May 21, 2024 • 29 mins
Have you ever considered how the patchwork of your identity can shape your prowess as a leader? Nicole Schultz, a vanguard in the world of assurance and risk management, joins us to share her rich insights. Together, we unveil how the threads of age, gender, and ethnicity have colored her leadership experience, providing a tapestry of lessons on inclusivity and risk management. Nicole's unique viewpoint invites us to peer into the leadership labyrinth, where our personal stories weave into our professional identities, and how a strong grasp of our biases can transform the way we steer our teams and organizations.
As we navigate the complex intersection of leadership and identity, Nicole and I unravel the ways our personal narratives can illuminate strengths and spotlight risks. We converse about the delicate art of maintaining discipline and consistency in our leadership, especially during pivotal life changes. The potency of storytelling, as a tool for risk management and professional development, is spotlighted, highlighting how vulnerability can bond us and mentorship can shape us. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom on cultivating an authentic approach to leadership, where intentionality and adaptability reign supreme.
Rounding out our exploration, we hone in on the art of risk management within the business leadership arena. The episode culminates with a heartfelt acknowledgment of the importance of mindfulness and the ripple effect of our choices as leaders. With Nicole's guidance, we learn how to lead with intention and integrity, fostering courage and authenticity. We part with a message of empowerment, beckoning you to lead with confidence and consciousness, embracing every shade of your story. Join us on this enlightening journey where personal identity meets professional mastery.
Resource file: Risk Reflections and Mitigations
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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.
Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.
For more information visit https://leadwell.com
The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.
In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.
Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Kidwell (00:00):
Do you ever ask yourself what could go wrong?
Of course you do.
As leaders, we think about thatoften, whether it's with a new
business, whether it's whenwe're rolling out a new project
or even just engaging in apartnership.
What could go wrong, however?
Do you ever stop and thinkabout that for yourself, with
your leadership, with the peopleyou lead?
(00:21):
What could go wrong?
That's what we are talkingabout today with Nicole Schultz.
She is an assurance and riskmanagement leader and she has
built a framework to help usthink through how do we mitigate
and manage our leadership risks, what we bring to the table so
that we can support our team andour organizations as well as
(00:42):
possible.
Welcome to the Leadwell podcast,the podcast where we interview
mission-driven leaders who aredoing it well.
We ask them what they're doingand how they're doing it so that
you can lead your business andyour people well.
Nicole, thank you so much forjoining us on the podcast.
(01:11):
I've been really lookingforward to connect with you.
We have a mutual friend thatbrought us together.
We're preparing for this and Ithought you know what.
This is going to be great.
What could go wrong?
Right?
Nicole Schultz (01:22):
What could go wrong.
I really appreciate it, John.
And yeah, just the opportunityto talk about exploring risks.
It's something that's near anddear to my heart and I feel like
it really came together nicelywhen I was thinking about my
leadership practice and wantingto grow as an inclusive leader.
What could go wrong.
Jon Kidwell (01:43):
Exactly, and that's what kind of drew me in as your
particular lens on this and inthe audit and the risk
management space, and how youstarted to apply this to
yourself into leading.
And so you know, remind me andgive others a little bit of that
backstory that really startedyou to look at paying attention
(02:04):
to managing your leadershiprisks.
Nicole Schultz (02:09):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
So you know, from myperspective, where did this idea
kind of come from.
You know, as I was growing inmy own job and role
responsibilities, especially inthe risk insurance space, a huge
part of our work is connectingwith other leaders to discuss
(02:29):
the risks or the what could gowrong and what are you going to
do about.
It related, you know, to theprocesses and the systems that
were under their care.
And you know, as I started tothink about my own leadership
practice, I realized a similarsort of risk management approach
could help me.
You know, bringing thattogether and part of that, you
(02:53):
know what was driving that wasthere.
You know, when you become sortof a titled leader, one of my
passions was really becoming aninclusive leader, building a
high performing team, and someof that was grounded in just a
belief that maybe I didn'talways have a seat at the table
or my own sort of internalmonologue not belonging at the
(03:17):
table, and I just felt like Ihad to kind of get curious and
really honest with myself aboutperhaps the pieces of my
identity that could show up asthose sort of what could go
wrong and just you know, on areally basic level, there are
seasons where I would be sort ofthe youngest or the only female
(03:41):
, or sometimes the only personof color, and there were so many
other dimensions of my identitythat could influence how I
showed up as a leader, and youknow I saw leadership really as
a true privilege and to become atruly inclusive leader, I had
to kind of get a handle on that?
(04:01):
so that I could also, you know,extend that to those who are
under my care to help themmanage their career and their
possible identity related totheir career.
Jon Kidwell (04:12):
And so that's how all of this started to come
together.
So you started to mention a fewand some I can connect with and
relate with, like age orpotential experiences, as you
start to take on responsibilityand others I can't, and you call
(04:35):
them risks.
And just help me as you thinkthrough what risk is, because
part of it I was thinking wasthese could also be strengths,
right, like these are definitelypotential strengths that I
bring in there and risks.
So help me kind of follow alongwith you as you look at these
(04:55):
and why you call them risks.
Nicole Schultz (04:59):
Yeah, it's interesting For me.
I was thinking about thosedimensions of my identity in the
context of when I talk about itas a risk of what could go
wrong, uh, when I maybe show upin a certain way with an
external, with an externalcontext and helping maybe others
manage their bias and helpingme check my own bias, and you're
(05:23):
100% right, like I think eachrisk presented an opportunity
and each of those thingspotentially could be strengths.
But if I was sort of eyes wideopen to the nuance of how I
showed up in differentsituations, would I also be able
to be just a bit more nuancedin my leadership style by
(05:44):
looking at these things as againthe potential of what could go
wrong.
There's always the outside riskand the potential of what could
go right, but having some ofthose mitigations kind of
thought through around what arethe opportunities to mitigate
and what?
Jon Kidwell (06:01):
are some of the upside risks, if you will.
Nicole Schultz (06:05):
That could materialize from how I show up
as a leader.
And the whole thought around.
It was just again to get morecurious and more honest about
myself.
