April 10, 2024 • 42 mins
How do you see conflict?
For me, Jon, until 10 years ago I saw conflict as
... something to avoid
... a sign that you were angry (or a jerk)
... the thing that people with bad relationships did
I know, not a super helpful approach (I share my learnings and more here)
My guest, Michelle Thompson, reframed how I see conflict - and will for you too.
She helped me see conflict is
... something to engage in
... a sign you care about the person
... the thing healthy people do to make things healthy
Michelle, Sr. Director of Coaching and Consulting at Concordia-Irvine shares:
- How conflict done well can actually bond us together
- How engaging in conflict can increase empathy (MUST hear story!)
- How to balance relationships and results in tough conversations
- Why conflict is needed to create healthy, high performing teams
Check out this episode, and confidently engage in the next hard conversation.
Find more about Michelle at:
Michelle Thompson | michelle.thompson@cui.edu
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/growthcoachmichelle
Concordia | https://www.cui.edu/
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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.
Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.
For more information visit https://leadwell.com
The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.
In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.
Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Lead Well podcast, the podcast where
we interview mission-drivenleaders who are doing it well.
We ask them what they're doingand how they're doing it so that
you can lead your organizationand your people well.
How many of us believe thatconflict is bad?
How many of us believe thatconflict is bad, that it's
(00:32):
unhealthy and that if there isconflict then things aren't
going as well as they could be?
Today's guest is organizations,to help them find and build
meaningful connections andachieve their highest potential.
She does this as an executivecoach, as a consultant, as the
(00:55):
senior director of executivecoaching and consulting for
Concordia University, Irvine.
She's ICF certified, she is adear friend and she is also
getting a doctorate in what weare talking about today.
So let's jump into ourconversation with Michelle,
(01:23):
Michelle Thompson, one of myabsolute dearest friends.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the Leadwell podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
John, it is so good to be here.
Thanks for the honor ofspending time with you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I don't know about all that, but what I do know is
that I have a huge problem, andit's between you and me.
Honestly, it's a conflict, andwe need to get this resolved and
I'm totally joking, except forthe fact that maybe you do need
to come to the house and havedinner with us, and it's
starting to hurt my feelings,and so I need you to make that
happen.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So may I just make a suggestion.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Please, please.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
It helps if I'm invited over.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, you're telling me that that's the real issue,
that we just haven't put theinvite in the mail yet right
like this is nothing personal.
There's just not been aninvitation yet all right, okay,
so obviously not a real conflict, but a real dinner.
That has to happen, but that iswhere we're going today,
because I I know that you getthis, michelle, I get this all
the time that conflict,especially in the workplace I
(02:28):
mean out of the workplace tooit's messy, it's hard, there's a
lot wrapped up in it and it isone of the things that is most
critical for us to do well, tohave healthy, thriving
relationships and organizations.
So what is going on withconflict and why do we get all
kind of worked up in and aroundhaving to jump into tough
(02:51):
conversations?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
John, I'm so glad you brought this up, and it is fun
to pretend that there's conflictbetween us, but for some people
, conflict just isn't a laughingmatter.
It really brings a lot ofemotion and struggle and worry
inside of them, a lot of anxietyand's a thing to be managed and
dealt with.
In fact, I just like to saythat conflict is something that
(03:30):
you move through with thecourage to correct a situation
or having the courage toconfront a topic that you're
going to move forward in, andtoo many times we put all this
pressure on I have to get itright or I have to be on the
right side of an issue, and thatis what causes the tension for
(03:52):
us within conflict.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, something that I practiced growing up, that I,
if left to my own devices, mightwant to be right on certain
matters, and that all of thosethings.
What you're telling me isthat's part of what gets it to
(04:16):
where I really do have somethingthat I got to come talk to you
about, michelle.
It's heavy, it's bothering me,and now I've played out 17
different scenarios in my head.
I'm sweating, my pulse isracing and I just I can't bring
myself to to go through it, andso I choose the
uncomfortableness for the entirerest of the relationship and
(04:39):
fake smiles because of thosefeelings.
Right, that's what you'resaying because of those feelings
.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Right, that's what you're saying.
Absolutely, you're eitherpicking that I will fake it and
just push through it and ignoreit, or you become a person who
will protest against it and theanger that you have builds up
walls.
That actually destroys therelationship with the other
person.
And so what you're talkingabout is all this tension and
emotional the stories.
(05:05):
I loved it how you said I cameup with 17 stories in my head
about this.
I totally do that.
I have so many conversations inmy head and I say brilliant
things Like I don't know aboutyou, but I say like I have the
best comebacks to people in myhead all the time.
And what is happening is there'sactually a scientific
(05:26):
neuroscience reason for that.
It's because a part of ourbrain is working this topic over
and over and over again it'sthe amygdala.
The amygdala is the part of ourbrain that has our fight,
flight and freeze reaction.
So it takes in information andit quickly wants to make a
decision on whether this is goodflight and freeze reaction.
So it takes in information andit quickly wants to make a
(05:46):
decision on whether this is good, bad.
What should we do?
And so when something feelsuncomfortable, all of a sudden,
what you just talked about doingis that you're going to kind of
flight from it.
You're just going to go awayfrom it in the conversations and
you're just going to act likenothing's happening or that
nothing's wrong.
Other people do the fight andthey want to get angry and you
(06:11):
say what's wrong?
Why is there tension between us?
Like nothing, nothing.
But you know that there's thishard hard part.
You know this line like withthe I'm fine, it's fine, right.
Like I'm fine, there's thattension.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It'm fine.
It's fine Right Like I'm finethere's that tension.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's good, it's all fine.
And then there's the phrasething where people will just
shut down and just be quiet.
The problem with that is is wehave now given something control
of ourselves internally.
That is now also defining therelationship that we have with
another person, and that isharmful, because the conflict
(06:54):
actually is never about theother person.
It might be about the otherperson's opinion, it might be
about the other person's goalsor direction, but the conflict
is typically about a thing thatcan be addressed.
It's not about the human beforeus you because I'm looking at
(07:26):
you.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I feel like it is about you because of something
that you have done or somethingthat you have said.
But what I think I just heardyou say is that it's actually a
reframing, that my problem's notwith you.
But I may have an issue withsomething that you have done or
something that happened inbetween the two of us, or maybe
even happened outside of us, ina different team, inside of our
organization, but it's how wouldI say that better to kind of
(07:51):
bring everyone that's listeninginto it.
It's not about the person.
Help us there.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, it's not.
It's not about the person.
The human before you is aspecial creation, a unique
creation, a person with feelingsand heart and hopes and dreams
and goals.
Just like you, they have hopesand dreams and goals, and just
as you don't want to be attackedfor those things, that human
should not be attacked for thosethings.
(08:19):
And so we, when we start thispart back to your example of I
have a tension and now I've had17 stories go on in my head and
I get mad and I'm frustrated,and there's all this tension and
conflict and I choose not to goforward and deal with it, and
so I run away and I just smileand act like everything is okay.
(08:42):
That is incredibly unhealthyfor you to do, so stop doing
that, john please, let's be real.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You and I have known each other for over a decade and
you have coached, advised,counseled, corrected I can keep
coughing and adding things thatyou have done for me.
This ain't our first rodeo inthis, and this is something that
that you really guided methrough years ago and and how to
approach this in a way where Icould feel as though I could
(09:12):
tell the kind hard truth, whereI could engage to reframe this
as this is what healthyrelationship looks like, not
avoiding it.
