July 19, 2025 • 30 mins
Behind every crisis response lies hidden patterns that determine success or failure. In this illuminating conversation, crisis communications expert Jeff Hahn pulls back the curtain on these patterns, sharing insights from his book "Breaking Bad News" and his decades of experience in the trenches of corporate crises.
Drawing from his 15 years at Motorola handling everything from hazardous material spills to workplace violence, Hahn reveals how his fascination with crisis communications evolved into a seven-year journey to decode the science behind breaking bad news effectively. His research is remarkably precise – analyzing 505 NPR interviews to identify exactly six question types journalists ask in a predictable sequence, and categorizing precisely 16 message types organizations can deploy during a crisis.
At the heart of Hahn's approach is his "3M Model" – Message, Messenger, and Method. This framework challenges conventional wisdom, particularly around who should speak during a crisis. While many organizations instinctively push their CEO forward, Hahn argues this often backfires, citing BP's Tony Hayward's infamous "I'd like my life back" comment as a cautionary tale. Instead, he advocates for strategic messenger selection and careful war room composition, where lawyers provide counsel but don't dominate the response strategy.
You can reach Jeff Hahn at jeff.hahn@hahn.agency.
Reach Marc Mullen at marcmullenccc@gmail.com
Reach Tom Mueller at tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Mueller (00:09):
All right, all set.
Hi everyone, and welcome backto the Leading in a Crisis
podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
do that through storytelling andlessons learned to share from
experienced crisis leaders.
Thanks for joining us.
Again today I'm tom mueller,writing shotgun with me again
(00:30):
today my co-host, mark mullen.
Marc Mullen (00:34):
Hello Tom, looking forward to today's session
awesome.
Tom Mueller (00:39):
We've got a very interesting guest with us today.
He is jeff hahn, and Jeff has anew book coming out called
Breaking Bad News and it isfocused on crisis communications
, and Jeff has some kind ofunique offerings in this book we
thought would be interesting tobring up to our listeners.
Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Hahn (01:01):
Tom Mark, great to be with you, really pleased that
you're focused in studying thispart of communications.
It's a craft that mixes someart and science together and it
certainly deserves the attentionyou're giving it.
So thank you.
Tom Mueller (01:16):
Yes, thank you for that.
We're having a lot of fun withit and you know the pool is deep
of interesting people to talkto and, you know, bring out in
this forum and our objectivehere really is just sharing
experiences from people who aresort of long in tooth and have
been through a lot to help theyounger generation that's coming
(01:38):
up, you know, to tap into thatexpertise, share some lessons
learned and and maybe benefittheir own careers as they go
forward.
Jeff, if you don't mind, couldyou take just a minute and
introduce yourself to ouraudience?
Jeff Hahn (01:54):
Oh for sure, Just a little bit about my background
to help set the stage.
I grew up in Motorola.
From a career standpoint, Ispent 15 years in the
semiconductor business and forall of those 15 years I was
actually a member of the crisismanagement situation assessment
(02:14):
team.
At least to everything fromhazardous material spills to
workplace violence andfatalities, to outbreaks,
(02:35):
contagion outbreaks, and evenspend an entire 48 hours in a
bunker over Y2K, If you rememberthat that was actually the
thing.
worried about it becauseMotorola chips, the
semiconductors with those tinylittle clocks in them, were in
(02:56):
billions of differentapplications.
So it was really enriching fora young communications PR person
to be exposed to all of thosedifferent situations and I came
to fall in love with this partof the whole craft of PR.
Tom Mueller (03:14):
It is fascinating and we learn something new every
day as we go through this.
Each one of us, in our careers,have dealt with different types
of crises and different crisesrequire different skill sets,
but there are some common themesthat go across crisis
(03:40):
situations and I know you tacklesome of those in your book.
One of the things I like aboutthis is that you focus a lot on
case studies and looking at abunch of different incidents
that have happened in recentyears.
So that's kind of a uniquething for me.
But as you think about yourbook and the sweat effort you've
put into that, what's uniqueabout the offering that you're
(04:01):
bringing forward here?
Jeff Hahn (04:03):
Well, in Breaking Bad News, I sought to really try to
understand and unpack thepatterns behind the crisis
response.
And now, as owner of my ownagency for the last 18 years,
trying to put all of those sideby side and asking myself what's
the same about each of these?
(04:23):
And if I were trying to teach anew person to the craft, how
would I begin to break down andhelp them understand?
Here are the patterns and thethings that you look for in
every crisis event, and so thatjourney led me to the creation
of the book, which took sevenyears to write.
Tom Mueller (04:44):
Wow, that's a labor of love.
Marc Mullen (04:47):
A lot of data crunching.
Tom Mueller (04:50):
Or torture.
Jeff Hahn (05:00):
Yeah, in fact I used my graduate program at Texas
State University.
I wrote a capstone paper thereabout the structure of a media
interview and just to give yousome sense of the depth I went
into on this, I recorded 505radio interviews, all business
topics on NPR, stripped out allof transcribed and then stripped
out all of the answers.
(05:21):
I didn't care what people said,I was looking for the questions
and through a statisticalanalysis found that reporters
ask six kinds of questions andthey ask them in a predictable
order.
Well, that's the kind ofpattern, especially in a high
(05:43):
stakes engagement like a mediainterview, you want to be able
to assure a client, hey, there'sa method to what you're about
to go through.
Let's train you and get youprepared for that.
I love that we can find thesearchetypes and templates and
patterns.
It really builds a lot ofconfidence in my own consulting
that hey, there is a knownmethod to assess and then
(06:06):
address all kinds of crises.
Tom Mueller (06:09):
Yeah, I love the fact that you're data-driven on
what you've done there and arethere.
Well, I guess, as a formerjournalist, I'm sitting here
thinking well, the top fivequestions have to be who, what,
when, where, why and how.
