April 30, 2025 • 33 mins
Leadership under pressure doesn't get much more intense than directing wildland firefighting operations when lives hang in the balance. Kelly Martin, former Chief of Fire and Aviation for Yosemite National Park, brings us into the heart-stopping moments where leadership decisions mean the difference between safety and catastrophe.
Drawing from decades on fire lines, Martin recounts responding to devastating aircraft accidents that forced her to question whether she was cut out for crisis leadership. "You have to take a deep introspection and ask yourself if you're ready to step up when people are at their worst moments and they're looking for leadership," she shares, revealing how these experiences shaped her approach to crisis preparation and management.
Whether you lead teams in high-risk environments or simply want to develop your crisis management skills, this episode delivers powerful, sometimes harrowing lessons from someone who has literally walked through fire to protect others. Subscribe now to hear more stories from exceptional crisis leaders who've faced the ultimate test of leadership.
You can reach Kelly Martin via LinkedIn.
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:07):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast we talk allthings crisis management, with a
focus on storytelling andlessons learned and shared from
experienced crisis leaders.
We're very glad to have youback with us today.
I'm Tom Mueller.
My co-host, mark Mullen, is onassignment today and won't be
(00:29):
with us, but will be back withus for an upcoming episode On
our podcast.
Today we are talkingfirefighting again.
I kind of like this subjectbecause at one point early in my
career I actually put on bunkergear and participated in fire
(00:51):
training when I worked at one ofthe country's largest oil
refineries.
So I've got some experiencebeing on a hose, working with a
team to kill a fire that wouldlike nothing better than to just
burn you alive.
So it's a scary proposition andfrom that experience I've just
developed the deepest respectfor the firefighters who do this
(01:15):
day in and day out, especiallyfor those brave men and women
who fight wildland fires, as ourguest today has done and our
guest is Kelly.
Martin Kelly's the owner ofLassere Fire Consulting, and
Kelly has a long resume offirefighting and we'll talk
(01:38):
about that just a little bit,but today she spends her time
lobbying on behalf offirefighters and firefighter
issues Kelly, welcome to theshow.
Kelly Martin (01:50):
Tom, it's great to be with you.
I really really sincerelyappreciate the invitation.
Tom Mueller (01:55):
Kelly, I know from your background and resume that
you've spent a lot of time sortof as an aviation specialist.
You worked as chief of fire andaviation for Yosemite National
Park for several years, inaddition to working for the US
Forest Service.
Hollywood has made somedramatic movies about
(02:19):
firefighters and pilots and allthat, and maybe at the end here
I'll get your top firefightermovie recommendations.
But it's a dangerous businessand I'm wondering have you had
to deal with any aircraftmishaps or crashes in your
(02:39):
experience over the years?
Kelly Martin (02:51):
I have.
And it started in the 80s whenI worked at Grand Canyon
National Park, when I wasworking as a newly minted EMT
and I was responding on ourstructure engine to a twin otter
accident at the airport and Iwas fully expecting to just be,
you know, protection in as astructural firefighter.
But the incident commander knewthat I had just finished my EMT
(03:15):
training and he said didn't youjust finish your EMT training?
He says, why don't you comewith me?
So we still had people insidethe, the twin otter that were
still alive, that needed help.
And so I think, as a new personin their 20s and you for me, I
was taken EMT because I knewthat the job that I was getting
(03:37):
into was very, very dangerousand I wanted to be able to help.
You know my fellow firefighters, you know if anything happened
on the fire line.
So I really was not expectingyou know what I witnessed.
You know, inside that aircraftI had two more aircraft
responses and at that point Ikind of knew that I didn't
really want to be, you know,working as a paramedic or an EMT
(04:00):
.
So I really did switch then andduring those years to wildland
fire and I really did want to domore work in the outdoors and
so that really suited me well.
And then in about I think it was2002, there was an air tanker
crash in Walker Canyon, on theSierra front, during an aviation
(04:22):
or a retardant drop, and thatwas really horrifying.
A couple of reasons One is Iwas in the position at dispatch
to inform the regional office ofthe manifest of the people that
were on board that air tankerand I didn't get good
(04:43):
information from the air tankerbase and it was the wrong
manifest.
And so in the middle of allthis, you know, I had to quote,
unquote, stop the pressesbecause the manifest was wrong.
So really a horrifyingexperience, if you can imagine.
You know, had that, you know,gone on through the up through
the system with the wrong, wrongnames of the people that were
(05:04):
on the aircraft, and then there,through the up through the
system with the wrong, wrongnames of the people that were on
the aircraft, and then therewas a one of the pilots' wife
was there at the air tanker base, and so having to console, you
know, someone that knew that theaircraft was not coming back
was extremely hard, and it wasvery hard for our dispatchers
(05:25):
because they knew they had aMayday and a major you know
accident and fatality.
So these happen and those arejust the few things that
happened on the early part of mycareer and so I really began to
.
You have to really take a deepintrospection and ask yourself
(05:47):
is this, am I cut out for this,you know?
Am I ready to step up and lead?
You know, when people are attheir worst moments and it's not
just one person or a couple ofpeople, but it's the whole
organization that's trulysuffering and they're looking
for leadership, but it's thewhole organization that's truly
suffering and they're lookingfor leadership and sometimes you
just don't know what to do, butyou're the one everybody's
(06:09):
looking to, and being able tohave communications with people
that are also, you know, part ofyour team is extremely
important.
Tom Mueller (06:23):
So, Kelly, those are clearly some difficult
situations that you had to dealwith.
What sort of leadership lessonsdid you take away from having
to deal with fatalities and thecomplicating factors in those
situations?
Kelly Martin (06:42):
first I felt like I could handle those kinds of
situations as extremely painfuland traumatic as they've been.
I felt like this is something Ithink I can help people with
(07:05):
and in so doing, it reallyforced me into thinking about
how can I better be prepared oranticipate like the worst
possible day, and that reallykind of set me on a journey of
tabletop exercises, pre-seasonevent planning, exercises,
(07:27):
pre-season event planning.