So I I promise, when at my bestI am, I'm going in with the
courage that you call us to.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's awesome, John.
You've been a great student.
I'm very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I'm not graduating yet.
I'm still following you aroundand you still have to teach me.
So I'm still the karate kid.
I get to follow you because youare the master.
So here's the thing If youdon't, oh, go ahead.
Sorry, I cut you off.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I was just going to say what you've learned, what
you just talked about learning,then, is being able to come out
of your amygdala.
We talked about the amygdala.
We talked about these reactionsthat actually create an
unhealthy relationship with theother person or other people,
and it creates a tension that'sunhealthy with inside of us.
(10:09):
And what you were talking aboutis you learned to speak truth
and to talk to other people, andwhat happens is we, when we
feel these feelings of I need torun away from this, I just want
to ignore it or I want to fightagainst it, I want to get mad
and just push against thatperson.
We need to take a deep breathand just push against that
(10:31):
person.
We need to take a deep breath,take the pause and say to
ourselves what's reallyhappening here?
What happens to me times is wereact without pondering what's
really the issue.
If we can remember, okay, Ifeel mad at this person, but
it's not actually the person.
What about?
What is being represented?
(10:53):
What's the issue at hand that Ineed to actually be looking at
to be able to confront thatpiece, confronting the yeah, go
ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So that's the.
That's the question, that thathelps frame it and it's not the
first time that you've told methat one and I think what's the
issue?
Right, and I've narrow in andfigure out.
Okay, the issue is that youtalked behind my back.
The issue is that you blew upat me in a phone call.
(11:38):
The issue is that I feel asthough I was misled because it
didn't seem that all of thisinformation matched up with this
information.
Whatever the issue might be,what do I do next?
Right, I feel like I have that,but what am I going to do
(11:59):
inside of this besides justwalking in and being like
Michelle?
Here's the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I think you lied to me.
So what's wrong with that?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
With me saying that I just put it back on the
individual, not the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So let me tweak that just a little bit for you.
If you if you had felt like Ilied to you, for you to come in
and say, hey, michelle, thisincident happened the other day
and, as I've been thinking aboutit, I really was wrestling with
some discomfort within myselfand I realized what happened is
(12:36):
I feel like you lied to me,which then made me feel like I
was losing trust in you, and Ireally think that I want to
resolve that, because the senseof the feeling of the line and
the loss of trust is now theissue and the piece at hand.
You haven't said somethingabout Michelle.
(12:57):
You're a liar.
You didn't call me a liar,right?
You talked about yourexperience of the moment.
Is, you felt, lied to?
That was your experience at themoment.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, outside of you and I kind of going back and
forth, those of us that know youknow that you get called into
these all the time and that youhave a great way of delivering
truth with a big smile and allof us walk away and are like
that was the best ever.
I think I have a lot of work todo, but that was wonderful.
So tell us about a time wherethere was an issue and you got
(13:37):
to help a person, a couple ofpeople, an entire organization
and just walk through that in away that looked and resulted in
a healthy relationship andthriving workplace.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I would love to.
I got called in one time.
I got a phone call from asupervisor and supervisor said I
have two people in my officethat need to be working together
and they cannot work together.
They fight all day long.
They take turns coming into myoffice complaining about the
other one.
It is at the point that if thisdoes not get resolved, I'm
(14:12):
going to have to let one of themgo because it's harming just
even our office culture.
Not only are they not gettingtheir work done, the office
culture is not working.
And I said, well, good grief, Ican't pass up this opportunity.
That sounds like a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Man.
But, michelle, I'm just sittinghere and thinking how many of
us are listening to how you'veset this story up and it's like
well, is she about to starttalking about me?
Is she about to start talkingabout my workplace?
I don't actually remember whenyou came in, but two people need
to work together.
Struggling to work together.
Our inability to work togetheris now impacting others.
(14:53):
And all of a sudden we start tosee how this becomes more than
just one piece of conflictbetween two people.
It's a cultural problem in anorganization.
So I don't believe you'retalking about me or any of the
people listening, but let's keepgoing.
So you get called in.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
You're super excited which is weird, but that's okay,
I'll reassure you, it's notabout you.
But and I did I walked in thereand and here's the other thing
to remember too is these areboth talented people, yet one of
them is about to have to begone because of what they've
done to the culture.
And so I walk in and I sit downwith both of them and I start
(15:34):
with one and say tell me what'shappening.
And she begins to tell me allthe things.
And look, and I said look atthe other person.
And she begins to tell theother person all the things that
she's done wrong, that shecan't stand about her, that how
she's micromanaging her, howshe's not trusting her, how
she's.
It's just a list of things.
(15:55):
And it's you, you, you.
You make life miserable.
You are doing these things youare doing, you are making me
look bad, you are trying to takeover my job.
You don't trust me.
And I said to the other personso that person was kind of in
the fight mode, the other personwas a little bit more in the
flight mode doing the.
Well, I just, I just try to putup with it.
(16:16):
I'm the martyr here and I'mjust trying to make life good
for you and I don't understandwhy you see this as a problem.
I mean, it was watching ithappen in front of me.
It truly was a moment of am Isitting in this real space of
listening to people say thesethings out loud that I know
actually goes on inside ofpeople's heads?
(16:37):
But it was like those 17conversations in real life
coming and they were attackingeach other and I thought to
myself I'm not sure what I'mgoing to do here to help bridge
this, because this is likethey're talking not just
necessarily to each other or ateach other, they're even talking
past each other.
And so what I realized all of asudden is, I thought to myself,
(17:01):
I'm like do they know eachother?
Do they know about each other?
Do they know who each other is?
And I said can we just pausefor a second?
And I said I would love for you.
I looked at one of them and saidI would love for you to tell me
a story about when you wereeight years old.
And she told this amazing storyof what her life was like and
(17:24):
actually some of the challengesthat were happening in her life
at that time and how she had torecover from them.
And then I looked at the otherperson and I said tell me a
story about when you were eightyears old.
And now, all of a sudden, thisperson comes up with a story
from their life and theirexperiences that really had some
(17:45):
hardship to it also and someunique circumstances that were
very different than the otherpersons.
But I watched both of them andtheir faces just soften.
It was literally like ahardness melting off of each of
them.
And I said what did the two ofyou learn about that?
And the one looked at the otherand said I can't believe you
(18:09):
had to grow up in that.
And the other one said oh mygoodness, I can't believe you
had to grow up in that.
And the other one said oh mygoodness, I can't believe you
had to grow up in that.
And then, all of a sudden, westarted this discussion of
knowing each other's humanity orrecognizing that Now I see why
you might behave this way andwhy you might behave that way,
because when you were youngerthat was your coping mechanism.
(18:30):
So now I can appreciate you asa human.
I can say I get it, let's notuse our defense mechanisms.
Let's say that in thissituation, we can choose how we
want to respond.
And they restarted figuring outhow to respond differently to
each other.
The crazy part is I walked outof that meeting a little bit
(19:00):
like okay, that felt a littlesurreal, but I also walked away
going I don't know if that didanything.
And so I came back two weekslater to do a follow-up.
I was going to do a follow-upwith each of them individually
and together.
And they both showed up in theroom together at first and said
we just want to tell you thatever since that meeting, we have
been totally fine, everythingis great.
And I said, if I go to yoursupervisor, is that what your
(19:20):
supervisor will say?
