July 13, 2025 • 25 mins
When does crisis preparation cross the line into inauthentic communication? The recent Air India crash that claimed 270 lives sparked a fascinating controversy when their CEO's statement appeared virtually identical to American Airlines' earlier crisis statement.
Crisis communications experts Tom Mueller, Mark Mullen, and guest Destin Singleton dive into this nuanced debate with different perspectives. Is this merely a "tempest in a teapot" where effective templates were repurposed appropriately? Or does it represent a troubling lack of authenticity at a moment when grieving stakeholders desperately needed genuine communication?
The conversation explores compelling angles often overlooked in corporate communications analysis. Was delivering the statement exclusively in English appropriate for an Indian audience? How does cultural context affect our perception of "stiff" versus "professional" delivery? And what happens when stakeholders notice similarities between crisis statements, potentially creating a secondary crisis of trust?
Most fascinatingly, the discussion ventures into AI's emerging role in crisis response. Could AI-generated spokespeople delivering perfectly crafted statements become commonplace? Should they? The ethical implications are immense as organizations balance efficiency against authenticity in their most vulnerable moments.
If you'd like to reach out to Destin Singleton, find her at www.emiccomms.com
Reach Marc Mullen via email at marcmullenccc@gmail.com
Have thoughts to share or a new topic to recommend? Email Tom at tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:07):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
Hey, on this podcast we talkall things crisis management and
we like to share stories fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
With me today, my co-host, markMullen, joining from Washington
State.
Marc Mullen (00:23):
Hi, mark today my co-host, mark mullen, joining
from washington state.
Tom Mueller (00:27):
Hi mark, hello tom.
Happy to be here and with ustoday.
Again our friend and specialguest, destin singleton, joining
us from new bronfels, texas.
Hey, destin howdy y'all?
Okay, hey, that sounded veryauthentically texan.
Yeah, it comes honesttechnically Texan, it comes
(00:48):
honest.
You know, I'm trying to switchfrom saying you guys and my
normal Midwestern approach tosay y'all, which seems to be
more neutrally accepted whenyou're standing in front of a
group of people doing a trainingsession or something.
So y'all.
I hope we have a really greatpodcast today.
The subject for today well,hang on, before I jump into that
(01:13):
, I just wanted to throw out aquick recognition.
Mark, you and I were recognizedby a podcast rating company and
advertising agency for this theLeading in a Crisis podcast and
they actually ranked us numberfive crisis podcast for 2025.
So it's always nice to get alittle bit of recognition.
But congratulations to us.
(01:34):
We're having fun and it's niceto know where people are
listening and we're getting somerecognition.
Marc Mullen (01:39):
Right, it's nice to be stretched.
It's my favorite.
Okay, great.
Thank you, destin.
We just moved up to number four.
It's nice to have a good timeand learn a lot and hopefully
have a positive impact in thefield.
Tom Mueller (01:57):
We're not the biggest podcast out there, but
we are heard in 78 countries atlast count, so there's a lot of
people around the world who aretuning in just to kind of hear
the latest on what's happeningwith key issues and to hear from
experts like Destin and Markand Tom on issues that are
happening in this space.
Well done all On our podcast.
(02:21):
Today we're going to talk abouta kind of an interesting topic.
It's around the Air India planecrash that happened on June
12th in India.
Unfortunately, 270 people werekilled in that plane crash.
You may recall this is anaircraft that crashed shortly
(02:41):
after takeoff and there was onesurvivor from that crash, a
gentleman sitting in seat.
Anybody know which seat he wassitting in 11A be the most
famous seat to sit in on a planegoing forward, but there was
one survivor for that.
(03:02):
So it was a tragic thing andAir India got out there and were
communicating fairly quicklyabout this.
They had their CEO out issuinga videotaped statement that was
posted out on the website forthe company, but interestingly,
several of us noticed that thatstatement sounded very familiar
(03:26):
to us and in fact, there's beena bit of a phenomenon running
around on the Internet now ofpeople comparing the CEO of Air
India and his statement to thatof Robert Isom of American
Airlines and his statementfollowing the unfortunate
collision between an AmericanAirlines commuter plane and a
(03:48):
Army helicopter over DullesAirport in Washington DC.
Some fun video clips out thereshowing side-by-side comparisons
.
As it turns out, destin and Ihave kind of different
perspectives on all of that.
I view this as more of atempest in a teapot that, even
(04:09):
if they did copy the samestatement that American Airlines
used so eloquently, to methat's OK, as long as they
delivered it empathetically andit was fit for purpose for the
stakeholders that they would betalking to in India from that
crash.
So in my view, this wholecontroversy is a tempest in a
(04:31):
teapot.
But there's a lot of others outthere who are taking bigger
issue with this.
One of those is our very own,destin Singleton.
So, destin, tell us your takeon this tempest in a teapot, as
I call it.
Destin Singleton (04:48):
Yeah, I'm happy to so really quickly.
My name is Destin Singleton, Iam the owner of Emic
Communications and I help myclients through change and
challenge like this kind ofsituation.