I can go to six, I guess.
Does that line up with whatyour data shows?
Jeff Hahn (06:31):
It's close, you know all of those things come out.
But when we looked at the modelthat formed up out of that data
analysis, we found that aninterview typically goes like
this there's an opener questionTell us what's happening.
There's a probe that gets alittle bit more difficult to
respond to.
Then there's a clarifying typequestion.
(06:52):
From there the questions reallykind of veer into different
directions.
But you can almost alwaysexpect a reporter to use a
phrase like many people aresaying that this is true or
that's not true.
What do you say?
That's a proxy question.
Then you're going to get ahypothetical and then a wrap up
(07:14):
and almost always you're goingto get is there anything else
you would like to add?
And that question, by the way,is the one where I've had to
coach a lot of my clients overthe years through.
I said please do not miss thechance to nail the end.
Stick that landing, because ifyou just say nope, that's got it
(07:36):
, you'll miss the opportunity togive them your best quote.
Tom Mueller (07:40):
I think I have the most fun with that question in
training sessions because itsurprises most executives who
I'm working with.
But you're spot on, this isit's the softball question, so
just use it as an opportunity toreiterate that key message.
Exactly Right, and a lot ofgood reasons for that Great.
Jeff Hahn (08:02):
So that pattern of a media interview goes all the way
back through the book as Ithink about.
Well, what's the pattern behindthe creation of a rapid
response team?
What are the roles that oughtto be repeated?
What's the pattern behindmessaging?
What about, then, messengers?
Is there a pattern or a method?
Then, of course, what about theoutreach itself?
(08:24):
I complete it by calling thatthe method.
So the model really shapes upas a 3M message, messenger and
method.
Kind of easy to learn and ittakes some of the mystery out of
this craft called crises.
Marc Mullen (08:41):
So what you're talking about explains why it
always seems like the samethings break in a response.
So what you're saying is that'sbecause the same things are
done, the same assumptions aremade, the same actions are
planned and so on.
So to really streamline ourresponse capability, we probably
need to take a hard look atthat, take a hard look at what's
(09:03):
always happening.
That's not working.
But it seems like so many times, particularly in incident
response, what everybody wantsmore than anything else is to go
home.
They just want to be done withit.
So it's hard to get that sortof review afterwards.
And I look at your list of yourexamples and I know a couple of
these examples you give in yourbook.
(09:24):
That organization has dealtwith this before.
Jeff Hahn (09:29):
Oh, absolutely.
Marc Mullen (09:30):
They made the same mistake.
Jeff Hahn (09:32):
Mark, you just hit a great one on the head.
Everybody wants to go home,they want to get back to normal.
That's the driving motive thatwe have to recognize as the
background pattern that'shappening, and the famous quote
you guys will remember it, TonyHayward from British Petroleum
I'd like my life back.
(09:52):
Oh no, it's fantastic for us asstudents of the craft.
But, my goodness, it speaksdirectly to your point, Mark,
that people want desperately toget back to normal, to get rid
of this dissonance.
Tom Mueller (10:09):
Yeah, and there's a whole backstory to that quote
of why he said that in thecontext that he was in, and it
comes back to the fact that theCEO was out there on the beach
talking to a group of fishermenand he was tired and he
(10:29):
shouldn't have been there in thefirst place and he was.
You know, he was out thereunescorted by a company media
person, and so you know, there'sjust so many little things
lined up for him to fail in that, and so it's yeah, absolutely,
it's a.
It's a quote that just lives ininfamy now for me now, but the
(10:57):
stronger message behind thatthat I always pull out is what's
the proper role for your CEO ina crisis situation?
And, jeff, I want to hit youwith that Mark, do you have
something else you want to throwin?
Marc Mullen (11:06):
I was just saying.
It's not good to justify thestatement by saying you wanted
to be at a yacht race.
Tom Mueller (11:14):
Never a good look.
Jeff Hahn (11:16):
Not a good look, not a good look.
Marc Mullen (11:17):
Great subheading.
Jeff Hahn (11:22):
But, tom, your question is a really good one
because there is a role.
But what I talk about in thepattern of messenger in the book
is the best possible role for aCEO.
It may not be to be the firstone on the scene.
Although there are certainindustries I'll take airlines
(11:43):
there is an expectation that theCEO is quick to communicate.
But you have other options andwhat I found in exploring each
of the three M's messagemessenger method of delivery is
there's options in every one ofthese cases and I think that,
(12:04):
depending on the type of crisisthat you're faced with, you can
choose a communications person,a subject matter expert.
You can even choose outsidethird party expertise that
allows you to shape a narrative.
Ceos certainly can play a goodrole, but I suggest, at the
(12:25):
right time in the right way, notas the first knee-jerk response
, let's get the CEO in a pressconference and say you're sorry,
it's just the worst advice everbecause it's not thoughtful.
Tom Mueller (12:41):
Well, and one of the risks you run there is if
your CEO is leading and outfront and makes a mistake, as
Tony Hayward did, where do yougo from there, Right?
So much better to have you knowyour CEO.
You know, step up and make thecommitment on behalf of the
company that all the resourceswe need to address this
(13:04):
situation will be applied, andI'm going to be watching this
closely.
Let me introduce you to theteam who's going to be running
this response day to day right.
Step back, get out of the way.
Jeff Hahn (13:19):
Yeah, and be a CEO to operate that.
Let your experts take the stage.
Tom Mueller (13:29):
I'm curious, jeff, when you're you know, when
you're coaching with the 3Mmodel there is, you know what's
how does that play into anactual sort of coaching session
with an executive?
Are they sort of open, you know, to that, or how do you roll
(13:49):
that in sort of easily?
Jeff Hahn (13:57):
roll that in sort of easily.
Well, back to the pattern idea.
