Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Everything happens at the speedof trust, doesn't it?
Everything moves at the speed oftrust if I lose faith in the
product, I'm not buying itanymore.
If I've ordered it, on Amazonand I get it, and it's just not
a good product then I'm gonnavery quickly go to somebody else
who I think has a better productthan you, and you've lost my
trust.
And then the chances are ofgetting it back is in incredibly
(00:20):
difficult.
Hello, welcome to the Learningto Lead Show.
I'm your host, Mark Cundiff, andtoday we're going to dive into
part two of my conversation withSteve Veale Steve Veale is
executive pastor of WestridgeChurch in Dallas, Georgia, in
the northwest part of Atlantawhere he's been for the last 28
years.
(00:40):
We are going to dive into moreconversations about trust.
Leadership and how to build astrong team.
If you mess the first part ofthis interview, make sure you go
back and listen to the previousepisode.
To go with that theme of trust,I'd like to offer my book the
Trust Gap as a free offering toyou to help you dive into how
(01:05):
trust can help build yourleadership strength and.
Accelerate your team success.
As Steve said in the openinghere, the speed of trust
improves everything in yourorganization.
So go to the show notes and lookfor the link where you can get
the book, the Trust Gap, alittle short ebook that will
help you understand how buildingstronger trust in your
(01:28):
organization can drive results,accelerate performance, and
enhance your leadershipinfluence across your
organization.
And now we're gonna dive intopart two of my conversation with
Steve Veale I'd like you tobridge for the person that's
sitting out there and is resultsdriven, a personality.
And says, man, I don't have timefor all this soft stuff, this
(01:51):
culture stuff, I'm all aboutresults.
You and Brian and the otherleaders that have led this
church are very resultsoriented.
Very driven.
You've had BAG goals, for thebusiness people out there.
And y'all have incorporated alot of those business principles
into.
The way you run thatorganization to drive it to be
(02:14):
successful.
So bridge that for people thatwe're not all about just having
a good time and feeling good.
The results are the reason.
For culture..
I mean it, that's, at the end ofthe day we, our mission is,
which would be our ultimateresult, is to see people, to
become fully devoted followersof Christ.
That's why we're here.
Is to do that.
I can't do that.
(02:35):
We're a team member drivenorganization, so I can do it
with a few, but I can't do itwith the 10,000 or more.
Who would call Westridge theirhome?
We had over 10,000 people here afew weeks ago for Easter on our
campus.
Plus everybody that didn't makeit, that we're watching online.
I don't even remember what thatnumber was.
But that's a lot of people, andand a little old Pauling County.
(02:58):
We've got things that we dopoorly and.
And things that we, that we'rejust not very good at and
immature at, and, all thoseother things.
But at the end of the day, ourmission is to is to reach north
west Atlanta for Christ to seepeople devoted to Christ and
living that out wherever theylive, work and play.
Every Monday morning we'relooking at.
(03:19):
We're evaluating, the day andthe week before.
We're looking at, we're lookingat our giving.
We're looking at our attendance.
We're looking at the number ofpeople who were in groups, we're
looking at the number of peoplewho served.
All of the metrics we're lookingat all of those things, and
we're talking about it everyweek.
Because that's, that is anindicator of our, of the success
(03:41):
for what we believe God hascalled us to do.
Where I think that connects toculture is the fact that I would
say in the non-profit world,it's the only way you can get
results.
But I would say that even in thefor-profit world, it is still
the best way to get resultsbecause you're getting buy-in.
(04:01):
Who wouldn't want buy-in fromtheir employees?.
Who wouldn't want somebody.
Who is working on the productionline to really care about, to
ultimately care about theorganization to feel as though
they're not just a number,they're a name, and that they're
gonna show up and they're notgonna call off and lie about it
(04:25):
because this is their company,it's never wrong to invest in
your people, ever.
And I think that there areorganizations, and I know it's
not the, the biggestorganization, but man, again I
just come back to Chick-fil-A.
Yes.
I wanna say they're like, whatare they, like 13 billion,
billion?
Pretty big organization.
They are.
And they are tenacious aboutculture, tenacious about it,
(04:48):
what is it they say?