Yeah, I actually I see this asquite similar, meaning that
you've got a difference betweena template and authenticity,
(05:13):
because authenticity reallymatters in crisis situations and
you know you've heard us talkabout how important it is to
have plans, to have your plansin place, to have your templates
in place, and that is okay, tohave templates that might be
(05:33):
similar to your neighbor ormight be similar to another
organization in your sector, andthere have been some discussion
that you know these folks werepulling from.
You know, provided by anassociation or something like
that.
So I think it's okay.
(05:59):
Templates are okay because ofthis statement that was
perceived to be a copy or, youknow, too close to another.
Tom Mueller (06:12):
Mark, what's your take on this?
Marc Mullen (06:14):
Yeah, Well, first of all, there's an old adage
that says that truth and trustwalk hand in hand, and sometimes
truth is pulling trust alongand sometimes trust is pushing
truth along.
And I think that's a little bitof the kerfuffle we ran into.
Here is, at a time when youneed people to believe what
(06:34):
you're telling them, andparticularly to accept your
actions or your words.
And particularly to accept youractions or your words, it's not
helpful to be immediatelysuspected for not using your own
words.
So, while I see templates asvaluable for all sorts of
reasons, they have to bepersonalized.
You have to be ready for whatyou say to have been modified
(06:57):
enough to fit both the cultureand circumstance and the person
delivering it and again to this,it sounded like for what you
say to have been modified enoughto fit both the culture and
circumstance and the persondelivering it.
And again to this, it soundedlike.
Unfortunately, both of thempulled it off the shelf template
and used it.
It sounded good the first timearound.
The second time around it wasnoticed.
And even if it is a tempest ina teapot, if it happens a third
time, the penalties will behigher.
(07:21):
Yeah, so this, to me at least,is a clarion call to
organizations to go back andlook at the templates they have.
Tom Mueller (07:29):
Right, well, we'll come back to that in just a
moment, mark, that's a greatcall out there.
But you know, the issue aroundtrust is an important one.
But when I think about you knowthe stakeholders who the CEO
would have been talking to whenissuing that statement and
subsequent communications, in mymind, you know those people.
(07:54):
You know residents in India,families of those who were on
the plane, friends, et cetera.
I just can't imagine thatthey're comparing statements,
you know, from an AmericanAirlines crash six months ago to
this crash now.
So that's part of the reasonI'm saying if the statements fit
(08:16):
for purpose and it'sempathetically delivered to the
stakeholders you're targeting,then I think it's okay.
Now, the point about customizingit is a terrific one and that's
an open question in my mind.
Right, was that fit for purposefor the audiences they were
(08:36):
talking to?
If I was a family member and Iheard that statement from the
CEO, I would have thought, hey,he's saying the right things
here.
I'm hearing the empathy and thesorrow in there.
Even if it was a little stiffly, delivered in his case.
(08:57):
What else, destin?
What else kind of points wouldyou make around this one?
Destin Singleton (09:06):
There's two things that really come to mind
in this instance, especially ifyou look at and in fact, tom,
let's make sure we provide kindof these videos, side-by-side
videos, because they'refascinating to watch, but just
delivery.
Number one is delivery andsecond that I'll discuss is
audience.
You know delivery you mentionedyou know.
(09:27):
So we actually were able toreach out to somebody in the
region to see whether, you know,delivery was taken in that way,
and because I'm wondering ifthere's a cultural difference,
that we are perceiving this asstiff, whereas you know
otherwise might not acrossacross the world, so always
sensitive to that, but no, itwas perceived that way.
(09:50):
And so how do you?
You know leaders that haveprobably been through a lot of
training, how do we make surethat they're present and that
they are, you know, using all oftheir emotional intelligence,
at the point when they reallyneed it, when they're under
immense pressure, and also maybethe, and when you are able to
(10:11):
view these videos, you can seealso kind of the presence of the
person.
One is a little more relaxedand the other is a little more
professionally done, maybe thebackground and such.
So all of those areconsiderations and none of this,
none of what one of, not one ofthese things are the reason it
was taken this way.
So so there's that, and thenthe.
(10:34):
The second point I had wasAudience, audience.
Thank you, tom.
Tom Mueller (10:37):
You're taking notes , I am.
I had was audience audience.
Destin Singleton (10:41):
Thank you, tom , you're taking notes.
I am so just really thinkingabout you know who is it you're
actually talking to and, basedon our research, hopefully this
is accurate, but based on ourresearch, we have discovered
that this was only delivered inEnglish.
So were we necessarily what?
(11:02):
Did it reach the intendedaudience in the intended way?
And so, you know, was that adisconnect To me?
I see several things that arekind of pointing to the end
result, which was an erosion oftrust.
Tom Mueller (11:16):
You know, it's fascinating to see that that was
only delivered in English.
That surprises me for anincident that happened in India.
I would have thought there'dhave been a Hindi version of
that and communications in locallanguage, and maybe there was
some of that more internet-basedor later stuff, but this is
(11:38):
your number one point ofcommunications here.
This is your CEO deliveringthis.
I was truly taken aback that wedidn't see that in local
language.
Justin or Dustin, sorry to yourpoint about the delivery it you
know, it raises the issue againof in a major incident like this
(12:00):
, is your CEO your best weapon?
