July 9, 2025 • 25 mins
A wall of water 40 feet high. Spotty cell service. A holiday weekend. These factors converged to create one of the deadliest flooding disasters in Texas history this July 4th weekend, claiming over 100 lives along the Guadalupe River, many of them young campers at Christian summer camps with century-old traditions.
We take you inside the communications response, examining how communications flowed during this complex, multi-agency effort in a race to save lives and reunite families.
From press conferences that sometimes seemed choreographed for political visibility to the notable absence of a dedicated Public Information Officer coordinating the response messaging, we analyze what worked and what didn't in this complex emergency communications scenario. The state-level response showed impressive command of facts and empathetic delivery, while local briefings sometimes struggled with cohesion and clarity.
For families who sent their children to summer camps along the river, this disaster represents an unthinkable tragedy. Our hearts go out to those affected, including the emergency responders now facing the psychological impact of recovery operations. We discuss resources for addressing PTSD in crisis responders and point listeners to our previous episodes covering mental health aspects of disaster recovery.
Our guest today is Destin Singleton, principal at Emic Communications in New Braunfels, Texas. Reach out to Destin at www.emiccomms.com
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:08):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and
we'd like to get stories fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller, with me againtoday, my co-host, mark Mullen.
Mark, welcome back.
Marc Mullen (00:25):
Hi Tom.
Tom Mueller (00:27):
And our friend of the podcast and special guest
today, destin Singleton, joiningus from New Braunfels, texas.
Destin, what's going on in yourworld these days, in your
business?
What are you focused on?
Destin Singleton (00:41):
Yeah, hi.
Thanks guys.
So happy to be back on your toprated podcast, so super
exciting.
So I'm the owner of EmicCommunications and I support my
clients through crisis andchallenge, which you know, and
(01:01):
change projects as well.
You know I live in CentralTexas and we have some stuff
happening around here.
Tom Mueller (01:07):
We do.
The topic we're going to covertoday is the communications and
emergency response around theflooding over the 4th of July
holiday weekend here in CentralTexas.
There was a town calledKerrville, Texas, which is about
oh 80 miles west of me where Iam, and probably about a similar
(01:28):
distance, Destin, from whereyou are.
It was a sort of rapidlydeveloping weather system that
dumped a lot of rain and causedsome significant flash flooding
that, as of our recording today,has taken more than 100 lives
with dozens still missing.
So it was just a horrific floodand, of course, lots of issues
(01:54):
around communications aroundthat.
So we're going to spend a fewminutes just talking that
through and get our impressionsof how these communications have
handled and where it might bedone a little better.
Destin, I know you've beenfollowing this fairly closely.
What's your initial response tothe communications and press
(02:17):
briefings that we've been seeingfrom local officials?
Destin Singleton (02:20):
Happy to.
But first I just want to sayhow, yeah, this is a horrible,
horrible event, and while Idon't want to, you know, I want
to be sensitive to the fact thatpeople even in my circle have
lost loved ones.
There are becoming some kind ofglaring issues about how
(02:44):
communication flowed, you know,among kind of from from
different government entities,from federal to local, and so we
(03:06):
could talk about those, butalso from there's been press
conferences, sometimes three aday, sometimes two a day,
throughout this event,especially in Kerrville and
talking about what happened inKerr County, from Hunt to
Kerrville, and so I wanted totalk a little bit about those
press conferences and how thosewent and how they've evolved
over time.
So I'm happy to talk throughthose.
Tom Mueller (03:19):
All right, great Mark, you're kind of watching
this from afar over on the westcoast of the United States.
What impressions have youformed about what you've seen so
far?
Marc Mullen (03:32):
First of all, I always will remember trying out
for the BP Deepwater Horizonincident right after it started
and being struck with howquickly the topic was, the
response and the boats, and itwas as if everybody had
forgotten that people lost theirlives in that event and I
(03:56):
appreciate it was in particularBP that took efforts to stop
everyone from acknowledging thepain of the families.
I think some of that is just thesheer physics of the response
takes over, but what I seeplaying out in public is we're
beginning to have more than onetopic for the press conferences
(04:16):
and we're beginning to betalking as much about weather,
balloons or staffing as we aretalking about families and the
tragic price that they've paidbecause of this.
I suspect a lot of that isinevitable, but I still am a
little bit surprised at wherethe conversation is going.
It's a completely appropriateconversation and it will be
(04:41):
replayed and added to in everyemergency management agency in
the country, but right now it'skind of sticking up and it looks
like the kid is elbowing to thefront of the room to get more
candy.
Tom Mueller (04:54):
Well, yeah, there's definitely that, and you know
we're seeing very quickly thispivot toward who's responsible
for this right.
Why weren't there more warningsresponsible for this right?
Why weren't there more warnings?
Why weren't elected officialsmore engaged or earlier or
issuing more warnings?
And that, of course, issomething we see in every major
incident right, what happened?
