March 26, 2025 • 14 mins
The rise of long-form interviews has created a new challenge for executives trying to balance authenticity with strategic messaging. Communications expert Janie Jordan joins us to unpack why these seemingly relaxed conversations can actually be the most difficult media format to navigate successfully.
We also examine the rapid evolution of crisis communications through recent airline incidents, exploring how companies like American Airlines and Southwest Airlines have established new standards with CEO video responses issued within hours of an incident. But how 'out front' should your CEO be in a crisis?
Our host, Tom Mueller, was a PIO for bp during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill response, and relates his experience with CEO Tony Hayward during that incident. It's a reminder of how even well-intentioned executives can mishandle their communication role.
Listen now to gain valuable insights on preparing executives for both planned long-form interviews and unexpected crisis situations in today's unforgiving media landscape.
You can reach Janie Jordan at https://www.janejordan.com.au/
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:07):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
I'm Tom Mueller On our podcasttoday.
We're continuing ourconversation with Janie Jordan
from Sydney, australialeadership coach, a strategic
(00:28):
advisor and a high-stakescommunications expert with many
years experience working in thecommunications field.
Today we continue ourconversation and we're going to
focus on long-form interviewslike podcasts, the risks and
opportunities that come withthose and why it may not be
right for every executive, andthen we'll also talk about the
role of the CEO in the crisis.
We'll look at some recentairline incidents and get
(00:52):
Janie's take on the executivecommunications around those.
Let's join the conversation now.
You know, janie, there'sanother issue.
That's around training.
These days, I know mediatraining programs.
You know we're incorporatingnow the long form podcast
interview as part of that andyou know, and just giving
(01:13):
participants an opportunity tofeel the more relaxed atmosphere
there, let your guard down alittle bit and then potentially
get yourself into trouble.
So there is.
You know it's very authenticway to communicate but, as we've
said, there's still quite a bitof risk in that.
So it's interesting to putpeople in that situation in a
(01:36):
training environment and givethem the opportunity to explore
it a little bit.
It's not for everyone.
Janie Jordan (01:43):
Absolutely not for everyone.
I think that's fantastic andthat you're doing that.
I haven't heard a lot of thathappening here in Australia,
actually, and I can.
I always say when I was youknow when, in my full on
training days, as opposed to thecoaching I do now and it was
(02:03):
like for me people go, oh, printis easy, it's just like having
a conversation I'd go, no, no,no, no, no.
That's actually the hardest,that is the most challenging
interview you will ever do.
Tv is easy, you know.
I mean cameras are going topotentially maybe frighten you
(02:24):
or you're going to be so awareand get tongue-tied because
you're on camera, but allthey're looking for is a clean
grab.
You give them a nice, cleansentence.
The weather in Sydney today wasblistering hot and we were at
40 degrees and the humidity was100% right.
That's a nice clean grab.
They're happy.
But when you're in a long-forminterview like a podcast or like
(02:50):
a print interview, even if it'sjust going online, there is
risk everywhere, because yourelax and the trained
interviewer, the podcaster orthe journalist can navigate or
take you down a path to get youknow a good, clean angle or
(03:15):
something that's a bit spicy.
It's going to cut through theclutter, get unique visits.
It's tough.
Tom Mueller (03:24):
Yeah.
Janie Jordan (03:24):
They're very tough interviews and I think if you
can nail a long-form interview,nail a print interview, you
actually have real listeningskills and you are performing at
a high level, because it's ahigh performance level we're
talking here.
Tom Mueller (03:42):
It's the most authentic form of conversation
now, that long form interviewbut you have to be on the ball
all the time and it is, asyou've said, a quite unique
challenge because you want to beauthentic.
You have to be authentic inthat kind of conversation, but
(04:03):
you still have to stay onmessage and be interesting and
all of that which, again, thefact that the politicians are
embracing that now, I think,gives us a much better picture
of them personally through thosetypes of interviews.