Jon Kidwell (06:18):
How did I want to show up?
Nicole Schultz (06:19):
as a leader.
Jon Kidwell (06:20):
And could I be just a little more disciplined in my
framework of thinking and thethings that I wanted to do or
support, maybe I wanted to reachout to.
And just a little bit moreresistance to that.
Nicole Schultz (06:33):
It was a bit more discipline and more
repeatable.
Jon Kidwell (06:38):
I love that.
I love the fact that as you'retaking on more responsibility,
you're also bringing in so muchmore reflection and you've
shared and I got the opportunityto look at kind of that
framework.
So with permission, I'm goingto lay it out there and then
please correct me where I'mwrong and help explain all of
that to each of us.
(06:58):
So you start with kind of whatare some of those inherit risks
to yourself, to you as theleader?
What are some mitigations thatyou can take for that risk?
What do those look like?
Some behaviors that correspondto help you mitigate that?
(07:18):
And then what is your story?
And so there are five differentparts to it.
What is your story, and sothere are five different parts
to it.
Can you help reframe and kindof communicate through those
five-part framework better thanI did?
For sure, no, it's exactlyright, josh.
Nicole Schultz (07:37):
It's not a five-step process but it is sort
of a five-step process and ifyou're sort of in the nerdy risk
management space, some of thosethings might resonate with you.
So just very simply in like acommon sort of risk management
activity.
One of the first things thatyou do is a bit of a scan and
(07:57):
you identify in this case thestory that's surfacing with some
of your personal identity risk.
But if you were managing aprocess or system, you would
identify in an environmentalscan like what are some of the
potential threats or thepotential what could go wrongs?
that might impact your processor system.
(08:19):
Why you?
Jon Kidwell (08:20):
know why not do that, for leadership, why, you
know?
Why not do that for leadership?
Nicole Schultz (08:27):
And so that's what I did.
Is I just sort of looked at mystory and said what are some of
the things that are surfacingfor me, whether they're just my
internal monologue, or they'regrounded in external data points
, or they're things that arejust very new to?
Jon Kidwell (08:36):
me.
Nicole Schultz (08:37):
Those were the three things that I sort of
focused on in terms of thethings in my story that I felt
like were resuracing as personalidentity with.
So that's kind of that.
First thing is just again beingcourageous and curious to lean
into our story a little bit,each of us, to say what are some
of the things that could maybego wrong and that could include,
(09:03):
you know, a strength overdone,because sometimes something that
could go right but somethingthat's overdone, that becomes a
risk.
And it just helped me andsaying, hey, what are some of
the things that could go wrongbased on my dimensions of
(09:28):
identity, based on some internaland external context that might
impact my leadership.
Jon Kidwell (09:36):
So if I'm sitting here doing this for myself, I'm
starting to think about somethings and maybe, like others
that are listening, they mighteven be thinking about different
things at different points intheir career.
So, listening to you, I'mthinking there's a John years
ago that is a young executive,doesn't have any tenure, has a
(10:00):
lot of hunger and drive, has alot of hunger and drive.
I'm not yet a parent and andthere are kind of this other
factor of I'm I'm outside to theorganization that I'm in, I'm
new, right, I'm the new guy onthe block, and so all of these
I'm starting to think through asmaybe I should have at the time
(10:21):
uh, that these are potentialrisks, right?
Is that some of what you aretalking about?
And the one that comes up to memost is because I feel it now,
being a parent, is this idea ofkind of me at work pre children,
me at work post children, andeven how some of those
priorities and managing thosestart to change.
(10:42):
Is that the type of stuff thatyou're talking about?
Nicole Schultz (10:55):
That is exactly it.
And what is really cool andeven just this level of sharing
and as I've kind of worked withother groups on this is that
story all of a sudden, instantlyfor me creates a connection.
Because you know, nicole, 12years ago pre-parent, newer
leader, sort of a bit outside ofthe leadership group in one of
(11:19):
the last organizations I had theprivilege of leading in and as
I started to think about this,instead of getting sort of down
about those things, I started tothink about well, we work with
other leaders on their processesand systems.
This is really just something Iwant to cultivate for my own
(11:41):
sort of process and system, ifyou will.
Why don't I start to look atthat from a bit more of a risk
management lens?
And it took a while for me tokind of buy in, but when I
started to realize that itreally could work, it started to
help me then lead to the nextstep of what are those potential
(12:05):
mitigations and starting to getclear on them.
And part of story sharing isthat we start to identify with
other people and hear whatthey've maybe done to manage
that risk of.
You know, young executive, john, pre-parent, you know what kind
(12:25):
of showed up and worked for himas a mitigation and part of
that, story sharing helps usjust accelerate what are some
maybe key things we need to doto mitigate that risk, and so
that next step is just startingto get clear on.
You know what are somepotential mitigations when
you're showing up as that newleader For me back then it was
(12:47):
sort of being one of the quoteunquote youngest leaders.
So try to figure out what,beyond my performance currency,
can help me establish mycredibility and maybe some
relational density, maybe askingfor some mentorship or
sponsorship.
But instead of being, I guess,a bit haphazard about it, it's
(13:10):
just being a bit more clear onthose are maybe some things that
I need to lean into to helpmitigate the risk of being, you
know, the youngest or justoutside of that leadership group
.
Um, and so it's just adifferent way of thinking about
how to manage those sort ofagain.
What could go wrong?
Jon Kidwell (13:33):
yeah it, yeah, that's so interesting.
It makes me think of things thathonestly that I stepped in and
then got some great feedback andthen usually went into building
some sort of I'll use your wordmitigation strategy around that
ie being extremely driven andhard pressing and probably
(13:56):
unfortunately putting some ofthe work above the people and
not having this level ofunderstanding and empathy for
people in different stages oflife.
And you step in it and then kindof on the backside, grateful
for good feedback and greatpeople around me that are like
you know you should really bethinking about things like this
(14:17):
and then they turn into someonewho is now an advisor, can give
that perspective and we'regetting ready to rock and roll.