(05:16):
Why did this happen?
And in the press conferencesI've watched the spokespersons
typically it's been a sheriff'sdepartment or a state police
spokesperson, you know has saidhey, we'll have time to have
those conversations.
Right now, our effort and thiswhole group who's in front of
(05:38):
you are focused on recovering,rescuing people who are still
out there and, you know,bringing closure to families who
are looking for their lovedones.
That's our focus and to me,that's an entirely appropriate
response at this stage.
You know we're recording onMonday, after 4th of July, which
(05:59):
fell on a Saturday.
The event happened on Saturdaymorning, right?
Destin Singleton (06:04):
Friday morning .
Friday morning.
Tom Mueller (06:06):
Friday morning.
That's right, friday the 4thyeah.
Destin Singleton (06:08):
So day four.
Tom Mueller (06:10):
So you know, at some point the conversation has
to go there and, of course, youhave to be ready for that.
One of the challenges here isthis is a unified command that's
running this.
So you have city people, countypeople that's running this.
So you have city people, countypeople, sheriff's department
(06:30):
who else was in there?
Texas Department of PublicSafety, which is state police
here, so lots of differentpeople who are having the
conversations.
I guess, when you look at it,there's a lot of potential
finger pointing going aroundbetween folks at this point.
You know,D estin, I want to cometo you and get your thoughts on
that and how you see that.
But you know, living here inCentral Texas, I got the same
flood alerts, destin, that youdid about the potential for
(06:54):
flooding over the holidayweekend, and the folks over in
Kerrville and other parts of thestate would have gotten those
as well.
And you know it's incumbent oneach one of us to pay attention
to that.
When we're made aware of thosetypes of situations, we need to
be sky alert and watching forrain and potential issues and
(07:17):
have a plan in place, becauseyou just in my mind, I'm never
thinking well, if something goeswrong, the county or the city
is going to come and tell me andcome and get me Right.
It just doesn't work that wayin most parts of the world, so
we have to be prepared and readyto respond and get out of
harm's way as much as possible.
(07:38):
Destin, what's your take on allthat?
Destin Singleton (07:47):
take on all that.
Yeah, what I'm thinking aboutin particular is you know where
communication flowed betweenNational Weather Service and
then on to state local.
You know, however, that thosecommunication lines flow and
then, and what actions are takenas a result of those
communications that are comingfrom you know, the intended
(08:10):
sender to the intended receiver,and then what happens?
We don't have those answers,and that's part of what you're
seeing in today's pressconference.
Actually, there were reporterspushing for information, because
it's day four.
Right At this point, they'relike well, wait, why didn't
people know?
And so, there, there are thosenatural questions, However.
(08:31):
So anyway, we don't have theinformation to be able to fully
analyze what happened from thissender to this receiver, from
this sender to this receiver.
All of that is subject to thefuture study.
However, the One thing peopledon't realize is, you know, in
an area like Hunt, or evenfarther west of Hunt, at the
beginning of the Guadalupe River, it's about 45 minutes from
(08:56):
Kerrville, it's, you know, it'snot quick.
So if the sheriff was toldsomething in Kerrville, it would
take him 45 minutes to get towhere he needed to be, so that,
is you know, not necessarilyideal.
Plus, these are regions if youlive around here, you know if
you go over a hill you probablywon't have cellular reception,
(09:18):
so your reception does not gothrough limestone.
probably don't have cellularaccess.
So then the question is well,why weren't there sirens?
Why weren't there otherwarnings?
I live in an area where thereare sirens.
You live in Wimberley.
There are sirens.
This area hadn't?
There's lots of stories outthere.
(09:39):
You can go and read about whythat may be the case.
Cost has been number one and,however, I don't want to go back
and look at those things.
I'm more interested in thecommunication aspect.
You know what?
What happened in thatcommunication line?
What was intended and where?
Where did it?
Tom Mueller (09:56):
where did it fall?
You know, from a crisisplanning perspective, you know
we often say the worst thingshappen over a holiday weekend.
And here we are again.
It's a Fourth of July weekendand it's a major flood, a major
(10:19):
incident.
What does that tell you aboutyour crisis planning process and
just being ready?
Marc Mullen (10:30):
Well, you need to be ready for things to happen in
the middle of the night orright in the middle of the
holiday, and just Murphy lives,murphy rules, and that's a part
of this too.
Part of analyzing this wholeresponse was when you peel this
down to a meteorological event.
This is an incredibly fastdeveloping, powerful and deadly
(10:51):
rainfall.
It was you plan againstpossible scenarios and possible
occurrences and I think we keepbroadening those to be absorbed,
that sometimes things may bemore secure.
But we just have to keep doingthat.
And there's a point to alsoknowledge.
It will always be possible fornature to overwhelm us and we
(11:15):
have to not only plan to what wecan't handle, because there's a
limit on what you can handle,but the question at that point
should be and what are we goingto do when it exceeds that?
