June 4, 2024 • 31 mins
Discover the truth about trust within your organization and how it might be holding you back. Our guest, Cory Scheer, founder and CEO of TrustCentric Consulting, joins us to share groundbreaking insights from his book "Closing the Trust Gap." He reveals the jarring reality that 51% of frontline employees do not trust their leaders and the profound impact this has on operational efficiency, employee retention, productivity, and advocacy. You’ll learn why many organizations are like aircraft flying with one engine out and how character and competence are essential for building trust.
Cory helps us navigate the complex landscape of trust perception, where a staggering 31% gap exists between how leaders perceive their trustworthiness versus their employees’ views. We explore the emotional barriers that prevent leaders from acknowledging and addressing trust issues, such as shame and embarrassment. Cory also offers a ray of hope, showing how new leaders or those in new leadership seasons can seize the opportunity for a cultural reset and foster a healthier work environment through honest assessments and courageous actions.
Lastly, Cory introduces the concept of the "trust proposition," a critical framework for integrating trust and value propositions to achieve customer loyalty and organizational success. He emphasizes actionable strategies for leaders to enhance trust, focusing on competency and care. By addressing real problems within teams and creating a common language and commitment around trust, organizations can significantly improve creativity, engagement, and overall workplace culture. Tune in to transform your understanding of trust and discover how to build a thriving, trustworthy organization.
Connect with Cory:
Cory Scheer | LinkedIn
Cory Scheer | Email
TrustCentric Consulting | Website
Closing the Trust Gap | Book
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For more information visit https://leadwell.com
The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.
In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.
Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...
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Episode Transcript
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Jon Kidwell (00:00):
How many people on your team trust their leader.
You might be surprised to knowthat 51% of employees do not
trust their leader Over half andit is diminishing.
It's crumbling, and Corey'sresearch data shows it.
Today's guest, corey Shear, isa researcher.
(00:20):
He is founder and CEO ofTrustcentric, a consultancy that
helps organizations close thetrust gap.
That's the name of his book,closing the Trust Gap, and he is
here today to talk about trust,why it's going apart, what we
can do about it and how we, asleaders, can help our teams, our
people, our organizations buildtrust, increase the value in
(00:42):
the organization and in thelives of the people we serve,
and do it well.
Let's dive in with Corey rightnow.
Corey Shearer, my friend, thankyou so much for joining us on
the Leadwell Podcast.
Cory Scheer (00:57):
Thank you, John.
It's great to be with you today.
Really, I'm excited and honoredto be part of the show.
Jon Kidwell (01:03):
Well, since I've met you, I have trusted you.
There's something about it thatI just trust.
I mean, what is that, Corey?
Do you get that often?
Cory Scheer (01:14):
Well, the more I talk about trust, the more I'm
finding people want to talkabout trust with me and that's
really really cool and veryfulfilling and rewarding and it
gives me continued affirmationof the work that I get to do
every day with clients.
So, yes, I love that.
Jon Kidwell (01:33):
Yeah, I mean just from me to you, to everybody
listening.
I think that there's a gooddeal of character and competence
that also come with that, andthat's what we're diving into
today is really closing thistrust gap.
And for those that don't knowthat haven't read the book, but
they need to go read the bookit's a phenomenal book.
Cory Scheer (01:58):
What is the trust gap, corey?
Well, I probably should havemade the gap word plural, but I
thought we would just focus withone.
I mean, the trust gap actuallycontains a lot of potential gaps
and a few that really stand out.
The number one gap is thatwhere an organization could be
compared to where they currentlyare, there is a gap, and that
(02:21):
is there's no organization thathas fully arrived.
No-transcript for the gaps tobe closed.
(02:53):
But more specifically, therewere a couple of research items
from.
I co-authored a national studywith a gentleman by the name of
Kurt Bartolich who runs acompany called Brand Certain and
he invited me to talk about inmy questions on the survey.
He wanted me to talk about theemployee leader trust gap
specifically and a couple of thedata points that came back that
(03:16):
were very alarming.
The first one was 51% offrontline employees don't have a
high level of trust for theirleaders.
So that's a huge trust gap Overhalf right?
Jon Kidwell (03:25):
I heard you say 51% 51%.
Cory Scheer (03:28):
So I mean, imagine if you have, you know, if you
have 500 employees, imagine 250of them showing up every day not
having a high level of trustfor their leaders.
I call that the half-life ofdistrust.
And just the operationalefficiency when you take off
from a runway.
And just the operationalefficiency when you take off
from a runway, and if one ofyour engines were to go out,
(03:48):
what would the pilot do?
There would be an emergencylanding.
Yet on average across allindustries that we evaluated,
that's exactly how companies areoperating.
They're operating with oneengine.
And then they wonder why we havethings like poor retention of
employees or poor productivity,or poor advocacy, or you know,
(04:11):
even to the point where thepeople that we surveyed, they
admitted that just people arelazier and they're not going to
work as hard when they don'ttrust their leaders.
So the effects of this are verysignificant.
And then the second gap in trustthat we saw from the data that
(04:32):
was really what inspired me towrite the book was we found that
leaders typically have a muchhigher perception of
trustworthiness of them thanemployees actually have of them.
And so this interesting gapwhere you may ask a CEO how much
do your employees trust you andthey may say eight out of 10.
And then you go ask thefrontline employees or the
individual contributors and theysay it's more like four out of
(04:54):
10 or five out of 10.
So we dimensionalize that gapand the gap in the perception of
trust between leaders andfrontline employees is 31% on
average.
And so when you dimensionalizethis, when you can look at this
and you can measure it, the goodpart is is that, although it's
difficult to look at initially,it becomes very, very helpful
(05:15):
and then, ultimately, it canbecome hopeful.
If you are willing and if youhave the courage to do something
about it, if you choose toexcuse the data or do nothing
about the data, about thatreality, then you will continue
to get the results that you arecurrently experiencing.
Jon Kidwell (05:33):
I'm curious because you put that out there, it's so
clear, and I know there's astory in the book, but maybe
there's another story.
And I know there's a story inthe book, but maybe there's
another story.
Why wouldn't I want to do that,like if if I, john, I'm sitting
there and you, corey, take thisturn, we do the whole
organization and all of a suddenit's like, oh my goodness, I
(05:57):
thought I was a trustworthy guy.
I thought that we operated withintegrity, I thought that we
did this.
I gave myself a nine out of 10because I am perfect and I come
back and everybody else saysfour out of 10.
Why wouldn't I immediately tryto rectify this?
Cory Scheer (06:11):
I I have I've received a lot of different
responses to that.