Raving fans.
Is their thing.
What's really so inspiring aboutthem is the they have taken so
much of their profits..
I believe that they arecompletely debt-free as a
business I think so.
So they are virtually, from whatI understand, virtually
recession proof because they canoperate so incredibly lean that
(05:11):
even like COVID, i'm not surewhat result it had on them, but
I didn't see a single sourceclose.
Yeah, if anything, I just sawit, expand even more.
And what I was wanting to say isthe fact that this whole Win
shape organization that I get achance to see and be a part of
in different ways.
They are investing a ton ofmoney into things that gain them
(05:32):
nothing as an organization otherthan investment in the lives of
other people does it.
Bring value to them in the longrun.
Of course it does.
Yeah.
But they are seeing theirinfluence way beyond themselves
and out into the world.
But I think it's connected.
I.
I think when you operate andlead like that, I think that it
(05:55):
makes everybody, who's facingoutward, start turning around
and facing, and facing inwardand looking and caring.
And I just don't think thatthere's a substitute, for that.
I don't care what kind ofbusiness organization you've
got.
That's some great stuff.
One of the things I thinksometimes when we look, when I
think the word nonprofit reallya lot of times isn't accurate
(06:16):
because if you're not profitablefrom the standpoint of having
enough revenue to come in tocontinue to run your operation,
then you're gonna go out.
And so you were talking aboutvolunteers there for time, but
also.
People investing in what you'redoing.
And so there has to be acredibility there, a trust there
that like you've built up over28 years, but it can be gone in
(06:39):
a minute what's so powerfulabout what you have it's the
talk about the trust aspect.
Everything happens at the speedof trust, doesn't it?
Everything moves at the speed oftrust and again I'm not the
for-profit guy.
You would be much more thanthat, but I think, if I don't,
if I lose faith in the product,I'm not buying it anymore.
(06:59):
If I've ordered it, on Amazonand I get it, and it's just not
a good product then I'm gonnavery quickly go to somebody else
who I think has a better productthan you, and you've lost my
trust.
And then the chances are ofgetting it back is in incredibly
difficult.
In the nonprofit world maybeit's an all of it, man you've
gotta, you gotta believe whatyou're saying.
You've gotta, you've gotta,you've gotta live out the, what
(07:22):
you're what you're telling otherpeople to live out, and you
gotta lead from a place of ofexperience yourself and what
you're asking them to do.
I think that is a spiritualthing.
In other words, I can't leadwhere I won't go, but I also
think it's an organizationalthing.
I can't say one thing and doanother at any level, I have to
help our leaders see, becausesometimes we'll have a person in
(07:44):
leadership on our staff they'remore of a shepherd at heart than
a leader.
So they have the hardest timegetting themselves outta the
weeds and leading at a higherlevel.
They feel a sense of guilt, andpart of my job with them is to
help them trust their gift., Andtheir role.
You do what only you can doyou'll build trust with people.
(08:06):
Because there are things thatthey need you to do that they
can't do.
And they need you to do it.
And I think building trust likethat all the way down the
organization is really key andreally important.
And I think no matter whatorganization you've got, if you
don't have trust, then you areworking exponentially harder to
get anywhere.
That's good.
I wanna jump into something thatyou just brought up there about
(08:28):
the different strengths andweaknesses that we all have.
And I know you went throughLencioni's book on working
types, and I know you've beenthrough some, StrengthFinders
and stuff and talk about theimportance of not having a bunch
of Steve v's on your team, butthat you have people that.
Talk about how you approachthat.
It's the beauty of the body,right?
(08:49):
The scripture calls it the bodyof Christ, and it says, does the
ear say the eye?
I don't need you.
Or, or the, I say to the earthat I don't need you, whatever
it is.
Can't remember exactly how thescripture says, but but that's
the principle of it that everypart of the body works together
so that the body stays healthyand strong.
And so I think that in, inministry or in life or in
(09:11):
leadership.
You need people of all types.
I think you need those who areintroverted because I think that
they see and feel and respondwith the way that an introvert
would.
Then you have your ex.
