July 9, 2024 • 27 mins
Have you ever considered that no matter how hard you try, one-third of people will always support you, another third will oppose you, and the remaining third can be swayed? In this episode, we dive deep into the "Law of Thirds" communication framework with John Carroll, Executive Director of City Leadership in Memphis. Drawing from his extensive experience, including lobbying for a governor, John shares his insights on how leaders can effectively navigate this challenging dynamic. He explains the importance of stewarding your truth, passion, and communication, focusing especially on winning over the middle third to drive successful outcomes.
We explore the challenges of building consensus and navigating resistance within teams. One of the key strategies John discusses is categorizing people into 'for', 'against', and 'don't care' groups, and concentrating efforts on the ambivalent middle third to create momentum. We also cover the dangers of overconfidence and the need to win over the undecided without alienating supporters. Through relatable examples, such as friends left out of group texts due to green messages, we illustrate the necessity of sometimes letting go of those who won't join the journey. This conversation is a must-listen for leaders looking to harness the power of effective communication and strategic thinking.
Lastly, we delve into the principles of servant leadership, focusing on how leaders can engage their teams through active listening and clear communication. John emphasizes the significance of making everyone feel heard and understood, even in disagreement, to foster a cohesive and motivated team. He also shares the impactful work of City Leadership in Memphis, offering valuable lessons on leading with purpose and compassion. Join us for an insightful discussion on the art of guiding and inspiring teams, and learn how to make a meaningful difference in your organization and community.
Connect with John:
John Carroll | LinkedIn
John Carroll | Email
City Leadership | Website | Instagram | LinkedIn
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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.
Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.
For more information visit https://leadwell.com
The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.
In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.
Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Kidwell (00:00):
I think, and like we just said, anything goes awry
, whatever we get to fix it allin post production.
So, matthew, all of the cursing, all of everything, you just
take it out, right, yeah.
John Carroll (00:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Jon Kidwell (00:18):
Welcome to the Leadwell podcast, the podcast
for mission-driven leaders,where we interview guests who
are doing it well to help youlead your business and your
people well.
And today with me I haveanother John.
Let's be real, most likely amuch better.
John Also uses the H in there,but John Carroll, Executive
Director of City Leadership inMemphis, Tennessee.
(00:40):
It is a nonprofit helpingnonprofits and, as you said, hey
, we help the good guys do moregood.
Welcome to the show, John.
Thanks for being here.
John Carroll (00:49):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Really really grateful to be on.
Jon Kidwell (00:52):
So we you and I were kind of talking and setting
this up and my brain alreadystarted spinning on what we were
going to talk about and itprobably needs some
establishment.
You said it's a communicationframework and idea, but it's
called the law of thirds.
So what is the law of thirds?
John Carroll (01:11):
Well, so one of the things that we've got, we've
figured out over the years, isthat not everybody is going to
be on our side, no matter howhard we try.
Right.
Jon Kidwell (01:23):
Wait, what are you talking about?
I don't understand.
John Carroll (01:25):
What do you mean?
Everyone's not going to be onmy side.
And I would say is that.
So I've got a bunch ofdifferent jobs in a bunch of
different fields and we've donepolling and quantitative and
qualitative and tried to figureeverything out.
And one of the things that wefound was back in the day I used
to work for a governor and Iwas on his legislative staff and
(01:47):
we would go out and lobby billsand it just came down to it.
It did not matter what bill wewere talking about.
We had 100 people in our statehouse and the reality was is
that a third of the people werefor it, a third of people were
against it, and then there wasthat middle third and that was
(02:08):
always within a person or two oneverything.
And so that was a long time agofor me that was 25 years or so
ago and that is rung true inevery work, every practice,
almost everything we've tried todo.
And one of the things that wefound about that is just
(02:28):
realizing is that, no matter howmuch time we spend on it, no
matter how much time we try tocommunicate, it is that a third
of the people are not going tobe with us.
And I think that one of thethings that we're just okay with
is saying is that, hey, I thinkthat one of the things that
we're just okay with is sayingis that, hey, that can be okay.
The good news is and I think alittle bit of scary news for
(02:51):
leaders is a third of the peopleare always with us, and that's
one of the things we have tosteward as leaders is making
sure that we're saying the rightthings and pushing the right
things, because you can sayabout anything we see it today,
obviously, in the politicalclimate today Because you can
say about anything we see ittoday, obviously in the
political climate today and athird of the people will just be
with you, no matter howoutlandish it is or how crazy it
is or whatever.
And so you've got to stewardyour truth and you've got to
(03:14):
steward your passion and stewardyour communication in a way of
knowing that you've got sheepthat are going to follow the
shepherd.
They're going to follow youwherever you lead them, and so.
But where we find the law ofthe third really mattering is we
understand is that we have tofigure out how to win the middle
third, because the truth of itis no matter what you say, a
third of the people are not withyou or against you, and in fact
(03:39):
, most of those people areactually just not even listening
to you though.
Jon Kidwell (03:43):
Well, that that's what bothers me.
Let's be real.
I am sitting here, I'm agalvanizing leader, I love to be
motivating, I love to bepersuasive.
So I got my little paper infront of me and basically what I
just wrote down is I did threelittle boxes For against.
Don't care.
(04:03):
That's how I just heardeverything that you told me and
then I look at it and I think,right, but and this is probably
way too much ego, or justconfidence, just unwavering
confidence, and stupidity,honestly, is what it is.
But I was like, but I couldprobably get the like don't
cares in the against, like I canwin, I can win some of those
(04:26):
right, could, I could probablyget the like don't cares in the
against like I can win.
John Carroll (04:28):
I can win some of those Right and yeah, that's the
one you're telling me, some ofit you got to let go and then.
Jon Kidwell (04:31):
And then you're also saying you got to win some
of them, right?
John Carroll (04:34):
Well, if you're going to have the majority, if
you're going to have themomentum, if you're going to
create the tipping point, it'sgoing to take more than just a
simple message.
You can't stand up in front ofyour staff.
You can't stand up in front ofthe people who are your customer
base.
You can't even stand up.
I've got five kids.
I can't stand up in front of myfamily and just say, hey, we're
(04:56):
doing this without people forme and against me, and people
not listening or ambivalent,orent or you know, they've heard
me, but they're not.