And stop thinking about how wecan't pave the road with
responders.
So we've got to begin to dealwith the realities of what's
going to happen.
I mean, up here in theNorthwest we deal with
(11:35):
earthquakes.
We don't have earthquakes untilwe do, and we don't have
volcanoes until they erupt, butat that point it's not a 2.4
earthquake and it's not somesteam in the air.
So in some cases you have to beready to manage and really all
you have left in a responsethat's overwhelmed is the
communications part.
So the real question what areyou going to talk about when
(11:59):
everybody wants to know who didit?
And the answer is nobody did it.
Nobody was wrong.
But here we are, and that is apeer communication challenge.
Tom Mueller (12:09):
Yeah, well, we have .
You know, I'm in Wimberley,Texas here, and in 2015, there
was a huge Memorial Day floodthat eerily similar to what
happened in Kerrville, and wehad 12 people died, I think in
that flood and we had 12 peopledied I think in that flood, and
(12:31):
it was again middle of the nightkind of thing Water, rain,
significant rains, upriver and a40-foot wall of water came
through and just washed awayhomes and it was just horrific.
But coming out of that, thiscommunity now has a new
community radio station that isthe go-to source for information
(12:52):
on weather events or civildefense emergencies, whatever it
might be.
So we have that system in placenow and they've also put in
place a community alert systemwhere, similar to the National
Weather Service, sends out analert about a potential flood
warning.
Well, the local community doesthat as well.
(13:12):
Now, and Destin, as we go backand look at the communications
around Kerrville, it sounds likethey're going to be having some
of those similar conversations.
So what went on here inWimberley not too long ago?
Destin Singleton (13:29):
Yes, I agree.
Tom Mueller (13:30):
Hey, tell me about you know you've spent a little
bit of time now looking at thosepress conferences and seeing
we've had an interesting mix offederal elected officials, state
officials, county officials,local officials all in there.
That's a lot of bodies to getin front of a microphone.
(13:52):
What's your sense of how wellthat has been choreographed and
is it serving the publicinterest?
Destin Singleton (14:01):
Yes.
So, first of all, from a keymessage standpoint, I think
they've done a fantastic job oftalking about unity and
coordination and, you know,actions that they're taking,
their ongoing efforts, keepingthe public informed about the
(14:21):
latest as far as who has beenrecovered, that sort of thing.
I mean it just just a wonderful.
Their messages have been great.
Yes, some training could occurto improve how those messages
are being shared, but overalljust a really good job with
those messages.
However, it's been interestingto kind of watch.
There has been multiple levelsof press conferences.
(14:46):
So and remember too that this islike 100 kilometers long
response so it's not justKerrville, it's not just Kerr
County there's incident.
This incident has affectedmultiple counties along multiple
rivers, so this is more of alinear response, and so,
therefore, there's been pressconferences that have happened
(15:07):
from a statewide level as wellas those at the local level, and
then you've had federal folksmaking statements and or joining
these other press conferences.
My first comment is I haven'tnoticed a public information
officer there to kind of helpshepherd these meetings, and it
seems to me that they've kind ofassigned that role to different
(15:30):
people throughout, and sothere's really no one to kind of
step in if things need to bedisrupted or if it needs to be
redirected to a different person.
That role of the PIO, to me, issuper, super important and when
you see it done really well,then you see the benefit and I
(15:51):
just I see that as missing,Unless you guys have.
Hey, let us know.
If you've seen it and I justhave missed it, please let me
know.
Tom Mueller (15:58):
Well, again, when you've got all these different
state, local agencies comingtogether.
Each one of them, you know, hastheir own spokesperson in the
room and I think one of thechallenges you run into is, you
know, people giving up controlto one person to sort of run
things.
But if it's a true unifiedcommand setup, then you should
(16:21):
have a PIO designated from oneof the agencies and they speak
and represent all of theagencies.
So we'll be watching and see,you know, if there's any more
clarity around that, but thatcertainly would have helped
things be a little more cohesive.
Destin Singleton (16:38):
Yes, and someone to act as the emcee.
You know, sometimes they seem,you know, to be a little bit
confused about who's up next, sothat's just helpful.
Tom Mueller (16:47):
Yeah, you know I've watched several of the state
press conferences on this,Governor Abbott hosting those.
I've been very impressed withthe amount of information the
governor has at his fingertipsand as I watch him delivering
these press conferences, he'sjust very good in these types of
(17:08):
emergency situations.
He's very empathetic and yethe's just spot on with sharing
information and that.
So I think that speaks to theorganization behind him who's
gathering that information,getting him prepped and ready
for this, Probably himself aswell, asking questions of his
(17:29):
team to get the rightinformation.
So I've been pretty impressedat the state level with the
press conferences.
Any thoughts on what you'veseen there?
Destin Singleton (17:38):
Yeah, state level have been great, I agree,
but in addition to that, therehave been state level people
joining the press conferences inKerrville.