And they're like we think so.
Went to the supervisor andsupervisor's like yeah, I don't
know what happened two weeks ago, but I get to keep two really
great employees now.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Man.
I just sitting here kind ofoverwhelmed at thinking, when we
see the person with whom wehave a problem, all of a sudden
both of the people can go workon the problem and that's
powerful.
Michelle, outside ofidentifying the issue you just
(19:56):
laid out kind of the meat ofwhat's going on in there is that
relationship piece sittingthere and they don't get the
pleasure of having you sit thereand mediate.
How can they work some of thatinto their conflict resolution
when stuff comes up?
And at home at work withfriends, family, colleagues?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a great.
It's a great question.
So one of the things that Itell people to do first and
foremost is to take yourself outof it, because what we do is we
hear things, we feel things andwe make it all about us at
first, and so it's kind of likea shield up experience for us
(20:44):
and I say, well, the first thingyou have to do is go, wait a
second.
This may not all be about me,there's other factors in this,
so don't make it all about you,there's nothing to defend here.
I always tell people put yourfeet on the ground and remember
that the ground is there, it'sstable and you are grounded.
You're not you're you're, youare not going to fall, apart
(21:07):
from whatever's about to happennext, because I think some
people think that they're goingto just crash and burn when they
feel like that tension of theconflict.
So it's not about you.
You're grounded, You're stable,you're okay.
The second part, then, is getcurious.
Get more curious about theother person's side and get
(21:34):
curious about what the story isthat they're hearing and telling
themselves.
So, john, you used the examplea little bit ago of saying,
michelle, you lied to me and nowit's breaking trust and I could
shield up and say well, youknow what's he thinking?
He doesn't know me.
And I could get all in the past.
I would have gotten all likehigh and mighty and told you a
(21:57):
few things, but instead I become.
I become curious, I becomecurious.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Which could need to be happening right Like, let's
just be real.
I might deserve that, but forthe sake of our illustration.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
You might deserve it and you might get it, but I need
proof and reason to give it toyou that way.
So I become curious.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
What I think I heard in that beautiful snarky saying
in there was actually somereally helpful truth is that
there might still be a timecoming where there is an opinion
or a decision or advice that islevied right, hey, this is what
needs to happen, but not firstright.
(22:45):
And a lot of the times we jumpto that Like I just got to let
people know, boom, right and so.
But that's what you're sayingwhen you say get curious.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, absolutely, because I can say to you John,
tell me specifically whathappened that gave you the, what
gave you the information thatthat I might have lied to you
and you might say I'm the onethat's coming.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
You're supposed to take care of my conflict and
resolve it.
Now you're making me work.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
No, no, no Conflict has to happen within you know
more than one relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, we have.
Another key critical piece isis it's not.
It's it's not like you and Iare playing, you know, know, hot
potato here it's.
It's this thing where we'retrying to do it together and you
know, hot potato meaning Idon't want to touch it.
(23:42):
Less ping pong, being more ofthis is something that we're
trying to keep this rally goingso that we can get to where we
want to go.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Exactly, exactly, and so you can say something about.
Well, michelle, when you saidthat Taylor Swift was the best
concert you'd ever gone to, Ireally feel like you lied to me,
because I know that you've beento some other great concerts.
(24:11):
You've been with my band in thelocal coffee shop and now I'm
just yes, this is not a strongillustration, but it's okay for
us right now and I could say toyou I might be able to give
clarity to this and say John,you know what I that wasn't
(24:33):
meant to be a lie and I wasmoving really fast and I can
completely understand that maybethe way I said it didn't come
out the way I meant it to and soI just want to apologize for
that.
And what do we need to do?
Like can you accept that fromme and and take that like you?
(24:55):
Now you've heard my part of thestory, you've heard what my
intention was, what my, what Iwas bringing to the table, and
we go back, like you said, theping pong.
We go back and forth until weunderstand the intention, the
core, until we know that we haveresolved the topic at hand,
(25:15):
where you either feel like Ilied to you and now you're
realizing that I haven't, or youmight still feel like I lied to
you and you get.
You finally come to this pieceof I've said my piece and
nothing else is going to happenor change, and I'm going to have
to live with and accept that inthat conflict.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
But ultimately we want the relationship to be okay
and and for you, for you and I,for that scenario.
Right, it was a, it was arelationship based problem.
Uh, that is what felt, like itwas broken.
We've been teed up the trust soyou have given us first going
(25:59):
in and identifying what's theissue, and then we've spent a
lot of time in the middle on howdo I relate to the individual
and how can I keep this focusedin something where the
individual, the humans involved,are working together.
Not everybody's going tonecessarily work towards the
relationship, but a healthierrelationship would be the
(26:21):
outcome.
What is that next question thatyou have for us After we do?
What's the issue?
We got that middle, but there'sstill something I got to think
about when I'm going into thesethings and what's that question
that you have for people?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I think that question that I would have for people is
what do I want the outcome tobe in this, what?
What's the desired outcome hereand how do we accomplish that
desired outcome?
Now, I would suggest that thetop priority in any desired
(26:56):
outcome is protect relationshipand protect the human, protect
the other person's humanity,protect their integrity.
We don't tear people down andthen we work hard at protecting
the relationship and theconnection between us, and then
(27:17):
the desired outcome might bethat we agree to move in a
direction that I chose to move,that you weren't sure if you
wanted to go in, if we werehaving a conflict over a
decision, but then I also decide.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Can you walk us through a little bit more of
that one?
Because now I'm, how do we bothget on the same page around
that one, right, if I have adifferent desired outcome, you
might be coming in with adifferent perspective and a
different desired outcome.
So help me and help everybodykind of build those into kind of
getting to where the desiredoutcome is achieved or where a
(27:58):
new desired outcome is builtbased on what I understand.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, this is where things like compromise come in
to play or negotiation comesinto play in a relational way,
because the most important thingfor me, actually, if you and I
have different opinions, is thatI'm heard.
That I'm heard and I know thatyou know how I feel or what I
(28:24):
think, and even if we are goingto go with your decision, you
still respect me at the end ofthe day because I spoke up for
what I believed and that I wasable to bring it to the table,
and you respect me as a human.
If I have any sense that Ihaven't been heard, that I
(28:46):
haven't been heard, or now youthink less of me because you
didn't agree with my idea, thatstrips away part of my being.
It strips away part of myself-esteem, it brings
self-doubt into play and that iswhat will hinder the
relationship between you and Iand, at the end of the day, it's
always about the relationshipthat we want to save.
(29:08):
If we are talking about a topicand we're at the topic and
you're seeing it as red and I'mseeing it as blue and we can't
find a way to compromise, for itto be purple, that that might
be an ideal thing for us tofight to shade of purple in
(29:28):
there, um, but if I've beenheard and you say to me,
michelle, I really think this isthe direction we're going to
need to go.
As long as I've heard that, I'mokay going that direction.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And how much does that in you play out to other
people in terms of kind of ourneeding to be heard, to be
valued, to be participatory indecisions, especially things
that impact our work, our lives,our relationships?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
relationships.
Yeah, this is every human being.
This is a basic need for everyhuman being.
I don't care what type of houseyou live in, I don't care what
economic status you are, I don'tcare what country, what your
(30:31):
background is all of thosethings it always comes down to.
As human beings we have aheart's desire to be seen and to
be loved and to be connected.