You know anything that I coulddo to work with my team and work
with our cooperators to say Ihope this never happens, but if
it does, we are here in a safeenvironment, in a learning
environment.
We know we're learning fromeach other about what could
possibly go wrong and how wewill handle that as a team.
(07:48):
I think that was that's been sovaluable for me over the years.
Tom Mueller (07:56):
Clearly those are some key takeaways, I think, for
any potential crisis leader isbeing prepared for the
unexpected and of course, in thefirefighting realm it can be
life and death on every givenday.
Every given fire.
Right, you know, a suddenchange in the wind can put
(08:21):
firefighters on the ground atrisk quickly.
Or, you know, a bad incidentaction plan, can, you know,
result in people being in thewrong place when something
happens or something changes.
So there's a lot of variablesthat come into play here.
And how do you and how do youdeal with the uncertainty that
(08:48):
comes with that?
Are there processes in place togive you that confidence and
comfort?
Kelly Martin (09:00):
that you can lead and keep people safe every day.
The anticipation of an eventkeeps me very humble, and I'll
be the first to admit that Idon't know everything, and
neither do any of us inemergency management, and so,
(09:21):
through the years, the bestadvice that I've been given is
truly to find, you know, goodmentors, you know people that
are my scene in.
You know both rank andexperience, and knowing that
(09:42):
those individuals have also beenthrough some, you know pretty,
pretty crappy days and andknowing that there's people
there, that you're not alone, Ithink is probably one of the big
, biggest takeaways for me.
But sometimes you do findyourself alone and you're going
to have to.
You can't just freeze.
You know there's.
(10:03):
There's so many people that arelistening to you on the radio.
They're looking for advice,they're looking for direction.
The worst thing you can do isjust not make a decision or just
, you know, freeze in the in themiddle of a, of a crisis.
You know you've got to be ableto say, yeah, there's going to
be some, some horrible dayspotentially ahead in my career.
(10:26):
Am I ready for that?
And and what am I doing toprepare and train for that?
That's probably the biggestthing that I have taken away in
my career.
You just can't again.
Humbleness versus hubris is isthe way to really think about
(10:47):
how you prepare yourself, youknow, mentally, physically,
emotionally for crisismanagement.
Tom Mueller (10:56):
I want to take you back in time a little bit
because you've mentioned to mebefore your experience dealing
with a fire situation and sortof the hubris versus humility
issue comes to mind from that,and that was the Sadler fire
back in early 2000s.
I think you know.
(11:17):
I know you have a story or twoaround that.
What was your experience thereand kind of lessons taken away
from that?
Kelly Martin (11:24):
Yeah, during that incident I think there was four
fires that eventuallytransitioned into a type one
incident called the Sadlerincident, but I was on one of
the smaller fires that we weretrying to contain.
I had quite a bit of resourcesassigned to me and one of my
(11:50):
objectives for the day was tocut dozer line, flank it around
the active fire edge andcontinue to flank it to the
north and then to use hand crewsor people on the ground and
engines to actually burn out theunburned fuel between the dozer
(12:10):
line and the main fire frontthat was going to threaten the
dozer line.
Tom Mueller (12:18):
And for people not familiar with some of the
terminology here is you'rebasically just trying to light a
backfire, basically to burn outsome underbrush so that the big
fire stops in its tracks.
Kelly Martin (12:32):
Yeah, so when you're working in especially a
large, you know, grass or brushum fire and we were in Nevada,
uh, at the, that's where theSadler fire um took place the
idea being is that you know adozer is only eight foot wide
and if the, if the main fire youknow hits that dozer line and
(12:53):
you have all this unburned fuelbetween the main fire and the
dozer line, there's a goodchance that that fire is going
to slap over and burn across thedozer line.
So the the idea is is that youstarve the main fire.
Your control line is the dozerline, and so hand crews and
engines can support that burnoutoperation to reduce the density
(13:17):
and consistency of fuel.
Now that it's black between thedozer line and the main fire,
you don't have to go all the wayto the main fire edge, you just
need to get it deep enough sowhen the main fire does hit your
burnout operation, that it'snot going to threaten your
containment lines.
Tom Mueller (13:34):
Okay, go ahead and continue with the story now.
So you're out there working it.
And things got complicated here, didn't they?
Kelly Martin (13:43):
Whenever you're working a wildland fire and we
affectionately call it thewitching hour by about 1231
o'clock the winds start pickingup very dangerous time, you know
.
If you're not in a safe placeand if there's lack of
(14:09):
communication, it can be very,it can be a very, very dangerous
situation.
Unbeknownst to me, the one ofthe resources that were to
report to me in the morning gotdelayed and I'm out on the fire
line, you know, working withother resources and the dozer,
and all of a sudden I get a callfrom the crew boss trainee for
(14:35):
this hand crew that was assignedto my division that morning and
they said you know, we're stuckon this road and we can't stuck
on this road and we can'tcommunicate with our crew boss
and we have fire coming towardsus.
And when you hear that, yourheart just skips lots of beats
(15:00):
because now all of a sudden it'slike something terrible is
about to happen and you're inthis middle of somebody's
looking for direction andinstruction to basically save
them and and their crew and theonly thing I could think of is
like, if you can't get a hold,let's hope your crew boss is
okay, but you need to get thebus and the people out of there.
(15:23):
You cannot withstand a flamingfront hitting that bus.
And so the crew boss did saythat there was an escape route
and a road that went off to theeast, I believe, and I said,
please just move, get everybodyon the bus and get out of there
and let the fire pass, and we'lldeal with that'll.
(15:45):
We'll, we'll deal with thatlater on in the day.
I was so thankful that they didsuccessfully make it out of
there, but there was a lot ofanxiety.
I mean I think there was.