They don't really have ahardcore opinion, and so you
have to do that extra work asyou're thinking through it, and
what's interesting is, as you dothe extra work, the two things
will end up happening.
(05:17):
One is is that you do have achance to win over the middle
third.
That's the whole point.
You have to do the extra workto win them over and you got to
figure out what it's going totake A lot of times.
As you're doing that, you mightactually confuse your third,
that's with you.
What does that mean?
Jon Kidwell (05:32):
Yeah, what goes on there Because?
That's confusing me right now.
John Carroll (05:35):
Yeah.
So the thing that you said tothem was just like they.
Just they said yes A lot oftimes because you're their
leader, not because of what yousaid, and so when they start to
understand it or when they startto hear more, they're like wait
a second, I thought we werejust doing whatever.
You mean we have to actuallypay more money, or that's going
to take time, or I'm going tohave to actually volunteer, or
(05:56):
I'm going to have to put time in.
I just thought it was justgoing to happen, right.
So you start to find thosecracks, even in your yes.
It doesn't mean they go to a no, but they they end up starting.
But I think part of it is isrealizing.
Is that, hey, figuring outwho's out on this and just not
spending their time and energyand effort, because that's where
we see a lot of times is we seeourselves as leaders, spending
(06:21):
time with people who aren'tcoming with you on an issue, and
realizing it's just what wewant to do, like that's part of
what it is.
Jon Kidwell (06:29):
It's like we move people in that general direction
, right, and, as you and I weresaying before, we even jumped on
like, ah, this is, this is soinsightful and it's such a great
reminder of sometimes yourproduct just isn't for people
and sometimes that and sometimesthat that change management,
like all of us talk about, islike you're.
You're probably going to losesome people If you start
(06:51):
shifting culture or change ofprocesses or doing this because
they're not going to come, andit's it's the clean visual
breakdown and reminder of thingswe already know.
John Carroll (07:01):
Well, we all have a friend who's still sending
green text.
We can't convince.
We cannot convince to come over, right.
And you know what I've starteddoing?
I just leave them out of thetext threads.
I just like, look, here's thedeal, you're just, you're just
out, you're not in the grouptext anymore, and so like I
(07:21):
don't, I don't want them all tobe green, and so like, as you
make this decision in so manyother different ways, but that
when you, when you start torealizing that you cannot get
everyone to be in consensus oneverything and in fact, if you
get 90% of people to beconsensus on something, then
(07:42):
it's got to be the most obvious,most easiest thing possible.
And as leaders, we're usuallypresenting complex, different.
You know really, you knowpolarizing, you get it right.
We're polarizing topics andideas and we have to shape our
(08:03):
better future through that.
And we have to realize thatwhen we introduce a polarizing
idea, that we're going topolarize people and and then the
goal is is to get, as you'regetting, more people on your
side is identify that middle,and each topic is going to slice
people up a little bitdifferent uh, the the nature of
principle.
Jon Kidwell (08:22):
I mean even just decisions.
Hey, we could think of big ones, of like we're going to stop
that service or that product.
We could think of politicallypolarizing things.
But also I mean anyone that'sdone any sort of development in
their team and tried to orderlunch for 50 people.
Somebody is leaving that lunchextremely dissatisfied, right
(08:43):
Like it's just the nature ofmaking a decision and being in
leadership that you will divideand polarize some in an effort
to move and align others.
John Carroll (08:54):
Well, and I think that you know, obviously Well,
and I think that you know,obviously, mature people can
walk away from their unpreferredlunch and be okay, right, sure,
sure.
But obviously there's issuesthat we deal with, especially
when it comes to you know who wecare for, how we care for them,
you know who's invited to becared for.
All that kind of stuff can bereally, really polarizing.
(09:17):
But here's the reality is isthat we're all humans.
None of us have the ability tomeet everyone's needs.
Anyways, at some point you'regoing to run out of time,
capacity, money, intelligence,just whatever those things are.
So you're going to run to anend of it.
(09:37):
And you know, like we say aroundour office all the time, is
that, man, there's 30 things wewish we could be doing well
every single day.
We got the resources to doabout 12 of them and you know we
could.
We could pivot some of thosearound inside that 30 and be
really happy organizationally.
But we've got people in ouroffice that are like, man, this
(09:58):
is what I want to be about.
And we've got other people thatare so mad that we're not being
about something else and it'sall in good, 30 things, but it's
like it doesn't matter.
We can't be about all of them,we've got to be about something.
And so, even as you decide goodthings like that, and so it's a
hard, complex thing and asleaders we have to understand is
that you're just not going toget everybody, and you've got to
(10:21):
do more than just saying it toget the momentum and get the
majority.
Jon Kidwell (10:26):
So that brings us back around to what you said,
which is probably one of thecritical pieces beyond the
acceptance of.
There are just some that areagainst.
But you said earlier there'sextra work we got to do in the
middle right and you just kindof brought back around to that.
So if I'm a leader and I'msitting there looking at my team
and we're going through changemanagement, if we've just made a
(10:49):
big organizational decision, ifI'm looking at clients, if I'm
looking at people that we serveon the positive and the negative
that are kind of the detractorsand the supporters, how do I
engage in some of that hard work, the extra work, as you said,
in that middle?
Third, Right.
John Carroll (11:10):
So this is what's so important you know, when you
understand.
And again, a lot of timesyou're not voting.
People are voting a lot oftimes not because they're
actually putting a placard up oractually clicking a button.
They're voting with theirattitude, they're voting with
their work ethic, they're votingwith their customer base,
they're voting with theirparticipation, and so you start
(11:31):
to see some of that engagement.
But the law of the thirdsbasically says is that, no
matter what you're doing youshould think about it this way
is that a third of the peopleare pumped about it, and a third
of people, even if they'redoing it, they're probably not
pumped about it, right, and andthat could be just because of
their personality or timing orsomething that's out of your
control.
What you've got to understandis that the people in the middle
(11:52):
that are either participatingin some sort of way or you're
trying to win over or trying towhatever, is that they're more
inclined to say no.
Unless you do the work to getthem to say yes and that's where
that effort is is that we sayin our office a confused mind
says no, and so confusiondoesn't have to be that they're
(12:16):
confused why it matters.