Um, I'll answer it, though, formyself, because I've been there
and I've worked with toxicemployees that I cannot figure
out how to wrap my brain aroundwhat the dynamic was occurring
in that team dynamic or thatworkplace dynamic, and, as the
(06:34):
leader of that team, the coreemotion that I experienced and I
know that we all experiencethings differently, but the core
emotion that I was experiencingwas shame, because if I would
have admitted because I had beenwith that team now for a couple
of years, so if I would haveadmitted that we had this
significant trust gap thatneeded to be addressed, that
(06:55):
would have been me saying I haveownership in this, I need to
take responsibility, and for mepersonally, there was a little
bit of shame there andembarrassment, and I think that
that is a that's a reality thatthe longer you are with a team,
the longer you are with anorganization, the harder it is
to admit that something might bewrong as a result of either
(07:19):
your direct leadership orperhaps a lack of addressing
certain things that needed to beaddressed, maybe months or
years ago.
I think that there's a realdynamic.
Interestingly, though, I thinkthat there's an opportunity
where I see from new leaders whoengage with us.
They're new, they don't have alot of things that they're
(07:42):
bringing into the conversation,so they're trying to assess and
get as clear of a picture aspossible.
So when people ask me, who do Itypically work with, I say I
work with two types of clients,typically Number one leaders who
are beginning a new season ofleadership, whether they're
brand new to that position orthey're brand new to that
company or whatever the case maybe.
So they're beginning a newseason or something is going on
(08:05):
within their organization wherethey know that they've got to
make the conscious decision tobegin again.
And that's where, even ifyou've been there five years,
seven years, 10 years, but thereare other indicators or warning
lights going on all over theplace saying you have to reset,
you've got to begin again.
That's the opportunity for anexisting leader to say we need
to reset, you've got to beginagain.
That's the opportunity for anexisting leader to say we need
(08:27):
to reset.
And when you are willing toreset now, you know that you've
got to do a full assessment ofwhat's actually going on within
our workplace culture.
And once you make thatdeclaration, it's amazing how
quickly you can actually move toproductive, generative, future
looking conversations to improveyour overall workplace culture,
health, and that's when thingsget very, very exciting and
(08:50):
hopeful.
Jon Kidwell (08:51):
Yeah, I mean anytime we're taking that step
right and at least to me sittinghere thinking about it, it
feels as though if every singleday, if every single week, the
people around me myself, myorganization are all moving
towards a place where we trusteach other more, where we're
having better dialogue, whereit's healthy in terms of our
(09:12):
relationship, the work we'redoing, the results.
That is going to be one of themost engaging times of work.
You lay out a trust propositionin the book.
Can you explain the trustproposition to everybody that's
listening so we kind of knowwhat are we talking about and in
what direction are we moving?
Cory Scheer (09:30):
Yeah, that's, it's one of them.
It was actually the.
What I was going to originallytitle the book was the trust
proposition, but my wife and herwisdom and her discernment, she
, we, were driving down the road.
Jon Kidwell (09:40):
Everybody needs a good discerner.
Cory Scheer (09:48):
Oh my goodness.
And you know, we were drivingWest on I-70 and I had just had
a conversation with mydevelopmental editor for the
book on the phone and she kindof said, or she after the
conversation, she kind of lookedat me and she said I wonder if
you should call the booksomething different than the
trust proposition.
I was like but like you're, youknow, you're questioning the
title of my book, like it's my,my title.
And she's like well, nobodyknows what the trust proposition
(10:09):
is, yet that's what you're,you're offering that as a
solution to the real problem.
And so I of course said well,now I'm very curious, what are
your thoughts?
And she said well, I think youshould call it closing the trust
gap.
And as soon as she said it,john, I was like oh my gosh.
Jon Kidwell (10:27):
And she had it as clear as what it is today.
Cory Scheer (10:30):
Absolutely.
And she said if I didn't knowyou and if I saw that book title
on the bookshelf, I would buythat book, just because I've
experienced trust gaps indifferent parts of my life,
vocationally or whatever, and soI wouldn't want to know how do
I close the trust gap?
And within the book, the trustproposition is one of the ways
that we do that, and the trustproposition is, of course, a
(10:52):
play on words with the valueproposition.
The value proposition was aterm identified 40 or 50 years
ago by a business leader and hewas basically articulating and
defining this transaction thatoccurs in our mind as consumers
or buyers, when we put forth ourtime or our money in order to
(11:13):
buy something of value.
In our perception, and whatwe're doing there is, we're
taking action on the worth ofsomething.
So worth is a really criticalpart of value proposition.
We assign what the worth ofsomething.
So worth is a really criticalpart of value proposition.
We assign what the worth ofsomething is because if it is
not worth it to us, we will notbuy it or we will not spend time
pursuing it.
So that value proposition isreally critical, and I learned
(11:37):
about value proposition and allof the dynamics in some of my
educational training with myexecutive MBA, so I was familiar
with that phrase.
But I then just had a differentconversation with another leader
when I was doing a lot of mydoctoral work on trust and the
relationship between trust andthen value, and then value and
(11:57):
loyalty, and how trust has toprecede value creation and value
creation has to precede loyaltyfor the consumer.
That was a theoreticalframework that I used some
amazing researchers for mydoctoral work and I used their
framework in order to run mydata through it.
But the idea is well, if thevalue proposition is all about
(12:18):
taking action on the worth ofsomething and If the definition
of trust is that trust is thefirm belief in the truth of
something, so in my mind Ithought, well, what if we
thought about a different typeof a proposition?
What if we talked about thetrust proposition?
And so the trust proposition isnot taking action on the worth
(12:39):
of something.
The trust proposition is takingaction on the truth of
something, taking action on thetruth of something.
So to your earlier question.
One of the reasons why I thinkleaders and teams may have a
difficult time elevating trustto its appropriate priority is
because maybe they don't have ashared framework and
understanding about what trustactually is, and then maybe
(13:00):
their systems and their ethosand maybe their shared
commitments are not pointedtowards taking action.
On the truth of things, maybethey're limiting their efforts
by only taking action on theworth of something.
So the advantage is that mostcompanies are built in a way to
where they're always about valueproposition.
(13:20):
How do we create more value forthe consumer?
But research says is that inorder to maximize value
proposition, you have toincrease trust.
So it's this combination ofliving out your trust
proposition, living out yourvalue proposition and those two
things.
When you think of the companiesthat are, they're seemingly
unstoppable it's because theyhave an incredible value
(13:43):
proposition that is supportedfully by an amazing trust
proposition.
So now the cool part about thiswhole thing is literally last
week I got notification that wetrademarked the trust
proposition and it's now it'sofficial.
So that's been really cool justto continue to be very, very
committed to that terminologyand that kind of approach.
(14:05):
And what it says is that trustdoes not have to remain ethereal
or it doesn't have to remainkind of philosophical or
theoretical, that it's somethingthat it can actually action can
be taken towards it if we arecommitted to the appropriate
model and the priority of doingthat in our day-to-day decisions
as leaders and as teams.
Jon Kidwell (14:31):
I'm holding up something here for those that
are watching online, right, butyou said these three circles,
and it is trust precedes valueand value precedes loyalty.
And if I were to reflect backwhat I just heard, is that not
only for our external valueproposition as organizations,
right?