It's how we are wired, and soif I can honor those things with
whoever I'm with, theneverything else becomes just
overflow out of thatrelationship.
(30:51):
Those are the things that Iprotect and I don't let get
damaged.
And if I do damage them, it ismy responsibility to go back and
say I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So take it to someone who's listening, that's leading
a team and they know thatthey've been avoiding, uh,
conflict not intentionally, butfor one's own comfort or for
artificial harmony and and theyneed to go have a with a team
member, or maybe they need tohave a one-up kind of level up
(31:26):
conversation with their leader.
And now the stakes are feelingjust a little bit higher because
compensation could be involved.
My employment, I at least, feellike it's on the line every
time I'm getting ready to gohave one of these conversations.
Help that person navigate itand tell them why it is so
(31:46):
critical for them, regardless ofif it's a team member or a team
leader, that they have to talkto.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, this is one way that you do it is you become
more vulnerable and you set thestage when I come to your house
for dinner, you're going to seta table.
I can't.
I can't wait either.
You're going to set a table sothat we have a place to sit down
(32:17):
and to eat and to do this, youknow, to have our conversation
and all those things.
So if I, if I need to go in andhave a conversation with
someone, especially if I havebeen avoiding having conflict or
a hard conversation withsomeone, I can go in and say I'm
coming in, john, to have adiscussion with you, and I want
(32:38):
to tell you that I'm a littlebit uncomfortable about having
this discussion.
I but I believe that it'sreally right for me to have this
discussion because I want ourrelationship to be one of
connection and for us to getreally good things done here,
and if I don't face this awkwardconversation, we're going to
(33:02):
miss that opportunity.
Are you okay with me tryingthis new skill that I'm going to
put out here and just beinghonest with the person?
Like I'm going to do something,I'm uncomfortable with it and
you know what I might?
I might mess it up a little bitfor the first few times.
If you are a leader and you goin and say that to one of your,
(33:24):
one of your direct reports, oneof your direct reports, they
will sit there dumbfoundedbecause they will not know what
to do with the amount of respectyou have just given them.
If you go and do that to asupervisor, that supervisor is
going to be dumbfounded becausethey are going to be in awe of
(33:47):
the courage that you have tocome in and give voice to
something that you think isvaluable and important and
that's only going to build trustwith them.
All of these things startbuilding trust when you have
those conversations.
So go, set the table.
Set the table and say I don'tknow how this is going to go.
Then that table is set and thenyou serve the meal, and that
(34:11):
serving that meal is.
This is where I'm struggling.
This is what I'm feeling.
This is what I'm thinking.
I own the feelings, I own thethoughts, I own the reactions
that I'm having.
I never say you made me feelthis way.
I feel this way when you snapback at me.
(34:33):
I feel this way when I don'thave a clear list of
expectations and then I am heldresponsible for something.
I think that I am not doing agood job when I hear these types
of words.
So you're aligning yourresponse to a certain action.
(34:57):
You're not attributing it tothe person love the set the
table analogy.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I think about and use that same type of analogy and
say you know, when you're on adate, it's great to sit across
from each other and you get thesalt and pepper in the middle.
It's awkward on a date ifyou're the two people sitting on
the same side in the boothlooking out at everybody else.
However, in conflict, when weset the table and we put the
(35:29):
issue in the middle, if we missthe issue at all, it's going to
bounce off and hit the otherperson and so, in conflict, we
do actually sit on the exactsame side of the table, knee to
knee, shoulder to shoulder, andwe both point ourselves at the
issue, just like you are saying,so that if and when I do in
fact miss, I'm not missing atthe person.
I'm missing trying to get tothe problem, but doing it in a
(35:53):
way where I'm working with theperson.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
You got it, that's.
That's absolutely what it is.
And sometimes it's okay, in themidst of that, if you're
sitting at the table there onthat same site to look at the
person and say you need toexcuse me for a moment, I'm
going to walk away for a moment,it's okay for us to say I need
a pause in this discussion and Ican come back to it in a little
(36:17):
bit, because none of us canassume that we can keep
everything thinking wisetogether all at one time.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, the somebody that that you and I would both
know because because it isthrough Concordia came in and
she was so, so proud and she didawesome at it and courageous
conversation and just going allin on this conflict stuff that
she needed to have.
And I said, wonderful, how'd itgo?
And she said I was exhausted.
It was two and a half hours andI said, whoa, I'd be exhausted
(36:49):
too.
I was like I don't know if Icould do any of that for more
than five, 15 minutes.
So here's what you've walked usthrough.
Conflict is necessary and it isgood to create healthy
relationships, thrivingorganizations, that we approach
(37:11):
it, having conflict about anissue not focused on the human,
the individual on the other side, working together in a way to
build relationship, into part ofour resolution.
We ask ourself what's the issueand we make sure that we know
what the desired outcome is.
(37:32):
What else do we need to know sothat we can walk out of here
and start courageously engagingin conflict to make
relationships and workplacesbetter?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I think the thing that you need to know is that
this is a skill.
It's not something that justexpect to make some mistakes and
expect others to be wonderingwhat in the world's happening to
(38:13):
you and be okay with that.
It is like if you were going torun a marathon.
You're not going to go out onthe first day and run 26 miles.
You've got to build up to those26 miles you got to.
You know, for me, I'd have to,like, run a yard first before I
could run.
You know much further, and sotake the small steps and be kind
(38:40):
to yourself.
Be kind to yourself as youpractice these things, but I
promise you that practicingthese things will begin to
release the tension that we feelwhen conflict arises.
I find myself rarely having aspike an emotional spike when
(39:02):
there's tension in a room ortension with me and another
person, Because I just know thatif I take a breath, we will
walk through it, and that hascome because of having to
continue to practice thesethings.
I will promise you that back inmy day, I would hit conflict
(39:23):
and I would come out of the likelike it was a sprint, Like I
was, like I was up to theceiling and, in a heartbeat, um,
fighting it, and it is such arelief and such a gift to go.
Okay, we'll walk through thisand I can be calm, but it's
taken a journey to get there.
It's taken practice, it's takenpeople who love me and when I'm
(39:47):
there I find that out of theconflict I actually get better
results and continue to grow,because the conflict has
actually been a benefit and nota harm to me.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So I said, I've known Michelle for some time.
She is not new in this rodeoand the goal that I had, after
getting some great coaching fromher, was that I was going to
disagree with an idea, anindividual or a piece of
information every week for sixmonths, and that was a goal that
I worked through, and 10 yearslater, it's still not
instinctual.
(40:24):
I don't just go around lookingfor all of these things.
Instinctual.
I don't just go around lookingfor all of these things.
However, it is much morepracticed and it is what is able
to be engaged with in a waywhere I can hold on to the human
and still go at whatever theissue is, and so I would
encourage all of you to keep upwith Michelle, to connect with
(40:47):
Michelle Honestly.
You just need to come toConcordia University, irvine, so
that you can go through aprogram with Michelle.
That would be wonderful.
Michelle, before you go, I'mgoing to ask you, just like I
ask everybody else, what does itmean for you to lead well?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
for you to lead well.
For me to lead well is to holda vision in my hands and then
bring people along who I knowthat they are the ones who are
the secret sauce and the successto that vision, and I want to
(41:29):
open up opportunities for them,to open up space for them to be
able to live their wildestdreams, to live beyond what they
ever thought that they could do.
Let them have a goal andachieve it and all drive in
towards that vision.