They're just confused on how itshould happen, right, and so
they could have the why, butthey don't know how, and so
they're going to say no.
Or they don't know what'sactually going on, and so maybe
they heard your why, or maybethey just heard your what, but
they don't know why.
Right, and even they have gotexplained how it's going to work
(12:39):
, but they haven't heard the why.
If they're confused on any oneof those why, how or what
they're a confused mind going tosay no.
And as a leader, that's when youlose momentum, that's when you
lose the tipping point, energywhere you can get high quality
work and accomplishment, andwherever that is.
You know organizationally, andso you know, as you go into
(13:03):
those individual orgs, thoseindividual groups inside, that,
as you start figuring outpersonality based, you know I've
got a staff of 20.
So, about on anything anddifferent kinds of topics, I
know them well enough to knowwho I need to pull in and have
some one-on-ones with and whoneeds to hear when I say
(13:23):
something that maybe a staffgathering and be like, hey, I'm
doing this, but I want to invitesome of you all to hear you
know where we are able to gothrough some deeper Q&A on this
at this other session, at thisother time.
Anybody wants to come.
And then I might say to adirector hey, your team needs to
make sure that they're there,right Cause I know that they're
in the process or pulling thosepeople one-on-one and having
that conversation going.
Hey, when I I'm going to makean announcement tomorrow, and I
(13:45):
think I think you're going to belikely, you know, I know you
well and I want to say thatwhatever now, with 20 people,
that's possible 20,000 people or2000 people or even 200 person
congregation, that's really hardand that's what you know like,
let's just say, like a pastor.
A pastor says he has 300 peoplein congregation.
Only 120 people are showing up.
(14:05):
That's usually that.
Third.
You know what I'm saying.
They're showing up being a partof it, and so you know, where
are you getting those otherpeople to be engaged in that
space?
And so you start to.
If you start to see it that wayand just go ahead and go and
decide it's that way, then youstart making effort in a little
bit extra and different way andyou start to categorize people a
little bit.
(14:25):
And when you find that big hard, no is that you don't have to
go be persuasive with thatperson.
If you find yourself trying tobe persuasive, you're probably
trying to convert a no to a yes.
But if you find yourself tryingto give clarity, if you find
yourself trying to eliminateconfusion, you're taking
somebody from the middle tobring him over with you.
Jon Kidwell (14:46):
That's really powerful and I accept the
coaching that you just gave mearound the.
It's not about persuading no'sto yeses and if you find
yourself in that, check it.
But if you are trying toprovide clarity to, almost like
a seeking interested individualthat's there wanting to hear it
(15:07):
out, not just be a curmudgeon orargue, right, your role is
clarity, right?
Is that what you're saying?
John Carroll (15:16):
Yeah, for sure, and I think that when you make
clarity your goal, what happensis people feel empowered to make
their own yes, instead offorced into what they think
you're making them do.
Right, and that's what we sayall the time is, we shouldn't
have to persuade anybody or beganyone or, you know, or just
(15:39):
yank somebody over from one sideto the other.
It's just that we keep assumingthat there's some angle that
they're confused on, oftenaround the why, how or what.
Investigate that obviouslyindividually, or even just think
(15:59):
about that kind of in a biggergroup form is if you're not
getting enough yes, if you'renot getting enough momentum, you
need to assume that your crowdis either one, two or all three
confused around why, how or what, and then you start
communicating to them in variousdifferent ways how to be able
to you know where the clarity isaround that and then making
sure that they've heard it.
Jon Kidwell (16:20):
So the extra work also kind of demands more time,
more attention, all of what yousaid there.
I can see that and I still wantto do it, and it's super clear
on why, how, what, and I'mguessing, and maybe there's some
of this that also happens.
And I'm guessing, and maybethere's some of this that also
(16:41):
happens.
I get drawn into those outside,peripheral, outlier places
because, let's be real, like atthe ones that are for me, like
it feels good, right, likethey're just charging with me,
and the ones that are againstseem to make a lot of noise and
really demand my emotionalattention.
And so if everything's gettingsucked up out there, like how do
(17:02):
I get into the middle?
What do I do?
If I'm a leader that's juststuck on those outsides?
And I hear you and I want to beable to activate the ambivalent
middle.
John Carroll (17:13):
Yeah.
So I think you know, one ofthose ways of getting out of the
middle is really checking yourego, um, because that'll help
you identify where you're at.
You know, um, and I think thatif you find yourself, you know
um, feeling, you know, one ofthe things is with the no is
(17:34):
actually where you feel fear.
You know, with the yeses iswhere you actually you feel
really glad, right, you feelglad, you feel joy.
You know that's all happeningwith over here.
So if you're feeling glad andjoy with everybody you're
talking to and you don'tactually have the momentum and
the energy and all that kind ofstuff, you're like man, am I
(17:55):
talking to everybody here?
Like you know, you're likewhatever.
And if you feel fear, fear isactually where you feel the,
where you feel the with the noseis because in that fear is
where you take, is where you'restarting to feel anxiety.
You start trying to exhibitcontrol around them.
Well, well, if you don't agreewith me, I won't let you
whatever, right.
And then you're like oh, thesepeople always drive me so crazy,
(18:23):
right.
Your rage starts coming out andit's courageous to go talk to
people who completely disagreewith you and I would say is
instead of trying to persuadethem, what you have to go do,
especially if you're leading agroup of people to ongoing
relationship and they don'tagree with you.
You're the leader, you're takingthem, whether or not they agree
with you or not.
Now they may walk out the dooror go somewhere else.
When you go over there, whatyou do is is you have to go, say
hey, I realize we don't agree,I want to understand why.
(18:45):
And so you, just you geteducated, because you might be
wrong.
Right, and leaders have beenwrong before.
I don't know.
It's breaking news, right?
Jon Kidwell (18:53):
here on this story but, wrong before.
John Carroll (18:56):
And so a lot of times you might be like, oh my
gosh, that is a big issue.
I've never thought about itbefore.