Whether we're mission-driven,not-for-profit, small business,
big old corporation, whatever itis publicly traded, that value
(14:53):
proposition of what we provide,a service that people want to
engage with us for, is precededby our external trust, like do
they trust us?
Right?
And also, my brain heard man,your value proposition is a
little bit of your external kindof trust measure, or people
engaging with you because theyvalue you and they trust you,
(15:14):
but is the trust proposition alittle bit of my?
This must be true internal tothen get the best of that
external.
Cory Scheer (15:22):
And it aligns with my version of the truth
resonates with their version ofthe truth, and so, as a result
of that, I believe in that,because our truths are similar.
When we believe in somethingthat is true and that aligns
with our own truth, does thatincrease or decrease our value
of them?
It increases that, doesn't it?
(15:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So then our decisions, ourbehaviors, are not just driven
by is it worth it?
Our decisions are informed bydo we trust it?
Yeah, yeah.
So then our decisions, ourbehaviors, are not just driven
by is it worth it?
Our decisions are informed bydo we trust it?
And that is why, and so let'sjust kind of, let's make this
very practical what is, what'sthe name of a brand or a company
that you trust?
Jon Kidwell (16:03):
You just trust them Okay, so they are running
everything that we are doingthis podcast on.
Cory Scheer (16:09):
But if you were to go, I mean I just I just bought
six cell phones for my kids, allApple devices.
Now let me tell you, whenyou're sitting in that cell
phone store getting ready topurchase six, you're like, is
this really worth it?
Yeah, I bet there's no way thatI would spend the money that I
would on those six phones twofor one for my wife and I and
(16:30):
then our four kids.
There's no way that I wouldspend money from purely a value
proposition standpoint.
There are other alternatives.
I can go buy a different kindof a phone.
I can go buy, you know, otheralternatives to the specific
model that I'm looking at.
But it isn't just informed byvalue and that construct of
(16:52):
value.
It's critical and it's not likewe're willing to spend whatever
, but we're willing to spend themoney because we trust that it
will deliver and we trust thatwhat they are about aligns with
what we want to be about as well, and it's the merging of those
two truths.
That's when our value shoots up.
And so, in the same way youknow, obviously as a consumer,
(17:15):
we experienced that.
But think about that internallywith other team members or
leaders or teams that you were apart of where you.
Your value in them is informeddeeply by simply how much you
trust them, which means that youvalue their disagreements, you
value their doubt of certainthings because you know that you
(17:35):
trust that they're coming atthat from a place of respect and
honor and trying to make thingsbetter.
Or you value their reflectionor you value their silence, not
that they're weaponizing theirsilence against you, but because
you trust that they have goodintentions and your truths are
matching.
Jon Kidwell (17:56):
It's playing out in my head in terms of just the
benefit of the doubt that I givea person.
And also, perhaps you've hadthis play out, like I've had
this play out, where sometimesthere's a piece of data or
there's a disagreement, orthere's just this idea that
bubbles up and at some pointit's oh, who said that or where
did this come from?
And they put in that name ofsomebody that you would just go
(18:19):
to the grave over, right, likeyou trust them as much as you
can trust them, and it's like,well, if they said it, it must
be true.
I mean, we've all said thingslike that, right, and this is
exactly what you're talkingabout.
Cory Scheer (18:30):
Yeah, or even you know, if a trusted leader asks
you to do more or do somethingdifferent, you're going to say
yes to that.
If a toxic leader asks you todo more, what are you going to?
Jon Kidwell (18:48):
do with your time.
It's not worth it.
I'm not going to guard it right.
I'm actually I'm going tosecond guess, I'm not going to
give positive intent.
I'm going to, I'm going tothink are they operating in my
best interest or is it in theirbest interest?
Are they doing things for thecompany, or are they doing
things because I'm actuallysetting them up for a political
move that they're trying to make?
All of this stuff goes throughyour head.
Cory Scheer (19:06):
And those are all probably very valid questions,
but, as every time you ask thatquestion without validating in
terms of getting on the samepage with that person, or it's
validated, every time you askthat question, their behaviors
demonstrate that your questionwas the right question.
Now you begin to start seeingthe gap, and that's the whole
premise of the book, and somepeople have asked me well, why
(19:28):
didn't you call it bridging thetrust gap?
It's like I don't want to builda bridge.
Bridges are expensive and theybreak up.
I love it.
Let's close the gap.
The cover of the book has abroken bridge, but it's a play
on.
Like we're not going to build abridge over the bridge, we're
going to close the gap.
Yeah, Like that's the goal.
(19:49):
We got to close the gap.
It's not about building bridges, it's about and that's so so
true that that would.
Jon Kidwell (19:55):
I mean there's tons of places in life where we have
just chasms of division and andit's not just you know this,
this rope bridge or thisstructural bridge, but really
it's what can we do to reconcilethis thing and bring it
together?
Okay, so what gets in the way?
Right, you said if, if we,actually if you, corey, and I,
john, look at the same color andI say that's yellow and you say
(20:20):
no, that's purple, and wedisagree on the truth of
something.
Right, and I use a verymeaningless example.
Unless you and I are LSU Tigerfans, then we're going to go all
up in arms about it, apparently.
But on the whole, that's ameaningless example.
But there are real examples ofwhere what you say is true and
what I think is true are twototally different things.
(20:41):
What else gets in the way oftrust?
Cory Scheer (20:46):
It's a great question and I think the next
thing that I would share is andit goes into the book itself
talks about the structure oftrust.
So this is where, when there isan incomplete understanding of
the structural components oftrust, then we have more trust
dynamics that can occur that arenot positive.
(21:07):
So, for example, we know fromthe research that there are
three primary building blocks ofbuilding trust.
The first one is competency.
That includes technicalcompetency, communication
competency, project managementcompetency, time management
competency, financial competency.
These are all of the thingsthat typically people are hired
to do within a company.
These are your resume skills.
These are all of the thingsthat typically people are hired
(21:27):
to do within a company.
These are your resume skills.
These are the things that youcan build.
You can go get professionaldevelopment, you can get a
different kind of an educationalexperience.
These are the competency, butthey're critical.
But that's only one of thethree building blocks of trust.
Second building block of trustis problem solving.
So problem solving means notonly a proper problem solving
(21:49):
process, that's changemanagement, that's critical
thinking, that's the ability tonavigate through conflict and
resolve it appropriately withhealthy intent, but it's also
the ability to identify problemsbefore they even become a
problem, that we create them asa problem.
So this is that anticipatorythinking about longer term
(22:09):
implications of what we're doingright now, so that we can
prevent those problems fromoccurring.
And then the third buildingblock that is vital, that our
data shows is the mostchallenging building block for
many organizations is thebuilding block of caring for
others.
So this is active listening,appreciative, inquiry, empathy,
sympathy, caring for the needsof the whole person.
(22:31):
So the idea is or what the datasays, is that you may have the
most competent problem solver inthe organization, but if they
don't care about people, theyare breaching trust.