And it's like have I coveredall of the bases here in terms
of thinking about some of thesedifferent things that may show
up or communicating to some ofthese different areas and kind
(14:37):
of as I was listening tosponsorship, mentorship, folks
that can give you differentperspective of things you have
not yet gone through.
I think about the fact that Iended up with an individual
inside the organization who wasmore tenure to me, who had kids,
who was a wonderful kind ofcounselor and guide to say here
(15:00):
are some things for you toconsider that you yet haven't
experienced in life, and itwould be great because you'll be
a better leader as you thinkabout these things.
Nicole Schultz (15:11):
Yeah, I know that's interesting, because
that's really what it was for meas well and I think some of
that is just natural, as we andI think as you move up, maybe an
organization is hierarchicalleadership I like, I I always
like to maybe ascribe a littleto that leader class.
(15:33):
I don't like it currentlyregardless of what we do in an
organization.
We should ask you it.
But.
Jon Kidwell (15:41):
I found that if I got a bit more, vulnerable or
curious with myself.
Nicole Schultz (15:46):
I was asking different questions.
And I can't say if I celebratedmy nations or not, but I know
that I was more disciplinedabout the type of nation I was
for or the type of sponsorshipmaybe completely different from
my gender, where I wouldn't havehad the courage to ask before
(16:17):
because I felt like maybe I dolong, but I recognized through
some of this process that peoplereally want to lean in and
people who are almost like onpaper, sort of opposite.
For you are more than willing, Ifind, to share their stories,
share their lessons and I dofeel like there's parts of my
(16:42):
career and even just my sort ofattitude towards building a life
and making sort of my work andlife more integrated, that work
accelerated, having these greatmentors and sponsors who were
willing to share that with me.
Jon Kidwell (17:04):
Yeah, do you have you found and do you think that
others find similarity as towhat you and I have even said
here today?
You said I found that peoplewant to lean in right,
regardless of how much we may ormay not perceive that we are
alike and kind of share some ofthose kind of overlapping pieces
(17:26):
of ourselves.
Do you find that once you getinto there there is a lot more
that you are able to relate tothan originally kind of assumed?
yeah, almost, yeah, almostalways and that's what I, that's
what I.
Nicole Schultz (17:41):
There's that, there's that beautiful concept
of just like the strangers andthere's something there's
something really about, aboutkind of sharing, sharing your
risk management risk managementstory.
Jon Kidwell (17:51):
Again, just a bit of a risk, like for me, like for
sharing a sharing a bit of arisk.
Nicole Schultz (17:53):
Like for me, like for sharing a sharing a bit
of your story and your storyand how I manage my risk, the
more I have done this or evenjust my own life been courageous
to somebody who I felt likegosh, I would really just really
just like on paper.
Jon Kidwell (18:11):
Could not be more on our skills, our style,
dimensions of identity, justeverything.
Nicole Schultz (18:19):
And then realizing that, realizing that,
we're more like than we aredifferent.
And and um um that idea, thatidea of just scanning our sort
of identity actually.
Actually is it almost a bit ofan equalizer.
That way, it brings a lot ofpeople to the table who maybe
(18:46):
felt a bit of shame orindifference into an inclusion,
the context of the context ofthings that can feel a bit
polarizing and this just feltlike there was a lot of
reciprocity.
Jon Kidwell (19:01):
I just personally for me it really helped like I
said in my own career and sortof starting to connect with as
one of those patients.
Nicole Schultz (19:13):
You know the next step around kind of
figuring out what you need to doto make those medications
happen.
There was a number, there was anumber of things for me that
surfaced, as many sponsorshipand sponsorship and I knew
that's something I needed torespond and respond, and more
courage, and more courage interms of just willingness to ask
(19:34):
or other part the other part ofit.
For me that surfaced was what Icall a bit of, I call a bit of
like, when we talk about, whenwe talk about medications, I
kind of put strategic, strategic, those kind of terms just kind
of turn around.
But I throw it around, but Iwas really, was really struck by
(19:55):
just needing to get a bit morecrystal clear.
Jon Kidwell (20:00):
What I saw as my students, what.
Nicole Schultz (20:01):
I mean by that is for me figuring out what sort
of leader I wanted to be in thecontext of perhaps what
leadership principles resonatedwith me.
And then coming up with my ownsort of personalized lens of
that.
And so I did some work.
Leadership the rubber hit theroad.
(20:25):
For me it was taking someleadership.
Taking some leadership In mycase it was from the Kuzism
poster, from the Kuzism posterthat just resonated 12 years ago
, and so I always kind of hungon to it and then, over time
coming, and then over timecoming, um, um and again, it
feels and again it feels a bitlike it did help me just get,
(20:46):
just get a bit more, a bit moreclear on, clear on.
Jon Kidwell (20:50):
I wanted to show up as I wanted to show up as a
leader.
Nicole Schultz (20:56):
And I know right now it sounds like this is sort
of a lot about me, but a pieceof it was so that I could show
up as a more inclusive, a bitmore nuanced and being able to
help others who are maybedealing with the same sorts of
things or they have a certainlevel how they're going to
(21:18):
belong how they're going toprogress or supporting others
and wanting to reach.
Whatever they have to find istheir potential.
Jon Kidwell (21:30):
Yeah, I love how you really start with
self-leadership and even insideof that, you keep turning
towards kind of leading othersright and kind of turning it to
that, both in terms of you say,this started with looking at
(21:50):
kind of my own and managingrisks, but you but you also
teach this, you share this, youuse it as a way to help others.
And I think it's one of thoseareas that every single one of
us can connect with because, ifwe're being honest with
ourselves, we are all managingrisks all the time, as, as a
level of leader, with theexpertise that I'm bringing or
(22:14):
that I'm not bringing, to agiven situation, to my time with
family, to the risk ofprioritizing the wrong thing,
and all of it.
It is a concept that everysingle one of us can get.
I heard you say start strategicwith what are some of those
(22:34):
guiding principles for you thatyou need to be aware of and that
are going to also help kind ofguide and direct and lead you.
So take us through some ofthose other kind of mitigations
and behaviors then, as we startto bring this into, okay, how
does it impact, you know, myday-to-day, week-to-week life
and leadership.