So, like making sure they feelheard, because they're okay with
disagreeing if they feel heard,and so I think, going over
there and making sure you're nottrying to you know you're not
plot twisting or that kind ofstuff and then when you're going
into this group in the middle,you're finding yourself really
(19:18):
curious, you know, and I'd sayis using curiosity as to what
have they heard, what do theyunderstand and where?
Where is that really fitting in?
And when your curiosity isturned on more than your fear
right, like I was telling you tocircumvent your fear over here
with the nose with somecuriosity, but really more of
(19:43):
that's really about respect.
You're kind of taking courageand respect to the people.
You fear the no and you're justsaying hey, I honor your no, I
honor that we disagree, tell mewhatever.
That's where you're takingcourage.
But curiosity is where you'retaking the middle of trying to
find people when you're incurious conversations.
If they're not asking you goodquestions, then you're taking
the middle of trying to findpeople when you're in curious
conversations.
If they're not asking you goodquestions, then you're not
opening them up as a leader, orif they don't feel like they've
got a floor in that space orthey're so oblivious to what's
(20:06):
going on and that can alsohappen there in the middle is
that they don't even realizethey're not paying attention.
We see that happen in apolitical landscape all the time
.
People aren't watching the news, they don't know what's going
on, they don't know anythingabout what's happening, and so
you've got to inform them insome sort of way to be able to
(20:27):
bring some interest into thatspace.
And then you got to empowerother leaders to be able to do
that.
So for me, I'm empowering mydirectors, who are fit all
across the spectrum already, andmaking sure that they are
actually figuring this out,because you get a director who's
overseeing a bunch of peoplewho are yeses but they're a no
man that can create problems,you know.
Or they're overseeing a bunchof people who are yeses but
(20:48):
they're confused in the middle,you know.
And so you've got to, you know,start close.
You know, aim small, miss small, try to make sure they're all
with you in that space, and thenthey're bringing that to their
own people and creatingenvironments inside their
pockets where they can do that,and they can elevate that up to
you and you can learn over andover again as an organizational
(21:10):
leader.
Jon Kidwell (21:12):
Man, everything that you were saying drove back
in my brain to the idea ofactively listening.
Right, that there is anengagement, there is an active
listening, which we've talkedabout here before and that it is
I am both listening and sharingto drive towards a deeper
understanding, and that when wedo that, that's one of the best
(21:35):
ways that we can engage all ofthose thirds, if you will.
John Carroll (21:40):
Right, right.
But I think that's where, whenyour leaders start off with it,
just because you said it doesn'tmean they've all heard it, and
just because people are doing itdoesn't mean they all agree.
And I think that, as a leader,when you can just assume that
those two things are usuallyalways true not everybody heard
it and not people are doing itdoesn't mean they all agree.
And I think that, as a leader,when you can just assume that
those two things are usuallyalways true not everybody heard
(22:01):
it and not everyone agrees andthen you've got to at some point
go like hey, my goal isn't 100%agreement, you know, it's just
making sure that if they'resaying no to it, that we both
know why they're saying no to it.
You know that's OK.
And then we don't leave peopleconfused in the middle, because
the confused people in themiddle are actually really,
(22:23):
really hard to actually manage,they're really hard to maximize
and they're really hard topredict, because they get really
lost in the mission becausethey get really lost in the
mission.
Jon Kidwell (22:33):
Yeah, it's so, so true and powerful.
And so many of us, as middlemanagers and I kind of tell
everybody like listen, everysingle one of us is a middle
manager We've either got a board, we've got clients, we've got
whatever.
Doesn't matter if you're theone in charge, you're a middle
manager, we all are.
And that confusion ofexpectations, of what's required
(22:55):
, of what do people need,whatever it might be, that is
the piece that will trip all ofus up.
A confused mind says no.
John Carroll (23:08):
Confusion is not a natural.
Yes, right, that's ignoranceand folly, but humans are.
We were wired and designed toactually have fear, right, and
so confusion, it leads towardsfear, and so that's going to
(23:28):
lead towards all sorts of no,that's how we've survived as
humans, right?
But yeah, confused mind says no.
And so, you know, in my oldpastor you say you know, a fog,
a mist in the pulpit is a fog inthe pews, yeah, oh, man, that's
so true for leaders, right?
Jon Kidwell (23:47):
If it's foggy in your brain, you better expect
storms out in the organization.
Man, John, this has been sogood as we keep on moving.
A couple of things that Ithought of is, man, whenever we
can choose not to be confused,that as leaders, we can choose
not to be confused and know thatwe got to engage and help
(24:07):
people with the why, the whatand the how, and if we are in
that, perhaps we have aresponsibility to choose not to
be confused and to ask for whatwe need and to engage as well,
and that if we do that, if weovercome confusion, get clarity
and keep in mind those law ofthe thirds, we might be able to
work pretty effectively together.
John Carroll (24:29):
Man.
So true, and I think, as you,you as leaders, overcoming that
confusion and making people feelless confused, like, just like
when you said active listening,and then actively saying back
what you heard to them, and thenyou can splice the differences.
Oh, I'm hearing you say thisand so you think that we're
(24:51):
going this, but i'm'm actuallytrying to accomplish this.
Do you see how that's different, like is that sound different
to you?
Or because it feels differentto me?
And I think that when I can saythat, then that person feels
they're able to expressthemselves, they were understood
and now they can see thedifferences.
And then we can agree ordisagree, and that can still
fall into the group.
(25:12):
That's not going to agree withme, right, but at least now
we're all and there's noconfusion.
You know, and I think that thatthat becomes.
You know, if you approach thatas your enemies, the no's aren't
your enemies, like theconfusion is your enemy.
It.
Jon Kidwell (25:29):
That's right, oh, so so good, john, you have given
us a lesson in leading welltoday, and I ask everybody that
comes on the show and so youdon't get out of it either, just
because you have a wonderfulname, but what does it mean to
you to lead well?
John Carroll (25:46):
Man.
So I define leadership astaking initiative for the
benefit of others.
Um, I love the word taking, um,I go, I go and take, uh, and I
actively take the initiative.
Um, but, um, but man, theleading piece is for the benefit
(26:06):
of others.
Um, you know, I've I feel likeyou know, even in saying that I
try to live and embody that.
But I would be totally ignorantto not confess that I feel like
I've grown more and benefitedmore from actually leading than
probably anyone I've ever led.