So there's been multiple levels, as I mentioned.
So you've got the state hosting, um, uh, meetings, you've got
the local hosting meetings, um,and then um, and then what I've
(17:59):
also noticed, um, which has beeninteresting, is a series of
special guests, special guestsat press conferences.
Okay, so just yesterday, lateyesterday, local Senator Ted
Cruz came and spoke and he stoodright behind whoever was
speaking, right in camera level.
Tom Mueller (18:23):
I wonder if that was an accident.
Destin Singleton (18:26):
I don't know, it seemed choreographed from his
perspective.
He was visible behind everyperson who spoke at the podium
Right.
So, strategically oraccidentally, there was one of
(18:51):
the governor's press conferencesearly on, I might.
I want to say it was on Sunday.
There was no update providedand it felt a little strange
from an authenticity perspectivedid not hit for me.
There was no update provided.
There was nothing about likewho you know, how many people
have been affected, that sort ofthing or what are we doing
(19:13):
right now.
It was only the White House isvery supportive.
They're going to give useverything we asked for.
The president loves Texas, youknow.
And then Kristi Noem got on andtalked about that and there were
times too where you could seelike the local people kind of
looking at her funny based onwhat she said.
So it just felt, especially atthe time, that it was very
(19:37):
self-serving and I don't I havenot talked to people on the
ground, but to me, even as alocal stakeholder, felt that
that was at the wrong time.
In addition, I have seen liketoday there was a game warden
that came on and spoke for alittle while just giving updates
on what the game wardens andwhat they are doing so.
(20:00):
It seems like a series ofspecial guests.
I don't dislike it, but I alsoI'm not sure like what, the what
, the what the objectives were.
Tom Mueller (20:10):
Well, yeah, and it could be one of those that, as
you know they have less newinformation to share.
There's an opportunity to pullin others to talk about some of
the peripheral issues that arehappening.
You know what's happening withlivestock or animals that have
been recovered and you know, arethey corralling them somewhere
(20:32):
to be claimed later or whateverthat might be?
Well, it's still an ongoing anddeveloping response to this.
Again, just a tragic, tragicincident that happened here in
Texas over the July 4th holidayweekend.
Several dozen of the people whowere killed were young girls,
(20:54):
campers at local Christiansummer camps along the river
there, iconic summer camplocations and camps with, you
know, a hundred year traditionof people coming and enjoying
that.
And all of that just shatteredin, you know, in one night with
(21:16):
the huge rainfall that camethrough there.
So it is tragic and we alwayshave to keep that in mind, even
as we sort of look to critiquethe communications response and
everything that's happenedbeyond that.
So our hearts certainly go outto all the families.
Can you imagine you send yourson or your daughter off to
(21:37):
summer camp and they just don'tcome back?
It's, you know, it's justhorrific.
Destin Singleton (21:43):
It's unthinkable, but unfortunately.
Unfortunately.
I've thought a lot about it.
My kids are heading to camp onSunday.
Tom Mueller (21:50):
Wow, and are you familiar with the emergency
response plan for the camp?
Destin Singleton (21:55):
I am now, and I commend our camp.
Yes, I'm very familiar and, infact, one of my daughters is a
counselor, so I have actuallyread up on all of their um, um,
emergency response plans.
But, um, my daughters will begoing to Wimberley um next
weekend um to, uh, they're both,you know, early counselors.
(22:15):
So, but I, I have been thinkingabout this a lot, and when one
mother experiences something, weall experience it.
I guarantee you, and I havebroken into sobs a bit over the
last few days, but this I also.
As I said, they have done afantastic job.
(22:37):
These are hugely difficultcircumstances, these flash
floods.
I think if you're not from here, you don't understand.
They happen and then they goaway very, very quickly and so,
as opposed to you know, livingthrough a hurricane and a
hurricane, you know prone areawhere water sticks around, it's
not like that.
Tom Mueller (22:57):
Right, but you have a week long buildup of the
storm coming in and preparationtime and all of that, and with
something like this, it just youdon't have it.
It's such a compressed thing.
Yeah, as you were saying.
Destin Singleton (23:10):
And it's absolutely horrible horrific
conditions too for the recovery,rescue and recovery groups.
I commend everything they'vebeen doing and the amount of
outpouring of support fromeveryone in Texas and beyond
around the world has beenamazing and we all are super
(23:31):
appreciative.
Tom Mueller (23:31):
We know there's a lot of stress associated with
emergency responders going outdoing search and rescue.
You know they've located dozensof deceased people out along
that river now and of course,just that work takes a toll on
the responders, as you'vementioned, destin.
So I'll just point out that, ifyou scan back on our previous
(23:53):
episodes here on the podcast, wehave talked to several people
about PTSD as it relates toemergency responders and
families that are going throughsituations like this.
So please take a moment, lookback and, if this is something
you're concerned about, we'vegot some really interesting
(24:14):
episodes that deal with thestress, the post-traumatic
stress issues after an eventlike this.