What I talk about in Show Em isthat messages can take on
unique shapes depending on thecircumstances, and what I found
in my research work is thatthere really are 16 message
types that you can choose from,those 16 roughly split in half,
(14:18):
and it depends.
The choice that you makedepends on a single question Are
you going to accept blame?
If you're going to accept blameof some degree, then you have
eight message types or eightmessage options to choose from.
If you're not, you have anothereight options, and so it's in
(14:40):
that pattern and we find thoseoptions that you can apply then.
Now let's take a uniquesituation.
Where does your intuition,where does your instinct take
you?
You're going to reject blame.
You're going to accept it.
Okay, now let's work downthrough the flow chart of
options.
That's how I do that coaching.
Tom Mueller (15:01):
Yeah, do you, mark?
I'm just jumping back to kindof your area here on.
You know crisis plandevelopment and you know, jeff,
you've got some interestingoptions laid out here.
How does that translate?
If you know, if a team ispreparing a crisis management
plan, is this a way to developsome, you know, template key
(15:25):
messages to include in your plan, or how would you recommend it
fit with that?
Jeff Hahn (15:29):
Yeah, typically there's a known universe of
situations.
I characterize those reallyinto three categories.
There are reputation incidentsMaybe there's a dozen of those
that I've categorized.
There are safety situations,emergency situations, explosions
(15:54):
, plane crashes, and so when youstart to map all of those
possible incidents, you candevelop a fairly good inventory
of options based on the messagechoice.
So for this incident, optionone is x, option two is y, and
that gives you the opportunitynot to try to overload it.
(16:14):
I think all of us here havebeen involved in exercises where
we've developed a 73-pagethree-ring binder that will
never be visited or looked atagain All things that are
worthless over time.
So when I teach a crisisplanning class or seminar, my
(16:39):
promise to those who attend isthat you're going to get a
complete crisis plan on an 11 by17 piece of paper.
Tom Mueller (16:48):
Wow, okay that's impressive.
Marc Mullen (16:52):
It's interesting what you said about being
prepared with this messagingabout it was your fault or
you're accepting blame.
I think you better have thatsheet ready.
You better have thosestatements ready, because if you
want to see a corporateattorney turn white, just give
him eight options on how to sayit was all your fault.
Yeah, so it's a challenge, butagain, some of that is there's a
(17:20):
reality where you look at aspecific scenario and say it's
very obviously something that wedid or didn't do, but even at
that, so much of the time youdon't know that until a year
later you just don't know what'scoming.
So that's an interestingchallenge as to how do you
(17:43):
actually address the fact thatyou're responding aggressively
to an incident that may not evenbe yours or your fault, and how
do you say you're sorry withoutaccepting blame, when everybody
thinks that if you say weapologize for this event to
recur, the populace says oh see,you are admitting it's your
fault, but I'm sorry is waydifferent from it's my fault.
Jeff Hahn (18:05):
Completely right, mark, and I go into a little bit
of that.
I found that there are eightcomponents to a complete apology
.
It's an academic exercise insome respects, but it's an
interesting enough device, thisthing called the apology, that
it's worthy of some examination.
I think that you can usestrategic ambiguity as your
(18:30):
friend and circumstancetypically as your scapegoat, to
keep you just close enough andempathetic enough to a situation
without pulling yourself intoliability, and being in good
proximity and understanding howpeople are feeling and talking
(18:53):
about.
I understand how people feelthat's not an admission of guilt
.
Feel that's not an admission ofguilt, that's not an admission
of blame, but it is a human andempathetic response that creates
credibility and that's the waythat you can attach yourself as
a spokesperson or a brand to anevent without getting pulled
into the deep dark trolling thatwould happen to you on social
(19:18):
media.
Marc Mullen (19:19):
Right as you're reciting those words and
picturing saying that to my wifewhen I come home late from a
meeting.
See how those elements of anapology would work on a domestic
front.
Jeff Hahn (19:31):
Yeah, I'm anxious to hear how it works for you, yeah.
Marc Mullen (19:34):
I'm going to have to replay it back from the video
.
When we're done with this, I'lllet you know.
Tom Mueller (19:39):
Right, yeah, you might think about some bridging
techniques in there too, mark,you know.
Marc Mullen (19:45):
There may be time to send in a subordinate.
True enough.
Jeff Hahn (19:48):
You could use another spokesperson.
Marc Mullen (19:50):
A subject matter expert.
Tom Mueller (19:53):
Well, Jeff, I know you jump into some sort of
tactical level discussions inthe book.
I'm curious about kind of twoareas that you talk about.
One is the makeup of a rapidresponse team and then the other
is who belongs in a war roomand who doesn't.
So walk us through your take onthe rapid response team and how
(20:16):
you see that being set up.
Jeff Hahn (20:19):
Mark mentioned earlier your corporate lawyers
or general counsel.
They certainly have a role onthe team, but I don't think that
lawyers can lead a rapidresponse team very effectively,
(20:39):
can lead a rapid response teamvery effectively.
They're trained inargumentation and they're also
trained in creating as littleliability as possible.
So their default is to nocomment oftentimes, or we'll
have something to say once weget to court.
Well geez, the court of apublic opinion has already
rendered judgment when thathappens.
So I think when we look atrapid response teams, we want to
(21:02):
configure it around a tablewith these characters.
Certainly legal counsel's there, but on the side of the table,
at the end of the table, is whatI refer to as the chief
decision maker, kind ofrecalling what we just talked
about.
Oftentimes people assume that'sthe CEO.
Maybe not.
Maybe there's a betterexecutive who works better in
(21:24):
this situation, and you knowit's gonna be a situation at any
given time where Murphy's Lawtakes over.
Of course it should be thisperson, but they're hiking in
the Himalayas.
