hmm, tell me.
Janie Jordan (08:31):
Podcasts are very, very popular here in Australia
and I hear more and more that Ilisten to this podcast.
I get my information from thispodcast, I trust this podcast,
and some of them are trainedjournalists and do know their
way how to navigate through aninterview, know how to bring out
(08:55):
the characteristics and sort ofdisclose the personality of
their know of the interviewee,as it were.
You know it's a real skill tointerview and know how to ask
the right questions.
It is an absolute skill.
So I find it fascinating that alot of the corporates here in
(09:15):
Australia, the big corporations,aren't taking as much advantage
to be authentic, you know, getto their community through the
long form, the trend that we'reseeing.
I think they all go.
(09:36):
People are too busy.
It's a fascinating development,isn't it?
Tom Mueller (09:41):
It is.
Janie Jordan (09:42):
We've had the new media around for a long time now
, but I think what we're seeingis this it's like there's a
two-speed highway happening here.
You know, One is full of thechase in the sense of it's speed
, speed, speed.
You know, we want six seconds,that's all.
And then on the other, you'vegot maybe a more, well, less.
(10:07):
You're taking a bit of a, youknow, a detour off in the
highway and you're meanderingaround and you're going to stop
and perhaps look at the bubblingbrook or visit Yosemite.
You know, for a while, Boy.
Tom Mueller (10:20):
In terms of risk, janie, which do you think brings
the higher risk today?
Is it the long form or is it,you know, the short form?
Janie Jordan (10:29):
well, both, both come with risk.
You know, whenever we'reexposing ourselves into the
public arena, you know to thepublic we are exposing ourselves
.
So there's risk.
There's risk everywhere.
And it goes to one of my bigpieces of advice to anybody
(10:51):
who's putting together a crisiscommunication plan, a crisis
management plan, is look at yourculture.
How has your culture lived out?
Because that is what is ondisplay in a crisis.
And if you are, in a modernsense, not going crisis is scary
(11:12):
because there's a crisis everyday.
We have polycrisis, multiplethings happening at once.
So that's the world we'reliving in.
It's crisis ridden, that's afact.
It's speed, speed, speed.
I think you look at acontemporary practice of crisis
ready culture.
At that initial breaking stage,anybody can declare a crisis
(11:32):
rather than wait.
I think the point here, tom, isif you wait, you're screwed.
Tom Mueller (11:38):
Well, with the speed of social media today, you
know your monitoring needs tobe spot on and ready.
I've just, in preparation forthis podcast, I queried a couple
of large clients about theirmonitoring processes and you
know how much are you monitoringTikTok versus.
(11:58):
You know the Instagram and Xportions and I got real mixed
comments back on that that someare really not paying attention
to the TikTok video piece ofthis.
Others are.
But you know I just find fromtraditional sort of PR and
communications, traditional sortof PR and communications,
(12:24):
finding the right tools to beable to monitor that, or just,
you know, getting yourmanagement engaged in thinking
news is going to break there orwe have some potential risk out
on TikTok of all places.
But to me it's always been anearly warning system that if
you're monitoring carefully thenyou can get you know an early
warning.
There's an issue bubbling upand it gives you a little more
(12:47):
time to deal with it.
But you know, when it comes tothe TikTok videos of the world,
I think the jury's still out.
Janie Jordan (12:55):
Yes, it's fascinating and it is for all
the people listening to us today.
Early warning systems arecritical.
You know how are you managingyour issue.
You know what does your issuesmanagement process look like,
because let's remember, tom,that 75% give or take the year
(13:16):
you're looking at statistics ofcrises, or 75% can be avoided,
you know, and it's very costly,I mean, you know, very, very,
very costly.
So the modern world is TikTok.
Tiktok is ticking, tocking oneverything, be it books, be it
(13:39):
train strikes, be it recipes.
It's where the people are.
If you've got a C2C business,b2c business, even B2B business,
you know.
I did look at TikTok quiteclosely in preparation for this
(14:00):
and the range of peoplecommenting, posting on TikTok is
across the board.
You don't see a lot of peoplein suits per se, maybe not the
lawyers, maybe not theaccountants, the professionals
necessarily.
But there is a very widecross-section and legacy media
(14:23):
in Australia have accounts there, like the Sydney Morning Herald
, for example, the DailyTelegraph here.
The Sydney Morning Herald wouldbe a bit like the New York
Times, just for an example.
The Telegraph is more tabloid,new York Post-ish, that's more
the Daily Mail here.
(14:44):
Really it's like the New YorkPost, but just you know they're
the significant old legacy printmedia here.
They have a presence on TikTokyeah.
Tom Mueller (14:54):
Are you seeing, you know, routine content generated
by those legacy media on theTikTok platform?
Janie Jordan (15:01):
Well, it's interesting.
It's a mix, you know.
It's like I'm going undergroundto look at how the new Sydney
Metro Tunnel's being built.
I'm doing that on TikTok.
I'm Channel 9 News.
I haven't got my big cameracrew with me, it's just me.
I'm Channel 9 News.
I haven't got my big cameracrew with me, it's just me.
So if a trained televisionjournalist is doing that, why
(15:30):
isn't someone in a communicationteam doing that, for example?
Because I think there's stillso much conservatism, so much
fear around the media.
It's like, my goodness,something might happen.
We might have a word up therethat's wrong.
Well, so what?
It's so fast corrected.
It flies past in a second, aswe know, to get a message
through and cut through.
(15:51):
Tom, you've got to it's.
Repetition, repetition,repetition, you know.
And we're lucky if anythingsticks, unless it's a blaring
metaphor and it's dramatic.
It goes fast, right?
So I think the point I'm makinghere and we're really tapping
into is the corporations andbusinesses of this world are
(16:17):
missing key channels ofinfluence to get to where the
people are.