Destin, thanks so much fortaking a few minutes to join us
for this.
Always appreciate hearing yourperspective on communications
issues here.
We're certainly close to homein Central Texas with this one
(24:35):
today, so thanks very much againfor being with us.
Destin Singleton (24:39):
Thank you.
Tom Mueller (24:40):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thank you so much for taking afew minutes to be with us today.
If you'd like to reach out,please drop me an email at tom,
at leadinginacrisiscom, andwe'll see you on the next
episode.
Take care.
Marc Mullen (25:01):
Thank you.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and
we'd like to get stories fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller, with me againtoday, my co-host, mark Mullen.
Mark, welcome back.
Marc Mullen (00:25):
Hi Tom.
Tom Mueller (00:27):
And our friend of the podcast and special guest
today, destin Singleton, joiningus from New Braunfels, texas.
Destin, what's going on in yourworld these days, in your
business?
What are you focused on?
Destin Singleton (00:41):
Yeah, hi.
Thanks guys.
So happy to be back on your toprated podcast, so super
exciting.
So I'm the owner of EmicCommunications and I support my
clients through crisis andchallenge, which you know, and
(01:01):
change projects as well.
You know I live in CentralTexas and we have some stuff
happening around here.
Tom Mueller (01:07):
We do.
The topic we're going to covertoday is the communications and
emergency response around theflooding over the 4th of July
holiday weekend here in CentralTexas.
There was a town calledKerrville, Texas, which is about
oh 80 miles west of me where Iam, and probably about a similar
(01:28):
distance, Destin, from whereyou are.
It was a sort of rapidlydeveloping weather system that
dumped a lot of rain and causedsome significant flash flooding
that, as of our recording today,has taken more than 100 lives
with dozens still missing.
So it was just a horrific floodand, of course, lots of issues
(01:54):
around communications aroundthat.
So we're going to spend a fewminutes just talking that
through and get our impressionsof how these communications have
handled and where it might bedone a little better.
Destin, I know you've beenfollowing this fairly closely.
What's your initial response tothe communications and press
(02:17):
briefings that we've been seeingfrom local officials?
Destin Singleton (02:20):
Happy to.
But first I just want to sayhow, yeah, this is a horrible,
horrible event, and while Idon't want to, you know, I want
to be sensitive to the fact thatpeople even in my circle have
lost loved ones.
There are becoming some kind ofglaring issues about how
(02:44):
communication flowed, you know,among kind of from from
different government entities,from federal to local, and so we
(03:06):
could talk about those, butalso from there's been press
conferences, sometimes three aday, sometimes two a day,
throughout this event,especially in Kerrville and
talking about what happened inKerr County, from Hunt to
Kerrville, and so I wanted totalk a little bit about those
press conferences and how thosewent and how they've evolved
over time.
So I'm happy to talk throughthose.
Tom Mueller (03:19):
All right, great Mark, you're kind of watching
this from afar over on the westcoast of the United States.
What impressions have youformed about what you've seen so
far?
Marc Mullen (03:32):
First of all, I always will remember trying out
for the BP Deepwater Horizonincident right after it started
and being struck with howquickly the topic was, the
response and the boats, and itwas as if everybody had
forgotten that people lost theirlives in that event and I
(03:56):
appreciate it was in particularBP that took efforts to stop
everyone from acknowledging thepain of the families.
I think some of that is just thesheer physics of the response
takes over, but what I seeplaying out in public is we're
beginning to have more than onetopic for the press conferences
(04:16):
and we're beginning to betalking as much about weather,
balloons or staffing as we aretalking about families and the
tragic price that they've paidbecause of this.
I suspect a lot of that isinevitable, but I still am a
little bit surprised at wherethe conversation is going.
It's a completely appropriateconversation and it will be
(04:41):
replayed and added to in everyemergency management agency in
the country, but right now it'skind of sticking up and it looks
like the kid is elbowing to thefront of the room to get more
candy.
Tom Mueller (04:54):
Well, yeah, there's definitely that, and you know
we're seeing very quickly thispivot toward who's responsible
for this right.
Why weren't there more warningsresponsible for this right?
Why weren't there more warnings?
Why weren't elected officialsmore engaged or earlier or
issuing more warnings?
And that, of course, issomething we see in every major
incident right, what happened?
(05:16):
Why did this happen?
And in the press conferencesI've watched the spokespersons
typically it's been a sheriff'sdepartment or a state police
spokesperson, you know has saidhey, we'll have time to have
those conversations.
Right now, our effort and thiswhole group who's in front of
(05:38):
you are focused on recovering,rescuing people who are still
out there and, you know,bringing closure to families who
are looking for their lovedones.
That's our focus and to me,that's an entirely appropriate
response at this stage.
You know we're recording onMonday, after 4th of July, which
(05:59):
fell on a Saturday.
The event happened on Saturdaymorning, right?