But the whole hope is is toactually benefit others in that
(26:31):
process whole hope is is toactually benefit others in that
process.
Jon Kidwell (26:36):
Yeah Well, I love it.
That is also the definition ofservice, and we're a big fan of
servant leadership, and that isto act for the benefit of the
object, and that could be aperson, could be an organization
, could be something.
So I love it.
Thank you for sharing that,john.
Everybody John Carroll is onLinkedIn.
We'll put a link in the shownotes.
You can check out more aboutcity leadership,
cityleadershiporg especially ifyou are in that Memphis area.
(26:57):
Connect with them and, john,thank you so much for being here
today For everybody else.
Be well, god bless and lead on.
Man, that was great A fist bumpair five something right the way
coming across.
Man, that was so good, that wasreally great, you uh pulled
(27:21):
more out of me uh.
I think, and like we just said, anything goes awry
, whatever we get to fix it allin post production.
So, matthew, all of the cursing, all of everything, you just
take it out, right, yeah.
John Carroll (00:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Jon Kidwell (00:18):
Welcome to the Leadwell podcast, the podcast
for mission-driven leaders,where we interview guests who
are doing it well to help youlead your business and your
people well.
And today with me I haveanother John.
Let's be real, most likely amuch better.
John Also uses the H in there,but John Carroll, Executive
Director of City Leadership inMemphis, Tennessee.
(00:40):
It is a nonprofit helpingnonprofits and, as you said, hey
, we help the good guys do moregood.
Welcome to the show, John.
Thanks for being here.
John Carroll (00:49):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Really really grateful to be on.
Jon Kidwell (00:52):
So we you and I were kind of talking and setting
this up and my brain alreadystarted spinning on what we were
going to talk about and itprobably needs some
establishment.
You said it's a communicationframework and idea, but it's
called the law of thirds.
So what is the law of thirds?
John Carroll (01:11):
Well, so one of the things that we've got, we've
figured out over the years, isthat not everybody is going to
be on our side, no matter howhard we try.
Right.
Jon Kidwell (01:23):
Wait, what are you talking about?
I don't understand.
John Carroll (01:25):
What do you mean?
Everyone's not going to be onmy side.
And I would say is that.
So I've got a bunch ofdifferent jobs in a bunch of
different fields and we've donepolling and quantitative and
qualitative and tried to figureeverything out.
And one of the things that wefound was back in the day I used
to work for a governor and Iwas on his legislative staff and
(01:47):
we would go out and lobby billsand it just came down to it.
It did not matter what bill wewere talking about.
We had 100 people in our statehouse and the reality was is
that a third of the people werefor it, a third of people were
against it, and then there wasthat middle third and that was
(02:08):
always within a person or two oneverything.
And so that was a long time agofor me that was 25 years or so
ago and that is rung true inevery work, every practice,
almost everything we've tried todo.
And one of the things that wefound about that is just
(02:28):
realizing is that, no matter howmuch time we spend on it, no
matter how much time we try tocommunicate, it is that a third
of the people are not going tobe with us.
And I think that one of thethings that we're just okay with
is saying is that, hey, I thinkthat one of the things that
we're just okay with is sayingis that, hey, that can be okay.
The good news is and I think alittle bit of scary news for
(02:51):
leaders is a third of the peopleare always with us, and that's
one of the things we have tosteward as leaders is making
sure that we're saying the rightthings and pushing the right
things, because you can sayabout anything we see it today,
obviously, in the politicalclimate today Because you can
say about anything we see ittoday, obviously in the
political climate today and athird of the people will just be
with you, no matter howoutlandish it is or how crazy it
is or whatever.
And so you've got to stewardyour truth and you've got to
(03:14):
steward your passion and stewardyour communication in a way of
knowing that you've got sheepthat are going to follow the
shepherd.
They're going to follow youwherever you lead them, and so.
But where we find the law ofthe third really mattering is we
understand is that we have tofigure out how to win the middle
third, because the truth of itis no matter what you say, a
third of the people are not withyou or against you, and in fact
(03:39):
, most of those people areactually just not even listening
to you though.
Jon Kidwell (03:43):
Well, that that's what bothers me.
Let's be real.
I am sitting here, I'm agalvanizing leader, I love to be
motivating, I love to bepersuasive.
So I got my little paper infront of me and basically what I
just wrote down is I did threelittle boxes For against.
Don't care.
(04:03):
That's how I just heardeverything that you told me and
then I look at it and I think,right, but and this is probably
way too much ego, or justconfidence, just unwavering
confidence, and stupidity,honestly, is what it is.
But I was like, but I couldprobably get the like don't
cares in the against, like I canwin, I can win some of those
(04:26):
right, could, I could probablyget the like don't cares in the
against like I can win.
John Carroll (04:28):
I can win some of those Right and yeah, that's the
one you're telling me, some ofit you got to let go and then.
Jon Kidwell (04:31):
And then you're also saying you got to win some
of them, right?
John Carroll (04:34):
Well, if you're going to have the majority, if
you're going to have themomentum, if you're going to
create the tipping point, it'sgoing to take more than just a
simple message.
You can't stand up in front ofyour staff.
You can't stand up in front ofthe people who are your customer
base.
You can't even stand up.
I've got five kids.
I can't stand up in front of myfamily and just say, hey, we're
(04:56):
doing this without people forme and against me, and people
not listening or ambivalent,orent or you know, they've heard
me, but they're not.
They don't really have ahardcore opinion, and so you
have to do that extra work asyou're thinking through it, and
what's interesting is, as you dothe extra work, the two things
will end up happening.
(05:17):
One is is that you do have achance to win over the middle
third.
That's the whole point.
You have to do the extra workto win them over and you got to
figure out what it's going totake A lot of times.
As you're doing that, you mightactually confuse your third,
that's with you.
What does that mean?
Jon Kidwell (05:32):
Yeah, what goes on there Because?
That's confusing me right now.
John Carroll (05:35):
Yeah.
So the thing that you said tothem was just like they.
Just they said yes A lot oftimes because you're their
leader, not because of what yousaid, and so when they start to
understand it or when they startto hear more, they're like wait
a second, I thought we werejust doing whatever.