There was also an engine thatwas behind the, this particular
crew as well, and they followedthem out the road as well.
(16:06):
I had no visual of what if thatroad was going to hold a fire
front, but they got up and overand on the back side of a ridge
and and were protected.
At that point everybody knewthat there was a missing person
and and the air attack and thehelicopter and everybody was
(16:27):
trying to call the, the crewboss, you know, on command on
air to ground, on tacticalfrequencies, with with no, with
no contact at all.
So again, you know, the wholefire just goes quiet when, when
a person goes missing or they'reout of communication, because
(16:47):
people really do think you knowthe worst, especially when
there's no contact on any.
You know frequency, as ithappened, I think there was one
of the helicopters actuallyspotted this person in the black
, which is the burned out area,and I believe that they didn't
(17:09):
land, that.
The person actually got in thebucket in the helicopter,
actually flew this person tosafety.
So after all that, knowing thatthe crew boss was accounted for
, he was flown to safety, thebus and the engine people were
in a safe spot.
(17:30):
It's very, very, very difficultto re-engage in operations when
this just happened to you andyou've had to make split second
decisions to save people's lives.
So there wasn't a whole lotmore that we could do that
afternoon and I told the crewthat I'd meet him in a camp.
(17:54):
You know, that night we hadpretty much, you know, finished
our dozer operation or our lineconstruction operation.
So it really at that pointthere was not the sense of
urgency that we had like two orthree hours earlier, as the
winds and the fire behavior wasstarting to pick up.
Tom Mueller (18:13):
Yeah, so what are the key sort of takeaways from
that then?
I mean, was there decisionmaking on the ground that you
know that could have beendifferent to prevent that?
Or how do you assess you knowthat could have been different
to prevent that, or how do youassess you know the key lessons
from that?
Kelly Martin (18:31):
No, I always look at myself first and when I have
a new crew or a crew, you knowwe call them regulars or you
know type two crews they're nothotshot crews that are assigned
to us and you're unfamiliar withtheir.
You know type two crews.
They're not hotshot crews thatare assigned to us and you're
unfamiliar with their experience, qualifications and expertise.
(18:52):
The thing that I took away onthat particular incident was
trust but verify, and I gotsucked up into believing the
crew boss that the crew was veryexperienced, you know burning,
and that they should be giventhis opportunity to work with me
to do this burnout operation,operation.
(19:20):
And um, I'm like, yeah, let'sthat, that's what we will do.
Um, tomorrow morning is we'llhave you work, you know, behind
the dozer to to do that burnout.
So that was the the piece forme.
Was you really in in thisfast-moving fire world?
You just sometimes you justnever know what you're going to
get and it's really importantthat you judge yourself how
those resources, how qualifiedare those resources to do the
(19:44):
assignment that you want them todo?
That's where we can getourselves in a lot of trouble.
Number one is that maybe a crewis over inflating their, their
qualifications and experienceand you wouldn't know that until
they came to work with you andyou could hear them on the radio
and you could watch theirproduction and you could watch
their inner crew dynamics.
(20:05):
And then you go okay, yeah, Ihave a high degree of confidence
in these crews to assign themto more hotline, if you will.
So I think that was the one ofthe the biggest takeaways.
But I also wanted to kind ofresolve what I thought was a
(20:28):
near miss.
The next morning, that evening,when the crew came in, there was
there was quite a bit of verbalexchange between myself and the
crew boss, in that he felt likeI didn't trust him and he knew
where he was and I directed thecrew boss trainee to do
something that he didn't want todo.
(20:48):
Anyway, it was just a verytense situation.
I said all right, let's startagain in the morning, get your
crew some rest.
All right, let's start again inthe morning, get your crew some
rest.
Unbeknownst to me, thatparticular crew took off and I
never saw them, you know, thenext morning, and I really
wanted the incoming team to kindof know you know what happened,
(21:08):
cause this isn't, this wasn't.
This didn't shut down ouroperation, but it was a, it was
a close call and I needed tomake sure that people knew about
this.
So I feel like I didn't makethat very clear to the incoming
team.
But I also felt like theincoming team, you know, wasn't
receptive to my providing themwith that information.
(21:30):
As it was, the crew went toanother part of the fire and
they narrowly escaped anotherburn over and and, um, you know
where people actually did deployshelters um this time.
So it was like how could thishappen again?
You know it, it was a closecall on my part of the fire and
now they had a shelterdeployment on another part of
(21:54):
the fire.
Tom Mueller (21:54):
So I just when we talk about a shelter deployment
now, we're talking about worstcase scenario here, right?
Kelly Martin (22:01):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yep.
Tom Mueller (22:04):
Give us, paint us a quick picture of what would
that look like if you're on afire team on the ground and the
boss says you know what's thecommand there.
Kelly Martin (22:16):
It may not necessarily even come from the
crew boss, which is like thefirst line supervisor of 20
people.
It could come from the squadboss and people are feeling like
they have no escape route,which is either run down the
road, you know one way or theother, or they see this big
flaming front coming towardsthem and they have.
(22:38):
They can't run through the fire, and so they pick a spot that
is hopefully a void of fuel, ofvegetation, and then they pull
out.
Everybody is required to carrya fire shelter, so they pull out
their fire shelter and get intothis fire shelter and let the
(23:00):
fire, you know, run through themnot through them, but you know,
around and that fire shelter issupposed to deflect the heat.
It's the worst case scenario.
You never.
I mean we, we encourage peopleto use fire shelters if they, if
they have no other choice.
But you know, more and morepeople are really recognizing
(23:21):
that they they have to be awarethat they could potentially get
into a burn over situation atthe worst possible time during
the day and they may have tomake different decisions.
And so when that happened thevery next day, I knew something
was terribly wrong, you know,with the communication and the
(23:42):
ability of this crew to takethis kind of or challenges or
too much risk-taking.
Tom Mueller (24:02):
I want to share a story with you of just from my
time working in the energyindustry.