So on the other end of thetable you need a deputy chief
decision maker, someone who canapprove communications, can
(21:48):
muster additional subject matterexperts around the table as
needed.
So those are the anchors of theteam Chief decision maker,
deputy chief decision maker.
Around the other parts of thetable you have rapid response
team coordinator, someone whocan really keep track.
This is a person who isfantastic at project managing
(22:10):
and sorting and prioritizing.
You need that person to helpyou keep track of all the
different ideas and situationsflying around.
Then, of course, yourcommunications manager, and I
think there's two roles to playwhen it comes to comms.
The senior communicationsmanager really has to take the
(22:32):
viewpoint, has to put her or hiseyes in the minds of the
audience.
What are stakeholders thinking?
How are they feeling?
That's a different kind ofexercise than the other
communications person who's okay.
I got to go set up a corral forthe press and manage that
(22:54):
situation, so I like those kindsof roles for communications.
Then, of course, you've gotyour subject matter experts as
needed.
That might be HR, it, if it's acyber attack facilities.
I did a lot of consulting for auniversity for several years
and transportation was always atthe table, and so you'll find
(23:16):
those subject matter experts asthe situation warrants.
But that's generally the makeup.
I count that as eight peoplemaximum to really facilitate
rapid decision making and withthat, Waram you're describing is
specifically for communications.
Marc Mullen (23:33):
That's not the physical response.
So how do you integrate withthe physical response and the
decisions they're making in thatother room?
Jeff Hahn (23:44):
Yeah, good distinction, mark, because
there's incident management orcrisis management, and there's
crisis communication.
So what I just described wasthe comms part of it.
What I just described was thecomms part of it.
(24:06):
Deputy decision maker is oftenthe person who's integrated and
connected to incident responseand bringing new information in.
Of course, when crises getrolling and really start to
bloom your communications,people are going to be tracking
social media and the narrativesthat are being set into place
through those channels, soeverybody's going to probably
have some inputs around thetable and, of course, everyone
has a phone, so they're going tobe getting lots of texts too.
(24:30):
Managing that that's adiscipline.
It takes some practice that is.
Tom Mueller (24:40):
That's a discipline .
It takes some practice.
Yeah, jeff.
The other follow-up there wasabout the war room.
So similar concept here withthe rapid response team and the
war room.
Again, we're talking about awar room for the communication
side of the response.
Jeff Hahn (24:52):
Yeah, what's your recommendations there be careful
(25:12):
of is not to overload it.
You can overload a war roomwith lawyers and I have seen
that have a really deleteriouseffect on decision making
because they are voicing all thethings that could go wrong
rather than leaders.
I had one experience where itwas a gas company.
(25:37):
They had a leak occur in one oftheir lines.
That leak developed into a gasbubble underneath the home.
It blew the home up when alight switch came on.
There were two fatalities and,of course, damage to other
structures around that littleneighborhood.
(25:58):
And in the war room were fiveattorneys.
But it was the seniorcommunications leader who
finally said how much more of acheck will we write if we
actually act like we're human?
And in that moment thoselawyers stepped back away from
the table and said it won't beany difference or it'll be very
(26:23):
little difference.
So okay, let's be human.
And that created theopportunity then to say how are
we, as high integrityindividuals, expected to react
here?
High integrity individualsexpected to react here?
It's one of those reallyinteresting times when there was
an overload and a very smartcomment helped bring balance to
(26:43):
it.
So I think as you load your warrooms up, there are those who
are experienced enough to knowtheir roles when to contribute
and when to listen also takespractice, because you're going
to have people with strongopinions who all of a sudden
(27:06):
want to say, well, we should dothis.
That's not a good deliberation.
You have got to really thinkabout it from all of the experts
around the table it from all ofthe experts around the table.
Marc Mullen (27:20):
It seems like a lot of times, when we walk into a
response which, by definition,is unexpected, you need to
address the core reason whyyou're there, and a lot of times
we forget that our core reasonis not to get back to normal,
because if we try to get back tonormal, everything you say
would be sufficient ifeverything was normal.
But things aren't normal, so youjust have to begin to
(27:42):
understand.
It Sounds like what happenedthere is somebody had to toss
cold water in the attorney'sfaces and say you're going to
pay.
So now how do we protect thereputation of the organization
while you do your lawyer stuffand just step back and let the
communicators handle it?
But I've seen that a lot to mea lot of times when the initial
(28:03):
statements if you form unifiedcommand, all the initial
statements sound so good and sonoble, but what they should be
saying is this is bad and we'redoing the best we can to stop it
and there's nobody else thatcan be in this room that can do
better than the people we havehere, or something like that.
Jeff Hahn (28:19):
I love what you said, mark, and I think it's exactly
right.
This people are so, sodesperate to get back to normal.
They'll even say things in awarm room like how do we make
this go away?
Which that is an expression ofa dream.
It's not real.
We have to walk through theseone step at a time and not get
(28:41):
too far ahead of ourselves.
Staying in the present is areally that's a hard to develop
skill.
Marc Mullen (28:46):
Yeah, well, if you want to get now, I have a
hurricane.
You have to go through thehurricane.
Jeff Hahn (28:50):
Absolutely right yeah .
Tom Mueller (28:52):
Well, jeff, I just have one more question for you.
Can you guess, what thatquestion might be?
Jeff Hahn (29:00):
Nope, I'm ready to go .
Tom Mueller (29:03):
Anything else you'd like to add?
Marc Mullen (29:06):
I just want to get out of here.
Jeff Hahn (29:10):
I appreciate it very much and it's fun to spend time
with you all to think throughthese hidden patterns.
I always believe that when itcomes to crises, good judgment
and high integrity are reallythe hidden variables that we
depend on so much.
What we should appreciate moreoften, and what I coach my
(29:32):
clients on, is that options arebetter than answers.