Is he or she your bestspokesperson?
And because we know not allleaders are good in front of a
camera, right, there's justsomething that doesn't work, and
we've seen that in variousexamples from incidents around
the world.
And we've seen that in variousexamples from incidents around
(12:21):
the world.
But yet in a situation likethis with a major airline, it
kind of feels to me like you gotto have the CEO out there doing
this.
Would you agree with me on that, destin?
Destin Singleton (12:38):
Yeah, especially if that is, in the
sector, the norm, which is whatwe have seen.
And you know, just a fewpodcasts ago, we praised the
American Airlines CEO for his,like super swift and heartfelt
response, and this, you know, heknew that, and so you know, I
don't, I don't know.
It makes me wonder whathappened with the communications
team and kind of how they cameup with this.
(13:00):
Had they put it in their backpocket as hey, this is best
practice?
And then when the rubber metthe road, they came back with
that and that is obviouslyill-planned, but they were
trying to do their best.
Tom Mueller (13:18):
I don't think they were Well Destin you raised an
interesting point in a previouschat we had on this, which was
or Mark, maybe it was you Couldthis have been an AI written
statement, depending on howrecently your large language
model is updated and trained?
But could this have beensomething that they snatched
(13:40):
from an AI model and used itthat way?
Marc Mullen (13:45):
It could be.
But if an AI is smart enough towrite that, it should be smart
enough to make sure it'sculturally contextual, and so I
don't see AI in this.
I see Xerox, ai and this.
(14:06):
I see Xerox.
That was cute, wasn't it?
But there is a question aboutthe language.
Real quickly, too, they sayEnglish is the language of
business, and so everywhere yougo in the world you can speak
English and get your work done.
I'm wondering if English is thelanguage of crisis response,
more than we realize that, infact, their world at that point,
in that setting, was entirelyfocused on communicating in
English.
They were probably definitelytalking with Boeing, probably
(14:28):
talking with everywhere they fly, and so on.
And again, that's a role whereit's okay for a response to be
done in a single language if ithelps it run better.
That's where a communicator hasto step in and say but
stakeholder language is theirtongue.
And again, our communicator isready to stand up in a room
where everything you hear is inEnglish and advocate for the
(14:52):
home language.
And I think we can miss thatreally easily because we just
hear everybody else in theelevator easily because we just
hear everybody else in theelevator and maybe this was
intended for a differentaudience.
Destin Singleton (15:04):
Maybe we're reading it completely wrong.
Tom Mueller (15:06):
Right.
The stakeholder, shareholderaudience potentially right.
Or international investors.
Destin Singleton (15:14):
Yes, the international bodies that are
airline safety across the board.
So it could be.
However, the main problem stillexists, right, an erosion of
trust because of, you know, arepeat of a message that and
(15:37):
it's in.
I hate to say it, it's not, itdoesn't seem.
If you really evaluate thewords, it's very close.
So you know it's not like we'resaying, it's slightly close, it
was very close to the previousmessage.
Tom Mueller (15:53):
All right, Well, tell you what?
Let's listen to a playback ofthat side-by-side.
We've seen a couple examples ofthat out on YouTube, where
people have sort of put thesetwo CEOs side by side and run
through it.
Let's listen to a minute or twoof that.
Robert Isom, American Airline (16:11):
I want to brief you on a serious
accident that occurred involvingan American Eagle aircraft.
Campbell Wilson, India Airlin (16:15):
I want to brief you on a serious
incident that involved an AirIndia aircraft a short while ago
.
Robert Isom, American Air (16:21):
First and most importantly, I'd like
to express our deep sorrow aboutthese events.
Campbell Wilson, India Airl (16:27):
But first and most importantly, I
would like to express our deepsorrow about this event.
Robert Isom, American Airl (16:33):
This is a difficult day for all of
us at American Airlines, and ourefforts now are focused
entirely on the needs of ourpassengers, crew members,
partners, first responders,along with their families and
loved ones.
Campbell Wilson, India Air (16:46):
This is a difficult day for all of
us at Air India, and our effortsnow are focused entirely on the
needs of our passengers, crewmembers, their families and
loved ones.
Robert Isom, American Airline (16:58):
I know that there are many
questions and at this earlystage I will not be able to
answer all of them, but I dowant to share the information I
have at this time.
Campbell Wilson, India Airlin (17:08):
I know that there are many
questions and at this stage Iwill not be able to answer all
of them, but I do want to sharethe information we have at this
time.
Tom Mueller (17:18):
So fascinating.
There's a lot of similaritiesin those statements.
Very different delivery though,Destin, as you pointed out
earlier, and that to me justmakes a huge difference.
Any other takeaways fromwatching that side by side again
?
Destin Singleton (17:45):
Yeah, delivery is, um is key, um, you know,
one is very straight, one isvery kind of leaning in and and
um, and and I, I get it.
I am an American and I amtaking the American context.
So I don't want to be, um, I donot, you know, uh, I know what,
where my biases or my blindspots are here.
Um, however, I do, you know theauthenticity.
(18:05):
Authenticity is coming throughdifferently for one versus the
other.