I worked for a big refinerypetroleum refinery that I
mentioned at the top and ofcourse we have trained
firefighters inside thosefacilities who are trained to
respond to hydrocarbon fires,because you've got lots of
(24:23):
flammable materials goingthrough pipes and heat
exchangers and pumps and valvesat high temperatures, and so the
potential for fire is everpresent.
And there was a couple ofincidents that I recall where
one of the firefightingsupervisors got his crew of
folks in too close to harm's wayand took you know what was
(24:48):
later determined to beinappropriate levels of risk
with those people to try, andyou know, get a fire
extinguished to try, and youknow get a fire extinguished and
the I remember you know thefire crews themselves kind of
losing confidence in thatparticular leader and that led
to, you know, somereorganizations and some
(25:09):
personnel changes and jobreassignments because of that
lack of trust and just you knowthe sort of behaviors that he
showed that put people at risk.
So is that maybe what we wereseeing on the site there?
Kelly Martin (25:28):
I do believe that there's a difference again
between the humble and hubris,decision-making and, you know,
an attempt at ego, not beingable to make good decisions
because no one wants to feellike they're a failure.
So I do think that sometimespeople enter into, you know, a
(25:53):
situation where all the signsare there for a potential
catastrophe and they still go inanyways and you're working with
young people that you'resupposed to be training and
helping them understand, and ifthey don't feel confident in
asking questions about whatthey're doing, it can be very
(26:13):
catastrophic.
This particular person I saw onanother fire assignment three
weeks later and I honestly myjaw dropped and he had a
different group of people.
They weren't the same peoplebut it was a different group of
people and I, number one, Icouldn't believe he was back on
(26:35):
the fire line and leading peopleagain.
And number two, he was prettydetermined to take the crew into
a canyon bottom downhill lineconstruction, which we know is a
watch out situation.
What we consider it's not thatyou can't do it, but you have to
be very prepared that the firecould race up out of the canyon
(26:59):
bottom and trap the crew.
There was really no reason forthe crew to go and I didn't even
direct them to do that.
But the crew boss, the guy thatI had the issue with three
weeks earlier, felt that hecould get his crew in there.
And again, it's not a hotshotcrew, it's a, you know, a type
(27:19):
two crew that some of thosepeople are meeting for the first
time, you know, on thisassignment.
And I said I had to give adirect order that that he would
not be going down, you know,into that Canyon and assign him
to another.
You know another part of theincident.
Well, when I got back into campthat night I was making phone
(27:41):
calls to the operations sectionchief, to the incident
commanders from the Sadler fire,to say this person is still out
on the fire line and he isstill directing and leading
firefighters and not making gooddecisions yet again.
So it was an unfortunatesituation that you know that I
(28:04):
had to be the one to step in andbe the bad guy, if you will.
And you know I suffered someblowback for that because the
whole crew was demobbed ordemobilized from the incident.
So when there's a safety issueand collectively, the team not
me, but the team agrees thatyeah, this person needs to be
(28:27):
demobilized and the whole crew,because the crew doesn't have
leadership, and so that's whathappens.
So when something like thathappens and it's not clearly
understood as to why both theleader and the crew were being
sent home, it can really causehard feelings.
But you know you got to thinkabout the bigger picture and
(28:52):
what your objective is.
It's not to smooth over egos,it's to ensure that there's you
know, every day, every firethroughout the day, that
everyone is safe and that gooddecisions are the best decisions
are being made possible.
Tom Mueller (29:10):
I it's just very, very hard because every day
changes but it's so challengingbecause it seems sometimes we go
through incidents like that andthe issues aren't they aren't
resolved for us, right.
We're still wrestling those andtrying to figure out you know,
what could I have done better,how should I have handled that
(29:30):
differently?
And of course all that leads tostress and you know the
post-traumatic stress injurythat can happen to us when we
deal with traumatic incidentslike that.
You know how much do you seethat.
You know post-traumatic stressissues in crews that you work
(29:51):
with.
And then what's your advice andapproach for dealing with that
in the firefighting realm?
Kelly Martin (29:57):
It's real, ptsd is real and I think we are finally
beginning to appreciate andaccept that mental health
challenges for first respondersand wildland firefighters that
may have witnessed the is thedeath of a coworker or an
aircraft accident those never goaway and people process those
(30:24):
things that they can never unseedifferently and it does become
a remnant in your body and inyour soul.
I'm so glad that our cultureand our workplace environment is
really recognizing that mentalhealth is just as important, if
(30:45):
not more important, than, youknow, the physical health and
wellbeing of firefighters.
It's one that it's an area thatwe don't really like talking
about suicide.
We don't like talking aboutmental health and needing help.
It's in this type of, you know,hyper-masculine type of
environment, I think years pastused to be seen as a sign of
(31:09):
weakness and we can't keepcontinuing to do that to our
employees.
And so, you know, having a, youknow, robust mental health
support system, you know, forPTSD and and actually getting
claims approved for mentalhealth issues is is super
(31:32):
important.
I mean, if we're going to, ifwe're going to have a strong and
robust workforce, you know,going forth in the future, we
have to think about thisholistically.
We have to think about themental health, the physical
health, the financial health,the relationships this comes
(31:54):
into play in developing andmaintaining and recruiting a
workforce that can do this workfor 20 or 25 years.
And it's very, very difficultif we can't, you know, recognize
all those different, you know,spokes that come together in
ourselves as the hub of these.
(32:16):
You know situations that all ofthese have to be, you know,
taken care of, and I'll be thefirst to admit that I didn't,
you know, recognize a lot ofthis in my own career, but I'm
now in a position where I cansupport the next generation, or
this generation and the nextgeneration for, you know, this
kind of, you know health andwellness reforms that is so
(32:38):
desperately needed.
Tom Mueller (32:41):
All right, kelly, thanks so much for joining us
today on the podcast.