(04:25):
Janie, one other thing I wantedto kind of just touch base with
you on the crisis communicationssphere, because we've had some
examples recently of aircraftincidents here, in America and
we've seen, you know, a varietyof responses from the aircraft
(04:48):
or the airlines to that, and oneof the things that seems to be
a best practice now among thebig airlines here in the States
is getting a CEO video out veryquickly to express that care and
concern, provide a bit ofinformation, then to thank those
(05:09):
who are responding and helpingto resolve this situation, and
we've seen a couple of reallygood examples of that with.
Southwest Airlines had anincident a few years ago where
an engine exploded in flight andpunctured a fuselage and killed
a passenger, but they had a CEOvideo up within about four
(05:31):
hours.
And then I fast forward now tothe American Airlines crash at
Reagan National Airport inWashington DC.
That collided with a militaryhelicopter and American Airlines
had a very, very well done CEOvideo up within just two to
(05:51):
three hours of the incident.
So it was a remarkableturnaround to get a CEO in the
room, have a script, have thempractice, deliver it and get it
published within two to threehours of notification of an
incident.
That speaks well to the plan,but probably also of the CEO.
(06:15):
What's your take on those?
Janie Jordan (06:18):
I think that video is very, very powerful and it
is what I'm seeing.
A trend here is video, video,video in very many different
channels.
So my take on it is that thatshows best practice.
(06:40):
I agree with you.
I think we are looking at bestpractice in that situation and,
quite frankly, it should be.
I mean, airlines are in adangerous business but it's part
of their operations.
You know they've got to beprepared with those sorts of
things because they're going tohappen.
They happen right.
(07:00):
So I would go yes, it's bestpractice.
It's fabulous that they had,you know, had the CEO out there
with the right care and concern.
It's almost like they need tobe templated, because you don't
know what the details of theincident is and, heavens above,
(07:22):
no one would ever have thoughtthat you'd have an army
helicopter.
That crash was absolutelyterrifying.
I mean, that's a crisis for theair traffic controllers and
department and every levelreally, because that is shocking
, shocking.
It was really hard to get yourhead around.
So my takeover all, tom, isthat it's a fantastic
(07:46):
development in our practice andone that I think needs even more
.
It could really, if you that'spossible, with the right
training, the right preparation,to be out in an hour and I
would go today we don't have.
You know, the golden hour isabout 15 minutes and I know,
(08:07):
even for years and years,decades and decades of practice,
shell has always said that ifthey can't get something out in
20 minutes, then something'swrong.
And that was before this crazysocial media age, this digital
age we're in.
So if you're in a high highrisk issue, rich environment
(08:32):
organization, then you have noexcuse, not.
You must be prepared, you musthave plans, you must have your
digital tools at the ready.
Tom Mueller (08:46):
And your CEO or senior executive needs to be
ready to turn it up and turn iton very quickly.
But, janie, in your experience,how many CEOs out there can
muster that level of empathy andthat perfect delivery, like we
saw with some of these Americanairline companies?
(09:07):
Well, I think I could countthem on one hand, and that's,
you know, the CEO might not beyour best spokesperson in a
situation.
Janie Jordan (09:17):
Very, very good point and one I feel quite
passionate about, really,because it goes to you know
quick news, breaking news.
Who's going to be available atthat breaking news stage?
And, let's face it, tom, youdon't want your CEO or the chair
of the board stuffing it up,screwing it up.
You know, because where do yougo from there?
(09:38):
So you know the head ofoperations.
You know you want that personto be over, to be ready.
Who's first on the ground.
You know.
If you go back to what pointpoint I was making earlier,
contemporary modern practiceanyone can declare a crisis.
So some of the bestspokespeople have been from the
(09:58):
trenches.
Because they know inside out,every single day, their
operations.
They are best equipped toquickly put something together
and then you can escalate.
You know after the news is outand then you can.
You know, two hours, two, threehours is more acceptable If
(10:22):
you've spoken out, got somebodyout quickly within the first 15,
20 minutes.
That's key.
It might be something on X oryou might have something you can
vision, because the vision isthe powerful one, and it's trust
, because we can.
You know, look in their eyes.
Do I trust you?
(10:43):
Do you really care?
You've killed somebody, one'stoo many.
So that's my take.
So very few people get it rightimmediately, and you've
probably seen that in thetraining room too, tom.