Or you may have the nicestperson with the purest intent,
but if they are not competent, Idon't need the super syrupy,
(22:53):
sweet, nice airline pilot.
I need the respectful airlinepilot that can solve a problem
if we had turbulence, that iscompetent enough to take off and
land my plane.
They don't need to be supernice all of the time.
I need them to have all threeof those building blocks in
order for me to be okay.
And so, in the same way, withina company like this, constant
(23:17):
as a leader now, with thisconstruct of competency, problem
solving and care for others.
Now, instead of me saying Idon't trust that person or I
don't trust that policy orpractice, I can say what is
causing me unrest about thatteam member right now is they
are not identifying the rightproblems to solve.
And as a result of that, theeffect is they are breaking down
(23:39):
trust, or with this particularpolicy or practice that we're
doing, what is causing me angstis that it doesn't demonstrate
care for our other team membersor for our customers, and so,
because of that, I don't trustit, because that doesn't align
with my version of the truth andwhat the truth should be, and
so, as a result of that, weeither can change it or we can
(24:01):
continue to create distrust withthat policy or that practice or
that team member.
So that's where you takesomething ethereal and universal
and you break it down intopieces where you can actually
measure it.
Jon Kidwell (24:15):
And not only measure it like that measurement
, but as you're going throughthat, and for those that think
about courageous conversationsand resolving conflict, and go
back rewind, listen to the wordsthat Corey just shared, because
what that structure did was itactually took a very large
majority, if not all, of theproblems we have with people and
(24:37):
we turned them to the problemsthat we actually have.
Right, the language that youflipped on was, instead of Jim's
, a jerk is.
We are not solving the rightproblems and thus I'm frustrated
with Jim or whatever that mightbe, and in all of those kind of
coaching and teaching and teambuilding and all of us go
through those things and we talkabout.
(24:59):
You know, go, go towards theproblem.
Don't attack the individual.
Do this, do this Because whenwe do, we further diminish trust
in your language and in yourmodel.
You've given us not only theingredients, if you will, those
interrelated pieces, but it alsohelps us move into how do I
(25:19):
actually go after the realproblem that exists?
Cory Scheer (25:23):
And if we don't do that and we're in a leadership
position, guess what?
Every other team member is nowthinking about us.
Position, guess what?
Every other team member is nowthinking about us.
My leader is not competentenough to go have that
conversation because they don'trecognize it.
My leader is not willing tosolve the right problem.
My leader does not care for meenough to be able to go address
(25:44):
this very, very challengingpersonnel dynamic that is
causing distress among all of us.
And so, as a result of that,not only do I not trust that
other person, I don't trust myleader.
And now you have two gaps thatare occurring and the leader is
saying well, but they'retechnically, they're very, very
proficient in what they do orthey're a bulldog when it comes
(26:05):
to problem solving.
The challenge is that you cannotovercompensate with one
building block to make up for adeficiency in another building
block of trust.
You have to have all three.
They have to be strong, andotherwise you begin to have that
wobbly three leg of the stooldynamic.
Making one leg of the stoollonger doesn't actually solve
the problem.
It's not possible.
(26:26):
You have to have all three.
Jon Kidwell (26:28):
Yeah, yeah, oh, corey, if I'm that pilot that
you talked about, that hopefullyis a trustworthy pilot.
My problem is is I just want tokeep flying the plane right now
, but I also know that we needto bring this down.
So I'm that leader and I'mlooking at a wobbly stool.
I've heard the structure I'mwith you on.
Trust precedes value precedesloyalty.
(26:50):
I want nine out of 10, nine outof 10.
Like I want this match.
What do I do?
Cory Scheer (26:58):
So the and we've lined it out in the book the way
to take action on truth, theway to live out your trust
proposition.
It's three things.
It's three steps.
First one is you have to assess.
It could be quantitative, itcould be qualitative, where
you're listening, it could becreating a circle, a
conversation, where you'resimply getting feedback from
(27:18):
other people.
You may do an organizationaltrust assessment.
We deploy trust assessmentsfrequently where it gives you
the deep dive.
On that, there's certainly alot of ways that you can do that
.
Number two you then have toapply a shared framework.
You have to create a commonlanguage and commitment around
trust.
We like our, the model that weuse, because it's simple.
(27:38):
I call it the back of thenapkin model competency, problem
solving and care for others.
We're simply expanding the workof researchers 20 years ago.
They've proven it.
We're clarifying it.
We've now packaged it in a waythat people can just say it's
easy, it's memorable.
We can incorporate this intoour day-to-day conversation, not
just at some keynote speech orat a workshop that we listen to,
(28:00):
but it's something that we canreally make a part of our ethos.
But then the third thing is andthe most important thing
ultimately, that we have to dois we have to take action.
We have to take action on thetruth.
If we stand by, if we becomepassive, if we become complacent
, if we deprioritize this, wewill get the exact results that
we have wired our time andenergy towards and we will
(28:23):
continue to be frustrated.
We'll see negative results withour other key performance
indicators, like retention, likeengagement, like work ethic,
like the overall workplaceculture.
But there's always anopportunity to assess, to apply
the framework and then to takeaction on it.
And then, when we do thosethings, it is incredible what
can start to occur and peoplewill work harder, they will stay
(28:47):
longer, they will be morecreative, they will have more
freedom to disagree, becausethey know that it's not about
questioning somebody else'struth.
It's about having a criticalconversation because of a shared
truth, and that's when theseplaces become almost magical to
work at.
You're like there's somethingin the water here that's so
(29:08):
amazing.
And really what people aredoing is they're just staying
committed to the core tenets ofwhat it means to strengthen
trust.
Jon Kidwell (29:15):
I mean just imagine all of the brain space that is
taken up by all of the secondguessing, all of the am I
reading their motives right?
All of the inferencing that allof us might do in an unhealthy,
toxic organization.
Imagine if all of that's gone.
Imagine if 99% of that is gone,how much we might actually
(29:37):
enjoy working together and howmuch we might get done for the
people we serve.
Corey, thank you for this book.
This is awesome.
I told Corey before we startedand y'all need to get closing
the trust gap.
But I told him before westarted I was like I'm about
halfway through, I'm not done.
It would have been the sweetspot to be like I finished the
book, so I got my own work to do.
I need to take action onfinishing that book and continue
(29:59):
to roll it out Before we go.
My friend, we ask everybodythis and I've been dying to hear
your answer this whole time,corey what does it mean to you
to lead well?
Cory Scheer (30:12):
answer this whole time, corey, what does it mean
to you to lead well?
Well, I'll tell you what thedata says is required of us to
lead well, and it's to startwith trust.
And it starts right here Am Itrustworthy, am I competent, am
I solving the right problems, amI demonstrating care for others
?
And then it begins to go out inconcentric circles.
But in order for us to leadwell, we have to start with
(30:34):
trust.
Jon Kidwell (30:35):
There we go.
Leading well starts with trust.
Corey, where can people connectwith you?
Whether it's for the book,whether it's for the
organizational assessmentkeynotes, whatever it is, what's
the best place and ways toconnect with you?