So, however, what could havebeen done, maybe physically, to
change that approach if it wasfor an American audience, to my,
to my ear and tone my, to myear and tone um, however, um,
(18:27):
you know, I wonder, as we'vementioned before, is it was as
intended for a differentaudience than we were initially
thinking um?
Marc Mullen (18:31):
but, yeah, delivery , huge right, but again, if, if,
if your audience is not yourstakeholder, if your stakeholder
audience is international oramerican or english speaking,
there's a presentation stylethat matches that, and if your
audience is your home population, there's probably a slightly
(18:52):
different presentation.
It could be down to how he wasstanding, it could be down to
production quality of the video.
You know at every point, if youput the two videos side by side
, at every point the deliverywas better, the filming was
better, the body language wasbetter, it was like universal.
And so then we're back now tothat cultural cloud.
Destin Singleton (19:13):
Yes, and I have coached people.
And I have coachedinternational CEOs right and
typically that is, whileAmerican is a little more casual
, but international business isa little more buttoned up.
But I'm with you, Mark.
What other aspects of it couldhave been adjusted slightly to
(19:35):
just create that bit ofauthenticity?
But it could also be tone, itcould also be, you know,
delivery of the words themselves.
But there's still the issue ofthe words.
Tom Mueller (19:47):
So we kind of recognize that there's
potentially, you know, acultural lens that we're looking
at this through and that couldhave some, you know, impact on,
you know, on the authenticity ofour arguments here, on the
authenticity of our argumentshere.
But a lot of experience in thisroom on this call, dealing with
(20:08):
international incidents andinternational executives, and we
pretty universally are sayinghe could have done a better job
with that.
Hey, I want to turn the pagereal quick, guys, and look
forward just for a minute, andthis is a thought that just came
into my mildly exhausted braintoday.
But we talked about AI just alittle bit earlier.
(20:30):
Maybe the statement was writtenby AI.
How long will it be before wecan have an AI version of that
CEO delivering that statementand delivering it to perfection,
because it's prepped and editedby AI?
Marc Mullen (20:50):
Terminator comes to mind.
Destin Singleton (20:52):
Terminator.
I think we're pretty close toit and I think it is creatable
now, but creating authenticityis difficult, and so it would
need to be trained.
It requires a ton of additionalwork rather than just pulling
(21:14):
something off the shelf.
But yeah, we're very close.
Marc Mullen (21:19):
One of the challenges with delivering.
One of the challenges withdelivering messages verbally is
when you pick up a script,you're really picking up the
persona of the writer, Unlessthe writer is very careful to
match what they're writing ishow you speak.
So most likely, all of us endup if we don't really understand
that.
We end up trying to be someoneelse.
(21:42):
We don't know it, buteverything about the way it's
written is for that other person.
And the AI is not going to help,that Agreed, so it's almost
like it needs to know.
I'd have to take all mywritings and put it into the
system and then ask AI to writesomething out, and that would
probably be almostindistinguishable.
Tom Mueller (22:00):
Yeah, but you, you train that AI, though.
Right, you would put inspeeches from the CEO you know
over the last couple of yearsand Q&A session recordings, and
I would think you know it's thewhole deep fake thing, but used
for official purposes.
Right, we're creating a cloneand putting them up for public
(22:25):
review.
Well, that certainly challengesthe authenticity muscles a
little bit, doesn't it, destin?
Destin Singleton (22:33):
Yes, it does, and I certainly, in this kind of
situation, would not utilizesomething like that, especially
if it's an AI-generatedspokesperson.
It makes me very uncomfortable,but hey, ai is a tool that most
of us use every day, and ifyou're not, you probably should.
Tom Mueller (22:58):
She's looking at you, Mark.
She's looking at you.
Marc Mullen (23:01):
She's definitely looking at you, Tom.
Destin Singleton (23:04):
I can tell that.
And in a crisis, ai can besuper, super helpful for
research, for deep research, forideation, for re-evaluating
what you've already written, forideation, for re-evaluating
what you've already written, andespecially if you have trained
(23:28):
and this information, and thenplus just future automation of
processes that we spend a lot oftime on, even in a crisis, so
making us more efficient.
So, yes, ai and crisis is hereto stay, but when it comes to
golly having an AI-generatedspokesperson, I sure hope not.
(23:52):
I hope we never get there.
Marc Mullen (23:54):
Right.
One of the challenges of thisis that talking about AI helping
with crisis response and Iassume you're meaning creating
content helping with crisisresponse, and I assume you're
meaning creating content it'seasy to do that when we're
sitting here and we might havejust finished our cup of coffee
on a nice afternoon.
We're not in the 10 out of a 10scale crisis where the lizard
(24:17):
brains are running rampant andthe stakes are high on every
single thing and I think again,templates, ai, almost everything
you plan on doing.
You've got to put it into thatintense critical, your head's
about ready to blow off momentand see if it plays.
I'm having a hard timepicturing a corporate attorney
(24:38):
letting something written by AIgo by in a
reputation-threatening incident,unless they're very well-versed
in AI and they have completetrust not just in the person
that brought it, but they knowand understand how you primed
the tool so it would deliverwhat you want.