You mean we have to actuallypay more money, or that's going
to take time, or I'm going tohave to actually volunteer, or
(05:56):
I'm going to have to put time in.
I just thought it was justgoing to happen, right.
So you start to find thosecracks, even in your yes.
It doesn't mean they go to a no, but they they end up starting.
But I think part of it is isrealizing.
Is that, hey, figuring outwho's out on this and just not
spending their time and energyand effort, because that's where
we see a lot of times is we seeourselves as leaders, spending
(06:21):
time with people who aren'tcoming with you on an issue, and
realizing it's just what wewant to do, like that's part of
what it is.
Jon Kidwell (06:29):
It's like we move people in that general direction
, right, and, as you and I weresaying before, we even jumped on
like, ah, this is, this is soinsightful and it's such a great
reminder of sometimes yourproduct just isn't for people
and sometimes that and sometimesthat that change management,
like all of us talk about, islike you're.
You're probably going to losesome people If you start
(06:51):
shifting culture or change ofprocesses or doing this because
they're not going to come, andit's it's the clean visual
breakdown and reminder of thingswe already know.
John Carroll (07:01):
Well, we all have a friend who's still sending
green text.
We can't convince.
We cannot convince to come over, right.
And you know what I've starteddoing?
I just leave them out of thetext threads.
I just like, look, here's thedeal, you're just, you're just
out, you're not in the grouptext anymore, and so like I
(07:21):
don't, I don't want them all tobe green, and so like, as you
make this decision in so manyother different ways, but that
when you, when you start torealizing that you cannot get
everyone to be in consensus oneverything and in fact, if you
get 90% of people to beconsensus on something, then
(07:42):
it's got to be the most obvious,most easiest thing possible.
And as leaders, we're usuallypresenting complex, different.
You know really, you knowpolarizing, you get it right.
We're polarizing topics andideas and we have to shape our
(08:03):
better future through that.
And we have to realize thatwhen we introduce a polarizing
idea, that we're going topolarize people and and then the
goal is is to get, as you'regetting, more people on your
side is identify that middle,and each topic is going to slice
people up a little bitdifferent uh, the the nature of
principle.
Jon Kidwell (08:22):
I mean even just decisions.
Hey, we could think of big ones, of like we're going to stop
that service or that product.
We could think of politicallypolarizing things.
But also I mean anyone that'sdone any sort of development in
their team and tried to orderlunch for 50 people.
Somebody is leaving that lunchextremely dissatisfied, right
(08:43):
Like it's just the nature ofmaking a decision and being in
leadership that you will divideand polarize some in an effort
to move and align others.
John Carroll (08:54):
Well, and I think that you know, obviously Well,
and I think that you know,obviously, mature people can
walk away from their unpreferredlunch and be okay, right, sure,
sure.
But obviously there's issuesthat we deal with, especially
when it comes to you know who wecare for, how we care for them,
you know who's invited to becared for.
All that kind of stuff can bereally, really polarizing.
(09:17):
But here's the reality is isthat we're all humans.
None of us have the ability tomeet everyone's needs.
Anyways, at some point you'regoing to run out of time,
capacity, money, intelligence,just whatever those things are.
So you're going to run to anend of it.
(09:37):
And you know, like we say aroundour office all the time, is
that, man, there's 30 things wewish we could be doing well
every single day.
We got the resources to doabout 12 of them and you know we
could.
We could pivot some of thosearound inside that 30 and be
really happy organizationally.
But we've got people in ouroffice that are like, man, this
(09:58):
is what I want to be about.
And we've got other people thatare so mad that we're not being
about something else and it'sall in good, 30 things, but it's
like it doesn't matter.
We can't be about all of them,we've got to be about something.
And so, even as you decide goodthings like that, and so it's a
hard, complex thing and asleaders we have to understand is
that you're just not going toget everybody, and you've got to
(10:21):
do more than just saying it toget the momentum and get the
majority.
Jon Kidwell (10:26):
So that brings us back around to what you said,
which is probably one of thecritical pieces beyond the
acceptance of.
There are just some that areagainst.
But you said earlier there'sextra work we got to do in the
middle right and you just kindof brought back around to that.
So if I'm a leader and I'msitting there looking at my team
and we're going through changemanagement, if we've just made a
(10:49):
big organizational decision, ifI'm looking at clients, if I'm
looking at people that we serveon the positive and the negative
that are kind of the detractorsand the supporters, how do I
engage in some of that hard work, the extra work, as you said,
in that middle?
Third, Right.
John Carroll (11:10):
So this is what's so important you know, when you
understand.
And again, a lot of timesyou're not voting.
People are voting a lot oftimes not because they're
actually putting a placard up oractually clicking a button.
They're voting with theirattitude, they're voting with
their work ethic, they're votingwith their customer base,
they're voting with theirparticipation, and so you start
(11:31):
to see some of that engagement.
But the law of the thirdsbasically says is that, no
matter what you're doing youshould think about it this way
is that a third of the peopleare pumped about it, and a third
of people, even if they'redoing it, they're probably not
pumped about it, right, and andthat could be just because of
their personality or timing orsomething that's out of your
control.
What you've got to understandis that the people in the middle
(11:52):
that are either participatingin some sort of way or you're
trying to win over or trying towhatever, is that they're more
inclined to say no.
Unless you do the work to getthem to say yes and that's where
that effort is is that we sayin our office a confused mind
says no, and so confusiondoesn't have to be that they're
(12:16):
confused why it matters.
They're just confused on how itshould happen, right, and so
they could have the why, butthey don't know how, and so
they're going to say no.
Or they don't know what'sactually going on, and so maybe
they heard your why, or maybethey just heard your what, but
they don't know why.
Right, and even they have gotexplained how it's going to work
(12:39):
, but they haven't heard the why.
If they're confused on any oneof those why, how or what
they're a confused mind going tosay no.
And as a leader, that's when youlose momentum, that's when you
lose the tipping point, energywhere you can get high quality
work and accomplishment, andwherever that is.
You know organizationally, andso you know, as you go into
(13:03):
those individual orgs, thoseindividual groups inside, that,
as you start figuring outpersonality based, you know I've
got a staff of 20.