Tom Mueller (10:57):
Yeah, and that's why you need to make sure your
CEO and executive team aretrained and practiced in crisis
communications, because younever know who's going to be on
duty at the time somethinghappens.
Janie Jordan (11:11):
So be ready for that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Mueller (11:14):
And it's about, as you've said, janie, who brings
credibility, and when you have asort of very knowledgeable
operations person at themicrophone, they just naturally
bring that.
Of course, your CEO brings thatbecause of the gravitas of the
position.
Yeah, but it can all gosideways in a hurry.
Janie Jordan (11:34):
The poster child really for how things could go
sideways in a hurry is.
It was always going to be TonyHayward in BP.
You know poor man, but you knowhe is the post child of how not
to do it.
Tom Mueller (11:48):
Yeah, and that was during deep water horizon oil
spill in the States.
I worked as a PIO for BP'sincident commander for that
incident, and so I have a wholemodule I do now on the role of
the CEO in a crisis, and Tony'sa prime example of a man who
(12:09):
cared very deeply but didn'tunderstand his role and position
.
And that got him into a lot oftrouble.
Yes, so that'll be anotherconversation for us down the
road.
Janie is just that role of theCEO, because there's so much to
cover there.
Janie Jordan (12:27):
And it's very nuanced.
A lot of this, a lot of whatwe're talking about here, is
very nuanced, and when you'rethe leader of an organization
and you think your communicationskills and they should be
you're leading an organization,you're leading the vision,
you're motivating, you'releading your teams, but it's the
(12:49):
nuance, isn't it, tom?
That nuance, when the stakesare really high, the make it or
break it moment in the role ofthe CEO is a critical one.
Tom Mueller (13:01):
It is, but it's also sort, you know, sort of
understanding your role, right.
Janie Jordan (13:06):
Yes.
Tom Mueller (13:06):
Stepping up to the microphone and pledging the
resources of the corporation tomake things right here, and then
stepping back and saying let myoperations people now tell you
how we're going to do that.
Janie Jordan (13:21):
Absolutely 100%.
That is absolutely the playbook.
Tom Mueller (13:26):
Well, I guess we'll stop it there, Janie.
Thank you so much for takingtime to join us on the podcast
today.
Really enjoyed the conversationand hopefully we'll get you to
come back soon, one of thesedays.
Janie Jordan (13:39):
Thank you, tom, I've enjoyed our conversation
very much.
Tom Mueller (13:44):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you again soon foranother episode.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
I'm Tom Mueller On our podcasttoday.
We're continuing ourconversation with Janie Jordan
from Sydney, australialeadership coach, a strategic
(00:28):
advisor and a high-stakescommunications expert with many
years experience working in thecommunications field.
Today we continue ourconversation and we're going to
focus on long-form interviewslike podcasts, the risks and
opportunities that come withthose and why it may not be
right for every executive, andthen we'll also talk about the
role of the CEO in the crisis.
We'll look at some recentairline incidents and get
(00:52):
Janie's take on the executivecommunications around those.
Let's join the conversation now.
You know, janie, there'sanother issue.
That's around training.
These days, I know mediatraining programs.
You know we're incorporatingnow the long form podcast
interview as part of that andyou know, and just giving
(01:13):
participants an opportunity tofeel the more relaxed atmosphere
there, let your guard down alittle bit and then potentially
get yourself into trouble.
So there is.
You know it's very authenticway to communicate but, as we've
said, there's still quite a bitof risk in that.
So it's interesting to putpeople in that situation in a
(01:36):
training environment and givethem the opportunity to explore
it a little bit.
It's not for everyone.
Janie Jordan (01:43):
Absolutely not for everyone.
I think that's fantastic andthat you're doing that.
I haven't heard a lot of thathappening here in Australia,
actually, and I can.
I always say when I was youknow when, in my full on
training days, as opposed to thecoaching I do now and it was
(02:03):
like for me people go, oh, printis easy, it's just like having
a conversation I'd go, no, no,no, no, no.
That's actually the hardest,that is the most challenging
interview you will ever do.