It is about creating people tobe more than what they ever
expected they could be.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Said by a true leader my friends, have courage,
engage in conflict to buildrelationship through the
resolutions that you settogether.
Thank you so much for being apart of the show today, michelle
.
I love you, my friend.
I can't wait to have you overfor dinner and we can start the
marathon training.
You can chase my three childrenaround our yard and we'll just
(42:11):
start there and go from there toeverybody listening.
Thank you so much.
Make sure you check out,michelle, and until we see you
next time, be well, lead on andGod bless.
Welcome to the Lead Well podcast, the podcast where
we interview mission-drivenleaders who are doing it well.
We ask them what they're doingand how they're doing it so that
you can lead your organizationand your people well.
How many of us believe thatconflict is bad?
How many of us believe thatconflict is bad, that it's
(00:32):
unhealthy and that if there isconflict then things aren't
going as well as they could be?
Today's guest is organizations,to help them find and build
meaningful connections andachieve their highest potential.
She does this as an executivecoach, as a consultant, as the
(00:55):
senior director of executivecoaching and consulting for
Concordia University, Irvine.
She's ICF certified, she is adear friend and she is also
getting a doctorate in what weare talking about today.
So let's jump into ourconversation with Michelle,
(01:23):
Michelle Thompson, one of myabsolute dearest friends.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the Leadwell podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
John, it is so good to be here.
Thanks for the honor ofspending time with you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I don't know about all that, but what I do know is
that I have a huge problem, andit's between you and me.
Honestly, it's a conflict, andwe need to get this resolved and
I'm totally joking, except forthe fact that maybe you do need
to come to the house and havedinner with us, and it's
starting to hurt my feelings,and so I need you to make that
happen.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So may I just make a suggestion.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Please, please.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
It helps if I'm invited over.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, you're telling me that that's the real issue,
that we just haven't put theinvite in the mail yet right
like this is nothing personal.
There's just not been aninvitation yet all right, okay,
so obviously not a real conflict, but a real dinner.
That has to happen, but that iswhere we're going today,
because I I know that you getthis, michelle, I get this all
the time that conflict,especially in the workplace I
(02:28):
mean out of the workplace tooit's messy, it's hard, there's a
lot wrapped up in it and it isone of the things that is most
critical for us to do well, tohave healthy, thriving
relationships and organizations.
So what is going on withconflict and why do we get all
kind of worked up in and aroundhaving to jump into tough
(02:51):
conversations?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
John, I'm so glad you brought this up, and it is fun
to pretend that there's conflictbetween us, but for some people
, conflict just isn't a laughingmatter.
It really brings a lot ofemotion and struggle and worry
inside of them, a lot of anxietyand's a thing to be managed and
dealt with.
In fact, I just like to saythat conflict is something that
(03:30):
you move through with thecourage to correct a situation
or having the courage toconfront a topic that you're
going to move forward in, andtoo many times we put all this
pressure on I have to get itright or I have to be on the
right side of an issue, and thatis what causes the tension for
(03:52):
us within conflict.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, something that I practiced growing up, that I,
if left to my own devices, mightwant to be right on certain
matters, and that all of thosethings.
What you're telling me isthat's part of what gets it to
(04:16):
where I really do have somethingthat I got to come talk to you
about, michelle.
It's heavy, it's bothering me,and now I've played out 17
different scenarios in my head.
I'm sweating, my pulse isracing and I just I can't bring
myself to to go through it, andso I choose the
uncomfortableness for the entirerest of the relationship and
(04:39):
fake smiles because of thosefeelings.
Right, that's what you'resaying because of those feelings
.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Right, that's what you're saying.
Absolutely, you're eitherpicking that I will fake it and
just push through it and ignoreit, or you become a person who
will protest against it and theanger that you have builds up
walls.
That actually destroys therelationship with the other
person.
And so what you're talkingabout is all this tension and
emotional the stories.
(05:05):
I loved it how you said I cameup with 17 stories in my head
about this.
I totally do that.
I have so many conversations inmy head and I say brilliant
things Like I don't know aboutyou, but I say like I have the
best comebacks to people in myhead all the time.
And what is happening is there'sactually a scientific
(05:26):
neuroscience reason for that.
It's because a part of ourbrain is working this topic over
and over and over again it'sthe amygdala.
The amygdala is the part of ourbrain that has our fight,
flight and freeze reaction.
So it takes in information andit quickly wants to make a
decision on whether this is goodflight and freeze reaction.
So it takes in information andit quickly wants to make a
(05:46):
decision on whether this is good, bad.
What should we do?
And so when something feelsuncomfortable, all of a sudden,
what you just talked about doingis that you're going to kind of
flight from it.
You're just going to go awayfrom it in the conversations and
you're just going to act likenothing's happening or that
nothing's wrong.
Other people do the fight andthey want to get angry and you
(06:11):
say what's wrong?
Why is there tension between us?
Like nothing, nothing.
But you know that there's thishard hard part.
You know this line like withthe I'm fine, it's fine, right.
Like I'm fine, there's thattension.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It'm fine.
It's fine Right Like I'm finethere's that tension.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's good, it's all fine.
And then there's the phrasething where people will just
shut down and just be quiet.
The problem with that is is wehave now given something control
of ourselves internally.
That is now also defining therelationship that we have with
another person, and that isharmful, because the conflict
(06:54):
actually is never about theother person.
It might be about the otherperson's opinion, it might be
about the other person's goalsor direction, but the conflict
is typically about a thing thatcan be addressed.
It's not about the human beforeus you because I'm looking at
(07:26):
you.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I feel like it is about you because of something
that you have done or somethingthat you have said.
But what I think I just heardyou say is that it's actually a
reframing, that my problem's notwith you.
But I may have an issue withsomething that you have done or
something that happened inbetween the two of us, or maybe
even happened outside of us, ina different team, inside of our
organization, but it's how wouldI say that better to kind of
(07:51):
bring everyone that's listeninginto it.
It's not about the person.
Help us there.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, it's not.
It's not about the person.
The human before you is aspecial creation, a unique
creation, a person with feelingsand heart and hopes and dreams
and goals.
Just like you, they have hopesand dreams and goals, and just
as you don't want to be attackedfor those things, that human
should not be attacked for thosethings.
(08:19):
And so we, when we start thispart back to your example of I
have a tension and now I've had17 stories go on in my head and
I get mad and I'm frustrated,and there's all this tension and
conflict and I choose not to goforward and deal with it, and
so I run away and I just smileand act like everything is okay.
(08:42):
That is incredibly unhealthyfor you to do, so stop doing
that, john please, let's be real.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You and I have known each other for over a decade and
you have coached, advised,counseled, corrected I can keep
coughing and adding things thatyou have done for me.
This ain't our first rodeo inthis, and this is something that
that you really guided methrough years ago and and how to
approach this in a way where Icould feel as though I could
(09:12):
tell the kind hard truth, whereI could engage to reframe this
as this is what healthyrelationship looks like, not
avoiding it.
So I I promise, when at my bestI am, I'm going in with the
courage that you call us to.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's awesome, John.
You've been a great student.
I'm very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I'm not graduating yet.
I'm still following you aroundand you still have to teach me.
So I'm still the karate kid.
I get to follow you because youare the master.
So here's the thing If youdon't, oh, go ahead.
Sorry, I cut you off.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I was just going to say what you've learned, what
you just talked about learning,then, is being able to come out
of your amygdala.