Tom Mueller (24:59):
Okay, well, lots more to come on this AI
conversation.
Mark, you've raised someinteresting points there and I
guarantee you we're going tocircle back to this topic again
and again in the coming months.
I think we'll wrap it up.
We'll wrap it up there for thisepisode team.
Thanks, destin, for joining us.
Again, mark, always great tohear your thoughts on these
(25:22):
things.
So thank you both for joiningand that's going to do it for
this episode of the Leading in aCrisis podcast.
Hey, if you want to reach outto us, drop me an email at tom,
at leadinginacrisiscom.
Thank you again for joining.
We really appreciate you beingwith us and we'll see you again
soon.
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a
Crisis podcast.
Hey, on this podcast we talkall things crisis management and
we like to share stories fromexperienced crisis leaders.
I'm Tom Mueller.
With me today, my co-host, markMullen, joining from Washington
State.
Marc Mullen (00:23):
Hi, mark today my co-host, mark mullen, joining
from washington state.
Tom Mueller (00:27):
Hi mark, hello tom.
Happy to be here and with ustoday.
Again our friend and specialguest, destin singleton, joining
us from new bronfels, texas.
Hey, destin howdy y'all?
Okay, hey, that sounded veryauthentically texan.
Yeah, it comes honesttechnically Texan, it comes
(00:48):
honest.
You know, I'm trying to switchfrom saying you guys and my
normal Midwestern approach tosay y'all, which seems to be
more neutrally accepted whenyou're standing in front of a
group of people doing a trainingsession or something.
So y'all.
I hope we have a really greatpodcast today.
The subject for today well,hang on, before I jump into that
(01:13):
, I just wanted to throw out aquick recognition.
Mark, you and I were recognizedby a podcast rating company and
advertising agency for this theLeading in a Crisis podcast and
they actually ranked us numberfive crisis podcast for 2025.
So it's always nice to get alittle bit of recognition.
But congratulations to us.
(01:34):
We're having fun and it's niceto know where people are
listening and we're getting somerecognition.
Marc Mullen (01:39):
Right, it's nice to be stretched.
It's my favorite.
Okay, great.
Thank you, destin.
We just moved up to number four.
It's nice to have a good timeand learn a lot and hopefully
have a positive impact in thefield.
Tom Mueller (01:57):
We're not the biggest podcast out there, but
we are heard in 78 countries atlast count, so there's a lot of
people around the world who aretuning in just to kind of hear
the latest on what's happeningwith key issues and to hear from
experts like Destin and Markand Tom on issues that are
happening in this space.
Well done all On our podcast.
(02:21):
Today we're going to talk abouta kind of an interesting topic.
It's around the Air India planecrash that happened on June
12th in India.
Unfortunately, 270 people werekilled in that plane crash.
You may recall this is anaircraft that crashed shortly
(02:41):
after takeoff and there was onesurvivor from that crash, a
gentleman sitting in seat.
Anybody know which seat he wassitting in 11A be the most
famous seat to sit in on a planegoing forward, but there was
one survivor for that.
(03:02):
So it was a tragic thing andAir India got out there and were
communicating fairly quicklyabout this.
They had their CEO out issuinga videotaped statement that was
posted out on the website forthe company, but interestingly,
several of us noticed that thatstatement sounded very familiar
(03:26):
to us and in fact, there's beena bit of a phenomenon running
around on the Internet now ofpeople comparing the CEO of Air
India and his statement to thatof Robert Isom of American
Airlines and his statementfollowing the unfortunate
collision between an AmericanAirlines commuter plane and a
(03:48):
Army helicopter over DullesAirport in Washington DC.
Some fun video clips out thereshowing side-by-side comparisons
.
As it turns out, destin and Ihave kind of different
perspectives on all of that.
I view this as more of atempest in a teapot that, even
(04:09):
if they did copy the samestatement that American Airlines
used so eloquently, to methat's OK, as long as they
delivered it empathetically andit was fit for purpose for the
stakeholders that they would betalking to in India from that
crash.
So in my view, this wholecontroversy is a tempest in a
(04:31):
teapot.
But there's a lot of others outthere who are taking bigger
issue with this.
One of those is our very own,destin Singleton.
So, destin, tell us your takeon this tempest in a teapot, as
I call it.
Destin Singleton (04:48):
Yeah, I'm happy to so really quickly.
My name is Destin Singleton, Iam the owner of Emic
Communications and I help myclients through change and
challenge like this kind ofsituation.
Yeah, I actually I see this asquite similar, meaning that
you've got a difference betweena template and authenticity,
(05:13):
because authenticity reallymatters in crisis situations and
you know you've heard us talkabout how important it is to
have plans, to have your plansin place, to have your templates
in place, and that is okay, tohave templates that might be
(05:33):
similar to your neighbor ormight be similar to another
organization in your sector, andthere have been some discussion
that you know these folks werepulling from.
You know, provided by anassociation or something like
that.
So I think it's okay.
(05:59):
Templates are okay because ofthis statement that was
perceived to be a copy or, youknow, too close to another.
Tom Mueller (06:12):
Mark, what's your take on this?