Tv is easy, you know.
I mean cameras are going topotentially maybe frighten you
(02:24):
or you're going to be so awareand get tongue-tied because
you're on camera, but allthey're looking for is a clean
grab.
You give them a nice, cleansentence.
The weather in Sydney today wasblistering hot and we were at
40 degrees and the humidity was100% right.
That's a nice clean grab.
They're happy.
But when you're in a long-forminterview like a podcast or like
(02:50):
a print interview, even if it'sjust going online, there is
risk everywhere, because yourelax and the trained
interviewer, the podcaster orthe journalist can navigate or
take you down a path to get youknow a good, clean angle or
(03:15):
something that's a bit spicy.
It's going to cut through theclutter, get unique visits.
It's tough.
Tom Mueller (03:24):
Yeah.
Janie Jordan (03:24):
They're very tough interviews and I think if you
can nail a long-form interview,nail a print interview, you
actually have real listeningskills and you are performing at
a high level, because it's ahigh performance level we're
talking here.
Tom Mueller (03:42):
It's the most authentic form of conversation
now, that long form interviewbut you have to be on the ball
all the time and it is, asyou've said, a quite unique
challenge because you want to beauthentic.
You have to be authentic inthat kind of conversation, but
(04:03):
you still have to stay onmessage and be interesting and
all of that which, again, thefact that the politicians are
embracing that now, I think,gives us a much better picture
of them personally through thosetypes of interviews.
(04:25):
Janie, one other thing I wantedto kind of just touch base with
you on the crisis communicationssphere, because we've had some
examples recently of aircraftincidents here, in America and
we've seen, you know, a varietyof responses from the aircraft
(04:48):
or the airlines to that, and oneof the things that seems to be
a best practice now among thebig airlines here in the States
is getting a CEO video out veryquickly to express that care and
concern, provide a bit ofinformation, then to thank those
(05:09):
who are responding and helpingto resolve this situation, and
we've seen a couple of reallygood examples of that with.
Southwest Airlines had anincident a few years ago where
an engine exploded in flight andpunctured a fuselage and killed
a passenger, but they had a CEOvideo up within about four
(05:31):
hours.
And then I fast forward now tothe American Airlines crash at
Reagan National Airport inWashington DC.
That collided with a militaryhelicopter and American Airlines
had a very, very well done CEOvideo up within just two to
(05:51):
three hours of the incident.
So it was a remarkableturnaround to get a CEO in the
room, have a script, have thempractice, deliver it and get it
published within two to threehours of notification of an
incident.
That speaks well to the plan,but probably also of the CEO.
(06:15):
What's your take on those?
Janie Jordan (06:18):
I think that video is very, very powerful and it
is what I'm seeing.
A trend here is video, video,video in very many different
channels.
So my take on it is that thatshows best practice.
(06:40):
I agree with you.
I think we are looking at bestpractice in that situation and,
quite frankly, it should be.
I mean, airlines are in adangerous business but it's part
of their operations.
You know they've got to beprepared with those sorts of
things because they're going tohappen.
They happen right.
(07:00):
So I would go yes, it's bestpractice.
It's fabulous that they had,you know, had the CEO out there
with the right care and concern.
It's almost like they need tobe templated, because you don't
know what the details of theincident is and, heavens above,
(07:22):
no one would ever have thoughtthat you'd have an army
helicopter.
That crash was absolutelyterrifying.
I mean, that's a crisis for theair traffic controllers and
department and every levelreally, because that is shocking
, shocking.
It was really hard to get yourhead around.
So my takeover all, tom, isthat it's a fantastic
(07:46):
development in our practice andone that I think needs even more
.
It could really, if you that'spossible, with the right
training, the right preparation,to be out in an hour and I
would go today we don't have.
You know, the golden hour isabout 15 minutes and I know,
(08:07):
even for years and years,decades and decades of practice,
shell has always said that ifthey can't get something out in
20 minutes, then something'swrong.
And that was before this crazysocial media age, this digital
age we're in.
So if you're in a high highrisk issue, rich environment
(08:32):
organization, then you have noexcuse, not.