We talked about the amygdala.
We talked about these reactionsthat actually create an
unhealthy relationship with theother person or other people,
and it creates a tension that'sunhealthy with inside of us.
(10:09):
And what you were talking aboutis you learned to speak truth
and to talk to other people, andwhat happens is we, when we
feel these feelings of I need torun away from this, I just want
to ignore it or I want to fightagainst it, I want to get mad
and just push against thatperson.
We need to take a deep breathand just push against that
(10:31):
person.
We need to take a deep breath,take the pause and say to
ourselves what's reallyhappening here?
What happens to me times is wereact without pondering what's
really the issue.
If we can remember, okay, Ifeel mad at this person, but
it's not actually the person.
What about?
What is being represented?
(10:53):
What's the issue at hand that Ineed to actually be looking at
to be able to confront thatpiece, confronting the yeah, go
ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So that's the.
That's the question, that thathelps frame it and it's not the
first time that you've told methat one and I think what's the
issue?
Right, and I've narrow in andfigure out.
Okay, the issue is that youtalked behind my back.
The issue is that you blew upat me in a phone call.
(11:38):
The issue is that I feel asthough I was misled because it
didn't seem that all of thisinformation matched up with this
information.
Whatever the issue might be,what do I do next?
Right, I feel like I have that,but what am I going to do
(11:59):
inside of this besides justwalking in and being like
Michelle?
Here's the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I think you lied to me.
So what's wrong with that?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
With me saying that I just put it back on the
individual, not the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So let me tweak that just a little bit for you.
If you if you had felt like Ilied to you, for you to come in
and say, hey, michelle, thisincident happened the other day
and, as I've been thinking aboutit, I really was wrestling with
some discomfort within myselfand I realized what happened is
(12:36):
I feel like you lied to me,which then made me feel like I
was losing trust in you, and Ireally think that I want to
resolve that, because the senseof the feeling of the line and
the loss of trust is now theissue and the piece at hand.
You haven't said somethingabout Michelle.
(12:57):
You're a liar.
You didn't call me a liar,right?
You talked about yourexperience of the moment.
Is, you felt, lied to?
That was your experience at themoment.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, outside of you and I kind of going back and
forth, those of us that know youknow that you get called into
these all the time and that youhave a great way of delivering
truth with a big smile and allof us walk away and are like
that was the best ever.
I think I have a lot of work todo, but that was wonderful.
So tell us about a time wherethere was an issue and you got
(13:37):
to help a person, a couple ofpeople, an entire organization
and just walk through that in away that looked and resulted in
a healthy relationship andthriving workplace.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I would love to.
I got called in one time.
I got a phone call from asupervisor and supervisor said I
have two people in my officethat need to be working together
and they cannot work together.
They fight all day long.
They take turns coming into myoffice complaining about the
other one.
It is at the point that if thisdoes not get resolved, I'm
(14:12):
going to have to let one of themgo because it's harming just
even our office culture.
Not only are they not gettingtheir work done, the office
culture is not working.
And I said, well, good grief, Ican't pass up this opportunity.
That sounds like a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Man.
But, michelle, I'm just sittinghere and thinking how many of
us are listening to how you'veset this story up and it's like
well, is she about to starttalking about me?
Is she about to start talkingabout my workplace?
I don't actually remember whenyou came in, but two people need
to work together.
Struggling to work together.
Our inability to work togetheris now impacting others.
(14:53):
And all of a sudden we start tosee how this becomes more than
just one piece of conflictbetween two people.
It's a cultural problem in anorganization.
So I don't believe you'retalking about me or any of the
people listening, but let's keepgoing.
So you get called in.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
You're super excited which is weird, but that's okay,
I'll reassure you, it's notabout you.
But and I did I walked in thereand and here's the other thing
to remember too is these areboth talented people, yet one of
them is about to have to begone because of what they've
done to the culture.
And so I walk in and I sit downwith both of them and I start
(15:34):
with one and say tell me what'shappening.
And she begins to tell me allthe things.
And look, and I said look atthe other person.
And she begins to tell theother person all the things that
she's done wrong, that shecan't stand about her, that how
she's micromanaging her, howshe's not trusting her, how
she's.
It's just a list of things.
(15:55):
And it's you, you, you.
You make life miserable.
You are doing these things youare doing, you are making me
look bad, you are trying to takeover my job.
You don't trust me.
And I said to the other personso that person was kind of in
the fight mode, the other personwas a little bit more in the
flight mode doing the.
Well, I just, I just try to putup with it.
(16:16):
I'm the martyr here and I'mjust trying to make life good
for you and I don't understandwhy you see this as a problem.
I mean, it was watching ithappen in front of me.
It truly was a moment of am Isitting in this real space of
listening to people say thesethings out loud that I know
actually goes on inside ofpeople's heads?
(16:37):
But it was like those 17conversations in real life
coming and they were attackingeach other and I thought to
myself I'm not sure what I'mgoing to do here to help bridge
this, because this is likethey're talking not just
necessarily to each other or ateach other, they're even talking
past each other.
And so what I realized all of asudden is, I thought to myself,
(17:01):
I'm like do they know eachother?
Do they know about each other?
Do they know who each other is?
And I said can we just pausefor a second?
And I said I would love for you.
I looked at one of them and saidI would love for you to tell me
a story about when you wereeight years old.
And she told this amazing storyof what her life was like and
(17:24):
actually some of the challengesthat were happening in her life
at that time and how she had torecover from them.
And then I looked at the otherperson and I said tell me a
story about when you were eightyears old.
And now, all of a sudden, thisperson comes up with a story
from their life and theirexperiences that really had some
(17:45):
hardship to it also and someunique circumstances that were
very different than the otherpersons.
But I watched both of them andtheir faces just soften.
It was literally like ahardness melting off of each of
them.
And I said what did the two ofyou learn about that?
And the one looked at the otherand said I can't believe you
(18:09):
had to grow up in that.
And the other one said oh mygoodness, I can't believe you
had to grow up in that.
And the other one said oh mygoodness, I can't believe you
had to grow up in that.
And then, all of a sudden, westarted this discussion of
knowing each other's humanity orrecognizing that Now I see why
you might behave this way andwhy you might behave that way,
because when you were youngerthat was your coping mechanism.
(18:30):
So now I can appreciate you asa human.
I can say I get it, let's notuse our defense mechanisms.
Let's say that in thissituation, we can choose how we
want to respond.
And they restarted figuring outhow to respond differently to
each other.
The crazy part is I walked outof that meeting a little bit
(19:00):
like okay, that felt a littlesurreal, but I also walked away
going I don't know if that didanything.
And so I came back two weekslater to do a follow-up.
I was going to do a follow-upwith each of them individually
and together.
And they both showed up in theroom together at first and said
we just want to tell you thatever since that meeting, we have
been totally fine, everythingis great.
And I said, if I go to yoursupervisor, is that what your
(19:20):
supervisor will say?
And they're like we think so.
Went to the supervisor andsupervisor's like yeah, I don't
know what happened two weeks ago, but I get to keep two really
great employees now.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Man.
I just sitting here kind ofoverwhelmed at thinking, when we
see the person with whom wehave a problem, all of a sudden
both of the people can go workon the problem and that's
powerful.
Michelle, outside ofidentifying the issue you just
(19:56):
laid out kind of the meat ofwhat's going on in there is that
relationship piece sittingthere and they don't get the
pleasure of having you sit thereand mediate.