Nicole Schultz (22:54):
Yeah, so as I started to break it leadership.
Yeah, so, yeah so, as I startedto break it down like it's that
strategic bit of that strategicbit of how do I want to show up
?
Jon Kidwell (23:02):
And how do I want to show up?
And those things just helpedground me.
And now even, and now, even buteven in the early days.
It's just really.
How did I want?
Nicole Schultz (23:11):
to show up authentically and courageously
when things felt off,courageously when things fell
off course.
When things fell off course, Icould go and that's more
tactically and then moretactically, as I am a bit of an
audit, a bit of an audit Istarted to set I started to just
a few objectives and keyresults.
A few objectives and results forwhat were those around, what
were those things I was going todo?
And they didn't have to begrandiose, they didn't have to
(23:34):
be started out as things.
They just started out.
And so one of the things I wasencouraged to do by one of my
mentors.
To do by one of my mentors wasjust the intentionality of
reaching out whether it was tosponsor somebody or whether it
was to sponsorship buying myself-grown or a sponsorship to
get myself grown and as a leaderI think.
(23:55):
And as a leader I think, so wecan get busy.
So everybody's busy,everybody's life is busy Some of
those micro behaviors some ofthose micro behaviors not
everybody.
Jon Kidwell (24:08):
Not everybody has that sort of in their ecosystem
data.
Nicole Schultz (24:13):
You know, ecosystem data is just around.
And so for me it was justaround making sure that I was
being intentional aboutsponsorship, whether it was
speaking on behalf of somebody.
Speaking on behalf of somebodyso that I could help them in my
care, or being intentional abouttheir career or being
(24:33):
intentional with somebody who'ssomebody who's you know,
somebody who's looking for someadvice or a way forward, but
just being intentional andstarting to kind of just
starting to kind of trackhonestly, john like what almost
track, honestly, john life and Istarted to.
It sounds cheesy because itsounds cheesy, I guess I feel
like.
Jon Kidwell (24:53):
I guess I feel like , does it feel a bit
over-engineered?
Does it feel a bitover-engineered?
Nicole Schultz (24:57):
It's just the intentionality.
It's just the intentionality,really trying to authentically
lean into the leader,authentically lean into the
leader.
Make those things translate.
Make those things, just thesebroad manifesto types, broad
manifesto types.
What are some behaviors I wantto, what are some behaviors I
want to, what are some behaviorsI want to?
And then that's how it kind ofstarted and then that's how it
(25:19):
kind of started coming to thismore tactical, okay, so what are
some of my objectives and keyresults maybe it's defined
cadence, and then maybe it'sdefined cadence and then
sponsorship.
Jon Kidwell (25:30):
What are some of your behaviors.
Nicole Schultz (25:32):
So I are some of the behaviors.
So I'm coaching honestly, whatare some behaviors I want to
start?
What are some of the behaviors?
So I'm some of the behaviors.
So I'm coaching honestly, whatare some behaviors I want to
start?
What are some behaviors I wantto start working on to help
level up my game.
So working on to help level upmy game so I can a leader that a
leader again.
I feel like it's a privilege tolead again.
I feel like it's a privilege tohave more impact and to have
(25:53):
more impact people's careershave more impact on their life.
People's careers have moreimpact on their life.
Many of the things I reallyhold that as a message.
I really hold that.
Jon Kidwell (26:02):
I just I really wanted to.
Nicole Schultz (26:04):
I just I really wanted to.
You know, for the people undermy care, try and show up For the
people under my care try andshow up and it was really
supportive of where.
Helping them was reallysupportive of where, and then
operationally and then toexecute operationally is just
starting to execute monitoring.
Jon Kidwell (26:19):
You're not going to get everything right monitoring
and you're not going to geteverything.
Nicole Schultz (26:22):
Never better and to be that person, but knowing
when to course to be that personand I just feel like a bit more
of a disciplined and I justfeel like a bit more of a just
um help me do that.
Jon Kidwell (26:32):
Um, maybe a bit help me do that, then I would
have been maybe a bit morequickly than.
Nicole Schultz (26:36):
I would have in the past, because I wasn't as
aware of the things I wanted todo.
Jon Kidwell (26:42):
I heard and was reading something the other day
that we are always operating inthe now and in the not yet.
If we choose to kind of put outthere what is that ideal, what
is that target, what's thatvision for the future of those
guiding principles, and we can'tact in the not yet If we choose
to kind of put out there whatis that ideal, what is that
target, what's that vision forthe future of those guiding
principles, and we can't act inthe not yet, we can only act in
the now.
And I think, for all of uslistening, we were able to
(27:03):
really get a very helpful designon how do we manage some of
these risks, how do we look outand see some of the guiding
principles, some of the thingsthat we want, the things that we
want for our team, the thingsthat we want to be aware of for
ourselves, bringing them downinto the behaviors that you
outlined.
So, if you've listened today, atakeaway something to do is to
(27:27):
go sit on this for just a minuteand think about what are some
of those pieces of yourself andwhere you are in work and some
of those pieces of yourself andwhere you are in work and some
of those risks to manage andoutline.
What do you want this to looklike, what are some of the goals
and aspirations, and then goback through what Nicole said
around some of those behaviorsto help operationalize it.
(27:48):
And you also have a risk auditorthat did, in fact, say you're
not going to get a perfect, andso we, so we are keeping that on
record, uh, and I'm going tojust carry that with me wherever
I go, cause I am also one thatuh has so much fun with all of
my risk friends.
Uh, that, uh, that loveperfection.
So you said it best, nicole,I'm keeping it.
(28:10):
Thank you so much.
And, uh, before we go in,before you give us final
thoughts, I do want to ask you aquestion, because we ask
everybody and you've just givenus this great kind of framework
to think about how to lead well,especially when it comes to our
own risks.
But for you, nicole, what doesit mean to you to lead well?
Nicole Schultz (28:29):
I love the question, john, and I think I
love the question, john, and Ithink for me it's really not
grandiose, it's really just thebelief that if I can support a
few people and realize theirpotential, and doing that in a
(28:50):
courageous and authentic way,then for me I would have led
well then, courageous andauthentic way led well for me.