We appreciate you kind ofsharing your lessons learned and
some of those leadershipchallenges that you know that
any leader in a crisis situationis going to face.
So thank you again for beingwith us.
Kelly Martin (32:59):
It was my pleasure and I sincerely appreciate your
outreach to the individualsthat will hopefully be able to
take something away from this,so thanks again, tom.
Tom Mueller (33:09):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
If you like what you're hearing, then please like and subscribe
to the podcast and tell yourfriends about us as well, and
we'll see you again soon foranother episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast we talk allthings crisis management, with a
focus on storytelling andlessons learned and shared from
experienced crisis leaders.
We're very glad to have youback with us today.
I'm Tom Mueller.
My co-host, mark Mullen, is onassignment today and won't be
(00:29):
with us, but will be back withus for an upcoming episode On
our podcast.
Today we are talkingfirefighting again.
I kind of like this subjectbecause at one point early in my
career I actually put on bunkergear and participated in fire
(00:51):
training when I worked at one ofthe country's largest oil
refineries.
So I've got some experiencebeing on a hose, working with a
team to kill a fire that wouldlike nothing better than to just
burn you alive.
So it's a scary proposition andfrom that experience I've just
developed the deepest respectfor the firefighters who do this
(01:15):
day in and day out, especiallyfor those brave men and women
who fight wildland fires, as ourguest today has done and our
guest is Kelly.
Martin Kelly's the owner ofLassere Fire Consulting, and
Kelly has a long resume offirefighting and we'll talk
(01:38):
about that just a little bit,but today she spends her time
lobbying on behalf offirefighters and firefighter
issues Kelly, welcome to theshow.
Kelly Martin (01:50):
Tom, it's great to be with you.
I really really sincerelyappreciate the invitation.
Tom Mueller (01:55):
Kelly, I know from your background and resume that
you've spent a lot of time sortof as an aviation specialist.
You worked as chief of fire andaviation for Yosemite National
Park for several years, inaddition to working for the US
Forest Service.
Hollywood has made somedramatic movies about
(02:19):
firefighters and pilots and allthat, and maybe at the end here
I'll get your top firefightermovie recommendations.
But it's a dangerous businessand I'm wondering have you had
to deal with any aircraftmishaps or crashes in your
(02:39):
experience over the years?
Kelly Martin (02:51):
I have.
And it started in the 80s whenI worked at Grand Canyon
National Park, when I wasworking as a newly minted EMT
and I was responding on ourstructure engine to a twin otter
accident at the airport and Iwas fully expecting to just be,
you know, protection in as astructural firefighter.
But the incident commander knewthat I had just finished my EMT
(03:15):
training and he said didn't youjust finish your EMT training?
He says, why don't you comewith me?
So we still had people insidethe, the twin otter that were
still alive, that needed help.
And so I think, as a new personin their 20s and you for me, I
was taken EMT because I knewthat the job that I was getting
(03:37):
into was very, very dangerousand I wanted to be able to help.
You know my fellow firefighters, you know if anything happened
on the fire line.
So I really was not expectingyou know what I witnessed.
You know, inside that aircraftI had two more aircraft
responses and at that point Ikind of knew that I didn't
really want to be, you know,working as a paramedic or an EMT
(04:00):
.
So I really did switch then andduring those years to wildland
fire and I really did want to domore work in the outdoors and
so that really suited me well.
And then in about I think it was2002, there was an air tanker
crash in Walker Canyon, on theSierra front, during an aviation
(04:22):
or a retardant drop, and thatwas really horrifying.
A couple of reasons One is Iwas in the position at dispatch
to inform the regional office ofthe manifest of the people that
were on board that air tankerand I didn't get good
(04:43):
information from the air tankerbase and it was the wrong
manifest.
And so in the middle of allthis, you know, I had to quote,
unquote, stop the pressesbecause the manifest was wrong.
So really a horrifyingexperience, if you can imagine.
You know, had that, you know,gone on through the up through
the system with the wrong, wrongnames of the people that were
(05:04):
on the aircraft, and then there,through the up through the
system with the wrong, wrongnames of the people that were on
the aircraft, and then therewas a one of the pilots' wife
was there at the air tanker base, and so having to console, you
know, someone that knew that theaircraft was not coming back
was extremely hard, and it wasvery hard for our dispatchers
(05:25):
because they knew they had aMayday and a major you know
accident and fatality.
So these happen and those arejust the few things that
happened on the early part of mycareer and so I really began to
.
You have to really take a deepintrospection and ask yourself
(05:47):
is this, am I cut out for this,you know?
Am I ready to step up and lead?
You know, when people are attheir worst moments and it's not
just one person or a couple ofpeople, but it's the whole
organization that's trulysuffering and they're looking
for leadership, but it's thewhole organization that's truly
suffering and they're lookingfor leadership and sometimes you
just don't know what to do, butyou're the one everybody's
(06:09):
looking to, and being able tohave communications with people
that are also, you know, part ofyour team is extremely
important.
Tom Mueller (06:23):
So, Kelly, those are clearly some difficult
situations that you had to dealwith.
What sort of leadership lessonsdid you take away from having
to deal with fatalities and thecomplicating factors in those
situations?
Kelly Martin (06:42):
first I felt like I could handle those kinds of
situations as extremely painfuland traumatic as they've been.
I felt like this is something Ithink I can help people with
(07:05):
and in so doing, it reallyforced me into thinking about
how can I better be prepared oranticipate like the worst
possible day, and that reallykind of set me on a journey of
tabletop exercises, pre-seasonevent planning, exercises,
(07:27):
pre-season event planning.
You know anything that I coulddo to work with my team and work
with our cooperators to say Ihope this never happens, but if
it does, we are here in a safeenvironment, in a learning
environment.
We know we're learning fromeach other about what could
possibly go wrong and how wewill handle that as a team.
(07:48):
I think that was that's been sovaluable for me over the years.