Cory Scheer (30:49):
LinkedIn is always a good place to start.
I spend a fair amount of timeon LinkedIn posting some things.
I've got a newsletter that'savailable there.
I always respond to people whowant to connect.
That's not a problem.
And then the website for thecompany that I am the founder of
.
It's called Trust CentricConsulting and that's
wwwtrustcentricconsultingcom.
(31:10):
And then the book you can findon Amazon.
Just look up Closing the TrustGap and look for the book with
the blue broken bridge andyou'll find it.
Jon Kidwell (31:18):
That's right.
Everybody go out, grab thatbook.
We will put all the links inthe show notes course here.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
It's been an absolute blessingand a joy.
Thank you so much.
Everybody else, thank you forbeing here.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Until then, be well, lead onand God bless.
How many people on your team trust their leader.
You might be surprised to knowthat 51% of employees do not
trust their leader Over half andit is diminishing.
It's crumbling, and Corey'sresearch data shows it.
Today's guest, corey Shear, isa researcher.
(00:20):
He is founder and CEO ofTrustcentric, a consultancy that
helps organizations close thetrust gap.
That's the name of his book,closing the Trust Gap, and he is
here today to talk about trust,why it's going apart, what we
can do about it and how we, asleaders, can help our teams, our
people, our organizations buildtrust, increase the value in
(00:42):
the organization and in thelives of the people we serve,
and do it well.
Let's dive in with Corey rightnow.
Corey Shearer, my friend, thankyou so much for joining us on
the Leadwell Podcast.
Cory Scheer (00:57):
Thank you, John.
It's great to be with you today.
Really, I'm excited and honoredto be part of the show.
Jon Kidwell (01:03):
Well, since I've met you, I have trusted you.
There's something about it thatI just trust.
I mean, what is that, Corey?
Do you get that often?
Cory Scheer (01:14):
Well, the more I talk about trust, the more I'm
finding people want to talkabout trust with me and that's
really really cool and veryfulfilling and rewarding and it
gives me continued affirmationof the work that I get to do
every day with clients.
So, yes, I love that.
Jon Kidwell (01:33):
Yeah, I mean just from me to you, to everybody
listening.
I think that there's a gooddeal of character and competence
that also come with that, andthat's what we're diving into
today is really closing thistrust gap.
And for those that don't knowthat haven't read the book, but
they need to go read the bookit's a phenomenal book.
Cory Scheer (01:58):
What is the trust gap, corey?
Well, I probably should havemade the gap word plural, but I
thought we would just focus withone.
I mean, the trust gap actuallycontains a lot of potential gaps
and a few that really stand out.
The number one gap is thatwhere an organization could be
compared to where they currentlyare, there is a gap, and that
(02:21):
is there's no organization thathas fully arrived.
No-transcript for the gaps tobe closed.
(02:53):
But more specifically, therewere a couple of research items
from.
I co-authored a national studywith a gentleman by the name of
Kurt Bartolich who runs acompany called Brand Certain and
he invited me to talk about inmy questions on the survey.
He wanted me to talk about theemployee leader trust gap
specifically and a couple of thedata points that came back that
(03:16):
were very alarming.
The first one was 51% offrontline employees don't have a
high level of trust for theirleaders.
So that's a huge trust gap Overhalf right?
Jon Kidwell (03:25):
I heard you say 51% 51%.
Cory Scheer (03:28):
So I mean, imagine if you have, you know, if you
have 500 employees, imagine 250of them showing up every day not
having a high level of trustfor their leaders.
I call that the half-life ofdistrust.
And just the operationalefficiency when you take off
from a runway.
And just the operationalefficiency when you take off
from a runway, and if one ofyour engines were to go out,
(03:48):
what would the pilot do?
There would be an emergencylanding.
Yet on average across allindustries that we evaluated,
that's exactly how companies areoperating.
They're operating with oneengine.
And then they wonder why we havethings like poor retention of
employees or poor productivity,or poor advocacy, or you know,
(04:11):
even to the point where thepeople that we surveyed, they
admitted that just people arelazier and they're not going to
work as hard when they don'ttrust their leaders.
So the effects of this are verysignificant.
And then the second gap in trustthat we saw from the data that
(04:32):
was really what inspired me towrite the book was we found that
leaders typically have a muchhigher perception of
trustworthiness of them thanemployees actually have of them.
And so this interesting gapwhere you may ask a CEO how much
do your employees trust you andthey may say eight out of 10.
And then you go ask thefrontline employees or the
individual contributors and theysay it's more like four out of
(04:54):
10 or five out of 10.
So we dimensionalize that gapand the gap in the perception of
trust between leaders andfrontline employees is 31% on
average.
And so when you dimensionalizethis, when you can look at this
and you can measure it, the goodpart is is that, although it's
difficult to look at initially,it becomes very, very helpful
(05:15):
and then, ultimately, it canbecome hopeful.
If you are willing and if youhave the courage to do something
about it, if you choose toexcuse the data or do nothing
about the data, about thatreality, then you will continue
to get the results that you arecurrently experiencing.
Jon Kidwell (05:33):
I'm curious because you put that out there, it's so
clear, and I know there's astory in the book, but maybe
there's another story.
And I know there's a story inthe book, but maybe there's
another story.
Why wouldn't I want to do that,like if if I, john, I'm sitting
there and you, corey, take thisturn, we do the whole
organization and all of a suddenit's like, oh my goodness, I
(05:57):
thought I was a trustworthy guy.
I thought that we operated withintegrity, I thought that we
did this.
I gave myself a nine out of 10because I am perfect and I come
back and everybody else saysfour out of 10.
Why wouldn't I immediately tryto rectify this?
Cory Scheer (06:11):
I I have I've received a lot of different
responses to that.
Um, I'll answer it, though, formyself, because I've been there
and I've worked with toxicemployees that I cannot figure
out how to wrap my brain aroundwhat the dynamic was occurring
in that team dynamic or thatworkplace dynamic, and, as the
(06:34):
leader of that team, the coreemotion that I experienced and I
know that we all experiencethings differently, but the core
emotion that I was experiencingwas shame, because if I would
have admitted because I had beenwith that team now for a couple
of years, so if I would haveadmitted that we had this
significant trust gap thatneeded to be addressed, that
(06:55):
would have been me saying I haveownership in this, I need to
take responsibility, and for mepersonally, there was a little
bit of shame there andembarrassment, and I think that
that is a that's a reality thatthe longer you are with a team,
the longer you are with anorganization, the harder it is
to admit that something might bewrong as a result of either
(07:19):
your direct leadership orperhaps a lack of addressing
certain things that needed to beaddressed, maybe months or
years ago.
I think that there's a realdynamic.
Interestingly, though, I thinkthat there's an opportunity
where I see from new leaders whoengage with us.
They're new, they don't have alot of things that they're
(07:42):
bringing into the conversation,so they're trying to assess and
get as clear of a picture aspossible.