So, about on anything anddifferent kinds of topics, I
know them well enough to knowwho I need to pull in and have
some one-on-ones with and whoneeds to hear when I say
(13:23):
something that maybe a staffgathering and be like, hey, I'm
doing this, but I want to invitesome of you all to hear you
know where we are able to gothrough some deeper Q&A on this
at this other session, at thisother time.
Anybody wants to come.
And then I might say to adirector hey, your team needs to
make sure that they're there,right Cause I know that they're
in the process or pulling thosepeople one-on-one and having
that conversation going.
Hey, when I I'm going to makean announcement tomorrow, and I
(13:45):
think I think you're going to belikely, you know, I know you
well and I want to say thatwhatever now, with 20 people,
that's possible 20,000 people or2000 people or even 200 person
congregation, that's really hardand that's what you know like,
let's just say, like a pastor.
A pastor says he has 300 peoplein congregation.
Only 120 people are showing up.
(14:05):
That's usually that.
Third.
You know what I'm saying.
They're showing up being a partof it, and so you know, where
are you getting those otherpeople to be engaged in that
space?
And so you start to.
If you start to see it that wayand just go ahead and go and
decide it's that way, then youstart making effort in a little
bit extra and different way andyou start to categorize people a
little bit.
(14:25):
And when you find that big hard, no is that you don't have to
go be persuasive with thatperson.
If you find yourself trying tobe persuasive, you're probably
trying to convert a no to a yes.
But if you find yourself tryingto give clarity, if you find
yourself trying to eliminateconfusion, you're taking
somebody from the middle tobring him over with you.
Jon Kidwell (14:46):
That's really powerful and I accept the
coaching that you just gave mearound the.
It's not about persuading no'sto yeses and if you find
yourself in that, check it.
But if you are trying toprovide clarity to, almost like
a seeking interested individualthat's there wanting to hear it
(15:07):
out, not just be a curmudgeon orargue, right, your role is
clarity, right?
Is that what you're saying?
John Carroll (15:16):
Yeah, for sure, and I think that when you make
clarity your goal, what happensis people feel empowered to make
their own yes, instead offorced into what they think
you're making them do.
Right, and that's what we sayall the time is, we shouldn't
have to persuade anybody or beganyone or, you know, or just
(15:39):
yank somebody over from one sideto the other.
It's just that we keep assumingthat there's some angle that
they're confused on, oftenaround the why, how or what.
Investigate that obviouslyindividually, or even just think
(15:59):
about that kind of in a biggergroup form is if you're not
getting enough yes, if you'renot getting enough momentum, you
need to assume that your crowdis either one, two or all three
confused around why, how or what, and then you start
communicating to them in variousdifferent ways how to be able
to you know where the clarity isaround that and then making
sure that they've heard it.
Jon Kidwell (16:20):
So the extra work also kind of demands more time,
more attention, all of what yousaid there.
I can see that and I still wantto do it, and it's super clear
on why, how, what, and I'mguessing, and maybe there's some
of this that also happens.
And I'm guessing, and maybethere's some of this that also
(16:41):
happens.
I get drawn into those outside,peripheral, outlier places
because, let's be real, like atthe ones that are for me, like
it feels good, right, likethey're just charging with me,
and the ones that are againstseem to make a lot of noise and
really demand my emotionalattention.
And so if everything's gettingsucked up out there, like how do
(17:02):
I get into the middle?
What do I do?
If I'm a leader that's juststuck on those outsides?
And I hear you and I want to beable to activate the ambivalent
middle.
John Carroll (17:13):
Yeah.
So I think you know, one ofthose ways of getting out of the
middle is really checking yourego, um, because that'll help
you identify where you're at.
You know, um, and I think thatif you find yourself, you know
um, feeling, you know, one ofthe things is with the no is
(17:34):
actually where you feel fear.
You know, with the yeses iswhere you actually you feel
really glad, right, you feelglad, you feel joy.
You know that's all happeningwith over here.
So if you're feeling glad andjoy with everybody you're
talking to and you don'tactually have the momentum and
the energy and all that kind ofstuff, you're like man, am I
(17:55):
talking to everybody here?
Like you know, you're likewhatever.
And if you feel fear, fear isactually where you feel the,
where you feel the with the noseis because in that fear is
where you take, is where you'restarting to feel anxiety.
You start trying to exhibitcontrol around them.
Well, well, if you don't agreewith me, I won't let you
whatever, right.
And then you're like oh, thesepeople always drive me so crazy,
(18:23):
right.
Your rage starts coming out andit's courageous to go talk to
people who completely disagreewith you and I would say is
instead of trying to persuadethem, what you have to go do,
especially if you're leading agroup of people to ongoing
relationship and they don'tagree with you.
You're the leader, you're takingthem, whether or not they agree
with you or not.
Now they may walk out the dooror go somewhere else.
When you go over there, whatyou do is is you have to go, say
hey, I realize we don't agree,I want to understand why.
(18:45):
And so you, just you geteducated, because you might be
wrong.
Right, and leaders have beenwrong before.
I don't know.
It's breaking news, right?
Jon Kidwell (18:53):
here on this story but, wrong before.
John Carroll (18:56):
And so a lot of times you might be like, oh my
gosh, that is a big issue.
I've never thought about itbefore.
So, like making sure they feelheard, because they're okay with
disagreeing if they feel heard,and so I think, going over
there and making sure you're nottrying to you know you're not
plot twisting or that kind ofstuff and then when you're going
into this group in the middle,you're finding yourself really
(19:18):
curious, you know, and I'd sayis using curiosity as to what
have they heard, what do theyunderstand and where?
Where is that really fitting in?
And when your curiosity isturned on more than your fear
right, like I was telling you tocircumvent your fear over here
with the nose with somecuriosity, but really more of
(19:43):
that's really about respect.
You're kind of taking courageand respect to the people.
You fear the no and you're justsaying hey, I honor your no, I
honor that we disagree, tell mewhatever.
That's where you're takingcourage.
But curiosity is where you'retaking the middle of trying to
find people when you're incurious conversations.
If they're not asking you goodquestions, then you're taking
the middle of trying to findpeople when you're in curious
conversations.