Jon Kidwell (28:56):
I would have led well.
I love it.
Courageous, authenticdeveloping of others to reach
potential.
So amazing.
Nicole, thank you so much forcoming on, for sharing.
You know how we all of us haveit.
How can we manage and bemindful, through all the risks
that we bring, to be able toserve people, to do business and
leadership extremely well.
(29:17):
I am grateful for it.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
Nicole Schultz (29:20):
Thank you for spending the time with me, John.
Thank you for spending yourtime with me.
John and we have risk, and howthat translates into the end of
our leadership.
Jon Kidwell (29:32):
Love it and everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningNicole and I, and until next
time, be well lead on, and Godbless.
Do you ever ask yourself what could go wrong?
Of course you do.
As leaders, we think about thatoften, whether it's with a new
business, whether it's whenwe're rolling out a new project
or even just engaging in apartnership.
What could go wrong, however?
Do you ever stop and thinkabout that for yourself, with
your leadership, with the peopleyou lead?
(00:21):
What could go wrong?
That's what we are talkingabout today with Nicole Schultz.
She is an assurance and riskmanagement leader and she has
built a framework to help usthink through how do we mitigate
and manage our leadership risks, what we bring to the table so
that we can support our team andour organizations as well as
(00:42):
possible.
Welcome to the Leadwell podcast,the podcast where we interview
mission-driven leaders who aredoing it well.
We ask them what they're doingand how they're doing it so that
you can lead your business andyour people well.
Nicole, thank you so much forjoining us on the podcast.
(01:11):
I've been really lookingforward to connect with you.
We have a mutual friend thatbrought us together.
We're preparing for this and Ithought you know what.
This is going to be great.
What could go wrong?
Right?
Nicole Schultz (01:22):
What could go wrong.
I really appreciate it, John.
And yeah, just the opportunityto talk about exploring risks.
It's something that's near anddear to my heart and I feel like
it really came together nicelywhen I was thinking about my
leadership practice and wantingto grow as an inclusive leader.
What could go wrong.
Jon Kidwell (01:43):
Exactly, and that's what kind of drew me in as your
particular lens on this and inthe audit and the risk
management space, and how youstarted to apply this to
yourself into leading.
And so you know, remind me andgive others a little bit of that
backstory that really startedyou to look at paying attention
(02:04):
to managing your leadershiprisks.
Nicole Schultz (02:09):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
So you know, from myperspective, where did this idea
kind of come from.
You know, as I was growing inmy own job and role
responsibilities, especially inthe risk insurance space, a huge
part of our work is connectingwith other leaders to discuss
(02:29):
the risks or the what could gowrong and what are you going to
do about.
It related, you know, to theprocesses and the systems that
were under their care.
And you know, as I started tothink about my own leadership
practice, I realized a similarsort of risk management approach
could help me.
You know, bringing thattogether and part of that, you
(02:53):
know what was driving that wasthere.
You know, when you become sortof a titled leader, one of my
passions was really becoming aninclusive leader, building a
high performing team, and someof that was grounded in just a
belief that maybe I didn'talways have a seat at the table
or my own sort of internalmonologue not belonging at the
(03:17):
table, and I just felt like Ihad to kind of get curious and
really honest with myself aboutperhaps the pieces of my
identity that could show up asthose sort of what could go
wrong and just you know, on areally basic level, there are
seasons where I would be sort ofthe youngest or the only female
(03:41):
, or sometimes the only personof color, and there were so many
other dimensions of my identitythat could influence how I
showed up as a leader, and youknow I saw leadership really as
a true privilege and to become atruly inclusive leader, I had
to kind of get a handle on that?
(04:01):
so that I could also, you know,extend that to those who are
under my care to help themmanage their career and their
possible identity related totheir career.
Jon Kidwell (04:12):
And so that's how all of this started to come
together.
So you started to mention a fewand some I can connect with and
relate with, like age orpotential experiences, as you
start to take on responsibilityand others I can't, and you call
(04:35):
them risks.
And just help me as you thinkthrough what risk is, because
part of it I was thinking wasthese could also be strengths,
right, like these are definitelypotential strengths that I
bring in there and risks.
So help me kind of follow alongwith you as you look at these
(04:55):
and why you call them risks.
Nicole Schultz (04:59):
Yeah, it's interesting For me.
I was thinking about thosedimensions of my identity in the
context of when I talk about itas a risk of what could go
wrong, uh, when I maybe show upin a certain way with an
external, with an externalcontext and helping maybe others
manage their bias and helpingme check my own bias, and you're
(05:23):
100% right, like I think eachrisk presented an opportunity
and each of those thingspotentially could be strengths.
But if I was sort of eyes wideopen to the nuance of how I
showed up in differentsituations, would I also be able
to be just a bit more nuancedin my leadership style by
(05:44):
looking at these things as againthe potential of what could go
wrong.
There's always the outside riskand the potential of what could
go right, but having some ofthose mitigations kind of
thought through around what arethe opportunities to mitigate
and what?
Jon Kidwell (06:01):
are some of the upside risks, if you will.
Nicole Schultz (06:05):
That could materialize from how I show up
as a leader.
And the whole thought around.
It was just again to get morecurious and more honest about
myself.
Jon Kidwell (06:18):
How did I want to show up?
Nicole Schultz (06:19):
as a leader.
Jon Kidwell (06:20):
And could I be just a little more disciplined in my
framework of thinking and thethings that I wanted to do or
support, maybe I wanted to reachout to.
And just a little bit moreresistance to that.
Nicole Schultz (06:33):
It was a bit more discipline and more
repeatable.
Jon Kidwell (06:38):
I love that.
I love the fact that as you'retaking on more responsibility,
you're also bringing in so muchmore reflection and you've
shared and I got the opportunityto look at kind of that
framework.
So with permission, I'm goingto lay it out there and then
please correct me where I'mwrong and help explain all of
that to each of us.
(06:58):
So you start with kind of whatare some of those inherit risks
to yourself, to you as theleader?