How can they work some of thatinto their conflict resolution
when stuff comes up?
And at home at work withfriends, family, colleagues?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a great.
It's a great question.
So one of the things that Itell people to do first and
foremost is to take yourself outof it, because what we do is we
hear things, we feel things andwe make it all about us at
first, and so it's kind of likea shield up experience for us
(20:44):
and I say, well, the first thingyou have to do is go, wait a
second.
This may not all be about me,there's other factors in this,
so don't make it all about you,there's nothing to defend here.
I always tell people put yourfeet on the ground and remember
that the ground is there, it'sstable and you are grounded.
You're not you're you're, youare not going to fall, apart
(21:07):
from whatever's about to happennext, because I think some
people think that they're goingto just crash and burn when they
feel like that tension of theconflict.
So it's not about you.
You're grounded, You're stable,you're okay.
The second part, then, is getcurious.
Get more curious about theother person's side and get
(21:34):
curious about what the story isthat they're hearing and telling
themselves.
So, john, you used the examplea little bit ago of saying,
michelle, you lied to me and nowit's breaking trust and I could
shield up and say well, youknow what's he thinking?
He doesn't know me.
And I could get all in the past.
I would have gotten all likehigh and mighty and told you a
(21:57):
few things, but instead I become.
I become curious, I becomecurious.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Which could need to be happening right Like, let's
just be real.
I might deserve that, but forthe sake of our illustration.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
You might deserve it and you might get it, but I need
proof and reason to give it toyou that way.
So I become curious.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
What I think I heard in that beautiful snarky saying
in there was actually somereally helpful truth is that
there might still be a timecoming where there is an opinion
or a decision or advice that islevied right, hey, this is what
needs to happen, but not firstright.
(22:45):
And a lot of the times we jumpto that Like I just got to let
people know, boom, right and so.
But that's what you're sayingwhen you say get curious.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yes, absolutely, because I can say to you John,
tell me specifically whathappened that gave you the, what
gave you the information thatthat I might have lied to you
and you might say I'm the onethat's coming.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
You're supposed to take care of my conflict and
resolve it.
Now you're making me work.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
No, no, no Conflict has to happen within you know
more than one relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, we have.
Another key critical piece isis it's not.
It's it's not like you and Iare playing, you know, know, hot
potato here it's.
It's this thing where we'retrying to do it together and you
know, hot potato meaning Idon't want to touch it.
(23:42):
Less ping pong, being more ofthis is something that we're
trying to keep this rally goingso that we can get to where we
want to go.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Exactly, exactly, and so you can say something about.
Well, michelle, when you saidthat Taylor Swift was the best
concert you'd ever gone to, Ireally feel like you lied to me,
because I know that you've beento some other great concerts.
(24:11):
You've been with my band in thelocal coffee shop and now I'm
just yes, this is not a strongillustration, but it's okay for
us right now and I could say toyou I might be able to give
clarity to this and say John,you know what I that wasn't
(24:33):
meant to be a lie and I wasmoving really fast and I can
completely understand that maybethe way I said it didn't come
out the way I meant it to and soI just want to apologize for
that.
And what do we need to do?
Like can you accept that fromme and and take that like you?
(24:55):
Now you've heard my part of thestory, you've heard what my
intention was, what my, what Iwas bringing to the table, and
we go back, like you said, theping pong.
We go back and forth until weunderstand the intention, the
core, until we know that we haveresolved the topic at hand,
(25:15):
where you either feel like Ilied to you and now you're
realizing that I haven't, or youmight still feel like I lied to
you and you get.
You finally come to this pieceof I've said my piece and
nothing else is going to happenor change, and I'm going to have
to live with and accept that inthat conflict.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
But ultimately we want the relationship to be okay
and and for you, for you and I,for that scenario.
Right, it was a, it was arelationship based problem.
Uh, that is what felt, like itwas broken.
We've been teed up the trust soyou have given us first going
(25:59):
in and identifying what's theissue, and then we've spent a
lot of time in the middle on howdo I relate to the individual
and how can I keep this focusedin something where the
individual, the humans involved,are working together.
Not everybody's going tonecessarily work towards the
relationship, but a healthierrelationship would be the
(26:21):
outcome.
What is that next question thatyou have for us After we do?
What's the issue?
We got that middle, but there'sstill something I got to think
about when I'm going into thesethings and what's that question
that you have for people?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I think that question that I would have for people is
what do I want the outcome tobe in this, what?
What's the desired outcome hereand how do we accomplish that
desired outcome?
Now, I would suggest that thetop priority in any desired
(26:56):
outcome is protect relationshipand protect the human, protect
the other person's humanity,protect their integrity.
We don't tear people down andthen we work hard at protecting
the relationship and theconnection between us, and then
(27:17):
the desired outcome might bethat we agree to move in a
direction that I chose to move,that you weren't sure if you
wanted to go in, if we werehaving a conflict over a
decision, but then I also decide.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Can you walk us through a little bit more of
that one?
Because now I'm, how do we bothget on the same page around
that one, right, if I have adifferent desired outcome, you
might be coming in with adifferent perspective and a
different desired outcome.
So help me and help everybodykind of build those into kind of
getting to where the desiredoutcome is achieved or where a
(27:58):
new desired outcome is builtbased on what I understand.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, this is where things like compromise come in
to play or negotiation comesinto play in a relational way,
because the most important thingfor me, actually, if you and I
have different opinions, is thatI'm heard.
That I'm heard and I know thatyou know how I feel or what I
(28:24):
think, and even if we are goingto go with your decision, you
still respect me at the end ofthe day because I spoke up for
what I believed and that I wasable to bring it to the table,
and you respect me as a human.
If I have any sense that Ihaven't been heard, that I
(28:46):
haven't been heard, or now youthink less of me because you
didn't agree with my idea, thatstrips away part of my being.
It strips away part of myself-esteem, it brings
self-doubt into play and that iswhat will hinder the
relationship between you and Iand, at the end of the day, it's
always about the relationshipthat we want to save.
(29:08):
If we are talking about a topicand we're at the topic and
you're seeing it as red and I'mseeing it as blue and we can't
find a way to compromise, for itto be purple, that that might
be an ideal thing for us tofight to shade of purple in
(29:28):
there, um, but if I've beenheard and you say to me,
michelle, I really think this isthe direction we're going to
need to go.
As long as I've heard that, I'mokay going that direction.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
And how much does that in you play out to other
people in terms of kind of ourneeding to be heard, to be
valued, to be participatory indecisions, especially things
that impact our work, our lives,our relationships?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
relationships.
Yeah, this is every human being.
This is a basic need for everyhuman being.
I don't care what type of houseyou live in, I don't care what
economic status you are, I don'tcare what country, what your
(30:31):
background is all of thosethings it always comes down to.
As human beings we have aheart's desire to be seen and to
be loved and to be connected.
It's how we are wired, and soif I can honor those things with
whoever I'm with, theneverything else becomes just
overflow out of thatrelationship.
(30:51):
Those are the things that Iprotect and I don't let get
damaged.
And if I do damage them, it ismy responsibility to go back and
say I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So take it to someone who's listening, that's leading
a team and they know thatthey've been avoiding, uh,
conflict not intentionally, butfor one's own comfort or for
artificial harmony and and theyneed to go have a with a team
member, or maybe they need tohave a one-up kind of level up
(31:26):
conversation with their leader.