So when people ask me, who do Itypically work with, I say I
work with two types of clients,typically Number one leaders who
are beginning a new season ofleadership, whether they're
brand new to that position orthey're brand new to that
company or whatever the case maybe.
So they're beginning a newseason or something is going on
(08:05):
within their organization wherethey know that they've got to
make the conscious decision tobegin again.
And that's where, even ifyou've been there five years,
seven years, 10 years, but thereare other indicators or warning
lights going on all over theplace saying you have to reset,
you've got to begin again.
That's the opportunity for anexisting leader to say we need
to reset, you've got to beginagain.
That's the opportunity for anexisting leader to say we need
(08:27):
to reset.
And when you are willing toreset now, you know that you've
got to do a full assessment ofwhat's actually going on within
our workplace culture.
And once you make thatdeclaration, it's amazing how
quickly you can actually move toproductive, generative, future
looking conversations to improveyour overall workplace culture,
health, and that's when thingsget very, very exciting and
(08:50):
hopeful.
Jon Kidwell (08:51):
Yeah, I mean anytime we're taking that step
right and at least to me sittinghere thinking about it, it
feels as though if every singleday, if every single week, the
people around me myself, myorganization are all moving
towards a place where we trusteach other more, where we're
having better dialogue, whereit's healthy in terms of our
(09:12):
relationship, the work we'redoing, the results.
That is going to be one of themost engaging times of work.
You lay out a trust propositionin the book.
Can you explain the trustproposition to everybody that's
listening so we kind of knowwhat are we talking about and in
what direction are we moving?
Cory Scheer (09:30):
Yeah, that's, it's one of them.
It was actually the.
What I was going to originallytitle the book was the trust
proposition, but my wife and herwisdom and her discernment, she
, we, were driving down the road.
Jon Kidwell (09:40):
Everybody needs a good discerner.
Cory Scheer (09:48):
Oh my goodness.
And you know, we were drivingWest on I-70 and I had just had
a conversation with mydevelopmental editor for the
book on the phone and she kindof said, or she after the
conversation, she kind of lookedat me and she said I wonder if
you should call the booksomething different than the
trust proposition.
I was like but like you're, youknow, you're questioning the
title of my book, like it's my,my title.
And she's like well, nobodyknows what the trust proposition
(10:09):
is, yet that's what you're,you're offering that as a
solution to the real problem.
And so I of course said well,now I'm very curious, what are
your thoughts?
And she said well, I think youshould call it closing the trust
gap.
And as soon as she said it,john, I was like oh my gosh.
Jon Kidwell (10:27):
And she had it as clear as what it is today.
Cory Scheer (10:30):
Absolutely.
And she said if I didn't knowyou and if I saw that book title
on the bookshelf, I would buythat book, just because I've
experienced trust gaps indifferent parts of my life,
vocationally or whatever, and soI wouldn't want to know how do
I close the trust gap?
And within the book, the trustproposition is one of the ways
that we do that, and the trustproposition is, of course, a
(10:52):
play on words with the valueproposition.
The value proposition was aterm identified 40 or 50 years
ago by a business leader and hewas basically articulating and
defining this transaction thatoccurs in our mind as consumers
or buyers, when we put forth ourtime or our money in order to
(11:13):
buy something of value.
In our perception, and whatwe're doing there is, we're
taking action on the worth ofsomething.
So worth is a really criticalpart of value proposition.
We assign what the worth ofsomething.
So worth is a really criticalpart of value proposition.
We assign what the worth ofsomething is because if it is
not worth it to us, we will notbuy it or we will not spend time
pursuing it.
So that value proposition isreally critical, and I learned
(11:37):
about value proposition and allof the dynamics in some of my
educational training with myexecutive MBA, so I was familiar
with that phrase.
But I then just had a differentconversation with another leader
when I was doing a lot of mydoctoral work on trust and the
relationship between trust andthen value, and then value and
(11:57):
loyalty, and how trust has toprecede value creation and value
creation has to precede loyaltyfor the consumer.
That was a theoreticalframework that I used some
amazing researchers for mydoctoral work and I used their
framework in order to run mydata through it.
But the idea is well, if thevalue proposition is all about
(12:18):
taking action on the worth ofsomething and If the definition
of trust is that trust is thefirm belief in the truth of
something, so in my mind Ithought, well, what if we
thought about a different typeof a proposition?
What if we talked about thetrust proposition?
And so the trust proposition isnot taking action on the worth
(12:39):
of something.
The trust proposition is takingaction on the truth of
something, taking action on thetruth of something.
So to your earlier question.
One of the reasons why I thinkleaders and teams may have a
difficult time elevating trustto its appropriate priority is
because maybe they don't have ashared framework and
understanding about what trustactually is, and then maybe
(13:00):
their systems and their ethosand maybe their shared
commitments are not pointedtowards taking action.
On the truth of things, maybethey're limiting their efforts
by only taking action on theworth of something.
So the advantage is that mostcompanies are built in a way to
where they're always about valueproposition.
(13:20):
How do we create more value forthe consumer?
But research says is that inorder to maximize value
proposition, you have toincrease trust.
So it's this combination ofliving out your trust
proposition, living out yourvalue proposition and those two
things.
When you think of the companiesthat are, they're seemingly
unstoppable it's because theyhave an incredible value
(13:43):
proposition that is supportedfully by an amazing trust
proposition.
So now the cool part about thiswhole thing is literally last
week I got notification that wetrademarked the trust
proposition and it's now it'sofficial.
So that's been really cool justto continue to be very, very
committed to that terminologyand that kind of approach.
(14:05):
And what it says is that trustdoes not have to remain ethereal
or it doesn't have to remainkind of philosophical or
theoretical, that it's somethingthat it can actually action can
be taken towards it if we arecommitted to the appropriate
model and the priority of doingthat in our day-to-day decisions
as leaders and as teams.
Jon Kidwell (14:31):
I'm holding up something here for those that
are watching online, right, butyou said these three circles,
and it is trust precedes valueand value precedes loyalty.
And if I were to reflect backwhat I just heard, is that not
only for our external valueproposition as organizations,
right?
Whether we're mission-driven,not-for-profit, small business,
big old corporation, whatever itis publicly traded, that value
(14:53):
proposition of what we provide,a service that people want to
engage with us for, is precededby our external trust, like do
they trust us?
Right?
And also, my brain heard man,your value proposition is a
little bit of your external kindof trust measure, or people
engaging with you because theyvalue you and they trust you,
(15:14):
but is the trust proposition alittle bit of my?
This must be true internal tothen get the best of that
external.
Cory Scheer (15:22):
And it aligns with my version of the truth
resonates with their version ofthe truth, and so, as a result
of that, I believe in that,because our truths are similar.
When we believe in somethingthat is true and that aligns
with our own truth, does thatincrease or decrease our value
of them?
It increases that, doesn't it?
(15:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So then our decisions, ourbehaviors, are not just driven
by is it worth it?
Our decisions are informed bydo we trust it?