What are some mitigations thatyou can take for that risk?
What do those look like?
Some behaviors that correspondto help you mitigate that?
(07:18):
And then what is your story?
And so there are five differentparts to it.
What is your story, and sothere are five different parts
to it.
Can you help reframe and kindof communicate through those
five-part framework better thanI did?
For sure, no, it's exactlyright, josh.
Nicole Schultz (07:37):
It's not a five-step process but it is sort
of a five-step process and ifyou're sort of in the nerdy risk
management space, some of thosethings might resonate with you.
So just very simply in like acommon sort of risk management
activity.
One of the first things thatyou do is a bit of a scan and
(07:57):
you identify in this case thestory that's surfacing with some
of your personal identity risk.
But if you were managing aprocess or system, you would
identify in an environmentalscan like what are some of the
potential threats or thepotential what could go wrongs?
that might impact your processor system.
(08:19):
Why you?
Jon Kidwell (08:20):
know why not do that, for leadership, why, you
know?
Why not do that for leadership?
Nicole Schultz (08:27):
And so that's what I did.
Is I just sort of looked at mystory and said what are some of
the things that are surfacingfor me, whether they're just my
internal monologue, or they'regrounded in external data points
, or they're things that arejust very new to?
Jon Kidwell (08:36):
me.
Nicole Schultz (08:37):
Those were the three things that I sort of
focused on in terms of thethings in my story that I felt
like were resuracing as personalidentity with.
So that's kind of that.
First thing is just again beingcourageous and curious to lean
into our story a little bit,each of us, to say what are some
of the things that could maybego wrong and that could include,
(09:03):
you know, a strength overdone,because sometimes something that
could go right but somethingthat's overdone, that becomes a
risk.
And it just helped me andsaying, hey, what are some of
the things that could go wrongbased on my dimensions of
(09:28):
identity, based on some internaland external context that might
impact my leadership.
Jon Kidwell (09:36):
So if I'm sitting here doing this for myself, I'm
starting to think about somethings and maybe, like others
that are listening, they mighteven be thinking about different
things at different points intheir career.
So, listening to you, I'mthinking there's a John years
ago that is a young executive,doesn't have any tenure, has a
(10:00):
lot of hunger and drive, has alot of hunger and drive.
I'm not yet a parent and andthere are kind of this other
factor of I'm I'm outside to theorganization that I'm in, I'm
new, right, I'm the new guy onthe block, and so all of these
I'm starting to think through asmaybe I should have at the time
(10:21):
uh, that these are potentialrisks, right?
Is that some of what you aretalking about?
And the one that comes up to memost is because I feel it now,
being a parent, is this idea ofkind of me at work pre children,
me at work post children, andeven how some of those
priorities and managing thosestart to change.
(10:42):
Is that the type of stuff thatyou're talking about?
Nicole Schultz (10:55):
That is exactly it.
And what is really cool andeven just this level of sharing
and as I've kind of worked withother groups on this is that
story all of a sudden, instantlyfor me creates a connection.
Because you know, nicole, 12years ago pre-parent, newer
leader, sort of a bit outside ofthe leadership group in one of
(11:19):
the last organizations I had theprivilege of leading in and as
I started to think about this,instead of getting sort of down
about those things, I started tothink about well, we work with
other leaders on their processesand systems.
This is really just something Iwant to cultivate for my own
(11:41):
sort of process and system, ifyou will.
Why don't I start to look atthat from a bit more of a risk
management lens?
And it took a while for me tokind of buy in, but when I
started to realize that itreally could work, it started to
help me then lead to the nextstep of what are those potential
(12:05):
mitigations and starting to getclear on them.
And part of story sharing isthat we start to identify with
other people and hear whatthey've maybe done to manage
that risk of.
You know, young executive, john, pre-parent, you know what kind
(12:25):
of showed up and worked for himas a mitigation and part of
that, story sharing helps usjust accelerate what are some
maybe key things we need to doto mitigate that risk, and so
that next step is just startingto get clear on.
You know what are somepotential mitigations when
you're showing up as that newleader For me back then it was
(12:47):
sort of being one of the quoteunquote youngest leaders.
So try to figure out what,beyond my performance currency,
can help me establish mycredibility and maybe some
relational density, maybe askingfor some mentorship or
sponsorship.
But instead of being, I guess,a bit haphazard about it, it's
(13:10):
just being a bit more clear onthose are maybe some things that
I need to lean into to helpmitigate the risk of being, you
know, the youngest or justoutside of that leadership group
.
Um, and so it's just adifferent way of thinking about
how to manage those sort ofagain.
What could go wrong?
Jon Kidwell (13:33):
yeah it, yeah, that's so interesting.
It makes me think of things thathonestly that I stepped in and
then got some great feedback andthen usually went into building
some sort of I'll use your wordmitigation strategy around that
ie being extremely driven andhard pressing and probably
(13:56):
unfortunately putting some ofthe work above the people and
not having this level ofunderstanding and empathy for
people in different stages oflife.
And you step in it and then kindof on the backside, grateful
for good feedback and greatpeople around me that are like
you know you should really bethinking about things like this
(14:17):
and then they turn into someonewho is now an advisor, can give
that perspective and we'regetting ready to rock and roll.
And it's like have I coveredall of the bases here in terms
of thinking about some of thesedifferent things that may show
up or communicating to some ofthese different areas and kind
(14:37):
of as I was listening tosponsorship, mentorship, folks
that can give you differentperspective of things you have
not yet gone through.
I think about the fact that Iended up with an individual
inside the organization who wasmore tenure to me, who had kids,
who was a wonderful kind ofcounselor and guide to say here
(15:00):
are some things for you toconsider that you yet haven't
experienced in life, and itwould be great because you'll be
a better leader as you thinkabout these things.
Nicole Schultz (15:11):
Yeah, I know that's interesting, because
that's really what it was for meas well and I think some of
that is just natural, as we andI think as you move up, maybe an
organization is hierarchicalleadership I like, I I always
like to maybe ascribe a littleto that leader class.
(15:33):
I don't like it currentlyregardless of what we do in an
organization.