Marc Mullen (06:14):
Yeah, Well, first of all, there's an old adage
that says that truth and trustwalk hand in hand, and sometimes
truth is pulling trust alongand sometimes trust is pushing
truth along.
And I think that's a little bitof the kerfuffle we ran into.
Here is, at a time when youneed people to believe what
(06:34):
you're telling them, andparticularly to accept your
actions or your words.
And particularly to accept youractions or your words, it's not
helpful to be immediatelysuspected for not using your own
words.
So, while I see templates asvaluable for all sorts of
reasons, they have to bepersonalized.
You have to be ready for whatyou say to have been modified
(06:57):
enough to fit both the cultureand circumstance and the person
delivering it and again to this,it sounded like for what you
say to have been modified enoughto fit both the culture and
circumstance and the persondelivering it.
And again to this, it soundedlike.
Unfortunately, both of thempulled it off the shelf template
and used it.
It sounded good the first timearound.
The second time around it wasnoticed.
And even if it is a tempest ina teapot, if it happens a third
time, the penalties will behigher.
(07:21):
Yeah, so this, to me at least,is a clarion call to
organizations to go back andlook at the templates they have.
Tom Mueller (07:29):
Right, well, we'll come back to that in just a
moment, mark, that's a greatcall out there.
But you know, the issue aroundtrust is an important one.
But when I think about you knowthe stakeholders who the CEO
would have been talking to whenissuing that statement and
subsequent communications, in mymind, you know those people.
(07:54):
You know residents in India,families of those who were on
the plane, friends, et cetera.
I just can't imagine thatthey're comparing statements,
you know, from an AmericanAirlines crash six months ago to
this crash now.
So that's part of the reasonI'm saying if the statements fit
(08:16):
for purpose and it'sempathetically delivered to the
stakeholders you're targeting,then I think it's okay.
Now, the point about customizingit is a terrific one and that's
an open question in my mind.
Right, was that fit for purposefor the audiences they were
(08:36):
talking to?
If I was a family member and Iheard that statement from the
CEO, I would have thought, hey,he's saying the right things
here.
I'm hearing the empathy and thesorrow in there.
Even if it was a little stiffly, delivered in his case.
(08:57):
What else, destin?
What else kind of points wouldyou make around this one?
Destin Singleton (09:06):
There's two things that really come to mind
in this instance, especially ifyou look at and in fact, tom,
let's make sure we provide kindof these videos, side-by-side
videos, because they'refascinating to watch, but just
delivery.
Number one is delivery andsecond that I'll discuss is
audience.
You know delivery you mentionedyou know.
(09:27):
So we actually were able toreach out to somebody in the
region to see whether, you know,delivery was taken in that way,
and because I'm wondering ifthere's a cultural difference,
that we are perceiving this asstiff, whereas you know
otherwise might not acrossacross the world, so always
sensitive to that, but no, itwas perceived that way.
(09:50):
And so how do you?
You know leaders that haveprobably been through a lot of
training, how do we make surethat they're present and that
they are, you know, using all oftheir emotional intelligence,
at the point when they reallyneed it, when they're under
immense pressure, and also maybethe, and when you are able to
(10:11):
view these videos, you can seealso kind of the presence of the
person.
One is a little more relaxedand the other is a little more
professionally done, maybe thebackground and such.
So all of those areconsiderations and none of this,
none of what one of, not one ofthese things are the reason it
was taken this way.
So so there's that, and thenthe.
(10:34):
The second point I had wasAudience, audience.
Thank you, tom.
Tom Mueller (10:37):
You're taking notes , I am.
I had was audience audience.
Destin Singleton (10:41):
Thank you, tom , you're taking notes.
I am so just really thinkingabout you know who is it you're
actually talking to and, basedon our research, hopefully this
is accurate, but based on ourresearch, we have discovered
that this was only delivered inEnglish.
So were we necessarily what?
(11:02):
Did it reach the intendedaudience in the intended way?
And so, you know, was that adisconnect To me?
I see several things that arekind of pointing to the end
result, which was an erosion oftrust.
Tom Mueller (11:16):
You know, it's fascinating to see that that was
only delivered in English.
That surprises me for anincident that happened in India.
I would have thought there'dhave been a Hindi version of
that and communications in locallanguage, and maybe there was
some of that more internet-basedor later stuff, but this is
(11:38):
your number one point ofcommunications here.
This is your CEO deliveringthis.
I was truly taken aback that wedidn't see that in local
language.
Justin or Dustin, sorry to yourpoint about the delivery it you
know, it raises the issue againof in a major incident like this
(12:00):
, is your CEO your best weapon?
Is he or she your bestspokesperson?
And because we know not allleaders are good in front of a
camera, right, there's justsomething that doesn't work, and
we've seen that in variousexamples from incidents around
the world.
And we've seen that in variousexamples from incidents around
(12:21):
the world.
But yet in a situation likethis with a major airline, it
kind of feels to me like you gotto have the CEO out there doing
this.
Would you agree with me on that, destin?
Destin Singleton (12:38):
Yeah, especially if that is, in the
sector, the norm, which is whatwe have seen.
And you know, just a fewpodcasts ago, we praised the
American Airlines CEO for his,like super swift and heartfelt
response, and this, you know, heknew that, and so you know, I
don't, I don't know.