Extroverts and you need thembecause they're gonna be in, in
your organization, they're gonnaplay a specific role.
I think, it's really valuable tohave female leadership at all,
all various levels becausethey're gonna bring perspective.
(09:34):
And, but I also think you need,you need the dudes too, to bring
their perspective.
Yeah.
I just think that you everybodyis going to speak into, and
gonna bring their value of what,not only what they do but their
perspective that they have.
That is gonna be essentially inmany ways a blind spot for you.
You have to trust and so on.
(09:54):
On our lead team, I.
Just recently, I shifted somethings around and brought some
people who you wouldn't think ofthem as and they don't have the
responsibility of of leadershipover a lot of people.
But they had a perspective thatI felt like I.
We didn't have on the teambecause everybody else was those
PE were those people.
(10:15):
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yes it does.
So I needed to hear when we'reeval,'cause remember we said we,
every week we come and we, whenwe gather together, we're
evaluating and wrestling withwhat, how it worked and what
didn't work and all those otherthings.
And if we have all of these typeA leaders, who are just like,
charge the hill.
Charge the hill.
Charge the hill, yeah.
We need some people who arelike, hang on.
Wait just a minute and let'sslow down and did you ever think
(10:38):
about this and'cause none of uswould've, all of us type A
people would not have thoughtthat way.
I just think it's, and by theway, that's also how you gain
trust.
Is when you put different peopleof all different types in
leadership and you guys canwork, figure out how to work as
a team, even though you thinkvery differently I think that
builds trust across theorganization because they see
(11:01):
that you're purposely puttingsomebody that represents them.
That's really good.
Let's shift over.
We talked about a lot aboutleading the team and the
culture.
Let's talk a little bit aboutself-leadership.
How has Steve.
Transitioned over the last threedecades of moving through
different roles.
'cause you're obviously, and meand you've had a lot of
(11:22):
conversations about leadershipand challenges that we've each
had.
You're not the same person thatyou were then.
And hopefully that's true of allof us as we grow over time, but
that has to be intentional.
So what things have you put intoyour life and what do you seek
out in order?
To continue to grow so that youcan be the kind of leader that
your people need.
If you're not self-lead, thenyou can't lead others.
(11:44):
So talk to us a little bit abouthow you approach that.
We're having this conversationwith a, an executive leader.
Cohort that I was in a couple ofweeks ago, and we're talking
about a practice that each oneof us had that, that we feel
would, has been really valuable.
I'm, I've always been I'm notthe reader.
I should be.
You've always helped me, you'vealways pushed me along in that.
But I listen to the podcast Iread the books, all those
(12:06):
things.
But what has meant a lot to meand really helped me a lot
because if I'm leading from aplace of health.
I'm leading much better than ifI'm leading from a place of hurt
and pain and dysfunction and allof that.
That takes up so much bandwidthemotional bandwidth and mental
(12:27):
bandwidth if I'm dealing withall this stuff.
Versus having, being somewhatfree.
I don't think you ever getcompletely free of it, but when
you're.
You're really free.
And obviously I think having arelationship with God is key.
It is the most important thing,but God also gives us one
another.
And so in the last couple ofyears, I've developed a
relationship with a guy that's,almost 20 years my elder.
(12:48):
And we talk, there'll be seasonswhen we talk every day, we'll
text and back and forth.
It depends on what he's goingthrough and what I'm going
through.
I minister to him, but the pointof this relationship is really
him ministering to me, himreally mentoring me.
But I try to really reciprocateby really caring about him and
loving him and being mindful ofwhat he's experiencing, as a
(13:12):
nearly 80-year-old guy.
And I try to, do that.
But he's got access to me.
And what I mean by that is hecan ask any question if he
senses that there's something.
But I also feel like I can tellhim anything.
I would say he's, in one regard,he's a safe place for me.
(13:32):
I.
He is a conduit of truth.
What I've always loved aboutwhat I feel like every leader
needs is a conduit of truth.
And that language, I don't evenknow where I heard that.
I heard it years and years ago,but what I love about that
language is a conduit protectswhat's flowing through it,
right?