Destin Singleton (06:04):
Friday morning .
Friday morning.
Tom Mueller (06:06):
Friday morning.
That's right, friday the 4thyeah.
Destin Singleton (06:08):
So day four.
Tom Mueller (06:10):
So you know, at some point the conversation has
to go there and, of course, youhave to be ready for that.
One of the challenges here isthis is a unified command that's
running this.
So you have city people, countypeople that's running this.
So you have city people, countypeople, sheriff's department
(06:30):
who else was in there?
Texas Department of PublicSafety, which is state police
here, so lots of differentpeople who are having the
conversations.
I guess, when you look at it,there's a lot of potential
finger pointing going aroundbetween folks at this point.
You know,D estin, I want to cometo you and get your thoughts on
that and how you see that.
But you know, living here inCentral Texas, I got the same
flood alerts, destin, that youdid about the potential for
(06:54):
flooding over the holidayweekend, and the folks over in
Kerrville and other parts of thestate would have gotten those
as well.
And you know it's incumbent oneach one of us to pay attention
to that.
When we're made aware of thosetypes of situations, we need to
be sky alert and watching forrain and potential issues and
(07:17):
have a plan in place, becauseyou just in my mind, I'm never
thinking well, if something goeswrong, the county or the city
is going to come and tell me andcome and get me Right.
It just doesn't work that wayin most parts of the world, so
we have to be prepared and readyto respond and get out of
harm's way as much as possible.
(07:38):
Destin, what's your take on allthat?
Destin Singleton (07:47):
take on all that.
Yeah, what I'm thinking aboutin particular is you know where
communication flowed betweenNational Weather Service and
then on to state local.
You know, however, that thosecommunication lines flow and
then, and what actions are takenas a result of those
communications that are comingfrom you know, the intended
(08:10):
sender to the intended receiver,and then what happens?
We don't have those answers,and that's part of what you're
seeing in today's pressconference.
Actually, there were reporterspushing for information, because
it's day four.
Right At this point, they'relike well, wait, why didn't
people know?
And so, there, there are thosenatural questions, However.
(08:31):
So anyway, we don't have theinformation to be able to fully
analyze what happened from thissender to this receiver, from
this sender to this receiver.
All of that is subject to thefuture study.
However, the One thing peopledon't realize is, you know, in
an area like Hunt, or evenfarther west of Hunt, at the
beginning of the Guadalupe River, it's about 45 minutes from
(08:56):
Kerrville, it's, you know, it'snot quick.
So if the sheriff was toldsomething in Kerrville, it would
take him 45 minutes to get towhere he needed to be, so that,
is you know, not necessarilyideal.
Plus, these are regions if youlive around here, you know if
you go over a hill you probablywon't have cellular reception,
(09:18):
so your reception does not gothrough limestone.
probably don't have cellularaccess.
So then the question is well,why weren't there sirens?
Why weren't there otherwarnings?
I live in an area where thereare sirens.
You live in Wimberley.
There are sirens.
This area hadn't?
There's lots of stories outthere.
(09:39):
You can go and read about whythat may be the case.
Cost has been number one and,however, I don't want to go back
and look at those things.
I'm more interested in thecommunication aspect.
You know what?
What happened in thatcommunication line?
What was intended and where?
Where did it?
Tom Mueller (09:56):
where did it fall?
You know, from a crisisplanning perspective, you know
we often say the worst thingshappen over a holiday weekend.
And here we are again.
It's a Fourth of July weekendand it's a major flood, a major
(10:19):
incident.
What does that tell you aboutyour crisis planning process and
just being ready?
Marc Mullen (10:30):
Well, you need to be ready for things to happen in
the middle of the night orright in the middle of the
holiday, and just Murphy lives,murphy rules, and that's a part
of this too.
Part of analyzing this wholeresponse was when you peel this
down to a meteorological event.
This is an incredibly fastdeveloping, powerful and deadly
(10:51):
rainfall.
It was you plan againstpossible scenarios and possible
occurrences and I think we keepbroadening those to be absorbed,
that sometimes things may bemore secure.
But we just have to keep doingthat.
And there's a point to alsoknowledge.
It will always be possible fornature to overwhelm us and we
(11:15):
have to not only plan to what wecan't handle, because there's a
limit on what you can handle,but the question at that point
should be and what are we goingto do when it exceeds that?
And stop thinking about how wecan't pave the road with
responders.
So we've got to begin to dealwith the realities of what's
going to happen.
I mean, up here in theNorthwest we deal with
(11:35):
earthquakes.
We don't have earthquakes untilwe do, and we don't have
volcanoes until they erupt, butat that point it's not a 2.4
earthquake and it's not somesteam in the air.
So in some cases you have to beready to manage and really all
you have left in a responsethat's overwhelmed is the
communications part.
So the real question what areyou going to talk about when
(11:59):
everybody wants to know who didit?
And the answer is nobody did it.
Nobody was wrong.