Yeah, yeah.
So then our decisions, ourbehaviors, are not just driven
by is it worth it?
Our decisions are informed bydo we trust it?
And that is why, and so let'sjust kind of, let's make this
very practical what is, what'sthe name of a brand or a company
that you trust?
Jon Kidwell (16:03):
You just trust them Okay, so they are running
everything that we are doingthis podcast on.
Cory Scheer (16:09):
But if you were to go, I mean I just I just bought
six cell phones for my kids, allApple devices.
Now let me tell you, whenyou're sitting in that cell
phone store getting ready topurchase six, you're like, is
this really worth it?
Yeah, I bet there's no way thatI would spend the money that I
would on those six phones twofor one for my wife and I and
(16:30):
then our four kids.
There's no way that I wouldspend money from purely a value
proposition standpoint.
There are other alternatives.
I can go buy a different kindof a phone.
I can go buy, you know, otheralternatives to the specific
model that I'm looking at.
But it isn't just informed byvalue and that construct of
(16:52):
value.
It's critical and it's not likewe're willing to spend whatever
, but we're willing to spend themoney because we trust that it
will deliver and we trust thatwhat they are about aligns with
what we want to be about as well, and it's the merging of those
two truths.
That's when our value shoots up.
And so, in the same way youknow, obviously as a consumer,
(17:15):
we experienced that.
But think about that internallywith other team members or
leaders or teams that you were apart of where you.
Your value in them is informeddeeply by simply how much you
trust them, which means that youvalue their disagreements, you
value their doubt of certainthings because you know that you
(17:35):
trust that they're coming atthat from a place of respect and
honor and trying to make thingsbetter.
Or you value their reflectionor you value their silence, not
that they're weaponizing theirsilence against you, but because
you trust that they have goodintentions and your truths are
matching.
Jon Kidwell (17:56):
It's playing out in my head in terms of just the
benefit of the doubt that I givea person.
And also, perhaps you've hadthis play out, like I've had
this play out, where sometimesthere's a piece of data or
there's a disagreement, orthere's just this idea that
bubbles up and at some pointit's oh, who said that or where
did this come from?
And they put in that name ofsomebody that you would just go
(18:19):
to the grave over, right, likeyou trust them as much as you
can trust them, and it's like,well, if they said it, it must
be true.
I mean, we've all said thingslike that, right, and this is
exactly what you're talkingabout.
Cory Scheer (18:30):
Yeah, or even you know, if a trusted leader asks
you to do more or do somethingdifferent, you're going to say
yes to that.
If a toxic leader asks you todo more, what are you going to?
Jon Kidwell (18:48):
do with your time.
It's not worth it.
I'm not going to guard it right.
I'm actually I'm going tosecond guess, I'm not going to
give positive intent.
I'm going to, I'm going tothink are they operating in my
best interest or is it in theirbest interest?
Are they doing things for thecompany, or are they doing
things because I'm actuallysetting them up for a political
move that they're trying to make?
All of this stuff goes throughyour head.
Cory Scheer (19:06):
And those are all probably very valid questions,
but, as every time you ask thatquestion without validating in
terms of getting on the samepage with that person, or it's
validated, every time you askthat question, their behaviors
demonstrate that your questionwas the right question.
Now you begin to start seeingthe gap, and that's the whole
premise of the book, and somepeople have asked me well, why
(19:28):
didn't you call it bridging thetrust gap?
It's like I don't want to builda bridge.
Bridges are expensive and theybreak up.
I love it.
Let's close the gap.
The cover of the book has abroken bridge, but it's a play
on.
Like we're not going to build abridge over the bridge, we're
going to close the gap.
Yeah, Like that's the goal.
(19:49):
We got to close the gap.
It's not about building bridges, it's about and that's so so
true that that would.
Jon Kidwell (19:55):
I mean there's tons of places in life where we have
just chasms of division and andit's not just you know this,
this rope bridge or thisstructural bridge, but really
it's what can we do to reconcilethis thing and bring it
together?
Okay, so what gets in the way?
Right, you said if, if we,actually if you, corey, and I,
john, look at the same color andI say that's yellow and you say
(20:20):
no, that's purple, and wedisagree on the truth of
something.
Right, and I use a verymeaningless example.
Unless you and I are LSU Tigerfans, then we're going to go all
up in arms about it, apparently.
But on the whole, that's ameaningless example.
But there are real examples ofwhere what you say is true and
what I think is true are twototally different things.
(20:41):
What else gets in the way oftrust?
Cory Scheer (20:46):
It's a great question and I think the next
thing that I would share is andit goes into the book itself
talks about the structure oftrust.
So this is where, when there isan incomplete understanding of
the structural components oftrust, then we have more trust
dynamics that can occur that arenot positive.
(21:07):
So, for example, we know fromthe research that there are
three primary building blocks ofbuilding trust.
The first one is competency.
That includes technicalcompetency, communication
competency, project managementcompetency, time management
competency, financial competency.
These are all of the thingsthat typically people are hired
to do within a company.
These are your resume skills.
These are all of the thingsthat typically people are hired
(21:27):
to do within a company.
These are your resume skills.
These are the things that youcan build.
You can go get professionaldevelopment, you can get a
different kind of an educationalexperience.
These are the competency, butthey're critical.
But that's only one of thethree building blocks of trust.
Second building block of trustis problem solving.
So problem solving means notonly a proper problem solving
(21:49):
process, that's changemanagement, that's critical
thinking, that's the ability tonavigate through conflict and
resolve it appropriately withhealthy intent, but it's also
the ability to identify problemsbefore they even become a
problem, that we create them asa problem.
So this is that anticipatorythinking about longer term
(22:09):
implications of what we're doingright now, so that we can
prevent those problems fromoccurring.
And then the third buildingblock that is vital, that our
data shows is the mostchallenging building block for
many organizations is thebuilding block of caring for
others.
So this is active listening,appreciative, inquiry, empathy,
sympathy, caring for the needsof the whole person.
(22:31):
So the idea is or what the datasays, is that you may have the
most competent problem solver inthe organization, but if they
don't care about people, theyare breaching trust.
Or you may have the nicestperson with the purest intent,
but if they are not competent, Idon't need the super syrupy,
(22:53):
sweet, nice airline pilot.
I need the respectful airlinepilot that can solve a problem
if we had turbulence, that iscompetent enough to take off and
land my plane.
They don't need to be supernice all of the time.
I need them to have all threeof those building blocks in
order for me to be okay.
And so, in the same way, withina company like this, constant
(23:17):
as a leader now, with thisconstruct of competency, problem
solving and care for others.
Now, instead of me saying Idon't trust that person or I
don't trust that policy orpractice, I can say what is
causing me unrest about thatteam member right now is they
are not identifying the rightproblems to solve.