We should ask you it.
But.
Jon Kidwell (15:41):
I found that if I got a bit more, vulnerable or
curious with myself.
Nicole Schultz (15:46):
I was asking different questions.
And I can't say if I celebratedmy nations or not, but I know
that I was more disciplinedabout the type of nation I was
for or the type of sponsorshipmaybe completely different from
my gender, where I wouldn't havehad the courage to ask before
(16:17):
because I felt like maybe I dolong, but I recognized through
some of this process that peoplereally want to lean in and
people who are almost like onpaper, sort of opposite.
For you are more than willing, Ifind, to share their stories,
share their lessons and I dofeel like there's parts of my
(16:42):
career and even just my sort ofattitude towards building a life
and making sort of my work andlife more integrated, that work
accelerated, having these greatmentors and sponsors who were
willing to share that with me.
Jon Kidwell (17:04):
Yeah, do you have you found and do you think that
others find similarity as towhat you and I have even said
here today?
You said I found that peoplewant to lean in right,
regardless of how much we may ormay not perceive that we are
alike and kind of share some ofthose kind of overlapping pieces
(17:26):
of ourselves.
Do you find that once you getinto there there is a lot more
that you are able to relate tothan originally kind of assumed?
yeah, almost, yeah, almostalways and that's what I, that's
what I.
Nicole Schultz (17:41):
There's that, there's that beautiful concept
of just like the strangers andthere's something there's
something really about, aboutkind of sharing, sharing your
risk management risk managementstory.
Jon Kidwell (17:51):
Again, just a bit of a risk, like for me, like for
sharing a sharing a bit of arisk.
Nicole Schultz (17:53):
Like for me, like for sharing a sharing a bit
of your story and your storyand how I manage my risk, the
more I have done this or evenjust my own life been courageous
to somebody who I felt likegosh, I would really just really
just like on paper.
Jon Kidwell (18:11):
Could not be more on our skills, our style,
dimensions of identity, justeverything.
Nicole Schultz (18:19):
And then realizing that, realizing that,
we're more like than we aredifferent.
And and um um that idea, thatidea of just scanning our sort
of identity actually.
Actually is it almost a bit ofan equalizer.
That way, it brings a lot ofpeople to the table who maybe
(18:46):
felt a bit of shame orindifference into an inclusion,
the context of the context ofthings that can feel a bit
polarizing and this just feltlike there was a lot of
reciprocity.
Jon Kidwell (19:01):
I just personally for me it really helped like I
said in my own career and sortof starting to connect with as
one of those patients.
Nicole Schultz (19:13):
You know the next step around kind of
figuring out what you need to doto make those medications
happen.
There was a number, there was anumber of things for me that
surfaced, as many sponsorshipand sponsorship and I knew
that's something I needed torespond and respond, and more
courage, and more courage interms of just willingness to ask
(19:34):
or other part the other part ofit.
For me that surfaced was what Icall a bit of, I call a bit of
like, when we talk about, whenwe talk about medications, I
kind of put strategic, strategic, those kind of terms just kind
of turn around.
But I throw it around, but Iwas really, was really struck by
(19:55):
just needing to get a bit morecrystal clear.
Jon Kidwell (20:00):
What I saw as my students, what.
Nicole Schultz (20:01):
I mean by that is for me figuring out what sort
of leader I wanted to be in thecontext of perhaps what
leadership principles resonatedwith me.
And then coming up with my ownsort of personalized lens of
that.
And so I did some work.
Leadership the rubber hit theroad.
(20:25):
For me it was taking someleadership.
Taking some leadership In mycase it was from the Kuzism
poster, from the Kuzism posterthat just resonated 12 years ago
, and so I always kind of hungon to it and then, over time
coming, and then over timecoming, um, um and again, it
feels and again it feels a bitlike it did help me just get,
(20:46):
just get a bit more, a bit moreclear on, clear on.
Jon Kidwell (20:50):
I wanted to show up as I wanted to show up as a
leader.
Nicole Schultz (20:56):
And I know right now it sounds like this is sort
of a lot about me, but a pieceof it was so that I could show
up as a more inclusive, a bitmore nuanced and being able to
help others who are maybedealing with the same sorts of
things or they have a certainlevel how they're going to
(21:18):
belong how they're going toprogress or supporting others
and wanting to reach.
Whatever they have to find istheir potential.
Jon Kidwell (21:30):
Yeah, I love how you really start with
self-leadership and even insideof that, you keep turning
towards kind of leading othersright and kind of turning it to
that, both in terms of you say,this started with looking at
(21:50):
kind of my own and managingrisks, but you but you also
teach this, you share this, youuse it as a way to help others.
And I think it's one of thoseareas that every single one of
us can connect with because, ifwe're being honest with
ourselves, we are all managingrisks all the time, as, as a
level of leader, with theexpertise that I'm bringing or
(22:14):
that I'm not bringing, to agiven situation, to my time with
family, to the risk ofprioritizing the wrong thing,
and all of it.
It is a concept that everysingle one of us can get.
I heard you say start strategicwith what are some of those
(22:34):
guiding principles for you thatyou need to be aware of and that
are going to also help kind ofguide and direct and lead you.
So take us through some ofthose other kind of mitigations
and behaviors then, as we startto bring this into, okay, how
does it impact, you know, myday-to-day, week-to-week life
and leadership.
Nicole Schultz (22:54):
Yeah, so as I started to break it leadership.
Yeah, so, yeah so, as I startedto break it down like it's that
strategic bit of that strategicbit of how do I want to show up
?
Jon Kidwell (23:02):
And how do I want to show up?
And those things just helpedground me.
And now even, and now, even buteven in the early days.
It's just really.
How did I want?
Nicole Schultz (23:11):
to show up authentically and courageously
when things felt off,courageously when things fell
off course.
When things fell off course, Icould go and that's more
tactically and then moretactically, as I am a bit of an
audit, a bit of an audit Istarted to set I started to just
a few objectives and keyresults.
A few objectives and results forwhat were those around, what
were those things I was going todo?