If they're not asking you goodquestions, then you're not
opening them up as a leader, orif they don't feel like they've
got a floor in that space orthey're so oblivious to what's
(20:06):
going on and that can alsohappen there in the middle is
that they don't even realizethey're not paying attention.
We see that happen in apolitical landscape all the time
.
People aren't watching the news, they don't know what's going
on, they don't know anythingabout what's happening, and so
you've got to inform them insome sort of way to be able to
(20:27):
bring some interest into thatspace.
And then you got to empowerother leaders to be able to do
that.
So for me, I'm empowering mydirectors, who are fit all
across the spectrum already, andmaking sure that they are
actually figuring this out,because you get a director who's
overseeing a bunch of peoplewho are yeses but they're a no
man that can create problems,you know.
Or they're overseeing a bunchof people who are yeses but
(20:48):
they're confused in the middle,you know.
And so you've got to, you know,start close.
You know, aim small, miss small, try to make sure they're all
with you in that space, and thenthey're bringing that to their
own people and creatingenvironments inside their
pockets where they can do that,and they can elevate that up to
you and you can learn over andover again as an organizational
(21:10):
leader.
Jon Kidwell (21:12):
Man, everything that you were saying drove back
in my brain to the idea ofactively listening.
Right, that there is anengagement, there is an active
listening, which we've talkedabout here before and that it is
I am both listening and sharingto drive towards a deeper
understanding, and that when wedo that, that's one of the best
(21:35):
ways that we can engage all ofthose thirds, if you will.
John Carroll (21:40):
Right, right.
But I think that's where, whenyour leaders start off with it,
just because you said it doesn'tmean they've all heard it, and
just because people are doing itdoesn't mean they all agree.
And I think that, as a leader,when you can just assume that
those two things are usuallyalways true not everybody heard
it and not people are doing itdoesn't mean they all agree.
And I think that, as a leader,when you can just assume that
those two things are usuallyalways true not everybody heard
(22:01):
it and not everyone agrees andthen you've got to at some point
go like hey, my goal isn't 100%agreement, you know, it's just
making sure that if they'resaying no to it, that we both
know why they're saying no to it.
You know that's OK.
And then we don't leave peopleconfused in the middle, because
the confused people in themiddle are actually really,
(22:23):
really hard to actually manage,they're really hard to maximize
and they're really hard topredict, because they get really
lost in the mission becausethey get really lost in the
mission.
Jon Kidwell (22:33):
Yeah, it's so, so true and powerful.
And so many of us, as middlemanagers and I kind of tell
everybody like listen, everysingle one of us is a middle
manager We've either got a board, we've got clients, we've got
whatever.
Doesn't matter if you're theone in charge, you're a middle
manager, we all are.
And that confusion ofexpectations, of what's required
(22:55):
, of what do people need,whatever it might be, that is
the piece that will trip all ofus up.
A confused mind says no.
John Carroll (23:08):
Confusion is not a natural.
Yes, right, that's ignoranceand folly, but humans are.
We were wired and designed toactually have fear, right, and
so confusion, it leads towardsfear, and so that's going to
(23:28):
lead towards all sorts of no,that's how we've survived as
humans, right?
But yeah, confused mind says no.
And so, you know, in my oldpastor you say you know, a fog,
a mist in the pulpit is a fog inthe pews, yeah, oh, man, that's
so true for leaders, right?
Jon Kidwell (23:47):
If it's foggy in your brain, you better expect
storms out in the organization.
Man, John, this has been sogood as we keep on moving.
A couple of things that Ithought of is, man, whenever we
can choose not to be confused,that as leaders, we can choose
not to be confused and know thatwe got to engage and help
(24:07):
people with the why, the whatand the how, and if we are in
that, perhaps we have aresponsibility to choose not to
be confused and to ask for whatwe need and to engage as well,
and that if we do that, if weovercome confusion, get clarity
and keep in mind those law ofthe thirds, we might be able to
work pretty effectively together.
John Carroll (24:29):
Man.
So true, and I think, as you,you as leaders, overcoming that
confusion and making people feelless confused, like, just like
when you said active listening,and then actively saying back
what you heard to them, and thenyou can splice the differences.
Oh, I'm hearing you say thisand so you think that we're
(24:51):
going this, but i'm'm actuallytrying to accomplish this.
Do you see how that's different, like is that sound different
to you?
Or because it feels differentto me?
And I think that when I can saythat, then that person feels
they're able to expressthemselves, they were understood
and now they can see thedifferences.
And then we can agree ordisagree, and that can still
fall into the group.
(25:12):
That's not going to agree withme, right, but at least now
we're all and there's noconfusion.
You know, and I think that thatthat becomes.
You know, if you approach thatas your enemies, the no's aren't
your enemies, like theconfusion is your enemy.
It.
Jon Kidwell (25:29):
That's right, oh, so so good, john, you have given
us a lesson in leading welltoday, and I ask everybody that
comes on the show and so youdon't get out of it either, just
because you have a wonderfulname, but what does it mean to
you to lead well?
John Carroll (25:46):
Man.
So I define leadership astaking initiative for the
benefit of others.
Um, I love the word taking, um,I go, I go and take, uh, and I
actively take the initiative.
Um, but, um, but man, theleading piece is for the benefit
(26:06):
of others.
Um, you know, I've I feel likeyou know, even in saying that I
try to live and embody that.
But I would be totally ignorantto not confess that I feel like
I've grown more and benefitedmore from actually leading than
probably anyone I've ever led.
But the whole hope is is toactually benefit others in that
(26:31):
process whole hope is is toactually benefit others in that
process.
Jon Kidwell (26:36):
Yeah Well, I love it.
That is also the definition ofservice, and we're a big fan of
servant leadership, and that isto act for the benefit of the
object, and that could be aperson, could be an organization
, could be something.
So I love it.
Thank you for sharing that,john.
Everybody John Carroll is onLinkedIn.
We'll put a link in the shownotes.
You can check out more aboutcity leadership,
cityleadershiporg especially ifyou are in that Memphis area.
(26:57):
Connect with them and, john,thank you so much for being here
today For everybody else.
Be well, god bless and lead on.
Man, that was great A fist bumpair five something right the way
coming across.
Man, that was so good, that wasreally great, you uh pulled
(27:21):
more out of me uh.
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