We don't have all theinformation to get everything
exactly right.
Let's use our message options,our messenger options and our
method of delivery options in asmart combination to move
through one step at a time.
Tom Mueller (29:52):
All right, Jeff.
Thanks so much for taking alittle bit of time to chat with
us about this very interestingconversation, and we very much
appreciate your time today.
Jeff Hahn (30:02):
It's been my pleasure , guys, great to talk to you.
Tom Mueller (30:06):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks again for joining us.
If you'd like to reach out tothe show, then drop me an email
at tom, at leadinginacrisiscom,and we will see you again soon
on another episode.
Take care.
All right, all set.
Hi everyone, and welcome backto the Leading in a Crisis
podcast.
On this podcast, we talk allthings crisis management and we
do that through storytelling andlessons learned to share from
experienced crisis leaders.
Thanks for joining us.
Again today I'm tom mueller,writing shotgun with me again
(00:30):
today my co-host, mark mullen.
Marc Mullen (00:34):
Hello Tom, looking forward to today's session
awesome.
Tom Mueller (00:39):
We've got a very interesting guest with us today.
He is jeff hahn, and Jeff has anew book coming out called
Breaking Bad News and it isfocused on crisis communications
, and Jeff has some kind ofunique offerings in this book we
thought would be interesting tobring up to our listeners.
Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Hahn (01:01):
Tom Mark, great to be with you, really pleased that
you're focused in studying thispart of communications.
It's a craft that mixes someart and science together and it
certainly deserves the attentionyou're giving it.
So thank you.
Tom Mueller (01:16):
Yes, thank you for that.
We're having a lot of fun withit and you know the pool is deep
of interesting people to talkto and, you know, bring out in
this forum and our objectivehere really is just sharing
experiences from people who aresort of long in tooth and have
been through a lot to help theyounger generation that's coming
(01:38):
up, you know, to tap into thatexpertise, share some lessons
learned and and maybe benefittheir own careers as they go
forward.
Jeff, if you don't mind, couldyou take just a minute and
introduce yourself to ouraudience?
Jeff Hahn (01:54):
Oh for sure, Just a little bit about my background
to help set the stage.
I grew up in Motorola.
From a career standpoint, Ispent 15 years in the
semiconductor business and forall of those 15 years I was
actually a member of the crisismanagement situation assessment
(02:14):
team.
At least to everything fromhazardous material spills to
workplace violence andfatalities, to outbreaks,
(02:35):
contagion outbreaks, and evenspend an entire 48 hours in a
bunker over Y2K, If you rememberthat that was actually the
thing.
worried about it becauseMotorola chips, the
semiconductors with those tinylittle clocks in them, were in
(02:56):
billions of differentapplications.
So it was really enriching fora young communications PR person
to be exposed to all of thosedifferent situations and I came
to fall in love with this partof the whole craft of PR.
Tom Mueller (03:14):
It is fascinating and we learn something new every
day as we go through this.
Each one of us, in our careers,have dealt with different types
of crises and different crisesrequire different skill sets,
but there are some common themesthat go across crisis
(03:40):
situations and I know you tacklesome of those in your book.
One of the things I like aboutthis is that you focus a lot on
case studies and looking at abunch of different incidents
that have happened in recentyears.
So that's kind of a uniquething for me.
But as you think about yourbook and the sweat effort you've
put into that, what's uniqueabout the offering that you're
(04:01):
bringing forward here?
Jeff Hahn (04:03):
Well, in Breaking Bad News, I sought to really try to
understand and unpack thepatterns behind the crisis
response.
And now, as owner of my ownagency for the last 18 years,
trying to put all of those sideby side and asking myself what's
the same about each of these?
(04:23):
And if I were trying to teach anew person to the craft, how
would I begin to break down andhelp them understand?
Here are the patterns and thethings that you look for in
every crisis event, and so thatjourney led me to the creation
of the book, which took sevenyears to write.
Tom Mueller (04:44):
Wow, that's a labor of love.
Marc Mullen (04:47):
A lot of data crunching.
Tom Mueller (04:50):
Or torture.
Jeff Hahn (05:00):
Yeah, in fact I used my graduate program at Texas
State University.
I wrote a capstone paper thereabout the structure of a media
interview and just to give yousome sense of the depth I went
into on this, I recorded 505radio interviews, all business
topics on NPR, stripped out allof transcribed and then stripped
out all of the answers.
(05:21):
I didn't care what people said,I was looking for the questions
and through a statisticalanalysis found that reporters
ask six kinds of questions andthey ask them in a predictable
order.
Well, that's the kind ofpattern, especially in a high
(05:43):
stakes engagement like a mediainterview, you want to be able
to assure a client, hey, there'sa method to what you're about
to go through.
Let's train you and get youprepared for that.
I love that we can find thesearchetypes and templates and
patterns.
It really builds a lot ofconfidence in my own consulting
that hey, there is a knownmethod to assess and then
(06:06):
address all kinds of crises.
Tom Mueller (06:09):
Yeah, I love the fact that you're data-driven on
what you've done there and arethere.
Well, I guess, as a formerjournalist, I'm sitting here
thinking well, the top fivequestions have to be who, what,
when, where, why and how.
I can go to six, I guess.
Does that line up with whatyour data shows?
Jeff Hahn (06:31):
It's close, you know all of those things come out.
But when we looked at the modelthat formed up out of that data
analysis, we found that aninterview typically goes like
this there's an opener questionTell us what's happening.
There's a probe that gets alittle bit more difficult to
respond to.
Then there's a clarifying typequestion.
(06:52):
From there the questions reallykind of veer into different
directions.
But you can almost alwaysexpect a reporter to use a
phrase like many people aresaying that this is true or
that's not true.
What do you say?
That's a proxy question.