So if you've got, if you're ifyou don't have, if that conduit
(13:53):
can't protect what's runningthrough it, then then you're not
gonna put very much, you're notgonna put anything important
through it.
Yeah, that's right.
You're gonna hold back, so ifit's a family member or a boss
or somebody, like in my case, ifthere's somebody in your church
that you don't feel like you cantr really trust, you're gonna
hold back, from some things thatyou're, that you might say and
process with them because you'rejust afraid of how it could hurt
(14:17):
you if they shared it.
So I would I tell people, andthis is a tricky language, but I
tell people he's a safe place.
But he's not a safe place.
And what I mean by that, so he'ssafe as far as I can tell him
anything.
But where he's not safe is he'snot gonna agree.
With everything that I say andjust tell me that I'm okay and
(14:38):
that I'm a good boy and you knowthat I'm leading well and that
I've, treated my family right.
And I've, been the lovinghusband that I should be.
He's not safe in that way.
In other words.
In other words he has thefreedom and he takes it to tell
me the hard thing that's gonnahurt.
It's, and that's why I say it,it's not safe.
'cause because he can bring mesome pain, yeah.
In that moment.
In that moment, he, hisdiscipline, his words of
(15:01):
correction can hurt and sting.
And but I've given him that,that permission, to do that.
And that has been reallyvaluable to me.
'cause I don't know that I needas much.
I need help.
I don't know if I need as muchhelp in knowing what to do to
steward the vision.
(15:22):
I don't think that's, at leastat my stage in life I don't feel
like that's the biggest questionI have in life.
It's runs a whole lot deeperthan that.
It's about, I'm in that I'm justreally getting into that legacy
season.
You, I'll be 60.
I'll be 60 this year.
Yeah.
I was, he, I was listening toCrawford Leitz, and I hope I can
remember this.
And he was saying that, from 20to 40, those are your years of
(15:44):
foundation.
And then 40 to 60 is your yearsof production.
It's when you can produce themost.
You have the most you had themost of both energy and
experience at the same time.
I'm about to get where I've gotthe experience, but I don't have
the energy.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of fears that,you know, for senior leaders
(16:06):
like myself, going into thatlegacy, fears of being
irrelevant, not having theenergy, feeling tired a lot
faster than I ever used to,wondering if man is what I'm
doing.
Really worth it.
So I just think that at, in mystage of life there's a lot more
going on emotionally and,dealing with that than there is,
(16:29):
than what I don't know how to doanything, deal Now.
I have, I think I could make agreat case, at least in my own
mind for guys in their twentiesand thirties.
To have a relationship like thisfor possibly different reasons.
Yes.
But boy, I think, man if Iwould've had a relationship like
this when I was, 25 or 30, gosh,what a difference.
Would've saved myself and a lotof people around me and my wife.
(16:53):
Yeah.
A lot of pain, I think.
Yeah.
I really admire you being sotransparent there, because that,
to have that type ofrelationship, one requires
humility.
And you have to humble yourselfto learn from somebody else and
to take those hard to listen tothose hard truths.
And so I think that's a greatlesson for all of us as leaders,
(17:15):
is that, if we're going to be agreat leader, if we're going to
move.
Forward and grow.
We've gotta be humble andcurious about what we don't know
and be willing to take on newthings.
Can I just interject one morething into that?
For anybody that might belistening and wondering about
this?
Is that I had to seek that outand what I mean by I had to seek
(17:35):
it out is I tried it with acouple of other people that
didn't really work and lemmetell you how it didn't work., I
didn't feel like they wereasking me the hard questions.
Yeah.
And I didn't, I was strugglingto have the courage to say the
final 5%.
This is what I'm really dealingwith.
This is what I'm really feeling,yeah.
(17:56):
And I think that they were justafraid of hurting me, afraid of,
of challenging me at that level.
And so it just became, it justwasn't good.
It wasn't great.
Yeah.
And so I went through a coupleof different relationships and I
was really praying for God togive me, because.
Because you know that's just notanybody.
No.
That's gotta be a very specialperson.
(18:18):
And so I think a lot of guysdon't have that or women don't
have that because they can'tthink of who would fit that.