You must be prepared, you musthave plans, you must have your
digital tools at the ready.
Tom Mueller (08:46):
And your CEO or senior executive needs to be
ready to turn it up and turn iton very quickly.
But, janie, in your experience,how many CEOs out there can
muster that level of empathy andthat perfect delivery, like we
saw with some of these Americanairline companies?
(09:07):
Well, I think I could countthem on one hand, and that's,
you know, the CEO might not beyour best spokesperson in a
situation.
Janie Jordan (09:17):
Very, very good point and one I feel quite
passionate about, really,because it goes to you know
quick news, breaking news.
Who's going to be available atthat breaking news stage?
And, let's face it, tom, youdon't want your CEO or the chair
of the board stuffing it up,screwing it up.
You know, because where do yougo from there?
(09:38):
So you know the head ofoperations.
You know you want that personto be over, to be ready.
Who's first on the ground.
You know.
If you go back to what pointpoint I was making earlier,
contemporary modern practiceanyone can declare a crisis.
So some of the bestspokespeople have been from the
(09:58):
trenches.
Because they know inside out,every single day, their
operations.
They are best equipped toquickly put something together
and then you can escalate.
You know after the news is outand then you can.
You know, two hours, two, threehours is more acceptable If
(10:22):
you've spoken out, got somebodyout quickly within the first 15,
20 minutes.
That's key.
It might be something on X oryou might have something you can
vision, because the vision isthe powerful one, and it's trust
, because we can.
You know, look in their eyes.
Do I trust you?
(10:43):
Do you really care?
You've killed somebody, one'stoo many.
So that's my take.
So very few people get it rightimmediately, and you've
probably seen that in thetraining room too, tom.
Tom Mueller (10:57):
Yeah, and that's why you need to make sure your
CEO and executive team aretrained and practiced in crisis
communications, because younever know who's going to be on
duty at the time somethinghappens.
Janie Jordan (11:11):
So be ready for that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Mueller (11:14):
And it's about, as you've said, janie, who brings
credibility, and when you have asort of very knowledgeable
operations person at themicrophone, they just naturally
bring that.
Of course, your CEO brings thatbecause of the gravitas of the
position.
Yeah, but it can all gosideways in a hurry.
Janie Jordan (11:34):
The poster child really for how things could go
sideways in a hurry is.
It was always going to be TonyHayward in BP.
You know poor man, but you knowhe is the post child of how not
to do it.
Tom Mueller (11:48):
Yeah, and that was during deep water horizon oil
spill in the States.
I worked as a PIO for BP'sincident commander for that
incident, and so I have a wholemodule I do now on the role of
the CEO in a crisis, and Tony'sa prime example of a man who
(12:09):
cared very deeply but didn'tunderstand his role and position
.
And that got him into a lot oftrouble.
Yes, so that'll be anotherconversation for us down the
road.
Janie is just that role of theCEO, because there's so much to
cover there.
Janie Jordan (12:27):
And it's very nuanced.
A lot of this, a lot of whatwe're talking about here, is
very nuanced, and when you'rethe leader of an organization
and you think your communicationskills and they should be
you're leading an organization,you're leading the vision,
you're motivating, you'releading your teams, but it's the
(12:49):
nuance, isn't it, tom?
That nuance, when the stakesare really high, the make it or
break it moment in the role ofthe CEO is a critical one.
Tom Mueller (13:01):
It is, but it's also sort, you know, sort of
understanding your role, right.
Janie Jordan (13:06):
Yes.
Tom Mueller (13:06):
Stepping up to the microphone and pledging the
resources of the corporation tomake things right here, and then
stepping back and saying let myoperations people now tell you
how we're going to do that.
Janie Jordan (13:21):
Absolutely 100%.
That is absolutely the playbook.
Tom Mueller (13:26):
Well, I guess we'll stop it there, Janie.
Thank you so much for takingtime to join us on the podcast
today.
Really enjoyed the conversationand hopefully we'll get you to
come back soon, one of thesedays.
Janie Jordan (13:39):
Thank you, tom, I've enjoyed our conversation
very much.
Tom Mueller (13:44):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you again soon foranother episode.
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