But here we are, and that is apeer communication challenge.
Tom Mueller (12:09):
Yeah, well, we have .
You know, I'm in Wimberley,Texas here, and in 2015, there
was a huge Memorial Day floodthat eerily similar to what
happened in Kerrville, and wehad 12 people died, I think in
that flood and we had 12 peopledied I think in that flood, and
(12:31):
it was again middle of the nightkind of thing Water, rain,
significant rains, upriver and a40-foot wall of water came
through and just washed awayhomes and it was just horrific.
But coming out of that, thiscommunity now has a new
community radio station that isthe go-to source for information
(12:52):
on weather events or civildefense emergencies, whatever it
might be.
So we have that system in placenow and they've also put in
place a community alert systemwhere, similar to the National
Weather Service, sends out analert about a potential flood
warning.
Well, the local community doesthat as well.
(13:12):
Now, and Destin, as we go backand look at the communications
around Kerrville, it sounds likethey're going to be having some
of those similar conversations.
So what went on here inWimberley not too long ago?
Destin Singleton (13:29):
Yes, I agree.
Tom Mueller (13:30):
Hey, tell me about you know you've spent a little
bit of time now looking at thosepress conferences and seeing
we've had an interesting mix offederal elected officials, state
officials, county officials,local officials all in there.
That's a lot of bodies to getin front of a microphone.
(13:52):
What's your sense of how wellthat has been choreographed and
is it serving the publicinterest?
Destin Singleton (14:01):
Yes.
So, first of all, from a keymessage standpoint, I think
they've done a fantastic job oftalking about unity and
coordination and, you know,actions that they're taking,
their ongoing efforts, keepingthe public informed about the
(14:21):
latest as far as who has beenrecovered, that sort of thing.
I mean it just just a wonderful.
Their messages have been great.
Yes, some training could occurto improve how those messages
are being shared, but overalljust a really good job with
those messages.
However, it's been interestingto kind of watch.
There has been multiple levelsof press conferences.
(14:46):
So and remember too that this islike 100 kilometers long
response so it's not justKerrville, it's not just Kerr
County there's incident.
This incident has affectedmultiple counties along multiple
rivers, so this is more of alinear response, and so,
therefore, there's been pressconferences that have happened
(15:07):
from a statewide level as wellas those at the local level, and
then you've had federal folksmaking statements and or joining
these other press conferences.
My first comment is I haven'tnoticed a public information
officer there to kind of helpshepherd these meetings, and it
seems to me that they've kind ofassigned that role to different
(15:30):
people throughout, and sothere's really no one to kind of
step in if things need to bedisrupted or if it needs to be
redirected to a different person.
That role of the PIO, to me, issuper, super important and when
you see it done really well,then you see the benefit and I
(15:51):
just I see that as missing,Unless you guys have.
Hey, let us know.
If you've seen it and I justhave missed it, please let me
know.
Tom Mueller (15:58):
Well, again, when you've got all these different
state, local agencies comingtogether.
Each one of them, you know, hastheir own spokesperson in the
room and I think one of thechallenges you run into is, you
know, people giving up controlto one person to sort of run
things.
But if it's a true unifiedcommand setup, then you should
(16:21):
have a PIO designated from oneof the agencies and they speak
and represent all of theagencies.
So we'll be watching and see,you know, if there's any more
clarity around that, but thatcertainly would have helped
things be a little more cohesive.
Destin Singleton (16:38):
Yes, and someone to act as the emcee.
You know, sometimes they seem,you know, to be a little bit
confused about who's up next, sothat's just helpful.
Tom Mueller (16:47):
Yeah, you know I've watched several of the state
press conferences on this,Governor Abbott hosting those.
I've been very impressed withthe amount of information the
governor has at his fingertipsand as I watch him delivering
these press conferences, he'sjust very good in these types of
(17:08):
emergency situations.
He's very empathetic and yethe's just spot on with sharing
information and that.
So I think that speaks to theorganization behind him who's
gathering that information,getting him prepped and ready
for this, Probably himself aswell, asking questions of his
(17:29):
team to get the rightinformation.
So I've been pretty impressedat the state level with the
press conferences.
Any thoughts on what you'veseen there?
Destin Singleton (17:38):
Yeah, state level have been great, I agree,
but in addition to that, therehave been state level people
joining the press conferences inKerrville.
So there's been multiple levels, as I mentioned.
So you've got the state hosting, um, uh, meetings, you've got
the local hosting meetings, um,and then um, and then what I've
(17:59):
also noticed, um, which has beeninteresting, is a series of
special guests, special guestsat press conferences.
Okay, so just yesterday, lateyesterday, local Senator Ted
Cruz came and spoke and he stoodright behind whoever was
speaking, right in camera level.
Tom Mueller (18:23):
I wonder if that was an accident.
Destin Singleton (18:26):
I don't know, it seemed choreographed from his
perspective.