Then you're going to get ahypothetical and then a wrap up
(07:14):
and almost always you're goingto get is there anything else
you would like to add?
And that question, by the way,is the one where I've had to
coach a lot of my clients overthe years through.
I said please do not miss thechance to nail the end.
Stick that landing, because ifyou just say nope, that's got it
(07:36):
, you'll miss the opportunity togive them your best quote.
Tom Mueller (07:40):
I think I have the most fun with that question in
training sessions because itsurprises most executives who
I'm working with.
But you're spot on, this isit's the softball question, so
just use it as an opportunity toreiterate that key message.
Exactly Right, and a lot ofgood reasons for that Great.
Jeff Hahn (08:02):
So that pattern of a media interview goes all the way
back through the book as Ithink about.
Well, what's the pattern behindthe creation of a rapid
response team?
What are the roles that oughtto be repeated?
What's the pattern behindmessaging?
What about, then, messengers?
Is there a pattern or a method?
Then, of course, what about theoutreach itself?
(08:24):
I complete it by calling thatthe method.
So the model really shapes upas a 3M message, messenger and
method.
Kind of easy to learn and ittakes some of the mystery out of
this craft called crises.
Marc Mullen (08:41):
So what you're talking about explains why it
always seems like the samethings break in a response.
So what you're saying is that'sbecause the same things are
done, the same assumptions aremade, the same actions are
planned and so on.
So to really streamline ourresponse capability, we probably
need to take a hard look atthat, take a hard look at what's
(09:03):
always happening.
That's not working.
But it seems like so many times, particularly in incident
response, what everybody wantsmore than anything else is to go
home.
They just want to be done withit.
So it's hard to get that sortof review afterwards.
And I look at your list of yourexamples and I know a couple of
these examples you give in yourbook.
(09:24):
That organization has dealtwith this before.
Jeff Hahn (09:29):
Oh, absolutely.
Marc Mullen (09:30):
They made the same mistake.
Jeff Hahn (09:32):
Mark, you just hit a great one on the head.
Everybody wants to go home,they want to get back to normal.
That's the driving motive thatwe have to recognize as the
background pattern that'shappening, and the famous quote
you guys will remember it, TonyHayward from British Petroleum
I'd like my life back.
(09:52):
Oh no, it's fantastic for us asstudents of the craft.
But, my goodness, it speaksdirectly to your point, Mark,
that people want desperately toget back to normal, to get rid
of this dissonance.
Tom Mueller (10:09):
Yeah, and there's a whole backstory to that quote
of why he said that in thecontext that he was in, and it
comes back to the fact that theCEO was out there on the beach
talking to a group of fishermenand he was tired and he
(10:29):
shouldn't have been there in thefirst place and he was.
You know, he was out thereunescorted by a company media
person, and so you know, there'sjust so many little things
lined up for him to fail in that, and so it's yeah, absolutely,
it's a.
It's a quote that just lives ininfamy now for me now, but the
(10:57):
stronger message behind thatthat I always pull out is what's
the proper role for your CEO ina crisis situation?
And, jeff, I want to hit youwith that Mark, do you have
something else you want to throwin?
Marc Mullen (11:06):
I was just saying.
It's not good to justify thestatement by saying you wanted
to be at a yacht race.
Tom Mueller (11:14):
Never a good look.
Jeff Hahn (11:16):
Not a good look, not a good look.
Marc Mullen (11:17):
Great subheading.
Jeff Hahn (11:22):
But, tom, your question is a really good one
because there is a role.
But what I talk about in thepattern of messenger in the book
is the best possible role for aCEO.
It may not be to be the firstone on the scene.
Although there are certainindustries I'll take airlines
(11:43):
there is an expectation that theCEO is quick to communicate.
But you have other options andwhat I found in exploring each
of the three M's messagemessenger method of delivery is
there's options in every one ofthese cases and I think that,
(12:04):
depending on the type of crisisthat you're faced with, you can
choose a communications person,a subject matter expert.
You can even choose outsidethird party expertise that
allows you to shape a narrative.
Ceos certainly can play a goodrole, but I suggest, at the
(12:25):
right time in the right way, notas the first knee-jerk response
, let's get the CEO in a pressconference and say you're sorry,
it's just the worst advice everbecause it's not thoughtful.
Tom Mueller (12:41):
Well, and one of the risks you run there is if
your CEO is leading and outfront and makes a mistake, as
Tony Hayward did, where do yougo from there, Right?
So much better to have you knowyour CEO.
You know, step up and make thecommitment on behalf of the
company that all the resourceswe need to address this
(13:04):
situation will be applied, andI'm going to be watching this
closely.
Let me introduce you to theteam who's going to be running
this response day to day right.
Step back, get out of the way.
Jeff Hahn (13:19):
Yeah, and be a CEO to operate that.
Let your experts take the stage.
Tom Mueller (13:29):
I'm curious, jeff, when you're you know, when
you're coaching with the 3Mmodel there is, you know what's
how does that play into anactual sort of coaching session
with an executive?
Are they sort of open, you know, to that, or how do you roll
(13:49):
that in sort of easily?
Jeff Hahn (13:57):
roll that in sort of easily.
Well, back to the pattern idea.
What I talk about in Show Em isthat messages can take on
unique shapes depending on thecircumstances, and what I found
in my research work is thatthere really are 16 message
types that you can choose from,those 16 roughly split in half,
(14:18):
and it depends.
The choice that you makedepends on a single question Are
you going to accept blame?
If you're going to accept blameof some degree, then you have
eight message types or eightmessage options to choose from.
If you're not, you have anothereight options, and so it's in
(14:40):
that pattern and we find thoseoptions that you can apply then.
Now let's take a uniquesituation.
Where does your intuition,where does your instinct take
you?
You're going to reject blame.
You're going to accept it.
Okay, now let's work downthrough the flow chart of
options.