It makes me wonder whathappened with the communications
team and kind of how they cameup with this.
(13:00):
Had they put it in their backpocket as hey, this is best
practice?
And then when the rubber metthe road, they came back with
that and that is obviouslyill-planned, but they were
trying to do their best.
Tom Mueller (13:18):
I don't think they were Well Destin you raised an
interesting point in a previouschat we had on this, which was
or Mark, maybe it was you Couldthis have been an AI written
statement, depending on howrecently your large language
model is updated and trained?
But could this have beensomething that they snatched
(13:40):
from an AI model and used itthat way?
Marc Mullen (13:45):
It could be.
But if an AI is smart enough towrite that, it should be smart
enough to make sure it'sculturally contextual, and so I
don't see AI in this.
I see Xerox, ai and this.
(14:06):
I see Xerox.
That was cute, wasn't it?
But there is a question aboutthe language.
Real quickly, too, they sayEnglish is the language of
business, and so everywhere yougo in the world you can speak
English and get your work done.
I'm wondering if English is thelanguage of crisis response,
more than we realize that, infact, their world at that point,
in that setting, was entirelyfocused on communicating in
English.
They were probably definitelytalking with Boeing, probably
(14:28):
talking with everywhere they fly, and so on.
And again, that's a role whereit's okay for a response to be
done in a single language if ithelps it run better.
That's where a communicator hasto step in and say but
stakeholder language is theirtongue.
And again, our communicator isready to stand up in a room
where everything you hear is inEnglish and advocate for the
(14:52):
home language.
And I think we can miss thatreally easily because we just
hear everybody else in theelevator easily because we just
hear everybody else in theelevator and maybe this was
intended for a differentaudience.
Destin Singleton (15:04):
Maybe we're reading it completely wrong.
Tom Mueller (15:06):
Right.
The stakeholder, shareholderaudience potentially right.
Or international investors.
Destin Singleton (15:14):
Yes, the international bodies that are
airline safety across the board.
So it could be.
However, the main problem stillexists, right, an erosion of
trust because of, you know, arepeat of a message that and
(15:37):
it's in.
I hate to say it, it's not, itdoesn't seem.
If you really evaluate thewords, it's very close.
So you know it's not like we'resaying, it's slightly close, it
was very close to the previousmessage.
Tom Mueller (15:53):
All right, Well, tell you what?
Let's listen to a playback ofthat side-by-side.
We've seen a couple examples ofthat out on YouTube, where
people have sort of put thesetwo CEOs side by side and run
through it.
Let's listen to a minute or twoof that.
Robert Isom, American Airline (16:11):
I want to brief you on a serious
accident that occurred involvingan American Eagle aircraft.
Campbell Wilson, India Airlin (16:15):
I want to brief you on a serious
incident that involved an AirIndia aircraft a short while ago
.
Robert Isom, American Air (16:21):
First and most importantly, I'd like
to express our deep sorrow aboutthese events.
Campbell Wilson, India Airl (16:27):
But first and most importantly, I
would like to express our deepsorrow about this event.
Robert Isom, American Airl (16:33):
This is a difficult day for all of
us at American Airlines, and ourefforts now are focused
entirely on the needs of ourpassengers, crew members,
partners, first responders,along with their families and
loved ones.
Campbell Wilson, India Air (16:46):
This is a difficult day for all of
us at Air India, and our effortsnow are focused entirely on the
needs of our passengers, crewmembers, their families and
loved ones.
Robert Isom, American Airline (16:58):
I know that there are many
questions and at this earlystage I will not be able to
answer all of them, but I dowant to share the information I
have at this time.
Campbell Wilson, India Airlin (17:08):
I know that there are many
questions and at this stage Iwill not be able to answer all
of them, but I do want to sharethe information we have at this
time.
Tom Mueller (17:18):
So fascinating.
There's a lot of similaritiesin those statements.
Very different delivery though,Destin, as you pointed out
earlier, and that to me justmakes a huge difference.
Any other takeaways fromwatching that side by side again
?
Destin Singleton (17:45):
Yeah, delivery is, um is key, um, you know,
one is very straight, one isvery kind of leaning in and and
um, and and I, I get it.
I am an American and I amtaking the American context.
So I don't want to be, um, I donot, you know, uh, I know what,
where my biases or my blindspots are here.
Um, however, I do, you know theauthenticity.
(18:05):
Authenticity is coming throughdifferently for one versus the
other.
So, however, what could havebeen done, maybe physically, to
change that approach if it wasfor an American audience, to my,
to my ear and tone my, to myear and tone um, however, um,
(18:27):
you know, I wonder, as we'vementioned before, is it was as
intended for a differentaudience than we were initially
thinking um?
Marc Mullen (18:31):
but, yeah, delivery , huge right, but again, if, if,
if your audience is not yourstakeholder, if your stakeholder
audience is international oramerican or english speaking,
there's a presentation stylethat matches that, and if your
audience is your home population, there's probably a slightly
(18:52):
different presentation.
It could be down to how he wasstanding, it could be down to
production quality of the video.