And I'm just saying first ofall, if you're a man of faith or
woman of faith, you gotta prayfor, you gotta ask the Lord for
it.
Yeah.
Ask God to give it to you.
He wants it for you more thanyou want it for you.
And then I would say is betenacious.
Don't stop.
Don't give up.
Un until you find thatrelationship, they're out there.
(18:41):
You just have to be willing todo the tenacious thing and the
hard work to find it.
Man.
I'm glad you added that becauseso many times we'll go and we'll
have a mentor or a coach and itjust doesn't work.
And so we say that's not for me.
But like you said, it's like alot of different things.
You have to try like the wordyou used there, be tenacious.
You have to seek that out and beintentional if you really want
(19:05):
to have the right person.
Look how many.
Golf coaches that Tigers had andlook at, Jordan went through
different personal coaches andstuff, they kept seeking to find
the right person that was gonnapush their buttons to, to make
them successful.
Those are things that we have todo as well.
If we, you might need adifferent person in a different
season.
Yes.
Different season.
Yes.
(19:25):
As we wrap up today, is there aparting shot a recommendation
that you would like to justleave with the folks that are
listening today that's, thatstayed with us through this, to
this point?
I was thinking about this whenyou had I knew we were gonna
talk about books.
'Cause you're such a book guyand I love that.
You've always been challengingme on that.
And I remember one of the firstbooks that you and I discussed
(19:45):
together was Good to Great.
Jim Cols the Old Standard,right?
Yes.
And I would just say if anybodyhasn't read that book, who's in
leadership, they owe it tothemselves to do that.
I have come back to that book somany times in conversations
with.
Young leaders or youngerleaders, so many times.
Here's an example.
I can't remember.
Is it the you might remember it.
(20:07):
The something of the flywheelthe tyranny of the fly.
The flywheel effect.
The flywheel effect.
Is that what he called it?
The flywheel effect?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it was just I put it in myown words, but essentially that,
you know what you're gonna putup, you're gonna put in a ton of
work on the front end.
But if you do the right thing inthe right way, then all you've
gotta do is just come back andvisit occasionally and just make
(20:27):
sure that it's staying oncourse.
And all that momentum will takeyou places with little effort.
And so anyway, I think that's agreat, there, there's so many
principles I.
Pulled outta that book.
So I just think that's a greatbook.
If you're a person of faith,then I would say the Awe of God
is a very challenging book byJohn Bevere super challenging
(20:48):
book.
A good thing for somebody, Ithink to work through privately
and personally is the Secrets ofthe Secret Place by Bob Sorge,,
his last name's spelledS-O-R-G-E.
It's just a daily devotion time,but it will challenge you at the
depths that he goes and takesyou to at least for me.
And those that I've gone throughit with, it's challenged all of
(21:11):
us.
To experience God at the kind oflevels that he's taken you to?
I appreciate your time.
This has been gold.
There's a lot of differentthings that you've shared with
us from culture toself-leadership, to the person's
relationship with God.
All those different aspects playinto us moving from being a good
leader to a great leader.
And I appreciate your timetoday, Steve.
(21:31):
Absolutely.
Mark, thank you so much.
Appreciate what you're doing forus leaders.
Thank you for joining theLearning to Lead Show.
We got some great content fromSteve Veale on how to develop a
team, how to build trust, how todevelop influence with your
organization, and some reallygood tips on how to.
Work with volunteers in yourorganization.
If you're working in anonprofit, make sure that you
(21:55):
download our leader notes.
It will give you a summary ofall the topics that we
discussed.
It will also give you the bookrecommendations that we have
with links to go and get thoseif you're interested.
The links to get the leadernotes is in the show notes of
this episode, so make sure youclick on that, go and get the
leader notes so that you haveall the content that we
(22:17):
discussed today.
Make sure if you haven'tlistened to the first episode,
that you go back and listen soyou can get the full context of
everything we've talked about.
If you got value from this,please share with a friend.
Please subscribe, and then alsogo to your favorite podcast
player and give us a five ratingso we can help spread the word
about the Learning to Lead.
Show to the people out there whohaven't heard of us yet.
(22:40):
Thanks for joining The Learningthe Lead Show.