And now the stakes are feelingjust a little bit higher because
compensation could be involved.
My employment, I at least, feellike it's on the line every
time I'm getting ready to gohave one of these conversations.
Help that person navigate itand tell them why it is so
(31:46):
critical for them, regardless ofif it's a team member or a team
leader, that they have to talkto.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, this is one way that you do it is you become
more vulnerable and you set thestage when I come to your house
for dinner, you're going to seta table.
I can't.
I can't wait either.
You're going to set a table sothat we have a place to sit down
(32:17):
and to eat and to do this, youknow, to have our conversation
and all those things.
So if I, if I need to go in andhave a conversation with
someone, especially if I havebeen avoiding having conflict or
a hard conversation withsomeone, I can go in and say I'm
coming in, john, to have adiscussion with you, and I want
(32:38):
to tell you that I'm a littlebit uncomfortable about having
this discussion.
I but I believe that it'sreally right for me to have this
discussion because I want ourrelationship to be one of
connection and for us to getreally good things done here,
and if I don't face this awkwardconversation, we're going to
(33:02):
miss that opportunity.
Are you okay with me tryingthis new skill that I'm going to
put out here and just beinghonest with the person?
Like I'm going to do something,I'm uncomfortable with it and
you know what I might?
I might mess it up a little bitfor the first few times.
If you are a leader and you goin and say that to one of your,
(33:24):
one of your direct reports, oneof your direct reports, they
will sit there dumbfoundedbecause they will not know what
to do with the amount of respectyou have just given them.
If you go and do that to asupervisor, that supervisor is
going to be dumbfounded becausethey are going to be in awe of
(33:47):
the courage that you have tocome in and give voice to
something that you think isvaluable and important and
that's only going to build trustwith them.
All of these things startbuilding trust when you have
those conversations.
So go, set the table.
Set the table and say I don'tknow how this is going to go.
Then that table is set and thenyou serve the meal, and that
(34:11):
serving that meal is.
This is where I'm struggling.
This is what I'm feeling.
This is what I'm thinking.
I own the feelings, I own thethoughts, I own the reactions
that I'm having.
I never say you made me feelthis way.
I feel this way when you snapback at me.
(34:33):
I feel this way when I don'thave a clear list of
expectations and then I am heldresponsible for something.
I think that I am not doing agood job when I hear these types
of words.
So you're aligning yourresponse to a certain action.
(34:57):
You're not attributing it tothe person love the set the
table analogy.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I think about and use that same type of analogy and
say you know, when you're on adate, it's great to sit across
from each other and you get thesalt and pepper in the middle.
It's awkward on a date ifyou're the two people sitting on
the same side in the boothlooking out at everybody else.
However, in conflict, when weset the table and we put the
(35:29):
issue in the middle, if we missthe issue at all, it's going to
bounce off and hit the otherperson and so, in conflict, we
do actually sit on the exactsame side of the table, knee to
knee, shoulder to shoulder, andwe both point ourselves at the
issue, just like you are saying,so that if and when I do in
fact miss, I'm not missing atthe person.
I'm missing trying to get tothe problem, but doing it in a
(35:53):
way where I'm working with theperson.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
You got it, that's.
That's absolutely what it is.
And sometimes it's okay, in themidst of that, if you're
sitting at the table there onthat same site to look at the
person and say you need toexcuse me for a moment, I'm
going to walk away for a moment,it's okay for us to say I need
a pause in this discussion and Ican come back to it in a little
(36:17):
bit, because none of us canassume that we can keep
everything thinking wisetogether all at one time.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, the somebody that that you and I would both
know because because it isthrough Concordia came in and
she was so, so proud and she didawesome at it and courageous
conversation and just going allin on this conflict stuff that
she needed to have.
And I said, wonderful, how'd itgo?
And she said I was exhausted.
It was two and a half hours andI said, whoa, I'd be exhausted
(36:49):
too.
I was like I don't know if Icould do any of that for more
than five, 15 minutes.
So here's what you've walked usthrough.
Conflict is necessary and it isgood to create healthy
relationships, thrivingorganizations, that we approach
(37:11):
it, having conflict about anissue not focused on the human,
the individual on the other side, working together in a way to
build relationship, into part ofour resolution.
We ask ourself what's the issueand we make sure that we know
what the desired outcome is.
(37:32):
What else do we need to know sothat we can walk out of here
and start courageously engagingin conflict to make
relationships and workplacesbetter?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I think the thing that you need to know is that
this is a skill.
It's not something that justexpect to make some mistakes and
expect others to be wonderingwhat in the world's happening to
(38:13):
you and be okay with that.
It is like if you were going torun a marathon.
You're not going to go out onthe first day and run 26 miles.
You've got to build up to those26 miles you got to.
You know, for me, I'd have to,like, run a yard first before I
could run.
You know much further, and sotake the small steps and be kind
(38:40):
to yourself.
Be kind to yourself as youpractice these things, but I
promise you that practicingthese things will begin to
release the tension that we feelwhen conflict arises.
I find myself rarely having aspike an emotional spike when
(39:02):
there's tension in a room ortension with me and another
person, Because I just know thatif I take a breath, we will
walk through it, and that hascome because of having to
continue to practice thesethings.
I will promise you that back inmy day, I would hit conflict
(39:23):
and I would come out of the likelike it was a sprint, Like I
was, like I was up to theceiling and, in a heartbeat, um,
fighting it, and it is such arelief and such a gift to go.
Okay, we'll walk through thisand I can be calm, but it's
taken a journey to get there.
It's taken practice, it's takenpeople who love me and when I'm
(39:47):
there I find that out of theconflict I actually get better
results and continue to grow,because the conflict has
actually been a benefit and nota harm to me.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So I said, I've known Michelle for some time.
She is not new in this rodeoand the goal that I had, after
getting some great coaching fromher, was that I was going to
disagree with an idea, anindividual or a piece of
information every week for sixmonths, and that was a goal that
I worked through, and 10 yearslater, it's still not
instinctual.
(40:24):
I don't just go around lookingfor all of these things.
Instinctual.
I don't just go around lookingfor all of these things.
However, it is much morepracticed and it is what is able
to be engaged with in a waywhere I can hold on to the human
and still go at whatever theissue is, and so I would
encourage all of you to keep upwith Michelle, to connect with
(40:47):
Michelle Honestly.
You just need to come toConcordia University, irvine, so
that you can go through aprogram with Michelle.
That would be wonderful.
Michelle, before you go, I'mgoing to ask you, just like I
ask everybody else, what does itmean for you to lead well?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
for you to lead well.
For me to lead well is to holda vision in my hands and then
bring people along who I knowthat they are the ones who are
the secret sauce and the successto that vision, and I want to
(41:29):
open up opportunities for them,to open up space for them to be
able to live their wildestdreams, to live beyond what they
ever thought that they could do.
Let them have a goal andachieve it and all drive in
towards that vision.
It is about creating people tobe more than what they ever
expected they could be.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Said by a true leader my friends, have courage,
engage in conflict to buildrelationship through the
resolutions that you settogether.
Thank you so much for being apart of the show today, michelle
.
I love you, my friend.
I can't wait to have you overfor dinner and we can start the
marathon training.
You can chase my three childrenaround our yard and we'll just
(42:11):
start there and go from there toeverybody listening.
Thank you so much.
Make sure you check out,michelle, and until we see you
next time, be well, lead on andGod bless.
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