And as a result of that, theeffect is they are breaking down
(23:39):
trust, or with this particularpolicy or practice that we're
doing, what is causing me angstis that it doesn't demonstrate
care for our other team membersor for our customers, and so,
because of that, I don't trustit, because that doesn't align
with my version of the truth andwhat the truth should be, and
so, as a result of that, weeither can change it or we can
(24:01):
continue to create distrust withthat policy or that practice or
that team member.
So that's where you takesomething ethereal and universal
and you break it down intopieces where you can actually
measure it.
Jon Kidwell (24:15):
And not only measure it like that measurement
, but as you're going throughthat, and for those that think
about courageous conversationsand resolving conflict, and go
back rewind, listen to the wordsthat Corey just shared, because
what that structure did was itactually took a very large
majority, if not all, of theproblems we have with people and
(24:37):
we turned them to the problemsthat we actually have.
Right, the language that youflipped on was, instead of Jim's
, a jerk is.
We are not solving the rightproblems and thus I'm frustrated
with Jim or whatever that mightbe, and in all of those kind of
coaching and teaching and teambuilding and all of us go
through those things and we talkabout.
(24:59):
You know, go, go towards theproblem.
Don't attack the individual.
Do this, do this Because whenwe do, we further diminish trust
in your language and in yourmodel.
You've given us not only theingredients, if you will, those
interrelated pieces, but it alsohelps us move into how do I
(25:19):
actually go after the realproblem that exists?
Cory Scheer (25:23):
And if we don't do that and we're in a leadership
position, guess what?
Every other team member is nowthinking about us.
Position, guess what?
Every other team member is nowthinking about us.
My leader is not competentenough to go have that
conversation because they don'trecognize it.
My leader is not willing tosolve the right problem.
My leader does not care for meenough to be able to go address
(25:44):
this very, very challengingpersonnel dynamic that is
causing distress among all of us.
And so, as a result of that,not only do I not trust that
other person, I don't trust myleader.
And now you have two gaps thatare occurring and the leader is
saying well, but they'retechnically, they're very, very
proficient in what they do orthey're a bulldog when it comes
(26:05):
to problem solving.
The challenge is that you cannotovercompensate with one
building block to make up for adeficiency in another building
block of trust.
You have to have all three.
They have to be strong, andotherwise you begin to have that
wobbly three leg of the stooldynamic.
Making one leg of the stoollonger doesn't actually solve
the problem.
It's not possible.
(26:26):
You have to have all three.
Jon Kidwell (26:28):
Yeah, yeah, oh, corey, if I'm that pilot that
you talked about, that hopefullyis a trustworthy pilot.
My problem is is I just want tokeep flying the plane right now
, but I also know that we needto bring this down.
So I'm that leader and I'mlooking at a wobbly stool.
I've heard the structure I'mwith you on.
Trust precedes value precedesloyalty.
(26:50):
I want nine out of 10, nine outof 10.
Like I want this match.
What do I do?
Cory Scheer (26:58):
So the and we've lined it out in the book the way
to take action on truth, theway to live out your trust
proposition.
It's three things.
It's three steps.
First one is you have to assess.
It could be quantitative, itcould be qualitative, where
you're listening, it could becreating a circle, a
conversation, where you'resimply getting feedback from
(27:18):
other people.
You may do an organizationaltrust assessment.
We deploy trust assessmentsfrequently where it gives you
the deep dive.
On that, there's certainly alot of ways that you can do that
.
Number two you then have toapply a shared framework.
You have to create a commonlanguage and commitment around
trust.
We like our, the model that weuse, because it's simple.
(27:38):
I call it the back of thenapkin model competency, problem
solving and care for others.
We're simply expanding the workof researchers 20 years ago.
They've proven it.
We're clarifying it.
We've now packaged it in a waythat people can just say it's
easy, it's memorable.
We can incorporate this intoour day-to-day conversation, not
just at some keynote speech orat a workshop that we listen to,
(28:00):
but it's something that we canreally make a part of our ethos.
But then the third thing is andthe most important thing
ultimately, that we have to dois we have to take action.
We have to take action on thetruth.
If we stand by, if we becomepassive, if we become complacent
, if we deprioritize this, wewill get the exact results that
we have wired our time andenergy towards and we will
(28:23):
continue to be frustrated.
We'll see negative results withour other key performance
indicators, like retention, likeengagement, like work ethic,
like the overall workplaceculture.
But there's always anopportunity to assess, to apply
the framework and then to takeaction on it.
And then, when we do thosethings, it is incredible what
can start to occur and peoplewill work harder, they will stay
(28:47):
longer, they will be morecreative, they will have more
freedom to disagree, becausethey know that it's not about
questioning somebody else'struth.
It's about having a criticalconversation because of a shared
truth, and that's when theseplaces become almost magical to
work at.
You're like there's somethingin the water here that's so
(29:08):
amazing.
And really what people aredoing is they're just staying
committed to the core tenets ofwhat it means to strengthen
trust.
Jon Kidwell (29:15):
I mean just imagine all of the brain space that is
taken up by all of the secondguessing, all of the am I
reading their motives right?
All of the inferencing that allof us might do in an unhealthy,
toxic organization.
Imagine if all of that's gone.
Imagine if 99% of that is gone,how much we might actually
(29:37):
enjoy working together and howmuch we might get done for the
people we serve.
Corey, thank you for this book.
This is awesome.
I told Corey before we startedand y'all need to get closing
the trust gap.
But I told him before westarted I was like I'm about
halfway through, I'm not done.
It would have been the sweetspot to be like I finished the
book, so I got my own work to do.
I need to take action onfinishing that book and continue
(29:59):
to roll it out Before we go.
My friend, we ask everybodythis and I've been dying to hear
your answer this whole time,corey what does it mean to you
to lead well?
Cory Scheer (30:12):
answer this whole time, corey, what does it mean
to you to lead well?
Well, I'll tell you what thedata says is required of us to
lead well, and it's to startwith trust.
And it starts right here Am Itrustworthy, am I competent, am
I solving the right problems, amI demonstrating care for others
?
And then it begins to go out inconcentric circles.
But in order for us to leadwell, we have to start with
(30:34):
trust.
Jon Kidwell (30:35):
There we go.
Leading well starts with trust.
Corey, where can people connectwith you?
Whether it's for the book,whether it's for the
organizational assessmentkeynotes, whatever it is, what's
the best place and ways toconnect with you?
Cory Scheer (30:49):
LinkedIn is always a good place to start.
I spend a fair amount of timeon LinkedIn posting some things.
I've got a newsletter that'savailable there.
I always respond to people whowant to connect.
That's not a problem.
And then the website for thecompany that I am the founder of
.
It's called Trust CentricConsulting and that's
wwwtrustcentricconsultingcom.
(31:10):
And then the book you can findon Amazon.
Just look up Closing the TrustGap and look for the book with
the blue broken bridge andyou'll find it.
Jon Kidwell (31:18):
That's right.
Everybody go out, grab thatbook.
We will put all the links inthe show notes course here.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
It's been an absolute blessingand a joy.
Thank you so much.
Everybody else, thank you forbeing here.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
Until then, be well, lead onand God bless.
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