Tom Mueller (07:56):
Clearly those are some key takeaways, I think, for
any potential crisis leader isbeing prepared for the
unexpected and of course, in thefirefighting realm it can be
life and death on every givenday.
Every given fire.
Right, you know, a suddenchange in the wind can put
(08:21):
firefighters on the ground atrisk quickly.
Or, you know, a bad incidentaction plan, can, you know,
result in people being in thewrong place when something
happens or something changes.
So there's a lot of variablesthat come into play here.
And how do you and how do youdeal with the uncertainty that
(08:48):
comes with that?
Are there processes in place togive you that confidence and
comfort?
Kelly Martin (09:00):
that you can lead and keep people safe every day.
The anticipation of an eventkeeps me very humble, and I'll
be the first to admit that Idon't know everything, and
neither do any of us inemergency management, and so,
(09:21):
through the years, the bestadvice that I've been given is
truly to find, you know, goodmentors, you know people that
are my scene in.
You know both rank andexperience, and knowing that
(09:42):
those individuals have also beenthrough some, you know pretty,
pretty crappy days and andknowing that there's people
there, that you're not alone, Ithink is probably one of the big
, biggest takeaways for me.
But sometimes you do findyourself alone and you're going
to have to.
You can't just freeze.
You know there's.
(10:03):
There's so many people that arelistening to you on the radio.
They're looking for advice,they're looking for direction.
The worst thing you can do isjust not make a decision or just
, you know, freeze in the in themiddle of a, of a crisis.
You know you've got to be ableto say, yeah, there's going to
be some, some horrible dayspotentially ahead in my career.
(10:26):
Am I ready for that?
And and what am I doing toprepare and train for that?
That's probably the biggestthing that I have taken away in
my career.
You just can't again.
Humbleness versus hubris is isthe way to really think about
(10:47):
how you prepare yourself, youknow, mentally, physically,
emotionally for crisismanagement.
Tom Mueller (10:56):
I want to take you back in time a little bit
because you've mentioned to mebefore your experience dealing
with a fire situation and sortof the hubris versus humility
issue comes to mind from that,and that was the Sadler fire
back in early 2000s.
I think you know.
(11:17):
I know you have a story or twoaround that.
What was your experience thereand kind of lessons taken away
from that?
Kelly Martin (11:24):
Yeah, during that incident I think there was four
fires that eventuallytransitioned into a type one
incident called the Sadlerincident, but I was on one of
the smaller fires that we weretrying to contain.
I had quite a bit of resourcesassigned to me and one of my
(11:50):
objectives for the day was tocut dozer line, flank it around
the active fire edge andcontinue to flank it to the
north and then to use hand crewsor people on the ground and
engines to actually burn out theunburned fuel between the dozer
(12:10):
line and the main fire frontthat was going to threaten the
dozer line.
Tom Mueller (12:18):
And for people not familiar with some of the
terminology here is you'rebasically just trying to light a
backfire, basically to burn outsome underbrush so that the big
fire stops in its tracks.
Kelly Martin (12:32):
Yeah, so when you're working in especially a
large, you know, grass or brushum fire and we were in Nevada,
uh, at the, that's where theSadler fire um took place the
idea being is that you know adozer is only eight foot wide
and if the, if the main fire youknow hits that dozer line and
(12:53):
you have all this unburned fuelbetween the main fire and the
dozer line, there's a goodchance that that fire is going
to slap over and burn across thedozer line.
So the the idea is is that youstarve the main fire.
Your control line is the dozerline, and so hand crews and
engines can support that burnoutoperation to reduce the density
(13:17):
and consistency of fuel.
Now that it's black between thedozer line and the main fire,
you don't have to go all the wayto the main fire edge, you just
need to get it deep enough sowhen the main fire does hit your
burnout operation, that it'snot going to threaten your
containment lines.
Tom Mueller (13:34):
Okay, go ahead and continue with the story now.
So you're out there working it.
And things got complicated here, didn't they?
Kelly Martin (13:43):
Whenever you're working a wildland fire and we
affectionately call it thewitching hour by about 1231
o'clock the winds start pickingup very dangerous time, you know
.
If you're not in a safe placeand if there's lack of
(14:09):
communication, it can be very,it can be a very, very dangerous
situation.
Unbeknownst to me, the one ofthe resources that were to
report to me in the morning gotdelayed and I'm out on the fire
line, you know, working withother resources and the dozer,
and all of a sudden I get a callfrom the crew boss trainee for
(14:35):
this hand crew that was assignedto my division that morning and
they said you know, we're stuckon this road and we can't stuck
on this road and we can'tcommunicate with our crew boss
and we have fire coming towardsus.
And when you hear that, yourheart just skips lots of beats
(15:00):
because now all of a sudden it'slike something terrible is
about to happen and you're inthis middle of somebody's
looking for direction andinstruction to basically save
them and and their crew and theonly thing I could think of is
like, if you can't get a hold,let's hope your crew boss is
okay, but you need to get thebus and the people out of there.
(15:23):
You cannot withstand a flamingfront hitting that bus.
And so the crew boss did saythat there was an escape route
and a road that went off to theeast, I believe, and I said,
please just move, get everybodyon the bus and get out of there
and let the fire pass, and we'lldeal with that'll.
(15:45):
We'll, we'll deal with thatlater on in the day.
I was so thankful that they didsuccessfully make it out of
there, but there was a lot ofanxiety.
I mean I think there was.
There was also an engine thatwas behind the, this particular
crew as well, and they followedthem out the road as well.
(16:06):
I had no visual of what if thatroad was going to hold a fire
front, but they got up and overand on the back side of a ridge
and and were protected.
At that point everybody knewthat there was a missing person
and and the air attack and thehelicopter and everybody was
(16:27):
trying to call the, the crewboss, you know, on command on
air to ground, on tacticalfrequencies, with with no, with
no contact at all.