That's how I do that coaching.
Tom Mueller (15:01):
Yeah, do you, mark?
I'm just jumping back to kindof your area here on.
You know crisis plandevelopment and you know, jeff,
you've got some interestingoptions laid out here.
How does that translate?
If you know, if a team ispreparing a crisis management
plan, is this a way to developsome, you know, template key
(15:25):
messages to include in your plan, or how would you recommend it
fit with that?
Jeff Hahn (15:29):
Yeah, typically there's a known universe of
situations.
I characterize those reallyinto three categories.
There are reputation incidentsMaybe there's a dozen of those
that I've categorized.
There are safety situations,emergency situations, explosions
(15:54):
, plane crashes, and so when youstart to map all of those
possible incidents, you candevelop a fairly good inventory
of options based on the messagechoice.
So for this incident, optionone is x, option two is y, and
that gives you the opportunitynot to try to overload it.
(16:14):
I think all of us here havebeen involved in exercises where
we've developed a 73-pagethree-ring binder that will
never be visited or looked atagain All things that are
worthless over time.
So when I teach a crisisplanning class or seminar, my
(16:39):
promise to those who attend isthat you're going to get a
complete crisis plan on an 11 by17 piece of paper.
Tom Mueller (16:48):
Wow, okay that's impressive.
Marc Mullen (16:52):
It's interesting what you said about being
prepared with this messagingabout it was your fault or
you're accepting blame.
I think you better have thatsheet ready.
You better have thosestatements ready, because if you
want to see a corporateattorney turn white, just give
him eight options on how to sayit was all your fault.
Yeah, so it's a challenge, butagain, some of that is there's a
(17:20):
reality where you look at aspecific scenario and say it's
very obviously something that wedid or didn't do, but even at
that, so much of the time youdon't know that until a year
later you just don't know what'scoming.
So that's an interestingchallenge as to how do you
(17:43):
actually address the fact thatyou're responding aggressively
to an incident that may not evenbe yours or your fault, and how
do you say you're sorry withoutaccepting blame, when everybody
thinks that if you say weapologize for this event to
recur, the populace says oh see,you are admitting it's your
fault, but I'm sorry is waydifferent from it's my fault.
Jeff Hahn (18:05):
Completely right, mark, and I go into a little bit
of that.
I found that there are eightcomponents to a complete apology
.
It's an academic exercise insome respects, but it's an
interesting enough device, thisthing called the apology, that
it's worthy of some examination.
I think that you can usestrategic ambiguity as your
(18:30):
friend and circumstancetypically as your scapegoat, to
keep you just close enough andempathetic enough to a situation
without pulling yourself intoliability, and being in good
proximity and understanding howpeople are feeling and talking
(18:53):
about.
I understand how people feelthat's not an admission of guilt
.
Feel that's not an admission ofguilt, that's not an admission
of blame, but it is a human andempathetic response that creates
credibility and that's the waythat you can attach yourself as
a spokesperson or a brand to anevent without getting pulled
into the deep dark trolling thatwould happen to you on social
(19:18):
media.
Marc Mullen (19:19):
Right as you're reciting those words and
picturing saying that to my wifewhen I come home late from a
meeting.
See how those elements of anapology would work on a domestic
front.
Jeff Hahn (19:31):
Yeah, I'm anxious to hear how it works for you, yeah.
Marc Mullen (19:34):
I'm going to have to replay it back from the video
.
When we're done with this, I'lllet you know.
Tom Mueller (19:39):
Right, yeah, you might think about some bridging
techniques in there too, mark,you know.
Marc Mullen (19:45):
There may be time to send in a subordinate.
True enough.
Jeff Hahn (19:48):
You could use another spokesperson.
Marc Mullen (19:50):
A subject matter expert.
Tom Mueller (19:53):
Well, Jeff, I know you jump into some sort of
tactical level discussions inthe book.
I'm curious about kind of twoareas that you talk about.
One is the makeup of a rapidresponse team and then the other
is who belongs in a war roomand who doesn't.
So walk us through your take onthe rapid response team and how
(20:16):
you see that being set up.
Jeff Hahn (20:19):
Mark mentioned earlier your corporate lawyers
or general counsel.
They certainly have a role onthe team, but I don't think that
lawyers can lead a rapidresponse team very effectively,
(20:39):
can lead a rapid response teamvery effectively.
They're trained inargumentation and they're also
trained in creating as littleliability as possible.
So their default is to nocomment oftentimes, or we'll
have something to say once weget to court.
Well geez, the court of apublic opinion has already
rendered judgment when thathappens.
So I think when we look atrapid response teams, we want to
(21:02):
configure it around a tablewith these characters.
Certainly legal counsel's there, but on the side of the table,
at the end of the table, is whatI refer to as the chief
decision maker, kind ofrecalling what we just talked
about.
Oftentimes people assume that'sthe CEO.
Maybe not.
Maybe there's a betterexecutive who works better in
(21:24):
this situation, and you knowit's gonna be a situation at any
given time where Murphy's Lawtakes over.
Of course it should be thisperson, but they're hiking in
the Himalayas.
So on the other end of thetable you need a deputy chief
decision maker, someone who canapprove communications, can
(21:48):
muster additional subject matterexperts around the table as
needed.
So those are the anchors of theteam Chief decision maker,
deputy chief decision maker.
Around the other parts of thetable you have rapid response
team coordinator, someone whocan really keep track.
This is a person who isfantastic at project managing
(22:10):
and sorting and prioritizing.
You need that person to helpyou keep track of all the
different ideas and situationsflying around.
Then, of course, yourcommunications manager, and I
think there's two roles to playwhen it comes to comms.
The senior communicationsmanager really has to take the
(22:32):
viewpoint, has to put her or hiseyes in the minds of the
audience.
What are stakeholders thinking?