Tom Mueller (16:25):
It is fascinating.
You feel like there's a bit ofa marathon effect happening here
now, with corporations standingback and watching and seeing.
You know you and I have talkedabout in the past of you know
turning loose your social mediateam and letting them run, and I
(16:47):
think the thought of that justterrifies a lot of executives,
right.
Janie Jordan (16:54):
Absolutely terrifies them, terrifies them.
That's when the command andcontrol comes in, and it's like
control, control, control, whichgoes back to the culture of
your organisation, doesn't it?
You build your plans, you doyour training, and if you've got
that right and your valuesactually are real and you've
(17:16):
trained and empowered andeducated your front line, then
why wouldn't you let them runloose?
You know, let's talk aboutfootball analogy for a moment.
Right, you know there's rulesof the game and if you foul,
then there's consequences, right, but the team on the field has
(17:36):
a coach and they are trained.
And you know various sports havedifferent cultures and
different variation in what'sallowed to happen on the field.
You know when the whistle isblown or the red card is given
out or you're taken off thepitch.
It's like that for me.
In corporations, you know tohave a crisis-ready culture.
(18:00):
Speed is everything.
The principles remain the sameTake responsibility, act fast.
And there's no, I think noexcuse for not empowering and
educating your front line andletting them lose if they know
the rules of the game and theyknow where the goalposts are.
Tom Mueller (18:20):
Fair enough and that's been an evolving
opportunity for corporations,you know, over the last 10 years
or 15 years now, as we've seensocial media sort of grow.
But you know, I'll take youback the other direction and
give you a quick anecdote of anincident that happened a few
years ago.
That is reason enough forexecutives to hold back.
(18:42):
And that's just the issue withpop star Iggy Azalea, who some
years ago Iggy was nominated fora Grammy Award and she traveled
to Los Angeles for the eventand the ceremonies.
And in her hotel before theshow she ordered pizza from Papa
John's Pizza and the deliveryman brought the pizza to her and
(19:05):
the young man who deliveredthat pizza recognized Iggy
Azalea and, even moreimportantly, he realized he had
her mobile phone number andshortly thereafter he started
texting Iggy Azalea and I thinkhe even handed her number to one
of his mates, who also startedchatting with her.
(19:28):
And of course she was outragedthat her personal information
had been compromised in this wayand she reached out to Papa
John's Pizza on Twitter to getsome clarification, some
rectification of the situation.
And whoever was on the socialmedia account that day responded
back to her tweet in a veryflippant and offhanded way
(19:52):
quoting one of her song lyrics,like something like just hey,
just let it bounce, it'll befine.
And, of course, if you'resomebody who's concerned about
your mobile phone beingcompromised, what about your
credit card information that youhave on file with them?
And so, in this situation, youknow, iggy Azalea became a
(20:13):
spokesperson for all of thosecustomers who are now concerned
about the security of their data.
But it all came back to who's onthe social media desk when that
tweet comes in and how preparedare they?
Right, of course, typicallygoing to be a 20 something
person.
Who's who's on that desk, who'svery familiar with social media
(20:37):
but may not have the experienceyet to see a potential crisis
developing.
That, I think, is what scaresexecutives off and trying to get
over that hump.
Janie Jordan (20:50):
Yes, that's a very powerful story and those get
highlighted, of course, becauseyou've got a celebrity involved
here.
We have a popular pizza brandinvolved here and it's
everybody's nightmare that mybank account details are going
to be leaked and I'm going toget scammed or I'm going to get
my account fleeced of thousandsof dollars.
(21:13):
So that's a really good exampleof the risks involved in social
media.
I think it also goes back to myculture will eat strategy for
breakfast.
And so you look at the culture.
You have the pop culture andIggy was perhaps naive in giving
(21:33):
out her phone number as opposedto having a minder do it for
her.
So that's probably the rootcause right there.
And then you have probablyinsufficiently trained in crisis
management and response and inthe culture of the organisation.
(21:54):
You know it was a bit loose.
Potentially I don't know thevalues that are written on the
website, but you know the valuesare there on display the values
of that young man who quotedback cheekily and you could have
done.
You know, like Red Cross.
You know, with the beerincident on a Friday night, you
(22:14):
know they took control of thatvery quickly and did it
beautifully and it went away in,you know, less than 12 hours.
It shows you also, tom, what acrisis is In real time.
There's the opportunity and thedanger.
You know the good old classicChinese symbol we talk about.
You know one part of the symbolfor crisis, the meaning of
(22:38):
crisis in Chinese language oneside is opportunity and one side
is danger.
Well, the opportunity, in looseterms, there is that it brought
and, as you said, by defaultIggy became the spokesperson for
the use of privacy and the useof data, and how that can get
(23:04):
out of hand very quickly.
So that's a really good exampleto look at and think out from
very, very many different angles.
Tom Mueller (23:13):
And, to be fair, that several years in the past
when that happened.
It's still a great story toshare, but I think most
corporations have moved on fromthat right.
The level of sophisticationwithin the corporate social
media teams is quite significanttoday.
Janie Jordan (23:34):
One would hope so.
One would expect that to be thecase.
Really, you know,sophistication at all levels.
Tom Mueller (23:45):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
On our next episode, we'llcontinue our conversation with
Janie Jordan and we'll talkabout the risks and
opportunities of doing theselong-form interviews like
podcasts, and why it may not bethe right venue for every senior
executive.
We'll also talk about the roleof the CEO in a crisis, with a
(24:09):
focus on some recent airlineincidents and how the CEOs were
involved early on in those.
So please join us for that nextepisode and thank you again for
joining us for the Leading in aCrisis podcast.
We'll see you next time.
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