You know at every point, if youput the two videos side by side
, at every point the deliverywas better, the filming was
better, the body language wasbetter, it was like universal.
And so then we're back now tothat cultural cloud.
Destin Singleton (19:13):
Yes, and I have coached people.
And I have coachedinternational CEOs right and
typically that is, whileAmerican is a little more casual
, but international business isa little more buttoned up.
But I'm with you, Mark.
What other aspects of it couldhave been adjusted slightly to
(19:35):
just create that bit ofauthenticity?
But it could also be tone, itcould also be, you know,
delivery of the words themselves.
But there's still the issue ofthe words.
Tom Mueller (19:47):
So we kind of recognize that there's
potentially, you know, acultural lens that we're looking
at this through and that couldhave some, you know, impact on,
you know, on the authenticity ofour arguments here, on the
authenticity of our argumentshere.
But a lot of experience in thisroom on this call, dealing with
(20:08):
international incidents andinternational executives, and we
pretty universally are sayinghe could have done a better job
with that.
Hey, I want to turn the pagereal quick, guys, and look
forward just for a minute, andthis is a thought that just came
into my mildly exhausted braintoday.
But we talked about AI just alittle bit earlier.
(20:30):
Maybe the statement was writtenby AI.
How long will it be before wecan have an AI version of that
CEO delivering that statementand delivering it to perfection,
because it's prepped and editedby AI?
Marc Mullen (20:50):
Terminator comes to mind.
Destin Singleton (20:52):
Terminator.
I think we're pretty close toit and I think it is creatable
now, but creating authenticityis difficult, and so it would
need to be trained.
It requires a ton of additionalwork rather than just pulling
(21:14):
something off the shelf.
But yeah, we're very close.
Marc Mullen (21:19):
One of the challenges with delivering.
One of the challenges withdelivering messages verbally is
when you pick up a script,you're really picking up the
persona of the writer, Unlessthe writer is very careful to
match what they're writing ishow you speak.
So most likely, all of us endup if we don't really understand
that.
We end up trying to be someoneelse.
(21:42):
We don't know it, buteverything about the way it's
written is for that other person.
And the AI is not going to help,that Agreed, so it's almost
like it needs to know.
I'd have to take all mywritings and put it into the
system and then ask AI to writesomething out, and that would
probably be almostindistinguishable.
Tom Mueller (22:00):
Yeah, but you, you train that AI, though.
Right, you would put inspeeches from the CEO you know
over the last couple of yearsand Q&A session recordings, and
I would think you know it's thewhole deep fake thing, but used
for official purposes.
Right, we're creating a cloneand putting them up for public
(22:25):
review.
Well, that certainly challengesthe authenticity muscles a
little bit, doesn't it, destin?
Destin Singleton (22:33):
Yes, it does, and I certainly, in this kind of
situation, would not utilizesomething like that, especially
if it's an AI-generatedspokesperson.
It makes me very uncomfortable,but hey, ai is a tool that most
of us use every day, and ifyou're not, you probably should.
Tom Mueller (22:58):
She's looking at you, Mark.
She's looking at you.
Marc Mullen (23:01):
She's definitely looking at you, Tom.
Destin Singleton (23:04):
I can tell that.
And in a crisis, ai can besuper, super helpful for
research, for deep research, forideation, for re-evaluating
what you've already written, forideation, for re-evaluating
what you've already written, andespecially if you have trained
(23:28):
and this information, and thenplus just future automation of
processes that we spend a lot oftime on, even in a crisis, so
making us more efficient.
So, yes, ai and crisis is hereto stay, but when it comes to
golly having an AI-generatedspokesperson, I sure hope not.
(23:52):
I hope we never get there.
Marc Mullen (23:54):
Right.
One of the challenges of thisis that talking about AI helping
with crisis response and Iassume you're meaning creating
content helping with crisisresponse, and I assume you're
meaning creating content it'seasy to do that when we're
sitting here and we might havejust finished our cup of coffee
on a nice afternoon.
We're not in the 10 out of a 10scale crisis where the lizard
(24:17):
brains are running rampant andthe stakes are high on every
single thing and I think again,templates, ai, almost everything
you plan on doing.
You've got to put it into thatintense critical, your head's
about ready to blow off momentand see if it plays.
I'm having a hard timepicturing a corporate attorney
(24:38):
letting something written by AIgo by in a
reputation-threatening incident,unless they're very well-versed
in AI and they have completetrust not just in the person
that brought it, but they knowand understand how you primed
the tool so it would deliverwhat you want.
Tom Mueller (24:59):
Okay, well, lots more to come on this AI
conversation.
Mark, you've raised someinteresting points there and I
guarantee you we're going tocircle back to this topic again
and again in the coming months.
I think we'll wrap it up.
We'll wrap it up there for thisepisode team.
Thanks, destin, for joining us.
Again, mark, always great tohear your thoughts on these
(25:22):
things.
So thank you both for joiningand that's going to do it for
this episode of the Leading in aCrisis podcast.
Hey, if you want to reach outto us, drop me an email at tom,
at leadinginacrisiscom.
Thank you again for joining.
We really appreciate you beingwith us and we'll see you again
soon.
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