So again, you know, the wholefire just goes quiet when, when
a person goes missing or they'reout of communication, because
(16:47):
people really do think you knowthe worst, especially when
there's no contact on any.
You know frequency, as ithappened, I think there was one
of the helicopters actuallyspotted this person in the black
, which is the burned out area,and I believe that they didn't
(17:09):
land, that.
The person actually got in thebucket in the helicopter,
actually flew this person tosafety.
So after all that, knowing thatthe crew boss was accounted for
, he was flown to safety, thebus and the engine people were
in a safe spot.
(17:30):
It's very, very, very difficultto re-engage in operations when
this just happened to you andyou've had to make split second
decisions to save people's lives.
So there wasn't a whole lotmore that we could do that
afternoon and I told the crewthat I'd meet him in a camp.
(17:54):
You know, that night we hadpretty much, you know, finished
our dozer operation or our lineconstruction operation.
So it really at that pointthere was not the sense of
urgency that we had like two orthree hours earlier, as the
winds and the fire behavior wasstarting to pick up.
Tom Mueller (18:13):
Yeah, so what are the key sort of takeaways from
that then?
I mean, was there decisionmaking on the ground that you
know that could have beendifferent to prevent that?
Or how do you assess you knowthat could have been different
to prevent that, or how do youassess you know the key lessons
from that?
Kelly Martin (18:31):
No, I always look at myself first and when I have
a new crew or a crew, you knowwe call them regulars or you
know type two crews they're nothotshot crews that are assigned
to us and you're unfamiliar withtheir.
You know type two crews.
They're not hotshot crews thatare assigned to us and you're
unfamiliar with their experience, qualifications and expertise.
(18:52):
The thing that I took away onthat particular incident was
trust but verify, and I gotsucked up into believing the
crew boss that the crew was veryexperienced, you know burning,
and that they should be giventhis opportunity to work with me
to do this burnout operation,operation.
(19:20):
And um, I'm like, yeah, let'sthat, that's what we will do.
Um, tomorrow morning is we'llhave you work, you know, behind
the dozer to to do that burnout.
So that was the the piece forme.
Was you really in in thisfast-moving fire world?
You just sometimes you justnever know what you're going to
get and it's really importantthat you judge yourself how
those resources, how qualifiedare those resources to do the
(19:44):
assignment that you want them todo?
That's where we can getourselves in a lot of trouble.
Number one is that maybe a crewis over inflating their, their
qualifications and experienceand you wouldn't know that until
they came to work with you andyou could hear them on the radio
and you could watch theirproduction and you could watch
their inner crew dynamics.
(20:05):
And then you go okay, yeah, Ihave a high degree of confidence
in these crews to assign themto more hotline, if you will.
So I think that was the one ofthe the biggest takeaways.
But I also wanted to kind ofresolve what I thought was a
(20:28):
near miss.
The next morning, that evening,when the crew came in, there was
there was quite a bit of verbalexchange between myself and the
crew boss, in that he felt likeI didn't trust him and he knew
where he was and I directed thecrew boss trainee to do
something that he didn't want todo.
(20:48):
Anyway, it was just a verytense situation.
I said all right, let's startagain in the morning, get your
crew some rest.
All right, let's start again inthe morning, get your crew some
rest.
Unbeknownst to me, thatparticular crew took off and I
never saw them, you know, thenext morning, and I really
wanted the incoming team to kindof know you know what happened,
(21:08):
cause this isn't, this wasn't.
This didn't shut down ouroperation, but it was a, it was
a close call and I needed tomake sure that people knew about
this.
So I feel like I didn't makethat very clear to the incoming
team.
But I also felt like theincoming team, you know, wasn't
receptive to my providing themwith that information.
(21:30):
As it was, the crew went toanother part of the fire and
they narrowly escaped anotherburn over and and, um, you know
where people actually did deployshelters um this time.
So it was like how could thishappen again?
You know it, it was a closecall on my part of the fire and
now they had a shelterdeployment on another part of
(21:54):
the fire.
Tom Mueller (21:54):
So I just when we talk about a shelter deployment
now, we're talking about worstcase scenario here, right?
Kelly Martin (22:01):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yep.
Tom Mueller (22:04):
Give us, paint us a quick picture of what would
that look like if you're on afire team on the ground and the
boss says you know what's thecommand there.
Kelly Martin (22:16):
It may not necessarily even come from the
crew boss, which is like thefirst line supervisor of 20
people.
It could come from the squadboss and people are feeling like
they have no escape route,which is either run down the
road, you know one way or theother, or they see this big
flaming front coming towardsthem and they have.
(22:38):
They can't run through the fire, and so they pick a spot that
is hopefully a void of fuel, ofvegetation, and then they pull
out.
Everybody is required to carrya fire shelter, so they pull out
their fire shelter and get intothis fire shelter and let the
(23:00):
fire, you know, run through themnot through them, but you know,
around and that fire shelter issupposed to deflect the heat.
It's the worst case scenario.
You never.
I mean we, we encourage peopleto use fire shelters if they, if
they have no other choice.
But you know, more and morepeople are really recognizing
(23:21):
that they they have to be awarethat they could potentially get
into a burn over situation atthe worst possible time during
the day and they may have tomake different decisions.
And so when that happened thevery next day, I knew something
was terribly wrong, you know,with the communication and the
(23:42):
ability of this crew to takethis kind of or challenges or
too much risk-taking.
Tom Mueller (24:02):
I want to share a story with you of just from my
time working in the energyindustry.
I worked for a big refinerypetroleum refinery that I
mentioned at the top and ofcourse we have trained
firefighters inside thosefacilities who are trained to
respond to hydrocarbon fires,because you've got lots of
(24:23):
flammable materials goingthrough pipes and heat
exchangers and pumps and valvesat high temperatures, and so the
potential for fire is everpresent.