How are they feeling?
That's a different kind ofexercise than the other
communications person who's okay.
I got to go set up a corral forthe press and manage that
(22:54):
situation, so I like those kindsof roles for communications.
Then, of course, you've gotyour subject matter experts as
needed.
That might be HR, it, if it's acyber attack facilities.
I did a lot of consulting for auniversity for several years
and transportation was always atthe table, and so you'll find
(23:16):
those subject matter experts asthe situation warrants.
But that's generally the makeup.
I count that as eight peoplemaximum to really facilitate
rapid decision making and withthat, Waram you're describing is
specifically for communications.
Marc Mullen (23:33):
That's not the physical response.
So how do you integrate withthe physical response and the
decisions they're making in thatother room?
Jeff Hahn (23:44):
Yeah, good distinction, mark, because
there's incident management orcrisis management, and there's
crisis communication.
So what I just described wasthe comms part of it.
What I just described was thecomms part of it.
(24:06):
Deputy decision maker is oftenthe person who's integrated and
connected to incident responseand bringing new information in.
Of course, when crises getrolling and really start to
bloom your communications,people are going to be tracking
social media and the narrativesthat are being set into place
through those channels, soeverybody's going to probably
have some inputs around thetable and, of course, everyone
has a phone, so they're going tobe getting lots of texts too.
(24:30):
Managing that that's adiscipline.
It takes some practice that is.
Tom Mueller (24:40):
That's a discipline .
It takes some practice.
Yeah, jeff.
The other follow-up there wasabout the war room.
So similar concept here withthe rapid response team and the
war room.
Again, we're talking about awar room for the communication
side of the response.
Jeff Hahn (24:52):
Yeah, what's your recommendations there be careful
(25:12):
of is not to overload it.
You can overload a war roomwith lawyers and I have seen
that have a really deleteriouseffect on decision making
because they are voicing all thethings that could go wrong
rather than leaders.
I had one experience where itwas a gas company.
(25:37):
They had a leak occur in one oftheir lines.
That leak developed into a gasbubble underneath the home.
It blew the home up when alight switch came on.
There were two fatalities and,of course, damage to other
structures around that littleneighborhood.
(25:58):
And in the war room were fiveattorneys.
But it was the seniorcommunications leader who
finally said how much more of acheck will we write if we
actually act like we're human?
And in that moment thoselawyers stepped back away from
the table and said it won't beany difference or it'll be very
(26:23):
little difference.
So okay, let's be human.
And that created theopportunity then to say how are
we, as high integrityindividuals, expected to react
here?
High integrity individualsexpected to react here?
It's one of those reallyinteresting times when there was
an overload and a very smartcomment helped bring balance to
(26:43):
it.
So I think as you load your warrooms up, there are those who
are experienced enough to knowtheir roles when to contribute
and when to listen also takespractice, because you're going
to have people with strongopinions who all of a sudden
(27:06):
want to say, well, we should dothis.
That's not a good deliberation.
You have got to really thinkabout it from all of the experts
around the table it from all ofthe experts around the table.
Marc Mullen (27:20):
It seems like a lot of times, when we walk into a
response which, by definition,is unexpected, you need to
address the core reason whyyou're there, and a lot of times
we forget that our core reasonis not to get back to normal,
because if we try to get back tonormal, everything you say
would be sufficient ifeverything was normal.
But things aren't normal, so youjust have to begin to
(27:42):
understand.
It Sounds like what happenedthere is somebody had to toss
cold water in the attorney'sfaces and say you're going to
pay.
So now how do we protect thereputation of the organization
while you do your lawyer stuffand just step back and let the
communicators handle it?
But I've seen that a lot to mea lot of times when the initial
(28:03):
statements if you form unifiedcommand, all the initial
statements sound so good and sonoble, but what they should be
saying is this is bad and we'redoing the best we can to stop it
and there's nobody else thatcan be in this room that can do
better than the people we havehere, or something like that.
Jeff Hahn (28:19):
I love what you said, mark, and I think it's exactly
right.
This people are so, sodesperate to get back to normal.
They'll even say things in awarm room like how do we make
this go away?
Which that is an expression ofa dream.
It's not real.
We have to walk through theseone step at a time and not get
(28:41):
too far ahead of ourselves.
Staying in the present is areally that's a hard to develop
skill.
Marc Mullen (28:46):
Yeah, well, if you want to get now, I have a
hurricane.
You have to go through thehurricane.
Jeff Hahn (28:50):
Absolutely right yeah .
Tom Mueller (28:52):
Well, jeff, I just have one more question for you.
Can you guess, what thatquestion might be?
Jeff Hahn (29:00):
Nope, I'm ready to go .
Tom Mueller (29:03):
Anything else you'd like to add?
Marc Mullen (29:06):
I just want to get out of here.
Jeff Hahn (29:10):
I appreciate it very much and it's fun to spend time
with you all to think throughthese hidden patterns.
I always believe that when itcomes to crises, good judgment
and high integrity are reallythe hidden variables that we
depend on so much.
What we should appreciate moreoften, and what I coach my
(29:32):
clients on, is that options arebetter than answers.
We don't have all theinformation to get everything
exactly right.
Let's use our message options,our messenger options and our
method of delivery options in asmart combination to move
through one step at a time.
Tom Mueller (29:52):
All right, Jeff.
Thanks so much for taking alittle bit of time to chat with
us about this very interestingconversation, and we very much
appreciate your time today.
Jeff Hahn (30:02):
It's been my pleasure , guys, great to talk to you.
Tom Mueller (30:06):
And that's going to do it for this episode of the
Leading in a Crisis podcast.
Thanks again for joining us.
If you'd like to reach out tothe show, then drop me an email
at tom, at leadinginacrisiscom,and we will see you again soon
on another episode.
Take care.
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