And they didn't have to begrandiose, they didn't have to
(23:34):
be started out as things.
They just started out.
And so one of the things I wasencouraged to do by one of my
mentors.
To do by one of my mentors wasjust the intentionality of
reaching out whether it was tosponsor somebody or whether it
was to sponsorship buying myself-grown or a sponsorship to
get myself grown and as a leaderI think.
(23:55):
And as a leader I think, so wecan get busy.
So everybody's busy,everybody's life is busy Some of
those micro behaviors some ofthose micro behaviors not
everybody.
Jon Kidwell (24:08):
Not everybody has that sort of in their ecosystem
data.
Nicole Schultz (24:13):
You know, ecosystem data is just around.
And so for me it was justaround making sure that I was
being intentional aboutsponsorship, whether it was
speaking on behalf of somebody.
Speaking on behalf of somebodyso that I could help them in my
care, or being intentional abouttheir career or being
(24:33):
intentional with somebody who'ssomebody who's you know,
somebody who's looking for someadvice or a way forward, but
just being intentional andstarting to kind of just
starting to kind of trackhonestly, john like what almost
track, honestly, john life and Istarted to.
It sounds cheesy because itsounds cheesy, I guess I feel
like.
Jon Kidwell (24:53):
I guess I feel like , does it feel a bit
over-engineered?
Does it feel a bitover-engineered?
Nicole Schultz (24:57):
It's just the intentionality.
It's just the intentionality,really trying to authentically
lean into the leader,authentically lean into the
leader.
Make those things translate.
Make those things, just thesebroad manifesto types, broad
manifesto types.
What are some behaviors I wantto, what are some behaviors I
want to, what are some behaviorsI want to?
And then that's how it kind ofstarted and then that's how it
(25:19):
kind of started coming to thismore tactical, okay, so what are
some of my objectives and keyresults maybe it's defined
cadence, and then maybe it'sdefined cadence and then
sponsorship.
Jon Kidwell (25:30):
What are some of your behaviors.
Nicole Schultz (25:32):
So I are some of the behaviors.
So I'm coaching honestly, whatare some behaviors I want to
start?
What are some of the behaviors?
So I'm some of the behaviors.
So I'm coaching honestly, whatare some behaviors I want to
start?
What are some behaviors I wantto start working on to help
level up my game.
So working on to help level upmy game so I can a leader that a
leader again.
I feel like it's a privilege tolead again.
I feel like it's a privilege tohave more impact and to have
(25:53):
more impact people's careershave more impact on their life.
People's careers have moreimpact on their life.
Many of the things I reallyhold that as a message.
I really hold that.
Jon Kidwell (26:02):
I just I really wanted to.
Nicole Schultz (26:04):
I just I really wanted to.
You know, for the people undermy care, try and show up For the
people under my care try andshow up and it was really
supportive of where.
Helping them was reallysupportive of where, and then
operationally and then toexecute operationally is just
starting to execute monitoring.
Jon Kidwell (26:19):
You're not going to get everything right monitoring
and you're not going to geteverything.
Nicole Schultz (26:22):
Never better and to be that person, but knowing
when to course to be that personand I just feel like a bit more
of a disciplined and I justfeel like a bit more of a just
um help me do that.
Jon Kidwell (26:32):
Um, maybe a bit help me do that, then I would
have been maybe a bit morequickly than.
Nicole Schultz (26:36):
I would have in the past, because I wasn't as
aware of the things I wanted todo.
Jon Kidwell (26:42):
I heard and was reading something the other day
that we are always operating inthe now and in the not yet.
If we choose to kind of put outthere what is that ideal, what
is that target, what's thatvision for the future of those
guiding principles, and we can'tact in the not yet If we choose
to kind of put out there whatis that ideal, what is that
target, what's that vision forthe future of those guiding
principles, and we can't act inthe not yet, we can only act in
the now.
And I think, for all of uslistening, we were able to
(27:03):
really get a very helpful designon how do we manage some of
these risks, how do we look outand see some of the guiding
principles, some of the thingsthat we want, the things that we
want for our team, the thingsthat we want to be aware of for
ourselves, bringing them downinto the behaviors that you
outlined.
So, if you've listened today, atakeaway something to do is to
(27:27):
go sit on this for just a minuteand think about what are some
of those pieces of yourself andwhere you are in work and some
of those pieces of yourself andwhere you are in work and some
of those risks to manage andoutline.
What do you want this to looklike, what are some of the goals
and aspirations, and then goback through what Nicole said
around some of those behaviorsto help operationalize it.
(27:48):
And you also have a risk auditorthat did, in fact, say you're
not going to get a perfect, andso we, so we are keeping that on
record, uh, and I'm going tojust carry that with me wherever
I go, cause I am also one thatuh has so much fun with all of
my risk friends.
Uh, that, uh, that loveperfection.
So you said it best, nicole,I'm keeping it.
(28:10):
Thank you so much.
And, uh, before we go in,before you give us final
thoughts, I do want to ask you aquestion, because we ask
everybody and you've just givenus this great kind of framework
to think about how to lead well,especially when it comes to our
own risks.
But for you, nicole, what doesit mean to you to lead well?
Nicole Schultz (28:29):
I love the question, john, and I think I
love the question, john, and Ithink for me it's really not
grandiose, it's really just thebelief that if I can support a
few people and realize theirpotential, and doing that in a
(28:50):
courageous and authentic way,then for me I would have led
well then, courageous andauthentic way led well for me.
Jon Kidwell (28:56):
I would have led well.
I love it.
Courageous, authenticdeveloping of others to reach
potential.
So amazing.
Nicole, thank you so much forcoming on, for sharing.
You know how we all of us haveit.
How can we manage and bemindful, through all the risks
that we bring, to be able toserve people, to do business and
leadership extremely well.
(29:17):
I am grateful for it.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
Nicole Schultz (29:20):
Thank you for spending the time with me, John.
Thank you for spending yourtime with me.
John and we have risk, and howthat translates into the end of
our leadership.
Jon Kidwell (29:32):
Love it and everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningNicole and I, and until next
time, be well lead on, and Godbless.
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