He was visible behind everyperson who spoke at the podium
Right.
So, strategically oraccidentally, there was one of
(18:51):
the governor's press conferencesearly on, I might.
I want to say it was on Sunday.
There was no update providedand it felt a little strange
from an authenticity perspectivedid not hit for me.
There was no update provided.
There was nothing about likewho you know, how many people
have been affected, that sort ofthing or what are we doing
(19:13):
right now.
It was only the White House isvery supportive.
They're going to give useverything we asked for.
The president loves Texas, youknow.
And then Kristi Noem got on andtalked about that and there were
times too where you could seelike the local people kind of
looking at her funny based onwhat she said.
So it just felt, especially atthe time, that it was very
(19:37):
self-serving and I don't I havenot talked to people on the
ground, but to me, even as alocal stakeholder, felt that
that was at the wrong time.
In addition, I have seen liketoday there was a game warden
that came on and spoke for alittle while just giving updates
on what the game wardens andwhat they are doing so.
(20:00):
It seems like a series ofspecial guests.
I don't dislike it, but I alsoI'm not sure like what, the what
, the what the objectives were.
Tom Mueller (20:10):
Well, yeah, and it could be one of those that, as
you know they have less newinformation to share.
There's an opportunity to pullin others to talk about some of
the peripheral issues that arehappening.
You know what's happening withlivestock or animals that have
been recovered and you know, arethey corralling them somewhere
(20:32):
to be claimed later or whateverthat might be?
Well, it's still an ongoing anddeveloping response to this.
Again, just a tragic, tragicincident that happened here in
Texas over the July 4th holidayweekend.
Several dozen of the people whowere killed were young girls,
(20:54):
campers at local Christiansummer camps along the river
there, iconic summer camplocations and camps with, you
know, a hundred year traditionof people coming and enjoying
that.
And all of that just shatteredin, you know, in one night with
(21:16):
the huge rainfall that camethrough there.
So it is tragic and we alwayshave to keep that in mind, even
as we sort of look to critiquethe communications response and
everything that's happenedbeyond that.
So our hearts certainly go outto all the families.
Can you imagine you send yourson or your daughter off to
(21:37):
summer camp and they just don'tcome back?
It's, you know, it's justhorrific.
Destin Singleton (21:43):
It's unthinkable, but unfortunately.
Unfortunately.
I've thought a lot about it.
My kids are heading to camp onSunday.
Tom Mueller (21:50):
Wow, and are you familiar with the emergency
response plan for the camp?
Destin Singleton (21:55):
I am now, and I commend our camp.
Yes, I'm very familiar and, infact, one of my daughters is a
counselor, so I have actuallyread up on all of their um, um,
emergency response plans.
But, um, my daughters will begoing to Wimberley um next
weekend um to, uh, they're both,you know, early counselors.
(22:15):
So, but I, I have been thinkingabout this a lot, and when one
mother experiences something, weall experience it.
I guarantee you, and I havebroken into sobs a bit over the
last few days, but this I also.
As I said, they have done afantastic job.
(22:37):
These are hugely difficultcircumstances, these flash
floods.
I think if you're not from here, you don't understand.
They happen and then they goaway very, very quickly and so,
as opposed to you know, livingthrough a hurricane and a
hurricane, you know prone areawhere water sticks around, it's
not like that.
Tom Mueller (22:57):
Right, but you have a week long buildup of the
storm coming in and preparationtime and all of that, and with
something like this, it just youdon't have it.
It's such a compressed thing.
Yeah, as you were saying.
Destin Singleton (23:10):
And it's absolutely horrible horrific
conditions too for the recovery,rescue and recovery groups.
I commend everything they'vebeen doing and the amount of
outpouring of support fromeveryone in Texas and beyond
around the world has beenamazing and we all are super
(23:31):
appreciative.
Tom Mueller (23:31):
We know there's a lot of stress associated with
emergency responders going outdoing search and rescue.
You know they've located dozensof deceased people out along
that river now and of course,just that work takes a toll on
the responders, as you'vementioned, destin.
So I'll just point out that, ifyou scan back on our previous
(23:53):
episodes here on the podcast, wehave talked to several people
about PTSD as it relates toemergency responders and
families that are going throughsituations like this.
So please take a moment, lookback and, if this is something
you're concerned about, we'vegot some really interesting
(24:14):
episodes that deal with thestress, the post-traumatic
stress issues after an eventlike this.
Destin, thanks so much fortaking a few minutes to join us
for this.
Always appreciate hearing yourperspective on communications
issues here.
We're certainly close to homein Central Texas with this one
(24:35):
today, so thanks very much againfor being with us.
Destin Singleton (24:39):
Thank you.
Tom Mueller (24:40):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thank you so much for taking afew minutes to be with us today.
If you'd like to reach out,please drop me an email at tom,
at leadinginacrisiscom, andwe'll see you on the next
episode.
Take care.
Marc Mullen (25:01):
Thank you.
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