And there was a couple ofincidents that I recall where
one of the firefightingsupervisors got his crew of
folks in too close to harm's wayand took you know what was
(24:48):
later determined to beinappropriate levels of risk
with those people to try, andyou know, get a fire
extinguished to try, and youknow get a fire extinguished and
the I remember you know thefire crews themselves kind of
losing confidence in thatparticular leader and that led
to, you know, somereorganizations and some
(25:09):
personnel changes and jobreassignments because of that
lack of trust and just you knowthe sort of behaviors that he
showed that put people at risk.
So is that maybe what we wereseeing on the site there?
Kelly Martin (25:28):
I do believe that there's a difference again
between the humble and hubris,decision-making and, you know,
an attempt at ego, not beingable to make good decisions
because no one wants to feellike they're a failure.
So I do think that sometimespeople enter into, you know, a
(25:53):
situation where all the signsare there for a potential
catastrophe and they still go inanyways and you're working with
young people that you'resupposed to be training and
helping them understand, and ifthey don't feel confident in
asking questions about whatthey're doing, it can be very
(26:13):
catastrophic.
This particular person I saw onanother fire assignment three
weeks later and I honestly myjaw dropped and he had a
different group of people.
They weren't the same peoplebut it was a different group of
people and I, number one, Icouldn't believe he was back on
(26:35):
the fire line and leading peopleagain.
And number two, he was prettydetermined to take the crew into
a canyon bottom downhill lineconstruction, which we know is a
watch out situation.
What we consider it's not thatyou can't do it, but you have to
be very prepared that the firecould race up out of the canyon
(26:59):
bottom and trap the crew.
There was really no reason forthe crew to go and I didn't even
direct them to do that.
But the crew boss, the guy thatI had the issue with three
weeks earlier, felt that hecould get his crew in there.
And again, it's not a hotshotcrew, it's a, you know, a type
(27:19):
two crew that some of thosepeople are meeting for the first
time, you know, on thisassignment.
And I said I had to give adirect order that that he would
not be going down, you know,into that Canyon and assign him
to another.
You know another part of theincident.
Well, when I got back into campthat night I was making phone
(27:41):
calls to the operations sectionchief, to the incident
commanders from the Sadler fire,to say this person is still out
on the fire line and he isstill directing and leading
firefighters and not making gooddecisions yet again.
So it was an unfortunatesituation that you know that I
(28:04):
had to be the one to step in andbe the bad guy, if you will.
And you know I suffered someblowback for that because the
whole crew was demobbed ordemobilized from the incident.
So when there's a safety issueand collectively, the team not
me, but the team agrees thatyeah, this person needs to be
(28:27):
demobilized and the whole crew,because the crew doesn't have
leadership, and so that's whathappens.
So when something like thathappens and it's not clearly
understood as to why both theleader and the crew were being
sent home, it can really causehard feelings.
But you know you got to thinkabout the bigger picture and
(28:52):
what your objective is.
It's not to smooth over egos,it's to ensure that there's you
know, every day, every firethroughout the day, that
everyone is safe and that gooddecisions are the best decisions
are being made possible.
Tom Mueller (29:10):
I it's just very, very hard because every day
changes but it's so challengingbecause it seems sometimes we go
through incidents like that andthe issues aren't they aren't
resolved for us, right.
We're still wrestling those andtrying to figure out you know,
what could I have done better,how should I have handled that
(29:30):
differently?
And of course all that leads tostress and you know the
post-traumatic stress injurythat can happen to us when we
deal with traumatic incidentslike that.
You know how much do you seethat.
You know post-traumatic stressissues in crews that you work
(29:51):
with.
And then what's your advice andapproach for dealing with that
in the firefighting realm?
Kelly Martin (29:57):
It's real, ptsd is real and I think we are finally
beginning to appreciate andaccept that mental health
challenges for first respondersand wildland firefighters that
may have witnessed the is thedeath of a coworker or an
aircraft accident those never goaway and people process those
(30:24):
things that they can never unseedifferently and it does become
a remnant in your body and inyour soul.
I'm so glad that our cultureand our workplace environment is
really recognizing that mentalhealth is just as important, if
(30:45):
not more important, than, youknow, the physical health and
wellbeing of firefighters.
It's one that it's an area thatwe don't really like talking
about suicide.
We don't like talking aboutmental health and needing help.
It's in this type of, you know,hyper-masculine type of
environment, I think years pastused to be seen as a sign of
(31:09):
weakness and we can't keepcontinuing to do that to our
employees.
And so, you know, having a, youknow, robust mental health
support system, you know, forPTSD and and actually getting
claims approved for mentalhealth issues is is super
(31:32):
important.
I mean, if we're going to, ifwe're going to have a strong and
robust workforce, you know,going forth in the future, we
have to think about thisholistically.
We have to think about themental health, the physical
health, the financial health,the relationships this comes
(31:54):
into play in developing andmaintaining and recruiting a
workforce that can do this workfor 20 or 25 years.
And it's very, very difficultif we can't, you know, recognize
all those different, you know,spokes that come together in
ourselves as the hub of these.
(32:16):
You know situations that all ofthese have to be, you know,
taken care of, and I'll be thefirst to admit that I didn't,
you know, recognize a lot ofthis in my own career, but I'm
now in a position where I cansupport the next generation, or
this generation and the nextgeneration for, you know, this
kind of, you know health andwellness reforms that is so
(32:38):
desperately needed.
Tom Mueller (32:41):
All right, kelly, thanks so much for joining us
today on the podcast.
We appreciate you kind ofsharing your lessons learned and
some of those leadershipchallenges that you know that
any leader in a crisis situationis going to face.
So thank you again for beingwith us.
Kelly Martin (32:59):
It was my pleasure and I sincerely appreciate your
outreach to the individualsthat will hopefully be able to
take something away from this,so thanks again, tom.
Tom Mueller (33:09):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
If you like what you're hearing, then please like and subscribe
to the podcast and tell yourfriends about us as well, and
we'll see you again soon foranother episode of the Leading
in a Crisis podcast.
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